Mini-Ep 489: Your Whole Messy Self Is Welcome Here

Mini-Episodes
Written By Forever 35 Podcast

Doree and Elise have a few updates for the show (in case you missed them in the newsletter!). Then they hear from listeners about taking care of yourself while working through a spouse’s addiction treatment and how to help a child navigate the confusing time of puberty, and then they respond to a listener’s question about good novels about the tech industry.

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Transcript

 

This episode transcript is AI generated.

Doree Shafrir (00:10): Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.

Elise Hu (00:18): And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Doree Shafrir (00:21): And this is a mini episode where we hear from you, we share your comments and your thoughts and we answer your questions to the best of our ability. But please remember, we are not experts. We are podcast hosts and we always encourage you to seek support first and foremost from a medical and or mental health professional as needed.

Elise Hu (00:39): Is this our second to the last mini app that we're doing at a regular weekly cadence?

Doree Shafrir (00:45): It is Elise. Wow.

Elise Hu (00:46): It is

Doree Shafrir (00:47): Indeed.

Elise Hu (00:48): Okay. So for listeners who have missed this announcement in previous episodes, we in May are going to once weekly shows that are going to alternate between a standard catch up and interview format and the mini format, which we will now rename something like listener mailbag or

Doree Shafrir (01:12): Feedback. Well, and they're also going to be longer, so they're not going to be mini episodes anymore. That's why we are not calling them mini episodes. So the idea is that going to every two weeks with these listener feedback episodes, that they'll be a little more robust. And yeah, we're excited about it. So this

Elise Hu (01:32): Is- We're also going to drop the numbering after a certain number. Oh yeah.

Doree Shafrir (01:38): Yes. We are going to drop the numbering. So just FYI.

Elise Hu (01:43): Yeah. So the feedback on that is, so we went to our network ACAST. Y'all probably are familiar with ACAST and asked them which day of the week would be a good day for us to drop our new once weekly episodes. And of course for Patreon subscribers, casual chats stay on Fridays and they're still the monthly pop culture chats. So we will see you on our, or you will hear from us on our normal days for the Patreon extras. But we asked them and they were like, "You know what? " And this was kind of a side finding, I guess, because it seemed like it was pretty even like Mondays or Wednesdays. And so ultimately I think we decided to keep it to once a week on Mondays because that's what the listener community wanted. But they were like, "One thing that could get in the way of new listeners coming to Forever35 and making it part of their listening habits are the numbered episodes because the number of episodes is now climbed into, I don't know- The

Doree Shafrir (02:48): Hundreds.

Elise Hu (02:49): Like deep in the hundreds. Yeah. Something. And so that could be a barrier to entry. So now we're just going to name the episodes, whatever the topics are, and then hopefully people can find us who haven't gotten to get on the Forever 35 train yet.

Doree Shafrir (03:06): Yeah. So yeah, just wanted to keep everyone in the loop. Elise, how are you?

Elise Hu (03:13): Very overwhelmed because I wasn't really on a vacation. I was working these crazy 12 hour days and then there's parties and dinners every night. I got into the elevator at one point in the middle of the afternoon because I had some downtime, I think. And I get into the elevator with this other guy who's at TED and he was just like, " I have no social battery left. I need to go away. "It's just a lot of people all the time and the ideas, it really is like a workout for your brain. I was interviewing all these brilliant people one after another and it's just like, what am I talking about?

Doree Shafrir (04:00): I feel like a lot of the people there are pretty social and are pretty extroverted. And even for them, it's a lot. It's a lot of interaction.

Elise Hu (04:10): Yeah. And then there's also a lot of options. So after dinner, it's like, " Oh, do you want to go to this party or this party or this other party or karaoke and it's at 11:30 at night and then the sessions start again at 8:30 the next morning and it's just like- Oh my God.

Doree Shafrir (04:25): Oh my God.

Elise Hu (04:25): Okay. This is very intense. I got home kind of late on Friday, but then just in time to be in it with the kids to put them to bed and everything because one of my kids is traveling for a volleyball tournament. So Ava was off with her dad who usually handles the weekends, but because he was traveling with one of them, I had the other two all weekend and all of their activities and what random play dates and driving back and forth and soccer. And so I'm just like, what day is it? Holy crap, it's Monday already. We are recording this on a Monday.

Doree Shafrir (05:00): Yes.

Elise Hu (05:02): And there's just the random detritus of life.

Doree Shafrir (05:08): Of life. Yep.

Elise Hu (05:13): Yeah. And now, I mean, we're just back in the week, so hopefully I just sneak in some time during the week to get caught up because poo boy. But one thing that I think will be a relief is that I don't have travel for a bit. I don't think I'm traveling in May, so I can finally just kind of get set maybe.

Doree Shafrir (05:34): I, on the other hand, am traveling.

Elise Hu (05:37): Yeah. You're leaving soonish.

Doree Shafrir (05:39): Yeah. I'm leaving soonish. Actually, I'm leaving the day that this airs. And we have a new dog sitter.

Elise Hu (05:53): Oh.

Doree Shafrir (05:56): We love our current dog sitter and dog walker, but she has become so successful that she's never available. People book her out so far in advance. I'm like, "We were your

Elise Hu (06:10): OGs." I know. Shouldn't you have priority?

Doree Shafrir (06:13): I've noticed there are some people who they take it as a personal goal to get in Bo's good graces because it takes some work to become a friend of Bo.

Elise Hu (06:29): Right. It becomes a badge of honor.

Doree Shafrir (06:31): Yes, exactly. So Matt has this friend, Kristen, who they have a weekly coffee date every Thursday, and I guess she was like, "I want to meet

Elise Hu (06:45): Beau."

Doree Shafrir (06:46): And Matt was like, "Okay, are you sure?" And she was like, "Yes, I want to do it. " So I don't know, like a week or so ago, we did the whole thing. You got to give him all this cheese. And he barked once at her and then he was like ...

Elise Hu (07:06): Oh.

Doree Shafrir (07:07): It was so fast. Usually it takes a while and he'll bark at them, but no, she has very calm energy and I think he was just like, "Yep, all right.

Elise Hu (07:24): I'm

Doree Shafrir (07:24): Good." And then she was like, "I'll totally watch him." And we were like, "You will?" So she came over again yesterday and he was happy to see her and what a relief. Oh my gosh, what a relief. And also, I just like having someone at the house more than having the house empty and him being at his daycare, which he loves, but it's hard. It's a long time to be away from home. So I'm really happy that that is happening.

Elise Hu (07:56): Yeah. Are you excited?

Doree Shafrir (07:58): I am excited. I'm excited because Henry is so excited.

Elise Hu (08:02): That's great. Does he have a break from school or are y'all just going to pull

Doree Shafrir (08:05): Him up from school? No, we're just going.

Elise Hu (08:06): Okay.

Doree Shafrir (08:07): It's his birthday on Friday, so that was the precipitating reason for the trip. He said, "I want to see my grandparents and go to Disney World." And we were like, "All right, we can probably make this happen." So we're going and he's genuinely really excited. It's really sweet. And he also still kind of believes that the characters are real and like-

Elise Hu (08:34): That's so great. I remember going to Disney World at that age or around that age. I must have been nine, so a little bit older than Henry and having an autograph book and going around and getting the characters to sign my autograph book. And it forms a lot of core memories. It's really sweet. My kids have never been wildly into Disney. My oldest, Ava was, because she was into Disney Junior characters, like Sophia the first up until about maybe ... And the Lion Guard, which is the continuation of the multiverse on Disney Junior. Got it.

Doree Shafrir (09:15): Okay.

Elise Hu (09:16): It's with Kaian who I believe is Simba's son's another generation. Correct me if I'm wrong, listeners.

Doree Shafrir (09:24): I mean, I'm not going to be the one to correct you. I have no idea.

Elise Hu (09:27): But anyway, she was really into all of that. But then the other girls have never been really that into Disney stuff. So I haven't felt the impetus to take them to Disney World. But what's so cool about Disney World is there's so many other parks too in Orlando,

Doree Shafrir (09:44): So

Elise Hu (09:44): You could just make like a whole thing of it.

Doree Shafrir (09:47): It should be good. Elise, before we take a break, let's just remind everyone that they can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com. We still love to get your voicemails, texts, emails, et cetera. We still need them for our listener episodes, so please send them in. Our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. Our Instagram is @Forever35Podcast. We also have our Patreon. If you still want more of us, we will still be doing our weekly casual chats on Fridays and all the other fun stuff that comes with our Patreon, like our semi-monthly newsletter, which you can get at the free level. And then at $5 a month, you get access to our casual chat, which is now on video. We also do live casual chats every few months. You get access to our community chat.

(10:45):

And then at $10 a month, we have ad free episodes and a shout out on the podcast each and every month. So there's a lot of good stuff over there. Head over to patreon.com/forever35 to check it all out and shop our favorite products at shopmy.us/forever35. And then after the break, we have a couple of big questions, kind of serious questions from listeners. So we will get to those in a couple minutes. We'll be right back.

Elise Hu (11:16): We'll be right back.

Doree Shafrir (11:24): All right. We are back. Elise, do you want to take this first question?

Elise Hu (11:29): Sure. Hi Forever 35. I have one rec and one question for advice from Doree, Elise and my fellow listeners. First, my skincare prod rec. After Kate called in with her CeraVe moisturizer rec, which I sadly have yet to find in a store, I wanted to shout out my CeraVe ride or die. I have been using their skin renewing night cream for several years now and absolutely love it. It's the perfect weight year round. Even in humid Atlanta summers and my skin drinks it up all night. I never feel greasy in the morning and the little tubs last several months. Hard endorse. Now for something more serious. After about seven difficult and painful months, my newly minted husband, we got married last June, just checked himself into rehab for Kratam or Kratam, I'm not sure how it's pronounced, and alcohol addiction last week. I honestly feel more relieved than anything else, even though I'm devastated and so sad about what it took to get him to this point, especially the damage to our relationship.

(12:32):

But he's safe now and being cared for by professionals. My question is for anyone who has gone through something similar in their marriage and how best to take care of myself during the next four to potentially 10 weeks. We don't have kids, so it's just me working full-time in public health, which is its own hellhole right now, and our two dogs. My church has set up a meal train for me, which is awesome, and I've hired a regular dog walker and yard guy to help out, but I'm hoping for more heart and mind related ideas rather than the practicalities. I am in weekly therapy and going to a family support group, love the pod, and how we can all bring our whole messy selves to this community. Thank you. Thank you to our listener for writing in and for sharing this with us. I'm so glad to hear that you're in weekly therapy and you have a support group because one of the first things I was going to suggest is if you haven't been to Al-Anon, which is different than AA, Al-Anon is also part of the family, but it's for loved ones who have been affected by addiction in their lives.

(13:38):

And that can be an awesome support group and there's meetings everywhere in the world, but there's certainly a lot of meetings in Atlanta that you can look up and they're free and they meet in places like rec centers and church basements and same as NA and AA. So that's one resource that you can go to. As for books, because I think you asked for heart and mind related ideas, I remember when I was in what I called the crisis turducken of pandemic year. Turduckens we have in the South. It is a chicken stuffed inside a turkey. It's a turducken. And I felt like when we were in our global pandemic plus the racial reckoning, plus I was in the middle of divorce, it was all one big crisis turducken. I really liked and felt soothed by a book that's just a collection of tweets from the poet, Maggie Smith.

(14:44):

So she later wrote a memoir of her own divorce and her husband, her ex- husband seems like a total asshole, by the way. But the book that I'm talking about came out in 2020 just as I was in the crisis turducken, and it's called Keep Moving: Notes on Loss, Creativity, and Change by Maggie Smith. And it really did start as just tweets that she was putting out that year to help us all. But she, I think unbeknownst to us, was going through her own major rift in her own life, her own crisis. And so like her personal crisis that was in the middle of the global crisis. And obviously I went through the same thing or a similar thing. So I think that's a great one. The other I would recommend is an upcoming Forever 35 guest, Alex L. Alex L has written some beautiful books that are affirming and help us heal.

(15:45):

There's one that's called How We Heal, and the other one's called After the Rain. And those are both very lovely meditations and also actionable. But I would just say overall that in any time of crisis or transition, that it's really important to not be alone or feel alone. Humans are wired to belong, and so ask for help, know who your trusted people are, go to them, and you will find out how much they're your people too, because they're going to show up for you. And then I applaud you again for asking for help here. Addiction is its own particular thing. I have addiction in my life and in my family, and I would say you mentioned four to 10 weeks is kind of the time you want to take care of yourself, but I have also found that it is, depending on the severity of the addiction, it could be for much longer that you're having to be a loved one of somebody who is an addict.

(16:46):

And so you kind of have to strap in for the ride too and think about how long-term it can be and that your husband will likely need support far beyond the amount of time that he's actually just away from you in rehab.

Doree Shafrir (17:02): That's such good advice. I have heard a lot of people recommend the book Codependent No More. So that could also be something that you look at. I know I'm not trying to diagnose anyone. I just know that codependency is often very wrapped up in issues of addiction and being with someone who is an addict. And so that might just be something you want to take a look at. I know it's been really helpful for people I know. Okay. We are going to get to one more question before we take another break. I feel like Elise, this is a question that I think you are probably pretty well qualified to answer. All right. I would like to ask the Forever 35 community for advice on how to navigate my daughter with puberty. She's 10 and a half, and I feel like emotions run high with everything.

(18:01):

I feel she's constantly struggling between wanting to grow up and still wanting to be little. I want to be present and hear for her now through this so we can build a solid relationship for the future years. I also get so nervous about all there is to come. I know by experience how hard it can be, but that might not be her reality. I just want to be prepared for it all. I

Elise Hu (18:22): Don't think there's any way to be prepared for it all. And I think that's what's so lovely about life. It's full of surprises. It's full of surprises. And if you were prepared for it all, that's taking a gamble, that's basically making a bet that you could possibly know all the directions that your life and your daughter's life can take, which is a really limiting kind of possibility, right? Don't you want her to have endless kinds of potential paths? So I don't think I can prepare you for it all, but I will say that, yeah, just like to the last question, it could be longer than the amount of time that she's actually going through puberty itself. There's lots of ups and downs in a relationship. The most helpful thing I think is just to stay steady. They are going through such hormonal changes that their emotions can swing so wildly just within six minutes, much less like six hours.

(19:27):

And so it's really been important for me, I think, and I'm learning as I go along just to react less because there's a lot of times that I can take disrespect or rudeness really personally rather than just understanding that she's in a place where she's just not emotionally equipped. And so seeing the kid as fundamentally good inside, as Dr. Becky talks about, kids are good inside, they're just maybe not prepared or not emotionally equipped for what they're going through. That I think is a really important framework. One-on-one time is so important too. Anytime, I'm talking about my oldest in particular, but anytime we've been really kind of in a period of conflict or a period of just frustration with one another, it's been really healing to just not have any agenda and just go get a boba or watch a movie together, do something that's not tied to school, is not tied to activities, not tied to her feeling like she needs to achieve or anything like that and just have time together.

(20:36):

I think that's really good for our relationship, just driving around and not asking her any questions is often when she shares on her own. So because I'm a very curious person and I can be a lot as a mom because I think that I ask a lot of questions. I ask questions for a living, but then Ava often says, "I feel like you're interrogating me. " When I'm just like, "What's the latest with J-Dog or whatever, because I want to hear what the latest goss is. " And she's like, "God, I don't want to talk to you. " So we've certainly been there.

Doree Shafrir (21:14): I mean, I get that with Henry also, and he's only about to turn seven, so some of it is probably just the nature of being a kid, but yeah, obviously there's a lot of big hormonal changes that are happening.

Elise Hu (21:30): Yeah. I think stay steady, man, and do everything you can to make sure that you're taking good care of yourself because I have found the middle school years to be particularly challenging in a way that's much different than newborn or toddler years are challenging. Newborn and toddler years are challenging, I think, more physically. Your sleep is disrupted, you're having to actually get down in the middle of crevices to pick up crayons or whatever. You're having to get low, you're coming to get high, you're doing a lot of holding and rocking. That's physically challenging. This is a lot more of an obstacle course for your mind and emotions. And so it's cognitively challenging. And I don't know. I mean, I'm no expert in this. I just host a podcast in which I talk to experts about it, but I think the big takeaway from that is that we have to raise ourselves and take good care of ourselves so that we can show up fully for our kids.

(22:36):

So just make sure that you are solid in what your values are as a family and then who you want to be as a parent. I think that is something to revisit again and again.

Doree Shafrir (22:47): I think that's such good advice, Elise. All right. We're going to take a short break and when we get back, we have a really interesting question about the state of the tech world and AI that really got me thinking. So we'll be right back.

Elise Hu (23:02): We'll be right back.

Doree Shafrir (23:10): All right. We are back. Before we get to the discourse about spending less, we have a question about tech discourse and this listener wrote in and said, "Hi, Doree and Elise. I was thinking about the current state of tech discourse and realized I wanted to know what Doree thinks about the moment in culture that led to her book Startup and the AI discourse of the current moment. Any thoughts on or recommendations for contemporary fiction that speaks to the current evolution of tech culture?" Well, it's interesting. I've had several people actually recently say to me that my book was weirdly sort of predictive because the startup in question in my book was something that didn't really exist at the time, but is essentially AI and something that predicts how people feel and offers them solutions of things to do, which I feel like then there were companies that sort of did exactly that and are doing exactly that.

(24:26):

So that's sort of funny. But my book also came out almost 10 years ago, which is crazy. And of course, 10 years is a long time in any sort of industry, but especially in tech. And I feel like things have really changed so much.

(24:45):

I know that ... I feel like there hasn't been a ton of fiction about Silicon Valley. There was Anna Wiener's Uncanny Valley book, but that was a memoir. I mean, that's a great book, not fiction. And then Sarah Wynn Williams book about Facebook, Careless People. Careless

Elise Hu (25:08): People. Yes, so good.

Doree Shafrir (25:10): Yeah. But again, not fiction. I feel like ... I mean, that was sort of the thing when my book came out is it's hard to sort of satirize a culture that satirizes itself. And so I suspect that that is why there is not as much fiction about the tech world as you might think, because the reality is so crazy.

Elise Hu (25:34): Though I will say, I read really beautiful speculative fiction about AI and biomedical technology. It's a short book, but it's really beautiful and it's called Toward Eternity. It's by Anton Her, who a lot of readers might know because he is famous for his literary translation. He translates the works of Hong Kong and Bora Chung and all these huge Korean literary giants, but he wrote his own book and he wrote it all by hand. I actually hosted his event or moderated his event at Romans back when it came out a couple years ago. But the book itself is called Toward Eternity, a novel. The quick first line of the writeup about it is, "In a near future world, a new technological therapy is quickly eradicating cancer. The body cells are entirely replaced with nanites, robot or android cells, which not only cure those afflicted, but leaves them virtually immortal." So that's like one end of it.

(26:38):

But then the other end of it, there's a literary researcher who teaches an AI how to understand poetry and creates this living thinking AI in honor of his husband. And these two creations intersect. So I thought it really made me think about this AI moment that we're in and what AI is capable of and what AI isn't capable of.

Doree Shafrir (27:01): Yes.

Elise Hu (27:03): So that's very thoughtful. And the other writer that I would suggest, because I love all of his thinking on AI, is also a science fiction writer, Ted Chang, C-H-I-A-N-G. And I think he gave some great interviews to Vogue or New Yorker about AI and how he thought about it. My overall thinking on AI, which is very hyped, and especially at the top of my mind, every time I'm a week back from Ted, because it's like every other conversation, is that it seems so hyped to prop up our economy. There's so much just like one company investing in another company, investing in another company that just props up each other's AI supporting data centers or chips or research. Yes,

Doree Shafrir (27:55): That's

Elise Hu (27:55): So interesting. And so there's a lot of concern that the bottom's going to drop out at some point or that our markets tend to be whatever we believe them to be, right? The faith that we place in them. And so yes, this is a transformative technology. Yes, it's going to change and already changing society as we know it. How that pans out in the next few years is going to probably be something that we cannot predict. But one of my greatest concerns about it based on, especially what happened with social media is that we don't think through the ethical implications until way after it's too late and everybody's already adopted it.

Doree Shafrir (28:36): Yep. All right. Such great interesting questions for this week. Thank you all so much and we will talk to you soon.

Elise Hu (28:46): Take care. Talk to you next time. Bye. Bye.

 
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