Episode 398: Have Fun, Live Long with Kara Swisher
Kara Swisher joins the pod to talk about her new show, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever, all about the technology around longevity, the free things (like game nights and legumes) that are also the best things for you, and why she wants you to think about how you can help other people.
Photo Credit: Idris Solomon
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Transcript
The following transcript is AI generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree Shafrir (00:20):
And today we have a very illustrious guest.
Elise Hu (00:26):
You know her name and you probably have heard her shows.
Doree Shafrir (00:30):
Or watched her shows.
Elise Hu (00:31):
Or watched her shows because now she has a new series coming out on CNN. Her name is Kara Swisher. Heard of her? Heard of her?
Doree Shafrir (00:41):
Sometimes people are like ... Do you guys have famous guests on? Sometimes we do. You ever got that question?
Elise Hu (00:48):
Sometimes we do.
Doree Shafrir (00:49):
Yeah. I feel like this is one of those that people will be like, "Oh yeah, I know that person." But she is a fascinating human being and we had a great conversation with her. So stay tuned for that. Elise, what's been going on with you?
Elise Hu (01:05):
I have a couple updates. I am in the middle of a crowdfund campaign, which I've never taken part in before. I've never done a Kickstarter or anything, but I'm learning a lot about it. One is it takes constant vigilance because there's a ticking clock. So by the time this airs, it might be over or nearly over. I have until the end of April to raise enough money, like 80% of our goal for Windswept. This is for the post-production. So we have shot most of Windswept, a documentary about the kids who lost their homes in the fires. And we've shot most of it, but now we're in the assembly stage or what's called post-production. And post-production's very expensive. And so we're raising to help pay for our archive producer who's going to look for all the old social media and news archives and things from certain points in the kids' lives.
(01:58):
And we're also raising to pay for some of the edit. And these platforms work in such a way that you can't keep the money that is pledged unless you hit a certain goal.
Doree Shafrir (02:10):
Oh, yes.
Elise Hu (02:11):
And then I'm taking part in a rally. It's like a crowdfund rally with other AAPI filmmakers. And under the rally rules, not only do you have to fund, you also have to get a certain number of followers. That's free. So we're going to put the link in our show notes for my seed and spark campaign for Windswipe because I could really use y'all, forever 35 listeners, to help join the squad and be a follower of this campaign. I've already hit up Doree and Samee and Sami because everyone counts and we have to hit our follower goal to even be eligible for matching. Thank you for following. And- I think
Doree Shafrir (02:55):
I might've been your first follower.
Elise Hu (02:56):
Oh, very special. Thank you, Doree. You were a pioneer. You started the flood. I did. And I've been using social media that I don't usually use, like LinkedIn. So I'm tapping on the mic on LinkedIn. I'm like, "Is this thing on ... Hello. Hello. I am doing a crowdfund." Yeah. So I've been doing that and it's really kind of fun too. There's like a real community oriented aspect of it. And the most fun that I've had is that for folks who want this incentive and they contribute $50, I'm writing personalized haikus that I'm performing on my Instagram stories.
Doree Shafrir (03:36):
They're very cool.
Elise Hu (03:38):
I am no poet. And so they're kind of like almost comically bad, but people are enjoying that they're comically bad. I got a message from a former Forever 35 guest, Caitlin Thompson, like, "Please don't stop. Just keep these coming." And I'm like, "Well, keep the contributions coming and you'll get more."
Doree Shafrir (04:00):
So funny.
Elise Hu (04:02):
So I'm doing that. And so yes, please join the bandwagon folks. And then the other update, I know some of y'all had written in six months ago when we discovered that I had a little lump in my breast, in my right breast on mammogram, and then I had the ultrasound. And then they're like, "You should get this biopsied." And I got it biopsied and we discovered it was a papilloma. So it was non-cancerous. So I decided not to do anything about it six months ago because I don't want them kind of cutting into me, one, I've never been operated on. And then two, I just didn't want any potential tissue damage or sensitivity damage because where it is, it's like right behind my areola. And so that was my decision at the time. And then it was the six month mark this past week. And so I needed to go back and I go back to do an ultrasound only, no mammogram.
(04:56):
They didn't have to pancake my boob. And immediately the ultrasound tech was like, "Hmm, this is bigger, like the papilloma
Doree Shafrir (05:07):
Itself."
Elise Hu (05:07):
And so then she sends it to a radiologist and he writes back his report, he or she writes back their report. And then I go on to meet with the breast surgeon and both the radiologist and the breast surgeon, the radiologist just on imaging. So this is like some person who's not even in the same building. They wrote, "Surgical excision is recommended." And then my doctor himself is like, "Okay, here's the citch." You have two cysts. One is a cyst and we re-ultrasounded that. The other one we found on biopsy that it's a papilloma, which is non-cancerous or the part that we took is non-cancerous. However, the cyst that was always there that we didn't biopsy, that's the exact same size as six months ago.
(05:54):
But your papilloma, that guy is one millimeter bigger all around. So it was like five by five by five, and now it's six by six by six. And he's like, "That's still tiny, but it is a slight increase." And we get a little uncomfortable about growth. He's like, "Because when we biopsy, we biopsy a part of a hole. And so the part that we biopsied had no cancer cells. But what about the other parts? We don't know. " He's like, "So why don't you just cut it out? " You know what I mean? If you don't want it there possibly growing,
Doree Shafrir (06:28):
You could just cut it
Elise Hu (06:29):
Out.
Doree Shafrir (06:29):
Yeah, just cut it out.
Elise Hu (06:30):
So I'm like, "Oh, I'm still not sure because I don't like medical interventions in general." And then I would have to be under general anesthesia. So folks, that's the update. I'm still thinking about it. I'm going to get another opinion. This being LA, there are many options. And then my cancer researcher friend, Amanda, from trivia, she was like, "Instead of talking to another breast surgeon, I would want to talk to an oncologist and just be like, what are the chances that this is problematic?" Because my objective is not to be operated on. Yeah, of
Doree Shafrir (07:09):
Course.
Elise Hu (07:09):
And so she's like, "You could see if you could get a consult with an oncologist instead of another breast surgeon, but I'll do a few things. I'll do a battery of things." I'm still not too worried though my mom is like, "Why don't you just cut it out? This is so simple if you don't want to.
Doree Shafrir (07:24):
" Right.
Elise Hu (07:27):
Because I'm being stubborn, that's why. So we will see.
Doree Shafrir (07:33):
Well, I hope you feel like you're making the right choice for yourself.
Elise Hu (07:37):
Thank you.
Doree Shafrir (07:38):
Thank you.
Elise Hu (07:38):
Thank you.
Doree Shafrir (07:39):
Whatever you decide. I appreciate it. We will support you.
Elise Hu (07:46):
This segment is supported by our friends at Depop.
Doree Shafrir (07:50):
Elise, I have really been trying to elevate my closet
(07:55):
Get some nicer clothes that suit me and my taste and my body, but I'm also on a budget.
Elise Hu (08:00):
Yep, me too.
Doree Shafrir (08:01):
So I have been loving all of the treasures I've been finding on Depop. And again, this branded segment is brought to you by Depop where we found some of our favorite closet editions from Rare Vintage to the one that got away after it sold out. And I don't think I even told you this, Elise, but I've been on the hunt for a specific shirt, one that I wore in our photo shoot last year, the one that was kind of like patchworky.
Elise Hu (08:29):
Yes, yes. That we did with the seamless backdrop with the white lip.
Doree Shafrir (08:35):
Yep. Yeah. It had been a shirt that I had gotten from Newly, so it was a rented shirt and so I didn't keep it. And I've been searching for it and I found it on Depop. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So that was really cool that I got to find the shirt that I had been like, that was the one that got away. And it came, it was in great condition. It fit perfectly. It was exactly as I remembered it.
(09:06):
So that was really awesome. Have you found anything on Depop lately
Elise Hu (09:09):
That you love? It's so great. Well, I just wanted to yes and you, because Depop is such a great place to go find what you think has gotten away. If you saw something that was for sale a season ago, two seasons ago, and you didn't get it at the time, but would still like to take a shot at getting that pair of jeans or that dress that you wanted, I have been able to find either pre-loved versions of that item or sometimes new with tags. So as you know, I like wearing a lot of reformation, like blouses and dresses. And there was a dress that, I don't know, maybe last year I really liked there that I couldn't afford and I kind of regret that I didn't get.
(09:56):
But this year when I was searching on Depop and I like remembered the name of it, there were several versions of it in different colors available on Depop. And then I didn't have to spend the retail price too. And often a lot of these items are still new with tags. And so it works both ways, not only for us as buyers, but also us as sellers. I have a lot of things that like just didn't fit me right and I didn't return them or I bought it and I forgot about it and now I'm not into it and then I will sell because I have a shop on Depop and somebody else out there in the ecosystem can love it and enjoy it. And who knows, maybe they're like us. They've been searching for that very top all along.
Doree Shafrir (10:40):
Well, Elise, we also have not discussed this, but I have also been selling on Depop.
Elise Hu (10:44):
Oh, yay.
Doree Shafrir (10:46):
And how's it been going? If you want to find my shop, it's forever Doree.
(10:51):
It's been going well. I've sold a bunch of stuff. Great. And I'm also trying to be selective because some of the pieces that I've sold, I'm like, "Oh, I actually like this, but I never wear it. " For whatever reason, maybe it doesn't quite fit exactly right or the color's just not the right color for me. And I've just had to be like, "You know what? Someone else is going to appreciate this more than I do. " So it's been great to do that on Depop because the process is super quick and super simple. I've sold on different platforms before and I think Depop's is the easiest to sell on.
Elise Hu (11:23):
Yeah. And it's just really rewarding to see that someone can buy a piece that you have loved and know that it's going to someone who's actually going to value it.
Doree Shafrir (11:32):
A hundred percent. So download the Depop app and list your first item in seconds. It's so easy and a great way to make money easily with no selling fees. Thank you again, Depop, for making this branded segment possible. All right. Well, let's introduce our guest. Kara Swisher is the host of On with Kara Swisher and the co-host of the Pivot Podcast. She's also an editor at large New York magazine and a CNN contributor. She is the co-founder of the technology website recode, the Tech Conference Code, which is the country's premier conference on tech and media and her new CNN original series, Kara Swisher, Wants to Live Forever, premiered on April 11th. It is fascinating. I highly suggest you check it out. I learned about things I feel like I can't unknow now. I'll put it that way. Spent a lot of time with people that I probably would not choose to spend time with.
Elise Hu (12:34):
Okay. Good tease.
Doree Shafrir (12:38):
Yes. All right. So we will be right back with Kara.
Elise Hu (12:41):
We'll be right back.
Doree Shafrir (12:42):
Okay. Kara Swisher, welcome to Forever 35. Thank you. It's very nice to have you on the show. Good.
Kara Swisher (12:51):
Nice to be here.
Doree Shafrir (12:52):
Yeah. I was thinking the name of our show is sort of ironic given your new CNN series. I remember
Kara Swisher (13:00):
35.
Elise Hu (13:01):
It's ironically named anyway. Yes.
Kara Swisher (13:04):
I remember 35 in the last century.
Doree Shafrir (13:07):
Yeah. Before we get into the new show, which is fascinating and everything else, we do always start our conversations with our guests by asking them about self-care practice that they have.
Kara Swisher (13:18):
Oh, okay. I go to hardware stores specifically. I love hardware stores and I enjoy wandering through them and looking at all the things because they're so ridiculous. Some of them and small and interesting and people are very inventive about different hacks and things like that. And so I go, then I wander and there's a particular one. I have one in each city, but the one in San Francisco is my favorite, which is Cliff's Hardware, which is about to have its 90th birthday. It's the finest hardware store in the land. It's in the Castro of San Francisco. And I just love it. Every time I go there, I find something delightful and it's very calming. I enjoy it.
Elise Hu (13:55):
Do you take on your own DIY projects?
Kara Swisher (13:58):
Yeah, it depends. Not heavy duty things. I mean, I have my home renovated by experts. I don't really feel like building a wall, but I'm interested in it. I certainly fix everything. And in our family with my kids, I have a lot of kids, but I'm the fix-it mom. So I fix it. Well, they don't bring them to my wife, Amanda. They bring them to me and I fix whatever battery needs put in or something broke off or something's not clicking right. It falls to me. Although I won't do Lego, I can't stand.
Elise Hu (14:25):
It's just too tedious.
Doree Shafrir (14:26):
And we're talking about sort of like mom and pop hardware stores, not
Kara Swisher (14:30):
Like a Home Depot. No, no, no, no. I mean, I don't mind a Home Depot or Lowe's, but they're kind of like vast. And I like smaller stores and Cliffs is like, if you ever in San Francisco, there's lots to see, but it's a wonderful, fantastic old time hardware store. There's one in DC called Strasnyders in Bethesda, which I also ... I like the people I are talking to the guys who will tell you what screw you need where's this tiny little screen and they know exactly where it is or whatever do hickey you need. And I like it. It's very comforting. I know it sounds crazy, but it calms you down. No, I love that. And I like it.
Elise Hu (15:05):
It's not at all. And some of my fondest memories with my father are going to the hardware store with him.
Kara Swisher (15:11):
Assessing the situation, the tool that you need.
Elise Hu (15:14):
Exactly. Or just like finding a really good deal or do hickey or tool thing.
Kara Swisher (15:18):
Lots of things. So Carmoster, whoever buys for them are very creative people. And Cliff's is particularly funny because then there's the whole overlay of a gay neighborhood. So you have all this wild stuff in there too. And at Halloween, it's astonishing. They pick out the best costumes and lights. And they're always really nice kitchen stuff and just really good taste. So it's a hardware store with extraordinarily good taste, but it's not too expensive. Yeah. So it's great. Yeah.
Doree Shafrir (15:42):
I feel like the next time I go to San Francisco, I'm going to be like, and I must check out this hardware store. Now
Elise Hu (15:46):
It's destination.
Doree Shafrir (15:48):
We had
Kara Swisher (15:48):
Tour
Elise Hu (15:48):
Guides.
Kara Swisher (15:49):
One thing that's amazing about, again, it's almost 90 years it's going to be in business. It's got the most beautiful storefronts. They do all these incredibly creative storefronts that are funny as fuck. Some of them are dirty. They're just funny, funny, funny.
Elise Hu (16:04):
We are having you on Kara because you are headlining this new series about aging well.
Kara Swisher (16:10):
It's not about aging well. It's about this technology around longevity. And it was sort of born because all the tech bros I cover are very interested in longevity. And so, and a lot of them are investing a lot, whether it's Sam Altman or Larry Ellison or Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. They've been making all these investments in various fields of longevity. And so I was exploring what's real. And then sort of online, obviously influencers have taken over every aspect of our lives, political influencers, sports influencers, dance influencers. And of course in healthcare and beauty, it's gotten out of control. And there's a lot of really nonsensical crap on there. And so I wanted to explore that also and try things and see what really has scientifically based. And one is just expensive nonsense that takes advantage of consumers.
Doree Shafrir (16:56):
I watched the first episode and you talked to Brian Johnson
Kara Swisher (17:01):
Who
Doree Shafrir (17:01):
Has been kind of in the news for the past few years.
Kara Swisher (17:05):
Years.
Doree Shafrir (17:06):
He gets very sort of defensive when you say he's an influencer. And I'm wondering, did anything about your conversation with him surprise you or what did you take away from that?
Kara Swisher (17:19):
Well, I knew him before in the four times when he looked like a normal person. And I don't have to say, he's obviously transformed himself and he likes it. He's aware he's a bit of a circus act and he kind of welcomes it by his ridiculous photographs and all his ... He's like, " I'm not an influencer. "I'm like, " Look at these 10 pictures of which you're trying to be a thirst trap in this one and the vial of blood in this one. "He's actually ... There was a very pretty tough article in the New York Times about how he is as an employer, but I've known him for a while and then he just reappeared as this thing, like this thing holding up a blood vial or measuring his erection at night and stuff like that. So it was a big shift. And he sort of gets written about because he's spending all this money trying to be younger, trying to live longer and he has a don't die thing, which he says is not wanting not to die, but not wanting to live forever.
(18:10):
It's wanting not to ... I was confused very confused. He's honestly confused
Doree Shafrir (18:13):
By
Kara Swisher (18:14):
That. He's playing word games is what he's doing pretty much. And fine. Everyone has their own little journey in life. I don't really care, but one of the things he's doing, I think, is creating this idea that he's trying to help humanity. And what he's doing is he's just giving us an experiment for one person. And that's the point I want to make is this isn't going to help everybody. He's like under this misapprehension that he's going to ... His data matters to everyone, but it doesn't. It's just Brian Johnson's data. And the whole thing about studies is it's a lot of people, right? So you get a range of different people. And so there's a narcissism involved in it, obviously, and then the sort of futility of it because he'll die. And so what is he doing here? And so I think I had to talk to him because he's sort of the stop on it and he's the most extreme example.
(19:05):
But then there's a lot of stuff going on like this where they try to sell us all manner of elixirs and potions. This is not a new thing, by the way. It's happened forever. This is not a new phenomena of humanity, but it has gotten turbocharged in this social media age, especially. Yeah.
Elise Hu (19:20):
I was going to ask you what's new about it and how gendered is
Kara Swisher (19:24):
The longevity. Some of it's very male oriented, right? With men right now, it's protein maxing, which is nonsensical, this advice to have this much protein, every doctor, actual doctor you talk to. And medicine can change over time.That's not to say it shouldn't, but this double the amount you're supposed to take and everyone goes along, oh, they say it. I'm like, " It's not scientifically based or red light. Oh, it's going to solve this and this and this. "I said," Maybe if you have some inflammation and a wound, sure, but it's not going to make you look like a baby suddenly. "And so I think, " Oh, I swear by it. "I'm like, " Okay. "So it can go both ways. Red light machines, probably more women, protein maxing. Now there's electronic vests that you wear when you exercise. It gives you an extra edge and it's just not true.
(20:16):
I mean, some parts of it are a little true, but it's not worth the money you're paying. And my point is you can do a lot of other things that are invisible and cost free that you do in your 20s and 30s and then it will benefit in the 70s. It's just not as sexy as putting shrimp semen on your face and suddenly you're 35 forever.
Elise Hu (20:39):
Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back. Was there anything that you tried in the course of this series that you actually are going to continue doing?
Kara Swisher (20:55):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of advice around sociability and in terms of the health benefits from it. I interviewed people from the Harvard Happiness Study, a brain scientist and a bunch of people. And it's very clear that social interactions are critical and loneliness. I talked a lot about. There's deleterious health effects from loneliness and especially isolation from online. And so yeah, I've started to do more social things that I ... A lot of us stopped doing them during COVID, which COVID kind of broke us a little bit in that regard. And we have to really reestablish. And actually young people really, the numbers for social media are down because there's nothing social about it. There isn't. And it's fine for entertainment. My kids, my older kids watch YouTube. It's TV. I'm good. I watch TV, like big deal, but it's the idea of that it takes all your time and it takes all your attention.
(21:45):
And so I do that a lot less and it's addictive, so it's hard for everybody, for all of us. And some of the stuff around VO2Max I think is really interesting. I started running again and doing more interval training, which I think is important strength training. I already had been doing that focusing on not today, and I'm older, but like when I'm 80, I think I will be fitter when I'm 80, or at least ... Look, no one's escaping death, right? But you can really compact your ... You have a lifespan and a health span, and there's too much of a delta in between those two. I think it's 64 is when people start to see some real decline in lots of things just because of the natural thing. And I think our lifespan right now is 79, so health span is 64 in life.
(22:35):
So there shouldn't be a 15 year delta where you have to deal with it. So you could ... At some point you are going to get too old to move or things like that. But then there's all sorts of really interesting interventions happening career around robotics and AI and things that exocells you wear. I find mRNA technology, GLP-1's really interesting and talk to a lot of doctors, real doctors about that. And of course, even though AI leaders tend to use it as hype, which I think they do, there's a lot of forward momentum in that area in terms of using AI to help drug discovery, cancer research. I talked to a group called Face Age, and when doctors deal with people who have cancer, they eyeball them and decide whether they can take aggressive cancer treatment. And this thing is AI and it looks at you and it looked like a 76 year old woman and she has a face age of 62 and they're like, oh, we'll give her more aggressive.
(23:33):
Oh, that's interesting. AI is recommending more aggressive and doctors can use it as a tool. It doesn't mean it's the final arbiter. Several cases, it worked really well. The doctors are fifty fifty right and the AI is 80, 90% right. So if you have cancer, that's something you'd really want to avail yourself to.
Doree Shafrir (23:51):
Can you talk a little bit more about this sociability question?
Kara Swisher (23:55):
Sure.
Doree Shafrir (23:55):
Elise and I were actually just kind of talking about this because Elisa's a very social person. So this makes me think, Elise, you might live forever.
Kara Swisher (24:03):
You're not going to live forever.
Doree Shafrir (24:05):
Again,
Elise Hu (24:06):
It is- Or my health span will be longer. Yes,
Doree Shafrir (24:09):
Exactly. We
Kara Swisher (24:09):
All know the last page.
Doree Shafrir (24:11):
What is the research on this?
Kara Swisher (24:12):
Well, it's very clear. There's been things like the Harvard Happiness Study. A lot of people are like, "Is it co-related or causative?" And sociability is causative. It really is. And so one thing I did is I went with this brain neuroscientist, well-known neuroscientist to a game night in Brooklyn, where all these young people where they put down their phones, they started playing games. So there's a whole bunch of things happening there and first they're talking to each other. Second, they're playing games, which are very good for cognitive health, very good to play games, especially ones you don't know well that you can ... I will say I kicked their ass in poker pretty badly because they were kids and they're not good at bluffing and I am. And they just talk and they put their phones away and it has all manner ... The doctor, I was like, "Well, it's just nice." She's like, "No, no, stuff is happening here that's really good for lowering cortisol, lowering stress, lowering all these things that then have a later thing that you get when you're on the phone, this sense of isolation, the sense of doom scrolling." So I interview lots of people about this issue and there's some of the more significant studies, not just friends and family, but meeting new people and actually even having short encounters with people, you're at the coffee thing.
(25:29):
I urge all your listeners to try this. When you go get coffee, spend one day, every time you see someone that you have a real encounter with, not just anyone on the street, because then it gets a little mush, is you go, "Hey, how's your day going? Try it. See what happens." It helps them, it helps you. I ordered a coffee and I said, "How was your day?" And this is what happens. "What? You asked about me. "It's a really interesting thing that happens with people. And if you even engage further, even if it's a short encounter, it's actually quite good for you and for them.
Elise Hu (26:01):
I want to ask you about what you think the motivation of a lot of these longevity bros or longevity maxers is.
Kara Swisher (26:10):
Is
Elise Hu (26:10):
There kind of
Kara Swisher (26:10):
This- Money. That's what
Elise Hu (26:12):
I was going to say. Is there actually a deeper philosophical quest here or has this become kind of a bubble and it's about just trying to sell people resveratol and
Kara Swisher (26:22):
Stuff? No, this has been around since forever. "Oh, what's the next thing I can do to take a shortcut to something?" We're all about shortcuts in this country, especially in this country, which there aren't shortcuts to most things. And if I only took ... Think about the old diet industry. Now is the grapefruit diet. Oh no, no, no. Now you have to do this. Oh, no, no, no. When it's always been the same thing, whole foods, legumes, not so much red meat, no matter what that idiot RFK says, he's such a moron. This is not new stuff. And I think a lot of people get ... They want to make it into a cell thing like, "Hey, if you do this, " it's just most of the things that really, really work don't cost anything. And so they have to sell you on something. And I always say, if there's a supplement or bar involved or program, you probably are getting taken in some way.
(27:14):
And they may believe it. They maybe they'll believe it, but I don't think they do. I mean, I don't know.
Elise Hu (27:19):
The other dimension of this is just that we have so many ways to measure various metrics of- Data. So we have all this data that then convinces us that we need more stuff, right? There's all these subscription services where you can get more blood draws than your typical blood panel and then people who swear by their aura rings.
Kara Swisher (27:38):
The aura ring is an interesting thing because it does give you some interesting data, right? Especially if you have heart issues or ... Most people don't have arterial fibrillation problems, right? But in the one case you do, fantastic, but people like to count, right? Oh, this number means this. 10,000 steps. And so when I was wearing a lot of these in the early days, I was like, "10,000 steps." I'm like, "And?" And they're like, "10,000 steps." I'm like, "What does it mean?" You get a lot of data without meaning and it never ... And they try on their apps to knit it together. You got this many, this is what it means, but does it? And one of the two moments was when I was interviewing Zeke Emanuel and he's in this documentary, he's a doctor and he's written a great book called Eat Your Ice Cream.
(28:21):
And I was wearing the Oura Ring and he goes, "Oh, do you like that? " I go, "Well, the data's interesting. I saw that I didn't sleep well last night." He goes, "Didn't you know that when you woke up?" And I was like, "I did. I didn't need the ora ring to tell me. " You didn't need the score. I didn't need the score. And I was like, "Oh, you're right."
Elise Hu (28:43):
Where are you on the chief medical officers and the doctors? The Peter Atia's out there.
Kara Swisher (28:48):
Well, we know Peter Artia now. I mean, Peter
Elise Hu (28:51):
Atia specifically is problematic at
Kara Swisher (28:53):
Best. Yeah. Well, he's got problems. And by the way, I don't know if what he was talking about was low carb or not, probably to Jeffrey Epstein. That was really an unfortunate comment. You can't even ... You're like, "Oh my God." You couldn't
Elise Hu (29:10):
Make it up, right?
Kara Swisher (29:10):
Nope. Some of his stuff is right, but it's all performative. The protein stuff is over too much, too much. And one of the things is, and I've had arguments with people, it's like the perfect squat, like, "Look, just let's get people squatting." I find it interesting, but narcissistic, right? It's done from a narcissistic point of view versus a health for all of us point of view. And I'm a health for all of the rest of us and it creates this sort of ... Look, it was very clear he started to do consulting with rich people. He's not helping everybody. You know who I like? Jack Lafucking Lane. Jack Lelaine, you never heard of him a hundred years ago. Here's a broomstick ladies. We're going to do a twist with the Broomstick.
(30:03):
It was sexist for the time, but it was like, "Y'all have broomsticks at home. Here's what you can use. Here's three calisthenics you could do. Let's go walking. Go watch Jack Lane." And you're like, "That is exactly right." You know what I mean? And he was of course making money on the show, but there weren't ... It just was a different attitude. It's for everybody. And I think that's what I like. And our country should have a much more focus on preventative care, which they do in Korea, which they do everywhere. And the judicious use of AI in terms of health, that would be great if the government and people that care about safety were involved in it rather than seven dudes from Silicon Valley all who want to maximize shareholder value, that kind of stuff. And of course our government has never been committed to universal ... Universal healthcare seems ... I can't even believe.
(30:52):
It's such a no-brainer. And we did it around smoking. We did it around drinking. We did it around a lot of stuff. So I think it's certainly possible. And what's great is people have a lot more information and what's bad is people have a lot more information. So some of the information just isn't vetted. And even smart people, I had some guy going on to me about peptides. I'm like, he's like, "No, they work. They're proven." I'm like, "Actually, if you look into it and do the reporting, it's been tested on 14 people. "
(31:24):
Oh, wow.
Elise Hu (31:24):
That's a
Kara Swisher (31:25):
Small simple size. It's not the number, but it's very small. It's a very small thing. Or any of it typically enough testing has not been done on many of the things, but it doesn't stop people from selling it. And the problem with peptides is a lot of it comes from China. There's some that are ... And they eject it yourself. And a lot of times people do that and it might not have impurities and everyone's like, "Well, it's subcutaneous." I'm like, "No, no, you're going to get sepsis, my friend, if you get the wrong badge." Oh my God. And I'm not trying to scare them. It's like, it's not regulated. So you're going to get what you get. And that's the kind of stuff. And it's not clear it helps. It's not clear. And so why are you a human guinea pig to things that aren't regulated or some, even though the FDA is too slow?
(32:14):
And I'm like, I don't know. I think we're doing okay not eating a lot of tainted meat. It gets in there in our system. But for the most part, I trust or the water- The regulators. The water used to be. Look, our country used to people die of cholera. They don't die of color. Well, maybe now in RFK's America, they do. We get measles. Terrify.
Elise Hu (32:33):
Terrifying.
Kara Swisher (32:34):
Yeah. He's best friend to measles. That's my name for him. Best friend to measles.
Doree Shafrir (32:40):
You were recently talking on your podcast on with Kara Swisher about AI and you compared it to a Twinkie instead of an apple and you were kind of talking about how you think people are going to tire of AI.
Kara Swisher (32:51):
Well, certain AI. I was talking about the slop that comes out. No, look, AI has ... It's like any technology. Look, I'm really loving electric lights. I don't love the electric chair. So there's all manner of things that have twin feelings. And parts of AI are going to be astonishing, drug discovery, doing scenarios so that we can ... It takes a long time to make certain drugs and so it can speed up in ways that are really quite amazing. Climate change, it probably can help us with all kinds of stuff. It has great uses and it will. And that's clear. It hasn't yet, but CRISPR, things like that. They're really moving forward very quickly. And I do believe that's in an astonishing way. And what I think's going to happen is we're going to have some diseases, not all ... Well, probably we could start to cure all diseases in some fashion, but that's a fake promise for today.
(33:48):
It over promises. But I'm talking about AI slop and this stuff. And I do think people, years ago when I was at the MIT lab, they were trying to do these faces that help people with very simple ... Instead of having an intake nurse, most people have six things when they go to an emergency room, most of which are minor and you can resolve pretty quickly instead of people waiting. And the problem they had was with the eyes, humans could see it, that they weren't people. And it was always the eyes that everyone can see eyes. Eyes are very hard to replicate in any AI kind of situation. And so when all that Sora came out of it was like, "It's ended the day for Hollywood." I'm like, look, it's going to get better, but something's wrong with it that the humans ... And when I started to see winning movies this year, they used technology, all of them, but they all were individually creative movies, sinners, weapons, one battle after another.
(34:48):
Even the most recent one, Project Hail Mary, there's a lot of technology in that, but technology isn't the center of the show. And so I think that's ... If you can use AI in combination with humans, that's the one we want with humans in control of it. And it's using as an aid and a really super, super charged aid. I think that could be fantastic for a lot of people.
Doree Shafrir (35:10):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (35:22):
The series is called Somewhat Cheekly. Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever.
Kara Swisher (35:26):
Correct. Cheekily. What
Elise Hu (35:27):
Do you want folks to learn or do after watching the series?
Kara Swisher (35:33):
I want them to get back to the Steve Jobs idea of mortality, is respecting mortality and understanding you only have a short life on this earth, right? And compared to all of time, right? And that we have this beautiful planet and we should start focusing on ... Use death as an inspirational. And Steve Jobs talked about this. It's the greatest inspiration for life is to understand you have a limited time. And so use the time you have to be as healthy as you can for as long as you can and use ... There's no shortcuts to anything, right? And so I want people to think about that. What are they doing now that's going to have implications later? What are they doing to the planet that they could have implications later? And they don't have to.
(36:19):
This is not a tisk-tisky documentary. I'm just telling you like it is. I'm like, look, if you do these things, probably you'll have a better life at the end, but there will be an end. And so I want people to think about that and make it ... One of the last episode, I talked to some religious leaders. I talked to this one professor from Skidmore where he's doing a study of that people that are death accepting live longer and are healthier. He's doing study right now compared to death fears. And you know what happens with death fears? They become polarized. They hateful, hateful of the other, angry, sicker and that kind of stuff. And it sort of describes our country right now. We're in a death fear zone or something like that. And so a lot of the stuff that Silicon Valley is selling to me is death fear, right?
(37:06):
And it's like, don't be scared of it. Be looking forward to your time here. And one of the things that really, really affected me just recently was the Artemis photos, not just the photos, the astronauts themselves, right? And what's astonishing is that they're very ... I don't know what to say. They're so human and yet they're so surrounded by technology, right? These people and technology got them. They went further than any human being has ever gone away from the earth. But when they looked back and took these stunning pictures, right? And it just was astonishing to see the amount of technology at work. And at the same time, I think Christina Cook, I think that's how you pronounce it, she's one of the crew members. And this quote was astonishing. "We will explore, we will build, we will build ships, we will visit again, we will construct science outposts, we will drive rovers, we'll do radio astronomy, we will found companies, we will boost our industry, we will inspire, but ultimately we will choose earth.
(38:10):
We will always choose each other. "That's like such a perfect sentence. We are going to use technology. We are going to live longer. We're going to do things to help us solve, but ultimately this is the planet we're on. And I think that's the kind of attitude I'm trying to push here, is that let's understand where we're going and try to boost each other in some way. And at the same time, not be like, we're not going to build, we're not going to explore, we're not going to go on. And the analogy I would use is Star Trek versus Star Wars, which I'm talking about in my book, Burn Book, where Steve Jobs and I were talking and he said," I love Star Wars and Star Trek, excuse me. "And it actually is a scene in the Star Trek Museum in Upstate New York. It's in a small little town in New York.
(38:54):
They've moved the whole set there, which is kind of fascinating and all the Trekkies go. And you can make fun of them. I think they're adorable.
(39:02):
But one of the things with Star Trek, it was about people, right? There was technology everywhere. It was about people and it was about their interactions and their community and they go out and explore and sometimes people don't make it and some people ... It was a very human science fiction version of the future. Hopeful. Very hopeful and about getting ... It was like the Benetton ad of science fiction in the old days. And Start Wars is a very dark version of that. Technology that kills technology that overwhelms people. Darth Vader is a creature because of technology. He gets somewhat redeemed at the end, but still technology takes over in a way and destroys and humanity gets lost and evil wins. And that to me is ... It's sort of when I first started to see people using drones for war and they were playing it like they were playing video games.
(39:57):
And I kept thinking," Do you know that's a person down there? "Even if you don't agree with them,
(40:03):
My God, it sort of takes away from the humanity of it. And I wanted people to understand that when they have a limited amount of time on this planet and none of us know when that's going to be, you have to do the best possible while you're here for the most people. And I think that's what I would love the tech industry to get thinking about is how can we help everyone instead of just taking all the juicy bits for ourselves. And that would be a wonderful thing because we are blessed with this astonishing planet. I'm not a religious person, but it's so obvious when you look at those pictures, you can't not believe in something greater than yourself. So anyway, also I have some fun getting in a hyperbaric chamber and taking care of me. Don't get in a hyperbaric trainer unless you have the Benz girls.
(40:50):
Don't do it. You don't need more oxygen. There's plenty out here right
Doree Shafrir (40:54):
Now. Johnson does it
Kara Swisher (40:55):
Every
Doree Shafrir (40:56):
Day. I
Kara Swisher (40:56):
Know. I know. You know what you should do? Hug your children. That'll make you live longer. That's absolutely sure. I'm sure of that one.
Elise Hu (41:06):
Kara Swisher, thank you so much. You were wonderful.
Kara Swisher (41:09):
Thank you.
Doree Shafrir (41:14):
Kara is so herself. She's exactly the same as she is on all her podcasts, on all her TV stuff.
Elise Hu (41:23):
And it's funny because we asked her for the Patreon extra, kind of who she was when she was 35, and she's now in her fishes and she's like exactly the same. I've been the same person since I was four years old, and I completely believe her.
Doree Shafrir (41:38):
We were like, just quick whatever comes to your mind. And she just was giving these great explanations for
Elise Hu (41:46):
Everything. She's a yep. Yep, yep. Graphs with the best of them. Yep.
Doree Shafrir (41:49):
Yep,
Elise Hu (41:50):
Exactly. Lots of respect for that.
Doree Shafrir (41:53):
I love that. Well, Elise, last week you were on a fiber journey.
Elise Hu (41:59):
Yes. How
Doree Shafrir (41:59):
Did that go for you?
Elise Hu (42:01):
Not bad. Not bad. Cruciferous vegetables are delicious. I just remember Dr. Presarisha saying, not just the lettuce on a burger, go for broccoli and cauliflower. And I love roasted broccoli and cauliflower. So I have no problem with that. I just need to make sure to be intentional. And then for this week, especially with travel, I get away from strength training. I managed to go outside for a run here or there or get on the hotel treadmill, but I don't, because I'm away from classes and I typically take those ridiculous strength training classes or Pilates classes because I'm away from them, I don't do it. And so that's going to be my intention just to get back into doing some things for strength and my rotator cuff and all of that.
Doree Shafrir (42:52):
I love that.
Elise Hu (42:53):
What about you?
Doree Shafrir (42:55):
Well, last week my intention was to just be present and have fun. And I feel like I was able to do that. I mean, it's kind of funny that I need to sort of state that to make it happen, but you know what?
Elise Hu (43:10):
That's the point of these intentions, right? Just to essentially create the marker for it.
Doree Shafrir (43:14):
Yep. That's where we are right now. And then this week I have some travel coming up. So I think I am also going to copy your intention from last week, try to keep things regular.
Elise Hu (43:30):
Keep regular. Yeah. All right. Good intention.
Doree Shafrir (43:36):
So yeah. All right. Thanks everybody. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partners, ACAST. We'll talk to you soon.
Elise Hu (43:50):
Talk to you next time.
Doree Shafrir (43:51):
Bye.