Episode 385: So Many Podcast Recs with Lauren Passell

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Written By Forever 35 Podcast

Lauren Passell, the founder of Tink Media and author of Podcast the Newsletter, joins the show to recommend your next podcast listens from casual chat shows (like this one!) to true crime and everything in between. She also shares her thoughts on where podcasts are going and what she’s really digging in podcasts lately. 

Transcript

 

The transcript for this episode is AI generated.

Doree Shafrir (00:10):

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir. And I'm Elise Hu, and we're just two friends who

Elise Hu (00:19):

Like to talk a lot about serums.

Doree Shafrir (00:20):

Today we have an exciting guest, Lauren Passell, who is like ... She's like a publicist for podcasts, but I would say she's much more than that.

Elise Hu (00:32):

She's a podcast super listener. She's a podcast fan. Yes, she is. She's a human curator of what to be listening to right now. Longtime listener of Forever35, so we're touched and delighted by that. But also she has led us to so many of our wonderful guests who are podcasters. And she also, just as a friend and as somebody that I read, she has awesome recommendations of shows that I would've never otherwise heard of. So we have Lauren on the show to just talk about what's out there right now, talk about big trends in the industry. And we broke things down into categories for y'all if you're looking for your next great listen.

Doree Shafrir (01:16):

Yeah. I feel like people are always asking for podcast recommendations and it was just nice to hear from someone who has a lot of them.

Elise Hu (01:23):

Yeah.

Doree Shafrir (01:23):

Yeah.

Elise Hu (01:24):

Do you listen to anything regularly besides our own show?

Doree Shafrir (01:28):

I listen to some news podcasts. I listen to Up First and I listen to The Daily.

Elise Hu (01:33):

Yeah.

Doree Shafrir (01:33):

I don't actually listen to a ton of chat shows. I have to admit.

Elise Hu (01:37):

Yeah.

Doree Shafrir (01:38):

Yeah. What about you?

Elise Hu (01:39):

She talks about one that I am super into, or maybe I brought it up in the course of this conversation. One of my favorite chat shows is If Books Could Kill. And it's not explicitly a chat show because it's also heavily researched and it's about airport books and they deconstruct the arguments of airport books like they take apart the four hour workweek and Atomic Habits. Their one on the anxious generation is really fascinating. So if y'all aren't already hip to If Books Could Kill, that's a good one. And then because we live in Los Angeles and we're surrounded by people who are in the entertainment industry, I also like to listen occasionally, but not regularly to the podcasts from Puck. So Puck, the news organization that's sort of at the intersection of media and business in Hollywood, they do a show that my friend Peter Hamby hosts called Powers That Be.

(02:33)
And that's pretty good to keep me updated on what the insiders are saying about Wall Street and Washington and what's going on with the potential whatever next merger or super conglomerate is being formed. And then there's the Matt Bellany one, but I feel like I'm too removed. I'm like- The town? Yeah, the town. And I'm like a step removed from that business of Hollywood stuff. I don't really care about box office numbers.

Doree Shafrir (02:58):

Right.

Elise Hu (02:58):

So that's one that I listen to occasionally if the description is interesting to me. Oh, during the strike,

Doree Shafrir (03:05):

It was

Elise Hu (03:05):

Good because I wanted to know when the strikes were going to be over or the labor dispute was going to be resolved. And so I thought that was helpful to me because it affected the entire micro economy here. Yes, yes, yes. I'm listening to Money with Katie, which I've talked about. Oh yeah, nice. And Lauren, just a little tease. Lauren recommends another podcast from the same Katie that we're talking about of Money with Katie, but we'll save it to let Lauren talk about it. Yes.

Doree Shafrir (03:37):

Well, what else is happening with you, Elise?

Elise Hu (03:40):

We just started post-production. So when this is airing, post-production on Windswept will have begun. Our editor starts full-time today putting together the finished documentary or the rough cut of the documentary that I have been shooting for a year and the archival producer starts today too. And so I have been busy kind of in the background doing all the interviews and reference checks and things for those two positions. And we love who we brought on to amazing women of color. The editor to a documentary is so vital because they essentially write the documentary. The film is written. I'm doing air quotes right now because y'all can't see me. The film is written in the edit. And so when we were in negotiation with her, she wanted to make sure, for example, that she got a written by credit because editors are so vital to a documentary.

(04:39)
And so she starts today. The archival producer starts today.

Doree Shafrir (04:43):

I'm

Elise Hu (04:43):

Really excited about this next stage, but anxious about continuing to raise money so that they can be paid for as long as possible.

Doree Shafrir (04:54):

Can you let our listeners know how they can support the film?

Elise Hu (04:58):

Yes. Please go to winsweptfilm.com and then you can watch the trailer and meet these four kids that I've been talking to y'all about on and off throughout the last year. And also there's a button where you can make a tax deductible contribution. Any amount helps. We would love that. And then you can just join the Win/Swept family because there's hundreds of folks who have contributed now in this grassroots effort. And I'm continuing to do a lot of grant applications, but it is a lot of work to do that, but I'm starting to realize that a lot of the prompts are similar. So long as I save my previous work, I can kind of edit for the next one.

Doree Shafrir (05:39):

And when can you submit it to festivals and stuff like that? It has to be totally done.

Elise Hu (05:47):

When there's a cut, a final cut of the film. And so we're hoping ... I mean, we're not in a rush. The Sundance deadline is, I think, every year in September or late September, but our editor is taking a maternity leave in March and we were really like ... We really stressed with her that, look, we're not going to ... We'd rather have a great finished film than a film that met some sort of arbitrary deadline. So really excited about that. That's kind of the big headline right now. And then same stuff, man. My weekends are full of volleyball gyms and soccer fields.

Doree Shafrir (06:23):

And is this just your life now until they're like 18? I mean, I don't know. How does this work?

Elise Hu (06:33):

I'm sort of laughing because I don't want to catastrophize and project forward and be like, oh my gosh, this is my life now. Because a friend of ours- Sorry. I didn't mean to say it like that. Yeah, no, no, no. Thankfully, I love both sports. I love watching both sports and Nicholas Thompson, the publisher of The Atlantic, I think he just wrote a recent ... He's a big runner, I think, like an ultra marathoner or something. And he wrote a book recently about his life hacks or what's made things work for him to flourish. And one point that he made was that he made sure that his kids' activities overlap with his own joy. So it's not like my ... For example, I wouldn't enjoy it if my kids were in MMA, because you can't ... I just don't enjoy it as much. But my kids are in sports that I love watching, and then they have made choices to be on teams where the parents are awesome.

(07:32)
I was with a parent this morning who was like, "I'm so glad my kids are at the school that they're at because the parents are great. There's no asshole parents." And that makes a huge difference. That's been the case with my kids' friends and all their grades too. Our school community is really awesome. And we've had ones in previous schools, which have been less awesome. So I have the relativity there. And yeah, so I don't mind per se. I'm really concerned more about the money. It's extremely expensive for volleyball in particular because of the rules. There's all these rules about where you stay and it has to be the tournament hotel. And there's rules about when you fly and you can't fly until after 7:00 PM on Sunday night, for example. And if you can't fly until then, it limits you to like maybe one or two flights out of Reno or St. Louis or these places with fewer flights.

(08:30)
And then the flights, like right now, there's a bunch of parents who are in the chat talking about how flights to Reno and back are like $1,700. What? Yeah. And it's like, nah, no one wants to do that till Reno. And so everybody's joking about trying to win it back at the craps table.

Doree Shafrir (08:48):

Oh my gosh.

Elise Hu (08:50):

Yeah. So I don't know how long I am for that world, actually. We'll see. Just we take it one season at a time.

Doree Shafrir (08:57):

Totally. On that note, let's introduce our guest. So excited. Lauren Passell is the founder of Tink Media, an award-winning podcast marketing and PR company and podcast the newsletter, a podcast recommendation newsletter. She speaks about podcast growth in classrooms and for conferences all over the world. And before we get to Lauren, just a reminder that you can visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram @forever35podcast. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com/forever35. We are doing our casual chats on video now, which is super fun. We are also planning on doing quarterly live casual chats for our Patreon supporters. We do our monthly pop culture episodes. There's a Patreon chat. There's a lot happening. We do our Forever35 questionnaire, which is like a little bonus interview with our guests every week. Those are super fun.

(09:56)
We've gotten some great book recommendations, some great candle recommendations. Yeah, those are just great. So you can do all that at patreon.com/forever35 and add free episodes. Forgot about that. We have so much on our Patreon.

Elise Hu (10:09):

Yeah. You

Doree Shafrir (10:09):

Can shop our favorite products at shopmy.us/forever35. And if you want to reach us, you can call us at 781-591-0390 or text us at that number and email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com. I also forgot to mention one more thing. If you don't want to pay for our Patreon, you can sign up as a free member and still get our newsletter. Yes. How fun is that? Yes. And now we will take a little break and we will be back with Lauren. We'll be right back. Lauren, welcome to Forever35. We are so excited to have you on the show.

Lauren Passell (10:50):

Thank you for having me. I am an original listener. Wow.

Doree Shafrir (10:54):

Yeah.

Lauren Passell (10:55):

And I've known Dori for a long time. So this is really, really kind of unbelievable that I'm going to be on ... I can't believe it. I really, truly

Doree Shafrir (11:04):

Can't. It is a real happening. It's a real full circle moment. We both worked at Rolling Stone in the early ought teens, as they say, because I left Rolling Stone in 2012, and I think you stayed for a few more years. I

Lauren Passell (11:19):

Wasn't at Rolling Stone. I was at Little Brown and I helped publish Startup. No, you were not. You can't start

Elise Hu (11:28):

Publishing.

Doree Shafrir (11:29):

Oh yeah, that's right. Yes, yes, yes.

Lauren Passell (11:33):

But I wish I worked at Roland Stone, that sounds way cooler than Little Brown Publishing. It's so cool. Yeah. No, but ooh, I have a story that I've never gotten to talk to you about this. We might have to cut it out. Isn't that always the best stuff? Just

Elise Hu (11:49):

Go there. Yes, that's good podcasting.

Lauren Passell (11:51):

I don't know if you remember this. No, it makes me look bad and I've never gotten over it. I don't even know if I told you about this, Elise. What? I was working on graphics for you or something, for a promotional something, and you sent me your photo and I just passed it along to the art department. I was like, "Cool. We need this photo. Go do it. " You're not going to believe this if you don't remember this. They tweaked your ... They didn't think you were smiling enough. Do you remember

Elise Hu (12:19):

This?

Lauren Passell (12:20):

They changed it slightly. Oh my God. Oh my God. And I didn't notice. It was so slight and I was just like, thank you. Yeah, did I know? And I never said anything because I was younger and dumber. Listen, I was horrified because I was like, this is like comical. They were like, "This woman is not smiling enough. We're going to change

Elise Hu (12:48):

Her smile." We're going to make her

Lauren Passell (12:49):

Smile. And then it looked like I did it. Do you know what I mean? I was like, "You guys." So anyway, but I should have noticed it. So I was horrified. And then I'm just like, this is who Dori thinks I am now. And I've never, honestly, Dori, it's been haunting me for years. So if nothing else, I'm glad that we're here now. And you don't even remember. It's so funny.

Elise Hu (13:07):

It's so funny. I don't remember. I think that's something in which it lives rent free in your mind with regard to your relationship with Dori, but Dori didn't even remember it. Okay, thanks

Lauren Passell (13:17):

Guys. It's been great.

Doree Shafrir (13:19):

Thanks for having me on the show. Bye. I mean, I think it also just points to like there were so many other things going on at the time and that was just like one of many things. And this is now ringing like a vague bell. I think they changed it back as I recall.

Lauren Passell (13:38):

Well, you were like, are you kidding me? They changed my smile and I was like, yes, they did. And I went and I was, I don't know, I had to have a talk with them. I just can't believe how absurd that you would ... I don't know. It's comical. It's like cartoonish that someone would do that. Anyway, funny stories. Start things off. I'm glad. I feel better. I feel physically better. I'm glad we did this. Good.

Doree Shafrir (14:06):

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad that we were able to have this cathartic moment.

Elise Hu (14:11):

Yeah. And this is a great space for it.

Doree Shafrir (14:13):

Yeah. But we are unfortunately not here to talk about the book that I wrote nine years ago. Oh my God. My gosh.

Lauren Passell (14:21):

Yeah.

Doree Shafrir (14:22):

But we are here to talk about your life now as a podcast publicist, newsletter, writer, guru, knower of all things, but we do start off by asking our guests, as you know, about a self-care practice that they have. So is there something that you would consider self-care? It can be podcast related or not.

Lauren Passell (14:49):

Ever since I was old enough to bathe or shower by myself, ever since I was a little kid, I didn't tell anyone I did this until I was 21. It's something I call shower belly. I'm not joking. Every single day I make a ... I lather, if you need me to come up with something else, let me know. I lather a layer of soap. It has to be a bar soap onto my belly. It takes a long time. You have to really get the lather going and then I draw on it every day.

Elise Hu (15:21):

Not strawberries. I love this. It's really

Lauren Passell (15:24):

Weird. It's your own

Elise Hu (15:27):

Kind of sacred ritual that you've always done. It's really

Lauren Passell (15:30):

Weird. And yeah, and I was on a first date or something with somebody and I was always like, "Don't even tell anyone this. " And I had one glass of wine with this guy I had nothing to talk about and I ran out of things quickly and I told him about it and he thought it was very weird. And I was like, "Well, the cat's out of the bag. Now you have to tell. You can tell people it's a safe..." He knows this guy you just met knows. So anyway, I still do it. It never looks ... People are like, "What do you draw?" I'm like, "It doesn't matter what you draw. It never looks right. It's more of a ... " I don't know.

Elise Hu (16:00):

I like that you get to kind of be in your body. It's like the same one that you've always had. It's the same one since you were born. I like

Lauren Passell (16:08):

That. That's very sweet. It's like a moment. Shower's a good time to just not ... Speaking of podcasts, it's like the only time I'm not listening to podcasts. Oh,

Elise Hu (16:18):

You're not going to get one of those JBL waterproof speakers for your shower? No.

Lauren Passell (16:22):

I need to draw a line somewhere. Yeah. It's the only safe space I have.

Elise Hu (16:28):

How many podcasts are out there now? Because I feel like I've heard some ridiculous figure.

Lauren Passell (16:34):

I feel like I've heard like four million or something, but the thing is, most of them are not active when someone is making too much of a big deal or flexing a little too hard that they're in the top 1% or something. If someone's flexing about that too much, it's like a sign that they don't know that the top 1% means 1% of any podcast that's ever started, any podcast that's ever had a single episode. So it's cool to have a podcast and keep it going. It's a lot of work. It's hard, but that 1% ... I hear that 1% a lot and I'm like, yeah, you and a lot of people. So there's so, so, so many. When you hear those numbers, think it's so much less the people that are actually publishing on a consistent schedule and have more

Elise Hu (17:22):

Than one episode. Industry knowledge. I like this. All right. How do you decide what to listen to in this sea of shows, in this abundant field? I

Lauren Passell (17:35):

Mean, I like to listen to things to know what's going on. Obviously, I don't listen to New Heights, the Kelsey Brothers podcast, but I listen to the Taylor Swift episode, and it was an amazing episode, freakishly amazing how perfect she was. I'm not even a Taylor Swift fan, but I will do that. I'll listen to something that I think is noteworthy, but then I listen to a lot of my favorites just nonstop. If I'm listening to a show and there's a guest that I like, I'll go find out if they've been on other podcasts or if they have a podcast. I will frequently put Josh Gondelman in Spotify and listen to every single thing he's ever guested on just because that's a way to discover funny shows and he's the best guest. He's going to make any show incredible. I see. Yes. Okay. That's a tip.

(18:26)
If you find a guest, just search for them Spotify. But yeah, and then if someone recommends something to me and really means it, I will always, always listen to something someone recommends me no matter what. Because I think it's telling me something about that person and I am hungry for new things to listen to.

Elise Hu (18:44):

That just reminded me that we had somebody Josh Gondelman adjacent on last year. We had Maris Kreisman on last year, who is Josh's partner.

Lauren Passell (18:54):

I know.

Elise Hu (18:54):

And also a delightful

Lauren Passell (18:56):

Guest.

Elise Hu (18:57):

Oh my gosh. We had an interviewer. Great interviewer as well.

Lauren Passell (18:59):

Well, I kind of was parallel to her when I was in book publishing. So I was like a fan of hers first and yeah, I often like daydream that they'll adopt me or I could have a slumber party at their house or something. Do you think they would let me do that? I just want to hang out with them. And you put it out into

Doree Shafrir (19:17):

The universe asking. Yeah, exactly.

Lauren Passell (19:21):

Next

Doree Shafrir (19:21):

Time you're talking to her, throw it out there. So Lauren, we wanted to kind of break down your faves by sort of general categories. And I'd like to start with the category that I would put ourselves in, which is chat shows like ours, like where you feel like the hosts are kind of your friends.

Lauren Passell (19:43):

I think one of my favorites is, I believe you had Lindy West on the show.

Elise Hu (19:50):

And her friend and

Lauren Passell (19:52):

Her best friend. And Megan and Megan. Yes. I think that is one of those shows that I don't know why more people aren't listening to. It's like, because there's so many obviously, but that reminds me of Call Your Girlfriend, which I don't know if people remember that old, that was an old school, one of the OGs. With

Elise Hu (20:09):

Anne Friedman and Amina Tao.

Lauren Passell (20:11):

Yeah. And they are not technically comedians. I guess no Lindy is, but Megan is hysterical and she works in DC. And you all know how funny they are. That's one. I also think, I think people- Oh,

Elise Hu (20:24):

We should note to listeners, that show is called Text Me Back. Text Me

Lauren Passell (20:26):

Back. Oh my goodness. Yes. Text me back. Salini. Text me back. And I also think one of the hits of last year, I think it launched last year, is called Handsome. It's with Tig Nataro and two of her friends. It's a trio of friends, hysterical, not always about something technically. It's just whatever they talk about is very, very funny. And then it's also, they have a smart format because they'll have a really famous person call in with a question for them to discuss. So it's a smart format because they don't have to ... They could get really big names because this person's only sending in a voice note of a question. They discuss it. So they get this kind of flashy celebrity and that's called Handsome.

Elise Hu (21:13):

Okay.

Lauren Passell (21:13):

I like that. I mean, this is like an obvious one, but Amy Poler's Good Hang is just kind of, I think, unbelievable. I'm not a big celebrity podcast fan, but that one has everything and it's well produced. She's famous. It gets big names, but it's also unhinged. It's like they know the rules of podcasting, so they know how they can break the rules. So Good Hang, I think is another one.

Elise Hu (21:39):

Speaking of format too, the thing that I like about Good Hang that elevates it above just a conversation with the guest is the beginning where she calls another friend who knows the guests to ask like, "Hey, what should I ask this person?" That's always a really fun opportunity to hype up your friend.

Lauren Passell (21:59):

Exactly. And it's a good example of how they kind of know the rules enough to know how to break them because I think a lot of people don't think enough like, "Am I allowed to do that? You can do whatever you want. " I love it when people do. I love segments. I love stuff like that. So yeah.

Elise Hu (22:14):

Is there a podcast that you're recommending the most lately?

Lauren Passell (22:19):

I mean, the podcast of the year that I have been recommending a ton is called Debtheads, D-E-B-T Heads. And it is just- I'm listening. They call it a true crime podcast on their bank accounts, but it's documentary style, so it's beautifully made. It's actually beautiful. I get nervous about money stuff, but it's beautifully and fun made. One episode, the host goes to TJ Maxx with her mother and grandmother to discuss their relationship with shopping. So it's really fun, but also a lot about how did we get in debt historically? So it's really, really smart. And then I have to say the one that ... So that's called Dethads, D-E-B-T Heads, but there's a podcast that I have listened to every single day since it began in 2016 or 17, every day, sometimes twice, because it is twice a day sometimes. And it's called The Daily Zeitgeist.

Elise Hu (23:21):

Oh, yes.

Lauren Passell (23:22):

And I amazed in the Zeitgang and it is humiliating that I identify as a Zeitgang member.

Elise Hu (23:28):

But

Lauren Passell (23:29):

The thing is, I can't always get people to start listening because it's like so many inside jokes. So many. And I'm always like, "You have to listen for a full year straight before you really get the hang of it, but it's worth it. Trust me. "

Elise Hu (23:45):

I want to go hang out with the zeitgeist at some point.

Lauren Passell (23:49):

Sleepover. They should have a sleepover.

Doree Shafrir (23:51):

Yeah. So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

Elise Hu (24:05):

Okay. Next category that we want to jump into. How about, and I know there's fewer of these these days because they're so expensive to make, but how about engrossing multi-part narratives or limited series

Lauren Passell (24:20):

Like

Elise Hu (24:21):

Cereal and that type

Lauren Passell (24:23):

Of show?

(24:24)
Okay. I mean, the best true crime of all time is, I don't even have a hard time saying, it's called In the Dark. And there's several seasons of In the Dark. It's the best example of investigative reporting. I almost kind of ... It's also true crime, but there's like a difference between between true crime and investigative reporting sometimes. This is original reporting. One of their seasons was about a man that was imprisoned named Curtis Flowers. The podcast helped him get out of jail. He was going to be in jail for the rest of his life. They just had a really good series on the most notorious murder in the UK in the dark is amazing. This year though, I would recommend a podcast called Wise Crack. Oh my gosh. It is about this standup comedian. It blends standup comedy and true crime. This standup comic believes that he was nearly murdered in the middle of the night and he uses it as part of his set.

(25:28)
And this journalist goes in, she's in Edimuro at the comedy festival and she hears the set. And I don't want to give too much away, but she goes in and tries to investigate what really happened that night. And I'm telling you, I've never heard anything like it. It's called Wise Crack.

Elise Hu (25:43):

Anything else in this category that you like? This makes me think of one from during COVID that I really liked called Dead Eyes. I think I've talked about Dead Eyes a lot with Door, but-

Lauren Passell (25:54):

That's Connor

Elise Hu (25:55):

Ratliff. Connor Ratliff investigates why he didn't get a role in Band of Brothers and whether it was really because Tom Hanks said he had dead eyes. The whole thing. Yeah. It starts as this fake true crime premise, but really it gets into so much of casting and what it's like to work as an artist and the various machinations of Hollywood. And I thought

Lauren Passell (26:25):

It was great. It was incredible. And his goal the whole time was like, I've got it. It's a long story about why he had to get Tom Hanks on the podcast the whole time, the whole time.

Elise Hu (26:35):

Yeah, Tom Hanks really was the only one who could really say definitively, "Oh yeah, I said you had dead eyes or I didn't, or I don't remember you at all, " or whatever it was.

Lauren Passell (26:42):

Yeah. And then he gets Tom Hanks and that episode is one of the best episodes ever. I would also say even just something that was released this year, Limited, it was on the embedded feed. It's called Alternate Realities

(27:00)
Basically his dad had started going down these rabbit holes, like conspiracy theories like Ken Trails, as crazy as you could believe, and it was really splitting up the family. And so he makes a bet with his dad and his dad says, "I believe these 10 things are going to be true in 2025." And they were really wild things like the Democrats would murder ... It was psychotic stuff. I can't even remember off the top of my head. And if they happened, for everyone that happened, that he believed what actually happened, Zach would get $1,000. And if it didn't happen, his dad would get, he'd have to pay his dad the $1,000. So

Elise Hu (27:43):

$10,000 are at stake.

Lauren Passell (27:45):

Yes. And they were really crazy. You're like, "How could anyone think that this stuff is going to happen?" And they're having conversations about this stuff. And it's really interesting because you're hearing how could someone get this far down this rabbit hole, but it ends up not even being about that because this bet destroys his family. It is about his mother, his sister, his relationship with his dad, and what this kind of thing can do to a family, a normal, smart, beautiful, happy, least seeming family. And I mean, spoiler alert, nothing the dad thought was going to happen was going to happen. And now they just did an update about, "Okay, dad, now what? " And another spoiler alert, the dad wants another bet. There's bet number two. So anyway, highly recommended, a beautiful ... I mean, it's wild, but it's also so interesting for this time we're in right now.

(28:36)
Yeah, so universal

Elise Hu (28:37):

In a lot of ways.

Lauren Passell (28:39):

A more extreme version perhaps is something you're going through at home. But also, it's a hard story about a family, but it's well done.

Elise Hu (28:47):

Good rec. Good

Lauren Passell (28:48):

Record. Have you ever heard of Diabolical Lies? I

Elise Hu (28:51):

Have. One of my girlfriends recommended this to me and I just didn't remember to save it. So now that you're mentioning it.

Lauren Passell (28:59):

I mean, the episodes are sometimes two and a half or three hours long. Yeah.

Elise Hu (29:04):

I don't have the time for that, but you're- I

Lauren Passell (29:06):

Sometimes listen twice or three times. They're so smart and so funny. Wow. So it's like an investment, right? Yeah. But they are friends, it's chatty, but every single one I go and think, they'll do things on ... They have an episode about capitalism or Gaza or they just did one skinny talk, but I always go in thinking one thing and coming out thinking something totally different or pornography or ... So it is an investment, but they put shorter episodes on the main feed and the longer episodes are part of their Patreon and stuff like that. So I highly recommend, if you're looking for deep dives into really fascinating topics and you can hang ... I mean, once again, I listen to so many podcasts, that's nothing for me. So I get But really worth it. And it's a great community

Elise Hu (30:02):

Of people. So for listeners of You're Wrong About too, or if Books Could Kill, it feels like diabolicalizes the same lane or a similar lane. Because I really love You're Wrong About I Love If Books Could Kill. I feel like If Books Could Kill is my favorite. And so it seems like ... I get why somebody recommended this to me now and why you're recommending it to us.

Lauren Passell (30:23):

It's funny because I made a list of some shows that I thought people might like and some things that were similar. You're wrong about comp was diabolicalize. Swish.

Doree Shafrir (30:36):

Well, I guess semi-related, what are some true crime or real life mysteries that aren't exploitative or super trophy? You mentioned In The Dark and we talked about a couple other shows, but are there any others that come to mind?

Lauren Passell (30:56):

There was a really good podcast from last year called Beyond All Repair by Amary Sivertson, who is actually the host of Endless Thread. Which is another very good podcast about ... It started as a Reddit podcast. It's about internet technology. It's about a woman accused of murdering her mother-in-law. It was just Annmarie really goes and gets to know this woman and every single ... It seemed like every single episode ended on a cliffhanger and the plot just kept on thickening and every single time I could not believe what I was listening to. It sounds like a kind of simple premise, but that was called Beyond Doll Repair. That's really good. I think ... Oh, there's a podcast called Outlaw Ocean right now, which is the most maybe dangerous thing I've ever listened to in my entire life. This guy is literally going ... It's all about true crimes that are happening on the ocean.

(32:05)
So this means like- Ooh, maritime law stuff. But he's going to slave ships and pirates.

Elise Hu (32:15):

Modern day pirates.

Lauren Passell (32:16):

Yeah. And he's on the ship. He has a crew that is going with him and they've put their lives in danger several times to make this show. So Outlaw Ocean is an example of also something that is just becoming more and more rare because of the in- depth nature of these.

Elise Hu (32:39):

Yeah. How do they pay for it?

Lauren Passell (32:41):

Good question. I mean, actually, I think it might be part of a bigger media outlet or something like that

Elise Hu (32:48):

Because that's questioning this and I'm like, "That's tens of thousands of dollars per episode at least."

Lauren Passell (32:52):

Yeah. People are always like, "How do podcasters getting money?" I'm like, "Find an anonymous rich investor." That's

Elise Hu (33:00):

The only interest I have. Yeah. Everybody needs

Lauren Passell (33:02):

A patron. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone needs like a bunch of patrons are good, but one big patron maybe. And something I just finished is called The Birthkeepers, and it's about the Free Birth Society. This is like her name. Oh

Doree Shafrir (33:16):

Yeah.

Lauren Passell (33:17):

It's absolutely wild. I mean, the stuff that the tape, all this footage and stuff like that. And then, oh, and gosh, I'm going all out of order. I'm really sorry, but I thought of one more, one more. Draw my sentimental garbage. Have you heard of it? No. Uh-uh. It started out as book podcast. They're just talking about books.

(33:40)
Caroline O'Donoghue is the host of Sentimental Garbage. And I think when COVID started, she started reviewing Sex in the City and that kind of got her on the path of movies. And it is just the smartest ... It is you talking to your best friend at Smartest Best Friends about every movie you've ever loved, every TV series, every ... They did an episode on Disney World, which I loved. So different kinds of media and stuff now, but that is my safe place for going to listen to people talk about things that I love. And I know that every single one I'm going ... That's a no-brainer. I listen to every single episode on Unsentimental Garbage.

Elise Hu (34:20):

Oh, that's such a good wreck. It seems like it would be really up my alley. Yeah, I think so. All right. Lauren, we've gotten just such a bevy of recommendations from you. We're already almost at time. So before we let you go, you just did your whole year in review, your big roundup for your newsletter. Were there any major trends that you saw in either the industry or in what you were hearing in the output of the industry that are helping you get a window into what's in store for us in 2026 in the audio landscape?

Lauren Passell (34:58):

This isn't that new, but celebrities are just continuing to take over. I think this year was the pivot to video year. So everyone is feeling like they have to be on video and the one unfortunate ... I mean, I'm an audio person and I'm starting to notice that podcasters are doing things visually and forgetting that they have listeners there. I know that's not exactly what you're asking for, but I'm not a fan of that. One fun thing I'm kind of noticing is interesting kinds of interviews that aren't just people getting on a mic, like maybe interviewing each other in interesting places. There's a podcast called Walking About. It's a Max Fun show and this comedian goes on walks with people in LA and New York. So the interview is in a place and it's going places. One of the biggest podcasts, I think it's only about a year old, it's called Strangers on a Bench.

(35:57)
And this guy goes up to strangers on a bench and has conversations with them. And I can't explain what on earth he's doing. It's gorgeous. Some of these people get really, really honest about it. So I think that's something I'm starting to notice that there's Subway Takes as a podcast now. So I think people are getting a little more creative about how to have interviews.

Elise Hu (36:19):

Yeah. Yeah. Liz Plank does it in her bed. Oh, I didn't even know this. Yeah. It's a lot of interviews in bed. Love it. It's fun. All right, Lauren, this was just fantastic. And getting all of these recommendations from you, tell folks where they can find you or how they can subscribe to your writing.

Lauren Passell (36:39):

I would love for you to check out podcast the newsletter. If you're looking for new podcasts, it's on Substack, but if you go to podcastthewsletter.com, it's all there. And I'm not really on social media anymore. You don't need to be. Yeah. No. My newsletter is where you can find me. Fantastic. And then I'm at syncmedia.co if you want to learn more about all this other stuff that I do. Everything, that's my hub. That's where everything I do lives.

Doree Shafrir (37:07):

Amazing. This was so fun. Thank you, Lauren.

Lauren Passell (37:10):

Thank you.

Doree Shafrir (37:13):

Well, that was fun to hear about some podcasts and get to talk to Lauren. And I love the little niche she's carved out for herself.

Elise Hu (37:22):

And a lot of those recommendations came really fast and furious. So be sure to check out our website forever35podcast.com for our show notes where you can see every recommendation that she mentioned and start listening for yourself if you aren't already.

Doree Shafrir (37:39):

All right. Let's go into the intention zone. Elise, how are your finances?

Elise Hu (37:47):

Okay. I was doing better because Claude told me that-

Doree Shafrir (37:52):

Love Claude.

Elise Hu (37:53):

Yep. I was spending way too much money on beverages, fun drinks because my daughter really likes fun drinks.

Doree Shafrir (38:02):

What is a fun drink?

Elise Hu (38:03):

A strawberry asai refresher.

Doree Shafrir (38:07):

Got it.

Elise Hu (38:07):

Or a milkshake. My daughter's like, "Can we get a fun drink? Can we get a fun beverage after school a lot?" And so then I've put a moratorium on fun drinks. You're going to drink water out of your water bottle.

Doree Shafrir (38:20):

Okay. A

Elise Hu (38:21):

Fun drink

Doree Shafrir (38:21):

Moratorium.

Elise Hu (38:23):

I tried that, or I'm trying that. We can still do one fun drink a week or something. I took her to get a Slurpee on Tuesday. Slurpy though, far more affordable than a strawberry Asai refresher. And so anyway, I at least had a look at the picture in order to cut back on spending, but I also went to New York for a week, which just steals your money. New York makes me love

Doree Shafrir (38:50):

It

Elise Hu (38:50):

And takes all my money. That's like my one line about New York again and again. It always makes me feel so alive and I come home like, what happened?

Doree Shafrir (39:01):

Yeah, totally. Totally.

Elise Hu (39:04):

It's just a going out culture. You are always out and doing stuff that's out and eating out. And then the daughters wanted to have experiences like museums aren't free. It's like 30 bucks, something like that for tickets. Everything we do, we have to multiply by five. Broadway show. Even a cheap ticket was like $1120 multiply by five. It's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. I don't know. I guess I've made some baby steps. What about you? Remind me your intention.

Doree Shafrir (39:37):

My intention was like my 2026 plan.

Elise Hu (39:42):

Yeah. Oh my gosh. We didn't even talk about this at the top of the show or any recent ones. What is going on with

Doree Shafrir (39:47):

That? I feel like things have been set in motion. I feel like I can't really say anything else, unfortunately, but I'm feeling cautiously optimistic that there will be some positive changes in 2026.

Elise Hu (40:05):

Okay. Good. Exciting. All right. Well, tell us when you can.

Doree Shafrir (40:09):

I will. And then this week, I just want to have fun in the desert and not stress too much about whether we win or lose or whatever. What about you?

Elise Hu (40:19):

I have to drink water. I don't know if I've done this contention recently, but I've really got to drink water. In winter, I'm so dry and leathery. I just feel constantly like I'm like a dehydrated mushroom from three body problem when the humans became dehydrated mushrooms. So yeah. Drinking water, it sounds like it's easy, but for me, it's a little tough because of all the fun drinks, because of all the fun drinks. One intention could solve the other. Yes. Yeah.

Doree Shafrir (40:55):

Maybe you need one of those water bottles that gives you the ... It has markings for the time of day. Yes.

Elise Hu (41:06):

I need alone. Keep going. I need a lot of encouragement to drink

Doree Shafrir (41:09):

Water. Yeah. You need a water bottle that's encouraging you. Yes. Well, Elise, great to see you. Listeners, thanks so much. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sammee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone. Take care. We'll talk to you on Wednesday. Bye.

 
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