Episode 367: Be A Try Hard with Alex Laughlin
Alex Laughlin, writer, audio producer and the creator of Normal Gossip joins Doree and Elise to discuss her new show Try Hard and why it’s important to her be earnest, how she went from self-taught audio producer to building an award-winning show, and what it’s like to step away from a successful project to pursue other creative endeavors.
Photo Credit: K.O. Photography
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode is AI generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree Shafrir (00:21):
And today we have a great guest, Alex Sujong Laughlin, who I sort of knew at Buzzfeed, but she is an amazing podcast producer and host and writer, and she's just done some really cool stuff. She's a great new podcast called Try Hard, but in the meantime, Elise, how are you?
Elise Hu (00:42):
Well, I had a big weekend. I had a big weekend and I have a big night coming up tonight, which is sort of on the same theme. I dunno if you know about this. Do, oh boy. I'm sure some of our listeners are hip to this. It is the 25 year anniversary of Nelly's Country Grammar album. Wow. And I went to the University of Missouri and was a freshman there in the year 2000. So there was no bigger song. Nelly is St. Louis's biggest hype man of all time. And so
Doree Shafrir (01:15):
St. Louis' own.
Elise Hu (01:17):
Exactly. St. Louis' Own. But I can't even, when I think about the way that Nelly really associates with St. Louis, I can't think of anybody else who associates with St. Louis as strongly and
Doree Shafrir (01:29):
Oh, that's interesting
Elise Hu (01:30):
As Nelly. I mean, who else can we think of? There's baseball players, Ozzy Smith, he was huge. St. Louis Cardinals, Ellie Kempers, yep. She's from St. Louis. She was big from the office. I don't know why we know that she's from St. Louis. I think maybe Jenna Fisher too right now that we're thinking about the office cast. But anyway, so I think of Nelly and I think of St. Louis and I think of being in college at the University of Missouri just after country Grammar came out. It was 25 years ago. It was the year 2000. And so there was no bigger song. Rush Week 2000 at the University of Missouri, then Nelly's Country Grammar. And it's the one with I'm from the LU and I'm proud. But there was also,
(02:22)
Yeah, yeah, there was also EI the one that was Onlay and Le Mama. Yeah. So that one was on from that album. And then Ride Whitney is on that album, which is just one banger after another. I haven't seen Nelly Live. I saw him in person during Ferguson when I was covering Ferguson, which happened in St. Louis, Nelly came out to support the protestors and the demonstrators. I saw him there, but never heard him sing live. So finally got to see Nelly last weekend and he was performing with the one and only Ja Rule and E. It was huge. The mom friends organized this. So the moms of my third grader, they were all elder millennials like me, and knew every line of every song I had already seen Ja Rule and Eve Live, but the last time I had seen them together was my 21st birthday
Doree Shafrir (03:20):
When
Elise Hu (03:20):
I was still in college at the University of Missouri. So it was a real full circle moment to see Jaw, to see Jah again. And then tonight my friend Cal had last minute tickets to see Wait for It, baby Face and Casey of Casey and Jojo at the Hollywood Bowl. No, I'm really reliving the youth, reliving the youth rap and r and b hits and performers. I didn't get to go see Backstreet Boys at the Sphere. So many other friends of mine did, but I feel like I got a full throwback experience. Love it. With this buffet of performers. Love it. That's kind of like the big headline in my world and the kids being back to school and Ava's doing volleyball practice. What about you? Tell me about your weekend. Catch me up. What's happening?
Doree Shafrir (04:20):
What is happening? Elise? That's a great question. What did I do this past weekend? I had a tennis match on Sunday. We lost. It was a good match though. It was a mixed match. I don't love mixed doubles. It's not like my fav, but it was fun. I like my doubles partner, so that was really fun. And then I mentioned this on the casual chat, but I did get microneedling yesterday, which is kind of cool. I've been microneedling curious for a long time and finally decided to just take the plunge as it were. So yeah, so that's exciting. I was super red yesterday. They said I would be red for 48 hours and today I'm not really red.
Elise Hu (05:16):
No, you
Doree Shafrir (05:17):
Don't look red. Yeah, my skin does feel kind of tight and itchy, but I'm not bright red, so that's good.
Elise Hu (05:24):
Is microneedling very expensive? I've only done it in Korea whose prices are a fraction for every cosmetic procedure.
Doree Shafrir (05:33):
It's not insanely expensive. I think it's cheaper than most lasers.
Elise Hu (05:38):
Okay, okay. I really want to do IPL again, but I hear that in the States it's like 500 to a thousand or something like that.
Doree Shafrir (05:48):
Yeah, I think that's generally how much it is.
Elise Hu (05:52):
Well, I will put this question out then to you and any of our listeners. I have always had freckles. I like my freckles. They always come out in full force when it's summer and times of high UV and everything. And I've noticed the freckles are quite prominent, that's fine. But some of my freckles are bigger than freckles. They're sun spots or they're just dark spots. Those I don't like as much. So what should I be using on, I don't know if I need to be using, is it glycolic acid or something specific on the area where I'm actually getting sunspots?
Doree Shafrir (06:31):
I would use a lot of vitamin C, but then I would also probably get them either lasered or frozen off because
Elise Hu (06:41):
Is that also going to
Doree Shafrir (06:42):
Be super expensive? It's not that much. I mean nothing is going to be like $50, but it's not like thousands of dollars. And the thing is they will come back if you don't stay out of the sun. It's not a permanent thing to your face, but they can get rid of the specific ones. I've gotten both done. I think the laser is good if you have a lot of spots you want to get rid of and the freezing is good, especially if you have larger ones. I had a couple one on my leg and one on my arm that I wanted to get rid of that were kind of big. And so if you have them in different areas, sometimes just freezing off these individual spots
Elise Hu (07:29):
Is
Doree Shafrir (07:30):
The best way to go. But your dermatologist can tell you what they recommend. Yeah.
Elise Hu (07:34):
Okay, I'll go talk to her. My dermatologist is a woman I met in a book club
Doree Shafrir (07:39):
That tracks for you. Meeting Elise's friends is so funny because it's like, oh, how do you know Elise? And it's either like I was her college roommate or it's like we met in an airport.
Elise Hu (07:55):
A lot of people are like dudes I used to date. There's so many. And then they all have nicknames because as you know, I nickname the dudes that I dated and so they'll show up at the party and I'm like, oh, that's tabloid Joel. And that's Canadian Tim, and that's British Tim. Funny. Dating was fun, funny because I got to collect some new friends. That's funny. The ones that
Doree Shafrir (08:15):
Were oh my gosh.
Elise Hu (08:16):
That you could keep. Obviously
Doree Shafrir (08:19):
It's case by case. It's case by Case. Yes, of course, of course. Well, Elise, should we introduce our guest?
Elise Hu (08:26):
Yes, let's do it. Alex Laughlin is a writer and audio producer, the work she's most proud of, interrogates Power in relation to visibility, narrative making and collective memory. And you can see how that plays out in her work. As an audio producer, you probably know her work at Normal Gossip as the creator, co-creator and producer of the Iconic podcast, normal Gossip. She loves to talk about her hobbies, which are weightlifting and knitting and her trash cat pong. She's a supervising producer and co-owner at Defector Media. And as Dorie mentioned, she's the host of a really exciting new podcast called Try Hard, which we get into in our conversation.
Doree Shafrir (09:13):
And before we get to our chat with Alex, just a reminder that you can visit our website Forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we and our guests mention on the show. We are on Instagram at Forever35 Podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com/forever35. We have our casual chats there. We have our monthly pop culture recommendation episodes. We have ad-free episodes. There's a lot happening over there, so check that out at patreon.com/forever35. Our favorite products are at Shopmy.us/forever35, and our newsletter is at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And please call or text us at (781) 591-0390. You can also email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. You can also email us a voice memo at Forever35podcast@gmail. Do please do not text us voice memos. Google Voice doesn't like that. Alright, we will be right back with Alex.
Elise Hu (10:09):
We'll be right back.
Doree Shafrir (10:17):
Alex, welcome to Forever35. We are so happy to have you on the show.
Alex Laughlin (10:23):
Oh, I am so t to be here. I have been a Forever35 listener since I was closer to 25, and now I am closer to 35, which is really exciting. Oh my. Wow.
Doree Shafrir (10:36):
Yeah, the show's been around for a while. Well, as you know, we do like to start off by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So is there anything that you would like to share that you would consider self-care right now?
Alex Laughlin (10:51):
So I'm always in a fight with my phone for dominance over my brain. And so I have all kinds of apps that keep me off of my phone at night and in the mornings, and I mostly listen to them, but sometimes I bypass them because I'm addicted to technology. But when I do manage to let my better side win and stay off of the internet, I really like journaling in the morning.
Doree Shafrir (11:24):
Oh, nice.
Alex Laughlin (11:25):
I did the artist's way earlier this year with a lot of my colleagues from Defector and it got me into the habit of several months in a row, journaling every morning first thing in the morning. And I don't know how I did that, but I'd like to get back to it. It was
Doree Shafrir (11:41):
Great. And you were writing the Artist Way. Has you write longhand? So you were writing longhand?
Alex Laughlin (11:47):
Yeah, by hand. I have this journal, it's actually right here, it's called a Louise Carbon Journal, and it's kind of like a big thing on TikTok among paper freaks, but it's a traveler's notebook, so you have four notebooks in here, so they all serve different purposes and then you can replace them once you fill them up. So the journal itself is this beautiful leather product that I have my initials on it, and this gets to stay with me and then I can just switch out the notebooks that are
Doree Shafrir (12:21):
Inside. Wait, this is very cool. And I might be, I'm not totally a paper freak, but I do like a notebook. It's a good notebook. So I'm tempted.
Elise Hu (12:33):
Can you break down the different purposes that the four notebooks in their serve?
Alex Laughlin (12:39):
I would love to. Oh my gosh. Okay. So the first one is for a long-term project that I have yet to announce,
(12:48)
But I can tell you guys about it later. The second one is my diary, just my classic, these are my feelings. This is where I do morning pages or any other kind of complaining. The next one is, I call it work and logistics. So it's to-do lists. It's like at the beginning of each week I sit down and I make a master to-do list that has sections for all of my different projects and personal life. And then each day I pull from that giant weekly to-do list and decide what needs to get done that day. And then the last one is my media journal where I write about books I read and movies I've watched because I realized last year that I had read so many books and I couldn't remember a single one and I didn't have any opinions about them.
Elise Hu (13:41):
I keep a spreadsheet so that I can highlight the ones that I liked and then that way I can go back and when people ask me for recommendations, they're like, Hey, what stood out to you this year? I'm actually like, okay, let me check
Doree Shafrir (13:53):
Smart. I also
Elise Hu (13:54):
Do this when people ask me how old my kids are, I just have to go back to the spreadsheet. It has their birth dates and it automatically counts. It's like, oh yeah, this one is 13 now.
Alex Laughlin (14:04):
But I used to use Good Reads for years, but I realized that at a certain point I was performing for Good Reads. I was so aware of what people would think if they saw how many books I read, did I meet my goal for the year? What books was I reading? I was like, this is not what reading is about actually.
Elise Hu (14:25):
Yeah, yeah. My Good Reads is so chaotic because it only counts what I happen to read on an e-reader that asks me, do you want to say that you're reading this on Good Reads? And so anytime I read on paper or I read PDF or I audio book, it's just not counted. And so it's better to just keep track on your own. Well, if you were to open that up, Alex, the fourth notebook, the one with media consumption, what stands out to you? What shows or books really struck you this year or did you find most compelling that we want to give you the floor before we talk about your projects?
Alex Laughlin (15:00):
Yeah, I read an essay collection earlier this year called American Bulk by Emily Messer, and it's an essay collection that's about essentially excess in all of its forms. So Master is a sort of admitted shopaholic. And so she writes essays about shopping addiction, but also just the thrill and also the sickness of acquiring things. And it's so beautiful. And also really, she's really not afraid to make herself look ugly or unappealing in a way that I found incredibly comforting and also really interesting to read.
Elise Hu (15:42):
Okay, love that. I
Alex Laughlin (15:43):
Loved it. So
Doree Shafrir (15:44):
Good. So Alex, you have a new podcast called Try Hard. I do. And we'd love to hear a little bit about the show, the origin story behind it, what you've been doing with it so far. Just tell us all the things.
Alex Laughlin (16:02):
Yeah. So Try Hard is a show where I get together with a person and I'm like, if you could do anything, if you had all the time in the world or the excuse to do it, or $500 we do help reimburse people, what would you do? And I am really obsessed with this because I think that everybody has that thing that they wish they could do if they just admitted to themselves that they wanted to do it or gave themselves the time to actually try it. And once I started talking about this project, even just among friends, they were like, oh yeah, I always wished I could sketch more. I really love sketching and I just don't do it enough. It was really exciting, even before the show launched to see the way that these conversations were percolating in my social groups, I was like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to see what happens on a bigger scale. So on the show I get with a person and I'm like, what would you do? What would your thing be? And then we talk through why they haven't done it yet, what are the blocks? Because usually there's a block that you have in your mind, but then that's actually a stand-in for other reasons that are a lot bigger and kind of port over to other parts of your life too.
(17:21)
And so we talk through that, it's kind of a therapy session, and then we set a goal together and they go do the thing.
Elise Hu (17:26):
Give us examples of things that you have helped people get to do or try.
Alex Laughlin (17:32):
So on the first episode, I had Maddie Lip chansky take a group yoga class. So that's something that's really ordinary. It's something that you don't get a medal for necessarily, but she had really serious anxiety about doing fitness in a group context. She's a trans woman. And so the gendered aspect of yoga classes in particular, it just heightened the anxiety of all of it. And so she did a couple of weeks of yoga with Adrian videos at home, and then she went to a yoga class and she almost didn't do it. She almost bailed on me, but she didn't. Oh wow. Yeah, she made it through. And the thing is she didn't go to the class and suddenly all of her problems are fixed and now she's a master yogi, but she has broken that seal of anxiety where she's like, okay, I've done it. I can do it again.
Elise Hu (18:39):
What do you feel like is yours if another podcast host who kind of played your role in this show came to you and said if you were free of any sort of barriers, financial or otherwise, what would you want to try?
Alex Laughlin (18:53):
I feel like I live my life in a very try hard way as it is. So in the last couple of years, I have taken banjo lessons, I've taken voice lessons, I auditioned for a play, and I was in a play earlier this year, which that's the first time I've done theater since middle school. But I think that honestly, hosting a show is my try hard. And so me hosting this show is me actively doing the thing that I really wanted to do and haven't done yet because I was kind of embarrassed to admit that I wanted to host and not just produce.
Doree Shafrir (19:35):
I love the title of the show because the term try hard has become so derogatory, and there's this idea that if you are a try hard, then you're just kind of a loser. And I love that you're kind of reclaiming this term, right? Because it shouldn't be derogatory to want to try something new and to actually put yourself out there and do something. And I think there's this association of being a try hard with being a millennial and I dunno, I'm just wondering if being cringe. Yeah, millennial cringe. And I'm wondering if that was kind of a deliberate choice and what your thinking was behind naming the show. Try hard.
Alex Laughlin (20:25):
Yeah, I mean, try Hard was the name of the show from the very beginning, and I experimented with naming it other things, but in my heart I was like, this is what this is.
(20:35)
This is the ethos, this is the vibe. I know what it is. I have never been accused of being cool, and I have no interest in trying to be cool. I have tried in the past in my adolescence, and it feels fake and it also is not as fun. And the times that I've had the most fun in my life are when I just sort of let go of the need to perform in some way or seem like I have it figured out. I think the most valuable things in life, you get access to them once you have let yourself drop the facade of I've got it, I know what I'm doing. You have to look and feel a little stupid to do anything of value. I think
Elise Hu (21:31):
Millennials are known as being too earnest and then Gen Z is cool and irreverent and maybe at a remove. How did this happen? What is the cost of it?
Alex Laughlin (21:44):
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a real thing. I think I heard on another podcast that I think it was on Hunter Harris's podcast. They said that the greatest indicator of a millennial is whether you thought working at Buzzfeed was cool, and as to Buzzfeed alums here guilty. I think that it speaks definitely to where the politics of the world has been in the last 20 years. There was a brief glimmering moment of hope for millennials, but for Gen Z, it's kind of been bad on top of bad the whole time. And so I don't begrudge anybody who feels a sense of nihilism or wants to protect themselves with a layer of sarcasm
(22:43)
Or irony, but that's something that is just not really accessible to me. And I've tried to access it because I think it seems cool. I work at Defector, which is a very snarky place, and everybody's very cool there, and they have interesting opinions and they're very critique heavy. And I just on the fan to hater spectrum, I'm always going to air on the side of fan because I'm just like, wow, it's so cool that you guys made this thing. And I know it's goofy and it's like, I don't know. I think there's stuff to be gained from both sides. I think that being too credulous about the culture you're consuming or the politics of the moment you're in is definitely harmful. But I also think that you hurt yourself if you close yourself off from earnestness.
Doree Shafrir (23:39):
Yeah, I mean, it's so funny to look back on buzzfeed now as this sort of historical artifact, but it was this very particular moment in time, and I'm more on the Gen X side of things. So we came at things from a very ironic standpoint. And so initially for me, the sort of earnestness of Buzzfeed was a little bit like, whoa, where am I? But then I grew to embrace it. I was like, oh, this is actually a nicer way to live.
Elise Hu (24:18):
Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree Shafrir (24:28):
You mentioned Defector, and I actually wanted to ask you about Defector, which is a successful employee owned media company, which is very rare. Could you explain to our listeners what defector is if they're not familiar with it and what the sort of structure of it is as well?
Alex Laughlin (24:49):
Yeah. So Defector Media is a cooperatively owned website. We cover sports politics and pop culture. We do a lot of media criticism as well. And the structure is that we have, I think it's either 27 or 28 employees, and all of us are co-owners. We are all equal co-owners of the company. And what that means is that any major decisions, hiring, firing business decisions where we take on contracts or salary decisions, how much people are paid, all of that is voted on by the company, which is really, really cool. And yeah, I've been working with Defector for four years. We're about to have our fifth birthday. I got involved right around their first birthday and then became full-time about a year later. And so I've gotten to see how the company's grown, which is really cool. And it's a lot of work. It's very hard. Every stereotype you can imagine about the Park Slope co-op, apply that to media, and here you are. It's hours long discussions about whether to start a Slack channel about something. But what I always tell people is, yes, it's a lot of work. It's frustrating sometimes, but it's such an honor to be doing this kind of hard work and to be dealing with these problems as opposed to our billionaire boss has decided to pivot to being a Republican.
Elise Hu (26:36):
And then now we don't have editorial pages or whatever it is that's going on at the Washington Post. You and Kelsey worked together. Kelsey McKinney, who's also been on this show and formerly hosted normal gossip, is also still a defector. You and Kelsey worked together at Buzzfeed, right? If I'm remembering correctly? No, no. How did you two come together and make Kelsey never
Alex Laughlin (26:57):
Worked at Buzzfeed? Oh my gosh. She didn't. She was of the milieu, but she never crossed its doors, actually. So Kelsey and I have such a funny origin story. Well, okay, so Elise, I know you because through your dad. Yeah, because my dad was in the tech world in Austin when you were in Austin, and he was like, I know someone who works at NPR. And I was like, oh my God. So I was this really thirsty college student who really just wanted to be around audio, and I was trying to meet everybody. I
Elise Hu (27:33):
I knew Alex's dad first, correct?
Alex Laughlin (27:35):
Yes. That's funny.
Elise Hu (27:36):
Also, hung out with your mom. We've hung out with your mom in Korea.
Alex Laughlin (27:40):
You have the rare honor of having met love both of my divorced parents. Anyway, I swear this connects to normal gossip. But so in college, I was this really like girl bossy, try hard, want to be journalist. And I applied for a fellowship at what would become fox.com. At the time it was called Project X, and it was a recline, really interesting new blog that he was starting. And I interviewed for it. I did a couple rounds, I think I was in the final rounds, and then I didn't get the job and I was heartbroken and who got the job. But one, Kelsey McKinney, a fellow graduate who was graduating from ut, I was graduating from UGA, so I was like, this bitch, she was your
Elise Hu (28:39):
Rival.
Alex Laughlin (28:40):
We have the same resume. What is going on?
Elise Hu (28:42):
Oh, you two are an enemies to lovers trope.
Alex Laughlin (28:45):
Yeah, I mean, it was only on my end. She didn't know I existed, but I followed her on Twitter then. And then through the years, we both lived in DC and we had mutual friends, but we never really met. We were Twitter buddies because we both watched The Bachelor. We both listened to Taylor Swift and whenever a new album would come out, we'd both be tweeting about it. But we didn't start working together until 2021. And it was when I had quit my job at a production company and I decided to go freelance. And somebody sent me this listing for a podcast producer job at Defector that was just a contract gig. And I had a call, and then I had another call, and then Kelsey and I met, and it was like, I don't know, we fell in love. It was like love at first sight. And we had a really special creative
Elise Hu (29:41):
Collaboration
Alex Laughlin (29:43):
Where it's rare that you have these, and I've only had it once or twice in my life where you're just really on the same wavelength and you also compliment each other in really good ways. And so yeah, normal gossip for me was supposed to be a three month contract through my first winter of freelancing. I was like, I'm done producing podcasts for a while, so I'll just do this for three months while I'm getting on my feet freelancing. Wow. Yeah. It completely changed my life.
Elise Hu (30:12):
Yeah. Yeah.
Doree Shafrir (30:13):
That's so cool. I also know the feeling of being up for a job and then seeing who got it and being curses, but also this person actually seems cool, funny. I can't
Alex Laughlin (30:30):
Hate them. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, I would hate you, but I think you're really
Doree Shafrir (30:35):
Awesome. So let's be friends. Yeah. I mean, normal gossip became such a phenomenon, and I'm wondering, how has it been for you stepping away from this hugely successful show?
Alex Laughlin (30:52):
It's so many feelings. For this past season, I was still very involved with the show, so I was in every meeting, I was listening to every draft. I was giving edits on everything. But right now, the team is in pre-production for the next season, and I am not a part of selecting the stories for the first time ever. And oh wow. It's really complicated. I'm really proud of them for what they're doing, and they're taking it in their own direction and putting their own mark on it. And I was ready to step away, but it's still complicated to move on, and it's definitely a little scary to be like, who am I without normal gossip? But that's part of why I am working on a new project.
Elise Hu (31:46):
Yeah, exactly. And not just that one, but the other one in your other notebooks. So
Alex Laughlin (31:50):
Yes, secret project.
Elise Hu (31:52):
Yeah. It seems like you are in a time of creative experimentation and abundance, which is fantastic. Now that you're sort of looking back on a time in your life that really a creative collaboration that was very fruitful for you, and then a project that ended up making such an imprint and such a cultural impact, what do you feel like you've taken away from it?
Alex Laughlin (32:19):
When I started producing normal gossip, I had been a producer for several years at that point. I had worked on dozens of shows. I'd launched dozens of shows of all different types of styles. And I hadn't worked in my own voice in a really long time
Doree Shafrir (32:38):
Because
Alex Laughlin (32:39):
I was working at buzzfeed or I was working at a production company where we were making shows for other clients. I was making a show for Morgan Stanley or for Google or whatever. So you're writing in their voice, you're creating in their voice. And that is a really great way to train doing part of being creative, but it's less good for training your actual voice and expressing who you are. So when I was starting at normal gossip, I had the freedom to make a lot of weird choices, whether that was really literal sound design or really, really stupid jokes that I thought were really funny. And I remember when I turned in the episodes, I was shocked that nobody sort of reigned me back in. Usually what happens, I had people editing me, people were giving me feedback, but it wasn't the way that it usually had been at previous jobs where they were like, oh, we need to completely rethink how we're doing this because this is not at all the voice that we want to be using. And when the show came out, those parts of the production, the sort of cartoonish sound design and the silliness of it were the things that really resonated with people. And I got word from people at other production companies who said that they were getting pitches using my sound design as comps for the shows they wanted to produce. They wanted to go into a more silly, funny place. And I thought that was so wild because it was just what my instinct had told me to do is what I felt like doing.
(34:26)
So this is all to say that I think that there's something to be said about putting in the years and really doing the work that you don't really want to do for a long time, and then coming out the other end and knowing what you want to make, that's really rewarding. And I was able to trust myself to make choices that I thought were going to be good and really feel good about those choices. Does that make Sensely, I feel like I just rambled so much.
Elise Hu (34:59):
No, no. That totally tracks. And I think it's a real luxury or a privilege to get to a place in your career where you can be selective and you can say, no, that's not in line with my soul, or that's not in line with my creative leanings or instincts. And then also just learning to trust your instincts it sounds like is such an important takeaway.
Alex Laughlin (35:21):
Yeah, because my training and audio is fairly unconventional in that I never worked in public radio. I had one internship at my local public radio station where I digitized CDs.
Elise Hu (35:36):
Oh, okay. But you didn't have to crash at it for Morning Edition. So many people in audio have
Alex Laughlin (35:42):
No, I did not have that kind of experience. I didn't go to school for this. I taught myself how to produce audio on Audacity, which is the shittiest. I mean, I don't want to talk shit about an app on Audacity, which is just the most basic free software that you could use. And then my way up was through new podcasting. So I didn't learn from the public radio people directly, but I learned from people who learned from 'em. And so there was a lot of insecurity for a long time where I was like, yeah, I'm here. I have this job, but I don't really know how to produce audio. I don't really know what I'm doing. I still kind of feel like that sometimes.
Elise Hu (36:31):
Girl,
Doree Shafrir (36:33):
I'm wondering, I am wondering, do you have advice for people, whether they are young people or older people who want to get into audio? I know the industry has been going through a lot of changes lately, and I don't even want to get into video podcasting, but I'm like, I got into this to not be on camera too bad. But I'm wondering, what would you advise people to do if they're interested in getting into podcasting From the producer side,
Alex Laughlin (37:13):
I think the two biggest things are, one, listen to a lot of stuff and know what you like and know why you like it. That's really, really important. I think there's a surprising number of people who want to get into podcasting who don't actually consume the medium at all, which is weird to me. Why would you want to do that? But then the second thing is I think you should just get started. I was talking to a recent grad today actually, and giving her advice about how to proceed, and I told her that there are so many more resources today for teaching you how to start a podcast than there were 10 years ago. It's infinitely easier to start a podcast. Everything is so streamlined. There are so many softwares that exist now that didn't exist before. And so I think that just putting yourself out there and making a thing, even if it's bad, especially if it's bad, that's the fastest way to get to where you want to go. Because nobody's going to be like, Hey, you 23-year-old with a dream. How's about you pick up a mic? Nobody's going to say that. You have to show them that you want to do this thing and that you can do this thing.
Elise Hu (38:38):
Love it. And it's so in line with the ethos of the show. And you, the podcast is called Try Hard. You can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Alex, where can folks find you?
Alex Laughlin (38:54):
I'm on Instagram at Alex Laughs. I'm also on Blue Sky at Alex Laughs, but I don't really post that much there.
Elise Hu (39:01):
I feel like I couldn't really, I wasn't hanging out on Blue Sky. I know I was told to and everything, and it just wasn't part my, I still have yet to make it part of my diet, my internet diet.
Alex Laughlin (39:15):
I dunno, I'll go on there a couple times a week, but I don't think I follow enough people for it to be valuable. So it's just kind of the same stuff over and over again.
Elise Hu (39:25):
Yeah, how I long for the days that TweetDeck existed, and I could just keep that in a tap.
Alex Laughlin (39:33):
I was just thinking the other day about how in the tweet deck days, I would have a tweet deck open of four different columns going,
Doree Shafrir (39:42):
And
Alex Laughlin (39:43):
It was just on its own monitor, and then I was doing my work. I can't believe we lived like that. So yeah,
Elise Hu (39:50):
I felt better informed though too. I kind of had a pulse on things that now I feel completely divorced from. There's so many silos of information and conversation that I'm just not part of or I'm not even aware of.
Alex Laughlin (40:04):
Oh, totally.
Elise Hu (40:05):
Yeah. RIP tweet deck.
Alex Laughlin (40:08):
Yeah,
Doree Shafrir (40:08):
It
Elise Hu (40:08):
Was real
Doree Shafrir (40:09):
RIP Twitter. Alex, thank you so much. It was so great to get to talk to you. And you and I were talking before we started recording about how we both worked at Buzzfeed, but we never really worked together, so it's really nice to get to chat with you. Thank you. Oh,
Alex Laughlin (40:24):
Thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting for me to be on because I've watched you guys from afar for many years.
Doree Shafrir (40:34):
Yay. Alex is so cool. And I know we overlapped at Buzzfeed, but I'm sad that we never got to work together maybe one day.
Elise Hu (40:45):
Yeah, you were on different coasts, right? So it was hard
Doree Shafrir (40:47):
To, we were on different coasts and I didn't work with the podcast team directly, even though I was friends with a lot of them. So yeah. So we never really overlapped all Elise, how is the old crowdfunding going?
Elise Hu (41:05):
Oh, yes, that was my intention last week. But we got a little behind. We got a little behind in getting the crowdfund widely shared. So I'll probably be crowdfunding and beginning that process this week, and we'll talk about it I guess on our next casual chat. So my intention this week as we head into Labor Day weekend is to stay chill. Stay chill because have four days straight with my kids again, just after they went back to school, they're home because we have LA USD, which is where my kids go to school. They have Friday off for some reason. And so I have Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday four days straight of lots of hours to have to plan or occupy with the children. So I'm just trying to keep it chill, keep it chill. So maybe my intention is keep nervous system regulated.
Doree Shafrir (42:05):
Wish
Elise Hu (42:05):
Me luck.
Doree Shafrir (42:07):
I like that. Good luck. Good luck.
Elise Hu (42:10):
What about you? Let's check in on
Doree Shafrir (42:12):
Your, well, I said I was going to figure out a strength routine last week, and I did not do that. It just ended up being a little bit of a crazy week. And so I did not have a chance to do that. And I might, do you want to re-up it then? I might re-up it, because I can't work out until outside. That's today Wednesday. Yeah. No, I can't work out until Friday. Oh, okay. You can't sweat do anything, even if you're, you're inside. Yeah. Just because they don't want any bacteria to enter the skin.
Elise Hu (42:43):
Yeah. Or something.
Doree Shafrir (42:44):
I don't know. But
Elise Hu (42:47):
Can Good aftercare, good aftercare,
Doree Shafrir (42:48):
Good aftercare. Yeah. But I can pick that up on Friday and see how that goes. So maybe I'll re-up that again. Okay. Let's do it. Well listen everybody, thank you so much for listening. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced an edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone.
Elise Hu (43:10):
Talk to you soon.
Doree Shafrir (43:11):
Bye.