Episode 351: Do Something, Somewhere, Soon with Stacey Abrams

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Written By Forever 35 Podcast

The unstoppable author and voting rights activist Stacey Abrams joins Doree and Elise to share her magnetic charisma and talk through the importance of pairing empathy with action, what it looks like to commit to the craft of imagination, and how to overcome fear in your daily life. 

Photo Credit: Kevin Lowery

Transcript

 

The transcript for this episode Ai generated.

Doree (00:10):

Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.

Elise (00:16):

And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Doree (00:20):

Elise, I was just looking at my calendar for next week and I realized I have my six month check-in with my dermatologist about how my hair regrowth stuff has been going.

Elise (00:36):

How has it been going? What will you be telling your dermatologist?

Doree (00:39):

Well, he's going to take pictures. He has some fancy camera that takes closeup pictures of your hair. So it's not just going to be like, how are you feeling? It's going to be like, let's compare the pictures. So I'm really curious to see what that looks like because it feels to me like I have more hair, I'm losing less hair, and I have hair growing in. Great. I've also noticed my eyebrows getting bushier.

Elise (01:13):

Oh yeah.

Doree (01:15):

I think this conversation. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just really curious to see whether it's psychosomatic, is my hair really growing? You know what I mean? So I will report back because I will be seeing him in a few days.

Elise (01:33):

Was this an extension of postpartum hair loss or a new episode or happening, or were you noticing it was happening over time?

Doree (01:43):

So I definitely had postpartum hair loss, and then I feel like it sort of stabilized and then I felt like I, especially within the last year, year and a half, it felt to me I was losing a lot more hair. And when I went to my dermatologist about it, at first he was like, oh, it's probably a Telium effluvium, which is brought on by stress usually. And I had had an episode of that before 15 years ago, and your hair generally grows back from that. So if it's just that, they're like, okay, we're just chill and it'll come back. But he's like, let me see if I see any female pattern hair loss. And he took out his loop and inspected my scalp and he was like, okay, I do see some, so Minoxidil will work for you. I think if you have a tealium effluvium, there's no point in taking Minoxidil.

Stacey Abrams (02:44):

Right.

Doree (02:45):

But if you have actual hair loss than it is. But he was like, it's going to take probably six months for you to see any effect, minimum four to six months, he said, and I guess he says that because people get discouraged when they don't see immediate results, understandably. And here we are, and here we are six months later, which is crazy. It's the moment the truth. It's the moment of truth. So we'll be able to see what is going on. I do really think though, that it is working, which is amazing and very exciting for me.

Elise (03:26):

Yeah. And are you still happy with the darker hair? I think you look great.

Doree (03:31):

Oh, thank you. Yes. Although I think what has also been happening, I think I mentioned this on some episode of the pod, but I think because I am growing more hair now, I'm getting more grays because I'm just getting more hair. So I think I might go get it colored again, although I am kind of due for a touchup anyway, so we'll see what happens.

Elise (03:56):

It's crazy. All the diagnostic tools available to us these days,

Doree (04:01):

It really is fascinating.

Elise (04:04):

I was told, I went to my dermatologist and she was like, wait, so this has happened to you before? Because I had mentioned this happened to me during Covid, and she was like, yeah, it's probably stress. Just watch it for a few more weeks and maybe it'll stop. And then it did kind of stop, because remember I was complaining a few months ago around January 20th that my hair was coming out a lot. Yes. I'm not losing a bunch of hair anymore. So I guess I've stabilized or I've gotten used to my new reality of living in 2025 America, or my body is just accepting it. It stopped trying to eject. I dunno. I dunno. I want to get to our guest today because it's the tireless and heroic Stacey Abrams. But just before that, my Pet Chronicles have been a big part of this show.

(04:55):

And no, the Golden Retriever MBO dog has not swallowed anything new. But we do have a hermit crab. Now, I'm not sure if we talked about it yet, but we do have a new creature cc the hermit crab. And that hermit crab is a shocking amount of work. And I have not had more anxiety keeping a creature alive in my home than this moment of having to care for hermit crab, taking care of any of the babies, even when they were newborns. And I didn't know who these little creatures were, was not as stressful as my hermit crab. And its crab habitat because there's a certain amount of humidity. Crab

Doree (05:39):

Habitat.

Elise (05:40):

Yeah, it's a real thing. And I only call it a crab habitat because I now spend a bunch of time on hermit crab Reddit to figure out what's going on with Cece and how to maintain his crab habitat because you have to keep the humidity at 70 to 80% inside the tank. But then our outside air is not that. And so I have to make sure the tank is super sealed and then sometimes spray it and then I actually have to moisten the substrate. So there's kind of the bedding inside and I have to make sure that that is the right level of moisture. And then yesterday I went downstairs to check on him and he spends a lot of time kind of just buried under things just disappearing himself. And so I don't know if he's depressed because hermit K crabs are supposed to be social.

(06:31):

And if anybody has heard my episode of normal gossip, so I think last year, the last season of Kelsey McKinney hosting normal gossip, the normal gossip story that she shared with me happened to involve a hermit crab. And I have a hermit crab trauma. So funny from my childhood because my childhood frenemy Amanda, I had her over for a sleepover and she killed my hermit crab. She dropped it out of the shell. And so I never had a hermit crab again until it was Luna's birthday sleepover recently. And she got one as a gift. And now I'm having to keep Cece alive and it's creating all of this anxiety for me. But anyway, long story longer, I went down to check on him yesterday in Luna's room and he was on his back in his shell. Oh no. Right. And I immediately started panicking. My eyes were watering. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know if he was alive and I didn't know how to wake him. I also didn't want to pick him up because I have so much trauma around hermit crabs. I was like, wait, what if I pick him up and he falls out? And so then I sent a series of texts to my friend Jen and Drew and Rob, and I was like, somebody come over and help me flip my hermit crab.

(07:50):

Oh my God. Eventually. So I went away and to do all my texting, I went back in there and I didn't want to find him in the same place. And thankfully he had flipped himself back over. So CE is still with us. Cece is still with us, but this is a lot growing all the time. I know

Doree (08:06):

This is a lot. This is a lot of stress.

Elise (08:10):

I feel unburdened now that I have been able to share.

Doree (08:13):

Well, I I'm glad you were able to share that. We have not acquired any more pets.

Elise (08:21):

God bless you for not because who needs more creatures. Honestly, Bo

Doree (08:26):

Is enough. Bo Bo has had a little bit of an upset stomach the past couple nights and he's been waking Matt up every hour to go outside. He's otherwise in good spirits and going on walks and stuff. But anyway, the point is that it's funny to me that Bo goes straight to Matt. He doesn't wake me up. He goes straight to

Elise (08:50):

Matt. He knows not to wake you.

Doree (08:51):

Yeah. He knows not to wake me. And he whines and he paws at him and he's like, you better get your ass up. He does not even come over to me. Love it. It is so funny. Sweet dog. I know. I'm like, oh, thank you Bobo. You let sleep. Alright, well we should get to our guest who I love a guest who is super accomplished and amazing, but who you just have a totally normal conversation with. It felt like we were just chatting with a friend,

Elise (09:28):

Honestly. Yeah. It felt like she was a third host of Forever 35. Yes,

Doree (09:31):

Exactly.

Elise (09:31):

Come back anytime. Stacey Abrams.

Doree (09:34):

And she is someone who has been on my dream list of guests for so long. So it was like a pinch me moment for me to get to talk to her. So I was just really, really, really excited to talk to her. And she did not disappoint, did not. It lived up to my high expectations. Absolutely. The only thing I wish I had asked her, I wish I had actually talked to Matt before we talked to her because she did mention Spoiler that she is a Star Trek fan. But what I did not know is that she has actually been on Star Trek.

Elise (10:12):

So Wild.

Doree (10:13):

Which is wild. So wild. She's such a super fan. She's such a known super fan that she has been on the show. So next time she comes on, I will ask her about that. Before we actually formally introduce her, I just want to remind everyone, our website is forever 35 podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. You could follow us on Instagram at Forever 35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com/forever three five. If you want to hear more of just Elise and me just like shooting the shit, chopping it up. Yep. Up checking our Patreon. We do these casual chats every week where it's just us chatting away. And that's at patreon.com/forever three five. We have our favorite products at Shop my US slash Forever 35. Our newsletter is at Forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. And we love getting your texts and voicemails and emails for our mini apps. You can call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at Forever 35 podcast@gmail.com.

Elise (11:16):

Honored to introduce Stacey Abrams, a voting rights activist and the number one New York Times bestselling author of While Justice Sleeps. Our time is now lead from the outside and the NAACP Image Award winners Stacey's extraordinary words and Stacey's remarkable books. She's a very prolific author, as you can tell. She's also the CEO of Sageworks Productions and Entertainment Production company, a tax attorney by training. She served 11 years in the Georgia House of Representatives seven as minority leader. She has launched multiple organizations devoted to voting rights and tackling social issues at the state, national, and international levels. Committed to the pursuit of equity. Stacey works to break barriers for young people, people of color, and the marginalized through her work in the public, nonprofit and corporate sectors. She holds degrees from Spelman College, the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas and Yale Law School. She's also just a standout Forever 35 guest.

Doree (12:18):

Amazing. Alright, we are going to take a short break and we will be right back with Stacy. Stacey Abrams, welcome to Forever 35. You've been on our wishlist of guests for a very long time, so it's really great to get to see you. We were just talking about how Elise is going to be in Scottsdale, Arizona for the weekend and you were saying you went to Scottsdale the first time you ever went on a plane.

Stacey Abrams (12:50):

I did. So I was a 12-year-old girl Scout at 12 or 13 and I was selected to go with the Girl Scout troops. We were sent to this conference and there was some disagreement with some of the parents about my inclusion that may or may not have been race-based. And so they all left me. They left the other families, other Girl scouts went and they didn't tell my parents. And so we get to the airport ready to go with everyone and they'd taken a different flight. And so I argued with my mom and dad were righteously indignant. Unfortunately for them. They were civil rights activists as teenagers. So when they told me we should just go home, I was like, no, you raised me better. I'm going anyway nice. Because I'd never been on a plane and I didn't know what I was talking about.

(13:37):

And so they agreed to let me go. And so I'm like, I'm going on a plane. Oh my God, this is really far and this is really high. And what was I thinking? And then we had this weird layover in Wisconsin, but we finally get there. And so yeah, my very first plane trip was an act of bravery, stupidity, whatever you want to call it. And I went to Scottsdale, Arizona. It was lovely. And I made a lot of good friends there and I did not blame the kids on the trip. My Girl Scout troop members were awesome. They were fantastic.

Elise (14:11):

I'm sure. Yeah,

Stacey Abrams (14:12):

This was all an above the age of 18 set of decisions and they were very kind and the Girl Scouts always took great care of me, so

Elise (14:19):

Wow, we just totally stumbled on that story. Yeah, that's a great story. And I feel like it hasn't been told before.

Stacey Abrams (14:30):

I usually mention it in passing. It's one of those things where after a while you don't want to seem like everything is a moment of trauma and learning, but I've had a few experiences,

Doree (14:45):

This is kind of a good intro to your new book, your new children's book, which is called Stacey Speaks Up. We usually start by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have, but I feel like we can get to that in a little bit because this is such a good segue into what your book is about. So do you want to just tell our listeners a little bit about the book and why you wanted to write it and what you hope people take away from it?

Stacey Abrams (15:13):

Thank you. So Stacey Speaks Up is the third in the Stacey series, and the first one, Stacey's extraordinary words, was about perseverance. The second one, remarkable books was about difference in how books bring us all together. And Stacey Speaks Up is really about how we marry empathy and advocacy. Little Stacey's in the cafeteria hanging out with her friends and she realizes that not everyone has a chance to eat. She fumbles the ball, so to speak, and trying to respond, but she knows it and she decides to figure out how to do something about it. And so we watch her on her journey with her friends as she learns to take action and find her voice, but also that you can't solve other people's problems for them. And sometimes your job is to create space for folks to come in and solve them themselves. And I do all that in a really short book for kids.

Elise (16:08):

And what an important story. It's also really timely, Stacy, because it is about federally subsidized meals and I think it's some 12 million American kids that benefit what is going on with federal funding, funding for school lunches right now under this administration or under the next congressional budget. Because I'd love to know if we can do anything if they are under threat.

Stacey Abrams (16:32):

Absolutely. So let's be clear, in the United States, almost a quarter of children face hunger at any given moment. And one of the ways as a society, we have mitigated that hunger is school lunch subsidized school lunch for some it's free. For others it's subsidized and they don't pay the full price. But the point is, no child should be hungry in school. One, it's morally wrong. Two, it's inefficient. Hunger is one of the leading predictors of the success of a child in a classroom. If they are too hungry to learn, we're going to pay for it later. So let's feed them. Unfortunately right now, this administration has become very hostile to feeding children. And so we have watched through the USDA, and just to be clear, the USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture controls and administers the program. So we've seen a slashing of funding that helped food banks provide food to children.

(17:30):

And now what's on the chopping block is actually providing the subsidies that states rely on school districts rely on. The problem is that we are going to have a generation of children who have been literally starved for education because they can't take care of themselves. So you can call your congressional member. This is not a partisan issue. So do not decide, oh, I'm not going to call. I didn't vote for 'em. Don't tell 'em you didn't vote for 'em. Call them anyway. You should also call the school board members because school board members have direct responsibility. Call your state legislator. Often these programs can be supplemented by state action, so make sure that no matter what level of government they're putting children first and make sure your kids know what you're doing. Because the other way we solve these problems is by letting them understand not the nitty gritty but the intention that we care about them and we care about their hunger. So we're going to do something about it. Often as adults, we want to do the thing to fix the problem, but we forget that the problems keep coming back.

Stacey Abrams (18:34):

And

Stacey Abrams (18:35):

So this is a moment to help your kids understand. And there's a great book to help walk you through it.

Elise (18:39):

Yeah, yeah. Well, you mentioned exactly, you mentioned marrying empathy and advocacy and these being such crucial lessons for young people. I think a lot of us are feeling this sense of guilt about the country or the world we're leaving for the next generation. What message do you want to give the young people and what kinds of conversations might help us with modeling or leading with empathy with our kids?

Stacey Abrams (19:11):

So we started this conversation about my time in the Girl Scouts, and what was important to me was when I landed in Scottsdale, the story had gotten to some adults about what had happened. And the first responsibility was to acknowledge that mistakes were made. Too often as adults, we like to pretend that no one made a mistake. Kids know the difference. They may not know whose fault it is, but they know something's not right. So our first responsibility is honesty. It's honesty contextualized for the age of the kid, but we still have to tell the truth. The second is then remorse. Not only did this happen, but we're sorry, kids need to learn that saying, I'm sorry is okay, especially from adults. There are a lot of people in prison, they didn't know how to say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. And so they create these complex webs of lies and they try to hide from the consequences.

(20:06):

Let's show remorse. And then the next step is how do we remedy the problem? And so sometimes the remedy is, I hurt you. I'm going to do something nice for you. And at the policy level it is, this is what you should have gotten, so let me work with you to make it so. But it's insufficient to just complain or blame. We have to be engaged in trying to do something. But where we sometimes get caught is that if we can't do everything, we don't do anything. Everything everywhere, all at once is a great title for a film. It is a terrible mission statement. And so our job is to do something somewhere soon. So when you see a problem, when you are in the midst of a tyrannical overthrow of the American government, for example, your job isn't to go to Washington unless that's where you were headed.

(20:55):

But you can go to a food bank and make certain that someone who's hungry has help. You can go to a shelter because they're slashing the money for domestic violent shelters. Go and make sure you're volunteering, find the issue that matters to you, and if it's age appropriate, take your kids so they can see what you're doing. And if it's not age appropriate, then tell the story in vague terms about how you were concerned about something, and this is what you did about it. Kids understand empathy, they understand action. What they don't always get is that they can do it too.

Elise (21:27):

Yeah. You dredged up an old memory for me, Stacey Abrams, I remember when I was 11, it was the great flood of 1993 in St. Louis where I grew up and my parents took me out sandbagging or to fill sandbags, and it was just this sense that we had a civic responsibility. We had a responsibility to each other. Exactly. Even if our house wasn't threatened directly. Exactly.

Doree (21:53):

Well, we have been talking about your new children's book, but I am also a big fan of your thrillers. Yes. So first of all, when is the next Avery Kae book coming out? Well,

Stacey Abrams (22:08):

I'm glad you asked. It's called Coded Justice, and it is Avery. She's finally in the dream job. She's imagined she's at a law firm making a lot more money than she's made before, but she can't stay out of trouble. And so she takes on the client. Oh, Avery,

Doree (22:29):

To be fair trouble often finds her.

Stacey Abrams (22:33):

In this case, she's trying to do her job. So she's got a client, she's an internal investigator, she's working for a big company that's about to go public. And it just so happens that there was a mysterious death before she got there, and she might have to work with her best friend, her other best friend and her boyfriend to solve whether or not this was an inside job or if there's something wrong and there is a ghost in the machine. It's one of the most fun books I've gotten to write in a really long time, and it comes out in July.

Doree (23:08):

Oh my goodness. Pitch. Oh, this is very exciting. If you have not, I'm addressing this to our listeners. If you have not read Stacey's two thrillers and she has her third coming out in July. They are so great. I love a mystery. I love these kind of

(23:25):

Political intrigue thriller books. So this was so in my lane that when they came out, I was like, yes, and they're so good. I also was like, oh, I really hope this is good. You want it to be really hoping it's going to be good. And then it was so good. So I'm very excited to hear that the new book is coming out, your books, they always feel so of the moment. And I'm wondering, how do you draw on what's going on in the world and how do you kind of bring it into the plot and the characters? How does that work for you?

Stacey Abrams (24:07):

So my very first book was actually about environmental justice issues. It was based on my ex-boyfriend's dissertation, and I decided to take some chemical that he discovered the relationship didn't work, but the chemical was good. Anyway, so I turned it into this novel. And since then I've always wanted to take complex topics, interesting ideas, problems that we're not really thinking about in the everyday zeitgeist and make it accessible. So I use romance to talk about ethno botany and forensic psychology. And the Avery Keen Books for me are another way of doing that because the world is complex, but it's accessible. And so I try to take big hairy problems that nobody wants to spend time learning about and then bring it into a space where you can have fun in the adventure. And if you finish it knowing more so in Avery's second outing in Rogue Justice, I dived into cryptocurrency, the frailty of the electric grid and the FISA courts.

(25:12):

But it's a lot of fun. In the very, very first one I did bioethics and genomic research that I wrote 10 years before we knew we could kill people with diseases like that. So I try to do things that are interesting, that feel complex and that feel out of reach. And my job is to pull it closer to make it interesting and fun and exciting to learn about. I want experts to read my books and think that I respect them, even if I'm not completely accurate about what I know. And I want the average reader to feel like they are more grounded in a topic.

Stacey Abrams (25:56):

And

Stacey Abrams (25:57):

As a writer, if I can do all of those things while making your heart pound and your pulse race, and if you're in my romantic suspense, you want him to come for you. And if you're in my legal thrillers, you're really excited about who dies. But the whole point is I want you to enjoy the journey, but end it with the realization that you two are entitled to this information, this knowledge, and these opinions.

Doree (26:26):

So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.

Elise (26:38):

You are such a prolific writer. I want to know if it comes easy for you or is it a struggle? And then a little bit just behind the curtain on the process, are you an outliner or do you just stream of consciousness? Tell us a little bit more about how you approach writing since you have put out so many books now.

Stacey Abrams (26:57):

So my first job is to figure out the genre. So I have lots and lots of ideas and there are different vehicles for the stories I want to tell. So once I figure out which genre I want to be in, my next job is to tell myself a story. So I usually write a one pager where I say, this is what I think is going to happen. Here are the characters that I know. And then once I've done that, I do an outline

(27:21):

And then write a longer synopsis to myself, and then I storyboard. So I lay out every single chapter. I am lying to myself in that process because I'm like, oh, this is linear. I'm going to do this and then I'm going to do this. And so I convinced myself that I know what I'm going to write and I believe it as I'm doing it, I am convinced that this is what's going to happen, and then I start writing and the characters are like, whatever. Here's what we're going to do now. So Coded Justice started out with this very different protagonist and or antagonist and a different outcome, but I really like what we figured out. I am a conduit for my imagination, and luckily I can type. I enjoy the process. I can't say it's not hard. I write pretty quickly. So there's an ease in that way, but I get stuck because I tell myself what I think is going to happen. The characters are like, yeah, I'm glad you had that. That's real cute. And then I have to figure out how to bring the two of us together, or the five of us, or the 10 of us, depending who's in my head at the time.

Elise (28:30):

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of problem solving along the way if you're letting the characters follow their motivations.

Doree (28:37):

I love how you describe sometimes the characters just kind of do what they're going to do. And I've written one novel, so I haven't written as many as you, but you also, you find that you're just sort of like, oh, they're, they're just doing this thing. I didn't know they were going to do this, but yeah, they

Stacey Abrams (28:55):

Surprising us. Or you'll write a scene, you're like, oh, she's so funny. I'm like, wait, you wrote it down? But I was very surprised. She's so clever. Oh, that was really sly.

Elise (29:06):

And I'm very impressed with what they do. Right. Oh, she made a good choice there. I applaud you. Shall we back up a little bit and ask you the question we ask all of our guests? Yes. Which is what are you doing to take care of yourself lately?

Stacey Abrams (29:25):

So I watch an ordinate amount of television. I love tv. I love books. I love movies. I read voraciously. I watch movies. But television is the most effective matchmaking of emotion to activity that I can imagine. So when I am in this mood, I can go and find the show to tell me this. It's hit or miss with movies, but with tv, you can come back to the things that make you comfortable. You can challenge yourself. I love television. So right now I'm in the process of rewatching the West Wing for very obvious reasons. I want a president, such a different world. Yeah, there's a comfort watch there. I just finished Reacher because I enjoy watching things blow up in people. Oh, I love Reacher. Yeah. I just finished the most recent season of The Diplomat, and then I am waiting for Oh, and Black Doves is next on my list.

Elise (30:30):

Have you gotten into the pit yet?

Stacey Abrams (30:33):

Yes. So okay, so I like the Pit. I love Noah Wiley. I love the characterizations. I can't watch Gore. I do not. I have to spend half of the episode looking away, so away. I really, really would love to. I could do ER because we had FCC rules about what you see. It would network. Yeah, it wasn't streaming. Yeah. I can't do this. So I read about all of this episodes, I watched his knees as I could, but at a certain point you're really just trying to your dialogue. Last watched three, so glad to hear

Doree (31:06):

You say this because Elise has been telling me I should watch the Pit, I should watch the Pit. And the other day I was like, okay, but is it gory? How gory is it? And she was like, well, there's a few things. So I believe you, Stacy, I believe you.

Elise (31:22):

I do have to turn away. I get queasy. But I like the characters so much. Speaking of character work, there's nobody who's not likable. There's nobody on that show that I haven't come to care about a lot. And so that's what really sold it for me.

Stacey Abrams (31:38):

Maybe I need to give richer a try too. Now on your recommendation, Alan Rickson is fantastic. Richer is

(31:45):

It's eye candy, but it's also you just, you're excited about what he's going to do. He's a wonderful hero and it's just fun. It is really fun. I will say this story when you are watching The Pit. So I watched the last three episodes because I saw too many clips on TikTok. I'm like, I have to know what happened. There's a whole measles storyline. I'm like, I need to know. Anyway, so I've made my way through the last, and now I'm going to have to go back and watch the whole thing. I'm going to have to just kind of watch it like this with my hands over my eyes. I've never watched a full episode of anything on the Discovery Channel. I don't care. Whatever's happening inside me. Congratulations. Just let me know if I need to tell someone I don't need to see it.

Doree (32:30):

Oh my gosh. Okay. So you have done children's books, you have done thrillers, you have done romance. Is there another genre that you feel like, you know what? I think I'm going to tackle that

Stacey Abrams (32:42):

Science fiction. I love science fiction. So my other comfort shows are anything that begins with Star and ends with Trek or Dr. Who. So I would love to write a sci-fi novel.

Doree (32:54):

I would love to read one of your sci-fi novels. So get on that is what I'm saying. I would love to read one of mine too. So yes, I know in all your free time, just churn it out. No, but seriously, I think that would be really great. My husband is very into Star Trek, so yeah,

Elise (33:17):

You share that in common. You share that in common. I want to ask you a little bit about community. Stacy. Yes, please. Because you are a longtime lawmaker, obviously quite active in government and activist circles, but you're coming to LA to be around writers and authors at the Festival of Books. I'd love to know what you get out of and why it's meaningful for you to be part of that community. The writerly author Lee community specifically.

Stacey Abrams (33:50):

So when I was a kid, I was about 14, my mom warned me. She said, you don't want to be a jack of all trades and a master of none. What I heard, what she meant was pick something and focus on it. What I heard was try everything. And the way that has made my life is that when people say, pick a lane, I've just decided I'm on a freeway and that's how I operate. For me, writing is one of the lanes of how I exist and how I meet the moment. It is important to me to be around writers and readers because the way we imagine a world is often how we create the next moment that we live.

(34:30):

And so it is important for us to have writers who are tackling tough subjects, but also to have writers who are making it easy to get to the next moment. We need writers who are imagining Nirvana and those who are telling us what the dystopian future will look like sometimes in the same book, but always they are committed to the craft of imagination. And especially in dark moments, being around people who are not bounded by what has been, but who are willing to press for more is important and readers because they want the hope that comes with writing good writing. They want the ability to escape and find somewhere new to be, but they know they've got to come back eventually. And I want them to have enjoyed the process. And for me, it's not different than what I do in my civic world or what I do in my political world because all of this is about the story. We want to tell about who we are, and I'm just privileged enough that I get to do it in multiple lanes and with different media. And in this case, I get to do it through the written word and to share it. And so it's always exciting for me to be around those who do it better, who do it different, and who can help me figure out how to do it.

Elise (35:45):

What are the books that you would take with you to a desert Island

Stacey Abrams (35:50):

Enders Game by Orson Scott Card? I know it's a little controversial, but it is one of the best stories that I've read about the arc of a young person's mind and how they think about the world. I love Alan Litman's, Einstein's Dreams. He's a physicist who imagined vignettes of how Einstein arrived at his general theory of relativity. And it's lovely, even if you don't think you care about science, it's a beautiful, beautiful book. I would bring honest delusions by Nora Roberts, one of my favorite romance novels ever. And I would bring the Intuitionist by Colson Whitehead, who is just extraordinary writer and whose love of language is unparalleled. And then because I want to both challenge myself and worry, I would bring Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler.

Elise (36:42):

Yeah, what a great list. Couldn't believe there was a fire. Yeah. Couldn't believe there was a fire in Altina in the year 2025. I know. So wild.

Doree (36:55):

I wanted to go back to what you were saying about the freeway and the lanes on the freeway because I feel like a theme that comes up often with our listeners is kind of career pivots at midlife. And I was wondering if you had any advice for people who are kind of in a rut or burned out or maybe feel like they want to do something different with their lives. How do they kind of change lanes on that freeway?

Stacey Abrams (37:20):

Sure. So I also write nonfiction and I wrote this book called Lead from the Outside. And when I wrote the book, the first chapter is called Ambition and the second chapter is about fear. And it was done in that order on purpose because our first job is to know that we have the right to want more. We have the right to want something different. We have the right to imagine our lives going in a different way. And that's ambition. And too often, especially women are told that we get what we get or that you had a chance to figure it out. Now you're stuck with what you have. We don't want to fail. And so we tell ourselves that it's fear, but it's often that we don't feel comfortable with ambition. So that's the first job. The second is to know that you are really afraid.

(38:06):

Fear is real and people tell you to be fearless. I used to say that, and I apologize to anyone who heard me say that fear is real, but it can't be the only thing you feel. It's a good marker for what you need to focus on. I like to take my fear out to lunch, find out it's favorite wine. What is it like on its salad? Get to know your fear, because if you know your fear, then you can prepare for it. And then the third is ask for help. When we are trying to change, we are so afraid of people being dismissive or being wrong, that we try to do it all by ourselves. I have partners in almost everything I do, whether it's my editor or my business partner or my colleagues when I'm in office, my campaign team, I do things with other people in part because I've met me and I should not be left to my own devices, own same. What you get with a partner is someone who can help you issue spot, but can also be your cheerleader, can be your sounding board, but can also be the person who reminds you when it gets hard, why you tried. So don't do it alone. Don't be afraid to do it, and don't limit yourself in believing that you can't do more.

Elise (39:14):

Well, one fear, especially at midlife, both of us are in our forties. A lot of our listeners are too, is that it's too late. It's too late for a major change. I couldn't go to med school or something Now after being a journalist my whole life, what do you say to that?

Stacey Abrams (39:28):

My parents became United Methodist ministers at the age of 40 by going to Emory University to get their master's of divinity. They had six children, only one of whom was in college. They had to work full-time, go to school and make sure none of us did crazy stupid things. Yeah. But what I learned from them was, again, do the thing that you're called to do. Don't change lanes. Don't switch your perspective because you think you have to do it because if you don't, you're going to regret it. That solves a lot of problems, and I've done lots of different things. I try for things that don't work out. And that's the other thing. Be really, really good at not getting the thing you thought you wanted. I have publicly applied for a couple of jobs and had my application rejected, and there are those who are befuddled by why I'm not more depressed and why would I put myself out there? It's because I don't define myself by what I get. I define myself by what I

Elise (40:31):

Try,

Stacey Abrams (40:33):

And as long as you are trying for the thing that energizes you and excites you, something that has kept you up all night and something that would wake you up happy in the morning, then you have a responsibility to do it. Age is not, that's not an excuse. I'm 51, so I'm older than you two show offs. But I don't mind trying new things because I've seen what happens when I don't get it and it's not that bad. Yeah.

Elise (41:06):

I also know we want to stay away from explicit politics, but given the hostile government takeover that we're in, what do you say to Americans who are looking for leadership, looking for ways to take action, trying not to feel hopeless?

Stacey Abrams (41:26):

Well, speaking of multiple lanes, I first encourage you to come to my podcast after you've listened to every one of these episodes. We have a podcast called Assembly Required, and the whole point of the show is to say, here are these big, horrible, no good, terrible problems that we are having. Let's understand them. So we break down the problem into bite-size pieces, and then we talk about what do you do about it? What can you do? We can't fix all of this. I mean, this is a systemic assault, but systems are made of people. And so our job is to figure out what part can we play? How can we be a cog in the wheels of change in the right direction? But you can't do it if you get overwhelmed by the

Stacey Abrams (42:07):

Problem

Stacey Abrams (42:09):

And you're going to get overwhelmed by the problem if you don't understand it. So we do the work of really explaining what's happening. But then the second thing is I need everyone to pick the thing that matters the most to them that they can touch, not the esoteric and not the existential, but the thing that matters if it's hunger with kids, if it is gun violence, whatever your thing is, if you are dedicated to addressing your thing and your friends are committed to addressing their thing, that's why we want this government to work. That's why we want democracy to work. That's why we want civil society to work. It's because we want the things to work for others, and we want our ability to work together to be real. The best way to defeat tyranny is to not let it defeat us. Yes, we want a leader to rise. We want a thousand leaders to rise. Sometimes we got to put our masks on ourselves and we've got to find our way there. Somebody's going to run for office, someone's going to come up with a way to do something. But until that happens, it's not necessarily that we need new leaders, we just need people to show leadership.

(43:21):

And all of us can show leadership. All of us can show this is how we can meet this moment. This is how we can push back against the overwhelming depression that this moment can bring, or the numbness that we can feel. We don't have to have new leaders, but we can all be part of providing leadership.

Doree (43:41):

I love that. It's very inspiring and I think a message that will really resonate with a lot of our listeners who are, I think there is the tendency to sort of feel like, oh, I need to take this all on, and no one can do that. So I really like that. Well, Stacy, before we let you go, one of our original Forever 35 questions was about skincare indulgences. Absolutely. So just for fun, totally different. On a totally different note, are there any beauty must haves that you feel so great about that you want to shout out? Shout out.

Stacey Abrams (44:18):

Okay. So I have a really weird life as this podcast is revealed to all and sundry. I've got to do a podcast every week, and I travel a lot, and then I go outside and talk to people and they look at my, and they're like, what did you do or not do? So I have three, I rotate. So I have Rare Beauty does really, really great products, especially for when you've got to go fast and you don't have a makeup artist who can help you fix everything. Fenty does fantastic if you want to make sure you look hydrated and that we all can't smell as good as Rihanna, but we can look better than we thought. And Fenty is great. And then when I've got to do my high end things, pat McGrath is amazing. I know she's going over to do even more amazing things, but she puts out some of the lightest weight things that make you look like you were born to somebody who actually had money. I was not, but I now know what rich people feel like when I can put Pat McGrath on my skin.

Elise (45:19):

What a great plug. What a great plug for Pat McGrath put this on and know what it feels like to be rich. I'm sold, honestly.

Stacey Abrams (45:30):

Seriously. She's got some great stuff, man. And more importantly, it makes you look like you knew what you were. So the reason I like Fenty Rare Beauty and Pat McGrath, they all make you look like you knew what you were doing, and you didn't watch 17 TikTok videos trying to explain makeup to you. I still don't know how to contour, but I can fake it.

Doree (45:48):

I mean, you do have a lovely glow, so whatever you put on your face today, yeah, it works. Was it was really working. So you mentioned your podcast. Is there anywhere else that you think our listeners would want to hear anything else that you want to plug that our listeners might want to hear about from you? Any other tour? Are you touring at all for this book beyond the LA Time Festival of Books? Yes. Okay.

Stacey Abrams (46:13):

Yeah, so the books Let's We'll launch July 15th. Thank you. First of all, I just want to say thank you to both of you. This was such a fun conversation, and hopefully one day you'll have you back. Oh, for us too. This is amazing. So Code of Justice comes out on July 15th, and you should get it wherever you get your books, especially bookshop.org because it's one of my favorite places to get books. There will be a book tour. So if you follow me on all of the things, it's usually Stacey Abrams, so it's at Stacey Abrams or whatever symbol they put in front of my name. And follow me, listen to me, read me and tell me what you need to know. That's the most important thing. My greatest plug is I am privileged to be in a position where I can talk to folks, but I'm better at what I do when I can hear from them. So let me know what you need, let me know what you want to know more about. Let me know what you want to read about. And I know I've got to get a science fiction novel written soon, but right after I do that, and Elise, I'm waiting for you to tell me what I've got to write for you. And then after that, y'all could be up next.

Elise (47:18):

Definitely not Gore.

Stacey Abrams (47:20):

No,

Elise (47:21):

I don't. I don't want you to be telling me about the insides of eyeballs or anything.

Stacey Abrams (47:24):

I don't know what they're like. Anyway, I close my eyes. So there you go.

Doree (47:28):

Stacey Abrams, thank you so much. This was so great. I really enjoyed our conversation, so thank you.

Stacey Abrams (47:34):

Likewise. Thank you guys.

Doree (47:39):

I mean, I know that it is like Stacey's job to be charming and personable, but I really did feel like, okay, we could be friends Stacey for sure. We could be

Elise (47:50):

Friends, could watch Reacher together. If you want to

Doree (47:54):

Get into Reacher, we watch Reacher together and we could watch the pit and cover our eyes from the gory parts.

Elise (48:02):

She loves tv. I love how much she loves tv.

Doree (48:04):

I love how much she loves tv. I also appreciated that she also does not like Gore, and she writes these amazing mystery thrillers that are, so she talks about how she got deep into nerdy FEA stuff, and you know what I mean? They're all so well reported and researched, but you don't feel like you're reading a textbook or anything. And I just really adored her. So my intention this week is to become friends with. Just kidding. It totally makes sense. It totally makes sense. So last week I said, I just need to get through this week, and it was touch and go there for a while, but I think I managed to do achievement unlocked.

Stacey Abrams (48:57):

Yes.

Elise (48:57):

Yeah,

Doree (48:58):

Achievement unlocked. I did manage to do it, and everything went off pretty seamlessly in the end. So despite my near meltdown and not being able to refrigerate the cake for Henry's party, but that was fine.

Elise (49:19):

Cake ended up surviving and getting refrigerated. So you,

Doree (49:24):

Yes. So I actually mentioned this in my tennis newsletter, court date, court date subec.com, that I've fallen off the wagon a little bit when it comes to my strength routine, and I need to get back into it because it is just so important for every aspect of not just my tennis game, but my life. So I'm renewing my commitment to strength training.

Elise (49:55):

My intention was sort of related last week, which was just returning to movement because I needed to renew my commitment to moving around at all because I had just not exercised, I think for a week, and I could feel it, like my joints really hurt and then I'm more injury prone than I already am.

(50:17):

And so I did, I'm really glad. I think I'm coming off of four straight weeks at airports, which in my non foreign correspondent life, I'm usually not at the airport that many weeks in a row. I take a lot of trips, but I usually get a week break in between. So now I have a two week break, which is nice. And in those two weeks I'm going to really use up all my class pass points and try to take a new class every day or try something new. But I did over the last week or so, play more tennis than I usually do, which was great.

Doree (50:51):

Love

Elise (50:51):

That Rob was able to move around enough to play with me because he is still nursing that long-term ankle injury from doing parkour in a bouncy house, which jokes on Rob, really, I mean, oh my God, this week, my intention is to is time management. It's time management because I've said yes to a bunch of side things and then I'm still managing my production company, reasonable volume, and we have various projects that we're trying to bring in or pilot and start. And so I feel like I wish I had an executive coach or could pay for an executive coach because it's that level of I need some scrutiny to understand my days better. And so I'm just going to try and block out times or figure out some time management hacks. So listeners, if you have any good ones or books that you have read or methods that you follow, call in all the typical ways. 7, 8, 1 5 9, 1 0 3, 9 0.

Doree (51:56):

I love that. Alright, well, listeners, thank you so much for listening. Elise, always great to chat with you. And just a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone so much. We'll talk to you soon. Talk to you next time. Bye.

 
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