Episode 301: Last on the List with Lennon Parham
Kate has returned to BB cream and Doree has a self-care doctor day. Then they’re joined by actor/writer/director Lennon Parham, who talks about growing up as “a weirdo,” her undying love of the Indigo Girls, learning to put herself first(ish), and caring for her aging parents as an only child.
Photo Credit: Toby Fleischman
Mentioned in this Episode
Mentioned in this Episode
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir,
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums,
Kate: And I have a proclamation. It's not a proclamation. I think I'm back to the start when it comes to skincare because
Doree: What really?
Kate: Well, not when it comes to skincare, I guess when it comes to makeup, because I am now back on the BB cream train, which is like what got me into
Doree: this interesting
Kate: to begin with.
Doree: Go on.
Kate: Well, I have a very strong memory of you and I pre podcast. We would meet up and write together at that yoga studio cafe.
Doree: Yes. That closed,
Kate: And I remember once you told me that my skin looked good and I had been wearing very vivid memory.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: I was wearing that Pacifica BB cream, and I remember being like, yes, I fucking did it. My skin looks amazing. It was the Pacifica BB cream, a light, and I would put that on with some of their CC cream, and that was one of the first products I'd ever bought that I was like, I could wear this. This is kind of like the wear it you every, you wear it every day.
Doree: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kate: And then I remember sometime after that I went to Sephora and a person was helping me and they were like, you should buy this. And I was like, great. And then I went to the register and it was a BB cream or a CC cream, and it was $75. And I almost, shit my brain's out. This person had been like, we just got this. It was a mare, Pacific Pacific was the brand. And they were like, we just got thiss so great. We put it on and I was like, oh yeah, this is great. I thought maybe it would be like $30. I was not expecting $75. And then I did the thing where I was in line and I was at the register and I was too embarrassed to be like, no thanks, so I bought it
Doree: This is so funny. Oh my God. Okay.
Kate: Anyway, those were my BB cream days. And then
Doree: that was peak BB cream for you.
Kate: I was a BB cream baby, but spelled bb
Doree: A bb. That's A BBB. What's
Kate: A-B-B-B-A-B-B-C-B. Yeah. A B, BC, B. But then I got swayed by other foundations. I tried the Armani one. Remember that was an early Doree Shafrir Fve on this podcast.
Doree: Yes. I liked that one. But in retrospect, I think I liked it. I liked a much thicker foundation at the time, like a heavier foundation.
Kate: And our needs changed.
Doree: Our needs change. Kate,
Kate: I try needs change. I'm pretty sure I tried a Christian Dior something or other at some point that I got it. Nordstrom with a store credit, was it Dior? I can't remember. And I remember the person who sold it to me at the makeup counter said that this was the makeup that her clients wear to the gym. And I was like, oh, wow. Your clients are different from me. I didn't know people wore makeup to the gym, but that's good for them anyway.
Doree: Yeah, Makeup at the gym is a whole thing.
Kate: It is a whole thing. But you know what I did yesterday? Well, so yesterday I put on my new BB creams and tinted moisturizers and all these goodies that I got, but I also put on my mascara that I like, and I was like, I'm going to test you out. And I went and played pickleball in my tower 28 mascara, and I was like, I'm going to see if you smudge because I sweat. And it didn't. I was like, wow, okay. Look at you.
Doree: I mean, I have thought about this in regards to Peloton instructors. I mean, we've talked about this. Whene came on our show. We talked a little bit about makeup, but a lot of them wear pretty heavy makeup.
Kate: Yes. Robin, I feel like always has a nice face on Jess King really going for it.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: I mean, yes, I do think makeup. I think there is makeup that you can really sweat in and it will stay. I mean, imagine any dancer, any backup dancer, any dancer really,
Doree: Or Broadway performer, Taylor Swift.
Kate: Everybody.
Doree: Everybody. I mean, you make a good point actually.
Kate: Everybody's sweating in their makeup.
Doree: Everyone's sweating in their makeup. I feel like what ends up happening, and I usually don't wear makeup to workout in, but if I do end up wearing makeup for some active thing, I will wipe my face. I'll forget and I'll wipe my face with a towel or something.
Kate: Totally.
Doree: And I'm like, oh, gross.
Kate: Oh, I put a white baseball hat on yesterday. And then I took it off and I was like, Ooh, ew. But I am kind of just riding that BB cream train again. I want such light coverage that you barely notice it's there. And I will say the Laura Mercy tinted moisturizer that I just bought really kind of nailed it. And I combined that with this Merit Foundation concealer stick, and then I rubbed this merit highlighter all over my face. And those things gave me a nice glow. But I found even some of the brands that I thought I was buying a very light tinted moisturizer thing, it still felt heavy to me.
Doree: Well, I think also when you're not used to wearing foundation for a while, anything is going to feel heavy.
Kate: It's like putting Saran wrap on your face if you haven't worn it in a while.
Doree: But I mean, as I've mentioned countless times on this podcast, I went years, decades putting on a full face of foundation, full face of makeup every day. And I didn't think that I wore a lot of makeup. Do you know what I mean?
Kate: Yeah. Well, and when you were doing this, when you were wearing it, did you do a primer first?
Doree: I feel like usually not. I feel like I usually did. I would use a primer if I had an event or something, I think. But it's also possible I did. I remember using, there was a benefit primer I really liked. But yeah, a lot of foundation,
Kate: Our relationship to makeup changes over time. It's kind of interesting actually.
Doree: It does. It really does,
Kate: Doesn't it? Some people don't wear it at all and used to wear it. Some people get into it and it's a form of self-expression. For me, I just want, I don't know. I just want a little something once in a while.
Doree: Yeah, I hear you.
Kate: Just a little bit of coverage over this beautiful blotchy skin that I sometimes have. I am going to the dermatologist tomorrow too.
Doree: Well, Kate, that's actually a great segue into something I wanted to mention.
Kate: Go on.
Doree: Not just that, yesterday I had a real day of self-care with doctor's appointments,
Kate: Which I really think you and I have both said this before, and we'll say it again, taking care of your health. That is the ultimate.
Doree: That is the ultimate selfcare. So I had my annual appointment with my dermatologist where he does a full mole check.
Kate: I'm so pumped for this.
Doree: And those appointments I always make when I have my last appointment. So I've had this appointment for a year, and then recently, I feel like it was because of all the stuff in the news about how younger people are getting colon cancer and maybe someone or I read something about someone who got colon cancer. I forget what it was, but I am now nearly two years overdue for my,
Kate: I guess not technically
Doree: Colonoscopy. Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess I am a year overdue for getting my first colonoscopy because I turned 45 and I'm about to turn 47, and I hadn't even gotten it. And the last time when I went to my primary care doctor the year I was 45, she was like, you need to get a colonoscopy. Here's some doctors, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay. And then I just didn't do it. And then I went back this year and she was like, so how about that colonoscopy?
Kate: How about that colon?
Doree: Yeah. And I still didn't do it. I mean, that was a couple months ago, and it took me a few weeks to do something about it because I was just putting it off. And then I finally called, I asked a friend for a recommendation of a doctor, and I called and I was just like, hi, I need a colonoscopy. And they were like, okay, you can't just walk in and get a colonoscopy
Kate: Coming off the street.
Doree: Yeah. They were like, you have to see the doctor. You have to have a consultation with the doctor first and then we can schedule a colonoscopy. And she was like, he can see you on this date. And I was like, oh, well, that's fine. It'll just be like a Dave Doctor's appoint. Then it turned out they're in the same building.
Kate: Isn't that convenient?
Doree: They're in the same medical building. So they were a couple hours apart. So I just went to the mall nearby and had lunch and then came back for my second appointment
Kate: Doree. Good.
Doree: And now I have the actual colonoscopy scheduled. May 23rd is the date
Kate: right after your birthday? I say, really?
Doree: Right? Well, apparently he only does them on Thursdays. She was like, I could do May 9th, but he only has a later one 10 AM You want to do it as early in the day as possible. You have to be drinking clear liquids before and so you want to be able to eat. So she's like, oh, but I could get you in at eight on the 16th. I was like, that is my birthday. As symbolic as it would be to get a colonoscopy on my birthday, I think I'm actually going to not do that. It's going to be the following week. I already sent my husband a calendar invite to pick me up.
Kate: Good. And if he can't, I will. Although
Doree: thank you so much.
Kate: I think that is my child's fifth grade graduation day. But you know what? Friendship comes first.
Doree: Hey, my colon is more important. Sorry.
Kate: Where was your mom today? Her business partner and dear friend had to get a colonoscopy. That feels like a good reason. You know what? That feels like a good reason.
Doree: I got to say. I mean, in the pantheon of good reasons, it's pretty good.
Kate: It's middling. Yeah. I would say It's mid, as the teens say it, it's mid.
Doree: If I didn't have someone to pick me up, I would take you up on that. And actually I would probably reschedule it if you were like, I could pick you up, but not on that date. I would be like, okay, I'll reschedule it for a date. It's not super urgent. But this actually, I feel like this has come up or I've seen it come up where people who are not partnered and don't have family and end up putting off things like colonoscopies because they don't want to ask a friend or they don't have a friend to come pick them up.
Kate: And I think, if I remember correctly from when I got an MRI recently and took medication. I don't think they'll let you go in an Uber. I can't remember.
Doree: No, they won't. You have no you to be, there has to be a person with you. I mean, this was when I was doing all the egg retrievals and embryo transfers. Someone always had to accompany me with the embryo transfers. It was only if you took a Valium. If not you,
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Drive yourself away. But yeah. And what's also funny is people keep saying to me, the colonoscopy sleep is like the best nap you'll ever have. And I was like, I did so many egg retrievals that were like great sleeps.
Kate: Yeah,
Doree: I know what those sleeps feel like.
Kate: You're familiar with the sleeps? I mean, isn't it?
Doree: I am familiar with the sleep.
Kate: It's the same sleep that I probably had when I got surgery on my hand. It's that
Doree: The colonoscopy is propofol, which I don't know if that is what, I don't know if that's exactly what they use for these various other things, but the sleep of anesthesia is a different kind of sleep.
Kate: Yes, it's a deep sleep.
Doree: Anyway, I do feel accomplished.
Kate: Good. You should
Doree: for getting that done.
Kate: That's awesome.
Doree: And I posted some of the colonoscopy instructions on my Instagram, which you saw, and I got a lot of people responding to me of people being like, I just did this. Or like, oh my God, I have to do this. Or I've done this several times and it's not a big deal. Another person wrote me with some good colonoscopy prep advice. So I feel like putting it out there is butt care, is self-care, as we like to say.
Kate: It is. And truly, I will say, get your colonoscopy because the fact that there is a means of surveying the body for colon cancer and the ability to catch it hopefully at an early stage is so great. So if you can get that colonoscopy, get pictures of your what's going on up in there that butt.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Get in there, Doree. That's what I'm going to say when I go get my colonoscopy like doctors, get in there,
Doree: Get in there, come on,
Kate: Take a hike, get in there. They're going to be very, very traumatized when I roll in for colonoscopy time. Well, I'm very excited to welcome our guest onto the pod.
Doree: Me too.
Kate: So we got to talk to Lennon Parham, actor, writer TV director. Lennon is someone I have known as we establish up top of the conversation. I've known her for over 20 years, which is wild. It's weird to know somebody that long just period. Right? Isn't it kind of weird that you're now old enough to have known somebody for that long and it's not even your whole life?
Doree: Yeah, it feels weird.
Kate: Lennon has co-created and starred in her own half hour TV series on USA called Playing House, which concluded after three critically acclaimed seasons. She also recurred as Julia Louis Dreyfuss, hilarious senior advisor, Karen Collins on Veep. She has made a billion memorable appearances on TV shows like Ghosted, lady Dynamite, mad Men, parks and Recreation. She most recently was on the show Minx and has directed episodes of the delightful Show, somebody Somewhere. And she's just a real sound beacon of wisdom.
Doree: I really enjoyed getting to talk to her also because it was nice to hear Kate. It was nice to hear you talking to someone who, like you said, who you've known for so long. There's just this level of intimacy that you don't get with our other amazing guests.
Kate: Yes.
Doree: Because we haven't known them for that long.
Kate: And to also be clear, Lennon and I performed together on an improv team for many years, and you do get a strange level of comfort and trust with those people because you're on stage with them and you're trusting each other to make each other look good and hold each other up on stage. So there is kind of just a weird unspoken trust that comes when you perform with people.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: And Lennon honestly is the reason I live in Los Angeles because,
Doree: Oh my gosh,
Kate: She and her writing partner Jess St. Clair, wrote a show called BFF and they hired my husband as a staff writer. And that is why,
Doree: Oh my goodness, I did not know that
Kate: I moved to LA for that job.
Doree: How cool.
Kate: And here I am, so whoops. Hitting my microphone. So yeah, that's my origin story, Doree.
Doree: Wow, that's very cool. Well,
Kate: Before we get to Lenin friendly reminder that you can check out our website Forever35 podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. We're also on Instagram @Forever35podcast. You can find our patreon at patreon.com/forever35. products we love can be shopped at shopmy.us/forever35. And if you want to reach us, you can leave us a voicemail or you can send us a text message. That number is (781) 591-0390. You can also email us at Forever35Podcast@gmail.com. We'll be right back. Okay, Lennon. Hi. As I just told you before we started, I am weirdly nervous, excited. You're like the oldest friend I've ever had on this podcast, so it's not weird.
Lennon: Is that true
Kate: I Think so.
Lennon: I knew you in the before times.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: You've known me since I had a flip phone.
Lennon: Yeah, totally. And I had And vice versa.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: That is a real time marker. You've known me since I had a flip phone.
Kate: Yes. When I met Lennon.
Lennon: Probably had a Blackberry.
Kate: You were waiting tables at that bar in Hell's Kitchen.
Lennon: The bull moose Saloon.
Kate: Yes. Bull Moose Saloon. Yes. So we go back and I think that's why I'm so giddy because I don't know, it's exciting to me to have somebody here who I've known since they were waiting tables at the Bull Moose Saloon.
Lennon: Yeah. Well, I'm excited to be here. I'm a fan. I'm a fan of both of you.
Kate: Well, that's very nice of you.
Lennon: That was 20 years ago.
Kate: I know. My gosh.
Lennon: So it's been,
Kate: we're old.
Lennon: It's been a long time.
Kate: It's been a minute.
Lennon: I was waiting tables at the Bull Moose Saloon when I found out. I mean, when I got on Dillinger with your now husband,
Kate: That's an upright citizens Bri gave Harald team
Lennon: Legendary status, if I may.
Kate: Super, Super Amazing.
Lennon: Won so many cage matches.
Kate: Yeah, you guys were stars.
Lennon: Which is an improv battle. It's cooler than it sounds.
Kate: Well Lennon. Okay. Let's just start by asking you what we ask all our guests, which is, what is your current self-care practice? Do you have one? What does self-care look like in your life right now?
Lennon: It really changes depending on the season. I was really good at taking care of myself when I was pregnant because it was for someone else,
Kate: But that's kind of deep. It wasn't you
Lennon: And I really have to force myself to take care of myself. I am in general the last on my list. And so I've been working on that in therapy. But I also, because I am an actor, I can kind of sell it to myself as you have to take care of yourself because this is the instrument that's going to get you jobs, that's going to pay your mortgage. So I think probably the most self Carey thing I do is exercise. I do Pilates right now. I do Pilates twice a week and I walk with friends and then I get regular facials with a young lady. She's a Moroccan woman named Maddie at a place called JD Aesthetics in Studio City. And I go there if I can every two weeks.
Kate: Yes. Okay. This is a real inside the actor studio.
Lennon: It's deductible.
Kate: You are.
Lennon: I mean, I put it as an expense because, and I also have to get my color done every five weeks if I'm working or, so
Kate: Can I ask a question about biweekly facials? Do you notice a difference in your skin? Do you feel like stuff is different?
Lennon: I do, especially right now at this age, going into good old estrogen rollercoaster time, I have breakouts that I was like, what is happening? So what I notice is that it's more resilient. My skin, it doesn't hold onto shit as long and it kind of bounces back. And as the sort of collagen and the elasticity is sort of leaving naturally, I find that that keeps everything kind of up to speed and ready for anything. I was just in Chicago working for seven weeks and that was crazy of the wind and the masks and the freezing cold temperatures, and then it would be hot. And so I didn't have a facial, but she set me up with some sort of stuff to do. So I do every morning and every night a whole rigmarole to take care of that.
Doree: What are you doing every morning and every night
Kate: you rise and you go into your bathroom and is there a spread of tools?
Lennon: Sometimes This doesn't happen until, I want to be honest, 10:30,
Kate: you have two kids who are on their way to school. You've got shit going on. Yeah.
Lennon: So today I made a priority to do it. I was like, I'm going to go do this now and then get dressed while they're eating. So I actually did what I needed to do. But I do an eye cream, wait, sorry. I do a face and a scrub face wash, scrub in the morning, and I do an eye cream. I'm supposed to do a toner, but I've been skipping that. I do a serum, which is for rosacea, I have mad rosacea. Then I do an active day, sort of like a retinol or glycolic or something. That's usually what happens at night, I think. Like a vitamin
Kate: Day, something that, yeah. Okay.
Lennon: Yeah. And then I do an oil, a rosacea oil usually, or a rose or a blue tanzi, depending on what Maddie gives me. I literally just do whatever she tells me to do. And then after the oil, I do a day cream. And then at night it's just replace active night, replace nourishing night. But everything else is the same serum active night oil, nourishing night. And then what? Sometimes I'll have an active and a nourishing mask that I'm supposed to do every couple days, but I don't do that. I usually do it maybe once a week maybe. But she also gave me a fast mask. That's a pumpkin that only goes on for five minutes to do in the shower. That's easier to do. And then she also gave me one that's sort of like a peel, but it doesn't really peel, but it just zaps your face with hydration.
Kate: Can I ask you a question? How have you navigated since being, because you're a performer, you're also a writer and a creator of things, but you're on camera a lot and how have you navigated whatever the kind of pressures are to appear a certain way on camera? There's large societal pressures that we all experience as humans walking through the world. But I imagine, and I know when I did a brief shit on camera, it made me feel kind of out of my mind to have to look at myself and have other people have opinions about how I looked. And I was nobody.
Lennon: Yeah.
Kate: Has that been something that you've had to grapple with or set boundaries with, or struggled with? Or have you always been able to separate reality from the pressures of stardom?
Lennon: No, I mean, we all want to look our best. I don't know. I mean, I've been a weirdo for a long time and never in my mind really physically fit in into the box that I was supposed to fit in from when I was growing up. It was like guest gene ads, that was whatever. So I was never going to be Claudia Schiffer, With my tits bursting out of a gingham crop top. And so, I don't know. I guess first of all, I feel like it's a little different for comedy women, especially character actresses. I've never been the ingenue. I've always been the funny one. So I get a little pass as far as my appearance. But yeah, I mean, my body has been changing, obviously the last 10 years for sure. And playing house debuted 10 years ago, when I look at videos or editing yourself and looking at yourself over decades is punishing. It's very punishing. Like what the fuck happened to my neck? Not to quote, no ephron, but looking at, you're just looking at all of it changing. And so it's definitely there. And I think I go through periods right now. I put myself on tape for something the other day, and it's been a minute because I was on a show, so I didn't have to do that, and I just couldn't get the angle right. I couldn't get the camera high enough to make my face look like it did 10 years ago, which of course, I'm auditioning for a part for a woman who's my age-ish. And this is the way my face looks. But it's just like it, you just, at a certain point, you're like, what's the funniest one? That's the way I look. So here it is. Hope you like it. I mean, in minks, the show that I did, I was down in Musk Skies. Oh, I know. In seventies Gear. I was like, let's just do the best version of what this is. I don't know. I mean, thank God I had the way we were Barbara Streisand as my inspiration. But yeah, I don't know how I combat it. I don't know if I do. I also, professional help is really nice when I go to events, if I don't do it myself, I always feel better if I hire somebody or if I have a publicist at the time, which all costs an insane amount of money. But I've learned things from working with those folks about brands that look good on my body and how to pair things together and things that look good on your feet and how to put a look together. There are tricks of the trade. And I've also noticed, for instance, when I go shopping for a dress, if I'm doing it on my own in the dressing room, I will take a photo of myself in the dress excluding my face, because my face has nothing to offer and it's never going to look the way that it does when I'm in full hair and makeup and I'm always making an insane face. And when I look at it, I judge the way my body looks based on the way my face looks. So if I take the face out of the equation, then I could really look and look at the dress and be like, oh, that looks good on me.
Kate: Hot tip.
Lennon: Or it doesn't,
Kate: that's really funny because when I take full body photos, I always look at the face I'm making and I'm always like, oh, but I'm just there to look at the outfit.
Lennon: Yeah,
Kate: that's a good point. Okay. Okay.
Lennon: Yeah. And you're always there on a Tuesday at 11 and nothing is going well, and you got the wrong panties on.
Kate: You haven't showered in, it's like tomorrow is the shower day.
Lennon: Yeah. So if you could bring Spanx with you, that's all the better. Or a shoe. A shoe always helps too. And a lot of times at the store, they'll have shoes that you can just be like, Hey, do you have a pair of size nines or whatever, and they'll bring it to you. Yeah.
Kate: I want to ask you about being a weirdo. You said you were weird. You described yourself that way. I know that you were in marching band. Wait, was it marching band? You were the flag person, right?
Lennon: Yeah.
Kate: The person who,
Lennon: No, I was did
Kate: The drum
Lennon: That right. I play the drums,
Kate: Which is not an inherently weird thing, but I do feel like it is a special identity that people carry with them. But I like the idea about embracing being weird. Whether it's somebody embracing it in ourselves or now you and practice doing it to your kids. Is that something that you feel intentional about?
Lennon: I mean, I guess I was getting messages from home growing up that you should just be, be whoever you are and that you should just go for it, whatever that meant to you. And I think I also relished being an unexpected. I feel like I present as mom who takes sewing classes or something, but then I start talking and you're like, oh, this woman is fucked up. Or she's got weird ideas or the way she talks. It's not the way I thought, or I dunno. So I think I always liked being, I loved being the only female drummer. You know what I mean? I was like, this is so badass. And I worked at it and I did. It was intentional. My dad was a drummer and I was like, I want to do this. And I worked really hard at it and I was on, I marched snare all four years. It's like something I'm so proud of. It did not help me get dates. It made me stand out in maybe a not ideal way, but it was okay. I was still so becoming at that time. And so it wasn't really until college that I found a tribe of people. We were all kind of freak flags fly and march into the beat of our own drum or whatever. Not to use the pun, not that there weren't people in high school that I felt that way with. Of course there were, but it didn't look like, nothing really looked like the traditional version of what I had seen in a high school movie. But it's probably not like that for most kids either.
Kate: My high school experience was so different that I have no idea. I now just try to, I mean, I shouldn't say co-opt my children's experiences, but they're going to big high schools. And so I'm like, Ooh, maybe this is what it's like your two school bands, they have a drum off their marching bands have a dual over here. Any who, yeah, I think
Lennon: I'm going to give you,
Kate: I feel like you would like it. I do think it's interesting though, that sense of self knowing to love something so much and just, I don't know. I also don't think being weird. I don't think playing the drums at a marching band is weird. I just love the idea of being endowed with the concept that you should just be who you innately are, and that's fucking great. That is something I think a lot of us have to cultivate when we're adults.
Lennon: Yeah. I think my mom, even with my name was in trying to do that, she really wanted me to have my own. And I think my parents both did, but for her, I think it was very intentional. I'm going to want you to be your own thing. I've never met another Lennon want. I want you to forge your own path. So I definitely with my kids too, I think it's really hard to get out of the way it, because you see, and you see the pitfalls coming and you're like, oh my God, I don't want, my daughter is so full right now of self-confidence. She's in fifth grade. She loves what she loves. She's unapologetic about it. She sings and dances all over the house. She wants to put herself on tape for Percy Jackson. And I'm like, I'm like, oh, no, not yet. Not, I want to preserve this version of you because this is the core of who you are and it's going to sustain you for the rest of your life. So as long as I can help her stay inside of that, she's always had a really clear vision of what is for her and what isn't for her. And not everybody has that. And I don't want her to second guess that. If you have that clarity, it's so helpful. It's so helpful in your life. And my son is the same way. He's like, nah. He very much is not into the things he's not into. Or he'll try it and he'll be like, but then the things he does love, he wants to do them every day, all day.
Kate: It's hard being a person sometimes. I mean, I say that in a loving way, but sometimes it's just hard. It's hard figuring all that out. Now, Doree, did you end up going to see the Indigo Girls movie?
Doree: I have not seen it, but feel free to discuss it.
Kate: Well,
Lennon: Are you a fan?
Doree: I'm a fan,
Lennon: Yeah. So what was your first Indigo Girls experience? When do you remember them entering your picture?
Doree: Definitely college, but I'm probably high school, but I don't totally remember because I was more into the grunge alternative world in high school. So it might've been college. I feel like closer to fine was my entry point.
Lennon: Okay. When did you graduate high school?
Doree: 1995.
Lennon: Okay. I'm 94.
Kate: But you were in Georgia living. You were.
Lennon: But I was in Living
Kate: The girl's Life. Yeah. Imagining
Lennon: Were, my introduction to them was in seventh grade. Oh my God. My Sunday school teacher, Don, this young married man, played Prince of Darkness for our Sunday school class. And I was like, what is this magic? And then I got the cassette, and then I just listened to it on repeat, especially the B side, the sad stuff like history of us. And I would just lay on my bed listening.
Kate: You're in seventh grade listening,
Lennon: Seventh grade. And then my dad took me to see them at the Fox during the Closer to Fine Tour in Atlanta, which was like the premiere. It's like where Broadway touring shows do. And we were on the front row of the balcony, and it was the first time I'd ever been to a concert with a band that was like that. You just know every word and they're your favorite. And I think I sobbed through the whole thing, which is still what I do every time I see them in concert. And then also in the film I did when I watched it, the documentary,
Kate: I only ask because I just saw the movie also, as you know. And I was with a friend who was from Georgia, and I feel like there's a really Indigo Girls, everybody in there, clearly the Indigo girls are part of whatever self-care looks like to them. And you see that in some of the fans they interview where they're like, and I think this happens a lot with music. This changed my life, or this helped me through a very hard time. But I also think there's something about the identity of the Southerners who experienced Indigo Girls. I don't know. I know as knowing you and having seen Indigo Girls concerts with you, that they've been a kind of vital part of joy for you,
Lennon: Especially in the pandemic that took it to a new level. So I mean, I saw them as much as I could through my young adult life. But then since I've been living in la, I see them every single time they come to la, which has been, I mean, I've been here enough, at least I've seen them 10 or 12 times in la. And then prior to that, I saw them a ton of times. And I took my daughter to see them for the first time. She's 10. And so that was magical. And they played a couple of the songs that I sing, the Wood song and watershed to her sometimes to put them to Bed and Fleet of Hope, which was a newer song. And then they know Closer to Fine. And Soray has her own verse, that's hers. And then Kai, we're working on,
Kate: you have it like a family sing along.
Lennon: Yeah. And so there's videos of her when she was four, hiking up Deb's Park singing The Less I Seek My Source for some intention. So it's very sweet. But yeah, I think I knew they were from Georgia. There probably is a Southern connection, I don't think, I mean, I know they're Southern. I know I'm Southern, but I probably was introduced to them because of that, because like a local band. But I don't know that, I mean, their kindness I appreciate feels very Southern. And you could really feel that in the movie. And I feel grateful to them that they exist and that they did those live shows during the pandemic. And then our friend Christie, organized, remember after Trump got elected, Christie organized this sing along, and we all went to the Clubhouse, which is an improv theater here, and just cried and sang along to a projection of lyrics. And I was like, this feels so good. I mean, I sing, this is what I do. If I'm having a low time, I put them on in my car. I sing, just sing the shit out of the high harmonies and feel whatever I feel. There's parts of songs that I literally get to every time and sing, and I'll mark transitions in my life by if that part makes me cry. And I can remember too, a younger Lenin listening to these songs and Wishing Love will come to you, which is obviously about what it says. And there's a part where she says, basically, I close my eyes and trust that it's true that this will happen for me prior to meeting my now husband, searching for that as a young person and trying to find your place in the world. I don't know. I love them.
Kate: They're good self care. They, I don't know something about them. I watched that movie and I was like, it's fascinating to me that for decades, all of us have just been glomming onto these two people for some sort of sense of everything's going to be okay. I don't know, that's, at least to me, what the Indigo Girls are. I'm like the world, everything's a shit show. They're going to make it better. They're going to make me feel better.
Lennon: Yeah. But also that it's almost permission to feel the depth of your feelings. I remember talking to Anthony and Will on his,
Kate: that's my husband,
Lennon: On their Podcast about them and that he was saying, yeah, they just, it's so dramatic, the emotions that, especially in those early albums that they wrote about, there's a song called Hey Jesus, where she's basically praying, which that feels very southern to me that Christianity is sort of woven into who they are. And she's talking shit to Jesus because her boyfriend, well, girlfriend broke up with her and she asked what she asked for was for the person to stay, and now they're gone. And now she's like, I don't know if I believe in you anymore. So it just, they give you permission to be messy. And also, there's a lot of references in their songs, I think, to where we were, where I've been, where I'm going. I look back at my last five live my last five years, and I have to laugh. So I liked all of that too.
Kate: Do you need permission to be messy?
Lennon: Yeah, I think so.
Kate: Okay. You don't feel like you can, is that, I don't know. Do you feel like you don't want to mess up in front of other people or just let the shit out? Is there a perfectionism inside of you?
Lennon: Oh, for sure. But also the presenting of cool, calm, collected. I've got it all together. And also the refusal to accept any help. Or if someone says, let me help you, I'm like, okay, but you have to do it exactly like this, please. Yeah, I think I do. Again, I present to the world someone who's got my shit together. So anytime that I feel like unfocused or foggy or overwhelmed or flooded, which comes just in life sometimes. And especially you have children, you've got parents going through things, that happens. But yeah, for sure. I feel like I, to just have to carry it all. I mean, I'm a Scorpio son with a Capricorn Rising and a cancer moon. I feel it all. But I've got a plan. And if you're a dick to me once you're off the list of life forever. Thank you very much. Kate knows this. Oh, too. Well,
Kate: I do. I do.
Doree: Kate stayed on the list though.
Lennon: Yeah. Oh, forever on the list
Kate: Thank God. But I do know that, actually, that's an interesting part. And you know what, Doree, you're kind of like this too. Neither of you guys suffer fools in any way. And I like having people like you in my life because I'm like fools, let me suffer you forever. I think a good, you're good at setting boundaries in a way, I think, I dunno. Doree, do you not think you are? Or
Doree: If you are, think for me, no, I think I am, but I think I will give people what I think are many chances, and then they finally push me to the brink and I'm like, we are done.
Lennon: Yeah, I've done that. Yeah. I mean, especially being a boss, learning how to be a boss very quickly, having to hire people. Sometimes people that are my friends or hiring some we've made, Jessica and I are really hard. When we were hiring staff for a show, we had to bring Kate's husband, Anthony in so that he could be the calm. I will give people the benefit of the doubt for years. And Jessica just wants them to like her, so she doesn't have any idea how they were in the room. So once the person leaves, I'm immediately, they were great. And Jessica's like, I thought I really like them. Or she'll say to them they were perfect, and then they leave. And then she was like, I did not like them anyway. And Anthony would just be like, I think we can do better. And so then we keep looking. But the two of us together is tough stuff.
Kate: You were talking about Jessica Sinclair, you're a writing partner and performing partner.
Lennon: Yes.
Kate: And life partner in many ways.
Lennon: Many ways. Yes.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: This show you were just talking about that you worked on with my husband playing house.
Lennon: Yeah.
Kate: Well, you've worked him with two shows.
Lennon: Yeah.
Kate: You know what I'm saying? You've worked on two shows with him.
Lennon: Yes.
Kate: It was so much about friendship, which I love. And I feel like so much of your work is about that.
Lennon: Yeah.
Kate: Can we just touch on the importance of friendship in your life and showing up for friends?
Lennon: Oh, Yeah.
Kate: What it means to you. Have you ever failed at it? No. It's okay to say no. Maybe you never
Lennon: Have. I'll tell you one of the episodes. We based on a moment when I misjudged the time and missed the train to my best friend, Teresa's Baby shower. And I threw a tantrum on the bed as if I were a three-year-old screaming. And my husband came in, was like, what's that? And I was like, I messed up. I, so I was just at the end of my rope. And then of course he made fun of me for years about it, but I ended up having to get one of those zip cars.
Kate: Yeah, I remember those.
Lennon: And drive up there. And I made, I was a little late. But yeah, I think there's also times the importance of career in your life because of the fleeting nature of it and the seize every opportunity or else it'll never come again, kind of thing that we feel as we're coming up. I think I've made some shitty decisions putting priority on my career versus, I remember I took a job that kept me in LA an extra day, and I missed time at home for Thanksgiving. And it was the first time I was bringing my daughter home to the house I had grown up in. And I called my mom and I was like, ah, I got this job and I have to take it, or I want to take it, and so I'm going to miss half of the trip, basically. And the minute I said it, I was like, I knew I made the wrong decision, but I'd already made it.
Kate: You've mentioned parents, and I do think for people our age, there is this whole, all of a sudden you're in this new weird world of caregiving for our aging parents, which looks different for Everyone.
Lennon: Sure.
Kate: Everyone of course. But do you have any thoughts or how has that experience been for you?
Lennon: I'm an only child, so it's just me. And that was great when we were the Three Musketeers and we're very close, and I love them incredibly. And they've moved here. We were able to move them out here to be closer to us and to my kids. I was basically flying them here every three months, and they would stay for two weeks in my home. And that was just got to be tough stuff. And they were considering moving, and I was, well, would you ever want to come here? And my mom's a therapist, and she was like, well, I just didn't want to put that on you. So once I said it out loud, and she was like, well, we can't afford it. And I was like, well, I think I can help and we'll figure it out. And so now they've been here for six years and they live about 18 minutes away from me. And that's been an adjustment. It's literally one of the best decisions we've ever made because my dad had a transplant, a kidney transplant when I was pregnant with my daughter. And so with that comes a lot of health challenges and also enabled him to live much longer than he would've in kidney failure or on dialysis. But having them here and figuring out how to get them to the doctor's appointments and helping them find the right doctors. And last summer, my dad had a fall. He had covid. He got covid, and then he had a fall, and he broke his hip and he tore his rotator cuff, and he had already had the other rotator cuff was torn. So driving is off the table until that gets remedied. And also he was in the hospital and then rehab for four weeks, five weeks altogether. And so when he came back, he was very different. He was in a different place. And I think in my, I'm going to take care of it all. When I would go visit him, for instance, in the hospital, I would go into nurse mode. I would be like, we need this. We got to get this, we got to get this. And I'm also like, why isn't he asking for this stuff? Why isn't he advocating for himself? Well, because I am. And also, I can't micromanage all of that. It will kill me, or I'll be so tired and have nothing left for my work or for my family or for myself. Remember, I would last on the list.
Kate: Should we title this episode last on the list?
Lennon: So I think the thing that I learned, especially last year and kind of coming through this was like, this is his journey, his process, his acceptance of where he is, his driving. And some of it is like I can't help with, and that's okay, but I cannot do it all. And if I do it all, then he also won't learn to do it himself. And also he won't want to do it because he didn't choose it. I chose it.
Kate: I want to ask, and you kind of touched about this under the beginning of our conversation, but have you been able to start putting yourself first more or is that the biggest kind of work in progress right now for you?
Lennon: I mean, really, it is my work to do, right?
Kate: Yeah. It's your thing.
Lennon: Nobody else is going to do that. They're all happy. I mean, well, I shouldn't say they're all happy when I do it, but it's always better when I do it because I am better. I just was out of town for seven weeks working on somebody somewhere, which
Kate: Glennon, that show is so good.
Lennon: It's so good. Wait till you see season three. And I get so filled up there and I feel so useful and good at it, and I come back tired. But I, and I feel that same way when I go away for a weekend with my girlfriends, I just feel nourished in a way and totally filled up. And so when I come back, I can kind of ride the waves of what's happening here a little bit easier, but I also have a better bird's eye view of what's not working for me. And I know it's difficult for my family when I'm gone, everybody had to step up in a different way with me, gone this long, I came home twice, but my husband did an incredible job and the kids had to do things for themselves that probably I was doing for them without even thinking about it. But I came home and immediately somebody asked me where something was and I was like, I don't know. I haven't been here. Ask your dad. I don't know where that thing is. I mean, it's probably in this drawer or over here or in this, right? I mean, you probably do know where it is, But last time I saw it, I don't know. You know what I mean? But that is so ingrained in them to lean on me and rely on me for some of that stuff that again, they're not doing it for themselves. And there are things that I need them to do in our home to make our functioning house. I need to be asking more of them. I guess. It's kind of pick your battles, but
Kate: Yeah, it's also one of those easier said than done things about life. Right,
Lennon: Totally.
Kate: Well, Lennon, thank you so, so much for joining us. It's such a treat to talk to you as a podcast. When do you know when somebody somewhere comes out? Season three of it.
Lennon: I don't, we're editing it right now. I just finished my director's pass on. I did three this season.
Kate: That's amazing.
Lennon: And I also wrote two of them, so that was exciting.
Doree: Oh my gosh.
Lennon: So my next thing is to edit the finale.
Kate: Oh, wow.
Doree: Cool.
Lennon: That's it. I don't know. I don't know what the plan is. I would hope that it comes out this year, but I haven't heard anything to tell me that.
Kate: Where do you direct people when they're like, I want to know what you're up to. Where do you send people? Where do people follow you? Is it Instagram, I guess?
Lennon: Yeah, Instagram just @LenonParham.
Kate: Thanks, Lennon. You're the best.
Doree: Thank you. Lenon.
Lennon: Thank you guys. The pleasure to talk to you.
Kate: So you know what, it's kind of interesting, Doree, that we chatted with Lennon about the Indigo Girls because my intention last week was to get another live performance on the calendar. It's quite a sigh.
Doree: Have you bought tickets to see The Indigo Girls?
Kate: No, because I don't think I'm going to be in Los Angeles when they come, but I did go see the Indigo Girls movie, which felt like a live performance. I saw it in a theater, and I am buying tickets to see Catherine Cohen's standup show. I really love her. Doree, if you want to go, Anthony and I are going to go. She's great.
Doree: Yeah, let's talk about that off.
Kate: Let's offline it. Yeah. I love, if you haven't watched her standup special on Netflix. I love it so much. I've watched it like 50 times, maybe five, but I've watched it a lot. So she's doing a live show in la, so I am going to go to that, and my intention this week is that I'm going to sign up to walk a half marathon.
Doree: Ooh, this is exciting.
Kate: I'm not running it. I'm walking it.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: My friends, I have some friends who are running a half marathon, this half marathon, and they were like, does anyone want to run it with us? This is my little core group of college friends. And I was like, LOL? No, I don't want to run it, but I would walk it. It is the Portland half marathon in Portland, Oregon, and they have a really nice long timeframe that you can finish in because a lot of these races make it very short. So if you're walking, it can be really challenging to finish in the allotted timeframe. But this one is really lenient, and so I Think I'm going to sign up to walk it and see how that goes.
Doree: Very cool, Kate.
Kate: Thank you, Doree.
Doree: This is exciting.
Kate: I'm excited. How about you tell me your intentions this week?
Doree: This past week?
Kate: Well, last week.
Doree: Last week? Yeah, last week. I just sort of had mental health as an intention, and I think that, I don't know, I feel like I have a little bit of a better handle on things, but just the sense of impending doom. It's still looming.
Kate: I love that feeling. That's always a really great feeling.
Doree: Yeah, it's a great feeling. I think what I know is that this feeling is, it's like circumstantial it, it's dictated by my circumstances. It's not like I'm depressed kind of broadly. Do you know what I mean?
Kate: Yes, Yes. I know exactly what you mean
Doree: And I can acknowledge that I'm aware of that. So I think that's good. So I'm just currently trying to figure out how to mitigate the sense of impending doom this week. So actually when this airs, we will be in the midst of Passover. It is also the first night of Passover is the day after Henry's birthday and birthday party, and then today is the day this airs is Henry's actual birthday. So I've just been so consumed with planning his party and dealing with that, that I have not thought about Passover at all. So I think we'll just end up doing some small thing with just us, and that's fine, because I just don't have the spoons right now, as they say.
Kate: I've never heard that phrase, but I love that you don't have the spoons.
Doree: No, it's a big phrase in the disability community.
Kate: I've never heard that. That's a good way of putting it.
Doree: Yeah, so that's just, I guess my intention is just sort of Passover holidays, because holidays tend to be a little bit of a trigger for me, and so not in a way that I think they are for a lot of other people in the sense of they don't bring up bad memories. For me, I just get sad that I'm away from my family and no one's invited me to a Seder. You know what I mean? I'm like, oh, I'm sad
Kate: For many of us holidays. There's a community aspect to them. And to feel like that part is missing is, I think that's rightfully saddening. I don't know that it seems valid.
Doree: That's just what I'm kind of navigating right now. Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for listening. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everybody. Bye.