Episode 300: Feeling Like Yourself at 40 with Franchesca Ramsey
Doree has another great en-Doree-sment of a nail product and Kate is stoked to try it. Then, they talk with multi-hyphenate Franchesca Ramsey (you might know her as @Chescaleigh) about the beauty of a good foot rub, the social media app you shouldn’t sleep on, the way her online presence has changed over the years, and feeling the most like herself at forty.
Photo credit: Kim Newmoney
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35. This is a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts.
Doree: We're not. We're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: I'm so excited because you're going to share something that you texted me last night.
Doree: Oh yeah, I sure am.
Kate: And I'm kind of in the mood to dig into nails today. So why don't we just get into this?
Doree: Let's get into this. So I was sent some products by a company called Dr. Dana, and they sent me two of their products. One of the things they sent me was a nail renewal system that promise to it says revitalizes, dry, brittle nails. Instantly,
Kate: Instantly,
Doree: Instantly. And then they also sent me their no Polish manicure set, get shiny, healthy nails instantly. Okay. I got to admit, I was skeptical.
Kate: Well, that's how you operate.
Doree: That's how I'm, I can't fight who I'm,
Kate: no, you can't. And quite honestly, I wouldn't want you to.
Doree: And you know what I think? I hope that this makes listeners take what I say seriously, because I am such a skeptic.
Kate: You are. Doree does not suffer fools when it comes to testing out products.
Doree: No. So when I say that something works, it works. And so I was like, okay, my nails could use some renewal. My nails are kind of not, they're not the best. I'm going to try this nail renewal system. And what it is, is first you put on a glycolic prep for nails that comes in this little, I'm holding it up, Kate. Can you see it?
Kate: Okay.
Doree: It's like a little
Kate: Brush
Doree: Pencil. Yeah. Little that twist. And the stuff comes out through the brush and you brush it on your nails and you let that dry. And then they also include this, there's like a three part nail file.
Kate: I love this kind of nail file.
Doree: So on one side it says oh one, and then the other side, there's two different colors. O2 and O three you brush, and this is the priming wand. So you sweep surface O one over nails two to five times until a powdery overlay appears. Then you repeat with surface O2 pressing more firmly sweep surface O three across nails until they become glossy. And I was sort of like, okay, so I do it and I'm like, oh, my nails do look kind of glossy. And then the last step is the dehydrating formula. It's like a gel oil and you're supposed to put it on your nails in your cuticles, and it says reapply is needed throughout the week and you're supposed to do this once a week. So the first time I did it, I was like, oh, my nails do look pretty good. They just look nice. Everything was smooth. It was like, okay. And then I've been doing it once a week, so I've been doing it probably now for four weeks. The other day I looked down at my nails. I'm like, oh, my nails. They're growing. And usually when they start growing, they get very brittle and they break. Can you see them?
Kate: Hold on. Yeah. They look long.
Doree: Yeah, they're long. And you know what they feel like. Can you hear that strong?
Kate: I hear you tapping back there.
Doree: They feel strong.
Kate: Well, I promptly went and ordered this off their website when I received Doree's text because I love to buy things
Doree: And try things
Kate: and try things. But you know what, actually I have been on a bit of a nail journey, which is why it was funny that you just happened to mention this last night because I have stopped getting gel manicures as of October when I got a gel manicure and something happened. I don't know if it was during the removal or what, but it peeled away a huge chunk of a layer of my nail. And I finally was like, this is my sign to stop. I had to grow out this kind of weird chunk that was missing in my thumbnail. And it took about five months to grow it out. And during that time, I was using an OPI kind of alternated between this OPI nail repair stuff. It's called OPI, repair Mode bond, and then another nail repair product, which the name is escaping me, but I'll make sure to have it correct in our show notes. So if you want to click on it, you can find it. And then in the last month, I dug out my old bottle of OPI nail envy, and I have been applying it religiously and being really consistent and my nails feel really strong and healthy. So I have been trying to really just accept my natural nails and then try to treat them as best I can rather than trying to cover them up with a gel or a hard gel. I have just kind of finally realized, and it took me long enough that my nails are super thin and super weak and it's just not going to work. I'm not going to be a person who can wear a gel X extension and then go about my life. So how can I make them healthy? Well, Doree seems to have found a really intriguing answer. And you know what I have followed because I got really into nail repairing, like nail care in the last year or so. So I have seen this woman, this doctor on TikTok for a while. I have looked at this nail care kit and I've been like, no way is this real and have watched her videos. So you've changed, I mean, your testimony, I should say has inspired me to go for it. So I will report back.
Doree: I'm really curious to hear what you think. I'm also wondering if I could use this on my toe nails.
Kate: I'm sure you could,
Doree: Because my toenails really need help.
Kate: I don't see why not.
Doree: So now I haven't tried the manicure yet, but I'm planning on it. So that's my endorsement for today, Kate.
Kate: I like this Doree. I'm excited to try this out. Caroline Moss recommended another nail care kit on her Instagram, and I was going to look at that as well. I apologize for not knowing the name of it off the top of my head. I'm sure Caroline is so good about having everything linked and organized. I'm sure it can be found in her newsletter or on her site or her Instagram, but she also had something that she was like, this really works. I love this. And she's another person who doesn't share stuff unless she truly likes it.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: I'm glad that everybody's kind of taking care of their nails because I got to say, I don't know. I know some people can wear a lot of the heavier polish, but it really messes up my nails every time.
Doree: It's intense. It's really intense.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: Well, Kate, should we introduce our guest?
Kate: Oh my gosh. Talk about somebody who expresses themselves with their nails and their beautiful nail art.
Doree: Yes, yes,
Kate: Yes. Doree, why don't you tell everybody who we're talking to today,
Doree: We are talking to none other than Francesca Lee Ramsey known as Chesca Lee on social media. She is an American comedian, activist television and YouTube personality and actress who has appeared on MTV and M-S-N-B-C. She's a multi-talented artist who star in various roles on TV and film written for Comedy Central and Amazon. She's also the creator and star of the award-winning web series, MTV, decoded. She also hosts the popular podcast, let me Fix it. And she is also the host of another podcast, black History for Real, that launched a few months ago on Wondery that is also really great. She is like when people use the word, I feel like that is, there's a picture of Francesca Ramsey there.
Kate: Yeah, I mean, what can't she do?
Doree: What can't she do? She's amazing. I loved getting to talk to her. So yeah, so enjoy our conversation.
Kate: Well, as I said to Doree yesterday, Francesca, you are someone who I have followed online forever, beyond a decade. I would say what
Doree: Same.
Kate: This is very exciting for both of us. I think partially because our internet dreams are coming true, but also because it's just been so amazing to get to experience your life along with you over such an extended period of time. So thank you for so generously bringing us along on your journey.
Franchesca: Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah, it is. I have been on the internet a very long time. It's bizarre to even really think about
Kate: It is right? It's like we've all been living in the same dorm for a hundred years or something. It's weird. I don't know what the equivalent is, but it's a strange experience. Well, We kick off every episode with guests asking about a current self-care practice in their life, and this can really be absolutely anything, whatever that looks like to you, big or small. Is there anything that you are doing right now or engaging in right now that helps you take care of yourself?
Franchesca: I love a foot rub. There's a foot rub placed by my apartment. It's $30 for an hour, and they even throw in a little shoulder rub too, and it's delightful. It's so nice. And I know some people have weird things about feet, so do with this what you will, but I enjoy it. I feel like it's low pressure. I don't have to get naked. I don't want to put a robe on. I can still look at my phone, which I love. I love listen to music and scroll through Pinterest while I get my foot, feet rubbed. That's been a really nice way for me to unwind and unplug.
Kate: I went to a foot rub.
Doree: You have a foot thing.
Kate: I don't like feet. I don't think I would succeed in giving foot rubs professionally, honestly, personally. But I recently went to my first foot massage place and it was unreal. It was so relaxing and felt truly, there's so decadent, So In there, a lot a, yeah, they hold a lot and they're often overlooked.
Franchesca: Yes.
Kate: Good choice. I love that.
Doree: I want to ask about one other thing that you said when you were describing this, that you were scrolling through Pinterest and I feel like
Franchesca: Yes,
Doree: We don't talk about Pinterest as much anymore.
Franchesca: Oh, Pinterest is when I want to unplug my brain. I look on Pinterest. There's something really I just calming about. I love, for me, my boards are all very organized. It's like recipes. I'm never going to make clothing. I'm never going to buy homes that I'm never going to live in. But there's something nice about seeing things and I'm like a Pokemon trainer. I'm like, Ooh, there's a piece of jewelry. Put it on my jewelry board. There's a piece of artwork, and I just, I don't know. It's almost like it's a mix and match game, I guess. And I like it, especially when I'm getting foot rub, because I don't want to read news and I don't want to scroll through Instagram and see what everybody else is doing. I don't want to read gossip, want to look at anything that's disturbing my piece. Pinterest is just pretty images, so that's my foot rub process.
Kate: It's interesting, Doree, that you mentioned. We don't hear about Pinterest because it's still huge.
Franchesca: Huge, totally.
Kate: And my kids love it.
Doree: Oh, interesting.
Kate: Teens and tweens use Pinterest. Yes. I have to monitor their Pinterest because they're not on other social media platforms, but all these 13 year olds are on Pinterest.
Franchesca: I love it because it really does learn who you are, so it just populates you. Save for me, I really love really bold eye makeup and stuff, bald, girly. So I need some makeup on my face, and so I save one blue eyeliner and it's like, here's 80 more blue eyeliners. And I'm like, yes.
Kate: It's weirdly almost the kind of thing where the algorithm is doing what it's supposed to do in a good way. Yes.
Franchesca: Yeah, 1000%. It really works.
Kate: Interesting. It also sounds like, and I don't know if it does this for you, but what you're describing is almost scratching the itch of putting things in a cart almost. You're curating, you're a sims and you're curating your own sims self. I don't know. There's something kind of nice about, and maybe it's aspirational, I don't know, but that sounds soothing, but also it's scratches an itch that sometimes I scratch in other ways, less productive ways maybe.
Franchesca: Yeah, no, it really is. It's also kind of window shopping. It's just very low pressure. I'm just like, Ooh, that's pretty. Oh, I love that. I would love to make that. I'd love to live there. That's so cool. I look at DIY projects that I'm never going to do, but I'm just fascinated. I love watching people's process. I love looking at Architectural Digest and looking at people's closets and stuff. And so I get to do all of that on Pinterest from the comfort of my home or a foot massage chair.
Doree: Kate, I feel like we've also been talking a lot recently about how so much of social media has kind of strayed from its original roots. And as we're talking about Pinterest, it does kind of occur to me that this is because it is social media, but it feels nicer somehow.
Franchesca: Yeah. It's not angry. It's not about people yelling at each other.
Doree: Totally.
Franchesca: And full disclosure, I do a bit of yelling on the internet at times. Sometimes we need that. There's a lot to yell about. There's a lot to yell about. It can be very cathartic, and especially when it comes to finding community around shared interest, even if it's something you're mad about that can really make you feel seen, you're shouting into a void, and now here are people that see you and are affirming, you're not out of your mind. But what I really like about Pinterest, I mean, not us doing a paid Pinterest slide by dms. I know. Come with a, give me a brand deal of sun. Y'all must have some money. Money, yeah. I like that. It's just creative. And I think that that's the thing that I miss about social media, to your point, is that so much of content creation now is about trolling people or baiting you into a response or all stuff. And Pinterest is literally, here's a recipe that I made, and you're just like, oh, this is great. Or Here's a piece of art that I worked on. It's not trying to trick you. I mean, it's like everything else. You have to have this moment of, is this real? Why are you saying this to me? Are you trying to get me upset? Are you telling me the whole truth? Is this AI manipulated? And on Pinterest, I feel like I know how to think about that.
Kate: Do you feel like as someone who has been sharing online in so many ways for a long time, and truly creating content before that was really a thing, do you feel more guarded? Have your boundaries changed or your relationship to the online spaces changed?
Franchesca: Great question. Yes, I, here's the thing. So I've been making video content specifically for almost 20 years. I started making videos in 2006,
Kate: Which is like when YouTube launched,
Franchesca: I was in college, YouTube launched 2005. I was in college, and I asked for an iMac for graduation. It had a camera in it, and I was like, I really want to make videos. So when I started, I just shared so much. I shared way too much. And I learned over time that I needed to close that door. And it's a blessing and a curse because it helped me build my audience. But to your point, I am now at a place where I do share, but in a way where it makes the audience think I'm sharing way more than I am. And they don't realize I film every video from this couch. You don't know, I talk about dating. I don't talk about who I'm dating. I talk about work. I don't talk about where I'm not talking about what I'm working on. You people are, and again, the downside of it is, is that people have a supreme level of comfort talking to me in a way that I would never talk to strangers.People share really difficult things going on in their lives, which I feel so honored that they trust me with those things. But then also people will be like, you should do dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, we do not know each other. Or you're better than this. I'm disappointed that you did dah, dah, dah. I'm like, you don't know. You really don't know anything about me. You know what I show you. And so I really am in a place where I share less about my personal life, and when I do share things about my personal life, I have distance from it. So I'm like, this thing happened and it happened three years ago. It didn't happen last week.
Kate: Smart.
Franchesca: Yeah.
Kate: That's really interesting. Because the realtime share is so,
Franchesca: Yeah, I don't do that.
Kate: The urge to just have it happen and then immediately post it. Do, I'm sorry, interrupted you.
Doree: No, I was just going to say it's like how Kim Kardashian used to post from her trips, and then she got robbed, and now it's all later whenever she posts about a trip of hers, it's always after the fact. She's never still there. Same with her whole family.
Franchesca: Similarly, I'm not like I'm walking my dog right now. I'm on my way to the gym. I just got back from a trip. I'm packing because I'm going out of town. I don't do any of that anymore. And I used to.
Doree: I love your point though. I mean, I think for them it's largely a safety and security thing, but I like how you are also framing it as this gives you time to just do it more on your own terms and think, take a moment to reflect on exactly what you want to say.
Franchesca: Oh, yeah. Especially if it's to your point, it is the safety stuff too. But it's also, if I get into an argument with somebody and I'm really mad about it in the past, my instinct would be, and I mean past 10, 12 years ago, I would make content about it. And now I give myself time to process and really understand how I feel about it and not make a snap judgment. And even when I make content about things going on in the world, I kind of wait to see one. When a news story breaks, you don't always have all the information. The information changes every single day. The Kate Middleton thing is a perfect example. No shade to anyone who was making jokes about it. I understood the impulse. But now here we are a few weeks later and everyone's like, holy shit. I said some crazy stuff. It's like, yeah, you could have waited a week. It goes way two weeks, and then just take a temperature check. And for me, I'm also, especially when it comes to pop culture and trending news, I'm at a place where I don't want to say something just to say something. I'm only going to say something if I think I have something to add to the conversation and something that I haven't seen anybody else say. But that's not where social media is right now.
Doree: I was going to say that is a novel concept.
Franchesca: Yeah. But I would argue that's why I've been able to make content for so long. Because there's some people that are like, okay, this thing happened. I have to make a video this moment because the wave is going to pass and no one's going to be talking about this tomorrow. And I'm kind of like, well, I'm not going to make a video saying the same thing everyone else is saying. I'd rather just wait and figure out what my take on it is. Or maybe I have nothing to say and I'm like, or share something somebody else posted.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: Was there a moment from your life that kind of shifted the way you handle things? Or is it just years of experience and growth and watching the way change as a human and also the way the world has changed online?
Franchesca: Yeah. I think it's a little bit of both. Yeah. I mean, my first TV job was on the nightly show, comedy Central. And I was very active on Snapchat at the time and on Instagram, but I don't think we had Instagram stories yet. And I would Snapchat everything. I would be like, Hey, Snapchat, I'm walking to work. Hey, Snapchat. I'm leaving the gym. Hey, I'm doing, and I would just share, share, share so much. And I remember one day after we had taped the show, I was really about how I felt. I had performed on the panel, and we were in Larry's office, and I was just like, oh, I think I did a bad job. And Larry was like, well, maybe if you didn't spend so much time on Snapchat. Oh my God, I forgot that my boss had access to the same internet.
Doree: Oh my God.
Franchesca: And I was like, yeah, that's a good point to me. I'm always someone who's juggling multiple things, but if I was being really honest with myself, I was giving time and energy to places that were not making me productive at work. And then I was feeling unproductive at work, and I was going, oh, well, yeah, mama, you're on Twitter all day arguing with people, and you're showing your work on Snapchat instead of doing the work. So that was a really eyeopening moment for me, and just thinking about my online presence as a resume of sorts, for better or for worse, hopefully you see my work and you're like, oh, I want to work with her. Or you see my work, or you see my values, and you're like, no, she's not going to be the right fit for us. And so thinking about, would I be okay with a prospective employer seeing this? And my mom follows me on social media, so I'm always like, oh God, my mom's going to see this.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Oh. So I don't know. I appreciate that so much because I think it, it's really hard to resist the kind of internalized and externalized pressure to always be sharing and participating and having something to say. And this has been something I've been thinking a lot about over the last few years. And it's a weird, it takes work. It goes kind of against the flow of everything right now, and it feels, oh, I personally find it challenging.
Franchesca: I saw someone say this, and I'm probably going to butcher it, but this is not coming from my brain. But this idea that we were not meant to know what hundreds of thousands of people are thinking at the same time.
Kate: Yes.
Franchesca: And we're not supposed to be able to just, everybody has bad takes. Some are worse than others. Some are objectively oppressive, some are objectively racist, sexist, homophobic, all the isms, whatever. And then sometimes you just need to say the dumb thing out loud to go, that doesn't make sense. Why did I even say that? But social media pushes you to produce a whole piece of content about it and do it as fast as possible and hope it gets in front of the most eyeballs. And then a few hours later you're like, holy shit. I actually don't think that at all, or my opinion has changed on that because I have new information. And social media doesn't really encourage nuance. Sometimes more than one thing can be true, and it can't be summed up into 240 characters, or it can't be summed up into TikTok is so short form. And that's been really hard for me to learn. I was so used to the YouTube school of thought where it was five to seven minutes. Now, if I make a two minute video, people will be like, long, this is too long. And I'm like, two minutes.
Kate: Wow.
Franchesca: Everything can't be summed up in two minutes. So you're right. It is counterintuitive.
Doree: You're bringing, as you're kind of mentioning all these platforms and different jobs you've had, you're bringing up something that I was curious about as I was listening to your episode of Let Me Fix It, the Behind the podcast episode.
Franchesca: Oh, thanks.
Doree: Because I mean, it was a really amazing episode, and I encourage everyone to listen to it just because your podcast is great, but also, I mean, you really get into it what it is like to be a creative person and the economics of it. And it also made me think about just how much uncertainty and reinvention we are constantly being asked to do and how it's just all such a hustle. I'm wondering today, how, right now, how are you feeling about the hustle, especially in light of how the whole world of media has changed in the last 10 to 15 years
Kate: And also having still coming off of a very long two strikes?
Franchesca: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I am pretty exhausted. I am very much in a place where I've been my own boss for a long time, and it's truly a blessing and a curse. I am somebody who thrives on schedule. I'm very type A. And a big part of that is because I have so little certainty in my career, I have to be like, these are the times I work out. These are the times I play tennis. These are the times I have available to go to dinner with friends. I don't go out on these nights. I don't do whatever it is that I am kind of creating as my schedule that I'm working within. It really helps me because otherwise, day to day, I'm like, I literally, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know when an audition is coming in. I don't know when a meeting's coming in. I don't know when a check is coming in. I have to chase people for money. I have to tap dance for opportunities. It's very, very tiresome. And to your point about the strikes, I definitely feel like last year the thing that was getting me through was the prospect of the strikes ending and going back to some sort of normalcy. And that just hasn't happened. And I was maybe naive in that respect, but I just needed something to get through. The strike was so hard, literally no working. And I was like, okay, what do I do now? So I had to create my own new schedule during that. And then as for just what I'm doing, I'm juggling a bunch of jobs, which again, I'm very fortunate, but I look forward to a time where I have one. I would love just one job. I don't know what that's like one W2. Yeah.
Kate: What a weird concept.
Franchesca: I can't even imagine. So I will say, despite the uncertainty, I feel like I've hit or I've reached a creative peak that I'm excited about. I feel like I've been doing a lot of music stuff recently, which has been really fun. Cool. And that's been cool because I've always been musical, but I haven't really done a ton of music online. Little bits here and there, but I'm writing music, I'm playing instruments, I'm doing all this stuff. I'm writing songs based off trending stories, and I'm like, nobody else is fucking doing this. Bam, here's a song. And so that's been really exciting. I'm not making a living off of it, but I'm feeling really creative and inspired. I have three songs going at all times where I'm like, oh, this will be a good idea. And I'm kind of waiting for a news story to tie the song to.
Doree: That's really cool.
Kate: Have you always been a music person or is that something you kind of,
Franchesca: yeah.
Doree: Oh, Okay. That's so cool.
Franchesca: I had a brief second where I really thought I was going to be a singer. Do you guys remember Jane Magazine?
Doree: Of course.
Franchesca: So Jane, Jane used to have this yearly reader CD contest where you could submit music and they would put out a CD that they would mail out with the magazine in a plastic sheet and the CD would be in there. And I had a song on that CD. One year I was dating this guy who, his dad was a musician and he had a studio in his house, and we cut a demo and I turned in one of the songs. It was on the reader cd. The CD went out to a bunch of record labels, and I had a meeting with Columbia and I was like, oh my God, I'm making, and I'm going to become a singer. And they really wanted me to spend a bunch of money on a demo that I didn't have. They were like, the songs were good, but they were recorded in somebody's garage. And they were like, you need a real demo before we can try and do showcase with you and all the, that helps you get signed and stuff. And I didn't have the money to do it. So yeah, I didn't do it, but I played guitar, I played piano, and I was in musical theater and I was in a band and I had a dance record when I was in college that got some airplay a little bit. I just
Kate: That's so cool.
Franchesca: Yeah. I've always just done a lot of artsy things. I've always had my hands in lots of creative pots.
Kate: You wrote a book a few years ago, and when I knew we were going to talk to you remembered what an impact it had on. Again, not to be like me, me, but I am going to say me, me, me. But I appreciated this so much that you at the time shared. And I think you shared even a picture from your journal about how you had set this goal for yourself of being a New York Times bestseller and how it didn't happen, and the process that you went through of setting this goal and it not happening, and then feeling a certain way about yourself and about that and not taking a minute to pause what you did accomplish. And maybe also it led you to think a little bit about even just what it means, how we define success and all these things. And it was valuable for me as another human being to see somebody else talk about not just setting goals and not meeting them, but disappointment and what it means to let yourself feel that. Because especially I think even now, six years later, online is even more performative what we put online and the perception is so not the reality. And I'm curious, do you reflect back on that now? Was that a turning point for you in processing what you viewed as your successes and failures?
Franchesca: Yeah. Oh my God, thank you for saying that. I, 1000%, I remember I went back to therapy ahead of my book being published largely because I was dealing with so much anxiety about the book coming out. And I was also in the process of doing a pilot at Comedy Central at the same time as the book
Kate: Super Chill.
Franchesca: And I was so exhausted, I was so stressed out. And it was also, it kind of like that Jane Raider city. It was this moment of everybody around me, me being like, this is it. Your whole life's going to change. Enjoy this right now. We'd be at lunch, we'd be like, you're not going to be able to do this ever again because next year you're going to have a show on TV and you're going to be a star. And I was like, nah. I was so stressed. So I got back into therapy. I was like, I need some help with this. And something my therapist talked a lot about with me, and I still talk to her about this day, to this day, is setting goals that you can control. Because when you set a goal for yourself that the metrics are not things that you personally can determine their outcome, you're kind of setting yourself up for failure. Can't decide that I can't make myself a New York Times bestseller. I can't make myself have a hit TV show. I can't make myself book the audition, but I can write five pages a day. I can have a really great, make sure that I'm off book for my audition. I can take a sketch class. I can do all of these things to help me invest in my craft and continue challenging myself in that way. But I can't determine the outcome. And so the New York Times bestseller thing, as I'm sure you both know, there's so many other factors that have nothing to do with how many books you sell. That was a mind breaker to me because there were people on that list that I knew I sold more books then I was like, how is this person on the list? And my therapist was like, that kind of proves the point, right? You can't determine that. There's just no way. And then if you look at the New York Times bestseller list, there's sometimes people's names, the little dagger next to it. It means that there's questionable potential that they mask purchased books because that's a thing that people do. And I was like, that's fucked up. You guys know something sketchy happened with this book and it's still on the list. I was pissed. I was so pissed, Opus. But yeah, it's been a continuous learning process for me and I'm still in it. I turned 40 last year and I feel like that's been a thing where I'm like, Ugh, everyone's 27 and everyone's blowing up. And I'm like, love that for you. And I do. I love all of that for y'all, but having this feeling, what am I doing? But also just acknowledging that I'm doing the best that I can and I can't control the outcome and stressing about, it's not going to change it. So I might as well just be like, well, this what's going to be,
Doree: Everybody does feel 27 right now.
Franchesca: Everyone is 27
Kate: or younger. Or younger.
Doree: Is this what people in their forties said about us? Yes. When we were 27. Did they, I mean it was you sure?
Franchesca: I hope they did. I hope did. I hope they did
Doree: Deserve
Franchesca: They earned it.
Doree: I guess. Did I feel like I was the center of the universe when I was 27? Did I just do in your twenties there is this vibe of invincibility and you kind of feel like everything, even though nothing.
Franchesca: I just remember being a kid and my mom picking me up from school one time and my friends being like, your mom's so pretty. And I'm like, she's 40. And I felt like, I felt like I was somehow being like, isn't that crazy? She's attractive and 40.
Kate: I know. And then you hit it and you're like, what? I can't believe that was the age I thought was so old.
Franchesca: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I do feel definitively adult, but I also just feel the most me I've ever felt in my life, which is incredible, but also kind of disorienting. I just know myself so well at this age and my friends too, where they're like, we're not going to invite for Jessica. She's not coming to that. I'm like, that's right. I'm sure not. I don't do that. I'm not interested in that. Whatever. It's versus a time in my life where I would be so worried about how I would be perceived if I didn't do certain things or if someone didn't like me or I felt like there was friction or whatever. There's just so much micromanaging how other people feel about me, and I'm so past that now. I'm just like, whatever. You're going to think how you think. This is it. Take it or leave it. You're not my person. You're not my person. You're not the friend I'm supposed to be friends with. You're not the place I'm supposed to be working, whatever it is. And there's something so liberating about that. Yes,
Kate: It sounds amazing. I'm not there yet, but I would like That is aspirational for me. That sounds, take those coattails.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: Do you have thoughts on how self-care or your perspective on beauty has changed over the years?
Franchesca: Yeah, it's so interesting because I got kind of into TikTok in the past two years. I was late. I missed the boat on it. I was really like, Ugh, I don't want to be on TikTok. I really enjoy it. It's really fun. But the thing that's been so interesting for me is the audience is so young there and they can never believe that I'm 40. They go nuts. Anytime I mention that I'm 40, they're always like, wow, you look amazing. And I'm like, I look fine. But also 40 is not old. So my perspective on age is so different now because I used to think that 40 was old also, and I like how I look, but I also invest how I look. I wear makeup, I do skincare. I got my eyebrows. I wear under eye cream. I do all of those things. And so this whole conversation that's been happening online recently around, does Gen Z look old and do millennials look young? I kind of hate when people tell me, they're like, girl, you look 26.
Kate: Totally.
Franchesca: No, I don't. Don't look 26. And there's nothing wrong with looking 40. It was so weird. There was this whole trend of people being like Saw how old do I look? Saw? It was so strange. So my perspective is very much just like
Kate: Totally
Franchesca: Aging is a privilege and not everybody gets to get old. Getting older is not something we should be fighting against. It's natural. There's something wrong with getting older. It's okay to care about how you look, but this relentless pursuit of youth is so dystopian when certain people are literally crystallized at a certain age because they pass away. And here you are being like, I can't have one line on my face. Life is way too short for that. So that's been a new revelation for me. And also my body has changed. At 40, I used to be so obsessed with being thin. I used to just be always dieting and always running and blah, blah, blah. And now I'm like, this is just it. I work out to feel strong and to feel accomplished and have that schedule. And my goals in the gym are being able to do pullups and flexibility. I really want to be able to do a split. Those are my goals. They're not like I need to have a certain shape. And that's a very new perspective.
Kate: I was flying this week and I lift weights twice a week, and I was like, literally, I just need to lift weights so I can lift up my fucking carry-on and put it overhead because I pack. If you're like a hardcore carry-on person, your're stuffing bricks in that thing. And it's a functional thing you need to be able to do. Right? Fitness can be very functional, and that's nice to think about as letting go of the diet culture side of fitness a little bit as we get older.
Franchesca: Oh, yea, And that was a really big mindfuck for me to see pictures of my younger self and realize I was so thin and I was so stressed about I need to work out this much and I need to measure my food, and I need to do all these ridiculous things. And then I see the pictures of myself. I'm like, what was I do? I was fine. I was so thin. I look so thin. What was wrong with me? And realizing how that permeates every part of our lives. As women, we can't really get away from it. Well, especially because it's been
Doree: Women our age kind of broadly were raised in a time when, I mean, the messaging was,
Franchesca: Oh my God,
Doree: very different.
Franchesca: Remember when they were trying to convince us that Jessica Simpson was fat,
Kate: the high waisted, the high waist wide, like jeans, she wore that time
Franchesca: The high weight with a little leopard belt and a little tank top. And they were like Jessica, or even when Tyra was on the cover of that magazine, and they were like, America's Next top waddle. What? She was like a size eight
Doree: God.
Franchesca: It was a bonkers, and it was so normalized. I remember on Dawson's Creek that Michelle Williams was the fat quote, fat slutty one on that. They were always talking about how big she was. She was like a size six.
Kate: It's similar. She was so small, like Brittany Murphy and Clueless, her character was chubby. Oh my gosh. I know
Franchesca: Bridget Jones diary is all about how she needs to lose weight, and she's so small. So you're right. Yeah, we got a huge brunt of it. And that also makes me feel such an adult. I love that today's youth are just embracing their bodies. I am. I love that for you,
Kate: Do you have you beauty products or skincare products that you love right now or that are your ride or die like cult faves that you always stick with?
Franchesca: I mean, I wouldn't say it's a cult fave, but I live and die by super goops. Daily sunscreen. Yeah, because you know why? Because I think a lot of people, and especially as a black woman, a lot of people don't wear sunscreen every day. And a lot of black people are like, I don't need sunscreen. Yes, we do. We need sunscreen also. I remember it was really my makeup artist who became a really good friend of mine that told me I've always had clear skin. I've never really worn a ton of makeup. And one of the things she said to me when we first started working together, you have to start wearing sunscreen every single day. It's, it's really good for your skin, even when it's not sunny outside, even when it's cloudy, you're still ingesting those rays. And so I just really got in the habit of it, and especially because I do have darker skin. It's hard to find sunscreen that's not ashy and leaves a film. That super group goes straight on. It gives you a little shine. It's so thin and light. I just Oh, I love it so much.
Kate: That's a great endorsement. That's an empty bottle repurchase product is what I'm hearing.
Franchesca: Yeah. I wear it every single day.
Doree: Francesca, before we wrap, could you tell our listeners where they can find your various
Kate: Everything,
Doree: Your various creative output let's your every Oh my God,
Franchesca: Yes. Well, I host a podcast with my best friend Delan called Let Me Fix It. We've been saying that it's like John Oliver meets Shark Tank. Every episode we talk about something from the past.
Doree: It's very enjoyable.
Franchesca: And then we pitch how we would fix it. And then I also have a new podcast at Co-hosted by Conscious Lee. It's called Black History for Real, and it is a Storytelling Meets Conversation podcast where we are doing these full deep dives on little known black historical figures with sound design, and it's like an audio book. And then Conscious and I have conversations in the middle. It's such a cool format. I've learned so much working on it. And then I'm all over social media as Chesca Lee, C-H-E-S-C-A-L-E-I-G-H. I'm on TikTok, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook. I am technically still on. I quit Twitter, but my assistant is running my Twitter for me, just posting videos and stuff. So you won't get any hot takes from me over on Twitter, but my content is still getting posted there. And yeah, I think that's it.
Kate: Well, thank you so much. This has been so lovely to get to talk to you and just kind of a long form, hear all your thoughts. It's been really wonderful. Thank you for doing this.
Doree: Yeah.
Franchesca: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Doree: It was funny, Kate, because the day after we talked to Francesca, I was on a panel with her.
Kate: That was perfect timing.
Doree: I say it was so funny. Was perfect timing. And now that I'm thinking about it, I was already kind of sick when we did the panel,
Kate: Oh Doree. That's right. Because I saw you the day after that panel and that's when really sick. She was really hitting the fan. Oh, you poor thing. Oh,
Doree: What are you going to do? But that was my intention last week was just to deal with my sickness. I think I have maybe turned a corner. I was able to sleep last night without inhaling afrin, so that
Kate: You sound a little better.
Doree: Yeah, I feel a little better.
Kate: Good.
Doree: There's still a ton of mucus coming out of me, but it seems the rate of mucus seems to have maybe slowed a little bit.
Kate: You and I were talking before we started recording, and we both were curious, where does mucus come from? How does it get made? Is there a podcast that can tell us what is mucus?
Doree: What is mucus?
Kate: What is it?
Doree: I know.
Kate: Why is there so much of it?
Doree: There's so much.
Kate: Why does your nose, why do you blow it out and more immediately shows up
Doree: Immediately?
Kate: And you know what? I don't even want to Google what is mucus because the pictures are going to be so bad. I know. I can Google what is mucus. Okay, you know what? I did it. I lied. I did it. It's a clear liquid consisting of water salts and protective immune cells that tells me nothing.
Doree: That was not very informative.
Kate: No, God, though, I've gotten really intimate with mucus over the last four years because all I do is shove things up, people's noses to test for. Just so, I mean, how many times have I shoved a little swaby thing in my kid's nose?
Doree: Oh my God. I know. I know.
Kate: Too many times.
Doree: Too many times. Yeah. So I think this week my intention is to just kind of ease back into society. I've been barely leaving the house, and I think I need to start to reenter the world
Kate: Without pushing yourself too far,
Doree: Without pushing it. But I'm starting to just be like, okay, this is getting a little old.
Kate: Yeah, yeah. I know. Being sick is, it takes it out of you.
Doree: It does, Kate. It really does.
Kate: And bouncing back is never pleasant.
Doree: It's really not. It's not fun. No, no, it's not. Now, Kate, what about you? What do you have going on
Kate: Doree? I'm trying to think here. Okay. This week for me, I have, I'm going to tell you right now, I'm sitting at my computer where I work and there are four empty cans of bubbly water that I've been sitting here for a few days. I'm having a bit of a resistance to cleaning up my desk.
Doree: Oh, sure, sure, sure.
Kate: By a bit, I mean a lot. And I am much happier in a space that is organized. But the challenge of getting through the tidied doesn't need to be perfect. Just the tidiness. And right now it's really in the kind of chaos mess phase. The empty coffee cups, the cords, the giant shaker of salt next to me because I also eat at my desk. So I think I just, and every morning I come into work and I'm like, today's the day I'm going to take 20 minutes to clean this up. And then I'm like, no, I can't. I've got to work. So if I speak it now, whenever I speak these intentions into the ether, it really helps me commit to them. So this is it. I'm cleaning up my workspace.
Doree: Great. Okay.
Kate: I know it'll make me feel better. I must do it.
Doree: Let's speak it.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Speak on it.
Kate: It's been spoken. Alright, well, I realize we didn't tell folks up top where you can find us. Oh yeah. But just look in the show notes. If you're like, how do I find these two people? It'll be in the show notes of this podcast and we'll make sure to repeat it next week. We normally do, but we just forgot this week. But we also want to tell you that this podcast, Forever35, is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thank you all so much for being here. Have a great day.
Doree: Bye.