Episode 299: Cold Plunging with Jo Piazza
Doree is dealing with a serious sinus infection, while Kate is being influenced by her teen kid. Then, author and podcaster Jo Piazza joins them to chat about her new book The Sicilian Inheritance, the real-life murder mystery in her family that inspired the novel, the strange but exhilarating world of cold plunges, and falling down the rabbit hole of trad wives.
Mentioned in this Episode
The Sicilian Inheritance by Jo Piazza
Too Much Money with Doree Shafrir and Jo Piazza
Pre-order Kate’s book!
Connect with Jo
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Transcript
CKate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir
Kate: And Doree's sick today,
Doree: In case you couldn't tell,
Kate: We're going to talk about serums, but we're really going to talk about the massive sinus infection that my friend Doree has right after I got over a sinus infection a couple of weeks ago.
Doree: It's true.
Kate: You are getting walloped.
Doree: Yeah, walloped. I've never had really a sinus infection, I don't think. I mean, maybe I have, and I just thought it was a regular old cold, but I don't think I've ever felt quite this bad.
Kate: Yeah. Do you want to share a little bit about what's been going on? My poor friend,
Doree: so listeners know that a couple of weeks ago we went glamping with Henry and his preschool, and towards the end of glamping it seemed like Henry was getting a little sick and he was sick. He had a cold essentially, and he missed a couple days of school. And then I got sick with what seemed like exactly the same thing, but it was bad. I had one bad day, but then I was sort of okay. Then a couple more days went by and I felt like horrible. I was like, what is happening? And it was all in my nose all of a sudden. And so then yesterday Matt said to me, if I had been sick for this long, you would tell me to go to see the doctor. And I was like, yeah. And if I were you, I would say, I'm not going to the doctor. And then I said, but good thing I'm not you. So I did go to the doctor and the doctor was like, you have a sinus. Oh, also I thought I had covid because I couldn't smell anything.
Kate: Yes, you and I had dinner last week and right before
Doree: We had a work dinner
Kate: And you're like, I can't smell anything. I took a covid test. I'm negative, but I cannot smell.
Doree: And then as the evening went on, I felt worse and worse. I had to spray rine in the bathroom. I felt like a drug user. I mean, I was a drug user, and then I had to leave early because I felt I could barely breathe. It was terrible. And then anyway, then I took another Covid test. It was negative, and then at the doctor, the doctor was like, oh, that's not really happening with Covid anymore.
Kate: What is happening with Covid now? Did they give you bad information?
Doree: That was more the first couple years of Covid. Oh, great. Alpha and Delta. And I was like, well, I had Covid last July and I couldn't smell anything. And he was like, oh. I was like, where are you getting your information from? Yeah.
Kate: Also, We all still agree that Covid is so fucking wacky that it looks like a lot of different things for different people.
Doree: Totally. I was like, okay, COVID expert,
Kate: Dr. Kate and Dr. Doree know what Covid is and what it's not.
Doree: But Anyway, he prescribed me some antibiotics and I started taking them. And so far they seem to have made things worse. I mean, I will say I don't think they have made things worse. I think they haven't really kicked in yet, and my sickness is just getting worse is what is happening.
Kate: Yeah. I checked in with you today. I hope those antibiotics have kicked in, and you were like, I feel worse than I did yesterday.
Doree: I was like, Nope.
Kate: What a miserable feeling. I'm sorry. I think a lot.
Doree: Thanks, friend.
Kate: Well, it's also I think a lot about how, and this is a conversation that's happening kind of universally, at least here in the United States, about how unquote truancy is up its schools and how just also to contrast that the ways in which kids were conditioned to go to school no matter what, and perfect attendance was always highlighted. And I think in our work culture, we were only given a certain amount of sick days, and a lot of us have worked through many ailments, menstrual cycles. I have friends who have worked through miscarriages. We are conditioned socially to work while sick. And so sometimes I feel like we don't, when we have something like a really severe cold, it doesn't always get the gravity, the weight, it can really fucking kick our butts. And I don't know the name cold doesn't quite do it justice.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, I think that's why when I'm like, I'm on antibiotics, it's like
Kate: Right, you're trying to justify, validate how bad you feel.
Doree: This is more than just a cold, but you can feel pretty shitty with just a cold.
Kate: Yeah. It's like when you've been dating someone for 10 years, you're not married, but boyfriend or girlfriend doesn't feel strong enough for what you are.
Doree: Oh, interesting.
Kate: Do you see that correlation
Doree: Lead by me? I mean,
Kate: This cold is like your life partner.
Doree: This cold is my life partner. Yes.
Kate: What a bummer though. I'm sorry that you're not feeling good. I'm glad that we have a nice guest today to just help us get through.
Doree: Me too.
Kate: The shittiness of how you're feeling.
Doree: What a delight this human is to talk to.
Kate: Before we do though, I did say we were going to talk about serums, and I don't have a serum that I want to talk about, but I feel like I found a really delightful lip product And I just wanted to put out into the ether. And you know what I'm going to confess, the only reason I have even looked to this brand for lip products is because my 13-year-old daughter wanted their lip oil.
Doree: Oh boy. You're getting influenced by your teen.
Kate: I'm getting influenced by the Gen Zel Alphas because she's on the cusp of z and alpha. Oh my God. She really wanted to get the summer Fridays dream lip oil, and I happened to make Easter magic in my house, so I purchased some for her little Easter Basket, And then while I was there, I tu diluted on over to their lip butter bal for hydration and shine. It had a massive amount of stars on the Sephora app, and I was just like, this is interesting. I want this. I'm going to just add to cart because I'm already buying for my kid. I'm going to just get something to myself.
Doree: Just add to cart, baby.
Kate: I tapped that button so fast, but you know what I, here's did. I grabbed it in kind of a color that I like but wouldn't normally wear. It's like a bright orange. It's called Poppy, and it's their lip butter and poppy, and it's really sheer, you don't get a massive amount of color, but it's really nice and this is a very nice stays on for a long time. Leaves your lips feeling hydrated. Lip balm.
Doree: Ooh, okay.
Kate: Yeah. And so many, they have a lot of colors that are currently very sold out on the Sephora site. I imagine this is a popular product and I am obviously very cool and with it you are for getting it
Doree: You are so cooling with it,
Kate: But I really like this color poppy is really pretty.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: Okay. Hot tip.
Kate: It made me feel just kind of, it's more than Vaseline, but less than even. It's a less than a sheer gloss. I don't know. It's very, it's just like one of those real barely there. Theirs
Doree: A barely there there.
Kate: It's a barely there there, which is exactly what I want right now from my makeup products. I want barely there. There.
Doree: Totally. Wow.
Kate: Okay. I also, after talking to our guest today, have gone on a real Italian heritage hyper fixation, so I'm excited to get to this conversation.
Doree: Oh, Okay.
Kate: Should we introduce our guest?
Doree: Let's do that, Kate.
Kate: We are talking today to the other woman in my life. That would be Doree's other podcast host, Jo Piazza.
Doree: Jo Piazza,
Kate: The wonderful, hilarious, brilliant Jo Piazza. Jo is the national and international bestselling author of the Sicilian Inheritance, which is out now as well as the books. We are not like them. You are always mine. Charlotte Walsh likes to win the knockoff and How to Be Married. Her written work has been published in 10 languages in 12 countries. Her books have been optioned for film and television. Her podcasts have garnered more than 25 million downloads. Her work has appeared just literally all over,
Doree: All over.
Kate: She lives in Philly with her husband Nick and their three children, and she's also the co-host along with Doree Shafrir of the podcast. Too Much Money.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: And Jo joined us to really talk about everything. She's one of those people who
Doree: She just puts it all out there.
Kate: She does,
Doree: But not in a weird way.
Kate: No, in a very accessible, open, vulnerable, funny way.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: And when we talk about everything, everything, aging, injectables, cold plunging,
Doree: We just go there
Kate: Before we switch gears and head into our convo with Jo, a friendly reminder that our website is Forever35podcast.com. Our Instagram is @Forever35podcast. You can find us on Patreon at patreon.com/forever35 products that we love can be found at Shopmy.us/forever35. If you want to chime in, we love to hear from you. You can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message very easily at(781) 591-0390, and our email address is Forever35podcast@gmail.com. And now without further ado, here is my fellow Italian American, Jo Piazza. Welcome to the Jo Piazza Show. Very excited about this conversation, Jo, especially I have to tell you, I have a good friend here in Los Angeles who a few months ago was like, have I ever told you the story about how my great great grandmother was killed in Italy? And we think it's by the mafia? And I was like, my what? I have a friend who had that happen and also wrote a book about it. So I was just talking to her again about it. So yeah, so there's fascinated to hear more about your story. And I also think it's really interesting. It might not be the only one.
Jo: If I'm not the only, you might, I need to talk to this friend immediately. I will have them.
Kate: I will connect. She was like, am I related to this person? And I don't think so, but I suspect that you have a similar experience. So I will connect and
Jo: You never know if we're related because we're Italian Americans. We breed like rabbits is there are many of us.
Kate: I am one. I'm one of you. I'm one of you. I'm a quarter Italian American, but it's overpowering at times.
Jo: I don't know how many cousins I have. Okay. My God. But yes, because every time I bring this book, the Sicilian inheritance up to someone who is even a little bit Italian American, they're like, let me tell you about the murder in my own family. And I'm like, is this a rite of passage we all have? Do we all turn 12? And our family's like, let us tell you about our deep dark mafia murder in our history.
Doree: They sit you down,
Jo: They sit you down, and they tell you about puberty and shaving your legs. And also about the mafia murder that happened a hundred years ago.
Kate: I don't have one in my family. I only have a great grandfather who kept rabbits and then would break their neck and cook them for dinner. So that's my Italian murder vibes. Yeah, he loved eating lot.
Jo: Also creepy.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Well, welcome to the pod. Welcome back.
Doree: Yeah, welcome back. I was going to say you've been on the show before, but with Christine?
Jo: With Christine. With Christine. It's nice
Doree: To co-author
Jo: Be solo.
Doree: Yeah, it's nice to be solo. You have a book that when this airs, it will have come out yesterday.
Jo: Oh my gosh. Yeah. That feels crazy because I've been thinking about this book for essentially my whole life.
Doree: As you know, we always ask people about their self-care practice. But before we get to that, do you want to just briefly give our listeners a rundown of the Sicilian inheritance, your new book?
Jo: Yes. And then actually all I want to talk about is my self-care practice because no one has asked me that. And that is really what I want to dive into with you ladies. Yeah. So the Sicilian inheritance, really, I've been thinking about this book forever, but I started writing it during the pandemic and right after I had my first daughter, I wanted to write a book that was just delicious in all of the ways I wanted to write about delicious travel and delicious food and really good looking people maybe or maybe not having sex in a beach cave. And so sure. And so I started writing that and it's loosely based on a real life murder in my family, my great great grandmother a hundred years ago, which has been this mystery passed down in a game of telephone through my family who, if it's real, who knows if it's true because again, my family are full of mythmakers and storytellers and liars, but I had this nugget that she did not make it to America to join her husband and her sons here, that she was murdered possibly by the mafia for her land or because she was a witch and she may have cast a spell on the wrong person. These are all possibilities. And I just took that and I went with it and I just created this murder mystery adventure set in Sicily with a modern day woman, a modern day chef and butcher. I also wanted a modern woman who just loves the hell out of food, who goes back and tries to solve this mystery and claim her family's land. And it became this book that I write by the seat of my pants. I do not outline. I just write and write. And it became a book that felt like it wanted to be written. I did not know the end of the Sicilian inheritance when I started writing it. And then all of a sudden I was like, well, that's a banger, huh? Didn't see that one coming. No. And yeah, it's, I'm hoping people pick it up when they're in a reading slump and they're like, yep, this is what I wanted to read. Feel good now. Feel good about books again for the first time in a while.
Doree: Well, I think you have succeeded. We'll talk about your book a little bit more, but let's talk about your self-care practice, especially when it comes to a period in your life that is extremely busy and stressful. What is your sort of respite from that?
Jo: I will say in these crazy couple of weeks where I have this book coming out soon and I have all these other projects, Doree knows this very well. One of them is with her. I sometimes forget that I have a body, I forget that I'm a body that needs to be taken care of and needs to be fed and watered and all of the things. And there, there's one thing watered, I feel so cheesy talking about it because it's very huberman lab duty of like, oh, this is what I do to make myself feel present. Oh my god, man. But I've been doing cold plunges and ice baths and it really does remind me that I have a body, I get in and you feel all of the things in the freaking tub, and my gym has one, so I'll do one there. I'm in the Catskills right now, and I literally jumped in the freaking creek that is just a bunch of snow melt. And I'm like, okay, all right. And it kind of wakes you up from all the other shit that's going on around you and you're like, alright, I'm back in it. I'm back in it. Yes, I need to feed myself. Yes, I need to water myself and take care of myself. I'm also a person who prioritizes sleep over the rest of everything else in my life.
Kate: I wish I did this.
Jo: I really do. It's made the biggest difference for me in terms of my anxiety and just, I mean everything about me, my productivity, I prioritize sleep over reading books, over watching TV, over having sex with my husband, over talking to my husband. I'm a nine hour a night person. I'm a nine hour a nighter, and if I don't get it, I feel like crap and I will do anything that I can to get it. We had a third baby about a year ago, and I just said to my husband, Nick, I'm like, you're the one that gets up at night. It's not me. I will not be a good person during the day. And you are one of those freaks that can just fall asleep whenever you want to. I hate him for that. So he gets up with her and I get my nine hours a day and it's my biggest form of self-care. It really is that. And this new,
Kate: what time do you go to bed?
Jo: I go to bed right after I put my last child to bed at eight 30. My 6-year-old, sometimes it's nine. He really wants to talk about things. Why did people smoke cigarettes in the nineties? Because he saw a movie and I'm like,
Kate: I love these questions.
Doree: Ancient history.
Kate: You're always tucking them in and they're like, can you explain why?
Jo: I'm like, it is weird. I'm like, I grew up in a two pack household. And I'm like, yeah. I mean, looking back, it was strange to just live in a household filled with smoke all of the time, but let me explain the marketing cycle of addiction and capitalism. And so I get in bed after that and if I'm feeling okay, I will read for about 20 minutes to a half an hour and I just put myself to sleep. I'm like, it's time. It's time for you to go to bed.
Kate: Wow,
Jo: I know.
Doree: I love this. And then you wake up at what, six, seven? What is math?
Jo: It's usually like what is math or time guys? What is math or time I wake up? It could be anywhere between six and seven o'clock because I don't have an alarm clock. I wake up when I hear a child yell. Really? So that's it.
Kate: Yeah. Can I circle back to the cold plunging for a bit? Do you do it at a consistent time every day? So I will confess, so we have a pool in our backyard here in California, and we don't heat it most of the time, so it's very cold. And I often look at it and I'm like, I should just jump in that real quick and then come out, jump out.
Jo: Yeah, you should.
Kate: I have a cold punch sitting here literally in my yard, but the motivation to do it feels like I need a lot of it. So when do you cold plunge? How long are you in there?
Jo: Yeah.
Kate: Do you have a consistent practice? Do you do it once a week?
Jo: I do it about
Kate: what is the journey?
Jo: It's about three times a week and I do it midday. So my thing is I get up and I do most of my writing first thing in the day. So if that's a guy, I have to write a script for a podcast, I'll write that. If I'm working on a novel, I'll write that. And then when I'm starting to feel kind of hazy and the coffee's worn off, then I'll do a cold plunge. And it's also kind of like a sunlight plunge too, because I have to walk to the gym to do it. So it's like the first time that I've left the house and I have to take off my pajamas. And that's a good thing to do for yourself, which I do also forget because I forget that I'm a human who has a body. And so usually it's like a nooner, a nooner cold plunge, and it gets, I also try not to have coffee anymore after 11 o'clock because I prioritize the sleep so much. So that's when I start to get fatigued a little bit, and then I jump in. I mean, look, I feel fucking awesome when I get out of the pool. And so as much, and I think part of it is because you don't want to do it. And so it's like you do this thing you don't want to do, and after you do it, you feel like you can do other things you don't want to do. Finish that chapter of a book or call your insurance company and fight for them to pay for your mammogram.
Kate: Okay, alright. I'm seeing an upside here.
Jo: There's an upside there. But you're not going to want to do it. You're not going to want to.
Kate: No, No, I don't.
Jo: And I yell like a banshee when I jump in the pool and it's embarrassing. There's other humans there. It's not my pool. And also when I do it in the creek up here in the skells, the creek is literally right behind me. People hear me and think that I'm being murdered in the woods. I've had an old man run over and be like, are you okay? Oh my God. I'm like, yeah, sir, I'm fine. I'm just a middle-aged woman in a speedo jumping in an icy creek. And
Kate: Don't mind me
Jo: Dont mind me, but it does make me feel a lot better. And then my last self-care thing is, I feel so woo woo with this one too. I do the intermittent fasting. I don't usually eat anything until 11 o'clock. I only drink black coffee until 11, and I think it regulates my energy in a way that nothing else was. I tried quitting sugar, I tried doing all the things, and this isn't about diet. I could care less what I weigh at this point. I just want to have energy, and I really love the intermittent fasting, but both of these things make me sound like a hoberman lab, bro.
Kate: We can just call this the Berman Lab.
Jo: This is the Berman lab. Oh. Oh my God. Guys starting a faux hoberman podcast, especially in light of the recent New York magazine article called the Buman Lab where it's just us debunking pseudoscience.
Doree: Yes,
Jo: All guys. Should I start it right now? I'll make a feed. I'll make a feed.
Doree: Yes, please.
Kate: I mean, the thing is I walk the line personally between debunking it and then also doing it sometimes.
Jo: Yeah, same
Kate: I think the placebo effect of so many of these things is not the worst.
Jo: No, no.
Kate: So it's like, well, why not? Why not? But sleep, for example, there's plenty of science that shows that consistent bedtime and a good amount of sleep is vital to one's health.
Jo: I know. I just love it so much and I get mad at myself when I disrupt my sleep. I know that booze disrupts my sleep. If I have any wine or a tequila, I know I'm going to sleep badly. And I did for the past last weekend because we were hanging out with friends and I was just pissed the next day, like, God dammit, not because of a hangover or anything. I'm like, you did not get good sleep and that is your fault.
Kate: The booze stuff is I enjoy a cocktail and then I feel like such shit, not even the next day, but throughout the night, the impact is so extreme now.
Jo: It's so intense on me. I am a person that likes drinking. I like a cocktail. I like a glass of wine. I like a hearty IPA and maybe even 15 minutes after that first drink, I start to feel bad. And then I'm definitely really groggy. I wake up in the middle of the night and I feel terrible the next day. It is so far, thus far the worst part of aging for me.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: Kate, I think you should ask your fun first question.
Kate: Hold on. Let me scroll over to the document. I don't even have the document open. That's how casually chatting I am about this episode. I'm so excited just to sit and gab that I didn't even open our document. Okay. Sorry. Let me be a professional podcaster Jo and open up our Jo Piazza dossier. Okay, here's my fun first question. Oh my God, I forgot about this. Okay, Jo, forgive me, but we're recording this episode as the Supreme Court is currently debating Miry Stone, which is a pill that is an abortion pill. It's used for a variety of reasons and been around forever and is very safe. And I find it very interesting that we have, and I'm not the first person, I'm not a scholar. Many people have talked about this, but you talk a lot about trad wives and I find the parallel of the rise of trad wives and the demise of abortion access and the ending of Roe really fascinating.
Jo: Yes.
Kate: I'm curious if you have thoughts on this hashtag I did write, what a fun first question, Kate, because it's really bringing down the mood here. I'm curious
Jo: what a joyous first question, but yeah,
Kate: What a great time. Right? What a great time we're living in.
Jo: I'm so happy to answer it because I'm a huge fan of women having access to all of the things and all of the choices. And I talk about this a lot. I had an abortion when I was 16. It changed my life. Really good decision for me. I can't imagine my life any other way, and I can talk about it literally all day long. I do think that there is a rise in conservative propaganda on social media along with the decision to ban these kind of options for women. We know that certain conservative forces, and I'm not going to say the Republican party because it's not just like, oh, all Republicans believe this. There are conservative forces that are funding boosting certain accounts that promote things like women staying in the home, women not having agency over their own lives, women having as many children as possible and making those lives look so perfect and beautiful and gorgeous and aspirational. These accounts get boosted. I've heard about certain lobbying groups doing this to the tune of millions and millions if not a hundred million dollars. And that's why I think these images are so dangerous because it strips away the labor of motherhood. It doesn't show the work of motherhood. It makes it seem like it is something that is so easy and that we should all just take for granted because it is such a wonderful, easy thing. And why wouldn't you want to have this many children? I mean, it's also the opposite of valuing stay at home mothers who I think are the CEOs of their households who are doing such real work. The trad wives are taking away all of the work that those women are doing. So I do think there's a direct correlation between the fight to end access to abortions and access to choice, and this rise in trad wife content in a very, very dangerous way.
Kate: Thank you for answering that question. I'm very alarmed by it, and it really is freaking me out a bit, so I appreciate you eloquently digging into it.
Jo: Yeah, I think about it a lot. I also want to say I spend a lot of time with women in their twenties who consume a lot of their news on TikTok and social media, and there's a lot of misinformation out there about birth control right now, about birth control and about,
Kate: I read the whole article on this.
Jo: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the morning after Pill in particular, which, yeah, the morning after Pill probably saved my life in a bunch of instances. And so I think all of these things are related and they should all be talked about together very often. Great. First question. Great first question.
Kate: Thank you, Jo. Amazing question for me,
Doree: Jo. You've written a lot about the influencer ballerina farm, and I feel like you are someone who really has their finger on the pulse of the mom influencer world, who are the up and coming mom influencers that you have your eye on?
Kate: Interesting Question.
Jo: Oh, such an interesting question. Yeah. I do talk about Ballerina farm a lot, and Ballerina Farm has more than 8 million followers. So I think it's important to talk about it, and I like to say it as a brand, as a media brand. This has really nothing anymore to do with the woman who is in the pictures in the account. It is really about this brand that influences more than 8 million people a day. I think it might be 9 million people now. And so that's a lot of power. That's like Nike, Pepsi level power. So we should be talking about it. I'm seeing an interesting rise in the satire accounts. So in the people like Lex, Stella, Rosa, who is definitely tra wife adjacent, I interviewed Lex, and she is in a very, what she calls a traditional marriage. She believes her husband should be making all the money outside the home and that she should be submissive to him in gender roles. But she also kind of takes the piss out of the trad wifes in that she'll say things like, I'm throwing a party for my 24 month old where I'm mowing the grass with these shearing scissors. And it's funny, and it's funny, the thing about the Triad Wife movement now too is that the algorithm both on both TikTok and Instagram, really seems to favor it. And I think because people liked it for so long and because it has been boosted in a lot of different ways, and people realize that. So there's a lot of people performing Trad Wife life just to get followers and to make money. And I think that's why we should always look at these accounts with a certain level of skepticism, be like, who were you before this? Because before this, I think you were the drunk wine mom, but that's not getting attention anymore. And now you're just wearing flowery dresses and raising chickens just so you can get my attention.
Doree: Right. Really gives me the he jeebies.
Jo: All of it, gives me the heebie-jeebies. And look, the trad wives have not influenced me to have multiple children. If anything, it made me want to have Nick Astor get a vasectomy more and more and more, which he did. He did. We had him fixed. But they do influence me to do something that is very nefarious to me, and it's very nefarious to my bank account, which is by doen dresses.
Kate: Oh boy. Yeah. And there's a moment where you're like, why the fuck are we? What is this? What are we doing in these Prairie games?
Jo: Yes. Why?
Kate: How did we get, it's like you wake up. How did we get here from being hypnotized? How did we get here? They're beautiful. It's a beautiful, they're beautiful dresses.
Jo: They're beautiful dresses
Kate: As are the target knockoffs that I buy. Same. Same, yes. But what is happening here under the surface a little bit, right? Yeah.
Jo: Why did we think this was okay? Or the nap dresses, really? The nap dresses, which I call, I mean, they're like coma dresses, right? I walk out and my husband sees this, and he's like, did you just go to sleep for a hundred years? Rip Van Winkle, what happened to you? But This is what social media will do to us. It makes us think that this is what everyone is doing, so we should do it too. Okay, great. I will put on this plaid smock.
Kate: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. On the flip side, there is another part of me that likes the rejection of other kind of institutionalized fashion rules that a lot of these clothes, I think kind of more specifically the designer bot Shiva, but a lot of these clothes have kind of pushed against. There's an interesting side to that too. I think a lot of them, or at least maybe when I started peaking my interest in the world of flowy smock dresses, it felt like a rejection of something. But now it has almost shifted into a different part of a subculture, I guess.
Jo: Totally.
Kate: If I'm thinking critically about it.
Jo: Yeah. Well, no, we've gone full circle. It felt like a rejection of tight lululemon. Look at my butt pants. And now it's gone the other way. And it's like, now I just want to wear clothes again. I just want to wear actual clothes. And also some of these, I love the target knockoffs, but some of these brands are so expensive, and I love a well-made dress, and I think that we should pay for good clothing, but I also think they've taken it to a gonzo bananas level.
Doree: Interesting.
Kate: A lot happening here.
Jo: So much happening here, guys. I can just go in all of the directions. I'm just happy to be here.
Kate: Well, on the same topic, I have been interested in the discussion about the TikTok trend of people asking their followers how old they think they are, and this weird debate about who looks older millennials or Gen Z and all this stuff, this kind of obsession with looking old, not looking your age or guess how old I am. And then shocking people when you're older than they think and how we're never just, we were talking about this with another guest the other day, but how we haven't been, people are being even less forthcoming with their age, or it's being used as a hook in a way. And there's a lot, I don't know. There's a discussion to be had about aging, and I think Doree and I have it a lot. And Jo, I know you are our age, so you participate as well. But that's another thing that I see online happening that I'm kind of like, oh, fuck. What is this? What this, have you been following that trend at all? Do you have thoughts about what it kind of says about our culture at large?
Jo: Yeah. No, I really do. I really do. And I've been following it. And when I first saw it, I thought it was so absurd to be happening on TikTok, which is something that literally you put a filter over your face and you can look any goddamn age you want to look, right? So it's just like you're asking what age I am, and you could look 12 on a TikTok filter. You really could. But I have so many mixed feelings about this, and I think that you can feel two things at once that are complete opposites. I'm a woman who gets Botox, and I just got, however you say it for the first time in my forehead so that I can go on this book tour and not look like the crypt keeper. And then at the same time, I'm also, I want to see real women's faces. I want to see more real women in movies and on social media. And what if all women between the ages of 25 and 55 didn't look the same, which we do, and we can now, it's like Hollywood actually has no women outside of that range of 25 to 55. They could be any age. Everyone looks exactly the same between those two ages after 55. You can see kind of a difference, but not really. I don't know. I have so many mixed feelings about it, because for me, I love aging. I'm very happy in my forties. I feel very content with my life and who I am. I wouldn't want to be 20 again for anything, go back to my twenties and dating and all of that, even though I was so hot in my twenties, and I did not know it. Doree knew me in my twenties. I was so hot. Right? Doree, I looked so good, and I had no idea.
Doree: She was. You had a very cool job.
Jo: Yeah. Yeah.
Doree: You were a woman. You were a gal about town.
Kate: You were a gal about town,
Jo: A gal about town. But I wouldn't want to do that for anything. I love being in my forties and just all the knowledge that comes with age. And so there is a part of me that hates the idea of not showing my age on my face, but then I also don't want to be a woman that goes into the world and shows my age where no other women are showing their age. So it's kind of like, if we all opted out, then maybe we could do this. But at this point, I'm sucked into the system. And I think by having people guess your age in this calling out, I think this is a really long way of me saying, I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with what's happening about how we show age and talk about age. And this is a manifestation of that. It's like, I want to say my age, but I want to do it in a gimmicky way, or I want you to be surprised. I want you to feel this when you learn this. And yeah, it's one of the weirder social media trends of the past couple years.
Kate: Yeah, I'm struggling with how I feel about it and the opting in and out of certain things. And I think you make a really good point of when you opt out, yay. But then what if you're the only one? And then it just feels like it's a mind fuck. And I also think it's not one that I fully comprehended until I hit my forties. It's very easy to have opinions on shit like this when you're 30, but let me tell you, when your periods start skipping and your face starts kind of melting, it's like, what the fuck?
Jo: What the Fuck?
Kate: Yeah,
Jo: What the fuck? It's disorient. It's disorienting. I knew about wrinkles. Okay. I am like, you get wrinkles when you get older. I didn't know about jowls. I didn't know that my chin was going to melt in this way. And also that there's nothing to do about it besides a really expensive facelift.
Kate: Yeah.
Jo: Yeah.
Kate: That's just a part of its, but I'll say though, what's interesting to me is these are things that I would nitpick on myself for sure and do not see on others. And that is when I kind of feel myself getting sucked into extreme negative self-talk about my appearance. I kind of remember, and I think there's this conversation happened of I think people reflecting on their mothers and their thinking about how their mothers looked as they aged and what they noticed and what they found beautiful. And I think about this a lot because the stuff that I am staring at myself and really tearing down, not all the time, but when you're in that moment, it's not to me, anything I would ever look at anybody else and say, I see that lifeline. Honestly, those jowls on you, I wouldn't even know. I wouldn't even know. And so that's kind of also been buzzing around my brain as I think about these things a lot.
Jo: Yeah, no, it is true. I look at my girlfriends who are the same age as I am, and also it's like, I think everyone is my age too. I'm like, yeah, we're the same age. And people are like, yeah, I'm 50. I'm like, yeah, that's the same as 43. We're the same. But I look at my girlfriends and I'm like, you are so fucking pretty. I have friends that do stuff to their face and friends that don't do stuff to your face. And I'm just like, you all look so gorgeous. I don't nitpick my friend's faces. I think they look beautiful, and it's a reminder to be kinder to ourselves. I know that we never will be or I won't be because this is just how I am in the world. But yeah, I've never once looked at my friends and been like, oh God, she should do something about those elevens on her forehead. Never once. Never ever once.
Doree: You're kind of indirectly hitting at another question that I wanted to ask you, because you said you had gotten the Dysport as you're about to go out on book tour, and all three of us are authors. We've all written books. We're all, I think probably writing books, I don't know. But I want to talk about the pressures on authors to be self-promoters, because you've done a lot of promotion on your own for your book, and it's a lot of work. It's a lot of time. And I was wondering if you could speak to that a little bit.
Jo: And I think it's interesting for readers to hear it sometimes. Then sometimes they're like, I just want to read a damn book. I don't care what you go through, but I spend a lot of time talking to readers. It's the best part of my job. The best parts are writing a book, which I love, and then connecting with readers. Those two things are awesome. And if I could do those two things all day long, I hate selling books and promoting books and being a show pony, and I never want to say the word pre-order again because it just sounds stupid, and you don't do it for any other product in the world, but where authors are forced to because your publisher looks at those numbers. And if they're not good, they're not going to give you any marketing or sales support three days after your book comes out. And if we think about the way that we discover books, I don't discover books until they're six months out, and I live in this world. Books need time to marinate and resonate with readers, but the publishing world is not set up like that. So we are forced to be dancing show ponies and do all of these tiktoks and Instagrams and pre-order campaigns, what I call the pre-Order Olympics. And it's exhausting. And it's why I am not taking care of myself. It's why I'm jumping in a freezing stream right now. And I would love to find a way to help readers find awesome books like your books, and obviously my book, the Sicilian Inheritance, that doesn't take so much work and energy from the authors, because I think we're also overly dependent on celebrity book clubs right now, where that becomes the plan. It's like, well, this feels like a celebrity book club pick, but if it's not chosen, it kind of gets abandoned. And that's only talking about three books a month. That might not be for you. And I say this as a person who has been a celebrity book club pic. I've seen both sides of this. And TikTok also can't be your marketing plan. I'm very bad at TikTok. I have tried I the things that you're supposed to do, and I do not like those things, and I don't like doing them. I am pretty good at Instagram. I'm good at the substack. But yeah, I think it is exhausting, and I want to spend as much time talking to readers as possible and less time trying to help 'em find books. I feel like that should be the job of the publishers.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, yes, yes. I'm in this right now. I have a book coming out in two months, and it's challenging.
Jo: It's challenging.
Kate: It's just a strange, yeah, it's a super strange experience. And also as someone who hates to bother people, it's just like, oh God, here it goes again.
Jo: Oh my God. I know. I feel like such a nudge. I feel like the worst annoying nudge to everyone in my life. So I feel that way to my readers, first of all, because you follow me on Instagram because you like my writing, not necessarily. You want to see me be like, pre-order my book and I'll do this dance for you. And then I feel that way to my friends, both of you who I'm like, Hey, could you hold my book up on Instagram and bother your followers to buy it? And also, I mean, literally, my husband actually got laid off last week. This is the world. Well see, Doree, I didn't talk to you in our normal talking time, so I didn't get to tell you this. So he got laid off because this is capitalism and corporate America now. You just never know what's coming. And he did have, I've trained him so much and bothered him so much that he had the best sign off email of all time to his coworkers. He was like, all right, yeah, really great. Four years with you all. And I work for my wife now. So could everyone pre-order her book and then Yeah, that'd be really great. Or maybe five. Maybe five s.
Doree: Okay. This is making the pitch to have him record an episode of too much money. Make more sense now.
Jo: Yeah, no, because I thought that I had written that sometimes I tell you things in my head and I don't put them on paper. I was like, Doree, Nick's got time on his hands. Nick free.
Doree: Yeah. I was just like, oh, okay.
Jo: Yeah, no, I'm like Nick's.
Doree: Jo and I, we've definitely talked about this, but Jo and I do a podcast called Too Much Money about just kind of the wacky things that billionaires spend their money on. It's been a real trip. But Jo is in a very busy period as just discussed, and she texted me the other night and asked if her husband could fill in for her on an episode. I won't reveal what he's going to talk about.
Jo: Oh my God. Oh my God,
Kate: I can't wait.
Jo: My God. God, it's so good. And it's so messed up.
Doree: But now this is making more sense why he has the time to research and record this episode.
Jo: He's really excited about it. Okay. He's really putting his all
Doree: I'm excited too.
Kate: Wait, we touched on something that I wanted to circle back to. Oh, now I can't remember what it was. Husband laid off promotion, TikTok. I don't know. I dunno. But it's all hard. That being said, I'm very excited for your book.
Jo: Yeah, yeah, me too.
Kate: I cannot wait. I am organically and naturally and not due to any sort of exterior influence. Excited for your book.
Jo: Yeah.
Kate: I cannot wait.
Jo: Yeah. I'm excited for it to be in the world. Like I said, it's fun. It's an adventure. It's like taking a trip to Sicily, and I am excited to get it into reader's hands and see what actual readers who aren't just my friends and my family, and select books to grammars. Think about it. That'll be really, really fun. And it's also why I want as many people to see it as possible so that they know it's available. It's hard to find stuff you like, and we know this with making podcasts and there's just so much content out there, and we're kind of scrolling that it feels really special when you find something that you enjoy. And so I want readers to be able to find it, and then we can have, then all of us should go and record a podcast together in Sicily.
Kate: Oh, don't even joke about it. That's my freaking dream.
Doree: Yes.
Jo: I'm not joking about it.
Doree: You are leading or have led writing retreats in Sicily, right?
Jo: No, I'm leading one. I am. So I'm planning.
Doree: You're leading one?
Jo: I'm leading one, yeah. Yeah. I'm planning, it's a storytelling retreat, so it's not just writing books, it's also podcasting. And so my podcast producer Kate from Kaleidoscope who's making the Sicilian Inheritance Companion Podcast will be leading podcasting sessions. And then we'll have really great authors doing author sessions. And one of my goals is like, look, I want this book to blow up, but also I want this trip to be free or very cheap for a lot of people. So it's like, let's make the book really popular so that all Italia or whatever they call it now sponsors it and this hotel wants to sponsor it. And we can make it affordable for all of us to go to Sicily and tell stories together.
Kate: I love this.
Doree: Let's manifest this for you.
Kate: Oh, lemme know what's happening.
Jo: Let's manifest that. Yeah,
Kate: I want to go.
Jo: Yeah, that's the goal. That's the goal here.
Kate: What have you kind of learned, I know you just went back to Italy and you were actually researching your real family history. What have you kind of gained from that side of this experience?
Jo: It's been pretty awesome because I'm such a thorough and freakish content creator. After I wrote the novel, I was like, you had better just solve this real life murder for a true crime podcast. And so I did. I'm no crush, just go solve it. And I took my whole family with three children under six to Sicily last summer, and I just got back from Sicily to solve my real life grandmother's murder. It's like white lotus meets only murders in the building, guys. I think it drops in an hour. I don't even know anymore. Like I said, what is time? And I learned so much. Actually, one of the things I've been thinking about a lot is how the stories that we tell about our families and the stories we pass down about our families shape, our identities and how they shape so many people's identities. Because like I said, every time I mentioned the book or the podcast, someone's like, let me tell you my story. It means so much how we define ourselves in the world. And I've also really tried to embrace this Sicilian sense of slower living. So I had to go into a lot of archives. I went into the mafia records and the homicide records and the city hall and the Sicilian version of the DMV. And they're so intense about having appointments and also only being open for a couple of hours so they can all go home for lunch. And it's an intense system of time management that you're not used to as an American who's like, go, go, go. I want this when I want this and blah, blah, blah. And they're like, no, I'm leaving at 1130. I have to have a four hour lunch now with my mama. Bye. And just kind of embracing that slowness and sense of rest amidst all the craziness that we have to do as authors was really nice. I did not plan on going back, but that was when I got access two weeks ago to get into the court records and I had to fly at the last minute. And it was just a nice reminder because also here in America, we let our work define us. And it's like the first question we ask anyone, we're like, what do you do? What do you do for money? What do you do as a job? And there people are genuinely like, what'd you eat for lunch? And I'm like, isn't that question more important? How did I nourish myself today? How did I feed myself instead of what work do you do for someone else?
Doree: I mean, that gets into a whole conversation about the social safety net that we don't have time for.
Kate: We don't have.
Doree: But yes, I feel that deeply, Jo. We unfortunately have to wrap sadly. But where can our listeners find you besides recording too much money with me?
Jo: I mean, I spend most of my time recording too much money with you these days. But speaking of the social safety net, Doree and I, we will be doing a whole series of episodes on what billionaires could be doing to bolster the social safety net. And what, oh,
Kate: I cannot wait. This is something that makes me personally bonkers.
Jo: personally bonkers, personally bonkers. No one needs to go to space, my friends, no one needs to go explore the Titanic. Those people are dead. They're not coming back. Yeah, I crap all over Instagram all the time. I'm like, social media is bad. Then I'm like, you can find me on Instagram @JoPiazzaauthor. That's where I put all the things and also my substack over the influence, which I give away for free to people when they buy the Sicilian inheritance and send me a receipt because books are expensive. And I want people to know that I appreciate them as readers.
Doree: I love that. Well, Jo, thank you for coming on Forever35, everyone by her book. And if she's coming to a city near you, go see her in person.
Jo: You should. I'm a lot of fun. I'm a lot of fun. And sadly, I'm not coming to your city.
Doree: I know, I know.
Jo: I know. I'm the worst. But this means I just have to plan a trip just with us where we just do a live too much money.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: And record the Berman Lab. Our new podcast
Doree: record, the Berman Lab.
Jo: So the Berman lab, I checked really quickly. It's not available to buy, but I think Berman Lab pod might be available. So I'm going to work on this for us.
Kate: Alright, thank you. Great. Yeah, just add that to the list of things you have going on right now and get on it.
Doree: That should definitely be the number one priority.
Kate: I'm going to jump in the creek.
Jo: I'm going to jump in the creek and then I'll make the Erman lab.
Doree: That sounds great.
Kate: Thank you, Jo.
Doree: Thank you Jo.
Kate: And congrats on the book.
Jo: Thank you.
Kate: Well Doree as mentioned, after we hopped off with Jo, I immediately got reinvigorated about trying to get my dual citizenship, trying to visit my great grandparents village. I immediately did the thing I often do where I was back to hyper fixation mode.
Doree: Did you reach out to the person that she's been using?
Kate: I did. I haven't heard back from them, but I reached out to a couple places about help just navigating that process, but then also help kind of, if I wanted to visit the place where my family's from, figuring out how to do that in the most respectful, noninvasive, non-American barging into your town kind of way. Allah.
Doree: Ohmy god.
Kate: White Lotus. If you watch the most recent, we watched the most recent season of White Lotus, and my husband was like, this is what it will be like for you. And I was like, yes, I know. I'll say my father and grandfather have gone back and visited where my great grandparents are from and met relatives there, but I would really like to do that. So
Doree: Should I get my husband to do this? He won't do it.
Kate: Is he Sicilian?
Doree: Maybe.
Kate: I mean, honestly, he's
Doree: Half Italian and then half
Kate: He's Portuguese.
Doree: Portuguese, Cuban, Spanish. I think his Spanish ancestors went to Cuba.
Kate: Cool.
Doree: And that's on his dad's side and maybe Puerto Rico. And then his mom's side I think is mostly Italian, although maybe also Portuguese. I'm not sure. It's all that sort of Southern Europe Vibe.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, my family is from southern Italy and it's somewhat easy to kind of trace because they came to America not that long ago. So we have a lot of the documentation and even though a lot of stuff got changed, everybody spells the last name 50 different ways. But I mean, yeah, maybe Matt and I could go on a buddy trip together, especially if he's from around Naples.
Doree: You and Matt should definitely go on a buddy trip together.
Kate: Yeah, that two people that night, two people who are way too similar.
Doree: Oh my God.
Kate: Neither of us would want to do anything to offend the other person. Neither of us would plan anything. We would desperately need you to lead us around. And Anthony,
Doree: It's so funny, I'd be like, bye
Kate: Matt and I are just each in our corners hyper fixating on our own things.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: But yeah, I don't know. It is kind of meaningful for me and it was nice to remember. That is something that I've thought a lot about and I really do want to kind of tap back into. So I really love getting to talk to Jo. I'm so excited to read this book. I cannot wait.
Doree: Very cool. Well, Kate, what's going on for you in 10 sheets wise?
Kate: Well, last week I talked about how I want to really be my own hype person. I am in the process of promoting my next novel called One Last Summer out June 11th.
Doree: Yes, Good
Kate: Pre-Order it now wherever books are sold. And I'll be doing an event in Los Angeles. Stay tuned for more details on that. I would love to see you and meet you and sign your book and you can pre-order it at the link that's in the show notes. So that's what I'm trying to do. Just be confident in promoting my work. Doree. Yeah,
Doree: Kate, by the way, let me know as soon as you know about your LA event so I can save the date on my cal.
Kate: I will email you. It is not announced, but I know the date, so I'll email you right now.
Doree: You best do that
Kate: This week. I am. Something I have been thinking about, and I don't know if I have mentioned this here, is how I kind of am fascinated by the idea of an early morning routine.
Doree: Yes, yes, yes.
Kate: It dawned on me at some point that all the people who, a lot of people, not all, a lot of people who put out that early morning routine content, a lot of them might not have ad HD like me. So I was like, oh, Kate, maybe this doesn't work for you because this isn't necessarily what you need, but maybe something else that you come up with would be really nice because actually really
Doree: Oh, interesting.
Kate: I love getting up early. I love waking up before everybody in my house, and it's the most productive time for me. So this morning I got up and did my online grocery shopping and did a yoga class.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: I guess what I'm saying is my intention this week is to think less about what I've read that works for other people and lean into crafting something that works for myself in the space of getting up in the morning in that space.
Doree: Love this for you.
Kate: Now, I know last week your intention was figuring out your tennis life, and I suspect, I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I suspect that has been on hold while you have handled the mucus in your head.
Doree: Yeah, that has been on hold. Had to, I was supposed to practice on Friday night and I was like, I can't think I can do this, but I am captain of a team for spring.
Kate: Congratulations. That's so cool. Were you voted captain?
Doree: No. No. What happened was there's a woman I met on my current team and we played doubles a bunch of times and whenever we play doubles together, we win. And whenever we play with other people, we don't win. So you do the math. Anyway, we became friendly and she was the captain of the winter team and they were kind of doing different configurations for the spring season. The teams would be bigger, and so I was like, do you want me to co-captain? And she was like, yes, that would be amazing. So with her,
Kate: I love that.
Doree: And yeah, I mean it's like herding cats a little bit, but I have no problem with bugging people about stuff.
Kate: You're a good cat herder.
Doree: Although it does get to be a lot. Sometimes I'm like, just put in your availability. It's not that hard. Come on.
Kate: But it is. But sometimes it just is, isn't it?
Doree: I guess so. Yeah,
Kate: I know. I know.
Doree: So yeah, so this week, I mean honestly, all I can think about is the mucus in my nose, so I think I just need to focus on getting better.
Kate: Just rest.
Doree: Yeah. Thank You. J
Kate: ust rest and take care of yourself.
Doree: Thank you so much.
Kate: Well, let me be the first to tell you that this podcast forever35 is hosted and produced by us, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer. It's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is a cast. Doree, I hope you feel better.
Doree: Thank you so much.
Kate: Thank you for being here. Bye.