Episode 230: Talk Thirty To Me with Anna Malaika Tubbs

“It’s a humbling notion that you did not do this yourself. And instead you’re continuing something that others did before you.”

- Anna Malaika Tubbs

Kate and Doree share an exciting announcement and each pursue a new form of movement. Then, Anna Malaika Tubbs, author of The Three Mothers, joins them to discuss her bedtime routine, her recent 30th birthday and the ways she made it special, the importance and magnitude of both generational trauma and strength, and her next book about patriarchy in America. 

To leave a voicemail or text for a future episode, reach them at 781-591-0390. You can also email the podcast at forever35podcast@gmail.com.

Visit forever35podcast.com for links to everything they mention on the show or shopmyshelf.us/forever35.

Follow the podcast on Twitter (@Forever35Pod) and Instagram (@Forever35Podcast) and join the Forever35 Facebook Group (Password: Serums). 

Sign up for the newsletter! At forever35podcast.com/newsletter.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. 

Transcript

 

Kate: Hello, everyone. Welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer.

Doree: I am Doree Shafrir

Kate: And we are not experts.

Doree: It's true, Kate. We are not, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums,

Kate: You know, at what point do we get to change that intro? And it is, it turns into, and we are experts like now.

Doree: I mean, we could,

Kate: You know, experts about what, who knows, but <laugh>, at some point I feel like we've earned it.

Doree: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, right? This is kind of an existential question of like, at what point do you become an expert in something that you've been doing for a long time? And if the sort of the premise of our show was that we were coming at it from a perspective of perspective of not being experts, what does that mean for like the direction of the show? You know? Well, I also

Kate: Feel like the more I learn, the more, I don't know, and thus, I almost become less of an expert.

Doree: Mm. Well, it's kind of like how, like, teenagers think they know everything.

Kate: Oh boy. Don't I know it. I mean, I don't have a teenager yet, but I have a one who's close.

Doree: Right. So you're getting a little preview and it's like taste, right. Cuz you're so young, you don't know what you have the blind, you have like the confidence of

Kate: <laugh>

Doree: Just, you know, that's like, I feel like that's why people who have like some, some people who have this like kind of weird self-confidence it's because they've kind of, they've almost deliberately not sought out the things that would make them question anything about themselves or like the world. Oh yes. Which is my theory,

Kate: Which is essentially what a teenager is. And I do think as a teenager, you do start to question and explore those things, but you do also go into it with a little bit of a like assumption that you already know everything. Listen, we'll continue this conversation, but just a, a friendly reminder, uh, that if you wanna reach us, you can chime in on this topic or any topic by leaving us a voicemail or a text message at 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9 0. Or you can email us at forever 35 podcast, gmail.com.

Doree: Yes. And do sign up for our newsletter@foreverthirtyfivepodcast.com slash newsletter. You can visit our website forever 35 podcast.com. We have links to everything we mentioned on the show. You can also go to our shelves at shop night, shelf.us/forever five, where things are arranged a little bit more kind of thematically. So if you're looking for like, Kate's all the thing that Kate recommends for, but care all in one place,

Kate: It's all there. I just bringing it back to

Doree: The, but I mean, it just always goes back to the, but um, we're also on Instagram at forever 35 podcast. And we do have a Facebook group, um, that is not run by us, but is we're there? We're there. Uh, the password is we do chime in the password. There is serums Kate. Now that we've gotten all that out of the way and had a side conversation about

Kate: <laugh> about something,

Doree: About something. You have some, you have some big news Doree

Kate: Yesterday. I went and I saw my hand surgeon and I got an X. I got my x-rays done again and showed him the progress I've made with my hand. And he officially released me into the wild. He said, I don't need to see you again. Goodbye. Wow. Don't he said, don't take up skateboarding or go rollerblading. And I said, I also won't roller skate. And he said, good call. And then we literally fist bumped. And I went on my Merry way. I know. And I fist bumped with my broken hand to prove that I could make a fist anyway. Oh my God. Gosh. So it's, it took 10 months, two surgeries, lots of physical therapy. But my hand is now in a place where I can just do all the strengthening and take care of it at home. It's not, it's not a hundred percent better, but it is in a place where like, I don't need to be going to physical therapy twice a week.

Doree: Oh my gosh. This is huge.

Kate: Honestly, it is because I felt pretty low in may when I had to get the second surgery, even though it was like the right step, there is just something where it's like, oh my gosh, this feels like it's never gonna end. And yeah, even though my hand, isn't like, I still have a long way to go in terms of strength and mobility. It's, it's so much better than it was before my second surgery. I can actually kind of grip things like before I would grip my steering wheel and my pinky wouldn't and my index finger or my pointer, wait, the ring, that's it. They basically wouldn't work. They were just kind of floating. So it is exciting. Oh my gosh. Much. Yeah. So that was exciting. You know, that felt good. That felt like one thing checked off my, the to-do list of my body.

Doree: I mean, this has been a journey it's

Kate: It's been, I tell you what, let me be very honest with people. I love like folks in their forties and fifties who are like, I've always wanted a skateboard and here I am doing it. Like, I love it. And I wish I could, but this has been a true lesson in just what can happen to our bodies and how it takes a little bit longer to heal these days than it maybe would. I was 12.

Doree: You're really making me. So I dunno if I ever told you this.

Kate: Oh boy, because

Doree: This is a real, I feel like this is a real Kate Spencer move that I did. I bought it. OK. I bought a pair of roller skates

Kate: Story. What? I didn't know

Doree: This. Yeah. I never told you this. Why

Kate: Did you hide it?

Doree: I dunno. I guess it just like came up now. The reason I say it is very Kate Spencer is because they've sat in a corner by office ever since I bought them <laugh> I have never put them on

Kate: The intention. Was there,

Doree: The intention was there. I was definitely influenced by those. Have you seen those TikTok videos of women in like their thirties and forties who like took up rollers skating at the beginning of the pandemic and now they're like doing back dances?

Kate: Yes.

Doree: And I was like, I mean, I don't, that's be me exactly. But like I see, I could see a world where like I become really into roller skating and then I was like, what am I thinking? I'm going break every bone in my body

Kate: Am telling you. I mean, I am also very, in terms of TikTok, there are like roller skating clubs, like roller skating groups. Yes. In like Atlanta who do like amazing dance moves around the rink. Totally. Like it totally is so fun to watch and so impressive. And I could barely even, I can't even stop on a pair of roller skates. Like, I'm not saying I could do this, but it's like, you watch this. And you're like, I want that joy. I wanna taste this feeling same with the same with the people who are like, at the beginning of 2020, I buy my first tailor of roller skates. And you see them like dough, legged rolling by. And then like two years later, they're like you said, doing back flips. And you're like, this could be me

Doree: Totally.

Kate: But the truth is, let's be honest. It could be us, but you would probably end up in the boat that I'm in of 10 months of surgery and other hell scapes.

Doree: I mean, this is, this is my concern. I, I remember years ago when I lived in Philly, I wrote an article about a roller skating club, I guess that was amazing. Um, and you know, when I was little, I used to really enjoy roller skating, but like, I don't know, but it just <laugh> when you just said that about being old, um, I was like, I need to tell Kate about my, my failure to launch my roller skating hobby. Well, I would

Kate: Also like, maybe you also should try it. I mean, that's, the other thing is I would never want to discourage myself or anyone else from trying something based on perceived limitation or fear. But I do also think, like, you also think like hurting our ourselves or injuring ourselves, like that is an actual consideration that is, and then trust me, I'm learning this

Doree: The hard way, right? Like that's a thing. I also, I, if I do decide to do this, I need to get all kinds of pads, which I don't currently have. So I would not go out with no padding. I mean, just knee pads. I need elbow pads. I need wrist pads. I need a helmet. I need <laugh>. I need a bubble. Just put a bunch, bunch of like purple

Kate: Pillows all over. You strap a bunch of purples to your knees. Those are very cushiony. They're

Doree: Very cushiony. I should just strap a purple mattress to myself.

Kate: <laugh> honestly, you should just skate straight down the road and then flop into a purple mattress.

Doree: <laugh> oh my

Kate: Gosh. Ah, this grid technology is so comfortable. <laugh> sorry. I do really love our sponsor. Purple. I don't, I don't think they're even sponsoring us right now, but I just wanna give them a shout out. Cause I love their pros. Well, it's interesting though, because we both are kind of coming to this episode, talking about moving our bodies. Yeah. And I'm curious, like, I, I, your update, I wasn't aware of, so you joined a gym.

Doree: I did. I joined a gym. <laugh>

Kate: Like a traditional kind of like Equinox crunch, New York sports club. Yes. Gym. Okay. So

Doree: Kate, yes, I did join a gym, a new gym opened not too far from where I live and I went to check it out and I was like, you know what? I think I'm ready to jump back in to gym world. I hadn't been inside a gym since lockdown gym, world,

Kate: Gym

Doree: World. And this one felt very like airy and lots of air circulating <laugh>. Um, and yeah, it's been great. And another kind of fun thing that happened because I joined this gym is I was saying to my husband, you know, it's like, it's, it's close enough to our house. That when I drive there, I feel really silly. <laugh>

Kate: Cause it's feel very Los Angeles.

Doree: Yes. But also like it's been really hot and like walking is hot over there. Like it's not like a shady leafy walk. It's like kind of a hot walk. And

Kate: So I, yeah, it's concrete and yeah. Yeah. But

Doree: I was, but it's kind of hot to walk and he's like, well, you do have a bike. And I was like, I do have a bike that I haven't ridden in so long. And he very kindly like tuned it up for me. Oh,

Kate: He

Doree: Filled the air in my tires. He like oiled it. He made sure the chain was like all lubed up and the brakes worked and all this stuff. And I was like, oh my gosh, of course this is like the perfect solution, a bike

Kate: <laugh>

Doree: Of course

Kate: Who knew this old trust could.

Doree: So this morning I rode my bike to the gym. So, you know, I think as we kind of are deep in year three of the pandemic mm-hmm <affirmative> I know that I personally am just kind of trying to figure out how do I live with this in the world? Mm-hmm <affirmative> while also getting back into the world. So

Kate: This is the question we are all asking, isn't it?

Doree: Yes. And I have decided that going to the gym is something going to this gym is something that makes me happy and it's it's, you know, the risk of possibly getting COVID. I hope I don't get COVID there. I could, um, is worth it to me.

Kate: I welcome this story. I mean, I think that's, that's kind of where I've landed, you know, like we, we both are, we don't have, you know, we're not high risk in our family members are not, so we are coming mm-hmm <affirmative> to it from that point of view. And I think, yeah, I think we are going to have to figure out how to keep existing. It's really hard. Yep. You know, but I'm, I support this. I think this is fantastic. Also there's something I think I have maybe, I don't know if you feel this way, but I have really missed just being around people. And it's not even that I miss like being around friends, which I do, but it's also the feeling of just like being out in the world amongst others, even if I don't know, know that I,

Doree: I wrote a very Ramly thing about this in my newsletter the other day. Maybe I'm just, um, like

Kate: Copying what you said.

Doree: I mean, but I think it's a very common feeling that we're, that a lot of people are feeling right now. Like this need to be sort of in community with not just like people we know. Yes. But also just people around like, you know, the idea of being amongst people is a very, I think a very human need.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. It really is.

Doree: Um, and you know, I know I have personally been seeking out and setting up, um, ways for me to be in community with other people like doing work and mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that's something that's like really important to me. And I was like, I'm not gonna wait around for someone else to like, take the initiative to do this. I'm just gonna do it. Thank you. And it's been great. So, and we're all rapid testing before we get together, you know what I mean? Like, and so I feel like that is kind of, that's how that's the calculation I've made for myself that I feel comfortable with. Um, we're not masked when we're together, but we're all rapid testing and trusting each other that like, if you have a symptom, you stay home and like that kind of thing, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like we're all kind of prose at this now.

Kate: Yeah, I think so. I definitely think so. I mean, I feel lucky that that is, you know, the kind of community we're in, but yeah, I'm with you a hundred percent. I'm just kind of like ready to figure this out because I want to, I want to be out there with people.

Doree: Totally.

Kate: I think I mentioned this previously, before we went on our little July hiatus, but I have had to kind of recalibrate how I've moved physically and exercise because of my, uh, long COVID tired bodies yeah. Situation, which means I'm, I have to like really take it more easy and not do super high and intense workouts. And so I have been walking, which, you know, like is the most obvious thing in the world, but yet I always kind of neglect that, that walking is just, you know, a, an, a physical activity that I am able to do. And it's been really pleasant.

Doree: That's so great

Kate: Now, because I am, of course me, I have downloaded a habit tracker and I am trying to get 10,000 steps a day and track it now, will I ruin the joy of this? I don't know, but I will just, I'm just telling you for transparency. That is part of what I am doing, trying to get those 10,000 steps.

Doree: Okay.

Kate: But I also just love, like getting up and going outside and seeing other folks out walking and, you know, I just, my body feels good. It doesn't feel stressed out from it. It just has been, I don't know, it's been a pleasant experience thus far, so I might be a Walker.

Doree: It might, I love this for you.

Kate: It's hard to slow down though. Like, it's very hard not to be like, you gotta go harder. So I don't know. We'll see how it goes.

Doree: Hmm. It does occur to me that like, we, we are, we are both, I think pursuing, I don't wanna call them hobbies necessarily pursuits we're pursuing pursuits. <laugh>

Kate: Well, I mean, um, I haven't even told you about the pickle ball lessons that I'm trying to coordinate. So like stay tuned,

Doree: You know, what's so funny just as a sidebar. And I mention, I mentioned this on excellent adventure. So if you listen eggs and adventure, you've already heard this anecdote, but I will tell it here, since you brought up pickleball, um, I have another friend, my friend Mallory, who is also trying to organize pickleball lessons. And I had said, you know, yes, I'm totally interested. Like everyone loves pickleball. It sounds so fun. Blah, blah, blah. So she puts us, she puts a bunch of people on this text chain and we're like, she's like, I have this coach and we're trying to arrange a time. And then at one point I was just like, you know what, Mallory, I think I'm at hobby capacity.

Kate: <laugh>, you've maxed out.

Doree: I've maxed out. I think I need to like, I, I just like the scheduling of it. And I was just like, I just don't think, I, I, I don't think I have the capacity to do this. Like, and she was like, oh, totally get it. Now I play Majong with her. So, you know, she's also, she's part of my hobby circuit.

Kate: Yeah. She gets what you do.

Doree: Yeah. But she was like, you can take yourself off the text chain. I was like, great. And then I left the conversation <laugh>

Kate: Yes. Doree is out <laugh>

Doree: But yeah, it was just kind of this moment where I was like, I don't think I don't, I don't think I have the capacity to take on another hobby that like relies on other people for scheduling <laugh>.

Kate: Mm. I think that's smart. I mean, it's kind of like the way, uh, parents are encouraged not to overschedule their children. Right. Like it's also nice to have downtime.

Doree: Totally wait. Okay. So what oh, but what I was gonna say is it occurs to me that both of us are oh, yes. Engaging in pursuits that are kind of like lifelong things. Like you can walk into your nineties, you know? Yeah. Hopefully. Um, and I, I think that like these kinds of things are things that will serve us well.

Kate: Well, it is, I, I think you make a good point and I have kind of been trying to think about like, what can I do longer term, like not to circle back to the roller skating, which of course I hope people can roller skate forever, but for me, that just signals trip to the emergency room. And so I'm kind of like, how do I slow this down? And I don't know, do stuff that's maybe a bit more sustainable for my body, my personal individual body. Okay. Nobody else's mind. Oh, wow. We have really we've really run the gamut and we haven't even gotten to some exciting news and our guests. So I'm just gonna hand the mic to you Doree, because I we've got stuff to share.

Doree: We really do. Thank you for passing the mic to me, although I'm sure you could have done this justice as well. We have a really exciting update. As long time listeners may know we attempted merch in the past and for various reasons, it just, it wasn't the right fit for us. And it just didn't work out. So we haven't been doing merch for three years, something like that. And then a fan of the pod whose name is Brooke Forry, who runs a company called balance bound, sent us some of her planners. We've talked about them on the show. We love her stuff. She has these amazing note, PA like everything that she makes is great. And she suggested that we do a forever 35 balance bound collab. So this is finally happening and the stuff is so cool. <laugh> it's so glad you it's so good. It's so good. There's it's so cute. There's planners. There's journals. There's pencils. There's notepads.

Kate: There's there do hotel

Doree: There's inside

Kate: Jokes, inside jokes. There's

Doree: Do hotel key chains and match books match matches. They're not match. They're not books.

Kate: Right? Little match, match sets,

Doree: Little match sets. Like everything is so cool. And I think you're gonna be obsessed with it. So it has just launched and you can check it out at balance bound.co/shop/forever 35 will also link to it in the show notes. We'll put it on our social media. It's everywhere, but it's just really it's. It also feels very us.

Kate: Yeah. And it was, if

Doree: I may,

Kate: You may Doree it's so it's so beautifully executed and like truly, it was such an amazing collaboration with Brooke who is a listener. Also wanna note Brooke is a podcaster also. Yes. And if you are looking for another podcast, listen to, we wanna just shout out her podcast, which is good enough ish, which is like, if you are in the mood for a gentle organizational kind of life advice, getting through the day podcast, that is what it is there for. Brooke has that soothing energy we all need and want. And let me tell you, she's also incredibly creative because the merch is great. It's really adorable.

Doree: It's it's really cool.

Kate: Yeah. It's great. We're we're, we're excited about it to say the least only us four and years.

Doree: I mean, look, <laugh>, we do things on our own time here. We

Kate: Really do. Oh, we do. <laugh> well, someone who is not doing things on a slow timeline. No <laugh> is our guest today. That's

Doree: A great segue.

Kate: I mean, because it's so true. So we had the absolute pleasure of getting to speak with Anna Malika tubs. She's amazing. And she just turned 30, 30 <laugh> you don't even, you will not be able to handle per bio. Uh, she's just, I mean, we just, our conversation with her, like this might end up being a long episode because it was so interesting. And I felt like we could have gone for a hundred days. Like I know,

Doree: I know same,

Kate: There were so many topics I wanted to cover. So Anna is a New York times best selling author. She's published articles on topics ranging from celebrating motherhood to addressing the four sterilization of black women, as well as the importance of feminism, intersectionality, and inclusivity. Um, her book is incredible. I listened to the audio book, it's called the three mothers and she's just like a knowledgeable, brilliant human. So I'm sorry, lemme take this again. Her, her book, which is her first book is called the three mothers. How the mothers of Martin Luther king, junior, Malcolm X and James Baldwin shaped a nation. It's a New York times bestseller received critical acclaim. It was featured in places like Oprah daily USA today. And I had the pleasure of listening to the audio book, which she narrates. And it's just, it's just fantastic. I learned so much, um, it's just an amazing book. She's working on a second book, which we talk about and she's just incredibly inspiring and fun to talk to.

Doree: Yes. And I should also say, she's not one of those people that will like make you feel bad about yourself. Like <laugh> that you haven't accomplished all these things by the time you're 30, cuz she's just super nice and down to earth and you'll love her.

Kate: Yeah. So yeah, we, it was so, so great to get to talk. We're so grateful for her time. So please enjoy like we did our conversation with Anna

Doree: Wait and before we get to the conversation, I do just wanna give a shout out to previous, forever 35 guests, Eve Rodsky Eve, who is how we met Anna. And thank you Eve for introducing us.

Kate: So a connect of humans,

Doree: Connect of humans. All right. Without further ado here is Anna.

Kate: We're so glad to have you on forever 35. Thank you for joining us today. We can't wait to dig in with you.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Kate: So to kick things off, we always love to ask our guests about a self care practice that they have in their own life. And this can truly be anything it's really a reflection of what self care is to you and to our other guests. So sorry for putting you on the spot would love to hear about something that you do that provides you with a sense of selfcare.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Hmm. I love that question. Um, there are couple things. One is going to bed at the same time, every night, trying to, um, so that's been the thing recently, you know, I have two kids under three, um, and I realized I can't be the best parent I can. I could be if I'm not going sleep. Um, and I'm not taking care of that time and really setting boundaries around it. Cause my husband doesn't agree that we like need to go to sleep at a certain time and I'm no, we need to. And if you're not going to the door is getting locked, cuz I am gonna go to bed. <laugh>

Doree: What time, what time do you go to bed?

Anna Malaika Tu...: 10 30. It's not even that early, but 10 30 is what I'm trying for. And then trying to wake up around six 30 or 7, 6 30 on days that I wanna get a workout in, in the morning, seven on days where I'm good and I just need to, you know, start getting ready for taking my kid to school and all of that. Um, so that's my latest thing that I'm really trying to focus on like consistently with my sleep.

Kate: Can I just circle back to how you navigate that with a partner? Because I think this is so interesting. I feel like rarely are there couples with the same like sleep habits and bedtimes and hygiene practices. <laugh> who have you, have you gotten your spouse on board with this bedtime? Do you all do different bedtimes? Like how have you kind of navigated this?

Anna Malaika Tu...: I think for a lot of years I felt much more. So my husband and I we've been together for 11 years, married for six, but together for 11. And I always used to think the priority was that we go to bed at the same time and together, you know, that was the most important thing. And so I was really, I would emphasize that and I started going to bed later, so that we'd go to bed at the same time. It was the whole thing. And then I realized this is not working for me. I like my sleep. We are completely different in this. And I actually think he needs more sleep too. But until he comes to that conclusion, I need to take care of myself and prioritize just going to bed over us, going to bed together. Uh, so it's, it's, it's hard to navigate mainly if he decides now is when I'm gonna brush my teeth now is when I'm coming in the room at 10 30, even though Anna told me she's gonna bed at 10 30.

So it's been a little bit of a contentious thing actually. Um, but it's something that, you know, my counselor, my therapist has said, you can set that boundary and you can tell him, this is when I'm gonna bed. And if that hasn't really been respected, like you gotta lock the door. Like sometimes partners need a moment of like, oh, what, oh, this was a real rule. <laugh> I understand now let's do this differently. So it's new for me, but I'm trying to be better about it. Especially since having kids, you know, I think that kids will teach you very quickly that your energy is not limitless. You only have so much energy to give and in order to be the best parent, especially cuz we wanna be dental parents, how can I expect myself to be patient on little sleep? And I don't wanna feel guilty because I had a reaction towards my toddler. You know, toddler times can be dark sometimes. Um, when I really just needed to sleep. So it all kept coming back to rest is key and mom feeling her best is key. And that's where it all kind of needs to be, I guess.

Kate: Yeah. Sealed up, put your oxygen mask on first. Right?

Anna Malaika Tu...: Exactly, exactly. So that's where I am, but it it's, I don't feel like I have a good answer necessarily, but kind of shifting our priorities and we can still have a date night or something and that's when our time can happen and um, make sure we talk to each other and connect, but it doesn't necessarily have we that to go <laugh>.

Kate: Well, it's funny too. Like I feel like often what we've seen when, um, couples are modeled in pop culture is like they're in there brushing their teeth at the same time. You know, just like in these kind of stupid, you know, fictional portrayals. That's often how it is. They're going to bed at the exact same time and that's definitely not how it is at, in my house. Um, I'm in bed earlier and, and my husband's also the one who's coming in at like midnight and like clumping around and brushing his teeth. It's like,

Anna Malaika Tu...: Yeah, well I read a whole article actually about this at some couples are even sleeping in like separate rooms if they have to so that one can get better sleep, but I have, I'm a really light sleeper. And especially since my kids were born, I became even more of a light sleeper because you know, you're always thinking, oh, does someone need me? What was that sound I need to go? You know, and it's not something that really happened for my husband. And so he was of the mindset of like, you can't control the whole situation just cuz you have to sleep. And I say, actually I can. And I will because in order for this family to do well, I'm gonna need to sleep. So I'm doing a favor, not only to myself, but to all of us and we'll all experience the, the results as <laugh> if

Kate: We yeah. And the benefits right. Of you getting rest,

Anna Malaika Tu...: Who knew I could talk so much about that. Great, great. First question

Kate: Probably devote an entire hour just to your 10:30 PM bedtime. Like we,

Doree: I mean this, this has been an ongoing theme for us, like sleep hygiene, bedtime routines at various times, Kate and I have both kind of taken this on as a personal project <laugh> um, to varying degrees of success. I have, I have, uh, like a, I have a sleep disorder. I have night terrors. So I've had to be like really mindful about sleep. And sometimes I do better at that and sometimes I don't. Yeah. But the going to bed at the same time every night is one of those things that when you have a sleep disorder, they tell you is like so important just to have that regularity. So whether or not you have a sleep disorder, I think it's like, it's so beneficial. So

Anna Malaika Tu...: Yeah,

Doree: I was glad to hear you say that.

Anna Malaika Tu...: I think we talk about it with kids all the time. Totally at their routine, but we don't do that for ourselves. And once we do do that for ourselves, we actually can see that it's beneficial for everybody. So,

Kate: Well, I, I have another kind of adjacent question before we dig into, um, your work. I saw that you recently turned 30.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Yes.

Kate: So first happy birthday, happy birthday. I just also wanna honor that you are a fellow cancer and I feel like that's very important. Yes. The energy, this conversation can be very can serious. Are you both?

Doree: I'm a TAUs.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Okay. I don't know a lot about TAs. Yeah. Tory.

Kate: I'm a July 10th. Yes I am a, I just had my birthday as well.

Anna Malaika Tu...: A happy

Kate: Birthday. Thank you. Same to you. Um, well it let me know kind of wonder and I had read, I think you posted about it on Instagram, but how, how does one, how does this new, you know, this feeling of entering this kind of new decade of age feel for you? Yeah. And do you, did, did you, or do you do anything kind of mark this transition from 29 to 30? I mean, I, I don't obviously age is, but a number mm-hmm <affirmative> and can often really not mean anything, but, but it's also a nice time to kind of, I don't know, create a sense of a ritual.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Yeah, definitely. And I think some kind of, you know, ceremony and thoughtfulness and reflection. Absolutely. And I do that every year for my birthday. I have, you know, I list out things that I wanna improve on or things that I'm proud of or whatever, but this year, not only because I was entering a new decade and it was, you know, 30, um, but I also lost my mom this year. And um, everyone who maybe knows even a little bit about my work, it's all about motherhood. I'm all about celebrating moms. And even before I became a mom, this was something that was important to me because I had such an incredible mother. And so to experience this huge loss, um, that is so defining and to also have many of my dreams come true when I was 29 this year, you know? Um, not only that, I was already a mom of a wonderful, incredible little boy, but I also gave birth to our daughter this year.

And I became a New York times bestselling author this year. And I got thank you to book deals to keep writing like this confirmation of you've arrived in your career. And it's just the beginning and also losing the person who was my guiding light in that. And I needed to do something kind of that really reflected the moment <laugh> in that sense. Um, so I just decided we're gonna do a Mexico trip with my, some of my closest friends and family. Um, we drove into via like Guadalupe, which is such a beautiful area. People haven't been yet, um, wonderful food and you can go wine tasting and you can go to the beaches that are a little further away and just being with people in person, because I'm the kind of person who even when a lot is happening, good or bad. I never really like break down.

I have a way of keeping going, but that's not always a good thing. Um, and I needed to be with people to let myself be vulnerable and laugh and be happy and reflect and celebrate. And also have some moments where I cried and was held by my loved ones. And especially as a mom, again, like so much of this comes back to that. You don't feel that you have those opportunities all the time, um, to just focus on you. And so I realized going into 30, I need this moment of let yourself focus on you a little bit more moving forward, and yes, your career is booming and there's so much coming and so much that I'm working on. Um, and how can I make sure that my not too many pieces fall, you know, not too many of the balls that I'm juggling fall, but only the ones that aren't as important.

I can let them go intentionally more so than anything else. So it was a, this year was a lot of reflection. <laugh> a lot of reflection. And then the last thing I'll say is this, this amazing photographer reached out to me a couple weeks before my birthday. She didn't know was my birthday, but she was asking if I would do a shoot. Um, and if she could just do this, you know, one lifestyle shoot, I could wear whatever outfit I wanted. We could go wherever. And I thought, this is a really cool way to mark, um, that I'm turning 30 and I'll be able to look back on these pictures that were beautifully done and professionally done. And she was, she blew me away. Her talent was just so incredible. And the, the I in which she approached her work and it's the biggest gift to have. I can go back and see them and even show my kids like this is what, um, you know, what was going on in my life when I was this age. And you both were only, my daughter's only 11 months old and my son is two and nine months old. Um, so it really marked the moment for me.

Doree: Um, that's really, that's really beautiful and lovely. And I think I saw at least one of those photos on your Instagram.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Yeah. They're on

Doree: Instagram. <laugh>, they're really, they're really beautiful

Anna Malaika Tu...: Is the photographer. Anyone's looking for a wonderful photographer in LA. She's amazing.

Doree: Um, well you alluded to your New York times bestselling book, three mothers. Um, and we wanted to talk a little bit about it for the benefit of our listeners who may not have read it yet. Can you just give us a little bit of, uh, a summary of the book and also, maybe I'd also love to know just kind of how you came to this subject.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Yeah. So the book is called the three mothers, how the mothers of Martin Luther king Jr. Malcolm X and James Baldwin shaped a nation. And it's entirely about their moms Albert to king Luis little and be Baldwin. And I was working on this book as part of my PhD dissertation. Um, and I came up with the idea, um, after many different things, of course, like we're all inspired by so many things that lead to big moments, but I try to summarize it by saying a couple examples. One was hidden figures, this beautiful book by Margo Lee, shutter Lee that went on to become the film that many watched, um, about women, black women who had been erased and the, their contributions had been erased specifically in the math calculations they made for NASA. Um, and I thought this is so infuriating that this is the first time I'm hearing these women's names and this shouldn't be this way.

And I wanna be somebody who corrects history in the way that Margo Lee shadow Lee is. I was also incredibly inspired by is Wilkerson's warmth of other sons. Um, and the way in which she tells this triad story to explain that if you don't understand black American history, you're not gonna understand American history really. And the individual stories and the complexity of our identities need to be respected, um, and valued. And these were the kind of two books that I loved. And then from a personal perspective of having a mom who cared so deeply about women's rights and mother's rights, and who had dedicated her life to that and taken us around the world with her work, me, my siblings, um, being able to witness what she was doing internationally and in the us advocating, um, for women and mothers to be taken more seriously and respected, um, and given the supports that they deserve.

So it was all this like hidden figures, project plus motherhood, um, celebrating black women. I was really excited. And the way that I narrowed it down to these three was speaking about not the women behind the men, cause I really hate that term, but the women before the men even existed, mm-hmm <affirmative> and the little bit of research that I did on several mothers of civil rights, heroes and leaders made me think I'm gonna do this also to fight the patriarchy, really challenged this notion of the self made man. Um, and make it clear that no man is self made <laugh>

Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Anna Malaika Tu...: Um, and do it very specifically with mothers of sons. So this is all before I was a mom myself, and, um, found out that Betis Louise and Alberta were all born within six years of each other. And then their famous sons were all born within five years of each other. And I thought, that's beautiful. I can bring together these complex stories and not reduce them, but instead bring them together in time, rather than trying to generalize their identities. I could celebrate their differences while also speaking to the reality of what it is to be a black woman, a black girl born in the early 19 hundreds, having a black child in the 1920s, many black children, and two of them not passing away until the 1990s. So that's, it all just started to kind of come together from there. And then that's when I started my research.

Kate: I have lots of questions just as I'm in the, the process of listening. I mean, one thing that I, I have really been kind of struck by and reflecting on as I've been listening to the book is this idea of both generational trauma. Yeah. But also generational strength and what is, what is passed on. Um, and it's just been, it's been so moving to get to learn about these women and, and even, even as I was listening, like you were, you're talking about their parents and I'm like, oh yeah, they also had people infl, you know, it's like, you, you realize it, but you don't. Um, yeah. So I would just love to kind of know, like how, how have you thought about this kind of idea of passed on or generational experiences? Is it, is it something you've kind of thought about on a cultural level, as a writer and researcher and academic, but also as you know, in your own lived experience?

Anna Malaika Tu...: Absolutely. It's something I've always been very aware of. And I would say, I will give my dad credit on this one, that he was always big on us understanding our history and like who came before us and this humbling notion of like, you did not do this yourself <laugh> and instead you're continuing something that others did before you. And that that's not something to like undermine me and my accomplishments, but instead it really builds on the beauty of what the legacy that you're continuing. And so it's something I always personally think about. I'm very big on origin stories. Any of my friends, you can ask them and I know more about their grandparents and parents than most of their friends do, because that's usually where my questions go towards, you know, tell me your mom's story. Tell me your dad's story. Tell me, um, your parents' story, your grandparents.

It just is so interesting. The depth that you can reach in a relationship when you go further in time and see all of the ways in which that person is being influenced. And they might not even notice it until they start talking about it. And I say, this is not cool that now you do this thing when your grandparent was, you know, dreaming of this years and years ago. So, um, I love making those connections and I think it's really important, even when we're thinking about, you know, national leaders, politics, um, policy, what is it all built on? Um, and my next book actually is exploring this like the system of American patriarchy and the way in which right now we're speaking about all these symptoms of American patriarchy is if they're separate of each other, rather than being built on the thing that's been in place since the founding father is signed the declaration of independence, we always have to go back and that's sounds cliche, but that is the way you see how we're supposed to move forward. Um, without that, without an accurate assessment of our history, um, accepting historical amnesia, for instance, we're not able to fix anything and that's on purpose. So erasure is a very strategic thing and we all have to do our part to fight that.

Kate: I mean, this is jumping ahead a little bit, but can we, can we hear a little bit about your next book and how it has been going, working on it?

Anna Malaika Tu...: Absolutely. I started writing this one and I have the idea for it because on my book tour for the three mothers, I was really privileged to be able to speak to so many audiences because it was all virtual <laugh>. Um, so I spoke to more people than I was originally imagining. And in every single conversation people would ask me, how did Alberta Burtis and Louise get a race? Like once you read the book or hear the book you feel so shocked. I mean, I didn't, but a lot of people feel shocked and it's this moment of obviously these women were so influential on their son's lives, but why didn't we know that? How, how, how did this happen? And so I really struggle with this question because I sit there thinking this is a really simple answer and it's also complex, but the simple thing is something we call patriarchy and the way it intersects with racism, um, out of with many other things that it intersects with makes it so that the further someone is from being a white cisgendered, straight able bodied, man, the less likely we are to value your life.

Um, not only while you're alive, but even more so Postly, we're gonna erase your contributions. We're gonna make it seem like you were not needed at all. Um, and so when we're looking at black mothers, um, and we're talking about famous sons, it doesn't fit the American patriarchal notion that moms were influencing them. And that these sons were following in their mom's footsteps for their careers. I'm not only talking about the life that they were beautifully given, but their careers, the strategies that they became famous for, they are learning from their mothers. And what does that do to change our entire understanding of American patriarch? So this is what happened. And I was talking to my editor about it <laugh> and I was like, I wanna write a book that brings it very clear to our minds and very, um, to the forefront of our minds, that we are all still being controlled by a system of American patriarchy.

And it looks, it seems almost invisible because it's become so ingrained in our lives. And then we have moments of shock and awe, for instance, like when Roe V Wade was overturned, people were shocked. That really shouldn't be shocking because the Supreme court is filled with people who believe in American patriarchy. And we shouldn't say, oh, this could never happen in the us. Actually, the us was designed for that to happen. <laugh> so we need a book that people can go to where they understand that all of the different tentacles of American patriarchy are operating in these different ways, but until we bring our fight together, we're not going to be able to destroy that common enemy. And of course it comes back to devaluing the feminine notions of community and thinking about interconnectedness in societies. And instead we're valuing the masculine individualism, which is tearing us apart. We saw this during C we didn't have a collective response. We had an individual one in the us. So there's something very unique about how patriarchy operates in this country and coming from my perspective of moving all over the place, I've seen this. Um, so that's the concept. It's a big one.

Doree: When I, when I, when I read about it, I was like, oh my gosh, like where, like, where do you even start? This is just such a huge topic. Yeah. So I'm, so looking forward to your book, because I feel like you're so good at kind of distilling these, like thank you very big concepts, um, that do affect our lives in major ways, but are so hard to kind of articulate and you're so good at just distilling all of this. So I'm really, really looking forward to your, to your book, but, and I'm curious, like, what is your sort of way in here mm-hmm

Anna Malaika Tu...: <affirmative> to this book?

Doree: Yeah.

Anna Malaika Tu...: So definitely starting with thinking about, um, the research that I did for these three women, and it's kind of, the problem has been like turned on its head because with them, I was one of the first people to study them. So I'm uncovering every detail about them. I'm like traveling the country, trying to meet family members, trying to go through archives, calling local historians, finding census data, all of these things to put this book together. Um, there's so little out there and I have to uncover it, this book, the new book, which we're titling erased, which is both the nod to Alberta, British and Louise being erased, but also the system of American patriarchy being erased. And I'm gonna make it very obvious so that you can't deny it and you just can put your hands on it and take it apart in a very simple way.

Um, this is the, the opposite. There's so much I could say about <laugh> American patriarchy. So I now just need to find the most salient examples. And my goal has always been, um, I wanted to do my academic work. I wanted to get my PhD, but not because I wanted to become a professor right away. I could see that down the line more so, because I wanted to be able to take these, these concepts that seem complicated, like you said, and make them very simple, because it really is quite simple. Even if it's complex in its scale, when we can understand the core idea, there's so much that we can do and bringing people to that understanding and getting people to see that they align actually in that understanding, then we can tackle some of the things that seem more complex because of all the different ways in which they're affecting us.

Um, so my way in is really that kind of breaking it down, making it simple, um, modeling it similarly to the three mothers where you're having people that you can hold onto that are walking you through. Some of these stories, I am vulnerable in the three mothers and I will be in this book as well. I'll share some of my own examples that people can hold onto. And hopefully my readers will feel like they can be vulnerable. Um, but really applying it from the storytelling perspective. And I write novels as well. I also write fiction and I'm shopping a fiction now as well. <laugh> oh my gosh. My writing also takes on this like creative lens where I think people feel like you're hearing something that can be hard to hear, but you're understanding it. And that's my passion really? Um, yes, I have a PhD.

Yes, I understand it, but I don't participate in the jargon. That's just not my thing. And I'm not saying that no one should, we definitely need that, but I don't perform on purpose. So I try to sound and it's not even to make it sound like layman's term like that, even that is a really exclusive thing to say. It's more so I just refuse to perform <laugh>. I would rather people understand me, um, whether they studied sociology or not, you'll be able to walk with these books and, and, and hear what I'm saying. And hopefully will bring more people to the same table in that experiment that I'm, I'm pro performing. And so, yeah, this is a bigger one, but I'll also say that Isabelle Wilkerson, which she does in cast, um, if those have, who have read it, and those who haven't, I'm really inspired by how she took from her first book's research and then applied it to this larger concept of cast in the, so I'm doing something really similar except for patriarch.

Kate: I can <laugh> read it. I mean, truly, I can't wait. Thank

Anna Malaika Tu...: You.

Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay. We're back.

Kate: You touched on your experience in academia, and I do think it's important to know that you do have your PhD you've, you've gone through this amazing academic experience. Do you have advice for listeners who are currently in the process of getting advanced degrees and moving through those institutions, which as we all know, connect to patriarchy mm-hmm <affirmative> and I'd be curious, especially for black women who are in, in those spaces.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Yeah, absolutely. There's several things I could say about it. I mean, so much we're talking

Kate: Another podcast <laugh> yeah. We'll do this, the bedtime podcast episode and then the academia episode.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Exactly. But for this, I will say it is important to remember that these spaces were not built for us to thrive in. Um, and especially for women, women of color, there were so many ways in which people were trying to exclude us from being within these systems. And so I find it really important to always remember why you personally are entering this program and what your goal is, because it can become very easy to feel like you're supposed to do something because everybody else is doing it, or because that's how it's always been done. Or, um, someone's telling you that you're not going to be able to do it the way you want to do it. Like I heard this so many times, I mean, we have to picture this. I am a black woman who wants to write about black women and I'm at the university of Cambridge and it's very white.

It's very traditional I'm writing from the sense, and this perspective of I'm only gonna really use black women's voices. In my analysis, I'm refusing to work with some of the classic, you know, sociologists that were all supposed to quote or social scientists that everybody for no reason, I mean, it's like marks and babe and Durkheim, and I'm saying, I'm not gonna do that. I'm going to be quoting Patricia Hill Collins and Audrey Lord and Alicia Garza and like contemporary writers, even like, that's what I'm going to do. <laugh>. And so how do you do that with still getting the degree? Um, there's a lot of strategies that I use. So one knowing for myself, this is what I'm here to do, not being distracted by anything else. So I wasn't trying to publish in academic journals. I knew that. So even if everyone else is saying, gotta submit, we gotta do this so that you can get the next job or whatever.

I'm not going to do that. I need to remember that that's not my goal. And I am here to do something beyond the academy. So my work and my time is gonna be dedicated to getting published in, you know, the times, um, or in Huffington post or bla or wherever where I can meet people with my work right now. Um, and not feel like I'm failing in academia because I didn't decide to publish an academic journal. Um, so that's like one example. The other is I needed to seek advocates, um, at the schools where I was an undergrad and where I did my master's in where I did my PhD. So I was fortunate to have women of color as my advisors, or if you're in the UK as my supervisors, um, and really telling them from the beginning, we're gonna need to be, and working on this together, that we need to be strategic with my committee. I need committee members who are gonna understand what I'm trying to do. I'm not interested in being like academically hazed. I'm not gonna sit across <laugh> mm-hmm, <affirmative> the table from someone who is not gonna get what I'm doing. That's a waste of my time. Um, so you just have to be really sure <laugh> of yourself and shift when it's not making sense.

Doree: I have a just kind of general question based on stuff you've written, both in your book and elsewhere. Um, could we talk a little bit about the kind of cultural expectations for black mothers and the things that get projected onto black mothers, especially those who have experienced like a very public trauma. Um, what is that about? Why does that happen and how can we change that?

Anna Malaika Tu...: Ooh, another podcast episode

Doree: <laugh> yeah,

Anna Malaika Tu...: But I will do my best. Um, there is so much to say about this, but one of the primary things that comes up in, in my work and speaking about black motherhood in the us is that if you say to someone, you know, when you think about a black mother, what do you think about many people will say something like, oh, a grieving mother or something has happened to her children, or she's working really hard and she's so strong because all of these barriers are put in her place. And somehow she still persists, like, it's this very sense of like numbness to black women's pain. And I find it to be incredibly dehumanizing. Um, and that's not to say that we should not acknowledge the challenges that black women have continued to resist. Um, and it's not to say that we shouldn't, um, you know, in a way celebrate what black women have been able to do.

Um, cause obviously I'm all about that as well, but we are dehumanizing black women by removing the layers of complexity that cons that are con are experiences consist of. We are actually women who have continued to create life and have continued to find joy and have continued to center that not only for ourselves, but for our descendants, we are women who have transformed the nation. When you look back through so many moments in American history, many of these changes happen because black women refuse to accept the circumstance as it currently, or as it was, um, because they couldn't, that circumstance was telling them that they were not human, that their children were not human. And black women have said, no, we don't believe that. And so we have to envision something beyond what's readily available and we have to make it true. We have to March for that, we have to fight for that.

We have to speak for that. We have to organize for that. Um, and so black women have been such visionaries for our entire nation and in our entire world that we need to start seeing other people need to start seeing us in that way, with the respect that we deserve. And yes, the balance of there are things we have gone through that need to shift so that more black mothers don't go through this moving forward. Um, don't put that on the shoulders of black women and say, but you're so strong. And like, we really admire you for that. Instead say, this is a problem for our entire country and it's not okay that it has persisted for so long. What are policies that can change? And black women are there and readily saying, here are ways in which we can shift the whole system. I don't want to do this anymore.

I don't wanna fear for my life or my children's life in the same way that the women I studied through the 19 hundreds feared for their children's lives. It's not okay. So we need to continue to shift and we need more people to join us in that shift so that it can happen faster. We're not waiting for that help. We're gonna keep doing what we've been doing. However, the whole country will benefit if we start listening to black women, which goes back to the book I'm writing, a lot of it will come back to, this is what black women have been saying all along. So now let's start to, to act accordingly.

Kate: I think that also, um, is applicable in talking about, um, Aroy Wade being overturned. Um, and just where do we go from here? Uh, and I just wanted to touch on that before we wrap up our conversation. Um, you know, it's such a, uh, it's such a disheartening time right now, especially, although again, like you said, not one that should be a surprise for anybody. Um, and it's interesting to kind of reflect on this idea of forced parenthood, motherhood birth. Um, in addition to a conversation that I think takes place in your book in the ways in which, um, you know, black women have had, um, their reproductive rights taken away from them in so many different ways, um, right in our country. So I, I mean, this is now me just like broadly reflecting, but I, I guess I'm, I'm curious as to kind of, what have you been reflecting on in the wake of the Supreme court? Uh, overturning Roe V. Wade. And do you have thoughts in terms of, uh, how we can begin to kind of participate in concrete action that, um, helps us move forward and continue the fight for access to reproductive justice?

Again, goodness, maybe another podcast topic. <laugh> we keep doing this to you,

Anna Malaika Tu...: This to everybody

Kate: You've got. So like I just sit here and talk to you about anything it's like, we've gotta talk about, you know, your nail Polish color, but also this there's a lot here,

Anna Malaika Tu...: Currently they're pink. Um, okay. Where do we start with this? There's so much to be said first, this shock and Aw thing. I mean, we said this a bit already, but it needs to stop. We need to stop being so responsive to things and be preventative. This was not surprising. Yes, it's awful. Yes. It's it should not be the case that in 2022 women are feeling like they have no bodily autonomy and I'm not, sorry, not, I shouldn't have say feeling that, that they are not being given bodily autonomy in the country that they live in. Um, it shouldn't happen, but if we keep voting for people who are then going to nominate people for the Supreme court who believe what they believe that's, what's going happen. And what's most frustrating is if we look at the numbers and I'm not trying to vilify anyone, but the majority of white women voted for Donald Trump, I mean Villa and then Donald Trump chooses people for his court.

And then we wonder like, so that is the most annoying thing for people like me who study, like you had warning signs years before this, because this is how our country works. It's all connected. So just stop with the shock and a like, let's just stop that. It's, it's exhausting and I'm tired. <laugh> I don't want the people like the, the post and oh, how could this, this is how there's a clear line. It didn't just happen one day. And then the next day, and when the leak happened, we're now gonna get up in March. No, so we have the shock can go away. If we start to understand how that is connected to other things we can't choose pick and choose. When we care about women's rights, you have to care about all women's rights. If you care about women's rights, that includes caring about a system that let's say doesn't, you know, care about affordable childcare for everybody, or quality childcare for everybody.

All of those, these things are connected. It's the same system that says that one person can go and pick up a gun and walk into wherever they want to. Like, all of this is connected and you are not removed from it. And so even if it's not hurting you at the moment, you have to be involved now because otherwise more things are gonna be taken away. If it doesn't serve the dominant group, I'm gonna go from a bit of a sociological perspective here, and you have power that's been shared with you. That's usually only temporarily. And then when whatever need is met by the dominant group, that power is gonna be taken away from you. And this is an example of saying, you know, throughout history, many women have aligned themselves with their whiteness rather than with other people who are not in the dominant group and have chosen that, and then are surprised when their temporary power has been taken away.

Mm. So the only way for it to eventually happen so that the whole country is reorganized is that those of us who are not in the dominant group first choose to challenge it. And those who are in the dominant group choose to act differently. You don't have to keep power in your hands. You can exist in a system where things happen, communally, where we understand the interconnectedness of our lives, where we care beyond the individual. That is the only way forward. If we want to stop having moments where some people's rights are respected and some aren't, and they're not separate battles, it's the same fight. Um, and we have to care about our country as a collective. The last thing I'll say is I always speak about from a sociological perspective, the very first society is the family. And if are many societies, many societies that exist in the us, if they aren't thriving, they're gonna have ripple effects for our larger society.

And even if I don't live in your many society, if yours isn't doing well at some point, mine is going to be impacted. So that's where the perspective of caring about somebody else's society and somebody else's community comes in, we are all going to suffer. If we keep existing in a caste system that puts some above others. So I'll say also read Isabelle Wilkerson's cast. It will change your life. Well, for some of us, it's like, yeah, I knew. And like now I have the tool that I needed and thank God, cause I don't have time to like talk about this all the time for some it'll be like, wow, I didn't think of it this way. And I didn't realize that the power I thought I was holding by aspiring to be dominant was temporary and could easily be taken from me. I have a lot more to say about that, but that's where I'm gonna leave it. <laugh> hopefully that made some sense. <laugh>

Doree: Yeah. I mean, I think one thing that, you know, I've been thinking about a lot just in light of Roe V Wade and the pandemic and just everything that's been going on is how much of an individualistic society we are and how the power of community is so important. And I hope that we can kind of get back to those, making those connections and harnessing the power of community, um, on a completely different note. This is the last thing we're gonna totally a full 180, but we do like to ask our guests about their skincare routines.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Mine is not doing great. Right.

Doree: Um, so what do you have going on right now? And what products are you kind of loving, et cetera?

Anna Malaika Tu...: You know, the thing is though, you know, when you're pregnant and you're taking like your vitamins and your prenatal vitamins and your skin is thriving and your hair is thriving. And then I feel like usually around the mark where your kid's turning one, your body's like, Ooh, we're shifting things on you. Like, that's where I'm currently where I am right now. And I'm like, I gotta figure out this new routine, like what's going on with the changes and everything. So, um, one, I do still take the by prenatal vitamin cause I'm nursing my daughter still. And I do think that's helpful, but two, I really like, um, Cora products. So Miranda KES brand, um, she's a close friend of ours and her products are amazing. Like they're so great for your skin. She has this whole like Ric, um, line. That's really wonderful. So I love that feels great on your skin.

This is part of, of the sleep thing though, too. Like yeah. It all comes back to more rest. And my mom always said this, like whether we had an attitude or we were, whatever it was, she was like, you're dehydrated. Like it always came back. You were de like, if I, I was like mean or whatever, so you go drink some water and like, come back and talk to me. <laugh> and so drinking more water, um, is a reminder for myself. So yeah. Sleep, drinking, water, taking vitamins, but also having grace with the changes that your body is going through. I think, especially when, um, you know, you've created a whole human being like always have to remind myself like, Hey, your body is shifting and that's OK. <laugh>

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: Oh, is it ever? I know

Anna Malaika Tu...: <laugh>

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: Yeah. Well, Anna, this has been so delightful. I feel like we could have talked to you for several more episodes of podcasting, but we will, we will let you go. <laugh> we'll, we'll

Kate: Put the request in when your next book comes.

Doree: Exactly.

Kate: Put that out there.

Doree: Please consider us for our listeners who might want to follow along your wor with your work and read your books and articles, et cetera. Where are some places people can find you?

Anna Malaika Tu...: Yeah. My website is just my name.com. So Annas do com and hopefully that'll be written wherever we post it. Cause I knows a one <laugh> but, or you can just Google ons. Yeah. Hopefully my website will show up. And from there you can find my Instagram, which is my preferred social media. Um, I'm on Twitter, but it's not my favorite. I don't have a ton to say on there, but if that's where you wanna connect, that's fine too. <laugh>

Doree: Great. Well, thank you so much. And thank

Kate: You so

Doree: Much. Yeah. It was such a pleasure to get to talk to you.

Anna Malaika Tu...: Thank you both so much.

Kate: Okay. Well look, Doree. I think we gushed enough up top about honor. Like she's just amazing. I'm so excited for her second book and I, I can't recommend the three mothers enough. It was really great.

Doree: Well, Kate, we're now in the intention zone

Kate: Now, not to put you on the spot, but is your intention for this week to bust out dust off those roller skates and just to give them a whirl?

Doree: Well, the padding issue

Kate: That's right.

Doree: The padding issue. That's right. But maybe I will look into some pads because you know, roller skating is a hobby that I can pursue on my own. Like it doesn't, you know, I don't need to, um, I don't need to find other people to do it with, so, and I realize that that kind of goes against what I was saying before about wanting to be in community with people. But I think there's also like a limit to that.

Kate: Yeah. I mean, it's also nice to be able to do something on your own on your own time. Yes. That is also just yours. And look, that doesn't mean you can't hook up with like a roller skating crew later on.

Doree: Totally watch out world <laugh> um, if

Kate: You start doing roller Derby, I will be here for it. Oh

Doree: My God. What would my roller Derby name be?

Kate: <laugh> I will be something kind of punk rock in like nineties.

Doree: Oh yeah. All right. I'll think about that. Um, Kate, what about you?

Kate: Look, mine is, mine is picking up where I left off in the beginning is just getting my, uh, getting my steps in and just, just walking every day. I just wanna walk. Okay.

Doree: I love that. That's

Kate: It? Ah, well, Doree feels great to be back. Uh, friends as usual. Just a note that this show is Forever 35, it's hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and is produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thank you for listening.

Doree: Bye.

 
Full EpisodesForever 35 Podcast