Episode 229: Interrogating Beauty Culture with Jessica DeFino

“Most often beauty is used as a tool of conformity, control, and consumerism.”

- Jessica DeFino

Kate and Doree interview pro-skin/anti-product beauty reporter Jessica DeFino. They discuss how our obsession with beauty culture is by design, which industries have been influenced and altered by it, and why cis-gendered participation in beauty culture encourages oppressive systems. 

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Transcript

 

Kate: Hello, and welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer

Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir,

Kate: And we are not experts.

Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate: Indeed, we do Doree welcome one. And all before we dig into today's episode, a friendly reminder that you can visit our website for 35 podcast.com for links to everything we mention on the show. You can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 pod and Instagram at 35 podcast. And you can join the forever five Facebook group where the password to serums. You can shop all our favorite pros@shopmyshelfdotusslashforeverthirtyfiveanddosignupforournewsletteratforeverthirtyfivepodcast.com

Doree: Slash newsletter. And if you want to reach us, you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. And you can email us at forever 35 podcast. Gmail do. This is one of those episodes where we just had such an amazing and long conversation with our guest that we're just gonna get right into it.

Kate: Yeah. This guest has been requested many a time and we are so thrilled and honored that she agreed to come on our show. She's a brilliant beauty reporter may have heard of today's guest. Is Jessica Dino

Doree: An icon truly.

Kate: I mean, someone who challenges me to think about everything when it comes to beauty culture and skincare. Yeah. I mean, and you and I are both subscribers to her beauty newsletter at the unpublishable, which is really excellent. Highly recommend a subscribe if you are so inclined. Um, why don't we share Jessica's bio for our listeners, whether you are familiar with her work or not.

Doree: Let's do that.

Kate: Jessica Dino is a pro skin slash anti product beauty reporter dismantling beauty standards, debunking marketing myths and exploring how beauty culture impacts people physically, psychologically, and psycho spiritually. Her work quote basically gives the middle finger to the entire beauty industry and quote as Huff post once put it, and you can find her articles in such esteemed locations as the New York times Vogue women's wear daily teen Vogue. Harper's bizarre allure, the cut L Cosmo Marie Claire glam, herself co tour, man Repeller, hello, giggles business insider the Zoe report, fashionista.com and more. She also writes the afor mentioned weekly ish beauty newsletter, the unpublishable as seen in New York magazine the Sunday times and fast company. And it really is an excellent newsletter. Um, and I have to be honest, like I was very excited and also I think a little bit apprehensive to get to speak with Jessica because she really challenges my thinking about a lot of practices that I have. Ooh. Yes. Yeah. And like, I think it's really good to be pushed to question why we do these things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, um, I just appreciate her work so much and like, she was such a delight to get to chat with like truly,

Doree: Yeah. I really enjoyed our conversation. So as I said, we're just gonna get right into it. So, um, we'll be right back with Jessica. We are so excited to have you on the show today, Jessica. Welcome to F 35.

Jessica DeFino: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Doree: Yeah, this is, um, this is a dream, honestly. Uh, we're both. Yeah. We've both been such fans of yours for a while. And having you on the podcast, um, has just been something we've been talking about for a long time. So we have a lot to talk to you about. Yeah.

Kate: And our listeners often will be like, um, guest suggestion at Jessica Dino and

Doree: Lately, and we're like, we're on it. We're on it. <laugh> don't worry. Oh my gosh. That's so cool. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of crossover, um, in our, your readership, our listenership. So, um, well we do always like to start off by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. I'm wondering if part of your self-care is what you mentioned before we started recording.

Jessica DeFino: That's literally the first thing that, that came to my mind, um, is paddle boarding. I started paddle boarding two summers ago and I'm not athletic at all and I've never really been what I would consider outdoorsy mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it felt like a, and I don't know where the inspiration kind came from, but one day I was just like, I think I paddle board and I got myself an inflatable paddle board, like the cheapest one you could get. And I ended up loving it and I try to go paddle boarding a couple times a week. And it's just like so peaceful. I'm on the water, I'm in the air. I can't have my phone with me. Obviously it's completely quiet, like no distractions. And it's just like this active meditation. I, I think of it as

Doree: Is this an ocean situation?

Kate: Same question. It

Jessica DeFino: Is a, uh, it is a lagoon to a bay situation. I am, I'm lucky enough to be staying in my grandparents' old shore house in New Jersey in the, on the Jersey shore. And they had this beautiful lagoon front property through my whole childhood. We would come here, you know, summers, summer, weekends, and, um, post divorce. I moved in here while I sort of got my act together and I've really been taking advantage of being right on the water. So we're at the end of the lagoon and I take my paddle board and lagoon and the, and it's like a nice quiet, private situation, which I, and I so, so lucky to have it for now.

Doree: That sounds so nice. I'm

Jessica DeFino: Kind of just, yeah, you can come paddle boarding anytime I'm dying for company.

Doree: I would love to, I mean, we're in LA, so it would be a bit far, but I, myself on the Jersey shore, I will,

Kate: This is not what we're gonna talk about for the bulk of the conversation, but I've never been to the Jersey shore. And I feel like it's, it's this magical place that's overshadowed by like our very incorrect perception of New Jersey.

Jessica DeFino: Yeah. We're very sensitive about that here in New Jersey, because Jersey is so beautiful and just so amazing and it really does have everything. And culturally, we're just known for like, you know, mobsters and the Jersey shore. And we're so much more than that. <laugh>

Doree: Well,

Kate: Let's dig into it because we have a whole list of questions that we're dying to ask you and topics we wanna reflect on in terms of our own actions. So let's just start, if you don't mind with you sharing kind of how you got to where you are in the beauty space, because you've really established yourself as a leading critic of beauty and wellness industry. Um, and you got your start writing for the Kardashians, which I think is so interesting. So would you mind kinda taking us through how you got to this point and if there was like a light bulb moment for you that got you thinking about beauty in this really critical way?

Jessica DeFino: Yes. Um, yeah, it's been quite a journey. I'll try and make it as short as possible, but I graduated college and moved to Los Angeles and my goal was to become a wardrobe stylist in the music industry. So I started assisting there. And from there, I kind of got thrown into this, um, pipeline of celebrity lifestyle reporting. So I started out as a wardrobe stylist and then I moved up to production assistant and producer for photo shoots, which got me involved in fashion magazines, which I had always loved. So I was producing celebrity content there, like doing covers with Rihanna, for Harper's bizarre Arabia and SMA Hayek for L Mexico, and then was recruited to work on the Kardashian Jenner apps from there. Um, and I was an assistant editor on all five of the Kardashian Jenn apps in, in 2015 when they launched and was basically just like creating content for the most famous women in the world.

A lot of which was beauty content. And from there, it was the first position I had where beauty PR people were sending me products for free because obviously they wanted them featured on the Kardashians apps. And I started using all of these like expensive, fancy products that I had never had access to before. And I felt so cool and my skin, uh, was ruined by them. <laugh> I think it was a combination of just like so many products and a ton of stress from being like, you know, I mean, working for the Kardashian apps is a really high profile, high stress, 24 7 position. So the stress and the products caused something called dermatitis. I was put on steroids by my dermatologist for the dermatitis. The steroids made it worse and I ended up just, um, with something they call skin atrophy where like my skin literally AED as an organ, it couldn't function.

I couldn't use products anymore. I could barely like splash my face with water. It burned. Um, so I got to this point where I couldn't use products, I couldn't put makeup on and my skin was like peeling off of my face from a steroid withdrawal. And it was sort of this two pronged realization for me. One was just like, I have worshiped products. My whole life and products have ruined me <laugh> and two, when I'm not able to like wear makeup and feel beautiful, I feel absolutely worthless what's going on here. <laugh> and that, yeah, that was sort of my light bulb moment and led me down this road of being a, a critic of beauty and, and exploring how it shapes our lives often, um, in, in really negative ways.

Doree: Yeah. I wanted to ask about your, um, no skincare lifestyle, which is something that you've kind of advocated for. Um, I'm wondering, like, from your perspective, how has the skincare industry kind of conditioned us to think that we need like more and more, more when it comes to products?

Jessica DeFino: Mm-hmm <affirmative> I mean, I think capitalism and consumerism in general has just conditioned us to believe in solutionism, which is the idea that any product, any problem can be solved by a product mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and that gets compounded and compounded and compounded. And we get to the point where we have all of these products and a lot of them are actually causing more problems. And then, so we get more products to fix those problems caused by the original products. And we can see this across like all facets of our lives. Um, but, but especially in skincare. Um, so I always like to say when people sort of question my, my low product skincare routine, that human skin survived and thrived for millennia before prebuttal products were invented, like it was fine. It was pretty much fine <laugh> um, and there's just like no reason that human skin would evolve to need something that wouldn't be invented for millennia. Um, and then the science bears that out the skin has built in functions to self cleanse, self moisturize, self exfoliate, self protect, self heal. Um, of course, certain things get in the way, um, just like any other part of our body. Sometimes it does need support from us. Um, but I think it's really important to start with that foundational knowledge of how the skin functions and realize that products most often are not a need, but like a nice to have in some cases, if possible, if you have access

Doree: Well, and like you point out this, this obsession with solutionism, it's like you end up in this sort of cycle of chasing some perfectionism that is endlessly elusive.

Jessica DeFino: Yes. I mean, especially in skincare, I would say the main promise of skincare these days is, um, age agelessness. <laugh>, anti-aging this idea that you can age backwards or that, um, your age will never show on your face. And that's just an impossible, ideal. It's never going to happen. Um, it's a really convenient battle cry for the beauty industry because it is an unachievable goal. And once, once they get you to believe that anti-aging is possible in some small way, they have you hooked for life because of course it's not possible and there will always be another product to try another procedure to try. This is like the perfect standard to get you buying for life. It makes you consumed by beauty and consuming beauty products, um, forever.

Kate: Sorry, that's just, you just summed me up in a nutshell.

Jessica DeFino: <laugh> I mean, it's all of us, and I think that's important to note too, is like, um, I'm a critic of beauty, but I am not immune to beauty marketing, and I feel the pressure all of the time. And it's a very conscious effort on my part to like deconstruct the marketing that I am receiving and, and at, you know, as a way of being mindful as a way of taking care of myself and saying, okay, this is not real. This promise doesn't exist. There's no reason for you to buy this product. You don't have to do this, but I feel it, you know, just the same

Kate: It's essentially like skincare atheism almost

Jessica DeFino: Ooh, or

Doree: I Dtic.

Kate: Thank you. Do yes. Thank you. <laugh>

Doree: Well, I just wanted to touch on what you brought up about antiaging, because wrote a really great newsletter about Kim Kardashian's new skincare line, um, where you kind of deconstructed her comment that she would consider eating poop every day to potentially look younger and pointed out that she's working with Joanna check, um, on her skincare line. And that Joanna like had this comment about not using the term antiaging. And I feel like now there's like all these kind of mental gymnastics, this like very kind of funny needle that people are trying to thread with, like not using the term antiaging, but like promoting things that are antiaging <laugh>

Jessica DeFino: Exactly. I mean, it doesn't, it shouldn't surprise anyone coming from the beauty industry because the beauty industry is all about the surface. And that is what we are seeing with some of these, um, very surface level changes to the industry. You know, for instance, antiaging is like this taboo. You can't say the words antiaging, but you can still promote antiaging products and anti-aging ideology and, and, and communicate this idea that like youth is beauty and you must be youthful and ageless in order to be worthy. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, we just use different language to communicate it now. So things like pro aging or aging gracefully, or, um, preserve aging is a big one. Oh, aging, all of these mean the same thing. And that is like to look young is to be beautiful and to look old is to be worthless. Um, and I think, yeah, that Kim Kardashian comment that she would eat poop to look younger is such a great example of the hold that this, this ideal of youth as beauty has on us. Like so many people, I don't mean to single out Kim Kardashian, but she's very famous and she said it, but I think a lot of people would agree. I think there are millions of people out there who would be like, well, yeah, if it's gonna make me look younger, I'll eat my own. <laugh>, that's what the beauty

Doree: Industry does.

Jessica DeFino: Like, I don't think that's that crazy of a claim. I are that uncommon of a claim rather. Um, I'm, I'm glad she said it because it gives us a chance to point this out and like, look within and say, where do I agree with this actually? And what can I do to start divesting from this ideology?

Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay. We're back.

Kate: Can we dig in a little bit to the whole idea of clean green beauty non-toxic beauty products mm-hmm <affirmative> and how that is ultimately also, essentially just marketing, but it also creates this mindset of solutionism of like, I must find the purest product so that I'm not consuming talks. I mean, how, how does that right? Where is the science and where is the marketing line in that conversation?

Jessica DeFino: It's really interesting. And I actually think that the ethos behind a lot of clean beauty rhetoric, um, comes from a kernel of truth. It is true that there are beauty products that are not great for our health. It is true that there are a ton of beauty products that are not good for the environment at all. There are ingredients that we should not be introducing into our ecosystems, our bodies, or onto our skin. Um, there are a lot of problems with formulation in the conventional beauty space that said, <laugh> that again, the solution is never going to be a different product. And I, I really used to support a lot of clean beauty, a lot of clean beauty brands that was sort of my space in the industry when I first started out. Um, and then one day I had this realization that even, you know, quote unquote nontoxic beauty brands, we're promoting these really toxic beauty standards in a really toxic form of consumerism. And to me that is more important than going after individual ingredients is exploring the toxic ideas underneath the product. What ideals are they selling you? What, um, materials are they selling you? What, uh, what are they, you know, it, it's really not a solution to the real problem. It's a semi solution to a problem that still perpetuates terrible beauty ideals and, um, planet killing consumerism.

Doree: That reminds me of what you've said about how skincare culture is like dewy diet culture.

Jessica DeFino: Yeah. Yeah. That's my so good. That is my, my current, uh, battle cry, I guess you could call it because I feel like we have come so far with understanding diet culture yeah. As this, um, toxic force in the world that does not have our best interests at heart and is fueled by, um, corporate greed and control and, um, and standards that are not rooted in physical reality. Uh, and the beauty industry is the same beauty culture is the same. It's just usually directed, um, above the neck. And for some reason, um, even like the strongest anti-D diet culture supporters will abandon their, their beliefs entirely when it comes to something like under eye bags or crow's feet, um, or like a sagging neck <laugh>. And I really want people to understand that, like, you can pretty much insert the word beauty for diet in any discussion of diet culture, and it will cross over. And I really, really hope that we can start to like, collectively see that, um, sooner rather than later.

Doree: Yeah. How, how is the medical establishment kind of complicit in

Kate: Good question.

Jessica DeFino: Yeah, that is a great way to draw, um, a beauty culture to diet culture parallel. Um, so one example I always like to bring up is that recently there has been a lot of literature coming out about how BMI body mass index for so long was used as this marker of health it's influenced insurance policies. It's influenced, um, medical studies, it's influenced how doctors are giving individual patients care. It's it's influenced how, um, how collectively we are getting a lower standard of medical care because through BMI and similar, um, studies, beauty standards being thin have been subsumed into medical care. And so, you know, there are stories about fat patients going to doctors and, and saying something is wrong, something is wrong. And the doctor say lose weight, lose weight, lose weight. And, you know, at the end of a year's long battle, it turns out they had cancer.

They had P C O S um, so like real medical issues are getting ignored because of a beauty standard. Um, and it is very similar in dermatology. Um, I hear stories all of the time, for example, of patients going into their derm for the yearly, um, skin cancer screening. And while they're there, the dermatologist will be like, um, have you considered Botox? You're, you know, you're in your thirties now, what about filler? Uh, I offer all of these services and it's sort of this, it warps your mind because here is a medical provider who is screaming you for cancer, and also saying, um, get Botox and get lip filler. And here are some other procedures I can perform for you. And it starts to feel like these things are part of being healthy. These things are care. Um, and they're really not, um, they're beauty standards. Um, and it even goes for, you know, for example, my experience with steroids, um, steroids are really dangerous. They can be effective at eliminating symptoms, skin symptoms for eczema, for dermatitis, for example, they'll get rid of, you know, what it looks like for two weeks, but they don't address the underlying cause at all. And so often that is what we see in dermatology, the mainstream solutions, retinoids steroids, um, Acutane address the surface level symptom at the expense of the root level. Cause, um, and we're missing out on really important health cues.

Kate: I, I can't remember where in your work I was reading this, but you, you talk about the importance of mental health and emotional health, um, and how they factor into skincare. And that isn't really part of our discussion culturally. Um, what, where, where should we be focusing and, and looking and thinking about those two things and how it relates to our skin?

Jessica DeFino: Yes. Um, so one of the most mind blowing discoveries for me early on in my career of starting to, you know, give beauty standards the side eye and be like, Hey, this doesn't really make sense was I discovered all of these studies around something called the gut brain skin access. And that is this sort of internal network of neurons and nerves and, and microbial bacteria that connects our gut, um, our brain and our skin and the brain skin connection is especially strong. Um, and so there are all sorts of studies that show, for example, um, stress exacerbates, a lot of skin issues. I think this is a really, uh, mainstream idea. Most people understand that like when they're really stressed, uh, they'll pop a pimple or, um, their eczema will flare up. If you have psoriasis, if you have, um, rosacea, you'll notice these things are exacerbated during times of stress, that's the most common example of the brain skin connection.

Um, or, you know, if you're embarrassed, you blush, or if you're scared the color drains from your face brain skin, what has been completely ignored by the mainstream beauty media is that the connection goes the other way too. So we have all of these studies that show that mindfulness and meditation actually have a positive impact on your skin. So in a way, um, in a very real way, self-care that addresses your mental state is also skincare. Um, we know that meditation actually strengthens the skin barrier. It helps the skin barrier, um, seal in water so that it doesn't leak. So your skin is actually more moisturized when you are meditating and calm and, and, um, tending to your central nervous system in that way. And, you know, you hear all the time, the inner glow, um, of people who meditate, but it's actually not an inner glow. Like that's a real outer glow. Your skin barrier is stronger and holding onto water and like literally glowing from that form of self care. Um, and I would love to see that that talked about more and that highlighted more because we have so much power. Like we have so much power within us and we are constantly giving away this power to products and that hurts my soul <laugh>.

Kate: So is there a way for us to be critical about our participation, but to also participate? I, I guess, like how do you not make yourself, uh, I don't wanna use the word crazy, but how do you not kind of get overwhelmed with this idea of having to be a perfect, uh, rejector of beauty culture mm-hmm <affirmative> and I struggle with this with diet culture also. I mean, this is, this is something I find really challenging as an individual is how do we not participate in these systems? And also what do we do? And I don't know if you have the answer when we enjoy participating. Like mm-hmm, <affirmative>, to be honest, I love putting eye patches under my eyes and all that crap, but do I love it? Or am I just conditioned to believe that I love it? I, this is a

Jessica DeFino: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: So a lot of panic arising.

Jessica DeFino: I mean, I think just the fact that you're questioning it is mm-hmm <affirmative> is, uh, wonderful. And also sometimes just enough, depending on the beauty behavior that you are questioning, um, yeah, no, it's impossible to not participate in some of these systems. And that is by design. I think that is really important to keep in mind your obsession with beauty culture, your obsession with diet culture, these, um, that's the whole point of beauty culture and diet culture is to get you obsessed. So it's not some like personal failing that you want to participate or you feel you have to participate. That is exactly how the system is designed to operate and it's operating well. Um, and again, there's only so much we can do as individuals to divest from that system. Like really getting out from under the grip of beauty culture is going to involve a lot of collective action and policy change and, and changes structurally in systems like the medical systems and systems like, you know, dermatology, for example, and the beauty industry.

So you don't have to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders as an individual consumer. Um, that said, I do think once, once you, as an individual, start to understand the origins of some of these standards and start to like decondition and understand that so much of your, um, your interest in physical beauty has been conditioned. Um, you don't want to participate anymore. You start to realize how your actions do have consequences for the collective, because beauty culture is a collective experience. You can't just say it's my individual experience. Um, for example, I have, um, I've hosted like open threads on my newsletter where I encourage people to like comment and share their stories. And we talk a lot about like our, our first experiences of beauty culture, where we first got the idea that we weren't beautiful enough. We weren't good enough.

We weren't good enough. So much of it comes from family, um, and peers. So it, it, isn't always this like impossible celebrity standard, like Kim Kardashian made me feel like shit, no, it's, it's your mom actually instilled you with diet culture or your best friend was like, I'm going to get Botox and suddenly started thinking about your own wrinkles. So we, our actions do have this sort of ripple effect on the collective, um, on our peers. And I think it's really important that we recognize that, and we can hold space for the fact that we have been conditioned and we are conditioning others also with our actions. And, and there's no way to individually stop that, but, but your individual like participation or not participation does make a difference. Um, so my, I mean, my advice is just to be gentle on yourself, but also just deeply question everything that you feel compelled to do in terms of physical beauty and ask yourself why and keep asking yourself why I call it being the eternal toddler. Um, you know, oh

Doree: My God, I have a three year old. And if he is like deep in his why phase, and it just like,

Jessica DeFino: I love

Doree: Does not stop <laugh>.

Jessica DeFino: And that's how we like that is the bell of a child is like, they question things that when you are an adult, you're conditioned to just accept as this is how things are. And a kid is like, well, why is that the way things are? I mean, you know what, there's always an answer. There is always an answer and you can always go deeper. Um, and I also think it's helpful to frame a lot of these beauty behaviors as coping mechanisms and understand like the pain of existing within beauty culture is real. And that's the reason that we adopt so many of our beauty behaviors is because we're in pain, even if we can't feel that pain. Because like for instance, beauty, um, beauty culture conditions, you to dissociate at every turn you have to dissociate to endure the pain of an eyebrow wax or a bikini wax, you have to dissociate to endure, um, a Pilates class, for example. So we are conditioned to just be blind to our own pain, whether it's physical or emotional. Um, if you open yourself up to possibility that a lot of our participation in the beauty culture stems from the of beauty culture, and we can start to address those root issues and the real reasons we're in pain rather than trying to mask it with a product. I think just like that's a, just a slow, gentle, um, empowered divestment process that, that everyone can like attempt at their own speed.

Doree: Oh, I mean, yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot to like wrap my head around.

Doree: Okay, well, let's take a quick and we'll be right back. All right. We are back.

Doree: I am wondering, you know, you brought up the stuff that we've kind of internalized from our own families and Kate and I are both parents. I'm wondering how do we not pass this shit down?

Jessica DeFino: Yeah. I mean, that is a really tough question and I am not a parent. So I feel like any personal, like advice or thoughts I would have would only be partial because I've never been in that. I've never been in that, um, situation for myself. But I will say from interviewing hundreds of people and from getting thousands of emails and comments, um, the parent to child relationship is really, really, really powerful when it comes to beauty culture and diet culture. So my advice would be to like really evaluate your participation as much as you can emotionally bear to, like, if you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by stopping your participation, that's not really going to be helpful either, but if you can, you know, if it doesn't bother you to go makeup free, so your kid doesn't see you putting on makeup just to leave the house, to like get toilet paper at CVS that, you know, actually sends a powerful message.

Um, if you can avoid, you know, talking about your body in, in a negative way, um, or complimenting their body in a positive way or complimenting other people's bodies in positive ways, like sometimes the positive reinforcement of beauty culture does SU does just as much damage as the negative reinforcement. Um, so just, I mean, being conscious of your language, but also being conscious of, of your behaviors because they do, they do parrot it. There was this, um, there's this sort of trend going around on TikTok or Instagram reels recently where beauty influencers have been like turning the camera on their children, like their young children, like one year old, two year old and handing them, um, things from their makeup bag and seeing what the kid does with it, if they know how to use it. And these videos are so wild because you'll see the mom hand a mascara tube to the two year old girl and she starts going like this.

She knows what it's for. She hands, you know, the blush thing to a one year old and they start going, you know, like this, they know what it's for. Um, and it's supposed to be this really cute video trend. But to me, it's just so heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking because like we absorb that information so young and so completely, and it makes it so hard to decondition later, like, look at us, how old are we? And we're still talking about this and we have no idea why we do what we do. And it, it gets ingrained in us so young. And that is again, um, by design that's part of the system, that's how they get you. So, I mean, I think just like being mindful as mothers, like the fact that you're asking those questions is, is, is huge and like the perfect first step,

Kate: I think too, the, the idea that you brought up earlier of the fact that like, you, you can't help your participation in the system. I, I, as my kids are a little bit older and I feel that way too, that no matter what, and this has been an intention of mine since they were born, but like, no matter what I'm, this is still, it's still gonna be there. There's never, you know, like we are not, uh, perfect beings in these systems. So like it, there's always gonna be bits and pieces that come up because I think you can, it can, it can weigh on you, this, you know, worrying so much about how we're passing these things on, but there's the other thing that's terrible is that they get it from elsewhere. So even if you are, and I'm just, I'm ranting, but even if, even if you are, you know, not participating at home as best you can, they it's all picked up in so many different places that it feels impossible. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, which can feel discouraging.

Jessica DeFino: Yeah, no, you're totally right. And, and I totally get that. And that's why I'm so passionate about doing work around dismantling beauty standards and beauty culture, because it is a collective experience. And like we're going to have to collectively act to sort of counteract some of these exposures that we get from, from everyone, from the media, from politicians, from, from policies, from law enforcement, like beauty culture, ideals are, are embedded in all of these institutions. And, and so I think, I think you're totally right to point that our personal participation has its limits and there shouldn't necessarily be guilt associated with any of it. Just like, think that more as joy, like to me, the reason the beauty industry and beauty culture is so powerful is because beauty is this inherent human longing. I see it as like a spiritual thing and not in terms of being religious, but in terms of like the human spirit, the human spirit, craves, beauty, beauty, like a sunset beauty, like an ocean beauty, like we see in nature, we crave that and we need it and we deserve it.

And we are entitled to that. The problem is the beauty industry has co-opted that longing and has told us, this is what beauty is. And they've given us this purely one dimensional, physical representation that is full of all of these rules and standards and products that we have to use. Um, and so I think that our, our participation so often is like craving that sort of like soul deep, wild beauty, and being served these like physical tools that don't actually don't actually satisfy that craving. Um, and so I think my goal in like dismantling all of this is to feel the joy of true beauty and to like open people up to this, like other idea of beauty that is so much more expansive and dynamic and multidimensional, and just like full of joy. And that is what I want people to feel. So if you can come at your, your critique of beauty culture, not from a place of like negativity, but a place of just like wanting to experience joy for yourself and wanting everyone around you to experience the joy of like what actual beauty and actual self expression is. Um, it, it probably is a lot healthier in terms of like your mental wellness and your emotional wellbeing.

Kate: Are there positives? I was thinking, you know, in kind of thinking about our conversation today, especially about makeup and self expression and how influential can be, especially with young folks or exploring gender identity or gender expression. Yes. And self-expression, do you see positive aspects to beauty culture to make up makeup culture? Those

Jessica DeFino: Sorts of mm-hmm <affirmative> I don't see any positive aspects to beauty culture that would be like saying, are there positive aspects to diet culture? Okay. No. Are there positive aspects to like vegetables, you know, <laugh> and there are positive aspects to makeup, so

Kate: That is a very good comparison.

Jessica DeFino: Yeah. So, you know, it's, it's hard to say that any aspect of beauty culture is positive, but there are aspects of these individual tools that can be used in positive ways. Like any other tool you can use, um, a hammer to build a house that gives a family shelter, or you can use it to, um, brutally murder somebody <laugh>, you know, it's how you use the tool. <laugh> uh, sorry. That was like a, a bit of a crude example. Nope. It works. <laugh> in terms of makeup. Yes. I mean, makeup has been part of human expression since like the beginning of civilization. You know, we see it in Egyptian cultures. We see it in ancient African tribes in indigenous tribes and native Americans. Um, makeup was, was a communal tool. It was often used in ceremony. It was often used to, um, sort of embody or reflect the gods that they were worshiping or to symbolize their position in the community to say, this is who I am.

Um, different tribes had different makeup that they would wear as a form of like unity. And, you know, you can see that today too, like for ex example, like punk makeup or goth makeup. Um, when you wear that out in the world, you're saying, this is who I am. And it's like, uh, a signal to other people who, who can connect with that and it can bring people together. And I think that is beautiful. And I think that is necessary. And we should preserve that power, um, of beauty at all, costs that being said, that's not how beauty is primarily being used. Um, a lot of times when people come up against critique of beauty, they call out these like exceptions to the rule as a way to keep us from critiquing the rule. Um, most often today beauty is used as a tool of conformity, complacency, and consumerism, and we have to critique those uses in order to preserve the power of these other uses.

Um, and like in terms of self-expression, I always like to say, um, you know, if, if we are really expressing ourselves through makeup, would all of us be, um, using concealer, would all of us be expressing ourselves through a cat eye and lipstick? Like, we're talking about this self, this is like an almost infinite experience of like energy and, and your spirit and whatever. And it's like, all, all of ourselves wanted a smokey eye really. <laugh> like, <laugh>, it's just like, it's just not self-expression. Um, and then in terms of gender identity, I think it's so important to preserve a lot of these tools for that. Cause while also understanding that our participation as CIS women can reinforce these cultural norms and make it harder for the trans community for non-binary folks to divest, because we are reinforcing these gender ideals that aren't actually achievable for CIS women either.

So when we are raising the bar, when we are creating this, um, image of femininity that requires product intervention, surgical intervention, um, injectable intervention, if that is what femininity looks like today, and we CI women can't even achieve it without, um, investing a ton of time and effort and money. What does that say to the non-binary community? What does that say to the trans community? What does that say to people who are, um, experimenting with their gender expression, like our participation compounds, their oppression. And I really think it's on, um, CIS women and CIS white women, especially to evaluate, um, where we are upholding these oppressive systems that make it harder for, um, our brothers and sisters and siblings to, to express themselves.

Doree: I'm gonna sit with that. <laugh> thank you. Um, I, I am also curious, uh, what, if, if any, what has the response from the beauty and wellness industry been to your work?

Jessica DeFino: Um, in terms of industry, it has not been very welcoming. I like to joke that my newsletter is the beauty industry's favorite newsletter. Um, and that's part of why I started my own newsletter. You know, I was having a lot of trouble placing some of these stories that I thought were really important to tell in mainstream beauty publications. Um, and I didn't want that to stop me from telling these stories or investigating these issues. So I tried to create this platform where I could publish myself things that I thought were important to talk about. Um, but on the other hand, I have gotten so many amazing messages and emails and comments from people who are in the industry and are reevaluating their role and are reevaluating, you know, how they produce, like, are they producing their products ethically? Are they being, um, mindful of their environmental impact? Um, what are they saying in terms of their marketing language? Are they reinforcing horrible beauty standards? Are they actually promoting like skin health and skincare? Um, and every time I get an email from, from someone within the industry who is reevaluating, what they're doing makes all

Doree: It's influencer or a publication that is like getting it right.

Jessica DeFino: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think there are so many people getting it right in so many little ways. And part, part of what I think the issue is in beauty is that as consumers and we have become so spoiled, we want everything from every brand. We want everything to be cruelty free and vegan and, um, eco-friendly but also really effective and get completely rid of any pimples or wrinkles that I have. Um, it also has to be in, in post-consumer recycled plastic or glass. Um, and it can't have too much, uh, you know, peanuts in the shipping container when it, when it comes like we really are demanding so much of brands without understanding like the logistics of the industry, like implementing some of these changes, changes that I advocate for is really hard. That's why, like, I kind of advocate for like, don't start a brand because it's really hard to do everything.

Like we don't need another brand. Um, but I think also as consumers, like, we also have to become a little bit, um, less spoiled and particular in what we are asking for. Um, and so what I say, what I try to tell people when they are like, how, how can I be an ethical consumer? Um, you can't really, there's always gonna be something not super ethical. So I say pick the like two or three things that are really, really, really important to you personally, and then seek out a brand that hits those three nails right on the head. Um, for me, a big thing, if I'm buying anything skincare related is I don't want it to hurt my skin. And that's, I mean, <laugh>, that eliminates 98% of the skincare industry. So I focus on skincare brands that, um, formulate microbiome. First, if you take care of your skin microbiome, which I wrote an article for, um, uncovered her, if anybody's interested in reading that you take care of your skin microbiome and your skin barrier, you're pretty much set.

Um, so I love the brand SIM biome, and I love the brand for the biome. Um, those are, those are two of my go-tos. They also like harvest all of their ingredients ethically, which is a big one for me. Um, and I mean, I try to avoid plastic as much as possible. So those are like, those are sort some of my big things, but everyone's like big things will be different. Like if you're a vegan, vegan formulation is gonna be huge for you. Right. I personally like use honey in my routine every day. So vegan is not a requirement for me, but I like fully support people who are really passionate about that and champion that. Um, so, you know, do what you can, where you can, and don't be spoiled. <laugh>

Kate: So much for us to think about as a podcast, which sets up every episode is two people who like to talk about serums.

Jessica DeFino: Is that really? I love that.

Kate: Yeah. That's what, what do you think? Go ahead. Sorry, Jessica. Sorry, go ahead.

Jessica DeFino: No, I was just gonna say, what, what serums do you talk about? What's your favorite serum? What

Kate: Is

Jessica DeFino: That conversation <laugh>?

Kate: Well, it it's, it's both. I mean, it's interesting to hear you talk because it's both our participation and analyzing our participation. And I think we mm-hmm, <affirmative> we look at the ways in which we participate in beauty culture, but I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I'm an active participant, especially like I'm a product ho I <laugh> a collector. Yes. I love to try different things. I'm constantly searching for the tool. That's gonna scratch the itch. But I think is what, what you have really, um, established is that the itch is it's not gonna be solved. And I actually intellectually, I know this, but yeah, still. Um, and I, another thing that I think is interesting is that, you know, we started this podcast because we wanted to talk like about, you know, skincare and do stuff. And then it quickly became clear that like, that really wasn't all we wanted to talk about and out, and that ticked some people off and other people I think liked that. So it's, it's interesting to kind of reflect on the conversations that we have had and how they've evolved over the last few years of doing the show.

Jessica DeFino: That's awesome. I have found that the, the beauty community is, um, very passionate and that can like manifest in like loving you so much or just completely turning on you. So it was interest. It's interesting to hear that some people liked your expansion and some people were not into it because I feel like I get that same, like split very passionate feedback all the time. People either love my message or they unsubscribe after one email. And they're like, you're horrible. You're so negative.

Doree: Well, this has been eyeopening, just so delightful to get to dig into these topics with you, Jess. Um, I'm so glad you agreed to come on our

Kate: Show. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Jessica DeFino: Glad you had me. Sorry. If I get a little worked up by just like, no, I go off on these tangents and then I'm like, was that, was that rude? Was that too much? Do I need

Kate: To, no, no. I need

Jessica DeFino: A little bit,

Kate: Not at all. It's so thoughtful. And I feel like you've really given us a lot to chew on and think about, um, it's just been so helpful to get to speak to you. I know. And so your newsletter is fantastic. We are both subscribers and I know we have a lot of members of our listenership who subscribe it if they haven't. That's awesome. Definitely, definitely check out Jessica's newsletter it's it will push you to think

Doree: <laugh>. Um, but speaking of where can people subscribe and follow along with your work?

Jessica DeFino: Mm-hmm <affirmative> I am completely, almost completely off of Instagram these days, which has been a big project for me. So

Kate: Congratulations.

Jessica DeFino: Thank you. It feels so good. Um, so the newsletter is definitely the best way to keep up with my work and it's called the unpublishable. So you can Google the unpublishable or the URL is Jessica. So I love chatting with you

Doree: Like of those people where she really like shifts your whole perspective on things.

Kate: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think she's probably one of the most important people I read and follow currently online in terms of, you know, pushing me to think challenging what I hold is true. Um, and doing so in like a very, very thoughtful and measured and effective

Doree: Way. Totally. Yes.

Kate: You know, and I, I really appreciate, I was so into our conversation and you know, I'm gonna talk about this in another episode, but it really ha has led me to kind of rethink a lot of my consumption and skincare practices now, will I change all those things? T

Doree: B D mm-hmm <affirmative>,

Kate: But I mean, truly in the wake of our conversation with her, I really, um, I don't know. It, it really led me to think about a lot of, a lot of practices in my life and a lot of beliefs I held. And so I just really value that conversation.

Doree: Yeah, I do too. I'm so glad we got to talk to her. Yeah. All right. Well, Kate, that brings us to the end of our show and let's do it. I, I do just wanna remind everyone that forever 35 is hosted and produced by me do Shrek and you Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Huno. Sammy Reid is our project manager, our network partners. Acast and we'll talk to you all again soon. Bye

Kate: Bye.

 
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