Episode 211: Talking Momfluencers with Kathryn Jezer-Morton
“We’re deeply vulnerable to the vagaries of existence, and it affects all of us. And we don’t see that in this [momfluencer] space at all.”
- Kathryn Jezer-Morton
Kate and Doree imagine a Doree’s Spa Hotel scenario complete with massages, fancy rooms, and facials. Then, momfluencer scholar Kathryn Jezer-Morton joins the podcast to talk about her self-care practice of nighttime long-distance skiing, what growing up in a commune has brought to how she raises her family, and why the neutral interiors influencers push on their followers create an unattainable lifestyle.
Photo Credit: Orion Miles
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Transcript
Kate Spencer: Hello everybody. And welcome to this amazing podcast called forever 35. It's a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. And I am Kate Spencer
Doree Shafrir: And I am Shafrir
Kate Spencer: And we are not experts.
Doree Shafrir: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate Spencer: Indeed, we are Dory. And if you would like to visit our website, where we track the serums and other things wetalk about on every episode you can visit forever 35 podcast.com for links for transcripts, you can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 pod Instagram at forever 35 podcast, and you can join the forever 35 Facebook group where the password to serums.
Doree Shafrir: And just a reminder, you can sign up for the newsletter@foreverthirtyfivepodcast.com slash newsletter. I also just wanna mention that we are running like a special on classified ads this month, where if you buy two, you get one free and you don't have to run them like three in a row. Like you could run one now, one in July and one in December, for example. Um, so if you're interested in that email, Sam@foreverthirtyfive podcast.com.
Kate Spencer: Excellent Dory.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah, I know. Pretty exciting. Um, also, if you want to reach us call or text us at (781) 591-0390. Email us@foreverthirtyfivepodcastatgemail.com. There's just like a lot of ways to get in touch.
Kate Spencer: We love to hear from you.
Doree Shafrir: We really do. Um, and just in case anyone was wondering, I dropped the eggplant stamp off at the Spencer's house today.
Kate Spencer: Contact has been made.
Doree Shafrir: Contact has been made eggplant emoji contact has been made.
Kate Spencer: It's been made. I'm going to be signing a bunch of books. If that was in there and requested, I will stamp away. I'm also getting to do some book signings this week. And so if there are people there who request it, I'm ready to stamp.
Doree Shafrir: Okay. Did you get stamp? Did you get an ink? PAD
Kate Spencer: I did. I haven't opened it yet, but I did order a purple egg. A purple okay. Ink pad.
Doree Shafrir: I, I was, I was concerned about this.
Kate Spencer: I mean, look, the things on my to-do list are so strange right now, order big purple stamp pad. Like what is, what
Doree Shafrir: Get eggplant stamp from Dory? Yeah,
Kate Spencer: Truly. That's truly on my to do list. Meanwhile, you know, Anthony, who I think is coming to one of my signing events, he doesn't know about like our secret world over here in forever 35. Oh. So he's in for real treat when I start stamping. Oh,
Doree Shafrir: Wow. Yeah. Oh, you know, I'm just now thinking of something that I should have gotten you to celebrate your book release and, and it's too late.
Kate Spencer: Eggplant Parmesan.
Doree Shafrir: Well, no. Do you know that? Um, what's it called? Called print all over me.
Kate Spencer: Like the little funny socks. Yeah,
Doree Shafrir: Prints. So there's this company called print all over me and they make custom printed clothes and you can like upload any kind of image and they will make like anything out of it. And I really missed my chance of making you like an eggplant sweatshirt, or even like a sweatshirt with your book cover on it. Oh
Kate Spencer: Gosh,
Doree Shafrir: I really dropped the ball here.
Kate Spencer: No you didn't because let's be honest. Would I be comfortable going out in public, in a shirt with eggplant emojis on it? I don't think I would.
Doree Shafrir: Oh My God. I'm just picturing that
Kate Spencer: Like Me going,
Doree Shafrir: like taking your, taking your kids to school.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. Hey parents.
Doree Shafrir: Oh my God. But how funny would it be if you like actually play dumb and you were like,
Kate Spencer: And I was just like, I love eggplant.
Doree Shafrir: I love eggplant, but it's like my favorite food. So I got this sweatshirt.
Kate Spencer: The truth Is I do love eggplant.
Doree Shafrir: There you go. It's not even a
Kate Spencer: Lie. No. My grandfather grew eggplant and like, I always have enjoyed eating eggplant. He had a little eggplant side garden in his big garden. Wow.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah, he was ahead of his time.
Kate Spencer: You know what? Grampy ed knew something was coming in the eggplant world. He had a, he had an inkling and eggplant. Parmesans one of my favorite foods. So I truly do love the night shade, but it would be very awkward. It would be awkward if I rolled up to like a PTA meeting in my eggplant sweatshirt.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. I was just thinking we could, we could rewrite that song. You know, I love the, a nightlife As like a night shade. Sorry.
Kate Spencer: I love a night shade. Oh
Doree Shafrir: My God. We could write A whole. We could, we, we could write anode to eggplant.
Kate Spencer: Well, there are other vegetables included in the night shape family. So
Doree Shafrir: I'm aware. I'm aware.
Kate Spencer: I love a night shade.
Doree Shafrir: Oh my gosh. Think about it. Kate. Think about it.
Kate Spencer: The hit parody song from two 40 something podcast. I
Doree Shafrir: Mean we're basically weird Al over here. That's
Kate Spencer: Right. We're weird.
Doree Shafrir: We are weird. We're weird. Cat. And dor.
Kate Spencer: Oh,
Doree Shafrir: Look for our upcoming album.
Kate Spencer: Oh my God. Our parody album,
Doree Shafrir: our Parody album on apple music.
Kate Spencer: It Could be a hit, you know what we could release. I love the night shades on a TikTok and who knows? I feel like that could go viral.
Doree Shafrir: it Could go mega V as we used to say at Buzzfeed
Kate Spencer: Didn't, you didn't say
Doree Shafrir: That it was like kind of tongue in cheek. Okay. Okay. Okay. You know? Um, yeah, no, it was not like serious.
Kate Spencer: Hey, I just wanna congratulate you on taking care of your breasts.
Doree Shafrir: Oh, thanks. Kate.
Kate Spencer: You Mammoed.
Doree Shafrir: I Mammoed.
Kate Spencer: That's Great.
Doree Shafrir: I Mammoed. Everything was normal. I just got the results. I also did. I did an ultrasound at the same time because I have dense breast tissue and they would've made me come back for the ultrasound. So now I just schedule them both for the same day.
Kate Spencer: oh That's really smart.
Doree Shafrir: And then you just get it, like all taken care of
Kate Spencer: Now, do you do the trick where at the appointment you schedule a next year's appointment. So it's already in your calendar.
Doree Shafrir: I Do.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. That is such a great practice. I have to say.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do that at most places. I would say like most doctors or services. Um, like I try to schedule my next haircut kind of thing.
Kate Spencer: Oh
Doree Shafrir: Yeah.
Kate Spencer: I never do this, but I did just get a facial and I scheduled the next one.
Doree Shafrir: It's great.
Kate Spencer: I mean, I should be doing this at doctor's Appointments.
Doree Shafrir: I mean, the only problem with scheduling things like a year out is like things often change. Um, but at least then you have something on the calendar and you can usually shift it and you're start like you have the appointment. So yes I did. Um, although when I called to make the appointment, the person who answered was like, oh, you were last here in 2020, like sort of shamey. And I just didn't say anything.
Kate Spencer: This was for your mammogram.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. I just was like, Hmm.
Kate Spencer: Okay. Like,
Doree Shafrir: Okay, what's your point?
Kate Spencer: Yeah.
Doree Shafrir: Were you Like, like, Hey, there's been a global, there's been a global
Doree Shafrir: Pandemic and also like slow your role. I'm calling now to make an appointment. There's no need to get all shamey on me.
Kate Spencer: See, That really bothers me. Like I've had that. I've had, I've gone into making an appointment. Like one of the reasons I didn't book a dental appointment 'cause I was so embarrassed. It had been like three years. And then when I finally did it, I was like, I was so nervous like that you guys were gonna say something and they were like, oh no, they were, they were super nice about
Doree Shafrir: It. So my dentist was also super nice when I came back after like three years. Yeah. I, I had tried, my dentist is kind of far from my house. I really like him, but I was like, I should just find a dentist. That's closer to me. And then I went to one, I think I talked about this on the pod that I felt like was kind of scammy, like a scammy dentist.
Kate Spencer: Mm. Where they just know like whiten teeth.
Doree Shafrir: They wanna like do a million things and you're like, wait a second. Like, do I really need all this Stuff?
Kate Spencer: Yeah. I know what you mean.
Doree Shafrir: Um, and then I hadn't gone to the dentist in like a, like probably over a year, maybe more. And, and so I called my old dentist and they, they welcomed me back with open.
Kate Spencer: That's a sign of a good dentist.
Doree Shafrir: That is a sign of a good dentist. I agree.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. I mean, I do think that that kind of fear of being ashamed for not having an appointment in many years or perhaps even ever Does keep people away. And I don't like that.
Doree Shafrir: No, I know. I think my husband has this, so it's, it's really hard to overcome.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. Well hopefully the person who picked up the phone when you made your mammogram appointment is listening to this podcast.
Doree Shafrir: I made sure to slip her our business card.
Kate Spencer: Did you like, I've got just a random suggestion of a podcast episode you should listen to. Oh,
Doree Shafrir: Uh, um, yeah, so that, that was good news to get today. Also, my parents are here.
Kate Spencer: You guys are really making up for lost time. I feel like they've been visiting a lot. They're Here Like every couple of months. Right.
Doree Shafrir: They were here in, they were here like over the holidays. We went to Palm Springs together. Yeah. So that was, that was just over two months ago.
Kate Spencer: That's really nice. I'm so glad they're visiting.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. It's really nice too, because I feel like it is infinitely easier for them to visit me than for us to go visit them.
Kate Spencer: Yeah.
Doree Shafrir: Um, you know, to travel with Henry, who's a little, little easier to travel with now that he will stare at a screen for five hours, but like it's still a lot to deal with. Um, so it's, it's been very nice that they have been, you know, able to travel to us.
Kate Spencer: I'm really very happy that they can do that. That's wonderful. Also,
Doree Shafrir: Kate, I texted this to you, but my mom is reading your book
Kate Spencer: Okay, I'm so nervous about this. Now My mother-in-law texted me last night was like, I can't wait for my copy to arrive. And like, I'm so excited. I'm so honored. But I'm also like, what if it's not for them? Can they Handle it,
Doree Shafrir: well, you know, this is, I said, my mom was like, what's like, what's her book? Like, and I was like, it's a romcom. It is delightful. It is such a fun read. I love it. And she was like, she was like, will people like it? And I was like, I think they will. But if you open it up and you're hoping for like Dostoevsky, then like,
Kate Spencer: please, then you might not you're in the Right place
Doree Shafrir: you might not be Into it. But like, if you just want like a really fun, lovely, cozy read, then like yes, it is for you. And then I was like, do you wanna read it? And she was like, yeah.
Kate Spencer: Well, and like, we should establish that your mom is in a book club back home with my favorite high school teacher. Yes. Switches
Doree Shafrir: A book club of over 30 years.
Kate Spencer: Wow.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah.
Kate Spencer: I forget how we made this connection at some point. But at some point we worked out that.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah.
Kate Spencer: My Favorite teacher from high school
Doree Shafrir: Is in my mom's book club. Yes.
Kate Spencer: So I dunno if I can handle my book, getting to
Doree Shafrir: Oh yes.
Kate Spencer: my AP us history teacher.
Doree Shafrir: Should I give it to them?
Kate Spencer: I dunno.
Doree Shafrir: I mean, I bet you know what, honestly, I bet she'll buy it.
Kate Spencer: Well, that's very nice. She's such a wonderful teacher. And when I went back to my high school a few years ago, I like cried. When I got to give her a hug. She's really changed my life. I mean, she's just a fantastic teacher. That's a good teacher, man. A good teacher can change your life and a bad teacher can change your life. I mean that I've mentioned on this podcast. I talk about my teachers in therapy who like Really?
Doree Shafrir: Yeah, but you also had really great teachers
Kate Spencer: I also had great teachers,
Doree Shafrir: also Great teachers, you know, goes both ways.
Kate Spencer: It's a two way street.
Doree Shafrir: It is a two way street. Has anyone ever heard that before?
Kate Spencer: Another phrase we've made up here on this podcast?
Doree Shafrir: Oh my gosh. You know, I wonder if there are, are people who like not have been like living under a rock, but just are not familiar with sort of common idioms or phrases like that. And like, what if someone thought they made that up?
Kate Spencer: I would let them have that, you know? Yeah,
Doree Shafrir: You're Right.
Kate Spencer: I'd let them have it. You're right. If someone in your life thinks they made up a very common phrase,
Doree Shafrir: Just give them.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. I kind of just feel like, okay, you deserve it. Yeah,
Doree Shafrir: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right.
Kate Spencer: Kate, when I come to you and I'm like, Doree, have you ever heard the race to kill two birds with one stone? Just thought of it. Make sure you
Doree Shafrir: Well, look, Kate, I have to tell you a stitch and time saves nine. I, I made that up and together have to be like, we'll just
Kate Spencer: Walk away.
Doree Shafrir: Yep. Yep. Walk Away.
Kate Spencer: Smiling.
Doree Shafrir: Just walk away.
Kate Spencer: You know, in, uh, in true forever 35 Fashion I did just get a facial right before this podcast.
Doree Shafrir: Tell me me about this facial.
Kate Spencer: I just said a really lovely facial with a facialist, a friend recommended I will link to her for all my Los Angeles peeps. And it was just delightful. She was wonderful. And I did some microdermabrasion, which I really like. I mean, I, my skin is very glowy.
Doree Shafrir: It is.
Kate Spencer: And it felt so nice. I can't remember the last time I had a facial. I'm sure its was like, you know, maybe five or six months ago. I don't know. I don't know. But it just was like, oh yes, like put on some Salasolic acid, like let's cook this skin. And she was, um, she also really reiterated something that other facialists have said to me, which is that I do have dehydrated skin to maybe focus more on hydrating than on exfoliating. So, and, and she encouraged me to get back to my microcurrent device. So I might pick that. Yep. So stand up standby for my intention this week, everybody
Doree Shafrir: Interesting. You know, I just got a press thing about what I think is a microcurrent device and I was intrigued. So I will report back if I end up trying that one,
Kate Spencer: I cannot wait. I, I would be curious cuz I wanna know which one this is.
Doree Shafrir: I have really been hankering for a massage.
Kate Spencer: Well, you know, things are for better, for worse opening up and out of something you can go do right now, Support a small business too. You know, it's been a hard couple of years. Go get, go get a massage every week.
Doree Shafrir: Okay.
Kate Spencer: And you can stay in a mask. If you feel more comfortable hitting a massage, a massage does sound nice. My shoulder is real tight right now.
Doree Shafrir: It does sound really nice. I wanna go do that.
Kate Spencer: You Know, what, if we ever go away together, would you feel comfortable getting a couple's massage with me?
Doree Shafrir: No.
Kate Spencer: You wouldn't wanna like Be in a room together staring at each other.
Doree Shafrir: That would be, I will. I will. I would get, I would get individual massages in the same room. I would be fine with that. Oh
Kate Spencer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's why a couple's massages. Isn't it?
Doree Shafrir: Mm. I think a couple's massages like a little more sensual. Like I've, I've never had one, but my impression was that a couple's massage is really sort of like encouraging the connection between the, the, the couple, you know what I mean? Like between the two people and the couple
Kate Spencer: I've only had one on my honeymoon. Oh. At a Marriot in Hawaii. Okay. And there was no, there was, I don't think there was any like now touch each other. I, I feel like reality shows have really done a disservice to the couple's massage.
Doree Shafrir: So maybe I have a totally wrong impression. Well, it's the couples massage.
Kate Spencer: You watch the bachelor, the couple's massage always involves them, like straddling each other and rubbing oils on each other. But right.
Doree Shafrir: Which like, frankly, I'm not interested.
Kate Spencer: I don't wanna do that with my actual person. I'm in a couple
Doree Shafrir: With, right? Yes. Okay. So when you pitched that, I was just like,
Kate Spencer: No, no, maybe not. I more meant like, just both being in the same room on the beds together.
Doree Shafrir: Oh yeah. Okay. Sure. Okay. When are we doing this?
Kate Spencer: I don't know, but I want, when does this happen? Happen here? I dunno, but doesn't that sound nice?
Doree Shafrir: Yes.
Kate Spencer: Like just going, okay. I just,
Doree Shafrir: Oh yeah. You know what? You know what is like my sort of dream. Like if I won the lottery kind of vacation, like a true spa vacation where like, I'm getting like three treatments a day.
Kate Spencer: I'm with you. I am with you. I have looked at these places online being like, I should try, I should go to one of these. And then it's
Doree Shafrir: Like, that's so expensive. Yeah.
Kate Spencer: You click on how much it costs. And it's like years salary. Yeah.
Doree Shafrir: It's like insane. It's so expensive.
Kate Spencer: That would be such. That's the fantasy I play where I'm like, if I'm ever a celebrity that makes a lot money, I'll go to like canyon ranch or one of those places. And just..
Doree Shafrir: have you ever heard of amangiri?
Kate Spencer: No what is that?
Doree Shafrir: Like, I feel like the Kardashians go there. Sometimes it's in Utah. It's like super luxurious and beautiful. And like, but I think the rooms are like, I don't know, $2,000 a night or something like something just like so expensive that you're just like,
Kate Spencer: And the fact that's someone is there, like just putting down their credit card, going for it. Like,
Doree Shafrir: Wow. I know
Kate Spencer: must be nice to be you, uh, you know what though? Dory, you know what we could do? What is a Dory's hotel version of like Dory's spa ranch.
Doree Shafrir: I'm listening. Go on.
Kate Spencer: I'm just saying, I'm just saying
Doree Shafrir: No, take me on this journey, Kate.
Kate Spencer: No, no, no. I'm not prepared. I'm not prepared to take anybody on a journey. I'm just saying maybe, Hey,
Doree Shafrir: You got me all like excited for this
Kate Spencer: At Doree. I mean, it would all be like neutral colors. Okay. It's affordable, but very expensive feeling.
Doree Shafrir: Oh yes.
Kate Spencer: You know what I'm saying? You can't believe you're getting a deal, but you are some how. There's a,
Doree Shafrir: We like, okay, I'm I'm I'm gonna manifest this for us.
Kate Spencer: There's a really big glass jug of lemon water with a lot of ice. Oh yeah. When you walk in the front of the spa.
Doree Shafrir: Oh yeah.
Kate Spencer: You know? Yeah.
Doree Shafrir: This sounds really nice.
Kate Spencer: Someone took our bags right when we got there.
Doree Shafrir: Okay. I do have a sort of, I do have a kind of fantasy about a scenario like this that is possibly doable that I like very, uh, ha like not half-heartedly, but like I looked into it when I went away to Joshua tree a couple weeks ago, I sort of looked into this for that trip, but like, not really. And I did it so late that there was like no way it was gonna happen, but let's just say we went away to somewhere like say Joshua tree or Palm Springs,
Kate Spencer: beautiful Desert areas,
Doree Shafrir: A beautiful, a beautiful home with a pool and like an outdoor covered sort of patio. And we hire massage people to come to the house and set up their massage beds in the shade, by the pool. And they are there all day.
Kate Spencer: And we just take as many massages as we want.
Doree Shafrir: Yes. And we have a private chef.
Kate Spencer: Oh yes. Of course. Yes. And someone's gone to Costco and gotten Mini cans Pringles, which we're each just allowed to snack on is what we
Doree Shafrir: Want. And someone who looks like Chris pine right now is serving us drinks by the pool.
Kate Spencer: This is so interesting that you selected Chris pine, right now because he's making a very deliberate choice with his look.
Doree Shafrir: I am so here for it. I can't even tell you.
Kate Spencer: He's like grown at his hair. He's got a beard and like he's aging into his skin. So he's like a little leathery.
Doree Shafrir: It's like so perfect. I put this and of course
Kate Spencer: On a man everybody's like, yes, leathery face on a woman. People are like, never.
Doree Shafrir: Well, he also has those like piercing blue eyes.
Kate Spencer: His hair is kind of gray,
Doree Shafrir: The hair, his and the beard is gray. And he's the clothes he's wearing right now. are like next level. I'm just like, so into it. I put, I put two pictures of him in my newsletter today because I was just like, please behold hipster, Zaddy, Chris pine
Kate Spencer: Hipster. Wow. I mean, yeah, it's hot. It's hot. I'm into it too.
Doree Shafrir: So I think he would be there shirtless serving us drinks by the pool.
Kate Spencer: He's kind of like a baby. Brad pit is kind of what he looks like right now. And I prefer Brad. I prefer a Brad pit, but, but I'm not against
Doree Shafrir: This know at this point, Brad Pitt has so much baggage that like, I can't even,
Kate Spencer: oh, but doree. That's like, don't you wanna go in and fix? That's where, that's what it gets me every time anyone who's got that baggage. I'm like, I'll be the one.
Doree Shafrir: I can't. No, I can't. I can't take that on. It's too much. Can't take Brad pit on.
Kate Spencer: Meanwhile, Doree. Sorry. He tried. But Doree said no, thanks
Doree Shafrir: Boy. Well, Kate, even though this wasn't like a full on do's hotel, you did lead me down a really nice path.
Kate Spencer: Can I just make another, like, just add another Fanta, fantasy. This going back to our couple's massage. Yes. What if you, we were getting massaged by hipster, Zaddy, Chris pine. And I was getting massaged by like, like a, a R P old man, Brad pit.
Doree Shafrir: I think that honestly, I think it would be like too sensual for me.
Kate Spencer: Could you imagine
Doree Shafrir: Like it would, I would not be able to handle it. That's like I could have him serving me drinks, but him giving me a massage, I think might like
Kate Spencer: It might be Too much.
Doree Shafrir: I don't know what would happen. Yeah. Okay. So I, I, I, your proposal and I, I have to just,
Kate Spencer: You need me to reign it in. You need me to reign it in.
Doree Shafrir: I need to rein it in just, just, just an IOTa, just a tad.
Kate Spencer: Okay. But I I'm going to stick With Brad.
Doree Shafrir: I really like where your head's at.
Kate Spencer: Thank You. I think we can continue this exploration and it probably none of it will probably come true, but we can try.
Doree Shafrir: I mean, we don't know that that's true. We don't know that. Kate completely switching gears. We had the most fascinating conversation with our guests today. Katherine Jezer-Morton. She is just this like amazing genius who studies momfluencers.
Kate Spencer: She's an academic. Yeah. And she has gone deep in the world, the social media world that really quite frankly touches us all, whether we are moms or not.
Doree Shafrir: Totally. So she's based in Montreal. She writes about parenting technology, city life and lots other subjects that excite her. And she is a PhD candidate in sociology at Concordia university as of September, 2019. She's an a, B D, which means she has finished all her coursework. She just has to write her dissertation. So good job, Katherine. Um, she is researching the transition that mommy blogs have undergone since 2012 from confessional texts to monetized personal brand platforms in particular, she's interested in how online platforms have created affordances that have allowed for previously untold accounts of motherhood to become socially significant.
Kate Spencer: Mm oh
Doree Shafrir: Yes. I, I mean, we just really got into it.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. It was, was, it was really interesting. Also she has an amazing self-care practice.
Doree Shafrir: Yes, yes she does
Kate Spencer: That. We've never talked about on the podcast before,
Doree Shafrir: So no, we have not. No,
Kate Spencer: No, we haven't.
Doree Shafrir: No, we haven't. Um, and she, she's a really great newsletter called mothers under the influence, um, that I highly recommend. So without further ado here is Katherine. Well, we are so excited to be talking to you today. Katherine. Welcome to forever 35.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Thank you so much for having me.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. This is, uh, Kate and I are both like chomping at the bit to ask you a lot of questions,
Kate Spencer: We've got Questions. You cover some of our favorite stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Well, I'm glad that I'm not the only one that's as kind of obsessed and fixated with my area, cuz it, it it's. I feel like it's been so nice. A lot of people have had questions and so I feel less alone when I started doing this research, I felt a little bit like I was an obsessive and no one else cared. Mm.
Kate Spencer: Yeah.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: And it turns out that I was wrong.
Doree Shafrir: I mean, isn't that also kind of a function of just like being in academia, right? Like you, you can feel so like siloed, but I don't know. Yeah. Is that your experience?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Totally. And it's also just like where, or you're doing research. Um, so just, it just so happened that at the university that I'm at, which is wonderful and I adore it, but there was no one else that I knew that was doing this kind of thing. And people were always like, oh, interesting. And I was like, I feel like you Don't really think this is a real thing. Right.
Doree Shafrir: Totally. Well, we think it's a real thing. Um, and yeah, I'm just like thrilled that I, I think I must have first come across your work on Twitter. So I'm glad that you decided to kind of share it with the wider non-academic world. Um, well, as you probably know, we do like to start off our conversations with guests, by asking about a self-care practice that they have. Um, so what is something that you are doing these days, uh, that you would consider self-care?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: So, yeah, I mean, I think if I were speaking to you in the summer, I would be like a totally different person because I live in Montreal and the winters here are like really serious. And, and so like people who live here have like two lives, we have like a winter life and a summer life. And like we're kind of different people. I, I sort of think of myself that way. Um, so like this past winter, you know, it's been a really ,with COVID. Um, we had like really intense restrictions here for the past two years. And so there was a lot of like, okay, how are we gonna, what are we gonna do to adjust? And it's so cold in the winter that like outdoor hangs were challenging, right? Yeah. Yeah. And there was no, like, exercise was hard, but Montreal's like a real winter city. Um, and if you come here in the winter, like you really notice people are out and about, so I've gotten pretty into cross country skiing at night in the dark. Ooh, Ooh. There's a big, there's a
Kate Spencer: Sorry boy. OK.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: There's a mountain in the middle of the city. That's really like, not big at all, but it's a big park. Like it was, it's like a Fred law Olmstead park with trails going up at and, um, it's great cross country skiing and I live pretty close to it. And so basically I started going up at night as like just a way to leave the house. Like, you know, in like deep COVID it would be like 8:00 PM. And that would be this time where you're like, this life is bad. Like this is or is not good. And so that at that hour I started leaving, um, and going up onto the mountain and skiing, um, and just going up to the top or going around the top and I would sometimes go with a friend. Um, I had like a few women buddies that would join me and it's really cool to be at night because the light of the city reflects off the snow.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: So you don't need like a headlamp, but it's also like kind of intense because you are a little bit blind and like, you don't have depth perception. You're like going down these Hills kind of suspended in space. And it's like a physically very amazing feeling as an adult to feel like a little bit like, oh my God. Um, but like also not really be in danger cuz you're not really going that fast. So, and then afterwards, like we might drink some whiskey by the car before leaving and going home. Like if I was with a friend. So it was like a little social thing that I started doing pretty regularly. Hmm. Um, and it was also the way that I got a little exercise and like alone time, just like time away from my family and my phone. Um, so that has been really, really important to me. Um, and I'm actually like as much as I can't wait for it to be warm, I'm I'm gonna miss it when it's spring.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. What, uh, that, do you have a physical activity that you think replaces it as the weather warms up?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Not really. Mm. Like I go to the gym cuz gyms were closed forever. So yeah. Now the gyms are open again and I'm like, I guess I'm just gonna go back to the gym, which is like, not as romantic or interesting or like a journey of the soul, the way that nighttime cross country skiing has been sometimes. So yeah. No, I don't. I, it was like my special winter thing.
Doree Shafrir: It's so it's so funny you bring this up because Kate and I were just having this conversation about how I've like started doing all these different social activities because of the pandemic. Like I started playing tennis again and, and I now play a monthly Majong game. Like all these things that I never did before, because it was like, oh, fuck it's a pandemic. Like what are we supposed to do? Like, and so it's so interesting that you also kind of found this thing that came to like bring you a lot of joy. Um, but sort of came out of like this sort, really horrible thing that has happened to us as humanity.
Kate Spencer: Yeah,
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Totally. I mean, that, that is really the way it's been and you know, I've, cross-country skied for forever and I used to go before the pandemic, but it never felt as urgent. And then it, I started inviting friends for these night skis and it became like ritualized and it really took on a different social, uh, meaning. So, yeah, for sure.
Kate Spencer: I think, I think we also just need to highlight cross country skiing is like one of the most challenging cardiovascular activities one can do. I mean, I, like, I can make it five minutes and I am sweating buckets. So do you, have you noticed a change in your, in your strength or your stamina from doing this?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: You know, I'll say like, it can be really challenging, but like, you know, like I don't, we don't like go fast or anything. Like it's pretty mellow. Like we're not like I'm like having a conversation with a friend like while. So we're like definitely not trying to get out of breath. You know, we, we pause like, oh wait, I need to like keep talking. So I can't be Paning um, I would say like my arms, like this, the, this area, my lower upper arms really experienced pain and then, you know, strengthening because you're polling like yeah. Relentlessly, um, yeah, it's, it's a pretty good workout. And, but it is also like something like tennis where they say you can do it into old age cuz it's like kind of easy on your joints. Mm. Um, so like I don't find that it is, doesn't like, make me feel like, oh, I've been worked, you know, like, Yeah.
Doree Shafrir: Well, it sounds great. Um, but let's talk a little bit about your work in the momfluencer sphere. Um, one thing that youe out in a recent newsletter of yours, uh, which I love, I just love your newsletter. And you recently wrote among the mom influencers what's taken for granted behind every post is an idea that families can and should expect ongoing forward progress in all areas, upward class mobility, personal growth, adventure and opportunities. So let let's talk about this
Kate Spencer: Oh Boy.
Doree Shafrir: Um, I know where to begin. Um, well what, what is kind of generally problematic about this and why is it something that followers slash audiences have kind of come to expect from mom influencer? Can I
Kate Spencer: Also just, this, this might be presumptuous, but what is like, what is a influencer in case there's one person out there who doesn't know or if not familiar with the term?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Okay. So mom influencers are, is, are anyone. And they are, you know, CIS women. Um, it's very, it's very cis gendered. We're talking here, um, who make money from their social media representations of their family lives. So it could be on Instagram. It could be on YouTube, it could be on TikTok, but, um, as long as I consider you a influencer, if you're earning an income from your content, um, yeah. I, and so to your question, Doree, you know, I think what's problematic about the, kind of the teleology of progress, the way it's been in embedded in family life, uh, among these mom influencers is that I think as followers, we don't notice it. Um, it becomes something that, because it's unspoken, like, no one's saying like there are these rules and we have to follow them. Right. Okay. Now we're gonna do that. These are totally unspoken structures that I think the audience looks at.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: And without having them defined for us, we see them and, and we see them through like, you know, oh, we just, you know, we're moving into a new house. We're, we're renovating, we're doing, they're constantly revealing new renovations. Right. Obviously having more children, um, you know, introducing new, exciting ventures, it feels like these families are just always have a great year, year after year after year. Um, and like most of us don't live that way. Like we don't experience life that way. And that's because it's not normal. Right. It's really, it's not the way that People have Ever lived in history. Right. Like most families and, and most individuals like, you know, you have long periods of time where like maybe nothing changes or maybe like things get kind of not great and you're kind of in a trough or maybe things get really bad. Like, you know, life is so up and down. And that reality, which is like, you know, essential to like, understanding like what it is to be human, that like, we are deeply vulnerable to like the kind of vagaries of existence. And it affects all of us. Like we don't see that in this space very often. Um, or at all. And so I think that it can really mess. I'm not saying that like, audience members are like too dumb to realize that it's not real life. We know that we're looking at like something that is staged.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Like, you know, we're all very savvy consumers of media at this point, but still like, it gets into like the back of your mind, you know, like it's, these are kind of subliminal, messages of progress is inevitable. Or like, you know, progress is just what happens to you, if you are awesome and have like a great work ethic. And like, I know people that work their asses off and like, you know, their lives are, they're just trying to hang on. Like, They're just trying to keep what they have. And that's what, you know, most people, I think, experience their lives that way, where it's like, just trying to keep it so that everything stays basically not utter chaos. Yeah. And yeah. So I just think it it's, um, for a lot of reasons to do with like our economic selves, it's, it's a really unrealistic expectation of what life can be.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. It also made me my, a friend of mine, um, Elizabeth Olson, who was recently on this pod pointed out to me recently that there's a, a design blogger. She follows, who's sort of like in the nexus of like mom influencer and design influencer. Um, and I shouldn't say, I, I guess, blogger, but she's mostly on Instagram. Um, but she pointed out that this woman is just constantly redecorating her house. So, or re or renovating, like, so she'll finish her kitchen and then she'll be like, I'm changing the countertops, I'm changing the cabinets and it, and it's like this almost like pathological need to constantly have something new and, and feel like it's improving. Quote unquote.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yeah. And I think that we then can very easily translate this improvement of the environment into this like requirement to improve the self. Yeah. And you know, this is a self care podcast. Like, I feel like we, you guys are really interested in like ways of yourself feel better. Right. And like making your life easier. Like these are all things that I think we're all super interested in, like getting, knowing more about. But I think that the dangerous thing is, is this idea of like, you're, you just need to keep getting better and better and better and better every year, every, every year. And like, that's the logic of capitalism, right? Like the phone has to get better every generation, otherwise the competitor is going to, you know, Samsung's gonna make a phone, that's gonna, you know, take the market share away. Like, that makes sense for the way that products work, but like, we're not products, you know? And so like this idea of continuous improvement does not, has no business having anything to do with ourselves. And yet, like, we, I think we all experience its influence. Like I definitely do. I mean, just because I read and think about this stuff all the time. It doesn't mean that I like don't feel that deeply inside myself. You know,
Kate Spencer: I, it's funny, you just, you kind of mentioned this, uh, performative upward mobility. One of the mom influencers, I follow she and her husband just bought a, a new house in Utah and they're leaving Hawaii and heading back to Utah. And like, and, and that it's, that is exactly what is happening on this one account that I'm very invested in. They're like 15 years younger than me. And I'm still like, oh, I've gotta, like, I can and feel the impact of that as a, just an observer over here in California. It's so it's just a, oh boy resonates with my own habits. It's I also, I'm curious, like this thing that we do that makes us feel good is also kind of harmful, right. Like, cuz it does feel good to fixate on let's say mom influencers or any kind of influencer, but ultimately it's making us feel like crap, right? Like it's, it's not, the cycle is not positive.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yeah. I mean, I, I don't, I can't speak for the audience because I actually don't research the audience. Like I've never interviewed audience members and been like, talk to me about what makes, how this makes you feel. I really just I'm focused on the moms themself. Um, and I could say that I don't think that any of this is that good for the moms. Yeah. Like the influencers, like that's my perspective is like, this is such hard work. Um, I don't begrudge them like creating these representations that suck for us. Like I actually don't blame them for that. I think it's, they they've become caught up in something that like is completely beyond their control. Um, or not completely, but like pretty badly beyond their control. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think that like, because social media be because Instagram and TikTok, which is kind of mainly what I'm talking about is, you know, set up for engagement, um, and you know, to, to reward maximum engagement and reward like these very specific types of engagement.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yeah. There's a certain kind of content that's always gonna do well. And it's the content that makes us feel weird. And often it's like, you know, really specific body types and like bikinis and it's, it's so kind of basic that these are the types of pictures that do well. And so we're served these things. Yeah. It, it, it's not great for us, but at the same time, like I'm not someone who's gonna come on here and be like, we should all like un install Instagram, like, right. I feel like, you know, we're doing it. It's, it's tough. Like it's, we're out here slogging through our, our feeds. And I kind of feel like we're all kind of in the mud together and the best we can do is like understand it better. Because, and that's the only way that we can maybe cope better with it. Cuz I don't think that like exit is an option. Like I think we're just, we're stuck with what we have.
Kate Spencer: Ooh,
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Sorry guys. A bummer.
Kate Spencer: No, you know what? That actually makes me feel better because I do feel like the only solution we're ever offered when social media is arts to feel too much or impact us negatively is like, just get off of it. And it's like, that is like, I cannot get off of Instagram because of my work. Like I have to be on Instagram because of the work I do. It's a part of it. So there has to be a, a middle solution because you know, also we don't wanna get on it. It's a way of seeing our friends and our family. So excuse me also, we don't wanna get off of it. So I appreciate that you're offering this kind of solution because it's not one that I think is as, uh, talked about. So I'm just gonna get more comfortable with understanding the mom influencers.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Well, yeah. And I think that it's fun to learn about this world. Like for me personally, talking to mom influencers and understanding their work as a form of labor has really, disentangled my sense that like I should be doing what they're doing or whatever, because now I can really see like it's just, it's a very relentless job. Yeah. Um, it's not, I would not characterize it as fun seeming from my perspective, like when I talk to mom influencers, I'm not like, damn like you got you, you've got, it made. Like it's, it's just a tremendous amount of work and, and pressure. And then they have this, this algorithm or whichever algorithm they're working with, whether it's TikTok or Instagram or whatever that like is constantly changing. And they don't understand what it wants is this is their boss. Like it's literally the algorithm is their manager and they are constantly trying to figure out what their manager wants.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: And like there's this whole folklore around like what the, what the manager wants that like mom influencers are always sharing with each other. They'll be like, yo like, you know, did you, they have, you know, groups and stuff. And they'll like, did you, did you hear that? Like, so and so, you know, lost a bunch of followers after, or she posted that thing about, you know, X, Y, Z, maybe we shouldn't be doing that. Like they're always trying to figure out what to do to avoid getting punished. So like, just imagine if like your workplace was that like much of a, like, I, I, I don't wanna say like too many profanities, sorry, its a mind, It's a Complete it's, you know, it's a mindfuck for them. And, and they, I think, and they're supposed to make it seem fun and easy cuz like the content is not appealing unless it seems like they're having an awesome time. So like it's just, to me I'm like, Ugh, the women. So I kind of look at these images and I, and I really like to look at it and understand it as labor. And for me, that kind of, it really, it helps me,
Doree Shafrir: You, you touched on something that I actually did wanna ask you about, which is, so what happens when a mom, mom, influencer deviates from this path that we have, you know, come to expect from them, you know, you, you alluded to them being punished. Um, but I'm curious kind of what you have uncovered in your research and what are some things that, uh, you have seen be like particularly sort of like alienating to audiences?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yeah. Well, I mean, so in, during the Trump presidency, like that was talking about politics was a real minefield for a lot of online personalities. And um, so like essentially audiences kind of broke down on partisan lines and like if a momfluencer came oout as like a Trump person or anti-Trump, they would lose like a huge segment of their audience and they kind of just had to like deal with it. And some people were like, well, I'm just never gonna say anything about politics is I wanna keep everyone. Um, and then, you know, so, and that, you know, received criticism. So like politics has been really hard, um, for everybody, but then sometimes they'll have, I mean, a lot of people have been like, I'm embracing my political identity and I'm gonna tell you what I think. And then the people who stay with me are my people.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: And like that I think keeps everybody very sane and they kind of go forth with like a group of like-minded followers and there's less fighting. Um, so I mean that can happen, but also like, you know, some mom influencers I think are kind of burning out and leaving, and this is kind of this new emerging narrative, like I'm thinking about, um, Taza, Naomi Davis, like she was humongous forever. She was like one of the first big mommy bloggers. And she had like, I loved her content. Like I just thought it always looked amazing and like she's adorable and her family is super adorable and she basically has just bailed from social media. She published a book and now like she's not been seen. And I think that she got really badly burned because she like rented an RV and drove across the country during COVID.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Oh, I remember that.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yep. And people were like, uh, that that's not, that's not ethical. Like she left New York. Yeah. She left New York. She's like, I'm going to Arizona. And it was just whatever happened there. I think she was like, I can't take this, this sucks. And so she quit, um, I'm, I'm putting words in her mouth. I don't know that she has quit, but she definitely isn't posting anymore. And I think that a certain amount of like women will burn out of this work because they feel like they've lost a connection with their audience. Um, or they're just like, I hate this lifestyle. I talked to a mom a couple weeks ago who she doesn't have a huge following. Um, but like she makes her a living doing this and she was like, I think I have to quit instagram, like, I just hate it.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: And I hate that I have to use it all the time. Cuz like, if you decide you wanna take a break and don't post for two weeks, your engagement takes forever to build back up because the algorithm, according to her punishes you for taking breaks. And she's like a, you know, somebody, sometimes people wanna take a break from looking at Instagram. Like I feel I, I un install Instagram for a few months, for a few weeks a year just cause I'm like, Ugh enough, like it's a sanity thing. And it's like, they're not allowed, you know? And their income depends on the engagement. So she's like, I can't work for this thing that won't let me take breaks. Like that is not right. So I think that is another way that people leave. Um, I mean I think for the most part, people really try to keep their message really inside the guardrails because they know that they're gonna, they're gonna pay, like you have to be willing to lose a lot of followers if you're gonna come out and say something really controversial.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Um, and just a lot of people are really wary of, of that. And so they just so many things go unsaid. You know what I mean? I think it's that the kind of conservatism of having this follower base, this volatile that you have to keep, you know, on your side means that you're gonna just not say a lot of stuff that you might wanna say. And that, I mean, that is also like now we're seeing this like representation of, of motherhood, of these like really cheerful women who like, are only saying some of what they think. Right. So we just don't see their three dimensional selfhood because they can't do it because their followers will probably bail. So that is also significant in terms of this representation that we're seeing.
Kate Spencer: What is the, you know, I, I, I think when we talk about mom influencers and the, and the mom influencers who are making the most money, they are, um, white, right? Uh, all mostly straight CIS thin, what is the, the IM like what is the impact of this? And is there any sort of, um, movement to have better representation in this space? Or is that kind of tricky because it's based on follow? Like how does, how, how does this space become less homogenous?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: So yeah, this space is so homogenous. It's like really something. And especially when you look at other online spaces that are really not homogenous anymore, like mom influencers feel like a little bit, like we're stuck in the past here. Like it's just as even like, you know, body positivity. Like there's a lot of different ways of being that have become so much more celebrated and represented across social media and in the mom world, I feel like we're not there. Um, I think influencer management companies are potentially helping this, which is to say they're working with like more kind of a less homogenous group of influencers and they're trying to like push them. And I, so I give, I give like credit to those companies, um, that are basically like talent, talent management companies that work with influencers. And they like pair them with brands. Like when I look at like the roster on these like big companies lately, I've been like, wow, like this is cool.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: It's, it's definitely like more interesting looking than it used to be, but still, as far as who's making a lot of money in the mom space, it's white women. And I, I don't, I, I really don't know what it's gonna take for that to change because there's definitely plenty of black mom influencers, but there's, I've noticed that like it's racially still very segregated in terms of the audiences. Like, I don't feel like there are that many black influencers who are like, as big as these white influencers. So I, I feel like it's, it's like this old style kind of, I mean, it's like racial segregation on the internet in terms of who's following what, um, and it's obviously informal, but that's just how I see. And you know, I was, I was at this virtual conference, uh, in the spring and I remember there was a, um, black mom creator who was speaking at a panel and she was like, you know, I'm really sick.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Like I've been trying to like, do my content kind of like for everyone basically like not talk about myself as a black woman and just be like, I'm a mom and trying to like appeal to a white audience. And she was basically saying like, I'm tired of doing this. It's not rewarding to me. I, I quit. Like, I'm gonna just basically double down on my identity as a black mother, because I just feel like it's, it's truer to who I am. And it's more interesting for me to make this content. So it's like that people have to choose. Um, or that, that, you know, she's basically forsaking money by doing that is really telling I think. Hmm.
Doree Shafrir: Okay.
Kate Spencer: Well, let's take a quick break and will be right by.
New Speaker: All right. We are Back.
New Speaker: I'm also curious, um, if we could switch gears just slightly, um, you have written about growing up on a commune and, um, I'm curious, kind of what you see as, um, the ways in which your upbringing has kind of informed both the ways like you raise your own children and also just like your views on the nuclear family.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yeah. I love this question. Um, so I think I ha have this like really abiding obsession with like a feeling of belonging. Mm. And I think one of the reasons why I got into mom influencers is because I was like looking at all of this content about family life. And I was like, I don't like feel that feeling anymore. Like I don't see that like, kind of like really like the, the Nouget at the center of life, which is like this deep sense of, and I've written about like, coziness, this is like an obsession that I, I, I don't know, like I'm gonna be writing about this forever. Um, I, I just wasn't seeing that coziness and that belonging that like for me, was really central to growing up. So I grew up on this commune and it was a very, you know, it was like a group of friends essentially, who like lived together.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: So it was like a, really the sense of belonging was really powerful because it's like, you don't choose your family, you know? And like, some people like don't feel comfortable or don't feel that they belong with their family. But I like grew up with this group of people that were like, we are together. This is our spot. And we belong. And like, I felt the most, like just absolute deep tissue sense of belonging at this place. Like, it was like, just, it's a feeling that I'm telling you, I'm chasing it. I'm chasing it for the rest of my life because I've left and I'm an adult and I'm trying to make my own home with my kids. And like, it's not easy to make that feeling, you know? And like, I, it it's like nothing. It's, it's really like just the absolute best. Um, and it's this just feeling like the, the anecdote that I always use is like, you come in, like, what I want is for people to come to my house.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Cause this is the way it was at the commune show up unannounced, be like, Hey guys, I'm here. And just like, go see what's good in the, you know, like, just go open the fridge, be like anything good in here. Like, what do you got? Because like, that was what people would do there. Like people would come over and be like, guys got anything good. And it was just so like, to me, that's this feeling of like real, like we're really friends. And like, I want my friends to do that when they come to my house and they don't because it's not normal. We don't, that's not like how we socialize, but so it's having that childhood has really made me always looking for that feeling and like trying to locate places where I see it and be like, wow, there it is. There it is there it's, you know?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Um, and as far as my own, as far as my own family, um, I have two, I have two boys. I mean, mostly I think like I'm just a mess. Like I'm a messy housekeeper. That's like the main, uh, legacy of that. Um, I think, I just want to feel like the house is open that like people can come over that their friends can be here. And, you know, I live in a city obviously, and I live in an apartment with like upstairs and downstairs neighbors who like, don't always wanna hear like noise. So you have to live in the society that you live in. You know, it's not like I wanna like have this like crazy house full of noise and chaos, but I want it to feel like not such a closed space, you know what I mean? And that's hard. That's a hard thing.
Doree Shafrir: Yeah. It's it it's really hard. Um, it was interesting to read about your childhood on the commune, because my dad grew up on a kibbutz and I did not. Um, and there are definitely like aspects of kibbutz living that I'm like, oh yeah. Like that makes sense. Um, so it was, it was, it was very interesting for me to kind of, I mean, obviously the commune was not a kibbutz, but there are similar aspects I think.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've never been to a kibbuts, but I've certainly heard so much about that whole movement. Um, yeah. I mean, like our was not like a work people didn't like do chores in any organized way.
Doree Shafrir: Right.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: People always ask like, oh, like we was like a chore chart. Like there wasn't even a chore chart, which really means like, it was really disorganized. And like, I love, I had a friend, I have a friend who grew up on a commune, not far from me. And like, I would go visit him. And it was like, it was Quakers. It was all like Quaker people. And they were like really more organized. And like, I would eat dinner there. And there was like a person, there was like a team of people that were gonna like clean up that night. And I was like, Ugh, it's so neat. Like people, yeah. They really, they have it all figured out. And they're also so like, whereas like if you just leave it up to chance as it was at my, the people who clean up are usually women and there's like a lot of like low level simmering hostility, ensues, and then people have to talk about it. And when I was like eight, uh, one of the women on the commune was like, asked me to make a sign, to hang over the kitchen sink. That said, why not wash a dish for a friend? And I like drew a picture of like a cheerful, two people holding dishes. And I like hung it up. And I was really proud of my art. And then like the next day somebody scrolled boys and men are not exempt on the bottom of the sign.
Doree Shafrir: Oh, wow.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: This is actually a pointed this message. Yeah.
Doree Shafrir: Wow. Um, well you, you brought up the messy house, which is something that I wanted to talk about. And I will say you wrote in your newsletter that you do your zooms in front of a closet that has a lot of stuff in it and you are in what looks to me pretty clean room. So this looks
Kate Spencer: Very organized.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: You Guys, I was wondering if someone was gonna call me out on this. This is my son's room. Um, because it's because my, um, office actually doesn't have awesome. Like when, when I'm on a recording, sometimes it like doesn't act well. So this is my like high priority recording zone, my son's room. And I like rushed to like tidy up behind myself. Oh. But yeah. No. Okay. I'm sorry. You don't get to see the mess like in person, but it's there, it's over there in that Part of the house.
Doree Shafrir: I believe you. I was just kind of looking forward to, you know, commiserating about this. Uh, but, um, I, that, that newsletter of yours like really resonated with me, um, as someone who just, I like, I, it's not, it's not possible. Um, and I loved what you said about there needing to be like more representation of messy houses in media. Um, can you talk about like why the clean house has come to be seen as like this Paragon of virtue and also how that relates to, um, the, the like neutral palette that all these houses have?
Kate Spencer: Ugh, I know the palette you're talking about
Kathryn Jezer-M...: The neutrals. I know it's a real, it's a real movement. Um, yeah, so I think that the whole cleanliness is virtuous thing is like old and very ingrained. Uh, and I think it has to do with women being homemakers and like doing our jobs, you know, effectively for forever. And so I think that's a real tough nut to crack. Like, it's gonna take a lot for us to unlearn that one, you know, and that's the thing I'm always like, can't we just like disentangle this idea that it's like good to be a good housekeeper. And it's kind of like, the answer is like, mm,
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Maybe not like, I don't know, good luck with that. Like, I would love to make it like morally neutral to be a mess. And I feel like I know people who like are paragons of this, that I really admire, who just like, are like, I'm a good person. I am in comfortable with the way I, and also my house is, is totally a disaster. Like I love that, but I think it's, it's, that's a tough, that's a tough one. Um, so in terms of interiors on social media, basically, I think that the main insight that I have, and I talked to this influencer management company and they were like, yeah, we like, cuz I was like, what's the deal with the neutrals guys? Like why does everyone wear neutral clothes? Like what is going on? And they were like, oh, well we just encourage our people to do that because it allows sponsored products to be more visually striking, like they, for contrast.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: So, you know, the images aren't as busy and you can see the spawn better. And I was like kind of horrified by this news because truly everyone's houses on the internet are neutral now. And I'm like, they're living as though, like they're making spawn or they're living according to the edicts of these like spawn, uh, you know organizing entities, but they themselves are just regular people. Like, so yeah. And, and neutral kind of really minimalist this sort of, you know, you could even call like a kind of a California. I don't know. I don't know anything about like decor, but I know there's like a special term for like the kind of ecru interior with like a lot of like clean and not a lot of chits or whatever. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's, you're gonna see a mess in that kind of environment.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Like it's gonna be super visible. Whereas like, if you have like kind of a slightly busy space or like a crazy, like there's colors everywhere, like that'll hide a mess, you know, like you don't have to dust that all the time. So I just think there's so much more high maintenance, like having a minimalist home requires so much of the housekeeper. Right. Like, I, I mean, I only can imagine, cause I don't have a minimalist home, but like when I look at those images, I'm like, you have just passed the Swiffer and you're gonna pass the Swiffer again, like in half an hour. Mm. Because like, if there's so much as like a blueprint from outside, like the whole room, like all eyes on the blueprint, you know? So, uh, I just think it's really labor intensive to have these spawn friendly interiors. Um, yeah.
Kate Spencer: So is social media creating more labor for women? Whether, regardless of if they're an influencer or not,
Kathryn Jezer-M...: I mean, I, I think that is a really, you could make that argument. Yeah. You could definitely make that argument. I, Uh, You know, it's, it's so annoying being an academic because like you're not supposed to just make these claims. Right. But like, I really tempted to, like, that sounds about right to me, you know, I mean, I think, I don't think that like people consuming momfluencer content are like putting down their phones and going and being like, I'm buying a neutral living room and I'm gonna keep this place clean. Godammit like, obviously we all have our lives that are not totally dictated by the con the content that we consume. However, I think that the, these are the, the things that we're looking up to and aspiring towards. Right. So, and they're really high maintenance and they're really high. They, they require a lot of us. So I think, yeah. pretty much
Kate Spencer: I just wanted to Validate what my fears. Yeah, yeah,
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yeah. Confirmed.
Kate Spencer: Okay. Thank you for confirming that. Oh boy. What is the, uh, what is the like upside of this? What is the upside? I know you said you don't, uh, in, you know, you don't in interview the followers, but do you feel like there is, um, something positive coming out of this community and experience or is it really just, um, you know, frustrating labor for the creators, uh, perpetuating a lifestyle that's, you know, on unattainable, I mean, is where do you see kind of like the light and the hope in the mom influencer world.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: So I think that mommy blogs, which were like the precursors to mom influencers, which is like, you know, 2000 and whatever, whenever blogging started until like basically Instagram. So there was like a good decade of blogging. And I feel like that did a lot of good for everybody. I think that, that was a time when, like we started talking about like postpartum depression. We started talking about breastfeeding and like just all this like body stuff and like reproductive stuff and, and identity stuff that really had not been talked about. So I think that discourses were like progress was made in discourse. And like what was allowed to be said really changed thanks to mommy bloggers, because, and it's partly cuz like they weren't sponsored. They were saying whatever they wanted. Yeah. And even after they were sponsored like Heather Armstrong deuce, oh boy.
Kate Spencer: Yeah.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Like she's been like just saying everything she wants to say the whole time. Um, so I think that's been really good for, for everybody. Um, and I think that, that, there's still a little bit of that. Like what's sayable is still changing very slowly. Like I think that people are talking more and more about just there are certain issues and maybe you guys can, uh, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. I feel like we, we now can talk about mental health more. I think COVID allowed moms to talk about mental health in a more real way. And that happened with the moms and now like the mom influencers are allowed to talk about, you know, depression, they're allowed to talk about antidepressants. I think they're allowed to really like go there in a way that they really weren't before. Um, so that's good. Um, and, and I'll say this, like, listen, people are making a living like a lot of women who are stuck at home trying to raise kids.
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Don't, can't afford childcare, uh, you know, whatever the case may be are earning money and they're kind of, they are commodifying and commercializing the act of being a domestic person and they're earning money. Now this is, it's a highly controversial statement to say, this is like a good I'm. I'm not gonna make a value judgment about it, but it's happening. So if you think that's a good thing, then it's a good thing. Because like these are people and many, and the moms themselves will be like, this is an amazing thing. My family's life has changed. Like I've been able to, you know, change, do things have agency that I couldn't have cause I was a stay at home mom, you know? And that, that is a real thing.
Doree Shafrir: Well, Kathryn, I, I mean, I could, I feel like I could talk, we could talk to you about this for yeah. Literally days. Yeah. Um, but you probably have some other things you need to do with your life. So, um, we, we will wrap it up here, but um, thank you so much for, for coming on the show and talking about all these things that I just find like endlessly fascinating. Yeah. Um, can you tell our listeners where they can find you, how they can subscribe to your newsletter? Anything else you want to kind of promote?
Kathryn Jezer-M...: Yeah. Um, so I'm at mothers under the influence. Substack.com. That's my sub stack. Mother's under the influence. Um, I'm on, in, I'm on Twitter. K Jezer Morton. Uh, you can follow me there, but I, I feel like don't, don't spend any more time on Twitter than is like professionally necessary for you. Don't go there. Um, I'm on Instagram, um, at KJezerMo these are all handles that created a hundred years ago and I'm never gonna change. So they're not very like, you know, it's just, it's just my old stuff. Um, but yeah. Thank you guys so much. It's really been fun. Uh, and uh, I really appreciate what you guys do, so thanks.
Doree Shafrir: Oh, thank you. And the feeling is mutual
Kate Spencer: Doree. Do you follow any mom influencers on social media?
Doree Shafrir: Um, I don't think I do unless you count like turtle Creek lane, but she's not like a real, she's like more of a,
Kate Spencer: She's not like a
Doree Shafrir: Decor influencer. Yeah.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. Slash a vibrator Def influencer.
Doree Shafrir: Totally like any way
Kate Spencer: Let's talk, our intentions
Doree Shafrir: Let's do it. So this week I am starting the new power zone pack challenge on the Peloton. I've
Kate Spencer: Been thinking of influencers. This is really your beat,
Doree Shafrir: The power zone pack. Yes. In yes. Um, yeah. You know, the group is like, there's like over 200 people who are in the forever 30 on the forever 35 team. It's very cool. And like, what's also cool is like, we often get people who had done the challenge previously, but on a different team. And then they joined the forever 35 team and they're like poaching. Oh, they're like, these are my people. Oh, that's so sweet because there's some, I don't wanna get too deep, but like there's some teams that they're just obsessed with getting like the points. And if you don't do all the rides one week, they like get very mad. And so as you can imagine, that is the antithesis of the forever thirty five group. Well do what you can do.
Kate Spencer: Do what.
Doree Shafrir: Feels good to you. It's good. It's fine. It's all good. So, um, yeah, it's a really supportive, great group, but all that said I have not been on the Peloton as much as I would like lately. I think I like after I hurt my foot and kind of recovered, I just like, haven't been in the mood to get back on. And so I'm like kind of like gearing up to, to get back on the horse as it were, the horse being my bike, getting a.
Kate Spencer: Yeah. You get back on the bike, but why just, why not to call it a horse?
Doree Shafrir: Yes. So that is my intention this week. What about you Kate? So
Kate Spencer: My intention this week is to dig out the old microcurrent device and give it a go on my face for the next couple of weeks and see what happens. I know I'm not gonna see immediate change in two weeks, but I was just like, maybe I just get into the practice of this. Let's see, let's see if I can do it. You know, like reading my book and micro, you know, if I keep the microcurrent device and the serum stuff by the side of my bed and I get in with my book, will I also microcurrent? I don't know, possibly. So we're just, it's just a microcurrent device test run for the intention this week to see if I see if I like it again.
Doree Shafrir: Okay. I'm excited for you.
Kate Spencer: I will report back in a week as we do,
Doree Shafrir: Please do. Um, Kate let's also remind everyone that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir, and you Kate Spencer. Are Produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sammy Reed is our project manager, our network partners. Acast we'll talk to you all very soon.
Kate Spencer: Bye bye.