Episode 210: Take Me To The Bone Zone with Kate Spencer
“The only way you’re going to write a book is if you just sit down and do it. “
- Kate Spencer
Doree plays host to Kate leading up to the release of Kate’s first novel In A New York Minute. The tables have turned and Kate answers questions about her adventures in romance writing (and reading), what it’s really like to write a sex scene, and how they both might actually love Zac Efron.
Photo Credit: Diana Ragland
Mentioned in this Episode
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, and welcome to forever 35. This is a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. And I'm Kate Spencer, and
Doree: I am Doree Shafrir
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: You can find everything we mention on the podcast over on our website, forever 35 podcast.com. We've got links to everything we mentioned on the show. There you can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 podcast, Instagram at forever 35 podcast. And you can join the forever 35 group where the password is serums.
Doree: Just a reminder. You can sign up for our newsletter forever35podcast.com/newsletter. We have another issue going out tomorrow, and if you want to chit chat with us, I mean, sort of,
Kate: I like how you phrase that chit chat.
Doree: It'll be like a one-sided Chi chat.
Kate: Well, I'll text you back. I try to text some people back. If I can,
Doree: Um, you can call or text us (781) 591-0390 or email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Kate: I wanna pose a question. How freaked out- this is for the listeners. How freaked out would you be if you went to call the voicemail number to leave a voicemail and I answered, would it be awkward for you? I'm just curious.
Doree: I mean, as the co-host of this podcast, I think it would be awkward for me if you were doing that.
Kate: I was like, surprise. Yeah, it's actually, yeah, I would be uncomfortable if I, if I called a podcast and the host was like, hello, I would be awkward. I would be, I would be, I would be horrified. I'd hang up. Yeah. Okay. I won't do that. I was just curious because it doesn't ring, but
Doree: You should probably, you should probably do that.
Kate: Like one time,
Doree: You know, you can turn off the ringer.
Kate: I have it turned off, but I mean like what if one day I was like, well, just turn it on. And if anybody who calls in will answer and see what happens.
Doree: Um, yeah, you should do that.
Kate: That seems terrifying. I, on the other side, like for me, I would be very fun on the other side of things. I think it would probably be horrifying, so I won't do that.
Doree: Okay. Okay.
Kate: All right. It's just an idea that popped into my head. Um, Doree, before we get started, I just wanna do my like book, promotion, spiel, be cuz as you might know, if you listen to the podcast, I have my first novel coming out on March 15th and look, we're in the heat of promotion. This will not last forever. I appreciate you bearing with me as I make these little announcements and spiels and everything else, but here's the deal. Number one, I am hosting a virtual party on March 18th at 8:00 PM Eastern and my guest is one and only Doree Shafrir. That's right. Doree. And I will be in conversation. Yeah. And you can join us all. Please do.
Doree: Gonna be so fun.
Kate: I'm excited as we've discussed, we are just gonna like let it rip. So you wanna be there. You don't wanna miss this. Please come chat with us live. All you have to do is just, uh, fill out a little form with your name, your email address, and upload a receipt. Showing that you bought my book and you're in
Doree: That's it's easy peasy. That's
Kate: It? Easy peasy. You can. Pre-order my new book in a New York minute. Anywhere you buy books. But if you wanna sign and personalized copy, I will include a link because you can get one of those signed by me from Vromans or the ripped bodice to wonderful bookstores here in Los Angeles. Of course you can preorder the audio book anywhere you get an audio book. We love our friends at Libro FM. You can also check out, you know, audible everywhere, everywhere in audio book is the book is yep.
Doree: Yep. Yep.
Kate: Okay. That's my spiel. I am done spieling.
Doree: That is your spiel. Um, I have a mini spiel, which is just her mind, everyone that I have a new newsletter. Now we're talking and you can sign up for that at Doree.subtstack.com. It's really, it's popping off over there.
Kate: We are spieling and popping today.
Doree: We are spieling and popping and you know what is exciting, Kate?
Kate: I don't, but I'm excited to find out what is exciting.
Doree: You are the guest of today's episode of forever 35. You're doing double duty. You're both the host and the guest.
Kate: You know, we did this when your book, thanks for waiting was coming out. You were the actual guest on an episode. And I really, I had a chuckle over planning my question and kind of tormenting you. And, and now it's my turn in the hot seat.
Doree: It is your turn.
Kate: I'm excited. I I'm excited, but I love being a podcast host. And I always, it's hard for me to shut that off. You know, I love asking questions. I love like following up. So I just to like take a, just to relax in the passenger seat today is, is gonna be strange.
Doree: Well, Kate lean back have a sip of water from your hydroflask. And just enjoy, enjoy deep breath. What is about to come? So Kate
Kate: What is going to happen?Okay.
Doree: As you know, because you are one of the hosts of this podcast, we like to start every interview by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. And since you, Kate, Spencer are the guest today, I dosha free. Also known as one of the hosts of this podcast. I'm asking you what is a self-care practice that, and look, maybe you've talked about it on the show. Maybe you haven't, maybe you're doing something that we don't know about. I'm dying to know.
Kate: Okay. I'm going to drop a new one on you today, Doree.
Doree: Yes,
Kate: but it's, it's something you and I have texted about. So you know, I'm doing this. Okay. All right. But I'm actually surprised we haven't discussed this for either of us on forever 35 yet. Okay. And that is every morning I am doing Wordle every morning I get up, I get my coffee, I let the dogs out. And then if I have time before the madness of like my kids rising and demanding oatmeal, I will do the Wordle word game. Which if you're not familiar, I, I suspect most people are, but it's a word game that a gentleman made for his partner and his last name was what? Wordle.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: And he just called it wordle. Yeah. And you have to basically figure out a five letter word and you get what, six chances to figure it out. Um, I think it's six and I find it extremely satisfying to do every morning. In fact, like sometimes there have been nights where I know it's gone live because it's, I think it's done in the UK. And, um, I'll be, I'll be like, I could do Wordle now, but it's like, no, I like it the morning. It just gets my brain kind of juiced up.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: It's satisfying. But it doesn't take me too long most days. So I can kind of knock it out in under five minutes and I just find it extremely satisfying. It, we should note it has been purchased by the New York times, but it is still free for anyone to use. So it, if you're a, Wordal curious and you're not already playing, I highly recommend it for those of us who aren't gonna sit down and do a crossword every day, you know?
Doree: Sure, sure. Sure.
Kate: Even the New York times, spelling bees sometimes takes me a very long time, but this is just a Quick Brain teaser that I have been enjoying. It's been a really nice way to start my day.
Doree: It is nice that it's not like long and drawn out. I agree.
Kate: Some days there have been either like I get caught up doing something or the word is wait for whatever reason, I'm having a hard time with the word. But most days it's a quickie, you know, Quick. Uh,
Doree: Now Kate, are you a person who starts with the same word every day?
Kate: Never.
Doree: Okay. Me too. No. In fact, most days I can't even remember what I started with the day before.
Kate: Same. Oh, never, never, ever. And quite honestly, my strategy changes from day to day. Like when I was first starting, I was dumping a bunch of vowels in there to try to knock out the vowels. And now I'm just like, anything goes, I don't care. I'm gonna just rogue Wordle today where I suspect like my husband, I don't know. But I feel like he probably, he probably has some real strategy to it cuz he's a real strategy guy.
Doree: Mm. Interesting.
Kate: But I just like to kind of go crazy with my world.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Yeah. And I'm gonna tell you, I have gotten two in two tries.
Doree: That's amazing. Wow.
Kate: That's been a real highlight for me. I, I tend to, I tend to land mostly in the four tries zone I've gotten.
Doree: Yeah, same. Yeah.
Kate: That's where I kinda land.
Doree: Um, unrelated question. But do you involuntarily think of the Bahamen song Who let the dogs up when you let your dogs out?
Kate: No. No. Do you do that every morning?
Doree: No, but because you have multiple dogs.
Kate: Oh, but
Doree: For me it would just be dog
Kate: Who let the dog out. Okay. No,
Doree: it's not the same.
Kate: I don't. But now I'm annoyed because I feel like now tomorrow morning I'm gonna be like me and that's gonna be in my head.
Doree: I mean, it'll make it more fun.
Kate: Will it though?
Doree: Yeah. You're gonna be like who let the dogs out.
Kate: I don't know if that's a good song.
Doree: Who, Who, who, who, and then you can be like me. Like I Let the dogs out.
Kate: Always, this sounds like a preschool, like a song and dance that you do with like preschool kids. Like who let the dogs out. I let the dogs out. Let the dogs out. Henry let the dogs out. You know, those kind of like back and forth preschool songs.
Doree: I do. I do.
Kate: And thinking of like the hello circle song, there's always like some sort of hello circle song.
Doree: There is yes. At, at my son's school. There's also a goodbye circle song.
Kate: Oh, that's sweet.
Doree: Yeah. Except one time I started singing it to him before he went to sleep and he started to cry.
Kate: Doree! Did he say why?
Doree: No. He gets very emotional around certain songs anyway. This is not about me. This is about you, Kate.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Youa re looking quite fetching today. Okay. Your hair is in a very pretty braid situation. Okay.
Kate: Yes.
Doree: Your makeup is on point.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Now I would like to know, cause you have talked about your five minute makeup routine, but I would like, know what, what makeup is in the rotation when you wanna like, look not just a five minute makeup, like when you're like, I'm gonna put on makeup. Okay. I'm gonna do my makeup. Talk me through this.
Kate: So today. Okay. So after we record this episode, I have to record a video as a part of my book, book, promotion. So I would say the makeup I have on right now is what I would call like zoom or video makeup. I don't think I have a going out makeup routine yet because I haven't Tru really gone out. Right. Sure. In a few years, you know, like I don't have like a, I'm going to someone's birthday party makeup. Okay.
Doree: So like, so like nice.
Kate: But I'll tell you what I have on now.
Doree: Yes, please.
Kate: So for zoom makeup, I kind of just have been digging whatever I have at home. Like I don't have a thick, um, uh, foundation anymore, but what I did use was thrive cosmetics, BB cream. And I actually have to say it like went on with a lot of coverage. Lemme make sure it's I have the correct one. Is it the BB? Okay. No, I'm sorry. The thrive causemetics CC cream. And I believe it kind of is they call it buildable, but I was surprised at how much it is giving me because you know, oftentimes a lot of these like new kind of foundations are very light or they're like a serum foundation. So this one gave me a lot of coverage. I also used their concealer. I, I normally am a Fenty concealer person, but um, okay.
Kate: I couldn't find it. So I dug out my thrive and that gave me some really good coverage too. So I've got some thrive cosmetics happening on my face. I will say I always use thrive mascara, but today I couldn't find that cuz it's all packed cuz I'm traveling. So, uh, I used my Ilya mascara just wanna side note that. Mm okay. For my cheek story, I used Gucci Westman atelier yes, yes, yes. She has like a cheek blush stick that I really like is very blendable. But if you want to get a little heavier with the color, which I think you want in a video because we get so washed out in these zooms. So I have that in, I think, oh my God, you're gonna laugh. I think the color I'm using is a Dodo stop. I think I have to double check D O U D O U it's a warm rose. It's either that or pedal the dusty nude rose color. Yeah. Or it's the one named after you Dodo? Ah, so I like this stick, this stick is expensive. It's $48.
Doree: I also have one of the Gucci Westman atelier sticks. And I also like it and I was also a little, she shocked at the price.
Kate: Yeah. I had sticker price, but I, I mean sticker shock, but I also like it. So I don't know I'm trapped. So there we are, you know? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Then for the eyes I used a tart lit by tart eye shadow palette.
Doree: I love that palette.
Kate: I love it too. And I'm trying to remember which one I used if I can take a moment because I, I wasn't prepared to answer this question. So I'm really not, um, doing the best job here with,
Doree: Oh, sorry.
Kate: No, no, it's I, I should have reviewed what I was gonna be asked because I do have access to our documents.
Doree: I did. I did put the questions in the document.
Kate: Yes you did. Okay. So I used the, um, uh, in bloom palette, tartelette palette. In bloom. Okay. Then Doree came the disaster of my eyeliner in which I was using my beloved Stila Double-sided eyeliner that has like their regular tip and their micro tip. And I, my hand is unsteady. Okay. I don't have a firm grip on this eyeliner. And so I went like ju and I made it thicker than it needed to be. So then had to match on the other side. So I, now I have very thick eyeliner on and then I was like, oh, should I just go for it and do a cat eye? Like what fun? And that was a bad idea.
Doree: What fun?
Kate: Yeah. I, why do I always think it's gonna work out? It never does. I have this thing by KA eye and they make a cat eye shaped stamp. Okay.
Doree: Oh, that's fun.
Kate: It's it's very cool. In theory, I feel like it's a great idea. I have a hard time kind of making the stamp as pointy as I want, but I used after I did my eyeliner, like on my lid, I used their wink stamp, wing eyeliner and I stamped the cat eye on the side of my eyes.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Okay. They also make an eyeliner, but in this instance I used my steel eyeliner and I used the KA stamp. Okay. And then to tie it all together, my favorite red NARS heat wave.
Doree: Mm. A classic
Kate: Apparently, you know, I am just kind of getting involved with this color, but everybody knows it. I'm like the last to know. I do feel like I'm the last person on earth. Who's in tune with the fact that this is the perfect red. And then I did just wanna mention since like, I'm the guest today, is that a product I really want to get, but I have not bought yet. Is the Jones Road a beauty miracle bomb.
Doree: Ooh,
Kate: Have you tried this? People love this stuff,
Doree: But I am so Jones road curious
Kate: Me too. That's exactly what I am. And I just haven't like bit the bullet, but it's Bobby Brown's actual makeup line. Right? Like Bobby Brown, the line we know know was sold and she has nothing to do with it.
Doree: Yes. She does not own the rights to her name. So, right. Yeah.
Kate: So this balm is basically like, it's like a sheer, but it's a color and you just kind of put it all over your face.
Doree: Ooh.
Kate: I don't know. I'm intrigued. That's maybe you can use it. Yeah. You can use it, you know, as a little bit like, I, I don't, you know, like on your cheeks. I don't know. Okay. I really wanted to try this and I just haven't yet. So I just wanted to throw that out as like an on the horizon product that I wanna get my hands on.
Doree: I'm excited for you.
Kate: I mean, luckily I do this podcast so I can report back on if I get it. That's true. And if I like it, that is very true. I just need to like slow my role in terms of the acquisition of makeup products and skincare
Doree: Products.
Kate: I mean, it's gotten to be too much
Doree: Or do you?
Kate: I think I do.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Today, Anthony came in and, and just goes, um, in, I have a question like amongst all the products that you own, do you have a body moisturizer that I could have? That was like, oh, yeah I do.
Doree: Oh my, my God.
Kate: I have a thousand. You could have because I'm, that's so funny Collecting them.
Doree: Oh, oh,
Kate: Sweet, sweet, straight men.
Doree: Um, okay. One more makeup question and then we're gonna move on. Okay. Um, have you gotten any more lipsticks that you're excited about?
Kate: No, but you know what? I have circled back to oops. Excuse me. You know what, I've circled back to what that I've been using a lot. Okay. So, uh, a friend of ours and friend of the pod author, Maureen goo. Yes. I think the first time she was on forever 35, she recommended a Sisley phyto lip twist. Okay. Which is basically like a stick, a lip pencil, like a big fat lip pencil.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: And I Bought this per her recommendation and then kind of forgot about it. And I've recently picked it back up and I love it. I love it. Like, and this thing is good for both, uh, like a zoom makeup and a natural role live in your life makeup.
Doree: That's exciting.
Kate: And I will tell you the color I have as soon as I figure it out. Yes. Okay. So I have it in nut
Doree: Nut. Okay.
Kate: Nut, not the best, most descriptive name Color.
Doree: No,
Kate: it's lind of like a, I it's like a dusty peach.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Which Does not sound delicious,
Doree: But doesn't sound, it doesn't sound bad.
Kate: Nut sounds kind of lame nut. No disrespect to Sisley Paris, but really nut.
Doree: Oh gosh.
Kate: Anyway, this thing is probably four years old Doree. Like it's I've had for a while. I probably shouldn't be using it, but sorry. I am. I'm still using it and it works fine. What can I say?
Doree: Um, fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Thank you. Um, alright, so moving on, uh, actually, you know what, Kate? Yes, we are gonna take a short break.
Kate: Oh, I love being in the passenger seat. I didn't even know that was gonna happen. Okay, great. Let's take a pause.
Doree: Yeah, we're gonna take a pause and when we come back, we're gonna be really getting into it about your book.
Kate: Oh goodness. Okay. I'm ready.
Doree: Right. We'll be right back.
Doree: Okay. We have returned our guest today is the one and only Kate Spencer. That's me so thrilled to have you on the show. Kate,
Kate: Thank you so much. I've always wanted to come on. I've been a long time listener
Doree: You. I mean, you've been, you've been one of our dream guests for a long time.
Kate: Ugh. I know. I know. I've been the top of the List
Doree: You have. Okay. So Kate, let's talk about this book because I feel like I, I saw kind of the Genesis of this book. You were some of one who was like, I've always wanted to write a novel. Like I remember you saying that and then you wrote a novel and now I know that the, the, the path from a to B was not quite as, uh, straightforward as I'm presenting it here on the podcast. Let's talk about the process of writing this book. I wanna know how many drafts did you write? Oh, how, like how much kind of like overhauling did you do? How different is the final product from the original? From the first, let's say the first draft. Okay. And I'm also curious, sorry, this is a, like a 10 part question.
Kate: I don't mind.
Doree: Do you recall specific feedback you got that improved the book?
Kate: Yes.
Doree: Okay. Okay. So where would you like to begin?
Kate: Okay, Let's start. So I have always wanted to write fiction since, since around 2010, I have been writing fiction privately, like just writing attempted manuscripts for years and years and years. And I have never finished a manuscript. And finally, with this book and this idea, I just said to myself, like, look, it's now or never, if you really wanna do this, you're gonna finish a first draft, like enough of this giving up in the middle and not, and it's being so bad and you can't look at it. Like you just, you just do it. I just felt really determined just because I knew, you know, when there's something you wanna do so badly, but like you're your own, you're the only person standing in your way.
Doree: Yes,
Kate: That's what it was me standing in my own way. And so I just kept going and I set a word count goal and kind of a target deadline for a first draft. And I did it. And the thing about writing is once you have words written down, it becomes a lot easier to then keep going. So it's, you know, it's a real catch 22 because writing is hard and not always fun. And you're also critiquing your work in real time. And you're just like, this is terrible. This is awful. When, who am I kidding? I can never do this. This makes no sense. Yeah. When the truth is the real work comes, when you revise and edit and revise and edit and Polish the thing into the like, you know, the final product. So my first draft of this book was probably around, let's say 55,000 words.
Kate: And I think I set that target because when you do national novel writing month nano Remo, I think they, they target you at like 56,000 words. And that's where you try to complete a first draft of something in a month. So I was just like, okay, I'm gonna get there. And I did it. And that was amazing. It felt amazing. And I will tell you in terms of like the difference between that moment when I finished the first draft and the book that is coming out, it's changed so much. It, the book is about 95,000 words long. Wow. So it's almost doubled in size. So that should just tell you how much work went in after the first draft.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: So I think you read a version maybe right before it kind of went to my agent and what I was was a really greatly learning experience for me is that working with my editor, Amy Pont at forever, really like the book transformed under her, um, tutelage, like she real, if she was a real partner in improving the book and helping me really clarify stuff, and the ending is different. I mean, it really, it really changed a lot. So it went through before I sent it kind of off to my agent, it probably went through three revisions and I had had a bunch of friends read it and then we sold it. And then I did a bunch of revising with my, and with my editor. So it, it really has changed a lot, which I think when you read a book you're reading someone's final piece of work and it's, you can't ever visualize or see, or imagine like the many stages that thing went through, but woo. It goes through a lot.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: You know, and that's been eye opening to me as I, as I now transition into my role as author.
Doree: Yeah. Um, right.
Kate: Kate. Okay. Wait. Yes. You did ask me if there was advice.
Doree: Yes, yes, Yes. Sorry.
Kate: If there was no, I'm trying to
Doree: Remember specific editorial feedback that you remember that you feel like really improved the book.
Kate: Well, I do think, you know, one thing that stands out is my friend Gwen read it and she is a lawyer. And one of the characters in my book, uh, is also a lawyer. And I had had her as a law professor this originally and Gwen read a copy and was like, just so you know, if this person's a law professor, they went to basically like yell in Harvard. And they like, it's very hard to become a law professor. It's not just like anything and like an average person's just kind of doing on the side. And that was cause that was very eye opening. Cause I don't know anything about law professor ships. I just kind of like made this character, a law professor because it worked with the story. And so, you know, just having people from a wide, a variety of walks of life, read your work is very helpful. Cause they catch things that you might have forgotten to research. And so that character then became an adjunct law professor and also like a lawyer to nonprofit. So like things like that. And then there are also like massive structural changes and you know, character changes and all sorts of things. But that one really like that was very helpful. That was a thing that could have just, I could have overlooked, you know, and then someone reading it, who's a law professor. Would've been like what?
Doree: I think that also points to something that I think people that writers sometimes forget, which is like, it's good to show people your work. And it's good to show like a range of people, your work, because like Gwen's not an editor, you know? Yeah. She's not like a professional who edits books for a living, but she is a, she's a talented writer of other things. And like she has this like life experience to draw on that can help inform what you're writing about. So, so I feel like people should, you know, remember that when they are writing that, like it's good to get people's feedback.
Kate: You know, this is very good advice. And it's one that is very hard for me because I'm such a people pleaser that I feel really nervous to show people anything that doesn't feel like my best work, because I don't want them to think poorly of me. So showing people work in progress has been a real, like you were probably the first person I ever did that with. And it's been a real process for me because it feels embarrassing. Sometimes you're like, I don't, this is not there yet. But then having someone read it in the various state and just giving like, uh, the feedback can be so helpful. I got feedback from a friend recently on a current manuscript and it completely improved it. And it was like a general kind of note that she gave me. So yeah, if you are creating work in that way, I highly recommend getting uncomfortable and having a lot of people read it.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, that's also like a good reminder for myself. So gonna it's hard take my own advice here. Well,
Kate: We've also been so conditioned to like always only put out our best, you know, like there's totally.
Doree: Yes,
Kate: Culturally, I feel like there's not a lot of room for like things or, and whatever it is doesn't necessarily have to be art, like anything that we're just kind of practicing and working toward. There's not a lot of space to just be like mediocre and have that be fine.
Doree: Ooh. Yes. Such right. Good. Such a good point. Such a good point. Thank you so much, Kate. Yes. I would like to know what is your writing practice?
Kate: My writing practice is inconsistent because I do not have a consistent daily schedule because I have two children and two dogs and a spouse and a home and family. And I, part of my job is creating this podcast with you. Um, I also have other writing work, so it there's no like consistent day to day for me.
Kate: So I say this because I think like sometimes some writers are like, I get up at eight and I check my email and then from nine to two I write and then at two I go for a walk and so I don't live like that. I write when I can. And that's it. And you that you just have to be consistent and doesn't consistency. Isn't every day. It means just coming back to it, it, you know, over and over and over again. So that is how I write. I try to write in, uh, por method where I write for about 20 minutes using my time timer, clock that you're familiar with and then giving myself a break, but I don't always follow that. And the one thing I do that really does up is every, when I'm working on a project, every time I write, I try to track my word count for that writing session on a, like a Google sheets or Excel spreadsheet. And then I also put the total because I really like seeing the increase in words that helps me understand that it's moving forward. You know, I feel like sometimes we, when we feel like a project or something we're doing, isn't moving forward. You're just like, why, what is the point of this? But when you can kind of see that, even if you write like a hundred words,
Kate: Your project is still grow growing.
Doree: Mm.
Kate: It really, really helps. I don't know what it is. It just truly, truly makes a difference. I'm trying to find, I'm trying to look on here and see if I can find the one that I was doing for my current manuscript. One moment please. Doree word, Word count. Here we go. Okay. I didn't follow, I didn't completely follow through this, but for example, on July 7th of this draft, I had 497 words total. And you're just like, how am I ever gonna write a book? I have 500 words, but by, you know, August 31st, I had 17,000 words.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: So just to see that get bigger and bigger every day, and it doesn't matter how much you write, even if you only write 10 words, that's still an increase.
Doree: totally, that's 10 more words. Yeah. It's 10 more words than we had yesterday.
Kate: Exactly. And it's just literally putting that one word on top of the other, you know, small steps, baby steps,
Doree: Small steps. Ugh. I love that. Would you say that that is something that helps keep you motivated?
Kate: Yes. And it makes the idea of completing a project more digestible. Mm. Getting to a certain word count for me really helps. Um, and just so people know, like going, you talk about word count books, vary in, um, you know, the amount of words that are in them. But I would say the average book that you you're reading probably has about 80 at least.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: You know, can vary anywhere from like 70 to 200,000 words, you know, some of these like giant game of Thrones type books. Yeah. But I would say probably in the 80 range would be like your average novel, maybe, maybe 80 to a hundred. So yeah. So it's, you know, you kind of just sit there and keep adding them. They can feel very tedious.
Doree: Yeah. But then in the end you have a book.
Kate: Yes. That's. What's so like miraculous about it every time to me, it's always like, wow, totally. This came out of thin air.
Doree: Yeah. Um, all right, Kate.
Kate: Yes.
Doree: I would like to know, you know, I, I know that very few of our listeners will have already read the book by the time this airs. So I don't wanna like get too into the plot or, you know, the characters really, but could you give us just kind of a brief overview of the book and then I have some follow up questions to that.
Kate: I would be honored Doree. Here's what this book is about. Our main character Franny is having a really terrible day. She's just gotten laid off. She's walking to the subway in New York city, carrying a variety of bags that are hurting her back. You've been there. You know what? It's like, all of you out there, you're carrying like a purse and a tote bag with your lunch. And then you're holding a box with all the stuff from your desk because you just got laid off. She makes it onto a crowded subway car at rush hour in the morning. And as soon as she does, she realizes that she is a, having a terrible wardrobe malfunction in which her dress gets stuck in the subway door and rips down the back. And she, she is suddenly about to be naked on the subway. And of course, a handsome stoic stranger steps in and offers her his jacket.
Kate: And they have a very awkward interaction. And then he leaves and gets off at his stop and to the people around them, it looks like they have just had the most adorable, romantic into interaction in the world and they capture it all and post it on Instagram and it goes viral. And of course these, they did not have a very sweet, adorable interaction and they meet again and it gets even more awkward and they're like, we could never be together. But then because of the magic of New York city and their wonderful little friend groups, the world keeps bringing them back together again and again. And then of course, because it is a romance, we do have a happily ever after at the end of this book.
Doree: Oh, Thank God.
Kate: Yeah. That is with the romance. You always have to have a happily ever or after. Yes. So don't fret, but yeah, it's, it's really, you know, it's really a story about falling in love, finding yourself, figuring out, you know, who you are as, as an adult. And, um, doing that with friends who really feel like family. And, you know, another thing I hope is that this book is light and funny. I wanted to really kind of honor the romcom genre that I love so much. So, you know, there's a lot of fun, little romcom tropes throughout that I always really enjoy as a reader and also a viewer of romcoms. So it's a, it's a light read.
Doree: It's a light really, it's a very fun light. I also will say that you, you briefly mentioned this, but in addition to it being a very fun romance, I also love your portrayal of female friendship in this book.
Kate: Thank you, Doree. I mean, number one, you gotta have a book that passes the Betal test, right? You wanna have people contain multitudes. You don't just want it to be about like, you know, a dude
Kate: That being said, I really had fun writing the friendships, uh, Franny house with her two best friends, Lola and Cleo, because I don't know, I have such close friendships and they really, your friends do get you through the times, right? Like they are the people who are there for you when you are going viral for an embarrassing reason, or when you get laid off or you get dumped or you have something to celebrate, like they are your number one cheerleaders and there to pick you up. And that's what I, that's what I that's. That is how my experience living in New York city was. And even now as a, you know, an old lady living in the suburbs of Los Angeles, I still feel that way about, um, my friends. And so that was very satisfying to write. Um, and also, you know, I did live in New York in my twenties and my first apartment, I lived with two of my best friends, Sarah and there, and we got into a lot of mischief. And so, you know, a lot of that is kind of a lot of our adventures inspired just the, those friendships too.
Doree: Hmm.
Kate: I know. I dedicated the book partially to them and I just told them today, so, oh, that's fun. Yeah.
Doree: Why did you wanna set a book in New York? Was it because you kind of had these fond memories of the mischief that you and your pals have gotten into in your early twenties? Was there something else about the city that you felt drawn to to kind of portray it in fiction?
Kate: Okay. I, I just said it in New York, because in my brain, it was just easy to have a big a subway. Mishap was kind of the initial idea, this like subway moment. So I knew the New York subway very well. We, New York has a really active voice system. Like this was easier to pull off than if I were gonna do like the Bart in San Francisco or right. You know, our subway here in LA. Yes. So number one, that, that was part of it. And I just know New York very well. And so it felt comfortable to set a book there. Like I've never been to Chicago, for example, I don't know, know if I could write the same book about two people in Chicago because I, I don't know. I don't have like a love relationship with certain streets or certain, you know, areas or certain bagel shop where in New York and writing about New York, I kind of got to just weave those things in. Yeah. Um, and so, so yeah, and then, you know, what happened is that I just kind of like poured all my home sickness for New York into it. Mm. Because I love it's my favorite place in the world and I still deeply miss not living there. And so this was like my way of just getting to be like, mm. You know, that like crying feeling when you miss your home.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: That's what this that's what a lot of this ended up being. And again, like, it was also very fun Doree because like my, one of my favorite movies was when Harry met Sally and New York is essentially a character in that film. Yes. And so it kind of started to feel like that for me. And that was really, really fun.
Doree: Well, as someone who also, um, set a novel in New York, I totally understand. But actually you are bringing up when Harry met, Sally is the perfect segue to my next question, which is that your book has been compared to Nora Ephron's work. Who of course wrote when Harry met Sally. And I just wanna know I, how does that make you feel?
Kate: Okay. It that's ridiculous. Number one, that's what it makes me feel like, because that Nora friend's like one of my biggest role models, obviously she's like a legend, so that's a very generous comparison, you know, that's like very, very kind look,
Doree: I'm not the one who made it. I,
Kate: No, I was very that, that was mentioned a couple times by people who blurbed the book or have read it. Um, but also Like I Love Nora Ephron has written some of the best romantic comedies ever. Okay. Ever, Ever. And she does it so well, and she's brilliant. And I, I long for media that is like that. And I think we're seeing like a resurgence of romantic comedies kind of coming back. I, you know, I enjoyed single all the way on Netflix. I liked, you know, like Ali Wong's movie always be my, maybe I feel like, you know, the hating game, which is a book I love was recently turned into a film. I do think we're seeing that this kind of like amazing romantic comedy genre come back in a wonderfully reinvented, smarter, more inclusive way. Yeah. Um, and I just wanted, I that's just, it's love, like, that's just what brings me the greatest joy. I mean, you've heard me like gush about all things, romantic comedy. I mean, it's my favorite. So I certainly have been inspired and, you know, and following what I have learned watching, um, all these movies and reading people's work over the years. I mean, it's, you know, everything is derivative ultimately. So yes, I'm certainly channeling all, you know, my Nora Ephron desires into, into this book for sure.
Doree: Ugh. I mean, I was kind of joking when I said, well, I wasn't voting made that, but the fact is I agree with it. So that's really on that note. We're gonna take another little break.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: And when we come back, I have some more questions for you.
New Speaker: All right. We'll be right back. Okay. Kate?
Kate: Yes.
Doree: I think that the, the question on everyone's mind is, is there sex in the book and what was it like to write sex scenes?
Kate: Oh my gosh. I'm so glad you asked this. I've been doing a lot of podcasts and no one has asked me this yet. What? Okay.
Doree: How no. How has no one asked you this? I don't know. Anyway, I'm asking you
Kate: Look not, everybody's a Doree Shafrir who wants to know about the bone zone. Okay. So I have to tell you,
Doree: Take me to the bone zone. Okay.
Kate: Doree, this book does not have graphic sex. It has sex. Our characters do consummate their relationship and they're orgasms. But for whatever reason, as I was writing this, I did not write detailed sex scenes between the two of them. I don't know. I, and I, you know, it's weird is for some reason I thought I was like, Ooh, I can't rate sex scenes, but I just drafted my next book. And the two main characters in that book, I just, they are just boning everywhere. And I wrote it in great detail. So the next book is way more filled with sex than this book. And I, I, I think it's because this book just kind of had like a real PG 13 sunny, like we're just holding hands, tromping around eating slices of pizza, kind of vibe that for them to all of a sudden be like, bend over the couch. Let me spread your leg. Okay. Do I need to go there? I'm sorry.
Doree: We're leaving that in.
Kate: Yeah. Okay, thanks. Sorry. It just didn't like the, the, the characters didn't, I don't know. It didn't lend themselves to like detailed. There's definitely detailed, like hooking up, but it's, I don't get into, um, you like a, as much detail about their intimacy as I think you find in a lot of books right now. So, you know, and it's been funny. I've been like reading some reviews and some of the reviews are like, I really wish this book was steamier and I get it because I love very steamy books. And again, my next one will probably be, was steamier. But for some reason, these characters, like as a, I wrote them, they just didn't go there. And, and I don't know how else to kind of articulate it. Um, you know, but they do like, and they're also kinda like awkward and dorky and they have like very sweet, like their first sex scenes, like very awkward. She like, can't get her pants off cuz they're wet. Like, you know, just things that like, I feel like would happen to me kind of happen. Um, it's old little Franny, so, but they do have sex. They, and they are both very good at sex and um, PLE themselves and their partners just wanna make that clear.
Doree: Mm. Well I'm excited for your next book.
Kate: Yeah. I I'll send the next book is like, it it's like funny to me how different it is in that way. Um, and I truly think it's just what you discover as you write the characters. That's the only conclusion I've made, cuz I can't figure out why in this book. I didn't. And in the next book I did. So this the, so in a New York minute is what we kind of call in the romance genre. It's not closed door where there's like no mention of the, or like alluded to, but doesn't happen. It's like a little like a cracked door I would say.
Doree: Okay. All right. Okay, good. So we we've set those expectations. Well, that's actually a good transition to my next question, which is about your kind of, uh, romance lineage, if you will. Oh, I'm curious. Like when did you start reading romance? Okay. Who were you reading? Who were the romance authors you grew up with?
Kate: So I had a very different experience where I did not grow up reading romance. Um, the books that were in my home, my mom read mystery books. Mom was like the, you was Doree. You and my mom had the same taste in books. So I was reading like Stephen King when I was like 11. I wasn't reading Danielle Steele. So to be very honest, I didn't read romance really until I was an adult. And the gateway for me was a reading Twilight. And I read that two years after my mom died. And it was maybe the first book I kind of read in my grief, my deep grief. And that opened me up to like a, to ye. And so, and I had never really read ye before as an adult. So after I read Twilight, I read, you know, the hunger games and divergent. And then from reading all this kind of like slight fantasy dystopian, Y I started reading contemporary Y and that led me to people like Jenny H and, um, Jennifer E. Smith who's, uh, books.
Kate: I, I love and, and, um, Stephanie Perkins, like all these ya romance writers. And then I was like, oh, this exists in adult fiction too. Like, what am I doing over here where we're not getting into, like I say, the bone zone, like I wanna, I wanna get into it. And, um, one thing that had happened Doree is when I was reading Twilight, I got very deep into Twilight fan fiction, which was very, I, I like all 'em. I like AU, which is like alternative universe fan fiction, where they're not where Edward's not a vampire. I like Edward as just a person. So like there's no, okay. There's no wear wolfs in my preferred Twilight fan fiction. It's like Edwards an artist and Bella is a librarian or like Edwards a mafia guy. And she's, uh, the other rival mafia. Like that's what I like in terms of my fanfic tastes.
Kate: So I was reading a lot of romance via fanfic and um, then my real gateway into like adult romance, Dick contemporary fiction was Christina Lauren who are two amazing humans who write together and their book, which they, they started out actually in the Twilight fan fiction world, individually writing. And then they came together as writers and they're like prolific romance writers and have been super supportive of me and have been very inspiring for me to kind of learn from their books. I love their books. So they were like, my first maybe like, yeah, now I'm reading adult.
Doree: Oh yeah
Kate: And, and like, I didn't read pride and prejudice really until I think I was an adult. So I'm, I'm behind, but the there's never, it's never too late, you know? Yeah. And now I read as much as I can get my hands on in the romance world.
Doree: So do you have other book specific book or just general author recommendations that you would like to share?
Kate: I just feel like where do I even begin? There are so many talented people writing romance, and I do feel like the representation is, is getting broader and more inclusive. Like, you know, I'm, I'm, I have a, a book that I'm about to read by Anita Kelly called love and other disasters that features a non-binary love interest. Like it's just, there's just so many amazing writers writing romance at this exact moment. And one thing that, um, very selfishly has been fun about doing this podcast as I try to bring on a lot of them as guests, tall Hebert, Helen Wang. Um, we have Jackson, I mean, just like Amy Spalding, who's been on has an adult book coming out. Um, and she's written some amazing ya romance. I mean, it's just, I like, you know, uh, the idea of you by Robin Lee, I'm pointing at my bookshelf behind me. Um, I am reading, uh, Farra Harrans new book. Camilla knows best which I'm. I mean, it's just, there's just so many there's and I'm, this is like tip of the iceberg. What I'm getting at Tesa Bailey, Abby Jimenez. Like there's something for everybody. You're not gonna like everything. I've just thrown out Sally thorn, Casey McQuiston. I mean, Doree there's so much good stuff out there.
Doree: Is there a book or an author that you do? You have a go-to when someone who has never read romance wants to like dip a toe into the genre, do you have, do you have like gateway romance book that you recommend?
Kate: I think Christina Laurens, the Unhoneymoons is a good gateway because that is another book that like my book is, I would say a cracked door. They are excellent at writing very detailed sex scenes, but the UN honeymoons, I believe I reread it recently and I'm, I might be mistaken, but I believe it's a bit more like peachy 13 ish. So if you're kind of like, what is, what is this world? Yeah, that's a great, and, and it's a really kind of fun romantic comedy type book. Um,
Doree: in fact, Kate, I believe that maybe I didn't talk about this on the pod, but I think I said this to you directly that I thought the book needed more sex.
Kate: Yeah. Well, especially because, you know, if you read all their books, most of their books have a lot of, you know, in it. But I also think like, you know, the great thing about being a writer is like, you get to do what you want with these characters.
Doree: Totally, Totally.
Kate: And so I love that in that book. They, they didn't, I mean, I just think it's so it's so interesting. I mean, I think Robin, Lee's the idea of you is like a real cult favorite and I love, I mean, that's a great one to kind of dig into. I mean, I also think like Jasmine's books are just like, they're just like, feel good really, but like always exploring more complex things. Mm. While also just Jasmine does such a great job of like weaving in extremely human, uh, experiences with really fun romance.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: I mean, and there's just, there's just so many, I don't know. There's so many good. I don't even, I don't consider myself an expert on this. I would say like go to the ripped bot's website and see what they're recommending because they are the experts. I mean, I also just wanna shout out like Rebecca Weatherspoon writes some of my favorite I'm I'm naming too many people. Rebecca writes really great romance. Like she had a really fun book. I think I, I have her pronouns, correct. Also, um, called Rafe. Who's a male nanny and he's like the hottest male nanny. I think he might even have an Boston accent, which really does it for me. Hello? Yeah. Like a hot gruff super kind of alpha male, but he's a nanny like Rebecca just writes some really fun. She writes sexy Cowboys. I mean, there's just, There's so much, and there's so many books. I haven't read that. I wanna read. Yeah. The charm offend. I mean, I could just go on and on. So I don't know. I'm overwhelmed by how much I love the genre slash how much there is left for me to Explore.
Doree: Well, Kate, I just, I have a, I have a, I mean, I could talk to you about this for hours, as you know.
Kate: This is real fun. I'm getting into the swing of being the guest. Now I'm really, I'm heating on. Right. I'm enjoying it. I'm finding my foot in here.
Doree: Okay. Okay. Um, do you have advice that you would give to aspiring novelists in general, but you know, romance writers in particular?
Kate: Ooh, a great question. I would say that do not worry if you feel like your idea, isn't good or it's been done before. I would say if you like the idea that you have in your brain, start playing with it and have fun with it and start writing. The only way you're gonna write a book is if you sit down and write in whatever way, you don't need to have the perfect computer or notebook or pen, you just have to write. And it is the least sexy answer in the world. Um, but that is my advice. My, my other advice would be to read reading is learning how to write when I get stuck, when I'm writing, I go and read a book that I think help me or I'll read like one of my favorite, like the hating game is one of my favorite romances and it's a really great enemies to lovers. And so I'll go in and look at how, like, how does this author tackle this? Or like, wow, what do I love about the way this person writes this? Or like, God, isn't it cool the way they did that. So I, I think you have to read. Um, but also I also think it's great to not limit yourself to just one genre. Um, because you can find, you can learn from reading all sorts of things. So I do really think that if you wanna write, you have to be reading.
Doree: I think that's great Advice,
Kate: Hard to find time to read. But that also includes like watching script, TV.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Or movies, you know?
Doree: Yeah. Great point. Great point. Well, Kate that you have just, it's like you're, you're like reading my mind.
Kate: I Know,
Doree: because my last question for you is who would play your characters in the movie?
Kate: Okay. I have to say, this is a question I've asked other writers and I find this to be incredibly hard to answer. Did you find this? Did people ask you this? When you wrote a, when you wrote startup?
Doree: Yes, they did. It's a hard question to answer.
Kate: Number one. I don't know. Most actors out there, there are so many, like these characters are about 30 years old. There's so many incredible actors in their twenties and thirties that I don't even like know about. You know, I don't know who is on euphoria. I don't know. I'm an, I, I have no time. So I am not a casting director, not educated in who, who would be my people. So I don't have an answer for this. I really don't. And I, I feel like that's a cop out. The closest I've come to kind of figuring out at a aspirational. Franny would be like Pauline Chae, But
Doree: Oh, that's
Kate: I mean, look
Doree: that Is literally perfect. Our, you nailed it.
Kate: Our lips to Netflix's ears. Oh my Yes. Call me up. Let's make this a movie.
Doree: She is 1000% Franny.
Kate: Yes. I mean, well, that's very generous of you, you know? I don't there's but, but like anybody I'll take anyone. I don't care.
Doree: I feel like Hayes is a Zac Efron. He
Kate: Could, he could do it. Okay. Fine. Doree. Fine. I'll let him be in my movie
Doree: I mean if anything I was thinking he might be a little old.
Kate: He might be a little old. What is he? Like 35. How old is Zac Efron? Let's just give him a google. 1987.
Doree: So he's 35.
Kate: He could do it. Yeah.
Doree: Do it.
Kate: And he's a handsome man.
Doree: I think he's very handsome. And I think he can play this sort of like aloof the hot aloof guy, but he's also funny. He can do comedy too.
Kate: You know what? He's very good at am. Very good in is the greatest showman, a movie I've seen a thousand times with my children.
Doree: I mean, he's also great in neighbors.
Kate: Do we love Zac Efron?
Doree: I'm not. I mean, this is not a secret.
Kate: I'm not hot for him. But I do think he's very talented.
Doree: Okay. I get it.
Doree: Yes. And I think he's very, have I mentioned that I is very handsome.
Kate: Yeah. You really I didn't know that this was your like little crush here, but this is,
Doree: It's not a crush. I don't actually like wanna have sex with Zac Efron, but I just think he is very attractive and I could see him in this role. That's all I'm Saying.
Kate: Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say no. If Zac Efron wanted to be in like a, be a, this, I mean, God, that would be a dream. Um, but I would probably leave it to a, to a casting director. I truly
Doree: Dunno fine, but I think you about It.
Kate: I do think about it. Pauline Chalamet seems kind of fun. She's got kinda like a quirky vibe to her that I'm I'm into.
Doree: Yeah, I agree.
Kate: She's great. Give me some, gimme some Chalamet.
Doree: Um, well, Kate, I mean, could this have been more delightful? I don't think so.
Kate: I mean, it was very easy for me. I didn't have to do any research on our guest today. I just, uh,
Doree: Didn't have to read anything
Kate: Just showed Up. No, no, I didn't have to read a book. I just, I just came here and that was very fun for me. Thank you for giving me the space to share my story and my work. I appreciate.
Doree: Oh gosh, truly my pleasure. Um, our listeners know where to find you, so I'm not even gonna ask that, but
Kate: I hope so.
Doree: Is there any, is there anything else you wanna mention before we say goodbye?
Kate: You know, I just wanna mention how like generous and supportive our listener community has been. Hmm, me throughout this process, it's been really, I appreciate that people have cheered me on and have read the book and just been really, you know, have preordered the book. I, I feel incredibly grateful. Um, and so I did just wanna note that I just feel very lucky that we have this amazing community of people who are like, you can do it Kate, when I feel like I can't do it, that's really special. So thank you, listeners of this podcast.
Doree: Yeah. Listeners are the best.
Kate: You're really great. I mean, we are, I'm doing a live event and people are, people are flying in, like listeners are getting on not a lot, but a couple have told me they're getting planes.
Doree: That's amazing
Kate: to attend me talking about my book. Like what?
Doree: Ugh. That's amazing.
Kate: So can't wait. I can't wait. I, I hope one day we can just do all things in real life again, someday. Yes. With all of you. Me too. Well, do I thank you again for, um, hosting me and for being such a wonderful, um, host hostess.
Doree: Oh, well thank you so much. All right, everyone Kate's book is out on Tuesday, buy it. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me. Do Shrier and Kate Spencer when she's not a guest and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, our network partners, Acast. Bye everyone.
Kate: Bye.