Episode 208: Marriage Stories with Heather Havrilesky
“I’ve basically chosen to see myself as hot until I’m dead.”
- Heather Havrilesky
Doree becomes a new version of herself with bangs and Kate connects with the moon in a way she’s never done before. Then, author Heather Havrilesky joins Forever35 to talk about the New York Times review that didn’t understand her latest book Foreveland, why glamour photoshoots should be a thing again, and why she’s dubious about (but still uses) neck creams.
Photo Credit: Willy Soma
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Transcript
Kate: Hello friends. Welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir,
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums,
Kate: Doree. We do. And if you wanna read all about the serums that we like, you can visit our website forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mention here on the show. Our Twitter is at forever35pod and our Instagram is at forever35podcast. And you can join the original forever 35 Facebook group where the password to get in is serums
Doree: Indeed. And please remember we, you can sign up for our newsletter forever35podcast.com slash newsletter. We have another issue going out tomorrow, And if you'd like to reach us, we do have a voicemail number and you can text us there at 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9 0. And our email is forever35podcast, gmail.com,
Kate: Doree. So excited to get to chat with you today because you are a new person. You're a new version of yourself. Yet you are the same Doree we know and love true, but now you are Doree with bangs.
Doree: True. I am Doree with bangs. I did it.
Kate: You did it. The listener who told me not to let you get bangs, I didn't listen to them. And I gave you whatever your heart desired. And you did it.
Doree: You told me about this listener, but I was like, I don't care.
Kate: Yeah. And I also think like, I, I truly believe you should never, I just think giving people space to do what they want with their hair is really important or with their body, like whatever, you know what I mean? Like when we get ideas in our head, it kind of like stops us and I would rather just, you would feel in your own skin and you are.
Doree: Wow. Okay. All right. Yeah. I mean, I'll, I'll cheers to that.
Kate: How does it feel? What was the journey like you got, you sat down in the salon chair and you were like, what do you think? And your stylist was like, I think, yes.
Doree: Well, so I had my hair up in a, and like a bun and she took it out and she was like, wow, your hair got really long. And I was like, I know, like my hair does grow very fast. Yeah. I don't have a lot of it, but it grows very fast. And I was like, so I'm kind of thinking bangs. And she was like, oh wow. Okay. And I showed her some pictures that I had found of hairstyles that I thought were cute. And she was like, let's do it. She was like, look, your hair goes really fast if you're, you know, I think if your hair didn't grow so fast, I would be like, I don't, you know, think about it. But she was basically like, because your hair grows so fast. Like if you decide you don't like them, it's not gonna be like a huge pain to grow them out. Yes. And I was like, that is very true. Um, so we did it and here I am with bangs
Kate: You're on the other side of things still
Doree: I'm on the other side, I'm still kind of like getting used to them, for sure. Like, I mean, of course yesterday after I left the salon, you know, and my hair was like all styled and everything. I was like, oh yeah. And today, you know, you wake up and you're like, oh yeah, like now I have to style them. I don't have like a professional doing my hair every day. Yep.
Kate: I know.
Doree: So that
Kate: Such a rude awakening. Yeah.
Doree: So, yeah. And I knew that that was coming, but I am like, okay, all right, we're doing this,
Kate: We're doing this. So did you restyle today or is this still like the lingering post style?
Doree: Um, it's a little, little bit of the lingering post style. I did put a little bit of, I have this Briogeo I think it's, they call volumizing root powder, but it's like, sort of like a dry shampoo. And I put a little bit of that in, because you know, one of the things about bangs is like, they do show kind of the greasiness of your hair sooner than the rest of your hair. You know what I mean? Oh,
Kate: I've never really had full bang, so, okay. This is a learning experience.
Doree: So you have to kind of like maintain them and then it's, it's tough because it's almost like when you have a Z and you keep touching your face. Yep,
Kate: Yep. Yep.
Doree: The more you sort of fuss with them with your hands, the grease here, they're gonna be, so you can't like do too much fusing, you know what I'm saying?
Kate: Yeah. You have to find the perfect balance of futs is what I kinda exactly.
Doree: Exactly.
Kate: You can't overdo
Doree: It. I think I also, I think I need a new brush.
Kate: Mm.
Doree: Um, so that is another thing that I'm going to look for.
Kate: And how much did you cut off? Not including the bangs, like inches from the bottom of your hair, cuz your hair is much shorter too. It looks really cool.
Doree: It is much shorter. Thank you. Um, I don't know, but I would guess probably at least like three inches.
Kate: It's funny. I'm getting a haircut tomorrow, but I think I'm just getting a, a trim in a little reshaping, but um, yeah. I'm excited to join you on this haircut journey. It's the time.
Doree: I mean, you know, it was really, it was fun to have long hair for a while. Like I hadn't had long hair in so long, but it was definitely getting like, I felt like my hair was just sort of getting like weighed down and the ends were felt kind of blah. Um, so it did feel like good and healthy to cut off a little bit.
Kate: Well, I would say this look is anything but blah, this is like the anti blah. It looks so good.
Doree: Thanks. Thanks
Kate: Kate. As I told you, you look like Jane Burkin you're Doree Burkin.
Doree: Doree Burkin that's me.
Kate: Doree Burkin.
Doree: Um, yeah, so that, that has been the big news over here. Did one more, one more thing that I, oh, did you wanna ask another bang question? I was just curious,
Kate: Like, did Henry, was he taken aback or like, did he cause you know, sometimes when you get a haircut, your children do notice this isn't drastic, but I was curious if he was like,
Doree: He definitely noticed and he was like, he was like, what are like, he's basically like, what are those? Yeah. And I was like, these are bangs. These are like, what? And I was like, those are your bangs. Cuz he has bangs also. And then he was like, where Dee does bangs. And I was like, cause he that's what he calls Matt. And um, I was like, yeah, Deda doesn't really have bangs. And he was sort of like, Hmm, okay.
Kate: Oh I love the name Deda
Doree: I know he's just very cute right now. Um, so you were
Kate: Saying the other thing.
Doree: I was saying one other thing. So I did mention that I had bought the float duo from 100 Senses and I did take a bath with them and I was like, this is great. And then a couple nights ago I was like, I wanna take a bath with my floaties, but I wanna like up my bath game. So here's what I did. I stole some of Henry's honest company, unscented bubble bath. Okay. And I put it in, I lit a candle. I like it. And then in addition to real candle that I lit, I also put, I also, um, turned on some of my L E D candles. Oh, okay. For some atmosphere. And then I got my little, I took my little Bluetooth speaker into the bathroom and I found a playlist on Spotify that was like spa music, 20, 22. And I was like, okay.
Kate: Okay,
Doree: Perfect. So I turned off the lights. I turned on, my candles lit, lit the candle obviously, um, turned on my spa music and got into the bath, the bubble bath. And it was great. I also finally sort of figured out optimal temperature. So it wasn't like scaling hot, which was good. Good. Um, but yeah, it was extremely relaxing. I highly recommend
Kate: You've really stepped up your bath game in the course of a week.
Doree: I know, I know. Well, you know, I had all of the cuz I, you know, I had done the L E D candle bath before for like a long time ago and then I had kind of like abandoned it, but the spa music was an extra fun touch. I really
Kate: IM glad you're taking care of yourself in this way. Sounds and
Doree: The bubble bath is also fun. I think I'm gonna look into like some fancy Bubble. I do just have to be a little bit careful because my skin is kind of sensitive. So I don't want anything like too much like artificial sense and stuff. Yeah. So gonna gonna see what what's available.
Kate: I have some ideas for your birthday then coming up.
Doree: Well, well, well, um, Kate, you have, you also have some fun, big news.
Kate: I have like 50 updates and I need to like kind of space them out over the course of the next week. Cuz I feel like I could just talk for like 50 hours about what is going on in my life.
Doree: Okay. Okay. Okay.
Kate: Well I'm going to get a mammogram in a couple hours, so I will report back. It's my third one. I'm very excited. Uh, I, I like taking care of myself in this way. You know, it's always like a little scary we're or like what could it reveal? Um, but that's the whole point and uh, I'm excited to be taking care of my boobs. Um, but I also like kind of piggybacking on how I was sharing, how I did a breathwork class. Um, on zoom last week I attended a moon circle and it was for the full moon that happened. Um, it'll be last week at this point, um, a few days ago and a friend just initiated it. They offered to kind of hold the, you know, they had a space, they had a, they had like an, um, art studio and invited a small group group and, and they led the kind of, um, ritual and the conversation and it was really, really wonderful. Um, and I just, you know, I was, I have really been drawn to trying to figure out like, what is my spiritual path? What are my spiritual beliefs? What,
Kate: And, and like, what am I, what am I connected to on a higher level other than just like expectation and aspiration and like grinding for a career, you know, like what, what is truly like, what are truly my values as a human outside of just like, I don't know, the external stuff. I've been really thinking a lot about this. So, and this is kind of in addition to kind of learning about like my own confidence and growing my own self-esteem and like healing past traumas. I mean, geez, it's a lot, but this was a really lovely, um, kind of addition to that. And also it was really, really amazing to be around other people, friends and acquaintances. Um, we all had to share a negative COVID test and it was masked, you know, except when we were like ING and drinking tea. Um, so it felt, you know, like everybody's boundaries were respected. Um, but it was just a really, really special, uh, thing to get to do it. It felt really great.
Doree: That's so nice. It
Kate: Was really nice now. Like I don't particularly feel like a, a deep connection to the moon.
Kate: Sure. I am a cancer. I am a cancer and I am supposed to be like deeply connected. I am intrigued by like the way that the, the moon cycle and my menstrual cycle line up. And I think that happens for a lot of folks. Um, and I think that is fascinating. And there are like people who really, uh, kind lean into that and I, I need to do more digging, but, um, just the like sh being in communion with people, sharing intentions and feelings and writing down kind of like past beliefs and releasing them by burning them in a fire was extremely sad. And we each had a candle
Doree: That's so nice.
Kate: And, and my friend had set out all a big bowl of Hershey's kisses. And I was like, this is what I need. I eat like 17. Her Hershey's kisses are like self-care and a chocolate.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: So I will share some of my other updates. And then on a future episode, I will also just add, tease a little tease, but I will add that, um, you know, I am in the pre-order phase of my book release. Uh, there will be a link if you would like to predo pre-order a personalized or signed copy of my book. You have to do that before March 15th. And I will scribble on in there for you. Um, there's a link in the show notes to do that, but I, you know, I've joked about signing my name with an eggplant and a listener of the
Doree: Podcast.
Kate: I don't think we even know their name. Did they include a name?
Doree: No, they didn't. There was no note.
Kate: Okay. So I can't even write a thank you note to this person. They
Doree: Sent it to our PO box.
Kate: So I get this text from Doree. That's like, you're gonna die. I just picked up our mail, the PO box and you have a package. And I was, and she was like, you were like, do you want me to open it? I was like, yes, obviously I don't know what it is. And it
Doree: Also also, oh, also, I don't think I told you this. It was adressed to Kate Horse Spencer,
Kate: Someone who knows me very well. And this person sent me an eggplant stamp. So if
Doree: You would like
Kate: That included my God in a signed copy of my new romantic comedy in a New York minute, please let me know. And I will stamp my little heart out. Thank you to whoever sent this to me.
Doree: I know it looked like it came, um, directly from like Etsy.
Kate: Yeah. So it's funny someone else in my, in Instagram dams was like, you should get this eggplant stamp. I think they must be listening to the podcast. And I went right back and be like, guess what? LOL, I already got it. Someone sent it to me. I never received mail through the podcast before from a, this was so exciting. So thank you very much.
Doree: Thank you. It's very cool.
Kate: Well, Doree, we have a really wonderful conversation coming up. I think we should. We probably wanna dig right into it. Don't you
Doree: Think? Yeah, I think we do.
Kate: Cause we talked for a long time with today's guest.
Doree: We did. We did.
Kate: Oh baby today's guest sometimes known as ask Paul is Heather Havilesky? Have I said her last name wrong. Heather Havilesky
Doree: Heather Havilesky
Kate: Heather Havilesky. I mean, Heather is, I would say like a real legend of the internet writing space and also the print writing space,
Doree: Yes. For sure.
Kate: Um, she writes the very popular ask poly advice column, which is on Substack and her new book is called Foreverland. What if this were enough? And it's all about marriage and her marriage. And is it good?
Doree: Yeah, it's really interesting.
Kate: Yeah. Um, she's also written How To Be A Person In The World and Disaster Preparedness and her work and, you know, has been in the New Yorker, the Atlantic New York Times magazine and PR all things considered. Um, she lives in Durham, North Carolina with her husband and her two daughters and two dogs. And we had a really, really interesting conversation with her. I loved it. Um, and then of course at the end she did share some skincare products, some of which were very new to us. So that is an exciting conclusion to the conversation.
Doree: Yep. It was so great. All right. So we are gonna take a short break and when we come back, we will be talking to Heather.
Doree: We are so excited to have Heather Havilesky here on Forever5, Heather, welcome to the pod. It feels like I, I can't believe it's been so like, I can't believe it's taken us so long to have you on the show, but I'm glad that we are having you on the show. Now
Heather: I feel the same way. I mean, where, where have you been?
Doree: I don't know.
Heather: I've been waiting outside your studio for, I don't know, few years now. I
Doree: Mean, so this is my fault. Thank you for having me.
Kate: This is Doree's. Yeah, this is Doree's fault. Yes.
Doree: This is my fault. Yes. So I accept full responsibility. Um, but I'm just really glad that we could finally make it happen. Heather, we both loved your new book. I mean, I think, I think say Kate, I don't wanna speak for you, but I do. It's safe to say that we've both been big fans of your work for years and years and years.
Kate: The fact, You know, my name is like what it's very exciting
Doree: For quite some time,
Heather: Everyone listening is like, whoa, who is this person?
Doree: And Heather also, uh, makes a, came in my book. So, you know, just, just FYI, everyone
Heather: I love Doree's Book. I, I was so thrilled when I got to the hard about me.
Doree: It was a, you know, it was a pivotal moment. It was a pivotal moment giving
Heather: It I'm giving life advice works.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's something that you do very well. Um, but you know, we do like to start off by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So talk to us. What are you doing these days that you would categorize as self-care?
Heather: Okay, well, um, there's the average everyday self-care I would say is tied directly into my treadmill desk. I have a treadmill desk. I write while walking in the morning there. I mean, I, I twisted my ankle on year's day, so I couldn't do it for a month. And my state of mind deteriorated quickly. Wow. Last summer I moved from LA to North Carolina. I could not use my treadmill desk for about a month. Um, if you look at ask Molly, my website, that's, it's the evil twin of ask poll writes newsletter. Um, you'll see evidence that my, um, mental health is deteriorating in August and September after our move. And so the treadmill desk is just like this baseline of even if I don't work out or do anything else I'm, I'm walking while I'm writing. And it's, um, I don't know. It's weird to call it self-care but cuz it's this giant ugly thing in my office that it messes up my whole office, my office can't be cool at all.
Heather: It's just a big, ugly mess, but it really makes a difference in my life now self care right now because I'm promoting a book is a little different. And right now I have this thing that I'm saying to myself, which is be gentle with yourself. I'm saying this to myself a lot to the point where I'm annoyed with myself, that I'm saying this to myself so much, but in those moments when you are feeling kind of punitive towards yourself and you're not at your best and you're stressed out and you're sort of like running from one thing to the next, maybe every single thing you do, isn't going perfectly. I know it's hard for either of you to imagine such a reality. Cause you're both perfect of course, but you know, I find myself having to say to myself, be gentle, take a nap. If you need to do you need a snack?
Heather: Do you need to sit down? Maybe you shouldn't be walking. Maybe you should sit. Um, do you need a little walk outside? What do you need like that? Which when you're at your worst, interestingly, you often punish yourself as if you're messing up. When what you need is a good mommy to say, um, do you need something? Do you need a little help? What do you need here? So I've been doing that and it's working really well. Feel good about that? Cause I've been under quite a bit of stress for a few months and it's I'm managing it. It's okay. I just keep saying, if this is an adventure, if it doesn't feel like an adventure, sit down, take a nap, have a rest. Um, so that's my that's self here.
Kate: I love your mantra of be gentle. Um, especially because with a book coming out, especially one that's nonfiction. So personal, I mean, forever land is about marriage and specifically your marriage and you're kind of experiencing and I mean, perhaps this is not the case, but when it's a, a review about a book that is about your life, I feel like that must be extra challenging to kind of navigate, you know, you're receiving either positive or negative feedback about something this personal, um, did that kind of, did that mantra kind of come out of that experience or was it more just the rush of trying to get everything done and wanting to do it perfectly
Heather: Well? Okay. So the, I have another mantra for that experience. Oh, life is just a series of mantras. Um, when the New York times excerpt of my book came out and people, I mean, but the, the chapter that they excerpted was about anger. Um, it made a lot of people angry that I was so angry at my husband and that I, you know, mocked him in a public place to our, everyone could read about it. And I was being extremely mean to him by doing this. Um, the, that chapter in the book comes very late in the book. You sort of understand the relationship pretty well by then. Um, but since then, it's, it actually was a good thing for me. Cause it, it came out about a month before the book came out, it came out over Christmas and the book came out on February 8th. Um, so I kind of had to adjust to, to this idea that a lot of people thought I was gross and my relationship was terrible and I should get a divorce immediately. Um, there's a way that I, sorry.
Doree: Were you, were you, were you surprised? Yeah. Were you surprised by this reaction?
Heather: A tiny bit, I mean I had, I have been saying to bill for a while, just wait, it's gonna be bad because I mean, the book has anger and it has ambivalence in it. And I have a whole chapter about a crush that I developed, um, while I was writing the book, which is awesome. Um, and, and so, um, you know, I started to notice that people are very judgemental and moralistic about, about marriage and about other people's marriages, which I, I sort of knew because that was one of my motivations for writing a very realistic, very inside view of my marriage. Um, but I also didn't know that something, I mean, when I read something that I think is funny, it usually, I'm not usually mad at the person who wrote it. I'm usually like, yay that, you know, you, you might not be that up in your marriage, but it sure did make for a good ride.
Heather: You know, it's sort of why the way I would feel about it. Um, I think so I was surprised at how many people were outraged and, and offended by, um, by my, but my feelings about my marriage and, you know, my husband, uh, loves that chapter and laughed the first time he saw it. And he, you know, and I, it included all of the sneezing. I mean, actually the version in the book is a little bit, has a little bit more flam it, in fact. Um, so, so, so I was, I was surprised I was surprised, but throughout the last month I sort of had some time to think about, um, what I've done reflect on my back I choices. And I, it's sort of like, I can't usually I can find reasons why I should feel humiliated and I can find reasons to punish myself for what I've done.
Heather: Um, I don't have any trouble doing that, but in this case I love this book a lot. I just feel like I, I worked on it so hard and edited it so many times and made sure that it was concise and vivid and funny. And I, I, I wanted to make sure that you understood who I was and who my husband was and what the relationship was made of. And I think that that's, it's all there. And so, um, and I, and I also feel like the book serves a purpose right now. And, um, our views of romantic love are so black and white and so, uh, unrealistic sometimes and so extreme. Um, and I, so I, I feel, I, you know, as I've sat with the criticism, I don't know, it's kind of strengthened my phase in the book. I, it sounds kind of ridiculous and, and annoying, but I, I feel very at peace with what I've created and I don't feel uncomfortable with people knowing me.
Heather: I don't think I'd be a writer if I didn't wanna be known. And I do feel like this book is a, gives you a very, if you read the whole book, which is like always a question, whether anyone will read the whole book, but if you read the whole book, I think you get clear understanding of who I am as a person. I think it's a very clear snapshot of me and a pretty clear snapshot of bill, my husband, and, um, I'm comfortable. I know that we don't seem perfect or amazing or admirable in many ways, but, um, but I do think that we, but I do think it's an accurate reflection of who we are are, and that feels good to me, you know? Um, so, so yeah, I think that my mantra this month has been, uh, remember what you made, you know, don't take a misunderstanding of who you are or what you made and feel shame about that. Remember what, who you actually are and what you actually made. You know, if you don't have shame about those things, then you shouldn't be feeling shame just because someone misapprehended who you are or what your intentions were, or,
Doree: You know, it feels like the response to your excerpt. Like some of the response that I saw on social media and then also the New York times review, um, which
Doree: Was really, really something. Um, I, both those reactions, those reactions both sort of seemed like of a piece to me. And they both seemed almost like a willful misunderstanding of what you were writing about, um, the nature of your marriage and who you are. Um, and a lot of it also, I mean, it's, especially the times review felt very gendered. Um, and I, I thought you did a really great, like nice and graceful job of rebutting that review on social media, which is a really hard thing to do as an author, because we're supposed to just sort of sit there and like take the criticism when like, sometimes the criticism is really. And like, I thought that like that review is really unfair for many reasons. Um, but okay. And that's when my, like, rant about that. Yeah. Um, but I'm wondering why you think, like, why do some people, and I clearly some men in particular feel so threatened by this book because that was, I mean, that was what I kinda took away. That was what I took away. Especially from the times review, like this is a person who is like deeply uncomfortable with even exploring these notions that you write about
Heather: You. Yeah. I mean, um, I think that people are uncomfortable in general with women who are ambivalent about marriage and, or sometimes about children. I'm not that ambivalent about children. Um, but I think when women are a little bit superior, a little bit arrogant, a little bit critical of men. I, you know, when I, when I read that review, what I feel and hear is a kind of panic at being secretly criticized. Mm. Um, and you know, that's an understandable sensation, certainly. But the, the focus in that book, in that book review is very squarely on how my husband must feel about the book. Yeah. Which if you think about, um, books by men about men, you know, memoirs by men about themselves, it's hard to imagine someone focusing on how the wife of, you know, a man might, might be feeling, I don't know, it's, it's the anxiety that's obvious.
Heather: And, but the pieces that were a reaction that were written in reaction to the excerpt and the review, um, are they they're they match each other? It's like, yeah, yeah, this is not done. This is not how it's supposed to be done. And the irony of the fact that there, these are male writers who are saying this, who are asserting that when a woman speaks about her feelings, it's it she's revealing an, a, a gross secret that she should keep to herself. But when a man does it, it's cool. And it's just, we're just not even remarkable. It's not even, you wouldn't even think to say, keep that to yourself. You'd say, oh, this is called literature, actually. Um, yeah. It feels misogynistic to me and J you know, it's, to me, it just feels like a piece of the whole, of our culture, which is constantly, uh, asserting that for women, the most important thing is to be polite and to feed into the background and to do what's appropriate. Yeah. And men are the bold ones who get to charge forward and, and be wild and be applauded for it. Um,
Doree: And the sort of undercurrent of like, we should be grateful.
Heather: Oh yeah, here you have this perfectly nice husband. Right. Who Loves you. You stupid bitch.
Doree: Yeah. Yeah.
Heather: What are you doing?
Doree: I mean, essentially. Yeah. It's like, it's so gross
Heather: And we're supposed to become more and more grateful as we get older too. It's not just, it's like when your mother, you sh you know, suddenly it's inappropriate to dress a certain way. It's inappropriate to talk a certain way. Don't pull the focus on yourself. It's always about your kids. Um, otherwise, what are you doing? What's your problem. And then as you get older, uh, your hair has to be a certain length and what's appropriate for your age. And why are you showing that much leg? And I started to hear this stuff, I don't know, 10 years ago. And I suddenly, I mean, even my husband would, my husband is about as feminist in egalitarian as it gets, but he said something about someone at school once about how they were dressed like a kid or a teenager. And I was like, the, are you talking?
Heather: Went off. I was like, why can't she dress? Like, whatever she looks great. What are you talking about? Like how, how is a, I'm supposed to dress in your mind? Are we just like, we become non people, subhuman, half persons as Elizabeth Spears once memorably put it. I mean, I don't under, I don't really understand. And the more that I come across that message, the more determined I am to make a spectacle of myself, because I'm like, this is not, you know, this is not the world. I want my daughters to grow up in, into, you know, it's, I can't even believe we're here at this point. We're in the middle of a pandemic, you know, and people are stressing out about my, my, you know, anger at my husband. I, you know, it's, it's, I, I don't know, whatever it's, it's, it's shocking. Really, when you look at it, plainly
Kate: I think you, in the book, you do such a nice job. Kind of like you talk about the disappearance, uh, of pregnant women, how they essentially just D you know, they're forced to kind of fade to the background and, uh, everything becomes about the child that they're carrying. And, and then kind of juxtaposing that with the chapter at the end, where you talk about how you were just doing all this stuff to kind of, uh, feed your desires, like be public, be as ridiculous as you can possibly be to kind of feel a, feel, something, feel alive. I, I, I, I, that resonated deeply with me because there is this kind of experience as a woman, both as a mother and also someone just aging, where you're just kind of like, oh, okay, well, you're, bye. You're done. And it's like, yeah, but don't, where's my agency in this. Like what I wanna have a say in, in my place in things. And I just thought it was really interesting the way you kind of wove that through the whole book.
Heather: Yeah. You know, the, the, the parts about, I think, because I, I think once I decided to keep the crush chapter, uh, which was a struggle, I mean, I was embarrassed by that chapter. You know, now I'm not embarrassed by it because it feels, I don't know. I like the way the chapter turned it out. I think it's really funny. Um, and it just, I think I, I believe that it's relatable to a lot of people and it, it,
Kate: For me relatable. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. And it, it opened up some space in my marriage to just, uh, to, to have a conversation about what we both wanted from our lives and how we wanted to live. And it, it also on a improved my sex life a lot with my husband. And so, um, it felt important to keep it in there. And luckily bill is incredibly confident about my love for him and is not that worried about people knowing about that episode in our lives. But I think that, um, but when I decided to keep that chapter, I ended up could in the chapter, um, aging viciously, which I'd originally written for the cut, um, I ended up integrating integrating that into the book. And then there are two other chapters that are sort of about middle aged cheer. Um, and yeah, the cheer chapters a little bit, oh about like looks and waking up and feeling ugly and trying to, you know, and just wanting to be beautiful in spite of everything, which I think is just, I mean, it sounds so kind of sad and weird, but, um, but it's also just a normal thing for a woman to feel, and it's not, once you sort of acknowledge it.
Heather: I don't know. I feel like rat with, uh, with aging and looks head on and understanding how your feelings about your body and your face and your, your, your place in the world, uh, understanding how the, these things are changing and understanding when they get warped. And when you're saying to yourself, I look like Walter math out. Now I'm putting makeup on Walter math out space. This is terrible. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's relaxing to under it's, it's good to know what you're dealing with, you know, cause there's a way that if you try to keep it at bay or like, I look good, I look fine. Um, that's bad. But by the same token, I think when you under, you also start to see how warped your perception of yourself can be on a bad day, just like a teenager, right. Where you're like, hold on a second.
Heather: I had this phase where I thought I would look in the mirror and I'd say, God, I'm just so used to seeing what's to paying attention to what's wrong. Like, there's my dumb nose. Again. I used to make these sounds at myself. I've gotten so much better looking to myself since I learned to train those things out of my perception where I just say, I have a nice nose. Like I, you know, my profile's a little bit strong, but I look good. I look healthy. I mean, I just learned to talk to myself differently, um, in my late forties. And, and then, you know, I had cancer. I had, uh, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not really talking about, I don't know if I'm ever gonna talk about or write about the specifics about cancer, but there was a lot of body image stuff that went into my cancer treatment.
Heather: And, um, and it was interesting to find that I had done so much work upfront on my self-esteem that I actually wasn't that threatened by this major thing that happened to me that, you know, that could have really shaken me to the core. It, I was, there were bad things about it. There were terrible things about it. But my, my, my, uh, my vanity and my sort of confidence did not flag that much. It didn't, it didn't suffer that much, which felt really good. I mean, I, I think it's, I feel like you can, there are a lot of different ways of aging obviously, and you can take one of any number of paths that will make you happy. Um, but I feel like for me, uh, I've basically chosen to see myself as hot until I'm dead and it's, and it's okay. You know, it's just like, it, it's kind of working out so far. Um, I it's like a, it's like a, it's like a commitment, right. A commitment to enjoying what I have. Mm. And moisturizing a lot,
Kate: Course. Look, We joke, but that is a very important step in the life process. Um, I, I think that's, I love that. And also, you know, I, I like the idea of kind of convincing, not convincing yourself that you're hot, but that kind of shift in mind frame. Um, but also who's to say that we're not, you know, it's, that's a, yeah. I dunno. That's just a powerful example.
Heather: It, it, you know, it's sort of like you say, instead of, because I think that the, okay, so I think that the alternative is you assume that you're not ha anymore because you're a certain, right. So I'm 51. And I, I just think that that's how a lot of people walk around. They just say, I'm not, I'm not hot anymore. Nobody notices me. I'm invisible now. I mean, I don't even like the narrative of, we all turn invisible after a certain age. I just think it's weird and it's, I understand the feeling. Mm. But I don't think it helps to walk around telling each other that we're invisible now and it's all over. I actually kind of think, I mean, I notice, um, I feel like I'm more attuned to how beautiful the women I know are now than I was when I was younger. Mm. Um, and
Kate: Yes, I know exactly what you mean.
Heather: There are a lot of different yeah. Ways of aging that look good, you know, you can choose a lot of different things and look great. And so it's almost like you're shifting, you're not just shifting your story that you tell yourself. You're also shifting the way that you, the frame, the lens through which you see the world a little bit.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, I feel like you and I have had a lot of these conversations, um, and I was just thinking about how this is like, not really a question, more, just a comment about how, when my last book came out, you and I had this whole conversation about author photos.
Heather: Oh yeah.
Doree: And you were like, you have to get good author photos. You have to get, you know, like you just have this whole thing. And I had like, not really thought about it, but you had amazing author photos. And, and it just, I don't know. It just, so first of all, thank you. But also like, How did, how did you kind of come to realize that, like, that was something that you wanted to invest like time and money in?
Heather: Well, um, I saw someone's author photo and I asked her about it and I, you know, she had a really good photo. It was sort of like, not, I mean, mine, the one that I use, which I, I had intended to, um, update it, but COVID stood in the way, a few different times I had all these different, um, so it feels a little old, which is a little, a bit annoying. Um, my hair, color's a little different. I mean, it's a, it's a bummer not to have an updated one. Cause you kind of feel like you're, you know, you're giving the impression of trying to trick people into thinking you're, you know, four years younger than you are five years younger than you are. But, um, but so I, there was, there was someone I knew who had a great photo and it was actually a little bit less like mine is a little bit almost like, is that an author photo?
Heather: Or is that like a fashion shoot that you did? Um, which I kind of liked. I had, I, I basically got an author photo done and I looked like Apollo in it. I had this look on my face. This was a very casual author photo I had done. I looked like I was saying, I'm apologizing for myself. Like, oh, sorry, sorry. You're taking a photo of me. Sorry, I'm here. I know I stupid. My hair looked bad. I didn't do my makeup at all. I was wearing like a coat. I just looked terrible. I actually, and I looked fine. I just didn't look the way I wanted to look. And so I asked this woman and she told, not only told me you should hire this, this photographer that I used, who's a friend of mine. But she said, she also gave me her entire makeup routine, which I had no makeup routine the time.
Heather: And I, and she said, get this NARS lip pencil, and then use primer before you put on foundation. Like all these thing, all these technologies had changed since I last cared about makeup. And so I did all the things and actually what happened was I had a ritual of, I used to get ready for author event and say to myself, you don't know what you're doing. Look at, this is a mess. Look how bad you look. You know, like as I put on a little more makeup than usual, which if you're not used to putting on a line of makeup, you put it on badly. So I was looking in the mirror going, oh God, like I would get ready for interviews telling myself I was ugly the whole time, which is I do not recommend. And so I, I developed this new makeup routine where I do it and I would say it doesn't look very good right now, but when you're done, it always seems to work.
Heather: Like I just say, like in the end it tends to look okay. So just, you know, hold your breath through the, the makeup on part. It might be okay. And now I use the same. I basically use the same products. I did, you know, when she told me about this in like 2017 or 16. And so, um, part of the, so I didn't really know how much will it change my opinion of my self to have this photo. My God. It's like it. It's a whole different world. When you have one photo. That's good of you. You think of yourself as being capable of being that hot. I mean, it's, it sounds absurd and so shallow, but there was a way that just my entire book tour that I had around that book was improved by the fact that a new article would come up and there was my hot photo.
Heather: And, and I was like, yeah. I mean, like even this New York times review that was so harsh has that same photo at the top of it. And it says, Heather Helesky compares her husband to a heap of laundry. And so I thought like, this is gonna be a pan. I bet a man wrote it. And then I was like, but I look hot. And they used my name. You know, like you sort of, you sort of, kind of feel like you've made it when they actually use your name in the headline instead of woman. Right?
Kate: Yeah.
Heather: So I was like, there's my name? There's my name. Maybe I'll have name recognition after 30 years of writing. Who knows? Um, yeah, it's, it's all kind of shallow, but it adds up to the ability to walk out the door and say, God it. I'm a person with idea is, and I don't need to be embarrassed to myself. You know? I mean, so many celebrities do this 15 times a day. They manage their image perfectly. And now we're all in the same boat in some ways, because we all have to promote everything constantly. We're all sort of exposed to each other. Every single, almost every interview I've done has had video and a video element involved. It's intense to be a writer. Who's you think of your life as being in some dark closet and then all of a sudden you've gotta go out and show your face.
Kate: It is. Yeah. It's so weird.
Heather: It's really weird. It's it's like, you gotta have an angle on some of this stuff where you just feel like, oh my God, you know, what am I doing? I don't belong in this realm, especially as you get older, you know? So yeah.
Kate: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Heather: I, I love telling people to get a really good photo done. Even if you're not in any kind of business, just do it for yourself. You can pull it up and say, yeah, yeah.
Doree: I Mean, That's, wasn't that like what glamor shots used to be like people or like just getting like a really nice, yeah. Like a lot of times I think they were just doing it for themselves. Like we, we should, I think you're right. Like we should bring that back.
Kate: Well, and that's interesting too, in the world now of social media, where everything you post online is essentially for others to digest, right? Like something like glamor shots you were doing possibly for yourself to make yourself feel good. And to like relish that sexy made up side of yourself. So I, what I hear you saying, Doree is bring back glamor shots.
Doree: I'm saying we should all Open glamor shots franchises is what I'm saying.
Kate: The nineties are in right now.
Doree: Yes, let's do it.
Heather: I could see going to a place, especially if a really good makeup artist was working there. Maybe not the traditional glamor shots.
Kate: Yes.
Heather: Types. And just like getting your makeup perfectly done with the black liquid eyeliner that you don't know how to put on yourself.
Kate: Oh, totally.
Heather: Does anyone know how to put that stuff on? Do you, do you two know
Kate: I'm starting to,
Doree: Kate is learning.
Kate: I'm learning, but it's oh
Heather: Man.
Kate: Makeup is so strange. The assumption that we all will just easily know how to use our hands to paint our bodies, you know, it's like, it's that there's such a learning and such a skill involved. And there's a reason there are professionals who do it. Uh, and I it's taking me months to just kind of figure out how to make a straight line on my eyelid.
Heather: Yeah. Can you close? I'm getting there. You have to close one eye to do it. My daughter is, uh, 15 and she's a makeup expert because she goes on TikTok. I don't know. Where do they learn? Makeup things. TikTok.
Kate: TikTok. TikTok.
Heather: Yeah. It's like little tutorials. So she looks incredible. So I, sometimes I go to her and say, um, what am I doing wrong?
Heather: And she'll kind of fill me in it's weird kids, kids. You know, when I was in, uh, when I was her age, I had, um, you know, some, I mean, I think there were like four tones of coverup and they were all bad, you know? And so it was like, you were putting some, a white arrow right next to your zip so everyone could see where it was like over here. So yeah. I'm thankful for, and new makeups of, of today. I used to not moisturize it all. And now I'm like a, a fishy auto
Kate: Stress me out, Heather. OK.
Heather: Moisture. I know. I looked not so good in those days. Um, so I do like this stuff. I know you all know about lotion P 50
Kate: P 50. Oh yeah. You classic
Heather: Stanky. Now the thing that I wonder about this is when you, when you squeeze it out, it's so hard to squeeze. Are they all like this to get it to
Kate: Yeah. They, they, I think because I, I think they really don't want you to be using like a too of it at once. Yeah. So they, the only
Heather: Way
Kate: Shake it out,
Heather: Shake it out
Doree: Drip. drip.Yeah.
Heather: Feel like, but you're also supposed to put her on a pad right.
Doree: On a pad. Yeah. Yes.
Heather: I just find that seems so such a Dr. A minuscule amount. So I just put it in my Palm and put it directly on my face. Do you think that's wrong?
Kate: Oh, no. I think that's fine personally.
Heather: I feel like I get more of the product on my face that way. Okay. This is the stuff I really wanna talk about. Okay. This, I, I, I like this next stuff. New firm. You tried this, This neck and I dunno how say that decollate tightening cream. Next thing. Do we, can we tell if they're working? I can't
Doree: That kind of, I feel like they're kind of like eye creams.
Kate: Yeah. Doree. Exactly.
Doree: They're a little fake, but could they be real?
Kate: Like we wanna believe in the hope of them being real.
Heather: If it, you don't. Don't the really, honestly, the only thing that I like about this stuff is it says neck on it. And I'm like, I put this on my neck. It helps my neck, um, that I don't know about results with this, this stuff. I love fresh black tea farming, overnight mask. Have you ever used this? Ooh,
Doree: No.
Heather: This stuff is amazing.
Heather: It smell so good. So I love that reaction. I like woo. It smells amazing. I, there was a while where I just lathered this on every night. Now I do it only once a week, but there was a time when I feel like I wake up looking the best. When I use this stuff at night, this stuff is okay. The best. Okay. Now the most, the, the re real, the real kicker though, is this stuff. Two things, flora and BA age adapting, facial serum. Have you ever heard of this cannabis? Ooh.
Kate: I'm oh, okay. This is, is it C B D oil or Cannabis oil?
Heather: No. It says seven 50 milligrams, 33 milligram CBC. I was not so long. Anything about putting cannabis oil on my face. It smells like a bong hit. When you open it up a really fresh, delicious green bong hit. But this stuff is, if you have rosacea, which I do, this is the, this is the stuff. Now I started with this and I it's very oily. And I really like the, the oiliness of it actually. And the smell of it. I love the smell of it. Okay. But this stuff clarifying facial treatment by floor and vest. Also this stuff, I swear, I haven't broken out since I bought this stuff. It's re it's retinol C D C B. I don't even know what CBG is. This guy owns this company and he, he's kind of like a, um, mastermind of cannabis. Okay. And which sounds like BS, but I swear to you, these products, these two products, they're like $75 each. They last like three months. I'm you? This one? Brand Flora and BA it's, F, L O R a and B a S T. Okay. You can only buy it on their site or one other place is, I mean, you, you would think I have some kind of sponsorship from these people because
Heather: I leave reviews. Love you. You know, like, I wanna be like a spokesperson for them, basically. Not because, um, I don't, I'm never gonna do that, but I do. I love, I I'm telling you this. Okay. I'm just babbling. Now this stuff is so good. If you, if you break out, I wanna see if it, I wanna see if it works for you guys too. Somebody was
Doree: I Can't see. I can't really see what it is. It's like blurry for me.
Kate: You see, oh, I see. It's the flora and bass Facial clarifying.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Retinol. It has 1% re oh, excuse me. Retinoic acid. 300 milligrams. C a hundred milligrams. C B G. Okay.
Heather: Okay.
Kate: It's and you can get this clarifying facial duo for $121 on their website. And now, you know, heading over to my cart.
Heather: It's it, it makes your face look like it's both less red and blotchy and more awake and dewy.
Kate: Mm.
Heather: Like you just, your skin looks all mm. Fresh and dewy and good.
Doree: Heather, where can our listeners find you if they want to kind of follow you and your work?
Heather: I have, uh, ask poll now lives on Substack. Um, and so that's askpolly.subtack.com and I publish twice a week. Um, usually I have, I've been interviewing authors a little, little bit, and I sometimes write sort of standalone pieces about, um, about, uh, figuring out how to live and feel good. And, uh, in spite of all the madness around us. Um, and then I also have, um, my newsletter ask Molly, that's a little stranger. Sometimes it's a bit, uh, like personal essays, other times. It's just strange pros about imaginary things. Um, but I think it's kind of a fun ride. Um, and that publishes about three or four times a month.
Doree: Heather. This was great. We love you. Thank you for coming on the show.
Heather: Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Doree: Ugh, Heather, Heather,
Kate: You know, I don't like, I, I feel like I project this a lot, our guests, but she is like real role model energy for me.
Doree: Oh, totally right. Yes. Like
Kate: She's just a little like real big sister. Like, yes. I wish it was the eighties. And I was like sitting in her bedroom, listening to her. Tell me about high school. You know, I feel like she would've had a lot of good opinions.
Doree: Oh my gosh. Right? Yes. You in the so list, right? Like high school,
Kate: You sit in like your training bra and just hear every, hear her wisdom.
Doree: Oh my gosh. Yes.
Kate: I, I, I thought I thought her book was fantastic. I loved it so much and was so interesting to read in light of that New York times review where it felt like the author of that review didn't even read the book. Quite frankly.
Doree: It, it seemed like he read a totally different book. It
Kate: Was so strange to me after first reading that review and then reading her book, I was like, did we read the same thing?
Doree: Yeah, it was so weird.
Kate: It was so weird. Goes to show though, to me, that actually is a good lesson just for myself of like other people's, like everybody is gonna have a different opinion about your work. And none of them matter. My rave doesn't matter anymore, or less than that. Dude's
Doree: It just sucks. It, I, it does just suck when it's in like the New York times, which is, you know, has such a wide distribution and is, I feel like often considered like the last, it's not like their book room views have such an outsized influence on the industry. So in that sense, I did really feel for her because that it was just totally an unfair review, in my opinion.
Kate: I agree. I concur and let it be known that the forever 35 review, which I would say we are on equal footing, if not more superior the than the New York times book review Is a positive one.
Doree: Yes, indeed.
Kate: All right. Well, Dodo, tell me last week. Yes. Your intention was piano.
Doree: Yeah. So I actually did do a lot of practicing last week.
Kate: Just on your own. Love it. What are you working on right now? Is, do you work on like a specific song or do you work on like chords or is it everything chords? They're not called chords. Are they scales? There's chords.
Doree: Okay. Scales. Yeah. They're scales. Um, I'm working on, I'm currently working on, uh, like two main pieces. Um, the there, hold on, lemme just make sure I have the right name for this. Yes. Okay. So I'm working on two pieces. One is, um, box invention and E major, which is I'm. I'm like, I've pretty much mastered that I might start memorizing it, but that one is like, sort of done. And then, um, I'm also doing a, oh, I'm also working on Schubert's impromptu in G flat major. Wow. Which I don't know if I will actually finish it's very long. Um, and it's not like my favorite, like I think my teacher chose it to sort of be like an interesting challenge. Um, and then there's an old Sina that I had worked on with my previous teacher, but what's been fun is I decided to memorize the first movement. So now I just sort of use that to warm up and that's been really fun. Oh, do I love that? Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. So that's what I'm working on. If that means anything to anyone. Um, and this week, so last night I did a 20 minute yoga class on the Peloton app before bed and it was great. And I was like, oh yeah, restorative yoga. It's great.
Doree: Like a thing that I knew who knew and, well, I mean, I knew it, but I forgotten it sort of. Um, and then I was like, I should just be doing this more regularly. Like what is wrong with me? Um, and so, yeah, I don't wanna like make any, you know, promises, like I'm gonna do it every day, but I do want to work on it.
Kate: All right. Can't can we, you do another one?
Doree: Like, yeah, well,
Kate: We'll see. I just did one this morning and I hadn't practiced yoga in so long and it felt great.
Doree: Mm.
Kate: I like to do more of it. I'll work on it.
Doree: Okay. All right. What about you, Kate?
Kate: Okay. So last week was that I wanted to focus on my confidence as I continue to delve deeper into promoting my new book. Right. Because it it's confidence is something I kind of struggle with. Well,
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: I went into it Doree. I had therapy yesterday and okay. Oh boy. I cried.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: I cried because you know what it kinda, I kind of realized is that a lot of it has to do with my experiences as, as a kid in elementary school with my young diagnosed a D D and being diagnosed as an adult and grieving and the anger and the way in which my teachers treated me, impacted my confidence. I mean, it's just, oh, it's a lot of, it's a lot of, kind of real Hery things that are still, you know, like still hurt. So I, Really dug into it, you know, and, uh, felt great. And kind of like this in combination with my little moon circle has again, like I'm really examining, I think what my personal values are, and I've never really thought about this. And like, you know, I think, especially with book coming out, there's a lot of like external and internal pressure for it to like, quote, be a huge success and be a best seller. Like this is a lot of it coming from me and in my brain, I'm like, well, what do I really want? You know? Yeah. Like I want to write books and to give people the joy of reading a book, I think, you know, like what is my core value in all of this? And am I getting swept up in what I want or what, like I'm being told I want. And I think that plays into my feelings of confidence. I'm doing a lot of exploring. Anyway, this is
Doree: Cool.
Kate: It's all, it's all kind of, it's a lot emotionally for me to like, think of all these things, but, um, you know, ultimately like I love writing and I love getting to write in the genre that I write in. And I'm like, if I can give somebody an escape in a book that brings me so much joy and that helps, that makes me feel good. So, yeah, that's very cool. Anyway, this is a tangent, but that's kind of what I've been thinking about this week and the work I've been doing with all my wonderful therapist. Um, okay. So this week I'm doing something that I wanted to do a long time ago. And then I think I've made, as my intention I've talked about on the podcast, I've never followed through, there was a post in forever 35 food about someone looking for online Italian cooking classes, and then someone tagged me. Hmm. And I was like, oh, Hey, I've also tried to look for this and failed. And, um, a listener. And the post mentioned that I was gonna like cook my way through Marcella Hasan's, uh, cookbook, cuz she's kind of like an iconic Italian, R I P and I never did this. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna crack open that cookbook again and try to pick a meal to cook this Sunday night, a good old Sunday Italian supper and, and see what happens. Cool. That's my intention.
Doree: I love it.
Kate: Thank you Doree.
Doree: I love it.
Kate: Well, Doree, as always, it's an honor and a privilege to make this podcast with you and the other folks,
Doree: likewise.
Kate: who help make it. Uh, it is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer that's us and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is Acast and we will talk to y'all later.
Doree: Bye!