A Five-Minute Break Can Change Your Life with Manoush Zomorodi
Host of NPR's TED Radio Hour and author Manoush Zomorodi joins the show to discuss the (literally) life-changing effect of taking breaks during the day, how to separate these good health habits from diet culture, why teens and screens are not the biggest indicator of mental health, and her new book Body Electric: The Hidden Health Costs of the Digital Age and New Science to Reclaim Your Well-Being.
Doree and Elise also chat about Doree’s fun birthday plans and the school play Elise has seen four times.
Mentioned in this Episode
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Transcript
The following transcript is AI generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu and we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. Today on the show, one of my great friends and colleagues really at TED because we both host TED podcasts. Manoush Zomorodi is going to be on. She has a new book out called The Body Electric and it's backed by all sorts of fascinating research about the minimal amount of daily exercise that we need in order to keep our bodies healthy and strong. It's good stuff and plus Manoush is just a ball of energy and super charismatic and we have a great conversation with her.
Doree Shafrir (00:52):
Yeah, I really love talking to her.
Elise Hu (00:54):
She's a lot of fun.
Doree Shafrir (00:55):
She was great. Elise, what's going on with you?
Elise Hu (01:01):
Well, what is going on? We are in post-production on Windswept. I'm doing a lot of big editorial meetings with my co-director, Rufus, and having a lot of fun there. It is almost the end of the school year, so it's that snowball feeling where time moves really quickly. I very stupidly allowed two of my girls to be in different productions of the same school musical. I have one daughter that's in the Matilda Jr. Class that met on Tuesdays. And then the other daughter is in the Matilda Junior class that met on Fridays. Oh my gosh. And each cast has two shows, like two evening performances. So in all, I had to get tickets for four Matilda Junior performances and attend at least two. The others- Oh my gosh. I have delegated out to Matt, my ex- husband and Lingling, our nanny. So many hours spent watching Matilda Jr. Over last week and this week, but it is that time of year.
(02:11):
And then Issa is graduating from elementary school soon. Oh my gosh. So there's going to be a ton of culmination activities. Very excited for the student versus parent kickball game.
Doree Shafrir (02:23):
Oh, is that
Elise Hu (02:24):
A tradition at
Doree Shafrir (02:24):
Your school?
Elise Hu (02:25):
Yes. Yes, it is a tradition. So I think Rob is going to show up and play for the parents. One time I was at a birthday party that had a bunch of carnival games where you had to throw darts into balloons to pop them or go fishing for things. And we went home with all the prizes. He's really good at that stuff. He kills it at any sort of beer pong or those sorts of games. He's just really good at games. So
Doree Shafrir (02:53):
Funny.
Elise Hu (02:54):
Or things that require physical skills. Right. Yeah. So I think he's going to be a ringer for the fifth grade parent team. Love
Doree Shafrir (03:05):
It. Okay.
Elise Hu (03:06):
Yeah. And then we had Mother's Day over the last weekend. There's just a bunch of sports things. Everything just seems to be moving very quickly. And I'm trying to find time to do the things that I enjoy, which consists of sitting around, talking shit with my friends. I like to sit around, eat food, drink fun drinks and talk shit with my friends. Those are among my favorite activities. And I don't have enough time for that lately, which is sort of annoying. But I did have a friend come back from Korea and bring a major hall of mainly PDRN products because it's still all the rage. So I have a ton of Metaheel, Metacube, Reguron in a bottle, and products that are marketed that way. And yeah, I haven't tried anything out yet, but my friend, shout out to my friend Lucy, who brings a bunch of stuff.
(04:13):
I can bring you some for your birthday. And Dora, your birthday's coming up. So how are you feeling?
Doree Shafrir (04:19):
That's true. Well, actually, by the time this airs, my birthday will have already happened.
Elise Hu (04:25):
So happy birthday to Doree.
Doree Shafrir (04:26):
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm feeling fine. I'm just another year on this planet, grateful to still be here. Happy to still be here and looking forward to my birthday party.
Elise Hu (04:45):
Oh yeah. Tell everybody about your birthday party idea.
Doree Shafrir (04:49):
Well, first Elise texted me and she was like, "Oh my God, your birthday's coming up. What are we doing?" And I was like, "Ugh, I don't know. " That was your
Elise Hu (04:58):
Response.
Doree Shafrir (04:59):
Yeah. Last year, Elise very kindly threw me a trivia birthday party at her house. Super fun. It was super fun, but I was like, I don't ... Also, by this time it was already like, I don't know, not that long before my birthday. And I was like, "I don't want to plan another trivia birthday party. It's kind of a lot of work." And it was a lot of work for Elise. I was like, "Let's not do that again." And then I was like, "Oh, maybe karaoke." And then I started actually thinking about the logistics of karaoke and how you can get a private room, but then if you don't pay for it yourself, which runs into the hundreds of dollars trying to get people to Venmo you 50 bucks. I don't know. I was just like, "Oh, that sounds annoying too." And then Elise was like, "Well, what about a bar where they do karaoke?" And for five minutes, I was like, "Oh, that could be fun." And then I just was like, "It's going to be so loud." And then I was like, "Oh, what if I just got people together to play tennis and have a picnic?"
Elise Hu (05:55):
Which are things that you enjoy and allow people to hear each other's voices.
Doree Shafrir (06:00):
Yes, exactly. And if you want to play tennis, you can play. And if you don't want to play, you don't have to because there will be picnicy things happening. So that's the plan. I have to reserve the courts tomorrow because the public courts in LA open up for reservations eight days in advance. So going to do that tomorrow and yeah, I'm going to order a cake. The bakery just emailed me all their current menu and prices, so I'm going to order that. Elise offered to pick it up, which is very nice of her. And yeah, probably just get some snacks and some drinks and call it a day.
Elise Hu (06:48):
Awesome. Awesome. Well, if there's anything else that we can cook or bring or whatever, just let me know.
Doree Shafrir (06:54):
Appreciate that. I will
Elise Hu (06:56):
Definitely
Doree Shafrir (06:56):
Do that.
Elise Hu (06:57):
Most of your friends play tennis, is that right? Because so much of your social circle is through tennis?
Doree Shafrir (07:04):
A lot of them do. There were a few people who are not on any teams of mine who are coming and are planning on playing. So that'll be fun. And then there are a few people who don't play at all, which is also totally
Elise Hu (07:19):
Fine. Does Matt play? Is he going to play?
Doree Shafrir (07:20):
Matt does not play.
Elise Hu (07:21):
Okay.
Doree Shafrir (07:22):
Henry wants to play.
Elise Hu (07:23):
Great.
Doree Shafrir (07:24):
Yeah.
Elise Hu (07:24):
Awesome. Oh yeah. Are people bringing their kids too?
Doree Shafrir (07:29):
Yes. I meant to mention that.
Elise Hu (07:31):
Okay.
Doree Shafrir (07:31):
People are bringing their kids. So if you would like to bring your kids one or all, one, two, three-
Elise Hu (07:37):
You're not going to get all three.
Doree Shafrir (07:38):
Yeah,
Elise Hu (07:38):
One to three children. And they're in the same place. Yeah. Part of the reason we were like, "Oh, we should take a Mother's Day picture together is because it is so rare that we're all together in one place."
Doree Shafrir (07:52):
That picture was so cute. Also, I cannot believe how tall Ava is because
Elise Hu (07:56):
You're tall. She's 5'10" and I'm five now. Wow.
Doree Shafrir (07:59):
Yeah. So I don't know. I'm excited about that. I always try to just have my birthdays be an excuse to get my friends together.
Elise Hu (08:08):
Yeah.
Doree Shafrir (08:09):
So that's all I want.
Elise Hu (08:13):
Yeah. Well, I'm really excited to see my trivia teammates from last year.
Doree Shafrir (08:19):
Yes.
Elise Hu (08:19):
We had a good time.
Doree Shafrir (08:21):
Yeah. All right. Before we get to our guest, we have another fun little segment from our friends at Depop.
Elise Hu (08:32):
Hey y'all, it's Elise and Dore and we are hopping into a short branded segment brought to you by our friends at Depop, which we have been loving. We have really enjoyed this partnership with Depop, haven't we?
Doree Shafrir (08:43):
It's been amazing. It has been great for me both as a buyer and a seller, I will say. And it's also brought the fun back for me.
Elise Hu (08:52):
Yeah. It really is because you can be so specific in what you're searching for. And I know for you, Dora, there were specific items like that top that you wanted from a photo shoot that we did for our headshots a few years ago now and you were able to find the specific top. Yes.
Doree Shafrir (09:09):
I was able to find the specific top. I also, there were several options I got to choose because there were a few available. There was also that Farm Rio Adidas collab that I had wanted to get something from when it first came out and I just kind of missed it, but I was able to get this sweatshirt that I am totally obsessed with. I wear it all the time. I know, but
Elise Hu (09:32):
You've been wearing it a lot. Yeah, I've been wearing a lot. We're recording.
Doree Shafrir (09:35):
I'm wearing a lot. Also, you can't see my pants, but those Nilly Lotan pants, again, something that they were just too expensive for me to buy new. And I was like, there's no way these are going to be on Depop. No one's selling these. Lo and behold, there they were.
Elise Hu (09:55):
Yeah. No, it's an incredible space. And then working with the potential buyers as a seller from the seller end is really fantastic too, but we are just going to each share a fine of the month or something that we're looking for because this is a great opportunity for me to share with you my new suede coach clutch. Yes. Okay. So coach, especially the early aughts and late '90s coach is really having a moment and you can find so many selections, whether you want a more briefcase style bag to carry your laptop in or a crossbody or these clutches or wallets. There's so much great coach stuff on Depop right now. So this is my find of the month. It has a little wristlet too. You just heard the snap. It's in great condition, excellent condition. We didn't do any sort of offering because the thing on Depop is that if you want to try and get a deal, you can actually make an offer to the seller and say like, "Oh, this is priced a hundred, but I'm going to offer 80 or something or I'll offer 90." And very often the sellers are like, "Okay." Totally.
(11:15):
It's just a fantastic experience through and through. What about you? What have you found or what are you looking for?
Doree Shafrir (11:21):
Well, this is sort of like a basic, but I pretty much only wear long sleeves now for
Elise Hu (11:29):
Sunset
Doree Shafrir (11:30):
Protection. And that extends to just like casual shirts. So right now I'm wearing this striped shirt. I feel like I wear these striped shirts all the time because they're like lightweight and long sleeve, but I was like, I need some more options. I need some more shirts. So I found this like cute made well top that is like this pretty blue plaid button up. It's got a little ruffle collar. It really resembles another more expensive brand that I shall not name, but I'm like, people are going to see this and think that it is this other brand. It's 100% cotton, like fabric is great.
Elise Hu (12:12):
Quality is awesome.
Doree Shafrir (12:12):
Quality is awesome. It's in good condition. I'm like, I will wear this all the time. So that is my find of the month and I'm looking for more just sort of like these aren't like couture pieces, but they're staples for my wardrobe that I'm going to wear all the time.
Elise Hu (12:33):
And there's something so soothing about finding a seller that you like and then scrolling through that seller's listings.
Doree Shafrir (12:41):
Yes.
Elise Hu (12:41):
You get a feel for their personal style and seeing the world that they've built through the pieces they've curated to sell. And then when you become a seller, both of us are sellers on Depop also. There's no seller fees, which means you get more money directly in your pocket and you can quickly and easily turn the clothes you're no longer wearing into extra cash as we have both experienced.
Doree Shafrir (13:02):
I just did that actually with a skirt. I'm trying to just be really kind of ruthless about the stuff in my closet that I like aesthetically, but I just don't wear for whatever reason and this skirt, it just like never fit exactly right. It didn't fit right. And so I was like, "I'm going to sell this. " And someone bought it. Actually, I'd put my shop on vacation because that's something you can do. When you leave town, you can put your shop on vacation so that people don't buy stuff and then like you can't ship it right
Elise Hu (13:34):
Away.
Doree Shafrir (13:35):
So someone had messaged me being like, "Hey, when can you ship this? " And I was like, "Well, I'm away, but I'll be back on this day." And the second I was back, she bought the skirt.
Elise Hu (13:46):
Oh, yay.
Doree Shafrir (13:47):
Yeah. It was like, "Oh, okay. Well, that worked out.
Elise Hu (13:50):
" You can download the Depop app and list your own items in seconds. It's so easy and a great way to make money easily with no selling fees and thank you to Depop for making this branded segment possible.
Doree Shafrir (14:01):
We hope you enjoyed that. Just a reminder, if you want to reach us, you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 or email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com. We are now doing our rebranded mini episodes. Our Patreon supporters voted and we decided on You Ask We Answer as the name for these episodes. They're sort of like mega mini episodes. They're like the length of a full length episode, but we get to all your questions. So please keep sending those questions in either by email or text or voicemail. Just a reminder, you can visit our website, forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. Follow us on Instagram @Forever35podcast and you can join the aforementioned Patreon at patreon.com/forever35. At the free level, we have a semi-monthly newsletter where we discuss our podcast highlights, product reviews, exclusive discounts, giveaways, additional bonus content. It's a good time over there.
(15:07):
And then at $5 a month, you have access to our casual chat, which is weekly and now on video. Our live casual chats, which we're doing once every three months and access to our community chat on Patreon. And at $10 a month, you also get ad free episodes and a shout out on the podcast each and every month. You also get a little discount if you buy an annual Patreon membership. So you can check that out as well. Our favorite products are at shopmy.us/forever35. And Elise, do you want to introduce Manouche? I
Elise Hu (15:41):
Am delighted to introduce Manouche Zoma Rodi, who is the host of NPR's TED Radio Hour. She's a journalist, podcaster, and media entrepreneur whose work reflects her passion for investigating how technology and business transform humanity. Ted RadioHour has won a bunch of awards, including the 2023 AMB for Best Knowledge Science and Tech podcast. Her previous book is called Bored and Brilliant: How Spacing Out Can Unlock Your Most Creative Self. And her accompanying TED Talk is also a guide to surviving information overload in the attention economy. She has a new book out now. It's called Body Electric. We're super excited about that as Manoush is one of Fast Company's 100 most creative people and a multiple award winner. She received her bachelor's degree from Georgetown and she's half Persian, half Swiss, born in New York City where she still lives with her family. We cannot wait for you to hear our conversation with Manouche, which is coming up after a break.
Doree Shafrir (16:48):
We'll be right back. Manouche welcome to Forever 35. Dori and Elise
Manoush Zomorodi (17:02):
Is my honor to be with you. Love you guys. So excited to hang.
Doree Shafrir (17:08):
Yay. Well, Manouche, as you no doubt know, we start all of our conversations with our guests by asking them about a self-care practice that they have. Yes. Consider your whole book a version of self-care.
Manoush Zomorodi (17:26):
Definitely.
Doree Shafrir (17:26):
For sure. But I'm wondering, I mean, you can talk about that or you could talk about something else.
Manoush Zomorodi (17:32):
No, I'm going to talk about that because it is what I have dedicated the last three, four years of my life. So yeah, it's been a journey and it sounds so stupid in a way when I explain it, which I think is what happens when you tackle something big and then you find the answer and you're like, "It was there in front of me all along." Right? You know that feeling. So okay, so take us to take back. I'll tell you the journey. I felt like crap at the end of the day. It's that simple. I'd close my laptop and I'd be so tired that all I wanted to do was like, you know the drill. I'll go over to the couch to
Elise Hu (18:07):
Look
Manoush Zomorodi (18:08):
At my phone to watch Netflix.
Elise Hu (18:10):
Seems right.
Manoush Zomorodi (18:10):
And I just couldn't understand because we hear so much about the mental health effects of being online too much or being on social media, et cetera. But this felt so physical to me. Everything just was drained. And then of course you know that other part of it where you get into bed and you're wired and tired, like sort of like this cracked out feeling that you have. So I just wanted to know, I was like, "What is going on biologically in my body that is making me feel so crappy and where do screens fit into it? " So I'm feeling crappy, walking the dog and then I hear about this physiologist at Columbia University Medical Center. His name's Keith Diaz. Keith's mission is to figure out the minimum amount of movement that the human body needs so it doesn't die in early death
Elise Hu (19:01):
M amount part though.
Manoush Zomorodi (19:03):
Right? Keeps setting the bar so low and he finds out that moving for five minutes every half hour during long periods of sitting on your butt has these crazy effects. It like slashes people's blood sugar. It slashes their blood pressure. Their mood gets better. They're able to focus. And I was like, "This guy has found the answer." So I call him up and I'm like, "Why aren't we all doing this? " He's like, "Are you going to stand up every half hour for five minutes and walk around?" I was like, "I don't know if I feel that much better, maybe." He was like, "Come up to the lab." So I go up to the lab and he enrolls me in the study and so I did two days. One day I sat on my butt the whole day on my laptop doing my thing. I got a lunch break and then I got to go to the bathroom a couple times, but it was pretty much a regular day.
(19:57):
I felt crappy, usual. And then the next day, every half hour, one of his assistants would tap me on the shoulder and lead me over to a treadmill and they would put it on two miles per hour, which I don't know, if you're a runner, if you ever run on a treadmill, that's not that fast. What somebody said to me, they're like, "That's an annoying..." They're New Yorkers. That's an annoying speed. I was like, "It's a stroll. It's a stroll."
(20:25):
Okay. So then he comes back with the bio data and my glucose was cut in half. My blood pressure dropped by five points. My mood throughout the day was way steadier, whereas the other day it went like that. My fatigue levels, I practically skipped back onto the subway at the end of that day. I was like, "Dude, I think this is magic. Why don't we ask people to try it? " So we partnered up. We got NPR and Columbia University. We partnered up. His team there, they turned it into a proper scientific clinical trial and we enrolled over 20,000 people to give it a shot, which was kind of cool and amazing. And so I mean, long story short, I can dive into it, but at the end of the day, the people who committed to taking breaks, 82% of them stuck with it, 80% of them liked taking breaks.
(21:18):
They saw on average a 25% decline in their fatigue levels. And this is the crazy part. All those interruptions, productivity actually increased slightly. So that seemed kind of amazing to me. People lost a few pounds, their back stopped aching. And if they stick with it, this could be why they don't end up developing or they can mitigate any pre-diabetic situation that they have. It's only about 10% of our health is up to genes. The rest of it is lifestyle. So that's what I'm trying to do. God, that was a long answer. Self-care, getting up and moving regularly. It's that simple.
Elise Hu (21:59):
How are you able to interrupt yourself? So when you were in the lab, there was somebody who was coming up to you and going, "All right, it's about that time." I don't know. Sometimes if I'm really in the flow of writing or maybe even having a really long podcast interview, I'm not going to know how much time has passed to do my minimally beneficial amount of activity.
Manoush Zomorodi (22:20):
Totally. So what we found was that people in the study, they mostly started with timers, which made sense and they weren't doing their Apple watch because we know what that's like. It's like, bring, ring, ring, stand up. And you're like, F you, I'm not standing up. The key thing was that they had to set their timer themselves. There were three groups in our study. One did the moves every half hour. Other people took five minutes every hour. Other people tried it every two hours. So the bottom line is do what works for you. And so Elise, if you are in flow, God bless. You know what I mean? Go
Elise Hu (22:58):
With it. It happens so rarely. I might as well stay in it.
Manoush Zomorodi (23:01):
Exactly. Exactly. But that was the other thing we found that people who were just like, "Do I want to take a break now?" No, I'm actually in the middle of something. It didn't become this thing like all or nothing. I got to go to the bootcamp or I don't go and I'm a terrible person. No, it's like literally just try to take as many breaks as you can if you have time. And we saw that people who even just took as little as four breaks a day, they saw big benefits as well. Okay. So there's a sense called interoception. This
Elise Hu (23:32):
Is-
Manoush Zomorodi (23:33):
Oh
Elise Hu (23:33):
Yeah, I wanted to
Manoush Zomorodi (23:33):
Ask you about that. System. Yeah. So this is the internal system where your body is telling your brain what it needs. And it's like as much as like, I need a snack or like take off your sweater, it's getting stuffy in here or things that we don't even know, like take another breath. We don't hear our body usually telling us that. What we have now see is that screens are messing with our interoception. So you know the feeling, you think you're in flow at least, but it might just be that you're in scroll. I don't know, right? They feel very similar. And so you lose touch with your body and there's been a study that showed that people who interrupted that time with movement developed a sense of interoception. And what I heard from many participants was they, by the end of the two week study, they didn't have to set their timers anymore.
(24:26):
Your body starts to crave it. You start to hear the cravings and you want to obey because then you feel better and you do better work and you don't feel like crap.
Elise Hu (24:34):
Yay.
Manoush Zomorodi (24:36):
Wow.
Elise Hu (24:38):
Does it matter what kinds of exercise you're doing? You're saying walking, can you get up and just like squat a bunch or-
Manoush Zomorodi (24:46):
Yeah, totally. Or the zoom and shuffle. We could do it now if you want to.
Elise Hu (24:50):
Oh yes. Why don't you demonstrate the zoom and shuffle?
Manoush Zomorodi (24:52):
So this is what I call the zoom and shuffle.
Elise Hu (24:54):
Literally- Okay. Yeah. Describe it for our listeners.
Manoush Zomorodi (24:57):
We're looking at each other and I'm the annoying person who's standing up and literally going side to side back and forth, stepping from right to left to right to left. That's one of my faves. Other people, if walking's not an option, then you can use your arms to go like this. That's fine too. You can go clean out the dishwasher, you can walk the dog, you can have a dance party, you can take a call while you're walking around your living room. Honestly, it doesn't have to be that strenuous. Some people, they would take that as a moment to go get all the dirty laundry. People were like, "This is great. I'm cleaning my house in five minute increments." Awesome. It really doesn't matter.
Doree Shafrir (25:41):
That was something that I thought was interesting is you kind of listed a bunch of things. You could garden, you could totally do all these ... It really is about the movement and the not sitting and then not being sedentary and walking. It seemed like walking is just sort of the easiest thing for people to do. Exactly. But you could do a lot of other things.This sort of reminds me, this is like a total sidebar, but during lockdown we interviewed the author, Louise Penny, who has this long running detective series and she was like, "Yeah, I run laps in my
Elise Hu (26:26):
Apartment." I'm assuming that he's not like a huge apartment. No.
Doree Shafrir (26:29):
Yeah. She was like, "I don't have a huge apartment." But she's running little laps in it. We asked her the self-care question and she was like, "I run laps in my apartment." So I feel like if she's running laps in her apartment, we can all figure out something to do.
Manoush Zomorodi (26:47):
I mean, I know some people get weird, right? They're like, "Got to get my steps, walking, walking, walking." So you got to do what works for you. Keith, my researcher, Pal, he will not use a step counter. He's like, "I don't want to know. I just move regularly and I know it because I feel better and that's enough for me. " I like to see my steps. That works for me.
Elise Hu (27:11):
This is a perfect segue to your other book because I won't use screen time on my phone because I don't really want to see how many hours I've used my screen. Not because-
Manoush Zomorodi (27:24):
Look at the truth. Come
Elise Hu (27:25):
On. Not because I'm trying to be judgmental about it, but actually because I don't think it's a very reliable measure of health or lack of health because of how much I use it for Google Maps, for example. So if I'm in LA and I'm driving a lot, then it looks like my screen time's obnoxiously high, but it's just because I'm having to navigate, right? Totally. And so I don't know that the data is important to me, but we are in this time where there's a lot of anxiety about focus and attention and how much time young people are spending on phones or in my soapboxes, how much time our parents are spending on phones. And so in the last 10, 15 years, since you did the work for your previous book, Bored Book Brilliant, where have you landed? What's your general philosophy on-
Manoush Zomorodi (28:14):
That's really interesting that you asked that question. Okay. So what you're referring to is 10 years ago, I did a similar sort of experiment where we asked people to see if they could lower the minutes that they spent on their phones and get more boredom into their life for a week. We also had 20,000 people sign up for that, which I don't know, 20,000 seems to be the key number that I think it's the tech actually. That is the maximum the tech can sort of handle crunching the data. Anyway, at the time after that week, we saw incredible people were like, "I finished my thesis for my senior year. I reached out to my dad who I haven't talked to in years. I found out a new business idea." They slept better. They were playing the guitar again, all these beautiful things, but the data said that on average people only cut down six minutes of screen time.
(29:11):
And at the time I was like, "What the heck? What happened?" Now I'm starting to think it's not about the
Elise Hu (29:21):
Time.
Manoush Zomorodi (29:22):
It's about the intention, right? It's about maybe they started listening to more Spotify, I don't know, and walking and listening, or maybe they took the time when they weren't on their screens to just be thinking more and so it wasn't really related. So honestly, I would love to know what you guys think. I'm kind of overshaming kids about their screens. I kind of am like, "You know what? They don't know anything else. We screwed it all up for them. Can we not be like, Oh my God, you're on your phone all the time because I am on my phone all All the time. And also a lot of experts say if your kid is sleeping okay and they have friends and things are going fine at school, it's not worth the battle. And the data doesn't support that being on social media is horrendous for their mental health necessarily.
(30:20):
So I know that's controversial.
Elise Hu (30:22):
No, well I'm glad that you brought this up because the two of us, Manoush and I were just at TED in Vancouver a couple of weeks ago and Manoush, you curated a session which is to say you helped find and book the speakers, vet them and then help coach them. And on of your speakers is research backed of course is a researcher on kids and screens and she sort of disrupted the common narrative that this is the anxious generation. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that and why you wanted to have her on this group?
Manoush Zomorodi (30:57):
Yeah. Okay. So John Hite is the social scientist from NYU whose book The Anxious Generation has been on the bestseller list for years at this point. And I think a lot of us are very grateful that he has started this conversation about how do we make sure that our kids are not exposed to dangerous material, toxic material online and make the internet a safer place. However, Candace Odgers, she is a UC Irvine researcher and she specializes in teens and screens. And she feels, and I'm inclined to go with this too, is that the narrative has been social media is rewiring a generation. It is ruining our kids. And she's like, actually it doesn't even show up when it comes to mental health issues for kids. The number one thing that really affects kids' mental health, how their parents are doing. That's the most important thing.
(31:55):
And so I just worry that when we talk about get the screens out of there, we're missing like, how about the fact that there's only on mental health counselor for every five kids or 500 kids in the United States? What about the fact that a lot of people don't have health insurance? Yeah. Their parents are freaking out about their jobs. We're at war. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? There's a lot going on in kids' lives. It's not just because they're being bullied online or even just spending time there. I think for a lot of them, she's like very concerned that these bands are going to push kids into places that are even less regulated and potentially stop kids who are looking for support or connection from getting it at all. So it's a nuanced conversation. And to me it's like the more I think about it, the more like every kid, every person, we are all special snowflakes.
(32:54):
We have different genetic profiles. We're born into different economic situations. We have different temperaments. And to have these blanket decisions, like I think we need basic safety regulation, 100%, but to say like, "This is terrible for a generation that's like,
(33:12):
I don't know.
Doree Shafrir (33:14):
" So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (33:26):
On the flip side, in either your curation work recently or just in the many, many conversations that you have as host of Ted RadioHour, what are you excited about that's coming around the bend when it comes to tech and culture and society?
Manoush Zomorodi (33:42):
Well, I love that. So one of my other speakers was a guy named Michael Snyder who he's at Stanford and he's like the nerdiest of the nerdiest guys. And if you ask him to put out his hands, he will put it out and he has like four or five different wearable rings tracking data.
Elise Hu (33:59):
Oh, the wearables guy.
Manoush Zomorodi (34:01):
Oh, the wearables guy. He has all these wristbands going on. He wears hearing aids that actually double as sensors for the social interaction that he's getting every day. I mean, the man is quantifying and he has been for years and part of me is kind of annoyed. I'm like, "Oh my God, too much data." Right?
Elise Hu (34:19):
Yeah.
Manoush Zomorodi (34:20):
But he is showing what is possible and he has found that there are not just ... We talk about type two diabetes, right? People who develop diabetes that they can't process sugar because of their lifestyle or because they aren't eating properly or maybe they're not moving enough. And he has shown like, actually that's not entirely true. It can be partly a combination of your genetic makeup the way that your body processes and metabolizes food. And he thinks there are dozens of type two diabetes profiles, which is so interesting. So like I eat a banana, I'm fine. Somebody else eats a banana. Their blood sugar spikes up the wazoo. So glucose monitors are cheap. He is hopeful that eventually we will be able to use the data in a way where people can have personalized medicine and provided they have access to healthy food, that's a big if, right?
Elise Hu (35:15):
Yeah.
Manoush Zomorodi (35:15):
Then they'd be able to eat to suit their own sort of makeup,
Elise Hu (35:21):
Metabolic
Manoush Zomorodi (35:21):
Makeup.
Elise Hu (35:22):
So medicine getting more personalized based on being able to measure our reactions to it better.
Manoush Zomorodi (35:29):
Yes. In a good way. There's a lot of caveats with that. We got to be careful where does all the data go and who has access and if you know you're supposed to eat healthy food, is it even available? However, in a broader way, this idea of personalized medicine I think is really exciting.
Doree Shafrir (35:48):
How do we kind of separate all of this information and acknowledgement that five minutes every half hour has these great health benefits from diet culture? How do we kind of tease that apart?
Manoush Zomorodi (36:10):
This is the first time I'm being asked that question and I really, really love it.
Elise Hu (36:15):
Which is interesting too.
Manoush Zomorodi (36:17):
I'm surprised, actually. Well, that's why you guys are so awesome. Thanks.
Elise Hu (36:25):
Yeah, because we also don't want to over monitor ourselves and we don't want to feel like, "Oh, I'm not enough if I don't do ... " Totally,
Doree Shafrir (36:32):
Totally agree.
Elise Hu (36:33):
And
Doree Shafrir (36:33):
The benefits are we doing it to ...
Elise Hu (36:36):
Is this an eto-driven reason or is this a health-driven
Doree Shafrir (36:40):
Reason? Yeah. I feel like you were very careful not to talk about weight per se in your book. It's all about blood sugar and metabolism, but these are very murky lines, right?
Manoush Zomorodi (36:52):
100%. You're absolutely right. Okay. So here's what I would say with the five minute thing. What I love about it is it's not like I'm going to kill it at the gym. And it's not like I'm going to go to bootcamp and check it off my list and then there, I'm not going to eat anything all day. This is, I think, an exercise pun intended in moderation. We have so little, we're such an all or nothing, go balls to the wall or forget it kind of society. This is easy, doable. You're not going to get a medal. You're just going to go for a walk and try to feel good inside. And honestly, for me, as a person who's super type A surprise.
(37:44):
Couldn't relate. Yeah, right now. I'm sure neither of you know what that's like. I was always, when I was younger, chasing the highs, like the highs, highs, like let's kill it and see. This is really good for me. I just get up, I walk, I feel calmer, I come back. It's almost like self regulation. It's a reset because I can get like really into something or and not want to tear myself away. I mean, this is like if you want to go deep, this is kind of a life lesson for me, which is like you don't really need to feel something. It can just be a five minute walk and that's good for you too.
Elise Hu (38:24):
Maybe
Manoush Zomorodi (38:25):
That's-
Elise Hu (38:26):
The transformation is happening over time. It's a long game play.
Manoush Zomorodi (38:30):
It is a long game. And as I get older, I'm like, I want that game to be longer. Right?
Elise Hu (38:35):
Yeah. Yeah. Increase your lifespan and your health span and all of those things.
Doree Shafrir (38:40):
We just had Kara Swisher on the show and she- Oh, you did? How was that? Yeah, we did. I mean, she's so herself.
Elise Hu (38:46):
Kara Swisher wouldn't want it any other way. Was so Kara Swisher. Yes.
Doree Shafrir (38:49):
Yes. But she has this new CNN series about the people who kind of want to live forever. But a big part of it is, well, how do we think about increasing our quality of life?
Manoush Zomorodi (39:04):
Yes.
Doree Shafrir (39:04):
If we're living past a hundred, what are those years like? And I feel like what you're talking about is really of a piece with that conversation as well. It's all well and good to say, "Oh, I want to live time a hundred, but do I want to be doing that bedridden?"
Manoush Zomorodi (39:25):
And
Doree Shafrir (39:25):
Demented potentially. It's right. It's like all of these questions that we who are not elderly aren't really thinking about, but a lot of us are seeing parents through it now. And I think anything that we can sort of start doing in our 20s, 30s, 40s,
Manoush Zomorodi (39:48):
50s And stick with it, right? And stick
Doree Shafrir (39:50):
With it that has these sort of long-term benefits. And I also think as we were sort of trying to parse out this diet culture connection, it does feel to me that what you're talking about here has a lot to do with things that will bring you joy, like the way you say you don't have to just take a walk, do something that makes you feel good. And I feel like that part of the conversation is something that's often missing when we talk about working out and health and all of these things.
Manoush Zomorodi (40:24):
You guys, I went through a crazy bootcamp phase, like killing it. This was 10 years ago and I was like-
Elise Hu (40:32):
And Manoush listeners, Manoush lives in New York where there are many options and many people who are interested in bootcamps and bootcamp style exercises.
Manoush Zomorodi (40:43):
I was all freaking in. I had two little kids and I would haul my butt out of bed at 5:30 in the morning and like run around with like a bunch of 25 year old dudes, but then life got in the way. I also was very tired on those days when I would do that. I wonder why. There was something like super ... I'm not going to lie, it was very satisfying. I was like strong and like that was cool, but it wasn't sustainable. And as I got into my 40s and my body started to hurt in ways that it hadn't previously, I realized like I'd also had two kids and going to bootcamp doesn't make you able to hold your body up better. You start to use muscles that are easy to use. So like my traps here by my neck were like rock hard.
(41:38):
You know what I'm saying? And you're
Elise Hu (41:40):
Recruiting them all the time, right? Yes,
Manoush Zomorodi (41:41):
Exactly. So I wasn't using the rest of my muscular structure and your muscles hate to be the like Cassandra out here in the future telling you that your muscles are going to like start to fade away and you have to start using all of them, not just the big ones to hold you up. So to me, like part of like as you said, or like the beauty of finding this is like, I can do this for the rest of my life and I like it.
Elise Hu (42:10):
Cool.
Manoush Zomorodi (42:12):
That's great. I add in some strength training. I'm working on the strengths training. Yeah. I was going to ask you how
Elise Hu (42:17):
This interacts with the rest of your exercise routines.
Manoush Zomorodi (42:22):
I am all about the strength training now. It is not going crazy, just the ones that like the dead butt syndrome-
Elise Hu (42:32):
I have deadbutt syndrome. You're talking to- We have talked
Doree Shafrir (42:35):
A
Elise Hu (42:35):
Lot
Doree Shafrir (42:36):
About dead butt syndrome here
Elise Hu (42:37):
On this
Manoush Zomorodi (42:37):
Podcast.
Elise Hu (42:38):
I don't even know if my brain can make my medial glute work because- That's what I'm working on.
Manoush Zomorodi (42:44):
We've decided my PT and I to call it zombie butt syndrome actually because- Oh, because dead butt sounds. He's not dead. He's just like, right? So we got to bring him back to humanity and let him, I don't know why my butt is at key. In any case, I'm working on that. I'm working on like these Romboid guys. You know those guys right there so I'm not like this. So I'm like this.
Elise Hu (43:11):
I know.
Manoush Zomorodi (43:11):
I have
Elise Hu (43:12):
To do those a lot also.
Manoush Zomorodi (43:13):
And that's like just little movements. So I'm working on like the musculature to hold my body up so I can holler around for another few decades. That's the plan.
Elise Hu (43:22):
Manoush, where can folks find you? This has been so much fun.
Manoush Zomorodi (43:26):
Manoush Z. So M-A-N-O-U-S-H-Z.com. Please buy the book, spread the movement for movement. We all just want to feel just a teeny bit better in this crazy world. This is one way to do it. I'm on Instagram, the usual places, et cetera. You guys are so fun. This was
Doree Shafrir (43:42):
So fun. Thank you so much.
Manoush Zomorodi (43:44):
Can
Doree Shafrir (43:45):
I come back? Yes. Anytime. Awesome. All right. Manoush was so great. Thank
Elise Hu (43:54):
You. Thank you. Thank you, Manoush.
Doree Shafrir (43:55):
Yeah, thank you, Manoush. And now we are in the intention zone. Elise, last week you were going to appreciate time with your kids. How did that go.
Elise Hu (44:08):
It was all right. I didn't appreciate them that much on the day I was supposed to be appreciated on Mother's Day, but I did really try and carve out some one-on-one time. I feel like things are pretty good with Ava and me. I have had a rocky year with her because this has been the middle of her middle school year and she's just been all over the place with the emotions and the freakouts and her social life being all up and down. I mean, standard stuff, but I have found it kind of annoying, like irritating more than anything else, but we have actually had some good times. Good. So we've had good times and we've just been joking around a lot. And then the other two are doing great. They're just gone a lot because they're doing the run up to this musical that I have to se four times.
(44:59):
Right, of course. So this week, since I am finding some bigger free pockets in my schedule as I'm not shooting the film as much as I have been in the last year since we're going into post, as I mentioned, I am going to intend to tackle my TBR list. I'm going to do a lot more leisure readings or I plan to. Nice. So that is my intention I'm putting out into the world.
Doree Shafrir (45:29):
I love
Elise Hu (45:29):
That. What about you? Because your intention last week was about writing, I think.
Doree Shafrir (45:35):
Well, I said I was going to make a schedule, which I did, but I have not really been following it as faithfully as I should be. I think what I need to do this week is make a more realistic schedule and just sort of like figure that out.
Elise Hu (46:02):
Okay.
Doree Shafrir (46:03):
Yeah. All right, everybody. On that note, Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone.
Elise Hu (46:18):
Talk to you next time.
Doree Shafrir (46:19):
Bye.