Product Recall: Avon Skin So Soft
Ding dong! Avon calling! Doree comes to Kate’s door to tell her all about the origin of the Avon Lady, Skin So Soft’s cult status as a bug spray, and the compelling sales spiel that has Kate adding multiple products to her cart.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast all about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts.
Doree: No. But we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums,
Kate: And today we are bringing you product recall, a weekly episode where we dig deeper into the history of an iconic product and its impact every Friday here currently on Forever35.
Doree: I like your caveat, Kate.
Kate: Well, I'm just saying like we're in flux. We are creative visionaries. We don't know what's going to come next.
Doree: It's true. It's true. We are also taking requests, and I think actually the one that we are going to be talking about today, I think it was requested at least once.
Kate: I mean, I requested it. I feel like when you mentioned it, I was like, yes. Put this into my body and brain. I want to reminisce.
Doree: If you want to send us those requests, you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390, and you can email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Kate: And on these episodes, we dig deep into some of these products. And so we share all the links to our research videos, everything that we find over on our website, forever35podcast.com. And you can also follow us on Instagram @Forever35podcast. Join the Forever35 Facebook group where the password is serums. Check out our newsletter and you can shop all the products. Oh, excuse me. Check on our newsletter at forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And you can also check out our favorite products mentioned on the show at shopmy.us/Forever35.
Doree: And don't forget about our merch collab with Balance Bound. There's that cozy reframe the narrative sweatshirt that Brooke tells us is now our most popular product.
Kate: Oh, really? The hoodie?
Doree: Yes, the hoodie.
Kate: Oh, I love it so much.
Doree: Its my most popular product. I wear it a lot.
Kate: I wear it a lot too. I got it. I got it. Kind of a little oversized for my bod. And it is just a snuggle fest.
Doree: And that is all at Balancebound.co/shop/Forever35.
Kate: Well, Doree, where are you taking us today? I am so pumped,
Doree: Kate. We are going to talk about a product that to me, elicits memories of Sleepaway Camp in the early nineteen Nineties.
Kate: Oh, interesting.
Doree: Late eighties, early nineties. And the reason it does is because you could buy it from our canteen.
Kate: Really? What a fancy camp
Doree: Was it? I don't think it was, this isn't a super fancy product, but it was definitely pitched to us as something that would keep the bugs away.
Kate: It's interesting. Okay. Tell us the product and then I want to make
Doree: Product is Avon's skin so soft.
Kate: So it is interesting to me that you do not think of this as a fancy product because to me, this is kind of the epitome of a luxurious product. When this was more kind of produced by my mother, when we were visiting family in New Hampshire, anytime we were going to be with mosquitoes, it was either, normally it was some sort of disgusting rancid bug spray. But then if someone busted, I can remember when the skin so soft kind of started appearing on the circuit, like the bug spray circuit. And it was smelled so delicious and it felt so good because it was an oil.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: And I didn't understand where it came from. I never saw it in stores. So it was just kind of this magical product that
Doree: Yes,
Kate: That did it even, it also had a mystery to it because it wasn't necessarily a bug spray. It was like
Doree: Correct.
Kate: When a product has a
Doree: It was a box label use.
Kate: Yes. It had a magical power. So it had this kind of truly exotic otherworldly feel to it.
Doree: It really did. And Kate, that's exactly right. So, Skin so Soft was a product launched by the Avon company. It'll talk a little bit about the Avon company's history in a moment, but it was launched as a product by the Avon company in 1961 as a bath oil. And it was marketed
Kate: 1961.
Doree: 1961. And it was marketed as a kind of luxurious, sort of treat yourself bath oil.
Kate: Absolutely. Right? Absolutely.
Doree: And that was the pitch. And the only way you could buy it was from your Avon sales rep, because Avon was a direct selling company. So they had, at the height of their powers, they had half a million Avon ladies who just fanned out across the United States selling Avon products door to door. I mean, if you think about it, especially I think the first half of the 20th century, I mean, think about Death of a Salesman. The whole idea of a door-to-door salesman was something that was just kind of part of the culture. You would buy encyclopedias sold door-to-door vacuum cleaners, Avon cosmetics.
Kate: Yes.
Doree: Tupperware. Right. All of that. Right. Tupper. Well, Tupperware was a little different because it was generally sold at parties, not so much door to door.
Kate: Okay so Avon was not
Doree: No, Avon was really door to door one-on-one kind of selling. Yes, Kate.
Kate: Okay. A question. So it wasn't at this time like an mlm, or is this kind of the precursor to MLMs?
Doree: Okay, Kate, that is a great question.
Kate: I know you are dying to answer it. I know you have so many answers to this one.
Doree: Okay. Let's just talk a little bit. Let's just give a brief overview of the history of the Avon company.
Kate: Great.
Doree: So, like so many of these companies,
Kate: Oh, baby.
Doree: Started by a white man.
Kate: No.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Seriously. Even Avon.
Doree: Even Avon. I'm sorry. So here's what happened. David H. McConnell, he was a door-to-door salesman in New York, and he was selling books, and he started giving away perfume samples with the books. And then he realized that the perfumes were more popular than the books. So in September, 1886, he starts a perfume company and starts selling perfume door to door. In 1892, the company changes its name to the California Perfume Company on the suggestion of his business partner who lived in California and suggested the name because there were so many flowers in California, which is kind of cool. That's
Kate: Thats so sweet. As we are entering our super bloom phase.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Right now.
Doree: Yes,
Exactly. But the whole idea of the Avon lady was thanks to a woman named P F E. Alby. Persis Foster Ames Alby.
Kate: Wow.
Doree: So she is considered the first Avon lady.
Kate: Okay. P F E
Doree: P F E. Albie. She was from Maine.
Kate: Yes. I love it already.
Doree: And she was married to, she didn't get married till she was 30, which
Kate: Wow,
Doree: Which in the mid 19th century was quite old.
Kate: Yes. Geezer, if you will, geezer.
Doree: She married a lawyer and he lived in New Hampshire, in Winchester, New Hampshire, who's also a New Hampshire State Senator. They have two children.
Kate: I Love this.
Doree: And in 1879, a book salesman named David H. McConnell goes to her house to sell her some books.
Kate: I see where this is going.
Doree: So she gets recruited by McConnell to sell books. And PFE purses becomes one of his most successful salespeople. And then when it becomes the California Perfume Company, she just really innovates and becomes this amazing salesperson. And also PS at this point, she's over 50 years old.
Kate: Wow.
Doree: She was kind of amazing. She was this older woman who started selling door to door. It turned out she really had a knack for it and just kind of like innovates. She had a variety store in her home originally. And then she starts selling all these direct sales, and she develops a network of other women to sell directly to other women. And I believe that she was kind of the innovator, the first person to kind of develop what I believe was the precursor to a lot of these women focused MLMs.
Kate: Wow. She was a revolutionary in a lot of ways.
Doree: Yes, yes. Yeah. She did not do the same thing. I do not believe it wasn't the same thing as the current MLM with the focus is more on recruiting new salespeople and not selling products. She was really focused on selling products, and she comes up with a product that she calls the Little dot perfume set, and it's five bottles of perfume, just like in a box.
Kate: Oh, I love it. I want it.
Doree: And she recruits these women to sell it. She trained more than 5,000 people over her 12 years with the company.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: So she developed new products for McConnell. She was really the innovator. And that is kind of how the whole idea of woman to woman direct selling develops.
Kate: Oh boy. Wow. I see.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: So she innovated, but then it kind of gets co-opted for maybe not the best use a little bit. It changes over time.
Doree: It Changes over time. And I don't think that we can blame her for what happens later. Of course. Yeah. So her whole idea was that women should sell to people that they know, or who were in their neighborhoods, in their networks.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: And there was this amazing, there were these amazing training manuals from the early 20th century. I'm just going to read from part of them. Prepare your outfit, make it as clean and attractive as possible. Now select the names of 10 or a dozen of the most influential families in your territory, listing their names in the most convenient order for you to call upon them with firm tread. Step to the door of the first and ring. Do not conceal your outfit, but do not carry it too conspicuously. I think that means your kit, your, oh my gosh. Kit of Avon. Things a good way of to set it quietly on one side of the door while you ring or knock. As we occasionally meet people who are prejudiced against agents until they know the line they're representing.
Kate: Yikes.
Doree: And this is kind of dark. Don't make the mistake of not calling certain homes in the belief people are too poor or too wealthy. The greatest merchants will tell you their largest business comes from the poorest classes. They spend their money liberally.
Kate: Oh no. Oh, no.
Doree: Yeah. But I mean,
Kate: oh no.
Doree: Again, precursor to a lot of the predatory tactics.
Kate: Yeah,
Doree: right.
Kate: Big time.
Doree: Yeah. Yeah. So these were kind of some of the things that formed the basis of the Avon lady. And I just want to play you a commercial Avon's catchphrase was Avon calling
Commercial: I'm Louise Rogers. Won't you play a guessing game with me? Who is this attractive woman? And where is she going? Looking so smart and competent. Everyone knows her, shes well liked in her community. Now see whether you guessed correctly, Avon calling. Yes. She's your Avon representative, a good friend, a good neighbor. Dont you wish you were this happy, resourceful woman. And look at her Jewel pin, a reward for success. She's in the beauty business representing Avon, the world's largest cosmetic company. She brings you cosmetics for the whole family, and she invites you to have an Avon tryon to be sure your Avon representative will be delighted to call on you wherever you live. Just get in touch with us at Avon. Avon calling.
Kate: I can hear my mom and aunt doing like saying Avon calling us a little bit. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. I remember. I mean, think I vaguely remember that. That's the slogan or was the slogan. But I can just hear anytime an Avon product got whipped out and how fascinating, the comfort level of the time, just someone knocking on your door and you welcoming them in and then just buying products from them.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: Like your neighborhood Stranger Avon lady.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: I would be Get the fuck off my step.Who do you think you are?
Doree: Oh, well, Kate, what did you notice about the women portrayed in this commercial?
Kate: Okay. Well, they're all obviously white, attractive, middle-aged women. But what's interesting to me is that they're selling, they're, you want to be this woman beloved by all. They're kind of selling this interesting image that they are trying to appeal to. And what's interest, what's interesting to me is this commercial so old, and it's a time where women were often not encouraged to work out of the home. So it's intriguing to me that they were kind of selling this. And I also just love that they mentioned that she gets a, it's like, look at her attractive pin. She got that selling Avon. It's like,
Doree: Which by the way, they still have jeweled pins.
Kate: Oh, I believe it. It's like a tradition.
Doree: For their sales reps. And we have to take a break in a minute, but I want to highlight one thing that you said, which is about the propriety of women working at this time. Because I think there is a distinction. Single young single women we're kind of allowed to work as secretaries or teachers until they got married. But once you got married, you were assumed to be taken care of by your husband. But this was a profession that was acceptable for married women to do.
Kate: That's fascinating.
Doree: Yes. I think because it was just selling to other women. This was during the middle of the day, this woman is calling on another woman who is home alone in the middle of the day because she doesn't work. And so that is the assumption that you're calling on all your friends in your neighborhood who are stay at home moms probably who are just around in the middle of the day waiting for you to ring their doorbell. But also because you are selling beauty products that
Kate: For the whole family
Doree: For the whole family, that is also kind of considered acceptable. So we're going to take a short break, and then we're going to come back to talk a little bit about skin so soft. All right, Kate, we have returned and we're going to start with another commercial.
Commercial: Let skin so soft by Avon, turn your bath into a beautifying experience. Skin So soft is a beauty bath. It means exactly what it says, soft, soft skin. One cat full turns a bath into your own private plan with a fresh woodsy scent where everything is relaxed and comforting and soft. Especially you. Skin So soft, silken and smooths you, helps you feel smoothed and soft. So soft turns your bath into a beautifying experience. Your Avon representative will show you skin So soft beauty, bath oil, and soap. Ask her about Avon's wide selection of cosmetics for beauty care. Avon calling with skin so soft and other cosmetics for beauty care.
Kate: Just want to say, I really want to have that mid-century modern house that's featured at the end there of the commercial that the Avon lady goes to. I was like, this is a great house.
Doree: So I don't know exactly when this commercial aired because it was in a compilation of Avon commercials. It just says from the 1960s. But I think that this was probably not, probably a few years after Avon first launched, first all the commercials in color. So I don't think it was the super early sixties, but it's definitely pitched as a luxurious product to your earlier point, right?
Kate: Yeah. We're getting in the bath. It looks great.
Doree: It's very sensual. Also,
Kate: It is when the woman is in her floral painted bathtub and she just kind of wows the time away. It's like, Ooh, yes. This is kind of steamy.
Doree: And it's like, it's interesting too, because who is this woman? What is she doing? No other family or friends in the commercial. So to me, this kind of reads like, oh, this is something really special you do for yourself.
Kate: Oh, this is their self-care.
Doree: Yes, this is treating yourself. You deserve this. And there's no mention of make your skin soft for your husband or anything like that.
Kate: It's gross.
Doree: You know what I mean?
Kate: Yes, I do.
Doree: I think that could have easily been part of the message, and it's just not like we see this woman. I mean, there, it's, she's by a crack. There's a crackling fireplace, there's flowers, but she's by herself. She is just enjoying luxuriating in this Avon skin So soft bath oil. So I think it's really interesting that that was clearly how they were kind of initially positioning this product.
Kate: They were like, are you going to masturbate today? I take a skin So soft bat, it's kind of like that. I mean, I'm not joking. It's like kind of sexualized.
Doree: Yes. The voiceover is very sexy. So I think that that is very interesting. So this is how things are in the 1969 catalog. There's a little display of the various skin So soft products, there's skin, so soft bath oil, there's some talk with skin so soft scent, there's some soap. There's an after shower smoother also in the skin so soft scent, but it's, it's all very bath oriented.
Kate: Yeah. I didn't know it was a bath oil first. I just assumed it was a skin oil, like a dry oil, if you will.
Doree: So then by the mid seventies, something happens.
Kate: Oh no,
Doree: We don't know who the first person who figured out that skin so soft allegedly worked as an insect repellent, whoever that was, if anyone ever even knew, has been lost to history. But what we do know, thanks to a lawsuit that was filed in the nineties, more on that later, as early as the mid seventies competitors such as SC Johnson who make Off were conducting studies to see if skin Soof actually worked as an insect repellent.
Kate: Oh, interesting. So they were onto something.
Doree: They were onto something, and they knew that somehow people had started using skin so soft as a bug repellent, and they wanted to know, hey, does this actually work? So definitely by the mid seventies, there was a growing awareness of something about skin so soft that people thought it worked as an insect repellent. And this was not because of Avon's advertising and marketing. They were marketing this as a bath oil.
Kate: So something,
Doree: Yes. Who knows what originally happened. Was it someone who took, used the skin so soft after shower smoother and went outside and didn't get bit?
Kate: Yeah,
Doree: We don't know. But what we do know is that by the early eighties, we really start to see skin so soft getting mentioned in the media as this kind of secret insect repellent.
Kate: Here we go.
Doree: And what's even more interesting to me is that most of the people we see quoted are men who do outdoorsy things like hunters, fishermen, horse people. Okay, so here's some examples. There's a 1983 New York Times article about traveling to South Carolina that just as sort of an aside says, local people use a bath oil called skin so soft made by Avon against the No see-ums, which are little kind of nat, nat like,
Kate: Oh, they're terrible. And you can't see them.
Doree: You literally cannot see them. A reader writes into Barons, which is a financial newspaper in 1983, suggesting that they write about skin so soft because he uses it on people and horses. Then there's it kind of like how sometimes you can trace this. This is something that I think we can actually trace the impact of.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: There's a Dear Abbey column in 1984. So for people who aren't familiar in the, I don't know, when did they start? Maybe the sixties, fifties, sixties. There were two dueling advice columns, dear Abbey and Anne Landers, and they were syndicated and newspapers across the country. So I mean, they had readerships in the millions. They were identical twin sisters.
Kate: That is so wild.
Doree: And rivals. And so we're really talking about the peer age of mass media. So when something ran in Dear Abby or Anne Landers, we can't even conceive of this now because it doesn't exist anymore, but
Kate: Right.
Doree: Millions and millions of people were reading this in their local newspapers. So in 1984, a Louisiana Duck Hunter writes into Dear Abbey,
Kate: Oh my God.
Doree: And says, the only truly effective mosquito repellent used by duck hunters in these parts stop is a product made by Avon called Skin So Soft. And they go on to say, if you think I'm making this up, come to New Orleans and look around the sporting goods stores, and you'll see skin so soft on the shelves right next to the commercial insect repellants.
Kate: This is wild. Seriously?
Doree: Yes. And this is huge, right? She runs this in her column and the follow. A couple weeks later, an Avon rep writes into, say, Abby, if this is true, the Avon company would like to know the names of the stores, because Avon products are sold only by Avon representatives who call all on customers in their homes. I should know, I've been an Avon representative for 18 years.
Kate: Oh my God. So she unintentionally caused some drama.
Doree: Correct. What I suspect happened, and I do not know this for a fact, but what I'm going to guess is that someone connected to the sporting good stores, maybe a woman who worked in the store, or whose husband worked in the store sold Avon and just sold it out of the store.
Kate: Totally. Because, yeah, that seems reasonable,
Doree: Right? Because it wasn't sold in the stores, in the same way that I think at my summer camp, there was probably some counselor or administrator who was an Avon person, because you couldn't just buy it wholesale and sell it.
Kate: Right?
Doree: Anyway, so later articles refer to this Dear Abbey column as being one of the things that spread the gospel of skin so soft.
Kate: Oh my God, this is so weird.
Doree: And then, you know, keep seeing it come up. But it's always mentioned as a locals say, And then there's an article in 1986 in the San Diego Tribune where they actually call Avon, and they're like, what is the deal with skin so soft? Because they say that a reader suggested using skin so soft to keep fleas off your pets. And the Avon spokesperson says, it really is a bath oil. We want to sell it as a bath oil. Frankly, I would be turned off to the idea of buying it as a bath oil. Whoa. If they associated it with all these smelly, sticky, repulsive insect repellants,
Kate: Ugh. This is an example of a company missing the mark. It's like,
Doree: well, I dunno.
Kate: Okay, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead.
Doree: We'll get to that in a bit.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: But this just kind of goes on. There's even researchers from the American Animal Hospital Association do a study and they sponge a dog in wa, like a BA skin, so soft, like diluted, diluted skin, so soft, and they claim it cuts the flea infestations on dogs that if you give a dog like a flea dip, then you use skin so soft, the skin, so soft will enhance the flea dip. And by 1989 in Avon's annual report, they write that it is the most popular product in Avon's catalog in the United States. That year it grew by 50%.
Kate: Oh my goodness. 50%.
Doree: 50%. So it was huge, but I would say by the late eighties, it had fully become this word of mouth sensation. We're going to take another break, Kate. I know this has been a lot of information.
Kate: Yeah, I am overwhelmed. Okay. Okay.
Doree: But after the break, we're going to t, we're going to touch on a little bit of what you kind of said before about why Avon didn't quote capitalize on
Kate: Yes.
Doree: The popularity.
Kate: Okay. Yes.
Doree: We'll be back,
Kate: tell me everything. Okay.
Doree: Okay. We're back, Kate. You know, you and I both do a lot of research for these episodes. We come across old ads, we come across old magazine articles, we come across drugstore newspaper ads. We come across
Kate: So much weird stuff.
Doree: Articles are so much weird stuff. But imagine my surprise when in the course of my research for this episode, I came across the decision of a lawsuit that was, I don't want to get too in the weeds, but basically the lawsuit was a counterclaim filed by SC Johnson against Avon.
Kate: Huh. Okay.
Doree: And Avon alleges that Avon, sorry, SC Johnson alleges that they had violated the Lanam Act, which is basically has to do with trademark, and that they had engaged in unfair competition by marketing and selling skin so soft as an insect repellent. Now, normally, whatever, a lawsuit like this, it would be interesting, but not that interesting. But who was the judge that wrote this decision? It was none other than Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor.
Kate: Oh my God. Our first celebrity cameo.
Doree: Our first celebrity cameo. So this was when she was a judge for the Southern, she was a judge for the Southern District of New York, and there had been a couple other judges on the case before her, because there were suit lawsuits and counter suits and blah, blah, blah. And then this was sort of the final, then it got assigned to her, and this was the final decision. And she rules in favor of Avon.
Kate: Oh my goodness.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Wow. Didn't expect that. Okay. Yeah. She says, I find that Avon has to a limited extent marketed skin so soft as an insect repellent, but that skin so soft is sufficiently effective as an insect repellent, that avon's actions do not violate the Lanam Act or the New York General business law and do not constitute common law unfair competition. But then she also says, Wait a second. Oh yeah, okay. She also says that SC Johnson basically waited too long to bring the suit, because if you remember earlier in the episode, I mentioned that as early as the mid seventies, EE Johnson was conducting tests about avon's skin. So soft. So she's basically, you've known about this for 20 years. Why did you wait until now to bring this? And what she basically points out is that Avon has really managed to thread a very fine needle regarding skin so soft, and I'll tell you why.
Kate: What a savvy bunch. Okay.
Doree: Oh, now they're savvy.
Kate: Yeah, I know. I'm just changing my tune here. Okay.
Doree: Oh, okay. So in 1987, Avon gets a letter from the EPA quote stating that certain literature and advertising for skin so soft was in violation of federal law because skin so soft was not an insect repellent. It was a bath oil, And Avon was kind of like wink, wink, nudge, nudging it. So yes, when someone called up Avon, they couldn't say that it was an insect repellent. But what the EPA was saying was basically, well, you're not saying it's not an insect repellent. So Avon sort of panics. I think at this point, they send out this letter telling the, or at least I shouldn't say panics. They seem to want to cover their asses legally. So they send a letter to all of the sales reps and all the district managers, regional managers, blah, blah, blah. They say, do not promote skin so soft as an insect repellent. And they basically send yearly reminders about this. But then they get another letter from the EPA in 1993 that warned Avon that the continued promotion of skin so soft as an insect repellent could constitute a violation of federal law.
Kate: Oh my goodness. Come on.
Doree: So to your earlier point, they legally could not say that skin so soft was an insect repellent, because to say that something is an insect repellent means that it's gone through all of these tests,
Kate: I see
Doree: And has approval and this and that, and they never did that. I think at one point they kind of looked into doing that, and then they didn't. And Sotomayor writes, I find that avon's response to the widespread consumer perception that skin so soft is an effective insect, repe, insect repellent has been a mixed one. So this is what I mean about them sort of trying to thread this fine needle, because she writes, although Avon's general corporate policy is to discourage the promotion of skin so soft as an insect repellent, Avon has clearly sought to reap the benefits of the repellency folklore.
Kate: Yeah. I mean you, I don't hold that against them.
Doree: Also, just as an aside, this decision is very entertaining reading, and you can really get a sense of Sotomayor's personality, and she clearly seemed to sort of relish writing this.
Kate: Repellency folklore is an excellent phrase.
Doree: Yes. She actually opens the lawsuit by writing an FR gallin importing company versus b n s International Sales Corp, like blah, blah, blah. The Southern District 1960 judge friendly posed the question, what is chicken? This case poses the question, what is insect repellent?
Kate: Oh my God. Okay.
Doree: I feel like she's just loving this.
Kate: Oh, this is bonkers.
Doree: And she's basically like, Avon is kind of having it both ways, but because they have been so emphatic on at the corporate level about the fact that it's not an insect repellent, we can't hold them liable for what all these other people are saying about them. And she goes through all this evidence that it really was word of mouth and the media. There's another article in addition to the Dear Abbey article. There's another article in the New York Times in 1988 that is also cited as this Seminole Skin so soft article.
Kate: This is wild. Okay, yes, I'm ready.
Doree: They're gardening columnist, fine skin so soft for sale at a roadside fruit and vegetable sand.
Kate: Oh, big trouble.
Doree: And then he's like, Hmm, what's this? And he buys it, and he claims that it keeps the nats away and the flies.
Kate: Okay, so I'm going to go with that It works.
Doree: And he asks, the whole column is about how he goes around asking people if they've heard about skin so soft. And everyone's like, oh, yeah, that works as an insect repellent. And he's how, he's basically, how am I the last to know? But this was another article about, it's basically saying, Hey, here's this thing that has gotten popular through word of mouth, and this is something that Sotomayor cites as like, well, we can't really hold Avon responsible for all these random people just being like, Hey, it works as an insect repellent. So she ends up ruling in favor of Avon. So
Kate: Who knew this was going to get so legally twisted,
Doree: I mean, with a cameo from a Supreme Court Justice.
Kate: I love it.
Doree: So just as a sort of coda to all of this, you asked early on in the episode about Avon and MLMs, and I regret to inform you that today, Avon does have more of an MLM structure. It's not as pred I will, I don't think it is quite as intense as some other MLMs, but there is an emphasis now more on recruiting salespeople and you know, you get credit for how much your team sells and all that kind of stuff. But there's no cost to join. There's some MLMs that you have to pay $2,000 for. I think that was one of the big things about LuLaRoe. Do you remember that people were paying thousands of dollars just to get started in LuLaRoe. So you don't have to do that with Avon, but it now has this much more MLM esque structure. And the North American business is now owned by lg, the Korean company that makes appliances
Kate: Like our washing machines and such, TVs? wow ok.
Doree: So They have a division called LG Health and Household that, by the way, also owns Belief, the Korean Skincare brand.
Kate: Yeah. Okay.
Doree: Yeah. So if you go to avon's website, you can actually buy Belief on their website.
Kate: Whoa. Okay. What a twist. Okay.
Doree: All right. And if you're interested in learning more about their selling business, they do have a 30 page brochure on their website that kind of details all of the rewards you can get and the selling process. And there is an award called the Pinnacle Award that quote, honors star performers in sales and leadership, and it is shaped like a pyramid
Kate: Stop. Are they in on the joke? What is that about,
Doree: Kate? Look, I don't know. I'm going to send it to you and you can tell me what you think. Am I reading into this too much? I don't think I am, but you let me know.
Kate: Oh, boy. Okay. Hold on. I don't think this, no, I think it's fine.
Doree: You don't think this looks like a pyramid? It's literally a triangle.
Kate: Yes. But I wouldn't look at this, and I don't think they're like Tehehe, were a pyramid.
Doree: Oh, no, no, no. I don't either. I just think it's sort of funny.
Kate: Oh, a hundred percent.
Doree: That people talk about these types of companies as being in a pyramid structure and their big award is shaped like a triangle.
Kate: Very true.
Doree: Very true. I'm just pointing out the irony of this. Well, Kate, I think that just about brings us to the end. I mean, I obviously could talk for a long time about all of these things, but I think that that gives you a general sense of how this product became more well known for something it was not meant to be doing, And how the company
Kate: And it is still used for it.
Doree: And it is still used. I don't think it is as popular. I did a search on TikTok. There's not really many people talking about Avons skin so soft. The people that are like, oh, this stuff my grandmother used to put on me in the summers in Texas. It hasn't really infiltrated the Zoomers, but yeah, that's Avon skin so soft,
Kate: Maybe they will. Maybe they will tap back into it. I guess you still have to buy it from an Avon sales person though, right?
Doree: No, actually you can buy it in a retail shop now.
Kate: Oh, now I want to buy some,
Doree: I mean, you can buy, some can also buy it from their website.
Kate: I honestly might buy some.
Doree: Great, I look forward to your review.
Kate: I'm actually very curious on if it actually works or if it was just the magic of something good smelling.
Doree: I mean, the various studies were done over the years, and there were a couple that were like, yes, it works. But the vast majority have said it does not actually work as an insect repellent. Now that said, there's so much of this anecdotal evidence. That's what kind of is intriguing to me, that if it actually doesn't work, then why do so many people think it works?
Kate: And this is what's fascinating is like, do we just think it works because we've been told it works? Do we think it works? Because it has the allure of a product that's not doing what it was supposed to do. But then you think back to those Louisiana fishermen and hunters,
Doree: Right?
Kate: And now they even make, I'm looking on their website, they make skin, so soft bug guard plus now they just fully lean into it.
Doree: I didn't even get into that. They ended up buying a company in the nineties that made bug spray, and they combined it with skin so soft to make an actual bug spray. And there's a kid's version of it that has sunscreen in it that Ooh, people. But I've read reviews of it that were like, we don't, I think Consumer reports reviewed it and they were like, we don't like combo products because you're supposed to reapply sunscreen pretty frequently, but then you end up getting too much bug spray on you.
Kate: Ooh, okay, that makes sense.
Doree: So I was like, Hmm, that does make sense. But anyway, yes, they have you can now buy, or you have been able to buy since the nineties, like a combination skin, so soft actual bug spray. But I don't think that that has stopped people from just using the traditional skin so soft as an insect repellent
Kate: Doree look, I'm got to tell you, honestly, I am clicking add to cart right now.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: And I think I'm going to buy the bug spray and the original and maybe an antiperspirant.
Doree: Kate, I look forward to your review.
Kate: I didn't know that this would end here with me on avon.com.
Doree: I Mean, look at this,
Kate: But it's calling to me. I want to smell it, I think is what's what it is. I want the sensory experience of my youth. Ugh,
Doree: That's beautiful.
Kate: Well, this has been a pleasure, Doree. Thank you. I Don't even know what to say. Thank you for this magical conversation.
Doree: You're so welcome. I'm so glad we got to share it. I also just want to add that dear Abby and Ann Landers married their husbands in a double wedding ceremony. Yes.
Kate: Before the feud or after the feud.
Doree: Yes, before. Alright, on that note.
Kate: Wow.
Doree: Bye everyone.
Kate: Bye.