Mini-Ep 321: Bring Back Chit Chat

Kate and Doree get in the summer intenchie zone; Kate decides to be more present and Doree aspires to chit chat with friends more. Then, they hear from passionate listeners weighing in on having a partner in serious financial debt.

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Transcript

 

Kate: Hello, welcome to Forever35. This is a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. And I'm Kate Spencer,

Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir

Kate: And we're not experts.

Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Kate: And this is a mini episode where we hear from you. We share your comments and your thoughts, and we answer your questions to the best of our ability.

Doree: And please remember we are podcast host. We're not experts. We always encourage you to seek support first and foremost, from a medical and or a mental health professional as needed.

Kate: If you wanna reach us, please leave us a voicemail or send us a text message at 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9 0. You can also email us or send us a voice memo at forever 35 podcast. gmail.com

Doree: Indeed. Um, and you can visit our website 30 podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show. Those are also@shopmyshelf.us slash five. You could follow us on Twitter at five pod on Instagram at forever five podcast. Join the forever 35 Facebook group Facebook do com slash groups slash podcast, the password OFS, and do sign up for our newsletter podcast. Do slash newsletter. Uh, despite it's being on hiatus, it still exists.

Kate: Yeah, it's just taking a break. Like

Doree: We just taking a little break. Yep, yep. Yep. Well, Kate, how's it going?

Kate: Yes. Da da door. You know, I think this episode comes out on July 15th, which is for whatever reason in my brain, what I think is the exact middle of summer school, at least for my children starts in the middle of August, which is hard to wrap my head around sometimes. Um, so yeah, we have to kind of, we find ourselves back, you know, we always try to do something in July and then we find ourselves back here prepping for school in August, beginning of August.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: Extremely odd.

Doree: Yeah. So I think maybe in the past, I wouldn't have thought of July 15th as the middle of the summer, but now it does feel like the middle of the summer.

Kate: Well, and let, let us note that we are in cancer season, which is, you know, a moody homey moon focused time of the year. Cause of course the sign of, of this time is cancer

Doree: And you are a cancer

Kate: And I am a cancer Aquarius Aquarius, and I truly embody both those astrological signs. It's a lot,

Doree: I I'm a TAUs Taurus Aquarius,

Kate: You know, what is so wild? I think that the Aquarius thing is what I think unites us both in this podcast because the Aqua aquariums are all about like communi community and communicating and connecting people. And I truly think that is one of the reasons why we are both drawn to this sort of work.

Doree: That's so interesting. You know, there's no, um, there's no cancer. I don't think there's any cancers in my family.

Kate: Oh yeah. There is Doree me. I'm a part of your family now.

Doree: I mean, that is your

Kate: Podcast family. True.

Doree: That is great. Your

Kate: Husband's outta cancer. Why did I think

Doree: My husband's my husband's a Leo.

Kate: Oh, that he is such a Leo. And also that I think I equate him as a cancer because he and I are both. Are we both lefthanded or is it just that we both have ADHD? And so I think we're the same.

Doree: No, no, you're both lefthanded.

Kate: Okay. I think, I feel like Matt and I have a few similarities that I'm always like you do, or maybe it's just cuz Matt's your husband and I'm your business partner. So I'm like, me and Matt are the same. You

Doree: Basically,

Kate: I need to talk to my therapist about that.

Doree: Yeah. I mean, I was telling someone, someone the other day that like when we interviewed Heidi rose Robins, she really blew my mind when she said that signs sort of cluster in families.

Kate: I know, I think about that all the time

Doree: Because my family has a huge tourist cluster and then we also have a Gemini cluster and then there is a small Leo cluster.

Kate: Yeah. My family has clusters as well.

Doree: Yeah. It's very, it's super interesting. Yep. Um, so I dunno, just, just thinking, thinking about that, but you wanted to think about something else today.

Kate: Well, I kind of pitched to you this idea of like, what are our summer intentions like in my brain, the summer's already half over, which is not true obviously. And I understand summer end September, whatever, whatever 21st, but like what are our intentions for the rest of the summer? What are we gonna do if it's gotten off on the wrong foot, which obviously, you know, culturally it has fuckers up in Washington and around the globe, whoa, sorry, just tiptoeing onto the old soapy B. Um, how are we gonna, what intentions are we setting for ourselves in, in the terms of, of whatever that means in terms of like our self care, you know, it's such a broad term, the old self care umbrella. And I'm just trying to think of like, how, what am I, how am I intentionally going to focus my time and energy over the next few weeks of this summer season?

Kate: Because for me, well, one I'm on a book deadline. So it's a really important work time for me. Yes. Um, two, I feel like, I feel really passionately about the fact that you and I have committed to taking time off because I really do feel like, you know, we work really hard on this podcast and it is important to me this, that we are setting a boundary for ourselves and really also like really taking time off, not like being on vacation, but still working, you know, on the side, which I think we've both done many times

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kate: And another thing that I like about summer is it's a time where I get to see my extended family and I also get to spend kind of different time with my children, which is really important.

Doree: Yes.

Kate: So those are just, and also get to kind of be in nature maybe in a different way. If I'm lucky I get to go to the east coast, which is different than where I live, you know, all these things and then incorporating of course, all the challenges of summer, you know, the fact that we're in a drought and there are gonna be fires burning near us. And the climate change is evident and the gas prices are up, you know, all the other things that it means. Um, wow. I'm rambling. I guess what I'm saying is what are your intentions for these last few weeks of summer?

Doree: Um, oh, I have to go first.

Kate: I can go first. I can spitball some.

Doree: Why don't you go first?

Kate: Okay. So for me, I want to be very intentional with my time. Not like I need everything to be scheduled, but I really want to, to take a minute to ask myself, like, is this really what I wanna be doing with this time that I have? Mm. You know, is it really necessary to be, um, reading the New York times website again for the 50th time today right now? Or could I be looking at a book for 20 minutes or could I be like doing my gratitude journal or could I be, you know, like making a phone call to my Senator? I think sometimes I get swept up in passive activities rather than action.

Doree: What is an example of a passive activity?

Kate: Um, scrolling Instagram.

Doree: OK, OK. Yeah.

Kate: Looking ATS, which I love doing, but, you know.

Doree: Right, right.

Kate: Um, so that is one thing, the other thing. So today do I fell asleep at, around a little after 11 last night and my daughter had to wake me up at seven 30 this morning, which is normally I'm up like between six and six 30, kind of just on my own, but my body was like zonked and that's telling me that I'm tired and I really need to rest

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kate: And so keeping that in mind is how am I going to give myself some rest and like real rest?

Doree: Yeah. Yeah.

Kate: The other thing is, is making sure. And really like when I'm spending time with people that I'm present, you know, I get to see my, my extended family so rarely, and they're very important to me. And so I'm trying to remind myself to be as present as I can to not, you know, take for not, not to, you know, it's human to take things for granted in the moment. Like that's just a natural part of being a person. But just to kind of remind my, like, take a step back and remind myself, like this time is important to me.

Doree: Yes. I love that.

Kate: And also I'm gonna work on my tan.

Doree: Oh, okay. How 1985,

Kate: You just

Doree: Lately St. And my grow and strengthen my community. That's an intention for the summer.

Kate: Probably really admire that.

Doree: It's probably gonna be like an ongoing intention, not just for the summer, but, um, I'm gonna I'm I, I wanna like really focus on that. You know, I've been one of my good friends who lives in New York. We've been calling each other on the phone a lot, like Tori, like a couple times a week, or she'll just be like, Hey, can I call you? And I'm like, yeah. And it's so nice. Like, and we talked the other day and I was thinking like, there's no, there's nothing like pressing that I need to talk to her about, but we just kinda like chit chatted <laugh>.

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: And that was really nice. And I just wanna do that more. I think I like sh you know, it's like, I feel like it was kind of this like stance for a long time of like, I hate the phone and now I'm like, I kinda love the phone. Mm. And I also want more of these just sort of casual conversations. Like, I don't want every phone call to have to be this like, scheduled, like, and, and you know, that there's always like a crisis or, or a reason or something. Like, I wanna bring back the casual phone call

Kate: That reminds me of just my mom standing in the kitchen, on their phone. Totally. The long cord long but long stretched out cord mm-hmm <affirmative> just chatting with a friend,

Doree: Just chatting. Just chit-chatting. Yeah.

Kate: Just chit-chatting I think this is a beautiful intention,

Doree: You know, you, and now that I'm talking about this,

Kate: Go on,

Doree: I'm realizing that like chit chat is not the same as small talk, small talk is something that you do with like acquaintances or people you've just met at a party, but like chit chat is something that you do with like your really close friends.

Kate: You and I chit chat before every podcast at we

Doree: Do chit chat. Yes, we

Kate: Do. We chat a lot.

Doree: We do. And we, so it's like, we are BA we basically have phone calls with each other. We,

Kate: We talk every day,

Doree: But I do

Kate: Feel like the, the, the kind of the group text is also like the group text amongst close friends. That's also like a chit chat extension of the chit chat.

Doree: Well, and, you know, sometimes people do the voice memo thing in the group text.

Kate: I love that tool.

Doree: And that is like a little chit chat and like, yeah. And actually another friend, another friend, um, who is in one of my more active group texts, like, she's another one who I feel like we've just, and she doesn't live here in Los Angeles, but she's another one who I, I feel like we've been like talking on the phone more. I dunno. Maybe it's just like something about this moment or where I'm at in my life, or again, this like need for connection and community and the, I, I do maybe. And maybe because I'm a podcaster, I'm sort of more attuned to the intimacy of audio, but I do think there is something really powerful about phone calls.

Kate: Yeah. I, I, I I'm with you. I think it's it's

Doree: So

Kate: It's also, we've gotten so disconnected in how we communicate over the last 20 years.

Doree: Yes.

Kate: You know, like, and it's can feel so discombobulating too. Like, you know, like someone just sent me like a work request over Instagram DM, and like some, and I often struggle with, like, I don't even know where my conversations are happening cuz there's so many freaking places that they can happen. Yes. Yes. So it's become so chaotic that there's something really grounding about the phone call.

Doree: Yes. And you know, someone <laugh>, I was emailing with someone, a woman. I know. And I think as soon as she got my email, she picked up the phone and called me and we, and she's not, she's not a close friend. She's not someone that I talked to a lot, but we talked for like more than half an hour. And it was a combination of just kind of like a little gossip, little catch phone call. That was nice phone call.

Kate: I also like that there's no confusion about tone or intention in a phone call.

Doree: Yes, totally.

Kate: Whereas God, there is over text and email, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> and it's like, I'm just exhausted by it at this point.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: So maybe like, yeah. So this is the season of chit chat.

Doree: I wanna bring back Chi

Kate: Bring back chit chat.

Doree: So that's my intention now, Kate, we

Kate: Have,

Doree: We have a lot to talk about on this episode, after we get back from our break,

Kate: This was one of the, the greatest ground swells of responses that we've ever received.

Doree: Yeah. And, you know, opinion was really split.

Kate: We're talking about dealing with a partner who's in debt.

Doree: Yeah. So we're gonna take a break and then we're gonna dig into this.

Kate: All right. Can't wait.

Doree: All right. Be right back. Okay. Kate,

Kate: I almost feel like I need a squirt of mist on my face to just kind of warm up for this. Hold on here. Ugh. Shout out to 1 0 7. Do we glow?

Doree: I will admit that I sort of structured this episode. Um, all of the stuff that we're gonna hear and read in this segment is stuff that is kind of advocating for the like work it out, um, side of things, like kind of disagreeing with what, like not totally disagreeing with what I had to say. I think it was mostly me kinda talking about this. Not that you didn't, but you know what I mean? I feel like I had the, I had the very strong feelings <laugh> about this. Um, and then we're gonna hear from some listeners who, uh, kind of saw things more from my perspective, but I, you know, before we get into it, I do just wanna say, I really appreciated all of these emails. And it did make me think a lot about, you know, the things that I had said and my perspective.

Doree: So thank you listeners. So Kate, we're gonna kick things off with an email.

Email: Hello, Kate and Doree. I wanted to write in on the topic of Monday's episode, but the listener with a partner in debt and financial uncertainty, as I like to call it, basically this happened to me and I was the one who had the debt. I've had many struggles in my life, including becoming an adult at 16 and having to move out on my own. I was never taught how to manage money and basically hobbled along when I met my now husband, he knew I wasn't well off, but he didn't know how much debt I was in or how bad my credit was. Long story short. When I finally talked to him about it more than a year into dating, I came up with a game plan on how to fix my debt issue and my credit fast forward, five years later, I'm debt free besides my car and home and an 8 0 5 credit score better than his. If he had seen my financial issue as a red flag or deal breaker, we wouldn't have the wonderful life we have now with a baby due in just 11 days, moral of the story, even if they are our significant other, we aren't always going to know the why behind things like this. Also, we can't fully understand someone's situation until they decide they trust us enough to unload. Now, if the listeners partner just doesn't care about his debt or doesn't plan to fix it, that's time to run. But I say, hear him out and see if he has a game plan.

Kate: I like this.

Doree: I do too. I really appreciate this perspective.

Kate: I had some debt and I had very bad credit when Anthony and I got together, my credit has significantly improved, but it was a real learning process for me. I didn't truly, I, I never really understood even like what credit was for a long time.

Doree: Well, and I think this points to just a kind of bigger picture problem in our society, which is like the lack of financial literacy and like, why is this stuff not taught in schools? It's criminal that it's not taught in schools.

Kate: Well, and it's also like,

Doree: We're all just supposed to figure it out.

Kate: Yeah. And it's so predatory too, the way in which they operate that it's.

Doree: Yes.

Kate: Yeah. So I can understand how quickly this could happen.

Doree: Totally, totally. Um, Kate, do you wanna take this next one?

Kate: I would love to.

Email: Kat and Dor I'm a longtime listener and have never written in, but I just listened to mini 3, 1, 2, and I can't stop thinking about the boyfriend and debt. So many thoughts first off, I think we have to avoid over moralizing. The concept of debt, like Doree said, debt is a data point, but I think it's unfair to automatically assume this as a moral failing of the boyfriend, the listener did not mention exactly what kind of debt he has. Is he overspending and irresponsible with money resulting in tons of credit card debt? Or did he have to take out student loans and borrow money for basic needs, like a bed and a car? I'm guessing that given the journalism work, he may have obtained a graduate degree and then had to take some low paying jobs in the years after school. So it's not unimaginable that he wouldn't have paid off that debt by 31. I would also encourage the listener to think about their own privileges, if any, that may have allowed them to avoid such debt. Did parents pay for college if attended and have they always had the money needed for basic living expenses? Perhaps the boyfriend hasn't had the same luck, regardless if they downright disagree about finances and how to manage money, it does seem like a negative sign for the future of the relationship. But if the listener is happy and this seems like her person, then I don't think the debt should stand in their way though. She should be clear about her expectations for them to get on the same page financially though, it sounds like he's pre being pretty vulnerable by opening up about his finances and struggles and is very likely serious about their future together. If he's willing to open up and ask for support, what resources can we provide to help him get on his feet? I love frugal living blogs, like frugal, woods.com, financing sites like personal finance and mint and simple living books by Courtney Carver and Kate Flander, who talk about tackling debt and changing spending habits. Maybe there are also grants available for those working in journalism, IDK, but just some thoughts.

Doree: I love the impulse of this listener to like help.

Kate: Yeah. Well, I think that's a great, it's a great point because like, oftentimes it we're just like, this is a problem, but then we don't. Yeah. We don't know what the solution is. You know, we interviewed Tanya Rapley a long time ago and she had some really great tips for dealing with credit card debt.

Doree: Yes. And we also interviewed financial therapist, Amanda Clayman a while ago.

Kate: That's right.

Doree: Who had some great tips about navigating this stuff in a relationship?

Kate: Yeah, because I think it is, it, it can be very fraught with a partner mm-hmm <affirmative>

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> um, alright.

Kate: You know what I'm loving about this, these, the responses too, you know, so we've got responses all the time to different things we talk about on the podcast often they're short, but these, every emails like paragraphs long.

Doree: Totally.

Kate: Yes. I's amazing

Doree: To share.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. People feel really strongly about this. So I'm really grateful that so many people shared with us. You want me to read this next one? Or do you wanna take it away?

Doree: No, no. Go for it.

Kate: Email.

Email: I'm listening to the mini with the boyfriend with debt episode, and I feel compelled to email while listening for the first time. Here's my sort of similar story and it has a happy quote ending. My now husband and I met online and started dating when I was 31, he was 33. He had quite a bit of credit card debt he was struggling with when I met him due to bad decisions in his twenties, I owned my home as a single lady and was doing okay for myself. So I wasn't too concerned, but really disappointed as I was looking for a partner to help with my life goals. Unfortunately, money is a necessity and absolutely makes life easier and better, fast forward to discussing marriage and future. He was extremely worried about his debt wanted to propose, but didn't wanna start life together. Like he was living, he met with a financial counselor, ultimately decided bankruptcy was his best option. Co-signed a car loan with his mom to build up credit after the bankruptcy, under advice from his advisor and did all this right before proposing to me with his widowed mother's ring, by the way, not when he purchased to get into more debt, I was concerned but happy with his initiative and drive to change his finances, everything. But the money thing was perfect. So I stuck with him. It's been six years, six years, and his credit is slowly but surely improving. We're in a fantastic place. He's amazing with money now, better than me and has savings and a retirement fund. I say this because I think if this guy is committed, it can work out and may not be what the color initially expected in a life partner. But if everything else is working for her, but the money aspect and he's a hundred percent to work on it with actions, I don't think it should be an immediate breakup due to the debt. Yes. It meant we stayed in my small single lady home rather than buying a larger home, which everyone else in their thirties around me seemed to be doing. And it meant putting off expensive purchases that we both needed and wanted, but he's the perfect guy for me. And it all worked out. We travel internationally. We have nice things. We're fine. Did we struggle the first few years? Sure. But it was worth it for me, PS. I ended up eventually buying my own damn ring to my liking when I was able let's normalize women as breadwinners.

Doree: <laugh> I love that.

Kate: Okay.

Kate: Yeah. Let's I also think they raise, they raise this listener raises a good point, which is something my mom always used to say to me before she passed was, was I don't she's like, I don't want you to spend a lot of money on your wedding. I would rather you save your money and put it towards something like a house. And like, for some reason that that has followed me, she was so adamant about that. And it, you know, I understand why now. Yeah. Like just this idea of what we spend money on, you know totally. And what it means for us was just interesting to, to hear that from this listener.

Doree: Um, yeah. I really, I really appreciated this perspective as well. Um, alright. On a, on sort of a obviously related, but slightly different note. We have a voicemail.

Voicemail: Hi, this is, this has I'm the who advising the woman who significant other is in serious debt. And I just repay debt to, and also the borrow makes not, it's not help him repay the debt. Bye guys,

Kate: Susan, I love you.

Doree: I mean, <laugh> some real talk from Susan <laugh>

Kate: I know the urgency with which Susan called, made my heart fricking swell. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that's a really good point. And you know, like I'm, I'm so grateful that we're having this conversation with the forever 35 community because everybody has such individual experiences with

Doree: Money. Yes, yes. Right? Yes.

Kate: It that's. I think one of the hardest parts about navigating all of this and our feelings.

Doree: Yeah. Everyone brings their own history and their own baggage and their own experiences to this situation, which is my segue into our next text. I will read this.

Kate: Oh, I can read it. I'm sorry. Want

Doree: Me to read it? Oh no, no. It's okay. No, no, no. It's directed to me.

Kate: Okay.

Email: Writing, re: the BF with debt. I just wanna say that as a normal person who lives in a mid-sized city and is facing inflation in this crazy world, having debt is normal ball caps. And Doree's response is the exact reason why people feel such shame around money. The privilege in Doree's response to this is hard to stomach. The privilege of not having debt met with the chance of meeting a person you love, who is equal or better. Finances is not average. Take a look around. I make six figures and have excellent credit and still struggle because America is on fire. Finding someone who's a good partner and can have honest conversations like the BF is attempting to do is way more valuable to me than someone with money. Read the room. Also seven months is a totally normal time to bring this up. I'm 36 and date.

Kate: I mean, I think this listener makes a good point, which is normalized having debt mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, I think, I think as a country and again, just speaking as an American, uh, lots of us, there's a lot of debt here. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and yet it's still swept under the rug. I, I will say I didn't find your response privileged. I actually found it very grounded in, uh, reality.

Doree: Mm, thank you, Kate.

Kate: But you know, obviously that I'm not this person, but I, I didn't, I didn't find that you were coming from a privileged place. I I, and maybe it's cuz I, I know you personally, but it felt to me like you were coming from a very realistic place based on your own life experiences.

Doree: Yeah. I mean, don't like respond to every criticism by being like that's unfair. But I do think that this, this is like a bit unfair, um, because my point was more that like having money just ma does make things easier. Like that's just, that's that's just the world. I never said don't date. Anyone who has debt. Um, and I think it's like a privilege to say that you have the means to be able to date someone who has no money. Right? Like that's also a privilege. So

Kate: Point counterpoint a point

Doree: Just saying,

Kate: But I mean this, this, this listener, I think also just, it hits home. They say I make six figures and have excellent credit and still struggle because America is on fire. I mean, yeah. This is the re this is the fucking reality of many people's lives. Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Doree: Yeah. I mean, hello. <laugh>

Kate: I know, right? I know

Doree: I I'm living this, like I know. Yeah. I know this. So yeah, I get it listeners. All right. We have returned. Kate, do you wanna take this one?

Kate: Let me clear my throat.

Doree: <laugh>

Email: I had to pause the pod and write off a quick email in response to the caller whose BF of seven months is in heavy debt. Doree. Thank you all caps for your response. You are a hundred percent correct that not only will the relationship probably not work out, but also that the color is under no obligation to be okay with taking on his debt. I am 36 years old and the best lesson I have learned in life is the importance of being financially independent. Again, all caps women are too often told that romantic love is the highest priority or loftiest goal. I say bullshit, financially, being able to take care of yourself and live the life you want independent of a romantic partner or family support is the ultimate self care. Be your own advocate for your future. I'm sure the guy is great, but she'll be happier in the long run and less resentful. She said she's paying for everything. Question mark. Question mark. Question mark. Question mark. If she finds a romantic partner whose financial goals and lifestyles reflect hers off the soapbox. Thanks for being you.

Kate: Wow. Point counterpoint again.

Doree: I know from another

Kate: 36 year olds are really making it happen. I just wanna shout out all you 36 year olds out there. I like you. You're fiery. You're independent. You're smart.

Doree: You've got some life experience under your belts.

Kate: Yeah. 36 year old listeners. Thank you specifically to you for weighing in. Yes, we appreciate you. Wow. I mean, this is a, this is a totally other interesting point, you know? Yeah. I mean, it also kind of leads to the discussion of like, like the value that we put on romantic partnership, but like that's a whole other episode

Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative> whole

Kate: Other episode, but like yeah. You know, you're taking, you are, you may be taking on this person's debt. If you take on the relationship and for many of us, that might be fine. Yeah. And as you pointed out, that is a privilege, but uh, for many of us people don't wanna, they don't wanna.

Doree: Yeah. Which you know, this next email is someone who did take on the debt and we're gonna hear what that has been like for

Kate: Her. Okay.

Email: All right. I was in the exact situation as the person who wrote in about their boyfriend's money issues. This was 12 years ago and I married him. We are still together. He is a great person and I love him, but he is still in debt. And money is a huge stressor for me. He lives beyond our means and his money issues when we met should have been a red flag. However, we were both 27 and being responsible with money. Wasn't a must have in a boyfriend for me at the time. Sounds like the letter writer's boyfriend's debt might not be the result of overspending, but he still doesn't have a relationship with money that will allow them to have the relationship and life they want. When we were dating a couple years, I got really upset that my partner would rather spend frivolously than save for a future together. I'm sort of ashamed to say I was upset. He couldn't afford an engagement ring and constantly talked about wanting to marry me. Now we're almost 40. We make a lot more money than 12 years ago, but have a lot more debt because of the spending. And I find it hard to maintain a healthy relationship with money myself. When my partner still has major issues, it doesn't help that while he has a decent income, I make significantly more than him. And I feel like that enables him while I'm trying to be frugal. Even my family doesn't trust him with money. And one parent has gone as far as to put in her will that he can't have access to anything I, or the child we have together inherent from her. I don't plan on divorcing him, but I'm also aware that if we ever decided to break up his money issues will still affect me. Like having like still having the shoulder, the cost for our kids there by subsidizing his spendy lifestyle, all of this, to say a few things to the letter writer, his debt and relationship with money are signs of things to come. It is okay to break up with someone, if their values around money, aren't compatible with yours. If you stay together, don't combine finances until he's debt proves for extended of like years and you get a pren.

Kate: Wow. Yeah. That's intense. Yeah. That's intense to have your parent put in their will. Yeah. That he can't access the money. I mean, or yeah. I mean that's Mo <laugh> yeah. That's really intense. I can see how that would. All of this would cause a lot of strife in a relationship.

Doree: Yep. A lot of stress, a lot of friction. And like, uh, it, I think it also leads to a dynamic where the, the letter writer in this situation and they don't say this, but I think it's kind of implied. It sort of feels like they have to kind of like nanny their partner.

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: And like, that's not great.

Kate: I mean, I have definitely been the husband in this situation. And,

Doree: And how did that make you feel?

Kate: All of it feels shitty. We've had to have my partner and I, my husband and I have had just have some really like honest conversations about our spend my, like my spending, his spending, our spending, what our money, what our financial goals are as a unit. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> what, like all of it and it's uncomfortable. And money has always made me feel incredibly anxious. You know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> like when I used to get bills, I wouldn't open them. Speaking about how I came into credit car. Mm-hmm <affirmative> like, I didn't, I would, they would make me so anxious that I would like not even be able to look at them. I don't know if anybody else has had that experience, but it's not great. Um, yeah. I mean, that's why like, communication about this stuff is so key, but it's also so hard because you have to be so vulnerable.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: Now I will say we, we use mint and that has been a really good thing for our relationship.

Doree: Mm okay.

Kate: Love a mint.

Doree: Love a mint.

Kate: All right. Well, here's another text we got Doree.

Text: Just listen to the mini up. Okay. Lemme say, oh, just listen to the mini up regarding a partner with significant debt. I'm here to say that's a very difficult situation. I am recently divorced and my ex's debt played a major role. I am financially very stable and extremely lucky to be so, and he is not only in dire financial straits, but hid his financial problems from me for years. Not only did his situation affect me and some of the choices we made as a couple, but I also got caught up in his mess. When my tax refunds started being applied to his old tax liability. I'm talking many thousands of dollars here. This is no joke. And as hard as it may be, I would think long and hard about how much she can put up with. And if she is willing and able to support a partner or family on her own for many years or forever, in my experience, it doesn't get any better. Good luck to her. Yeah. I mean, listen, I'm really appreciating the honest, uh, honest, like communication here from our listeners.

Doree: And you know, like I said before, we kind of started talking about all of these, um, all these listener emails, voicemails, the responses to this really ran the

Kate: Which again. Yeah. Which is again, everyone has their own yeah. Freaking experiences with money, money, money.

Doree: Yep. But I do think it's important to hear all of these perspectives.

Kate: Totally. Because only the only the original listener can know what is right for them.

Doree: Yes. Now this next email was one that really hit close to home for me.

Kate: OK.

Email: My dear stranger and friend, just wanna lovingly call your attention to another piece of data. I always knew I wanted to get pregnant one day too. I assumed it would be easy. I assumed it would be straightforward. And most of all, I assumed it would be free. It was none of those things. You never think infertility will affect you until you arrive at the point where you desperately want a baby, but doing it, the freeway through sex, isn't working. It's a humbling and frightening reality. A lot of people face, although no one really talks about it. So we walk around thinking it's uncommon. IVF is literally tens of thousands of dollars per round. And no one ever expects they'll need it. But my God, it's a relief to have the money. When you do, I'd hate for you to assume pregnancy will happen easily. Of course, I hope it does. I just don't want you to be as shocked as I was. If it doesn't. And on top of that shock, then find you have no savings to help you create the family you always wanted. My son took years to arrive and a shit ton of money. He was worth every penny. But thank God I had those pennies ready to go. Anyway. Just one more example of why having a financial cushion can literally change your life. Love your way. I know you'll whichever.

Kate: Yeah. Do I mean, yeah. Doree, do you wanna speak, speak to this?

Doree: Cause I mean, this listener you've

Kate: Been through this experience.

Doree: Yeah. I mean this, I think this listener put it really, really well. Um, and you know, it, we, we went into debt to pay for IVF and it took us a while to pay it off. Um, and it's also hard before you've done it. I think it's hard to fathom just how much it costs. And also that it's not like guaranteed to work. Yeah. Like I think a lot of people think like, oh, I'll just do IVF. And like, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I'll get a baby, like the first round. And like, yes, that happens for some people. But I would say anecdotally and you know, anecdotally, because I do a podcast about infertility, I've heard from many, many, many people about this. It works on the first go for very few. So, you know, that's just also something to keep in mind. Um, so yeah, I, I really appreciated this listener's email.

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: We're gonna end with a text that I thought just kind of like really got to the heart of all of this. Mm. Do you wanna take this Kate?

Kate: Sure.

Text: I'm texting in response to the listener who emailed about her boyfriend being in debt. My initial reaction is that she should break up with him, not because of the debt, but because the debt would not matter if she were truly in love and ready to build a life with this person, like Kate said, you have to love the whole person. If he was really quote the one for her, this wouldn't be a question they would work together to figure it out. Many harder issues will come along. If they choose to marry a committed couple will find a way to work through each one as they come, not think about bailing as the, as a first reaction. I don't see a breakup in this situation as a bad thing. I see it as her having a understanding of her desires for the future and putting herself first, I would much rather see her go through a short term heartbreak than long term life struggles down the road hugs as she makes this tough decision. Well, hugs,

Doree: Hugs. I, you know, I don't, I personally don't necessarily agree with everything this listener is saying, but I do think the, the kind of the, what I took away from this text is like, it's not the dead itself per se. It's like, it it's that finding out about it has exposed these differences in the way the two of you view your future and your life together. Mm. And that is a little bit more insurmountable than just the fact of having debt

Kate: Really good point. So yeah, it's not the, it's not necessarily the, the actual debt. That is the issue as Doree is so eloquently saying, oh my goodness. So much food for thought here

Doree: So much.

Kate: I just need, like, I honestly think I need like a, an hour to just kind of soak this in,

Doree: You know, I know, right. It's just like,

Kate: Yeah.

Doree: Yeah. So many good perspectives. So many people speaking from their own experience and from all sides of the issue. So, you know, I, I wanna thank everyone who wrote in, I like we got so many,

Kate: I know listeners

Doree: Contacting us about this and I wish we could have heard from everybody. Um, but I'm glad that we got to the people that we did. And thank you to everyone who contacted us and the ER for entrusting with this question.

Kate: Seriously.

Doree: Yeah.

Kate: Well, all

Doree: Right. All right, Kate,

Kate: Till we meet again,

Doree: T T Y L.

 
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