Episode 394: Life, Joy, and Meaning in Uncertain Times with Marisa Renee Lee
Marisa Renee Lee, author of Grief Is Love and her new book Waiting For Dawn, speaks about living a life of joy and meaning through uncertainty and hardship, asking for help in difficult times, and the importance of having a fun thing just for you – even if it’s just watching Heated Rivalry or Bridgerton alone.
Photo Credit: Meredith Heuer.
Mentioned in this Episode
To leave a voicemail or text for a future episode, reach them at 781-591-0390. You can also email the podcast at forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Visit forever35podcast.com for links to everything they mention on the show or shopmyshelf.us/forever35.
Follow the podcast on Instagram (@Forever35Podcast) and join the Forever35 Patreon.
Sign up for the newsletter! Atforever35podcast.com/newsletter.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links.
Transcript
The transcript for this episode is AI generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree Shafrir (00:21):
And today we have a return guest on the show, Marisa Renee Lee. She is so lovely and so interesting.
Elise Hu (00:31):
And she's out with a new book.
Doree Shafrir (00:32):
And she's out with a great new book. Her new book is about uncertainty, which I feel like in these times is very salient.
Elise Hu (00:40):
Unprecedented, now precedented times.
Doree Shafrir (00:44):
Everything's
Elise Hu (00:44):
Unprecedented until it becomes
Doree Shafrir (00:46):
Precedented. Unprecedented. Yes, exactly.
Elise Hu (00:49):
Now we just live in chaos.
Doree Shafrir (00:52):
It's so true. So
Elise Hu (00:53):
True. But speaking of living in chaos-
Doree Shafrir (00:56):
Oh,
Elise Hu (00:56):
Good segue. ...
Doree Shafrir (00:57):
Is
Elise Hu (00:57):
Your decluttering project going.
Doree Shafrir (01:01):
Okay. I have a big update.
Elise Hu (01:03):
Okay.
Doree Shafrir (01:05):
Let me set this up for you. So on Sunday, I took Henry to Kids Space, which is a children's museum here in LA. And Matt didn't come with us. And he was like, "Oh, what am I going to do while you guys are gone?" I was like, "Well, you could get started on the hallway closet." And he was like, "Yeah, okay. I'll do that. " The hallway closet is one of those sliding door reach-in closets. And it had literally just become a repository of randomness and stacks of things. Also, the doors were off the track. So you could barely even get into it. And then outside the closet was all this other stuff that should have been in the closet, like our Costco snacks. But you didn't
Elise Hu (01:56):
Dare slide the door open for
Doree Shafrir (01:58):
Fear that the door
Elise Hu (01:59):
Wouldn't close again.
Doree Shafrir (02:00):
Yeah. There was nowhere to put this stuff. It was so bad. So I got home and Matt had made a big dent, like started filling a huge garbage bag and it looked really good. And he had investigated. He'd done research on bins that we should get to put in there to organize stuff. And I was like, "This is great. I'm getting these from Target right now." So then I got to work on it and it's now done. Well, pretty much the vast majority of it done and everything is out of the hallway.
Elise Hu (02:39):
Holy cow. That's big. That's big.
Doree Shafrir (02:43):
Yeah.
Elise Hu (02:43):
You're almost ready to just show your house.You should have an open house.
Doree Shafrir (02:48):
I mean ...
Elise Hu (02:49):
That's huge. Good for you.
Doree Shafrir (02:53):
Thank you.
Elise Hu (02:53):
I have a hallway closet like that. And I sort of like that it's just like the junk closet because when in doubt, I'll just throw stuff in there. But now you have so much more space in yours.
Doree Shafrir (03:07):
Well, this was also the function of this closet, but it was non-functional.
Elise Hu (03:15):
It was overflowing.
Doree Shafrir (03:16):
It was overflowing. So I said to Matt, I have this one friend who loves before and after decluttering pictures are like her porn. So I was like, you have to take ... And we always forget to take before pictures. So I was like, "You have to take some before pictures." So he took some before pictures and now we have some after pictures. So maybe I'll share those on the Patreon. I don't think I'm ready to have those be for wide public consumption, but I feel like-
Elise Hu (03:42):
The Patreon is very intimate. It's like how Charlene K was talking about ASMR triggers and some people really like the nails on the containers and she really likes a soft voice telling you everything's going to be okay. Your friend likes before and after photos of declearing.
Doree Shafrir (04:00):
We like what we like. Exactly. That's right.
Elise Hu (04:02):
That's right. I'm not going to yuck anyone's yum.
Doree Shafrir (04:05):
Right.
Elise Hu (04:06):
That's rule number four, the Hugh Styles family. Don't yuck my yum.
Doree Shafrir (04:10):
Don't yuck your yum.
Elise Hu (04:12):
So yeah, if you quizzed all the girls, they'd be like, "Oh yes." And rule number four, don't yuck anyone's yum.
Doree Shafrir (04:19):
I mean, I think that's like a good policy in general. Yes.
Elise Hu (04:23):
Yes. Except when I get called out on it.
Doree Shafrir (04:26):
Well, also sometimes it's like, well, you know what? I am going to yuck your yum because what you are describing is disgusting. You know what I mean? My son likes to pick his nose and eat it. Yeah. I am going to yuck that yum. I get it.
Elise Hu (04:42):
As one should.
Doree Shafrir (04:43):
As one should indeed. What's going on with you?
Elise Hu (04:47):
I have some travel coming up, so I will be in St. Louis, the city of my birth. Though as I have mentioned, I probably won't see it because I'll be in a volleyball gym. And what else? I had this recent conversation with Amy Chang, who is a beauty influencer since we do talk about serums. She's very glowy. She's very glowy and dewy. And I know this because I just saw the video of the interview, a video clip of the interview. And we had this great conversation about a lot of Asian beauty standards and we go into the double eyelid surgery, which she got when she was young, I think. And now she said that once she became a mom and she looked into the eyes of her daughter, she was like, "Oh, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have changed my face." Because it's like she could see her original face in her daughter and she was like, "Oh, it was a lovely face the way it was.
(05:42):
I shouldn't have messed with my container." And so anyway, that's how she kind of learned where she wanted to draw the line on some of the cosmetic fixes that we can avail ourselves of these days.
(05:54):
But we do get into the history of double eyelid surgery and how a lot of folks thought it was that Asians were seeking it in order to look more white when flawless and the research for flawless really complicates that because it turns out a Japanese surgeon had actually invented it in 1897, like 60 years before this American Marine surgeon claims he did it because he was operating on sex workers in Korea during the Korean War who were servicing American GIs. And so he's like, "I came up with this so I could quote unquote open the eyes of some of these sex workers." And it turns out, no, actually a Japanese doctor had come up with it way
Doree Shafrir (06:34):
Earlier. That is so interesting.
Elise Hu (06:36):
And he did it to make Japanese people look more like other Japanese people. They weren't
Doree Shafrir (06:43):
Chasing
Elise Hu (06:44):
Any sort of Western standard. They were chasing the standard that half of all Asian people are born with, which are double eyelids.
Doree Shafrir (06:50):
So it's like,
Elise Hu (06:51):
Wait, why are you trying to look why? Why wouldn't you want to just be looking like your Aunt May or whoever who has double eyelids? And so we get into that, which was fun and interesting. Some of y'all probably follow Amy anyway because I think she's pretty big. She started as a beauty blogger back in the days of blogs in the early aughts and then has continued to ride that content creator train into now social video, which is kind of the mode of influencing. What else is going on? Oh, and we went to an Oscar party, an Oscar watch party over the weekend. And there were two separate viewing areas. There's kind of the front house TV and then a backhouse TV. And so, and I just never parked in the right place because I'm always standing by the food. That's where you'll always find me at a party.
(07:42):
If I'm going to park anywhere, it's going to be by the charcuterie and I'll just be standing there and you can come and see me instead of me going to you.
Doree Shafrir (07:49):
That's a hot
Elise Hu (07:49):
Tip.That's where I'll be. But then Rob found a seat in kind of the back guest house area. And I went up to him at some point and he's just like all teary-eyed because apparently the In-Memorium segment was very moving because they had like a special tribute to Rob Reiner. Rachel McAdams did one for Diane Keaton, but the one I'm thinking of ... Oh, our gal, Catherine O'Hara too, is the
Doree Shafrir (08:18):
One that- Argal.
Elise Hu (08:20):
Yeah, that one really apparently broke him. And so anyway, there were just like a lot of people to memorialize at last week's ceremony. And so I miss that segment because I think I was eating cheese crisps. But they were probably good
Doree Shafrir (08:38):
Cheese crisps.
Elise Hu (08:39):
Yeah. So I've got that going on for me. I've got that going, which is nice. Yeah. So holding it down here, I'm going to update the Forever 35 newsletter soon because our project manager, Sammy, has done a bit of a data analysis, a roundup of all y'all's favorite things that we have mentioned on the show or recommended in our gift guides. And so that is in a forthcoming newsletter. Stay tuned. Amazing.
Doree Shafrir (09:12):
Well, should we introduce our guest?
Elise Hu (09:15):
Yes. Let's not delay.
Doree Shafrir (09:17):
Marcia Renee Lee is the award winning and bestselling author of Grief Is Love, and her new book is Waiting for Dawn, and it reflects on her experiences with chronic illness and grief, offering solace to folks living with all kinds of uncertainty. She describes herself as a longtime rabble rouser of social healing and equity. And she was previously a deputy director in the Obama White House, and she is now CEO of Beacon Advisors, a social impact consulting firm, and she lives with her husband and son in New York. And her book is out on April 7th. So pre-order it now, head to your local bookstore and tell them you want to read it. And yeah, it's really good. It's really thoughtful and a great book. All right. And before we get to Marisa, just a reminder that you can visit our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show.
(10:16):
We are also on Instagram at Forever35podcast. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com/Forever35. Shop our favorite products at shopmy.us/forever35. And you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (10:39):
We'll be right back.
Doree Shafrir (10:47):
Marisa Renee Lee, welcome back to Forever 35.
Marisa Renee Lee (10:52):
Thank you for having me. This is great.
Doree Shafrir (10:55):
Yeah, it's great to have you back. Well, as you know, because you have been on the show before, we always start by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So is there something you are doing right now that you would consider self-care?
Marisa Renee Lee (11:09):
Yes. This is self-care and a little bit long COVID recovery. I've gotten deep into breathwork. I have just gone way into the deep end on all things breathing exercises. It ended up healing my asthma that I got as a part of the long COVID. What? Yeah, within about six months. I'm in this program. It's an app called MeoHealth, and they are heavily focused on anyone who has any condition that impacts the nervous system. And they create all of these different breathing techniques and lengths of time that you breathe for as a part of recovery. And it's been a game changer. So I highly recommend, even if you only have five minutes to yourself, just doing some basic diaphragmatic breathing, you feel better and a little bit more human.
Elise Hu (12:01):
This is such a synchronicity that you brought this up. Yes. I have been suffering from asthma all week. Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. Some sort of viral respiratory infection, but I have allergy related asthma anyway, so I have kind of asthma as an underlying condition that can crop up every once in a while. But I went to the doctor and she was like, "Take a deep breath." And I thought I did. And she's like, "No, take a deep breath."
Marisa Renee Lee (12:26):
Yeah. Yeah. That's what happened to me. I went to the doctors once and she said, "The air is not circulating properly in your lungs. They are so tight." And I was like, "I don't even know what that
Elise Hu (12:37):
Means." I don't know what that means. It
Marisa Renee Lee (12:38):
Doesn't sound good.
Elise Hu (12:39):
She said I was so tight. Yeah. She's like, "You're so tight." I'm like, "What does that mean? I can't breathe. Can you help me?
Marisa Renee Lee (12:45):
" But yeah, it takes time, but I swear it works. I will send the information when we're done recording this episode because it has helped a ton.
Elise Hu (12:54):
Amazing. Well, my next question was going to be, how are you doing and how are you feeling these days? Because those who have read the book, which is about to come out, will know that you've really been through it with not only prolonged illness, but tragedy in your family.
Marisa Renee Lee (13:10):
Yeah, it's been an interesting couple of years, more challenging than I think I ever could have imagined. I got COVID for the first time in April of 2024. And I'll be honest, ladies, I genuinely thought I was one of those people that was just never going to get COVID. We all know somebody who's in that
Elise Hu (13:33):
Bucket.
Marisa Renee Lee (13:34):
I thought I was in that bucket. I went on book tour for my first book. I had a kid in school. Both he and my husband had had COVID multiple times and he's my baby. So of course I was taking care of him and I was fine throughout. Wow. And then it hit me and it hasn't fully left.
(13:52):
I am doing much better now, but in the beginning it was everything from not being able to breathe. At one point, in addition to the asthma and my lungs being just completely blocked and not functioning properly, my larynx was blocked over 70%. So I really was not breathing properly at all. I had horrible chest pain. Unlike anything I had ever experienced, I would be driving my kid to school and it would feel like that crazy heart pounding anxiety at the top of rollercoaster. And this is just the 10-minute ride to daycare. Being on my feet was awful because a part of my long COVID is dysautonomia. And so I just have really poor circulation. You'll see me drinking throughout this episode. It's electrolytes all day long. I couldn't stand long enough to take a shower some days. It was that extreme. Wow. And so the fact that now I'm in a place where I can have this conversation with you all and enjoy it and not have it feel like this awful labor-intensive thing is just, I mean, it's an enormous blessing.
Doree Shafrir (15:04):
What would you advise people who think that they may have long COVID? Because I feel like this is a very misunderstood illness.
Marisa Renee Lee (15:16):
It's also a very politicized illness. There are people who still think that COVID was some sort of fabricated thing, and so long COVID couldn't possibly be real. It couldn't possibly exist. Wow. And I wish that were the case, but it's real, unfortunately. And so
(15:33):
My number one piece of advice, if someone is listening and they think that they have long COVID, I want them to listen to their instincts because we, especially women, we are so good at ignoring and downplaying our instincts and listening to other people instead of listening to our bodies. And I don't want you to do that. I want you to believe yourself and do whatever you have to do to find doctors who believe you and support you because there are a lot of really good doctors out there. There's a lot of really good research that's continuing to emerge. And I don't want people to just stay stuck in a horrible suffering place because they don't believe themselves or
Doree Shafrir (16:18):
Because
Marisa Renee Lee (16:18):
Other people don't believe them.
Doree Shafrir (16:20):
Well, we are here to talk about your new book, which is called Waiting for Dawn: Living with Uncertainty. And kind of similar to Elise in the sense of this was an interesting moment for you to be talking about respiratory illnesses for her. It was an interesting moment for me to be talking about uncertainty because I do feel like uncertainty is something that I really struggle with. What was the origin of this book? Why did you want to write it? And what do you hope people take away from it?
Marisa Renee Lee (16:55):
Yeah. So this is not the book that I thought I was going to write a couple of years ago. I'm told that happens to writers all the time. I thought I was going to write a book about showing up when something challenging happens to someone you love. And it started out as my husband's mother, my mother-in-law. She was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer right before Grief is Love. My first book came out and my mom died from stage four breast cancer. So there was both the wanting to show up for him and be a source of support for my extended family. And then also the sort of trauma craziness of, "Oh my gosh, he's going through the worst thing that ever happened to me. This is a little bit too much." And as we were going through that,
(17:43):
My cousin, much younger cousin, she went missing and it turned out she had been murdered by an abusive partner. And so that was this whole other layer of unimaginable tragedy, trauma, violence, all these things that I had never experienced before. And then a couple months later, I get COVID and it turns into long COVID and suddenly it's like, okay, what is the book that I'm writing? Am I even going to be strong enough to write a book? What is happening to my life right now? And my editor said, "I want you to sit down and write about what you're feeling and what you're experiencing. What is it like to be sick all the time, every day, wake up in pain?" And so I started writing and within a couple of days had 10,000 words and quickly realized, oh, these are chapters. And what I'm writing about isn't what it's like to be sick.
(18:37):
It's what it's like to be stuck in some sort of painful place with no clear ending. And how do you live well in the middle of that? Even though I was sick and weak and in pain, I was still going to go to my fun friend's birthday party. I was still going to find a way to write this book. I was still going to find a way to be the best mom to my four-year-old son, Bennett. I was definitely still going to go to the Beyonce concert. There were just things that I refused to let go of. And so it became like, what does it look like to live a full and at times even joyful and meaningful life while dealing with an ongoing hardship? And I think it can be job loss, divorce, infertility, obviously serious illness. It can be so many different things.
(19:32):
It could also be living in a world where every time you turn around, there is some new fresh horror like, "Welcome to 2026 in America." And so I want people to take away some guidance for how to do it. And it's not just, here's my story and step-by-step how I think you should do it. It's more of a compass that is informed by both my story and research around uncertainty and dealing with the hardship and trauma and grief.
Elise Hu (20:04):
I want to get to the lessons and the takeaways for folks, but before that, you write about a concept called gray grief. Tell us what that is and how you learn to cope with it.
Marisa Renee Lee (20:19):
Yes. So in my first book, Grief is Love, I was like, "I need to redefine grief. I don't think we're thinking about it correctly." And so I redefined it as the repeated experience of learning to live in the midst of a significant loss. And with great grief and this period of uncertainty that I was living through, it was like, oh, what happens when the loss is the life that you knew? What does that look like? How do we define that? And I realized that great grief is the term for a seemingly unending period of uncertainty. I thought about not only myself, but friends who are acting as caregivers for elder relatives. I thought about my friend Brian and his wife, Sandra. When Brian was 38 or 39, they had just had their second child and he was diagnosed with ALS and they are figuring out how to live in the middle of that.
(21:17):
And so I think of uncertainty as the persistent feeling of stress or overwhelm related to the unknown. And you're not in charge. You don't get to decide when this thing is over. You don't get to decide when it ends. The only thing that you have agency over is how you move through it. So yeah, it's not necessarily fun, but I promise if you read the book, you will at least laugh.
Doree Shafrir (21:45):
For you, what does this look like on a day-to-day basis? Does this go back to the breathing exercises that you were talking about in the beginning of our chat? Or what does this look like?
Marisa Renee Lee (21:58):
No, that's a great question. So the breathing exercises are part of it because I find that that kind of meditative work helps me to figure out what do I need today to live well. I had a moment last week where I was like, I just feel like I haven't had a lot of joy recently between the grind of the book promotion. And oh my God, in the Northeast, our kids have been out of school so much this winter. It is making my head explode a little bit. And then everyone in our house was sick at Christmas with the flu. And then I have an infection on top of the long COVID. And I was just like, I need to do something fun that's just for me. And so I committed to sitting down and watching a couple of episodes of Bridgerton. And then another day, I got into, oh my gosh, it was so good.
(22:53):
And the month before that, it was obviously heated rivalry because I wasn't going to miss out on this big cultural moment. I'm not insane. And a couple weeks before that, I've gotten into watercolors and I have no actual skill as an artist to be clear, but it's just so peaceful to play with paints and water and color and just do fun little things. So it's like those kinds of small indulgences that I can still handle in a sick body, just taking a little bit of time out for them, it really does make a difference when you're dealing with something hard.
Doree Shafrir (23:32):
You just unlocked a memory for me, which is that during COVID, in the very beginning, the real early days of lockdown, I started doing paint by number kits.
Marisa Renee Lee (23:47):
Oh, nice.
Doree Shafrir (23:48):
And it was so relaxing. It was so satisfying to finish a paintby number. And when you said that- So fun. I think it sounds like what you're doing with watercolors is a little bit more creative, but I am not an artistic person. So just paint by numbers was sort of what I could handle on a creative artistic level, but it was so satisfying. And I love that idea of doing something like that, that is sort of meditative in and of itself. I'm like, "Oh, I should go back to that. " So thank you.
Marisa Renee Lee (24:28):
Seriously, as adults
Elise Hu (24:30):
In a period of uncertainty.
Marisa Renee Lee (24:34):
And as adults, we don't take out enough time for play. Almost everything that we do is tied to some specific outcome, whether it's caregiving for children or work milestones or whatever, but just taking a half an hour, an hour a week to do something that's just fun and cool. The other one that I started doing, and this was when the long COVID was worse and I was really having a hard time with screens, but was also having a hard time putting my phone down. I spent 30 bucks on this potholder making kit. It's like a weaving loom and the potholders work really well. It takes me, I don't know, 25, 30 minutes to make a potholder that I can then actually use in my kitchen or- Or
Elise Hu (25:20):
Give it as a gift. Yeah,
Marisa Renee Lee (25:22):
Exactly.
Elise Hu (25:22):
Exactly. I love a handmade gift.
Marisa Renee Lee (25:25):
So fun.
Doree Shafrir (25:26):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (25:37):
It strikes me that this relates to a list that you made in your phone that you write about in your book called The 100. So describe that for us and what you feel like you got out of it.
Marisa Renee Lee (25:51):
Yeah. Okay. First of all, I have to confess, I think I might still be in the 90s. I don't know- Oh, you're not there yet. 100 yet? Okay. I'm like full disclosure. I always tell on myself. So the 100 came out of a realization that I am not good at putting myself first. I was a caregiver as a child. My mom first got sick when I was 13.
(26:18):
I helped take care of her until she died when I was 25. And then a couple years later, I learn of my infertility and then spend a lot of time caring for my body, but solely with the goal of having a baby, not really caring for my body. And so I never really learned how to prioritize Marisa without lengthy explanations behind it. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to give myself a list because I'm also a controlling and list-loving person. I was like, I'm going to put in the notes section of my iPhone, I'm going to call it the 100, and I'm going to make myself get to 100 things that I do that are just for me. And it can be things that I say no to as well. It doesn't just have to be like, oh, I'm going to do the potholders or the painting.
(27:08):
It can be like, no, I really don't want to do whatever that thing is. I know that that's going to be pushing myself too hard and not in the way that ... I pushed my body hard when I went to the Cowboy Carter concert, but I need to regret it. It was amazing. So that is what it is. And when you are in these periods of uncertainty that force you to learn how to live differently, having some sort of accountability around it, I just found it very helpful to know that, oh, there's this thing on my phone and I have to get better. And I feel like part of why I haven't finished it is because it's become more of a natural habit to just listen to myself more.
Elise Hu (27:49):
Yeah. And then I like how you count things that you say no to as items on the list as well.
Marisa Renee Lee (27:55):
Hell yeah. Again, especially as women,
Doree Shafrir (27:58):
We
Marisa Renee Lee (27:58):
Are not good at that and there's nothing to apologize for. You're allowed to just say no. It's okay.
Doree Shafrir (28:07):
You're allowed to just say no. No is a complete sentence.
Marisa Renee Lee (28:11):
Exactly. Exactly. You can say no, thank you.
Doree Shafrir (28:15):
But
Marisa Renee Lee (28:16):
Yeah,
Doree Shafrir (28:16):
You're
Marisa Renee Lee (28:16):
Allowed.
Doree Shafrir (28:17):
Before we started recording, you mentioned that you're trying a new treatment for your long COVID, and I'd love to hear a little bit more about how that's going. Yeah, if you could just share.
Marisa Renee Lee (28:31):
Happy to share. Okay. So just to start, for the last year and a half or so, maybe a little bit longer, I have been on the sort of original long COVID treatment called low-dose naltrexone. That has been hugely helpful. And I just want people to know that as if they're thinking that they might have long COVID and somebody mentions it, it has absolutely helped me. But I felt like these last few months, I was just kind of hitting a wall. I had some infections in November, then I had the flu in December, then I get sick again in February. And it's hard being a sick person and also having a small child to brainstorm and coughs in your mouth. It's disgusting.
(29:18):
And so the last time I saw my doctor a couple of weeks ago, she mentioned that there is a new treatment that she is having tremendous success with with her patients. She is as optimistic about this treatment as she is about the naltrexone. It's called tirzepatide, was what she said to me. And I was like, I don't know what that is or how to spell it. And then she said it's Zepbound. It is one of the newer GLP-1s and it's administered in a modified much lower dose. And because of the way long COVID works and how, generally speaking, it causes a lot of inflammation in the body, The anti-inflammatory properties of the GLP-1s work to reduce that
Doree Shafrir (30:05):
Inflammation
Marisa Renee Lee (30:06):
And people are just feeling much better. And she was like, I get
Doree Shafrir (30:10):
That you're feeling
Marisa Renee Lee (30:11):
Stuck. I understand. Yeah. She's like, I agree with you. If you want to try it, I was like, if I want to try it, I was like, you know I want to try it. Come on, you know me by now, doc. Sign me up. What do I need to do? The only thing for me personally, I knew I couldn't give myself a shot. I'm not great with the needle stuff. Thankfully, I live with a man who is also a public health professor and teaches people how to draw blood and give shots. And so my husband once a week for, it's only been two weeks. I get my third dose today, actually. He gives me the shot while our four-year-old watches in horror and it's totally fine. In my case, the only noticeable side effect, if you can even call it that, is right after it's injected, it feels a little bit like a beasting and I just put some ice on it.
(31:05):
10 minutes later, it's fine and I just keep it moving. So I am incredibly grateful. So far, it's been an amazing experience and I felt a difference, honestly, within 48 hours, which I was like, "Is this possible? Have I tripped myself?" And she was like, "No, if it is going to work, generally speaking, you feel the effects pretty quickly."
Elise Hu (31:29):
Well, we had to find some sort of solution because I know you had been grappling with that for the last few years.
Marisa Renee Lee (31:38):
Yeah. Yeah.
Elise Hu (31:40):
I want to ask you, because you've been reflecting on this and we are in such a time of uncertainty.
Marisa Renee Lee (31:46):
Lord.
Elise Hu (31:47):
What does comfort mean to you?
Marisa Renee Lee (31:51):
That's a good question. The first thing that came up for me is this. I don't think comfort means completely ignoring all of these external stressors and sources of uncertainty in our world. A week and a half ago, we woke up and we're in a war. And then today before I hopped on, I saw something about a mass shooting in Detroit at a temple. It's just like it is a nonstop barrage. And so I think comfort is about acknowledging those things, giving yourself space to feel empathy and compassion for the people who are most directly impacted, and then also holding some empathy and compassion for yourself. So while I don't think we should completely ignore and shut out these various, the multitude of horrors that are taking place in the world, we can't be doomscrolling twenty four seven
Doree Shafrir (32:56):
Because
Marisa Renee Lee (32:56):
That doesn't actually solve or help anything or anyone. And so figuring out what your boundaries are and how to take care of yourself in these moments of collective grief and uncertainty, I think is really important. And so what that looks like for me, I actually recently, for my birthday in January, I bought myself this thing called the brick. Have you heard about
Elise Hu (33:19):
This? Yeah, for your phone?
Marisa Renee Lee (33:21):
Yes, yes. And so for folks who don't know, I mean, it's like a little square magnet that sits on my fridge and I have it set up so that numerous apps are just not allowed to be accessed on my phone when my phone is in brick mode. You hold your phone up, scan it, it goes into brick mode, and it becomes more of just a phone versus this endless stream of information. And that has been really helpful because it's like figure out what's happening in the world, how you feel about it, how you can maybe help. And then you kind of just have to put it down, especially when there are other people that you're caring for in your house, in your family, when you're someone like me who's having to care for yourself extra. And then once I've bricked, I can hold space for the breathing exercises, for taking a bath, for taking a nap, doing those comforting things.
(34:14):
Because something that I think is important for people to recognize is stress accumulates and the things that are happening in the world, they will add to whatever stress you are already feeling or experiencing
(34:27):
In your personal life. And so making sure you figure out what boundaries need to look like for you and what comfort looks like for you, I think it's really important.
Elise Hu (34:38):
When you take baths, do you have any go- to products that you love?
Marisa Renee Lee (34:42):
Yes. I get it from Amazon. So I actually shifted from Epsom salts to magnesium flakes because magnesium has a lot of good anti-inflammatory property. I mean, I'm obsessed with anti-inflammation because of a lot of COVID. And when you dump them into the tub, you feel more like you're floating. It's like when you're ... I don't know if you've ever been to the Dead Sea and it's so salinated. The magnesium has that effect much faster than bath salts do, I found. So I buy these ancient magnesium flakes off of Amazon, and that's been super helpful.
Elise Hu (35:24):
Okay.
Doree Shafrir (35:27):
I wanted to bring up one chapter of your book that, again, really resonated with me, and it's the one about asking for help. Yeah. I'd love to talk a little bit about that.
Marisa Renee Lee (35:42):
Let's do it. Let's do it.
Doree Shafrir (35:44):
How is asking for help connected with all of this stuff about uncertainty and why is it important?
Marisa Renee Lee (35:52):
We live in a culture that prizes individualism, individual effort. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. I did this hard thing so you can do it too. Every man, woman forms themselves, all that kind of nonsense. And it's just ridiculous. It's not real. Human beings evolved in community for a reason. This is how we are meant to be. This is how we are meant to live. It's what's best for us. It's what's best for our kids. It reduces stress, reduces isolation. There's just so many things about it. And so I hate that we think that when life is hard or uncertain in some way, that we're meant to just figure it out for ourselves. You can't do that well. You literally can't. Agree. And so whether the help is free or paid, you need help when these things happen. I think about someone I'm really close with went through a very, very messy divorce at the start of the pandemic.
(36:53):
And I think about if she didn't ask for help from family, from the therapist, from people who were connected to her kids, just how much harder it would've been. And I think about when my husband and I were navigating the uncertainty of all of the fertility stuff,
(37:16):
If we didn't have help through that, it would've been so much more miserable, especially the losses. It would've been devastating. And then in our case, we ended up at the end pursuing adoption. And even having support in that process was really helpful because it's this long drawn out thing. You get this checklist that's got 30 impossible things on it, like FBI background checks, blah, blah. And you're like, oh my God, this is crazy. And so to just have people even that you can just complain to in
Doree Shafrir (37:52):
The midst of
Marisa Renee Lee (37:53):
That is really
Doree Shafrir (37:54):
Helpful.
Marisa Renee Lee (37:56):
So yeah, I am very anti-going it alone because I just don't think it works. A recent example, I decided in the fall of 2024 that I was going to be open about the fact that I had long COVID. I knew people were weird about it, and I was like, "That's dumb.This is real and it sucks." And so I shared about it on Instagram and in my newsletter. And within about two hours, I had an email from this woman who was following me on Instagram because of my writing on grief. And that was helpful to her in her experience with long COVID.
Doree Shafrir (38:33):
She got COVID
Marisa Renee Lee (38:34):
In 2020 and was basically at the tail end of her healing and recovery process.
(38:40):
And she was like, "If I can be of help to you, this is the name of my doctor, blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "I'm going to be seeing this doctor within the next two weeks." And that woman became my doctor and we're now good friends. And so I don't want people to go it alone. And I think some of it is usually connected to shame and feeling like, oh, what's going on with me is weird or people are going to judge me about it or whatever. And it's just like, just ignore those people. They don't matter that much.
Elise Hu (39:14):
Absolutely. And I feel like all of my relationships and my friendships and whatnot are so deepened by reaching out and asking for help.
Marisa Renee Lee (39:25):
Exactly.
Elise Hu (39:25):
All right. So we promised we were going to get to this. What do you feel like you learned? What are the big takeaways after writing this book and this exercise in living with uncertainty?
Marisa Renee Lee (39:40):
So one of the big ones, and this is still a tough pill to swallow because I wish it wasn't the case, but there are some things that just have to be endured. Not everything has a quick or immediate fix to it, and that sucks, but that's just the truth. And so figuring out how to endure when you are faced with one of those types of problems, it's hard, but I think that's the only way through it. Another one, and this one's more of a work in progress because I don't think anybody will ever describe me as a patient person. I am definitely a more patient person than I was a couple of years ago. I also learned a lot, and I was surprised by how much learning I had to do in this space, surprised, and honestly a little bit embarrassed by how
(40:44):
Deeply committed I was to ableism and how much I didn't understand about disability and the experiences of people who are disabled. And I'm a little bit embarrassed by it still because my mom was disabled from the time I was 13. And so I thought I was good. I thought I had a really deep understanding, but until it's your body that doesn't work, it's a completely different experience. And I will say the last one, and this is the last chapter in the book, is probably just around hope. And that hope isn't this light, ery, nebulous thing that's similar to optimism. Hope is a very real thing that can drive us forward to lasting change if we remain committed to it. And so figuring out what hope looks like for you and how to define that when you're dealing with a period of uncertainty is very important.
Elise Hu (41:54):
Absolutely. I love that notion of hope as a verb, like as an action. Marisa, this is fantastic. Where can folks find you? You mentioned your Substack.
Marisa Renee Lee (42:06):
Yes. Substack is called Holding Both. It's all about grief, joy, and everything in between. Online, I am Marisa Renee Lee everywhere, and Waiting for Dawn is available everywhere books are sold.
Doree Shafrir (42:21):
Thank you so much. It was great to see you and get to chat with you again.
Marisa Renee Lee (42:25):
Thank you. This was so fun.
Doree Shafrir (42:29):
Well, it was great to get to talk to Marisa again. She was so lovely. Elise, last week you were going to do some healing because you were sick and you seem better.
Elise Hu (42:41):
I am on the mend. I'm thankfully on the men and I can tell because I'm sleeping better. Last week, I really felt like I was in a week long hangover. And it's true what they say about the longitudinal studies that they've done on truckers who've had cumulative sleep loss. It's basically the same as a hangover, like just having alcohol in your system. And so I was really having a hard time last week and very cranky. And now I feel like me again, a lot more like me again. And so that's wonderful. And this week, because I have some soreness, probably because I was just laying down so much and coughing, I would like to get a massage or another massage. I recently got one, but I got a gift certificate. I got two spa gift certificates from different friends for my birthday in February. And so I'm going to try and use those hopefully in the next week when I get back and I will report back unless you know.
Doree Shafrir (43:43):
Sounds great.
Elise Hu (43:44):
Yeah. What about you? What was your intention and what are you going to intend?
Doree Shafrir (43:49):
So my intention last week was to continue the office decluttering. And we did do a little office decluttering, but as I mentioned at the top of the show, the big decluttering this week was the hallway closet, which I am so happy about. And then this week, I'm playing in a tennis match on Saturday that is a playoff match for the team I'm on that is like a level above where I'm rated. There are just like not enough people available to play. So this other woman and I are playing in this playoff match. So like the best people of a level above.
Elise Hu (44:30):
Oh, okay.
Doree Shafrir (44:31):
So it feels like it might
Elise Hu (44:32):
Be tricky, right?
Doree Shafrir (44:33):
I think it's going to be tricky. And my intention is to just like go in and have fun and not worry about- Yeah, you got
Elise Hu (44:41):
To Alyssa Lewit. You just be like, "I live for struggle. I love struggle."
Doree Shafrir (44:45):
Exactly. So that is ... I get so caught up in like, "Oh, I got to win and I don't want to let my partner down and all these things." And I just want to go in with just like a chill attitude about it. So that is my intention for this week and I will report back on how it went.
Elise Hu (45:02):
Great. Awesome.
Doree Shafrir (45:04):
Okay. Thanks everyone. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partners, ACAST. Thanks everyone.
Elise Hu (45:15):
Talk to you next time.
Doree Shafrir (45:16):
Bye.