Episode 392: Probably Should Have Foam Rolled with Elaine Low
Elaine Low, staff writer at The Ankler and a recreational tennis friend, joins the show to chat about whether award shows like The Oscars still matter, the way technology is rapidly changing Hollywood, and the advice she hears again and again.
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Transcript
Doree Sharfif (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:16):
And I'm Elise Hu and we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree Sharfif (00:20):
And today we have a fun one.
Elise Hu (00:22):
We're not talking about serums today. We're not. We are talking about a different kind of self-care and that is the kind of self-care that comes with just enjoying culture, enjoying books, movies, in this case movies and television. Yep. Yep.
Doree Sharfif (00:38):
Yeah. We have Elaine Low on the podcast. She is the host of a podcast on The Ankler, which is a website about the entertainment industry, website newsletter about the entertainment industry. And she is just like a wealth of knowledge of all things entertainment. So we talked about the Oscars, we talked about the changes in the entertainment industry. We talked about so many things that she is also a tennis player and also a tennis captain here in Los Angeles. So Elaine and I see each other a lot from across the court. Because you're
Elise Hu (01:12):
Not on the same team.
Doree Sharfif (01:13):
We're not on the same team.posing
Elise Hu (01:14):
Teams.
Doree Sharfif (01:15):
We have a friendly rivalry. We're both captains of public court teams. So the public court teams have an understanding with each other. I see you.
Elise Hu (01:28):
She mentions this. She actually wrote a piece for Racquet Magazine, which is headed by former Forever35 guest Caitlin Thompson, who is the reason I was out in the desert last week. So everybody is kind of connected.
Doree Sharfif (01:43):
Oh, so
Elise Hu (01:44):
Circle. Yes. And tennis related.
Doree Sharfif (01:46):
Yeah, she actually interviewed. She interviewed me for that piece because it was about people who are captains of USTA rec tennis teams. Basically how crazy we all are, but she said it much nicer than that. She made us all look good.
Elise Hu (02:01):
I'm a great writer. Great writer.
Doree Sharfif (02:03):
She's a great writer. So it was really, really fun to get to talk to her. Elise, what else is happening with you?
Elise Hu (02:11):
Well, I don't remember what I shared from when I was out at the Sensei, this place called the Sensei Resort. I don't know if I told you. So it used to be a private residence, and it was mostly a private residence for a long time. And before they turned it into a resort, I learned that for 10 years, it was where Rafa Nadal stayed. So the only guest of this residence was Raphael Nadal while he came to Southern California to play in the Indian Wells Tournament. So that was really cool. It was kind of historic tennis grounds. Cool. And I got to play on Clay for the first time and experience that sliding and the bounce being slower or just the ball being slower, but then the bounce being really wacky when it hits the tape because it's not clay. So yeah, that was really interesting.
(03:06)
I feel like I learned a lot and met some really cool people, including that male model.
Doree Sharfif (03:12):
Hello.
Elise Hu (03:14):
Yeah. I also got, along with him, we together got these sound bath treatments. I think it's called- Cool. I don't know. Is it called like sound therapy? It's where they use a tuning fork on you. Oh, wow. Have you seen this? No. This is very like woo-woo Los Angeles because I Googled what this was called. And the first thing that Google auto filled for me was tuning fork treatments near me. So I was like, what is tuning fork treatment? What is this called?
Doree Sharfif (03:44):
Wow.
Elise Hu (03:44):
Okay. Tuning fork healing. It's actually sound healing. It's called sound healing.
Doree Sharfif (03:50):
Sure.
Elise Hu (03:51):
And it's a private session in which you can ... Somebody taps a tuning fork. They put the tuning fork on different parts of your body, like your temples or the soles of your feet or your chest, your arms, whatever, and then tap the other end of it. And it creates a vibration and a kind of ringing in the way that those singing bowls do, like the Himalayan singing bowls. Wow. And yeah, we found ourselves in that situation because YOLO is a good time.
Doree Sharfif (04:20):
Yeah.
Elise Hu (04:23):
I actually think that I had heard of it before. I wasn't completely worried about what would happen to me because I know some people in my life who have mentioned this or done something like it, but it felt very relaxing ultimately. I think if you're open to it and then the feelings is a vibration. Also, it was like 11:30 at night and we had all had some wine. So I don't know if it was relaxing because of the sound healing and the tuning fork or whether it was just because I was tired.
Doree Sharfif (04:53):
I mean- Don't know. Look, it could have been a perfect storm of all of those things. Right. I love that you did that. I mean, what an experience.
Elise Hu (05:07):
Yeah. Are you excited about what's coming up? So Elaine is on this show this week because we have the Oscars coming up. So are you going to try and catch up with any movies in the coming week or do you plan on watching? I know it's at a weird time, right? It is at a weird time early.
Doree Sharfif (05:25):
Actually, the day that this airs, I will be at Indian Wells.
Elise Hu (05:29):
Oh, great. Yeah. So you'll be at the tennis tournament.
Doree Sharfif (05:31):
Yeah. I'm going with a group of women from my tennis team. Yeah. Someone just posted in our team group chat like, "Does anyone go to Indian Wells?" And I was like, "I can go for the day." And then because the thought of trying to find a hotel at this point or whatever, it just seemed expensive and a lot. And then a few other people were like, "I would go for the day." And then someone else was like, "I'm actually selling some grounds passes." Another teammate had bought grounds passes that she ended up going a different day. So she had some grounds passes to sell. So I got a discounted grounds pass. And then one other woman has a big car, so we're going to just all drive in her car. It all just sort of worked out. And we'll go for the day, we'll go to the grounds.
(06:19)
They have these grounds passes, so you can basically just walk in and out of any of the courts-
Elise Hu (06:25):
That have seats. Yeah. That
Doree Sharfif (06:26):
Have seats. And it's not like the marquee matches.
Elise Hu (06:30):
You'll be able to get into those two though, I think. So since it's the early week or it's the beginning of it, you might be able to get into court one, but there's big ones. I mean, there's big players who play during the day. I prefer, because I love going to Indian Wells, I prefer to go to Indian Wells during the day because a lot of the top women play on court one during the day. So it's the marquee women, and then they hold the night session for Jokovich. So you'll get to see Coco if you
Doree Sharfif (07:00):
Want to. I'm excited. Which is pretty good. And I'm excited to go with tennis friends and also just see professional tennis. I mean, how cool. It's
Elise Hu (07:10):
The
Doree Sharfif (07:12):
Best.That's what's happening with me.
Elise Hu (07:14):
You're going to love it. They don't call it tennis paradise for nothing. This experience is so good because you get to be so close to the players at the practice courts too. And so there's like the big area where all of the big stadiums are, but then right along the backside are practice courts and a soccer field. Cool. So Carlos Alcaraz will be there just like kicking around a soccer ball and then you can see him practicing right next to cinner or Sabalenka practicing with or right next to Iga and everyone's just like there and it's hot. Definitely have a lot of sun protection and a giant wide rimmed hat and hopefully you're on this. I
Doree Sharfif (08:01):
Have a new hat. I was also looking at the weather and we're really lucky because Monday I think will be the coolest day next week. Oh,
Elise Hu (08:08):
Amazing. At the end of the week,
Doree Sharfif (08:10):
It's going to be in the 90s, which is like those poor tennis players. It's going to be hot. I guess it's a dry heat. I love when people say that. It's like, okay, it's still pretty hot. But yeah, so that-
Elise Hu (08:26):
Yeah, I'm excited for you. That's going to be so fun. Super fun.
Doree Sharfif (08:30):
I think it'll be really fun. Elise, do you have any Indian Whales insider tips?
Elise Hu (08:37):
Yes. Okay. The gift shop is like crazy. It gets crazier as the day goes on. So when you get there, and if you want to get one of those giant tennis balls that people go and get signed and bring it back for Henry, that's a really great souvenir. I would just try and get any souvenirs and things like that first thing.
Doree Sharfif (08:55):
That's a good tip.
Elise Hu (08:57):
Just like the US Open, they have their own signature double drink or Dougell Tequila or one of the drinks. I really like that cocktail, but it's expensive, so you can live without it. All the food venues are fine. They're pretty good. My main Indian Wells tip for folks who are going is to try and get your tickets on the side of the stadium that is shaded. And so my friend John, who we've gone with the last couple of years, he always knows these are the sections where it's shaded at midday and these are the sections where the shade will reach by 4:00 PM. But since you're going and just wandering on Grounds Pass, you can just play it by ear. And then you don't have to stay for that long too. You can watch some of it and then leave when you get sick of it.
(09:45)
Totally. They just let people in based on availability. You're going to have a great time. Thanks. I'm excited. Yeah, just stay hydrated. Stay hydrated is my main one.
Doree Sharfif (09:53):
Yeah. All right. I will stay hydrated. Thank you. All right. Well, let's get to our guest. Elaine is a staff writer at the Ankler and she covers the evolution of Hollywood's business model and work culture in the streaming age. And she writes the weekly series Business Newsletter, which is a great newsletter. She's worked at Business Insider and Variety, and she got her start as a reporter for Investors Business Daily. She has appeared on every big business
Elise Hu (10:27):
And
Doree Sharfif (10:27):
Entertainment news and radio show. And she also won an LA Press Club National Arts and Entertainment Journalism Award for her piece on Hollywood's reckoning over representation amid the Black Lives Matter movement, which is pretty cool. All right. And before we get to Elaine, just a reminder that we have our website, forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything you mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram at Forever35 podcast. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com/Forever35. We do our weekly casual chats there. We have our monthly pop culture recommendation episodes. We also have ad free episodes at the $10 level and above. And we have our free newsletter at the free tier. So check that out at patreon.com/Freber35. And just a reminder, you can call or text us at 781-591-0390 and email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com. And here's Elaine. Elaine Lowe. Welcome to Forever35. It's really great to have you on the show.
Elaine Low (11:30):
Thanks so much for having me.
Doree Sharfif (11:32):
So before we get into all kinds of Oscars and entertainment industry and tennis goodness, we always start off by asking our guests one question, which is, what is the self-care practice that you have?
Elaine Low (11:49):
Well, I know we're not talking about tennis yet, but tennis kind of is my self-care.
Doree Sharfif (11:55):
That
Elaine Low (11:55):
Is
Doree Sharfif (11:55):
Legit.
Elaine Low (11:56):
It is the only space outside of work and outside of family that I really carve out for myself.
Doree Sharfif (12:04):
And you have two kids, right?
Elaine Low (12:05):
Yeah. I have two kids in elementary school, so I am in the thick of it, as they say.
Elise Hu (12:10):
Yes. Yes. I feel that. If you're exercising and using your body, it's good to restore your body and stretch and foam roll and things like that. How is your routine post tennis just to prevent injuries? Are you good about stretching and other therapies, getting massages, et cetera?
Elaine Low (12:29):
In theory, I should be stretching. I should be foam rolling. I would love to get a massage. I don't do any of those things. It's probably going to come back to fight me these days. I'm curious, Dori, what your post-match routine is, but mine is like go sit in the car and chug the rest of my 64 ounce Yeti and then I go home and I really should do more outside of just taking a hot shower or like an Epsom salt bath. Yeah.
Doree Sharfif (12:56):
I know. I don't do ... I will say when I play singles, I feel like I need to do a little bit more active recovery, but when I play doubles, I'm pretty lazy about my post-match routine.
Elaine Low (13:11):
Same.
Doree Sharfif (13:11):
So yeah, probably not great that I don't have something more kind of formal for my middle-aged bones, but ...
Elaine Low (13:22):
What do you do after singles?
Doree Sharfif (13:24):
I mean, I really try to stretch after singles and-
Elaine Low (13:28):
That's good.
Doree Sharfif (13:29):
... even do a little yoga or just something because I'm usually like ... I mean, depending on the match, but you can get kind of sore after singles, especially like a two hour match. I played a
Elaine Low (13:42):
Double header. Yeah. I played a double header a couple Sundays ago and it started out with a three, five doubles match at 9:00 AM. And then that went a full two hours,
Doree Sharfif (13:54):
Went
Elaine Low (13:54):
Into a third set tie break and right after that I had to go across town to go to LATC for a 30 singles match and it was high noon and the sun was out and I was already tired. And I thought, "You know what? I'll just go really easy in the first part of this, the first match. It's doubles. It'll be okay." And then we went, we went long. We went the full two hours and then that singles match went the full two hours to the point where we actually had to do a sudden death point.
Elise Hu (14:22):
Wow.
Elaine Low (14:23):
So it's four hours of tennis back to back, do not recommend.
Doree Sharfif (14:28):
That's always what happens though. Whenever you say you'll play more than one match in a day, you go the full two hours. It's just like the law of tennis and then when you have nothing else going on, your match is over in like an hour. But if you're like, "Well, one of these matches will be short." No, it's going to go the full two hours. No, never. Yeah.
Elise Hu (14:47):
Which is to say you should stretch.
Doree Sharfif (14:49):
Yeah.
Elaine Low (14:50):
Yeah. Yeah. That was a day I probably should have foam rolled.
Elise Hu (14:53):
Yeah. Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree Sharfif (15:04):
Well, Elaine, we wanted to talk to you about tennis, but we also wanted to talk to you about Hollywood and the entertainment industry, especially with Oscars coming up. This will air on Monday, so a week, little less than a week before the Oscars. Tell us about how you're feeling about the Oscars this year. I mean, my kind of big question is like, do awards shows, even the Oscars, do they still matter?
Elaine Low (15:30):
That is a great question. I think about before I actually covered entertainment. Let me tell you, when I covered Wall Street, I maybe tuned into the Oscars once every couple of years, like for a spell. And I think that's probably more the norm, especially when you look at the ratings over the last decade, but I do think they still matter. They definitely matter to the industry within this bubble that I cover. And sometimes it can be hard to see past the bubble of what people who don't work in the industry are feeling. In this bubble, it still matters a great deal. It is the most prestigious award show.
Elise Hu (16:07):
And as you say, matter, I get that it matters for actors being able to book jobs or increase their fee and studios feeling like they're winning or losing. But how does it matter to me as somebody who just watches movies and enjoys pop culture?
Elaine Low (16:26):
Well, I think there's something ... The Oscars, I don't know about you guys, but I feel like growing up back when the Oscars did have higher ratings back when there were fewer channels, when there were no streaming services, it was more of a communal act. It was the same thing as watching the Super Bowl. You gathered around and it was a big deal and you talked about it the next day. And there's still that cultural through line, I think you see here to a lesser extent, but still wanting to be part of that cultural conversation the next day.
Elise Hu (16:56):
Yeah. Yeah. And I do think I've overall, just to partially answer my own question, is I've been introduced to films that I might have not heard of before, especially certain documentaries and shorts through their Oscar wins or their Oscar nods. So that's always helpful in a curatorial sense.
Elaine Low (17:17):
Totally.
Elise Hu (17:18):
What are you excited about? Which films are you excited about?
Elaine Low (17:21):
Ooh, I mean, I think One Battle After Another. Have you guys-
Elise Hu (17:24):
Yep. Loved it.
Elaine Low (17:25):
Okay.
Elise Hu (17:25):
Must be seen in a theater, I think.
Elaine Low (17:28):
Oh, I saw it on an airplane.
Elise Hu (17:29):
Did it not make you feel kind of like woozy?
Elaine Low (17:33):
It was a lot. And I had done a back to back. I was on a six hour flight back from Miami. I was covering, I was at a work conference and I was coming back and I was like, "Okay, I've got six hours. What am I going to do with myself?" So I watched past lives first because I was catching up on the previous year's films. Great, Celine Song, 824, beautiful film. And then I was like, "Well, what can I watch after this that's completely different?" I was like, "Let's watch one battle after another." And boy was that different. So I think just it was very jarring going from past lives to one battle after another. I can definitely see why you should watch that film in theaters. Did you both watch it in theaters?
Doree Sharfif (18:15):
I have not seen it.
Elise Hu (18:16):
Oh, girl, it's a good one. It's a good one. Okay. So that one you like. Do you think that one battle after another is likely to win best picture?
Elaine Low (18:29):
I think it's got a great chance. I mean, again, it's one of those movies that's in the cultural conversation. It's Paul Thomas Anderson, Leonard DiCaprio, Tiana Taylor. And I think it sort of reached that level of awareness too, not just within the voter base, which I think is sometimes sort of the tricky part too, right? And trying to translate all the industry chatter to a broader audience when it's a movie that most people haven't seen and you see people getting up on stage and you're like, "What's that
Elise Hu (18:59):
Movie?" I think to some extent that happened with, was it Anora last year that won?
Elaine Low (19:06):
Anora,
Elise Hu (19:07):
Yeah. Nora won last year. And I think a lot of the general public maybe was introduced to Anora through its wins. But the other big Box Office hit over the past year that I think is also nominated is Sinners, which I would also recommend seeing in a theater, but surprisingly, I don't think it's done as well in the runup. So I wanted to ask you about that. This is not just one big awards show. It's the culmination of a lot of awards shows. What has been kind of the chatter over the past few months in the run up, not about who's going to win or lose, but all the changes that are happening in entertainment, whether it's the possibility of further strikes, whether it's AI and how it's changing everything, whether it's the fact that we're all going to be working for Larry Ellison one day.
Elaine Low (20:00):
Well, Sinners is a Warner Brothers Pictures film and they have had a great year. They had a great 2025 and they're a film studio that went into 2025 with the rumor was sort of like, "Oh, are the heads of that studio, Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi, are they in trouble?" And then they wound up having a crusher of a year between sinners and the Minecraft movie and everything else.
Elise Hu (20:27):
And now Weathering Heights is theirs.
Elaine Low (20:29):
Yeah. And I think they're in an interesting position now because they had a great year and now they're being acquired by Paramount Skydance, which has been the whole drama that has consumed my whole life these last couple of months.
Elise Hu (20:48):
Uncle Larry.
Doree Sharfif (20:51):
What are some of the other kind of big Hollywood narratives that are happening right now in the industry? Obviously the Warner Brothers one is huge, but what else?
Elaine Low (21:05):
Well, I mean, outside of the Warner, that's the kind of the thing that's been ... It's been consuming so much of the conversation because Netflix was also part of that conversation. And Netflix kind of is the dominant streamer. It's the one to beat. So the idea at first that Netflix was going to acquire Warner Brothers was wild and sort of a sign of the times of like a big Silicon Valley tech giant potentially swallowing an historic studio. But the technology component of that is a big part of the conversation. AI is still very much so a contentious issue. And
(21:41)
You mentioned the strikes, we're coming up on three years of that writer strike beginning and the actor strike following soon after. And I remember covering those strikes and being outside of those picket lines, outside of Netflix, outside of Disney and Warner Brothers, and all the signs were about AI, they were about billionaires, but the AI part of it was so abstract back then. It was kind of just like this big, big, bad of like, "Oh, we don't want AI rewriting our scripts for us." But I don't really know how many people were actually using it in early 2023 to the point where I was like, "Should this really be front of mind?" And now flash forward to 2026. And yeah, I guess I was wrong on that count because people are actually deploying AI on movie sets. They are using AI to help do script coverage at the agencies to help read those scripts that are coming in.
(22:31)
They're using AI to an animation. They're using it in post-production and visual effects and it's here, it's here. And that came up way faster than I would've predicted. So I think AI is pretty much the other major thread of conversation in the industry right now.
Elise Hu (22:49):
Does it result in less programming, less stuff for us to watch as consumers, or does it result in just worse stuff? What do you think is the outcome if more and more of the production is farmed out to AI?
Elaine Low (23:05):
Well, the guilds have drawn their lines in the sand. So the way AI is being rolled out is something that still has to be negotiated between the writer's guild, the actor's guild and the studios. And one thing that they came out of those strikes with in 2023 was informed consent and compensation. If you're going to have an AI component, somebody has to get comped for using their likeness, using their work. But I don't think at this stage there's a threat of suddenly seeing a bunch of totally AI generated shows. I don't think the studios necessarily want that. I don't think definitely the creatives on the ground don't want that. I think you're just seeing it more in the social media space and because you're seeing it on TikTok or Instagram or whatever, it's mainly that thing of they're competing for attention, right? So much of viewing just done on YouTube, so many people are doomscrolling on Instagram instead of watching TV.
(24:02)
So I think it's more a question of, are people watching AI slop online instead of sitting down and watching a show or watching one battle after another on HBO Max?
Elise Hu (24:14):
Oh, it's now available on HBO Max. Okay.
Doree Sharfif (24:18):
Yeah. I guess that makes me also curious about how the rise of vertical video has affected all of these companies and their programming.
Elaine Low (24:30):
Oh my God. Can we talk about the names of these shows? I don't know. Do you guys watch these
Elise Hu (24:33):
Vertical videos? My former tennis coach is the highest paid real short star.
Elaine Low (24:39):
No. Wait, who is your former tennis coach? His
Elise Hu (24:40):
Name is Jesse Morales and he actually texted me- This is
Doree Sharfif (24:45):
Such a good dovetailing of Elaine's interests.
Elise Hu (24:49):
Perfect.
Elaine Low (24:50):
Perfect. Love it.
Elise Hu (24:51):
I know. He actually texted me a People Magazine feature that he's in because he's so excited about it. But anyway, say more about vertical video. The title, for example, is like, "My stepdad is a
Elaine Low (25:05):
Werewolf." I wouldn't be surprised if that were actually the title. Okay. What was it? It was like fake dating my archnemesis or Bad Billionaires. The demographic of werewolves and billionaires is like disproportionately
Elise Hu (25:25):
Higher in main characters. I just trust their viewership numbers because how come they have such high viewership numbers, but no one ...
Elaine Low (25:36):
No one you know is
Elise Hu (25:37):
Like- It's not no one that I know because I also know that no one I know really watches Tracker on CBS either. I didn't know a lot of the primetime CBS shows. And so it's not that it's no one that I know. It's just it doesn't seem like it's really in the cultural zeitgeist except for whoever these people are who are in the millions and hundreds of millions, I guess, watching these serialized vertical soaps that are two minutes long.
Elaine Low (26:02):
Does it feel like one of those things that's happening in the zeitgeist where you're reading about it more than actually experiencing it?
Elise Hu (26:09):
A hundred percent.
Elaine Low (26:10):
Yeah. I mean, it is big in Asia and so a lot of these trends are sort of trickling down. And so verticals really took off in China and the rest of Asia a couple years ago and they've kind of just landed here in the last year. I actually interviewed the CEO of RealShort and it was fascinating to hear how they structure these stories. For all that legacy Hollywood people complain about like, oh, like Netflix and the algorithm and like how much they rely on data is like, oh boy, you should see how much the vertical people rely on data. I was asking him, I was like, "Okay, so how
Doree Sharfif (26:47):
Do you
Elaine Low (26:47):
Structure these?" Okay, because these are like 75, 60 second chapters, right? But you've got to get people clicking to the next one, clicking to the next one, which means you have to structure these. So there's a cliffhanger at the end of every 60 seconds. And he said that we have writers training programs where we will train writers to write this way. And he's like, and then we look at the data and he's like, at first when we first started, we saw the data, we saw viewership drop off. So then we kept incorporating different kinds of stories, like more cliffhangers, crazier stuff, and then you saw engagement sort of stick. And he's like, "Oh yeah, if you can get somebody to watch like 70% of one of these like 75 chapter things," he goes, "That's pretty good."
Elise Hu (27:31):
It reminds me of like K-pop videos where they analyze the formation of everything is data. They analyze the formation of how the group of seven are presented, like how long each person gets in a music video and like who's more engaging and in what roles. It's completely like, it treats humans or the output of humans as technology.
Elaine Low (27:59):
Oh, whoa.
Elise Hu (28:00):
Yeah. And it sounds like real shorts is very similar, fascinating.
Elaine Low (28:06):
Yeah. I don't watch them very much. I mean, they're apparently a big business. And I do think that, I will say this is like very tangential and like as fellow media people, maybe you get this about micro transactions, but I'm just like, maybe one thing we could learn is like micro transactions. We talk about journalism dying all the time, but like what if you only had to pay for an article instead of paying for a full annual subscription?
Elise Hu (28:33):
I totally thought this. I totally thought this. I helped found the Texas Tribune, which is like a politico or pro publica, but for Texas, right? And it was political news and it's a nonprofit. It remains to this day, this nonprofit newsroom. And it was sort of like, how do we get people to donate? But we would ask for big donations from like oil and gas people. But I was sort of like, why don't we just say that you can pitch in a few bucks for an article or you could pay for an article. And there just wasn't ... Some of it was that the ideas of micro transactions were before the technology existed. So now I think it's super possible, but in like 2009-
Elaine Low (29:11):
You can do a one click.
Elise Hu (29:12):
It wasn't even easy to donate. Situation. Yeah. It wasn't even easy to donate, so things have changed.
Doree Sharfif (29:17):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back. Elaine, you have written a lot about kind of how career paths in Hollywood are changing, and I always love these stories of yours that you write. And so I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what is happening right now. Do Hollywood careers still exist for Gen Z? And I guess for that matter, do they still exist for other generations too?
Elaine Low (29:53):
I mean, are we ready to go down the millennial Gen X spiral? I mean, I mean, You guys read that New York Times story last year?
Elise Hu (30:02):
Yeah, I sent it to Dorian and Dori's like, "Yeah, I've already gotten this from nine other
Doree Sharfif (30:08):
Friends." I was like, "Why is everyone sending this to me?
Elise Hu (30:15):
" But build that out. So for folks who might not be familiar, what's happening?
Elaine Low (30:20):
Well, generationally, I think every generation is facing a tough time in a totally different way within Hollywood, within the entertainment industry, but I imagine that there are a lot of these issues are universal. For Hollywood, for a long time, this is an industry that sold a relatively stable fantasy of how our career worked. If you're an actor, you started out in commercials for anybody else, you start at the bottom, you start as an assistant, you start out in the mail room if you want to be an agent, and then you kind of climb your way up. There's a path. It's not easy, but there's a path. Now, entertainment is so much of it is a gig economy. It's like one-off jobs. Even if you're a writer, you could have been a stable TV writer for a long time, but because there aren't 22 to 23 episode shows on broadcasts anymore, instead you're getting these six to eight episode orders on streaming shows and then you might go two years without working.
(31:18)
So it's like, are you really full-time anymore if that's your cadence of
Elise Hu (31:22):
Work?
Elaine Low (31:22):
And I think that's the same thing outside of the entertainment industry as well. It's like you look at journalism, you look at so many of these industries, creative industries where it's like, this used to be a full-time stable job and now it's kind of like you're piecing together freelance work. So Gen Zs, who I just most recently wrote about, 20 somethings in the entertainment industry these days are facing this issue of the ladder's broken. There's no path up. And then also how do you build the next generation of creative leaders? In a time when AI is threatening to really encroach upon this space, how do you do that when everything seems to be pulled apart?
(32:08)
And so I talked to a bunch of 20 somethings for a story that we ran this week on The Angler and their stories are wild. It's like I talk to people who are young executives who finally managed to climb the ladder, but they got the promotion, but they still have to do their assistant duties. They still have to do their coordinator duties. They got like a tiny pay bump or they got no pay bump, but they got a title bump. And one head of development at an indie production company was telling me, she was like, "I live in a small apartment in Hollywood and my car has gotten broken into. I share it with a roommate. I pay $1,100 a month in rent with this roommate." I walk outside in the morning and there's human feces on the sidewalk and people are like, "You're an executive.
(32:56)
Why don't you move?" And she's like, "Because this is rent controlled and times are hard."
(33:02)
But I don't know that people in the past necessarily face the same thing because if you looked in the late '90s, the early 2000s in the industry, you had people like Jamie Tarsus or Jeff Zucker, these people who would rise in the ranks and they were like 32. They were getting to really impressive places really quickly. And so there was a ladder and they were climbing and so people were climbing behind them and it felt like there was movement. It felt like you could actually achieve your goals. And I talked to a lot of those Gen Xers who came up then, some of those who were rising were on this rocket ship and then things just plateaued for them. So you want to talk about just this broken ladder. It's like if you're 40 or 50 something and your career is kind of going this way, it's like, yeah, that's going to create downward pressure on everybody else.
(33:53)
And then you look at everybody who's reigning at the top of the agencies, at the top of these studios, like that average or median age just keeps going up and up and up. And if you hit the gray ceiling, there's a trickle down effect.
Elise Hu (34:06):
So what is your prognosis then? So if this is the state of things, is there an affirmative vision or are you sort of just like pragmatic and realistic about things being the way they are?
Elaine Low (34:20):
That's an interesting question. And I ask this of all the people I talk to, of all the generations. And honestly, the boomers that I've talked to, everybody else is kind of like, "Well, you got while the getting was good and now you get to retire and the rest of us, retirement is just a dream." But then the boomers will tell you, "Listen, it wasn't any easier in the '70s and we went through our own fair share of abuses or whatever and every 20 something coming up thinks that they have it tough." And
Elise Hu (34:52):
I think
Elaine Low (34:52):
That's true. Every 20 something does have it tough, but in a totally different way. But the advice I hear most to the point where I don't know if it seems trite is you have to be entrepreneurial, you have to go independent, you have to create your own stuff. And that's all very easy to say. I think it's harder to be entrepreneurial and then still create a sustainable career. And I think again, you'll find that in many industries outside of entertainment where it's like, sure, I can be entrepreneurial, I can create my own thing, I can have my own independent company, but monetizing that and creating a financial life for yourself out of that is tough. And I think when you talk about sort of the YouTuber, Gen Z, Gen Alpha version of that, I mean, what's the version for millennials and Gen Xers? It's making yourself a brand, right?
(35:43)
And it's essentially the same concept, but it's the commodification of the self. And you commodify yourself when you can't find a sustainable financial path through an institution. So then you have to commodify yourself, but we frame that as you're making yourself a brand and it like sounds great that way,
Elise Hu (36:02):
Right?
Elaine Low (36:02):
But what is that really when you think about it? And I mean, I'm not saying, that's not to downplay. I'm sure some people enjoy doing that and enjoy taking that entrepreneurial independent path, but I think when you present it as the only alternative option to having a broken system and a broken ladder, that's when it is an issue.
Elise Hu (36:21):
Yeah. It puts the solution on individuals for a systemic problem.
Elaine Low (36:26):
Yeah, totally. I mean, I could go down a whole rabbit hole of how self-care and wellness does the same thing, right?
Elise Hu (36:32):
Yep. It's like you solve it to fix it for yourself, but what about this matrix that we're in that requires us to fix anything at all in the first place? Yeah. Yeah. Well, good job bringing it back into wellness.
Doree Sharfif (36:47):
Well, I think that's a good segue to talking about tennis. Elaine, you and I are both women's tennis team captains here in Los Angeles and I think adult recreational tennis has changed my life for the better. And I'd love to hear you talk about how it's changed your life and what you love about the game and also being a captain, because being a captain is also like its own special mentality. And you wrote a great article for Racket actually about being a recreational tennis captain. Oh,
Elaine Low (37:21):
Thanks. It was only a little unhinged.
Doree Sharfif (37:24):
Well, we are unhinged. I'm there for that.
Elaine Low (37:27):
I'm there for it. No, I mean, rec tennis was something that came back into my life like so many people during the pandemic. It was the only socially distant sport that you could do
(37:40)
Across the net, safely, outside. And I just did it because I was bouncing off the walls in my own home and wanted to do something safely during the pandemic. And then it turned into like a whole other obsession that I could not have ever predicted because I'm a very sedentary person, or at least I was before tennis, before I decided to do double headers on a Sunday that involved four hours in the sun. If you had talked to me about that like five years ago, I would have been like, "You're crazy. I'm going to go lay on the sofa and watch TV." But there's something very addictive about tennis in a way that I'd never experienced before with any other kind of workout. Runners sort of talk about like runners high. I tried that. I joined run clubs. I didn't get it. I was just like, "I'm so happy for you guys, but I don't get it.
(38:26)
" And I wasn't the kind of person who would go to the gym, but tennis was it. And then it just opened this door to this really great community out here, as I'm sure Dori, you can attest to. It's a great group of women, a lot of people I would never have met otherwise who I ... It's like if a lot of my friends I meet through work and through social circles
Elise Hu (38:49):
And it's
Elaine Low (38:49):
Like, "Oh, look at this really interesting variety of people. " One of the guys on my mixed team is on my mixed doubles team. He was an accountant and he quit his job to become a pilot. And I'm just like, "Wow."
Doree Sharfif (39:00):
Very interesting career. You never would have met that person.
Elaine Low (39:02):
Right.
Elise Hu (39:03):
Yeah. Fantastic. Well, Elaine, stick around for the questionnaire because we're going to have a little extra Q&A for our Patreon, but tell folks how they can find you if they're not going to get to hear the extra.
Elaine Low (39:19):
I can be reached for all things Hollywood at elaine@theankler.com. And I encourage anybody interested in the business to listen to Ankler Agenda. Otherwise, for all things tennis, I'm at Elaine@ElaineLow.com.
Elise Hu (39:33):
Fantastic.
Doree Sharfif (39:34):
Thank you, Elaine. Well, that was fun to get to talk to Elaine. I'm excited for the Oscars, even though I haven't really seen many of the movies, I'm still excited for the Oscars.
Elise Hu (39:48):
I'm rooting for sinners. I'm rooting for sinners, but I feel like it's not going to go their way. We'll see what happens.
Doree Sharfif (39:55):
All right. We'll see. Elise, how did it go last week with no rushing?
Elise Hu (40:01):
Since I got to go on a random
(40:04)
Trip to a spa resort for three days and ate Nobu seven meals straight, I would say I lived out that intention. You sure did. I had a day of doing nothing and it felt amazing. And I wish I was there longer. I did come back and say, I mentioned on the casual chat, I was like, "Rob, you're going to have to sell one of your TV show ideas because we need to go there again. We need to go there again." And he's like, "I'm working on it. " And so no pressure, no pressure. No pressure. I just need to go back to that resort.
Doree Sharfif (40:38):
So funny.
Elise Hu (40:39):
That was really great. But this week I've come back sore because I played so much tennis and did so much yoga and I usually don't. And so I need to do some foam rolling therapy. So that's going to be my intention this week to try and just foam roll a little bit each day and just stretch. I do not like stretching. I just don't like it. Elaine talks about it at the beginning or talked about it at the beginning of her interview. I'm just like, "I don't like it. So I'm going to try and foam roll, do some foam rolling and stretching this week and hope that it improves my condition." What about you? How did the play date go? The
Doree Sharfif (41:16):
Play date went great. It was really fun. Henry had a blast. I had a lot of fun with the other moms there. Our house was clean. Our house is still clean. So I would say overall big success. And then this week I have my parents coming. My parents get into town tonight. What
Elise Hu (41:36):
Brings them into town? Just
Doree Sharfif (41:37):
A visit, just one of their biannual visits.
Elise Hu (41:42):
That's lovely.
Doree Sharfif (41:43):
So yeah, going to just try to have fun with them and hope that they have some nice quality time with Henry. And
Elise Hu (41:50):
Yeah,
Doree Sharfif (41:51):
That's the intention for this week. Break out the
Elise Hu (41:53):
Sofa bed.
Doree Sharfif (41:53):
Break out the sofa bed. Got to get that set up. All right. Thanks everyone for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Dori Jafrier and Elise Hugh, and produced and edited by Sam Hunio. Sammy Reed is our project manager and our network partner is ACAS. Thanks everyone so much. We'll talk to you soon. Talk
Elise Hu (42:10):
To you next.