Episode 376: Women, Texting, Talking with Kate Baer
Poet and author Kate Baer returns to the pod four years later (almost to the day!) to discuss her latest collection, How About Now?, the ways she keeps intimacy alive within her friendships, and what she enjoys about living in the country.
Plus, Doree gives us the play-by-play on her recreational tennis team’s dramatic trip to National Championships in Scottsdale!
Mentioned in this Episode
Sarah Kay
PoertyRX
Connect with Kate Baer
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode is AI generated.
Doree Safrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree Safrir (00:21):
Welcome to the show. Today, we have a guest who has been on before, but not for a few years,
Elise Hu (00:29):
And not while I have been host.
Doree Safrir (00:31):
Correct. One of my favorite writers and poets, Kate Baer. So good to get to talk to her again.
Elise Hu (00:40):
Yes. And her new collection, which is out tomorrow, you can't miss it called How about now? And we'll get into it and she'll do some readings from it, and we're all really excited about that. But first we promised that you would hear more about dorie's recreational tennis teams. Big trip to the national tournament in Scottsdale, Arizona. So Dore, take us back to Scottsdale.
Doree Safrir (01:05):
Oh my goodness. So this was the national championship. The way it works is that the USTA divides the country into 17 sections. So we were representing SoCal. There's also a NorCal section, but I would say most of the sections except for California, Florida and Texas are multi-state.
Elise Hu (01:27):
Okay. We're just so giant that
Doree Safrir (01:29):
We're just so giant that they've to split us into two sections. So we were there representing SoCal. We played four matches in the main flight, and everyone plays four matches randomly selected. So you could get a really tough draw or you could get an easy draw. We had kind of a middle ling draw. We had one, I would say easy match, two tough matches, and then one sort of middle-ish match.
Elise Hu (01:59):
How do you decide who plays those matches from your team?
Doree Safrir (02:03):
Well, Elise, I'm glad you asked.
(02:06)
I promised everyone on the team who was coming that if they came to Nationals, they would play at least one match. I didn't want anyone to come and not play. So that was sort of baseline. And that also gave me some flexibility if I was like, oh, this person will only play one match. But I also told people, you'll have at least one match off as a rest because at sectionals a few people played every match and by the end they were so exhausted. So I did some extensive research on each of the teams before we went. I had a whole spreadsheet, so I knew all the players. I knew their lineups. I knew whether, oh my gosh, sometimes they switched their lines because you play three doubles matches and two singles matches. So sometimes teams will do is they'll put their weaker team at the top, like line one, which is supposed to be your strongest team, and then they'll put line one at either line two or line three. You only have to win three of the lines to win the match. So sometimes people switch things around. So I looked at like, do they do that? Do they stack? It's called stacking. So I'd really analyzed all of the teams.
Elise Hu (03:28):
Wow,
Doree Safrir (03:29):
Impressive. Based on that, that was how I did my lineups. I also told everyone, I'm going to get the lineup for the first day out a couple days in advance, and I'm probably not going to do the lineup for the second day until we're done with the first day. And I know how we've done.
(03:48)
I was thinking, well, if we lose both of our matches on the first day, then we're out of contention and it doesn't really matter and I can just play people completely equally. But if we win both matches, then it's like, okay, well we might have a shot at going to the semifinals because the top four teams would advance to the semifinals. So SI was like, well, then I have to be more strategic. Yes, exactly. So we did end up winning the matches on the first day. We won the first match, three to two. We won three matches and lost two matches. The second match was against one of the toughest teams in the tournament. A team from Pennsylvania. We had won two of the lines. One of the lines was still playing. We had lost a line and I was playing singles.
Elise Hu (04:35):
Oh, wow. So it was up to you to win the third
Doree Safrir (04:38):
Me or the other doubles line,
Elise Hu (04:40):
Correct.
Doree Safrir (04:41):
Yes, yes. Yeah. So one of the singles lines had won, a doubles line had won, and then a doubles line had lost. And then another doubles line was still playing and I was still playing. And the first set had been close, but I had lost the first set. And then in the second set, I started feeling like I got a cramp in my stomach. We had eaten at this organic restaurant for lunch too organic, and I think it was two organic. I was like, oh, I should not have had the forbidden rice bowl. That was a mistake. It's probably forbidden for a reason. I mean, I should have forbidden myself from eating it in retrospect. And you're not supposed to use your phone during the match, but I was trying to text my teammate, can you bring me a banana? You're also not supposed to talk to your teammates outside the court. But I was like, I need something. So I took a couple of electrolyte pills and it turned out my text hadn't gone through harrowing. And then I'm was down one five in the second set, so very close to losing.
(05:50)
And then I started to feel a little bit better. I was like, okay, I can rally. At least let's not make this one five. Maybe just make this two, five. You know what I mean? A little less embarrassing. So I won the next game. So it was two, five, then I won another game. So it was three five. I was like, okay, this is looking up. Sounds like a comeback. Still kind of precarious, but it's looking up. So we're playing the next game, which again, she just needed to win one more game and she was going to win the match because she had won the first set. She was at
Elise Hu (06:25):
A match point. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Doree Safrir (06:26):
Correct. So we're playing this game and I can't remember who was serving, but I was down 30, 40, so she was on Matchpoint and I hit the ball, we're in a rally, I hit the ball to her and she hits it back and she immediately falls to the ground and screams and I hit the ball back. I get the point. Then I'm like, are you okay? And she was like, no, I think I broke my ankle. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, what? Oh my God. And I'm like, medic, medic, traitor. I'm like yelling. Oh no. An official comes on the court, the medic comes on the court, she's lying on the ground. And I'm like, oh my God. And she's like, the medic comes on. She's like, I think it's broken. So first I go over to my teammates watching. I'm like, can someone bring me a banana now that I can talk I need now that I can talk somehow? Exactly. And then the official came over and she was like, you can't talk to anyone. And I was like, okay. Sorry. The official was actually, I loved the official, she was this older Chinese woman named Mei, and she was
(07:41)
Awesome. I kept seeing her repeatedly throughout the term. She was just like, no nonsense. She was just like, this is what's happening. Yes, Dory appreciates those people. I really appreciate a rule follower. So she came over to me and she was like, look, here's the deal. After the medic diagnosis her, she has three minutes for a medical time out, but the whole thing can't take more than 15 minutes. And she had started a timer. The second she got on the court, she started her stopwatch. Thank you. Yes, she is all over it. Thank you May. And then she
Elise Hu (08:16):
Was like, then we're going to see if she can walk over here. I was sitting on the bench, she's like, we're going to see if she can walk over here and she has to decide if she can continue the match. I was like, okay. And she was like, but I'm pretty sure her ankle's broken. And I was like, okay.
Doree Safrir (08:32):
So the medic is dealing with her. I'm just sitting there kind of staring into space because can't really do anything. And then the woman who had fallen, they kind of lift her up and bring her over and she couldn't put any weight on it, no weight whatsoever. And then we saw it was starting to swell up. I was like, oh God. She was in a ton of pain. And the medic was like, and then they said to her, can you continue?
Elise Hu (09:07):
Wow.
Doree Safrir (09:08):
And she was crying at this point and she was like, I can't stand. So they got her a wheelchair and they wheeled her off the court. But when you retire from a match, a medical retirement, it doesn't matter what the score was, the other person wins. So I won the match, which meant my team won the match,
Elise Hu (09:35):
Which carries you to the next,
Doree Safrir (09:38):
Because then the other doubles line, I think they'd been in a tie break and they lost. It came down to that match. It did come down to that match. And the other team, understandably, I think was just like, what the fuck just happened? They were all shell shocked. Shocking. They weren't mad at their teammate, but they were just like how we were one point away. And then a part of me was kind of like I was down one five, she could have won the next game and just ended it. I did come back. You know
Elise Hu (10:15):
What I mean? And also had she ended it, she could have maybe, I mean this is sort of butterfly flaps, its Wings theory, but maybe her ankle wouldn't have gone too.
Doree Safrir (10:25):
No, I know. That's what I mean. If she had ended, been able to end the match at 1.5,
Elise Hu (10:31):
Right
Doree Safrir (10:32):
Then, yeah, she wouldn't have broken her ankle. She was also going back that night. She was taking a red eye back to Philly. She had to go to a wedding. The whole thing was just like that was why she was playing because she had to leave. So it was just like crazy. So then this poor team sort of followed us around for the rest of the weekend. They were watching our matches because we won the third match, five zero,
Elise Hu (11:03):
And
Doree Safrir (11:03):
Then our final match was against Texas. And Texas needed to sweep us for another team to advance a different team to advance, but if we just won two lines against Texas, we were going to advance most likely. So that team is watching the whole match.
Elise Hu (11:21):
Do you feel like they were rooting against you?
Doree Safrir (11:24):
Yes, because then on Sunday, on the semifinal day, they all showed up and one of them told one of my teammates, we did not imagine a world where we were not going to advance. So they're all there. When I was doing my research, I was like, wow, they're a really strong team. They're really strong.
Elise Hu (11:43):
So they didn't have flights home. They were all planning on being there all the way through
Doree Safrir (11:47):
Sunday night. They were all planning on being there all day. Sunday. They had one of their players, she flew in Saturday because they were expecting that they would all play on Sunday and they were cheering when the other team scored. I mean, it was so awkward. They were all sort of standing in a line and I felt like they were just glaring at us and
Elise Hu (12:05):
Oh geez.
Doree Safrir (12:05):
I don't know, maybe that was in my head, but it felt very uncomfortable and I was just like, sorry. Yeah. I mean
Elise Hu (12:15):
This happens. Yeah, this happens. That's sports, right? The reason Yannick Sinner won Wimbledon was because g Gregor Dimitroff, who was beating him in an earlier round, had to retire for a sprained back or something. Yes, that's right. But Demetri, if you carried that through, he would've beaten now the world number two and Wimbledon champion Yannick sinner during this year's Wimbledon. And then the entire path would've been different. But he sprained his back, this happens and had to retire. This happens. It's like Yannick sinner, of course. He was like, I don't want to win this way, but the game has to go on. What are you going to do?
Doree Safrir (12:53):
Exactly. And the other thing is too, they also could have won another doubles line in our match. They could have won another singles line in a different match. Actually, if they had won, they had won one or two more lines. They would've
Elise Hu (13:09):
Advanced,
Doree Safrir (13:11):
But they didn't. So it sort of looks like it all came down to my line,
Elise Hu (13:16):
But it
Doree Safrir (13:17):
Kind of didn't. You know what I mean?
Elise Hu (13:18):
Because it's team play. Exactly. It's not because it's team play Wimbledon where it's only on your back to continue. You have five other opportunities.
Doree Safrir (13:26):
Yes, at the exact same time. Exactly. Now it's true that she was one point away
Elise Hu (13:31):
Such drama,
Doree Safrir (13:33):
But that was so dramatic and so intense and so insane, and I didn't feel good about what happened. You know what I mean? Obviously she was in pain, pain that whoa. It's just like, what the hell? And then one of their players said to us on Sunday that maybe this was like God's plan. There was a reason why. And I was like, are you saying we're all going to die in a car accident going home on Sunday? What the hell? It's also just like in any sport, but especially in tennis, it's like it's not over until it's over, truly. That's
Elise Hu (14:08):
Right. That's right. Shout out to Luna's soccer team that came back from being down two to nothing and won three to two last weekend. Oh my gosh. Yes. Those girls showed incredible
Doree Safrir (14:20):
Drive. That's amazing. That's mental toughness. Yeah, that's mental toughness. That is really cool. So anyway, lots more to say. I'm working on an essay about it. Maybe that'll be out by the time this airs, but if not, you can read that on court date.substack.com and yeah, it was an amazing experience. The team really bonded and they say, oh, it's a once in a lifetime experience. I hope it's not once, but you never know. Getting to is really hard. So it could be a once in a lifetime experience, I dunno.
Elise Hu (14:54):
Hopefully not. Now you have nationals experience under your belts. Exactly. So as long as the team stays together, you can rise again.
Doree Safrir (15:01):
Well actually the team cannot stay together. The USTA has a rule that if you go to nationals, your team, you can't have more than three people from the old team at the same level. They don't want that to happen. They don't want,
Elise Hu (15:16):
Yeah, you don't want to have dominance in
Doree Safrir (15:18):
Recreational
Elise Hu (15:19):
Tennis. Yeah,
Doree Safrir (15:19):
Exactly. Yeah, got it. It's more fun for everybody to have a turn. Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, let's introduce our guest.
Elise Hu (15:30):
Okay.
Doree Safrir (15:31):
Kate Baer is an author and a poet based on the East coast. Her first book, what kind of Woman was a number One New York Times instant bestseller and she was on Forever35 to discuss her book. I hope this finds you well. And she's back to discuss her latest book. How about now? Which is out tomorrow. Her work has also been published in the New Yorker Literary Hub and the New York Times. And before we get to Kate, just a reminder, you can visit our website, Forever35Podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram at Forever35podcast or Patreon is at patreon.com/forever35. You can shop our favorite products at shop my us slash Forever35. Send it for our newsletter at Forever35 podcast.com/newsletter. And I just want to note also, our newsletter is moving over to Patreon,
Elise Hu (16:22):
So
Doree Safrir (16:23):
We will be publishing the newsletter on the free tier on Patreon, so you don't have to pay anything for it. It is free as it was before, but we're just trying to sort of centralize everything extra on Patreon. So you can sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/Forever35 and you can just sign up for the free tier and get our newsletter. Or if you want to pay, you can pay $5 a month and get our casual chats and our monthly pop culture recommendations. And then at $10 a month, you also get ad free episodes and your name read on the podcast each month as a thank you, which we'll be doing later in this episode. So check that out at patreon.com/forever three five and you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at Forever five podcast at gmail com and we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with Kate. We'll be right back. Kate, welcome back to Forever35. We're so glad to have you.
Kate Baer (17:32):
Thank you for having me. I love this podcast. I'm so honored to be here.
Doree Safrir (17:36):
Yeah, we last talked to you in November, 2021, so it's been four years. All right. A lot has happened. Boy, in the world in
Kate Baer (17:49):
Your life. Every time and I mean every time I've ever put out a book, so this is my fourth time. It's been unprecedented times. It's always in my a thing about me. It's like she's putting out this book during unprecedented times. I'm like, at a certain point we can stop saying that
Doree Safrir (18:04):
Right now. The times are just the times. Just how
Elise Hu (18:08):
Times.
Doree Safrir (18:08):
Yeah.
Elise Hu (18:09):
Yeah. They are just unprecedented times.
Doree Safrir (18:12):
We typically start off by asking guests about a self-care practice that they have, which we will get to, but I feel like let's just kind of catch everyone up on what you've been up to these last four years since the last time you were on this podcast.
Kate Baer (18:32):
So much has happened. I've moved, I've gotten older. I went through a midlife crisis. I wrote a few more books, two more books, and there's been a lot of unprecedented times, a lot of really wonderful times as well, so I'm trying to focus on that.
Elise Hu (18:50):
I'm curious how your midlife crisis presented itself to you. How did it manifest? How did you realize, okay, I'm in this vortex now?
Kate Baer (18:59):
Well, I've always been such a late bloomer, so it was really a shock to me that I would go through it so early. I was the very green age of 38, almost 39 when that happened, and it came out of nowhere, I started to have all these health problems, just a whole array of things started to happen to my body, which really made me face my own mortality in a way that I had never done before. At the same time, my kids are getting older and time is just moving faster in general, and all of a sudden I started to panic. My brain was just constantly telling me, one, I'm going to die, and two, I'm going to miss everything because time is moving so fast and so either way, I'm just missing my life. So I had to delay this book for a year in order to kind of address a few things. But yeah, so that's kind of where this book came from and also what's been happening with me.
Elise Hu (19:56):
Yeah, yeah. Well, this is a perfect seg then to ask our perennial question, which is what are you doing to take care of yourself?
Kate Baer (20:05):
I don't want to tell you. Do you know why? Because it's such an annoying, boring answer. I feel like people have been telling me my whole life that if I just went for a walk, it's like, you know what? You are feeling kind of sick and someone tells you to drink water. You're like, shut the fuck up. I'm not going to drink water. But I started to go on these daily walks and I was like, oh, this does help. This really helps me. And I wish I had an exciting poetic answer or I drank some sort of green juice, but really it's just like putting my ho was on it, going for a walk, and then all of a sudden, 75% of the things that I was worried about are actually fine. So that is my self-care is just leaving my family and going for a walk. How
Doree Safrir (20:49):
Long of a walk do you take?
Kate Baer (20:51):
It's like a 5K.
Doree Safrir (20:53):
Oh, wow, okay.
Kate Baer (20:54):
It takes me forever. I'm so slow. I've never ran a mile. So this is also, I'm going so slow. It's like an hour and 45 minutes later and my husband's like, where are you? I still walking, so walk my man. There's a lot of hills.
Doree Safrir (21:06):
Do you just walk out your door and just start walking around the neighborhood?
Kate Baer (21:10):
I just walk out my door. Well, I don't live in a neighborhood. I live in the country, so I'm walking past cows. I'm packing past sheep. I'm walking past, yeah, I carry mace because it's the country. God knows who's out here, but it's just very peaceful. I see a lot of dogs. I say hi to them. Sometimes I take my own dog, but honestly, for the most part, I want to be completely alone. It's like I don't even want the dumb dog with me. I just want to be completely alone by myself so I can feel my, it sounds crazy, but I need to feel my body and you feel myself away from everything so I can recalibrate and I just walk down the driveway.
Doree Safrir (21:50):
Great. Do you listen to anything as you walk or are you just in silence?
Kate Baer (21:55):
Yeah, I rock the fuck out. That's really a huge part of it is listening to music and listening to upbeat music and just sometimes silence. If I really need to process something or cry, I will listen to nothing. I also do a lot of Marco Polo Voxer voice note situation with friends or listen to their podcast. I do listen to podcasts, but the number one podcast I listen to or my own friends talking about their day, which is such a nice way to end a day, is listening to somebody else talk about their problems and just what they're doing. So I do a lot of that or music. Yeah.
Elise Hu (22:31):
Do you have any sort of routine to that? Because I have had some friends say we should send videos to each other every Wednesday to just update where we are in life on Wednesdays, not because it's our birthday or because we just came back from a trip or anything. When you all send voice notes to each other, is it just at any random time or have you created some sort of structure around it?
Kate Baer (22:55):
Well, first I want to say that Marco Polo, the app should really be sending any cash every week because I am an evangelist for their app. I pay for the service. It's the most life-changing app I've ever had. It's the number one app I open. If I look at my screen time, it's the number one app I spend the most time on because here's the thing, I don't know if this happens to you, but when I catch up with a friend after not seeing them for two weeks, three weeks, six months, two years, the conversation is so boring. And I'm like, yeah, my kids are in youth soccer and volleyball, and yes, it's hard and my husband, whatever, but when I'm sending my friend Heather in California, or my friend Mo, who lives two miles down the road, or my friend Liza, who lives in Philly, all this funny thing that just happened this morning and Oh, I just ran into this guy at the post office who was really creepy, or, oh my God, I just tripped over my dog and hit my head.
(23:47)
All this stuff is just happening throughout the day at all random times, and she's doing the same thing. It creates an intimacy that's like a marriage, and I need those kinds of relationships in my life. I'm not interested in catching up over coffee. I find it such a waste of time. I want to go for a walk with someone, even if it's just virtually and just talk about the day. And with an app like Marco Polo, there's no pressure to listen to it, right? Then I'm listening to Liza tell me on Monday what she did, and then maybe if I didn't get to it till Wednesday, Tuesday, I'm just catching up with my friends as they're moving about their day. If I have to run my kids, it's the best. It's what I listen to in the car. I just prefer that way of communication.
Elise Hu (24:32):
It actually reminds me of one of your poems. Do you have, how about now in front of you? So how about now, listeners is the title of Kate's latest poetry collection, which is out tomorrow. Very exciting. We get to have Kate on the day before her book birthday. The poem I'd love for you to read, so this is a surprise sample or a sneak peek, folks, because it's not out until tomorrow is women texting, talking.
Kate Baer (25:01):
Great. This is called Women Talking. The dog gets sick all over the carpet, makes us late to school. My daughter wailing in the backseat that this is my fault, even though I got this dog to help her manage all her problems in the parking lot, I send a message that sounds like I hate my life even though I don't. And this is just another morning in the casino hall. Carrie says, I know the feeling. Bethany says, you're almost there. Mo sends a photo of two toads making love in her small coy pond mil. We all write back, man, do I love frogs and go about our days.
Elise Hu (25:36):
I love that. And you get to name check some of your friends too.
Kate Baer (25:39):
I know. Thank you for noticing that. I hope I get some flowers for that because You're welcome.
Doree Safrir (25:46):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (25:57):
Tell me what your friend squad has meant to you. Obviously you've been married for a long time, but this kind of relationship with deep, intimate relationship with friends is so vital, obviously to our mental health, our wellness. This book is kind of a tribute in a lot of ways to this stage of life. You've talked about how you keep up your relationships, but what have they meant to you?
Kate Baer (26:23):
Oh my goodness. I could never stay married. I could never raise my children without friends. I think this is kind of a, maybe not for everyone, but kind of a universal thing for women throughout all of time. I don't think you could go to many corners of the world and not find groups of women gathered talking together. A few years ago, I drove through this little Amish village. I happened to drive through and I was driving by these front porches and I saw all these groups. They're all dressed in black, just kind of sitting in circles, kind of hunched down together talking. And I thought, oh, I do that. This is how women survive. This is how we've always survived, was by sitting around bitching to each other and being like, can you believe my husband? Or can you believe my kids? Or, this is so difficult, or just like, this is so funny, or this is so sexy or whatever. And I found that to be true since the second grade when I met my best friend Jess on the playground, and I said, I'm so lonely, basically, and so did she. And we kind of grew up together in that way. I can't imagine existing in the world without deep friendships, especially in a marriage. To put so much pressure on this one other person to fulfill all of your emotional needs is nuts. And so that has been just such a huge part of my life are my female friendships. Yeah,
Elise Hu (27:53):
I feel the same. I just wanted to hear a poet reflect on it.
Kate Baer (27:59):
A poet is just another word for a really annoying person who can't let go of anything, and it's constantly nostalgic, but thank you. I'm so glad.
Elise Hu (28:06):
I want to ask about Instagram in particular because it's been generative for you in a lot of ways too. It's led to a collection of poetry for you, and you have a massive following. I'm wondering how you're thinking about and handling the platform and how social media has all kind of been in ified over the past few years, and so commercial Instagram feels like a mall in the way that TikTok feels like a mall, and so previously, maybe when I say previously, I mean 10 years ago, obviously it wasn't. So how are you thinking about your engagement with these platforms now?
Kate Baer (28:43):
I've asked about social media with every book coming out. I was just asked about it in the podcast I recorded this morning as well, and every year, I don't think you can just talk about social media in a blanket way anymore because it changes so fast. Sure. I mean, social media is different than it was a year ago, two years ago, certainly different than it was five years ago. Putting out what kind of woman in 2020 is a completely different experience than putting out this book. Instagram is a lot of AI slop, and a lot of it's just now the algorithm prioritizes ten second videos over static posts, and so the engagement is so different. So I think anyone who's trying to sell anything on any platform has kind of realized that. Yeah, I've been using the analogy of pushing. I feel like I was pushing my book cart down this virtual street for a long time and organically just meeting a bunch of people and having them see me, and now I'm pushing my book cart down kind of an empty street over on reels on that street, and yeah, I don't know what the future is.
(29:52)
I think maybe I'll just go out on the street to New York and sell my book from an actual book cart. I think that might be more effective than what's happening now. It's a really tough place to be, especially if you're starting out to even have an audience because you have to kind of have a viral video moment to get engagement, and even that is so fleeting.
Elise Hu (30:15):
Yeah. Does that translate into somebody going to a bookstore and buying a book? I'm not sure.
Kate Baer (30:20):
I'm not sure. I have no idea. I don't know. Our literacy rates are dropping. Sorry. This is going to get really depressing. I feel very, I've had some real existential moments over the last year, not about my book. I know it's going to be much harder to sell this book than other books because of the online space, but just in general, just kind of feeling nervous about where we're headed when every platform, even platforms like Etsy or even websites like that that are being taken over by garbage, you can just resell Amazon slap on Etsy or make AI images. I see. It is just wild, and I don't have any answers here. It's such the wild west of the internet, and I think we're kind of reaching a point where either we're going to have to turn it off and go back into the real world or make some real changes or else it's going to get hairy. Don't you think?
Elise Hu (31:18):
Lots of unprecedented times.
Kate Baer (31:21):
It's kind of an unprecedented time. Yeah. Yeah.
Doree Safrir (31:24):
I was hoping you could talk just a little bit about what you feel like the theme of this book is, or is there sort of something you went into this collection wanting to talk about or get across that's different from your previous books? And I guess this is also sort of a question just about process in general. I mean, I don't think I've ever written a poem in my life, and so it's very mysterious to me and feels very opaque, so I was hoping you could talk just a little bit about your process.
Kate Baer (32:00):
Yeah, sure. I think because all my books are personal, so personal that this one is just different because I'm older and because I'm experiencing different things, so I think that's how I would set it apart from the others, my process is the same as all the other times, which is a lot of taking notes, like writing in my notes app or emailing myself sentences and images or ideas, and then using dedicated office time to construct the pieces. And I'm certainly not just sitting down and writing a poem every Thursday at 9:00 AM but there's definitely has to be some dedicated work time and then pulling from real life when I'm in my real life and just making sure to write things down to be able to put them together later.
Elise Hu (32:50):
I'm thinking about Sarah Kay, the poet who was contributing to this column for many years called Poetry Rx, where somebody would write in and then ask for a poem to kind of, or just say, Hey, this is my situation. I've just gone through a miscarriage or something like that. And then she would offer a poem as the prescription. What kind of work do you turn to, not just for inspiration, but as you're going through things and processing your experience, whether it's a midlife crisis or anything else.
Kate Baer (33:22):
I really just turned to other women both in my real life and in work, even in novels or fiction. I find a lot of solace there because I think even in stories, I don't know if you recently read Heart the Lover by Lily King or if that just came out Road to Tender Hearts also came out this year by Annie Hartnett.
Elise Hu (33:46):
Yes, we had Annie on.
Kate Baer (33:47):
Okay. Oh, she's great. I'm going to see her next week, Annie. Yeah. Yeah, she's like a baby doll. I find so much comfort even in fictional books like that, because there's so much truth in there about the human experience. I find so much comfort there because it's both an escape, of course, when you're lost in a book, but also, especially with the female voice, I find so much comfort and inspiration there. For sure.
Elise Hu (34:18):
Yeah. Dory Read Road to Tender Hearts in preparation for the interview. I remember there was a psychic cat or something in it. Is that right? Yeah,
Kate Baer (34:29):
Prompt
Doree Safrir (34:29):
Him, predict he knew when people were going to die.
Kate Baer (34:33):
I'm like a huge cat person, so this book was extra amazing for me. Yeah.
Doree Safrir (34:39):
I love Annie. I loved, oh my God, I'm blanking. Rabbit cake.
Kate Baer (34:46):
Rabbit cake. That one. That one's such a sad story, and yet it's also so funny and lovely, and
Doree Safrir (34:52):
I mean, same with Road to Tender Hearts. The sort of precipitating event is very sad, but she's just so wonderful. Annie, you're
Kate Baer (35:02):
Listening. We love you. We love you. I'll see you, and if you, I'll be fangirling next week. She's moderating my Boston event. She's incredible. Yeah.
Doree Safrir (35:11):
Oh, that's
Kate Baer (35:11):
So
Doree Safrir (35:11):
Fantastic.
Kate Baer (35:13):
Yeah.
Doree Safrir (35:14):
We talked a little bit about Instagram, and one of my favorite poems in the book was a self-help guru on Instagram tries to save my life. Just like, I don't know if you read Gia Totino's profile of Elizabeth Gilbert in the New Yorker, or it wasn't a profile, I guess it was more like a book review, and she had this line in there. I couldn't find it again because it was like pay walled, but it was kind of about how all of Elizabeth Gilbert's books, she's like trying to become a better person. She's always on her way to becoming a better person, and I just love this poem because, well, I don't know. Could you read it actually? Would you mind?
Kate Baer (35:58):
Yeah, sure. This is called a Self-Help guru on Instagram tries to save my life. I am not your beloved. Don't ask me to come down to the water. I will not be baptized in a BOGO Wellness workshop free to podcast subscribers. I won't slip into your calf, Dan, write a hundred pages, take the barrel of my body and back up to a sunset. Call off your dogs, your long newsletters instead. Let me walk my stone heart out to the turtle shell. We found turned in the backyard down to the river clogged with cans and plastic rings. Let me see. Life's ruin among the living. Let me see the grass grow between her knees.
Doree Safrir (36:40):
So evocative. I love that so much. And so il, the shade, right? Plus sassy
Kate Baer (36:49):
Sometimes that just pops in there, and this poem almost got cut and I fought for it, so thank you for defending her. I appreciate that.
Doree Safrir (36:57):
Oh, wow. I'm glad you didn't cut it. I mean, maybe it just speaks to me personally.
Kate Baer (37:06):
Yeah, good. That's what I hope that that's the point. That's the point. I hope that these columns are mirrors, and I'm sure everyone pictures someone different for this poem, but yeah, or just that general feeling that Instagram is always trying to sell you something that will fix your life when actually just being off Instagram will fix your life. So yeah, I do think that, I hope that that point comes across
Elise Hu (37:30):
Your more sort of country or exurban life comes through in this collection. How are you liking living out in a more, or in the country, as you described?
Kate Baer (37:40):
Yeah, I've been here for four years, 20, 21 for four years. It's pros and cons. Pros and cons. I can go out in my backyard and nobody sees me, and that's really fun. I can take my walks in a beautiful landscape. I'm not far from Philly or New York. It's a train right away. I have a little city, 15 minutes from me. There's a lot of great parts. The hard parts are like the school boards and some of the culture around me has been difficult
Elise Hu (38:15):
And
Kate Baer (38:15):
Really worn on me. I have some great community here. Some of my best friends live here. My family's not far away, but that's been difficult while also being helpful to see how different people live and why they might think the way they do. So yeah, it's kind of a mixed bag.
Elise Hu (38:34):
Yeah. Did you grow up in a more city environment?
Kate Baer (38:40):
I grew outside of Philadelphia, so I actually kind of grew up in a similar environment. We actually did live in the country. I could get to the Eagle Stadium in 20 minutes, so to give you some perspective, I wasn't that much in the country, but I was in the Philly suburbs enough that I also had a nice backyard, so I kind of lived in a similar vibe. We lived in town before when I had my little kids, and it was so fun to be able to walk everywhere. I don't have that luxury here, but yeah, pros and cons,
Elise Hu (39:07):
And now they have kind of the space to grow up though too. Lots more
Kate Baer (39:11):
Space. Yeah, we could get a dog. I don't know. It's been nice. Yeah.
Elise Hu (39:16):
Well, Dorian and I have both had you share a little bit of our favorite stuff in the collection, our favorite pieces from the collection, but what's yours
Kate Baer (39:27):
Or are you supposed to even have one? Gosh, I ask that question. Oh, sure. I usually have a little favorite. I don't know. I haven't been asked that yet. There's a line at the end of a piece called you used to text me for nudes, but now it's just for information for our
Elise Hu (39:44):
Taxes.
Kate Baer (39:47):
And yeah, that one is a favorite of mine just because of the last two lines. I really felt like the angels sing. That doesn't happen very often. It's happened maybe five times in my life where I write something and I write so much by ear, and so when all the chord notes come together, that feels really good. So I would say that's my favorite.
Elise Hu (40:10):
When you say you write by ear, do you mean you actually recite the poem out loud as you're writing
Kate Baer (40:15):
It? Yeah.
Elise Hu (40:16):
Okay.
Kate Baer (40:16):
Well, yeah, as I'm writing it, as I'm reading it back to myself, I write so much by ear that I really have to sacrifice a lot of sentences or words because it doesn't sound right. And so yeah, that's a tough part of it, but also just part of the process
Elise Hu (40:34):
And you learn selection and economy. I learned to write that way too because I came up in writing broadcast scripts for television and then later for radio, but it's the same thing. You have to say it right,
Kate Baer (40:46):
And
Elise Hu (40:46):
People aren't even going to see it in lots of cases. They're only hearing it. So there's something melodic and
Elise Hu (40:52):
Rhythmic
Elise Hu (40:52):
About it, which is nice
(40:54)
For poetry. Okay, so there's one more line that I was really struck by that I think is a good note to kind of project forward to. It is a passage from your poem watershed, and I'll just read the passage really quick somewhere. A voice says, why not remake the world? Why not embrace it with the softest forms of love? What I think she's trying to say is, what are we waiting for? So my question to you, especially in this year of our Lord 2025, what are we waiting for? What can we do to remake the world in a softer, kinder image?
Kate Baer (41:36):
I wrote that piece during our last election cycle when I think a lot of us were kind of waiting for somebody else to do something
(41:46)
And save us from ourselves. And I think that is a real problem in our country, in maybe our shared political party where we think, well, someone else will come save us when really that is maybe one of the most dangerous concepts we can have both politically and in our own lives. I find myself doing this. I'm unhappy about something, but I'm just waiting for something to change when I'm the only one that can change it, and it's kind of the same for everything. I have felt so much kind of a sickness about so many of the things that I've seen play out after the last election, and it really took some inward reflection, and I'm not saying I have all the answers here, but to kind of see, oh, I'm the one that can make the change. I'm the one that can go out into my community and get involved.
(42:46)
And even just the tiniest smallest ways. My friend Nora McInerney, she says this, she kind of preaches this where she's like, if you feel bad about something, taking one action step to help somebody else will immediately make you feel better about everything. And I found that so much to be true. If I can get into my kids' classroom and volunteer for an hour, my entire perspective on everything changes because I'm seeing those real teachers help these real kids who are having these real struggles instead of just looking at an Instagram infographic telling me about teachers and kids and school. And we live so much in a virtual place that is covered in fallacy and so much rot, and if we just get out into the real world with real people, I think that is the anecdote to this, which is something I'm constantly telling myself.
Elise Hu (43:50):
That point about waiting for somebody else to solve our problems, I feel like can really lead down authoritarian paths because you're looking for a parent, you have an entire political party that has radically changed itself in the image of essentially a cult leader in a lot of ways. But he is a strong man, and I think there is that sense of looking for somebody else
Kate Baer (44:14):
To
Elise Hu (44:14):
Solve
Kate Baer (44:14):
Things. People are tired, people are, especially people who are struggling financially or just struggling with so many things that we can't even wrap our heads around. They're looking for someone to save them, and it's such a false construct and it's really hard to see, and it's also hard to see in myself. I can do the same thing, not that I'm waiting for necessarily for a political figure to save me, but maybe just something else to happen in my life when it's me that has the control. And yeah, it's kind of the human experience, I guess, that I'm also struggling with. Yeah.
Doree Safrir (44:56):
Okay. It's been so great to get to talk to you again, and congratulations again on your new collection. I know you're going on tour for it, and I'm sure you're stopping in a lot of places where our listeners live. Where can they find all that info?
Kate Baer (45:13):
You can find me on most social medias at Kate j Bear. My last name is spelled BAER. I also have a website. Honestly, if you just type my name into Google, everything should come up. I'm on Instagram, I'm in all the places you can find people like me, and yeah, I'd love to see you on tour. Oh my gosh, it's my favorite part. I'll be in New York, I'll be in California into three different spots and in the middle of the country, Canada.
Elise Hu (45:38):
Wow. From Canada too. Okay. They're still letting us Americans in for now. They're
Kate Baer (45:42):
Letting me in for now. They're letting me in for now. So yeah, let's hope I make it there.
Elise Hu (45:47):
Kate Baer's new collection is called, how about Now? You Can Get It Starting Tomorrow. Kate, thanks again.
Kate Baer (45:54):
Thank you for having me.
Elise Hu (45:59):
Kate
Kate Baer (45:59):
Is so cool.
Elise Hu (46:03):
There were so many questions that I asked her that were just kind of, because I wanted her to explain something to me. I just need your insight on this because you are so articulate.
Elise Hu (46:13):
Totally, totally,
Elise Hu (46:14):
Totally. Like, oh, yes, I feel that. Thank you for putting it into words.
Doree Safrir (46:19):
Exactly. Exactly.
Elise Hu (46:21):
Alright, intentions. Intentions. What was yours last week?
Doree Safrir (46:26):
Well, mine was just to sort of enjoy nationals, just be happy. I was there live in the moment, and I was texting with our league coordinator when it was clear that we were going to advance to the semis, and she was like, this is amazing. Congratulations. But from the semifinals on, it's just icing on the cake, just making it to Sunday. Oh, I also forgot to mention that we qualified for semis by one set, so we were three in one, and if a bunch of teams have the same record, then they start looking really granularly. So then it goes to individual set losses, individual lines won, and then individual sets lost over the course of four matches with five lines, each sets lost, and we had lost one fewer set than the next team. Crazy. It's just crazy. So anyway,
Elise Hu (47:28):
Sports,
Doree Safrir (47:30):
I would say I fulfilled my intention from last week, Elise, you were talking about stretching last week, and I feel like that is something that I've been woefully deficient on. I feel that even if it's just like a 10 minute gentle yoga or something, I need to just do something like that. So I put it down, I'm going to make, yeah, I'm going to make that my intention this week. How did your stretching go?
Elise Hu (48:03):
It was helpful to have set the intention. I could have done more, but just setting the intention to stretch. Last week, I made myself, when I got up in the morning and I never stretch in the morning when I got up in the morning and got out of bed, I would do a few stretches like I would do plank to Pike, downward facing dog, just a few things, try to touch my toes, gentle stretches. Before I went to brush my teeth or before I went to go downstairs to feed the dog. I just did a little thing and I feel like love one week was better than the week before, so that helped.
Doree Safrir (48:36):
That's very cool.
Elise Hu (48:38):
This week my sleep hygiene has been terrible, which I talked about on last week's casual chat. And so this week I really got to get my sleep in order. It's going to be very difficult over the weekend because I'm going to the Las Vegas of the Midwest. Do you know where that is?
Doree Safrir (48:52):
Branson,
Elise Hu (48:52):
Missouri. That's a good contender. And I do love Branson. Apparently it's Deadwood, South Dakota. So I'm going,
Doree Safrir (49:02):
Denwood never, never would've guessed.
Elise Hu (49:05):
I'm staying at a rock cino, so I'm just going to be there for one night for a friend's 50th. One of my best friends, Justin, who I've talked about on the show, he'll fly out from Texas to take care of my kids for me sometimes. And so I have to show up for him for his birthday and he wanted to do it in the Las Vegas of the Midwest. So one night I will not fulfill my intention, but the rest I'm really going to get serious about an earlier bedtime.
Doree Safrir (49:25):
Amazing. Alright everybody, thank you so much. As I mentioned earlier in the episode, this is the episode where we thank all of our Patreon supporters, and again, these are our supporters at the $10 level or above. So if you would like to hear your name read as a thank you, you can support us at patreon.com/forever three five. So thank you to the following listeners, justice Bureau, Jasmine, DeJesus, Christie, Heather Whaley, Caitlin h Katie, Ashley Taylor, Theresa Anderson, Michelle Maya, Barbara C Amy, Amy, Schnitzer, Megan, Shelly Lee, Kim Beagler, Sarah Boozy, Alison Cohen, Susan Eth, Fran, Kelsey Wolf, Donna, Laura Eddy, jet, Apte, Valerie, Bruno, Julie, Daniel, E, Jackson, Catherine, Burke, Amy, Mako, Liz, rain. J. DK, Hannah, M, Julia, P, Maddie, O'Day, Marissa, Sarah Bee, Maria, Diana, Coco Bean, Laura Hadden, Josie, H, Nikki, Boer, Juliana, Chelsea Torres, Tiffany, G, Emily, McIntyre, Stephanie, Ana, Olivia Fay, Elizabeth, a Christine Bassis, Jessica Gale, Zulema Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Gold, auntie Catherine Ellingson, Kara Brugmann, Sarah H Sarah Egan, Jess Bin, Jennifer Olson, Jennifer Hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne, Macy, Elizabeth Holland, Karen Perelman, Katie, Jordan, Sarah, MKM, Josie, Elquis, Tara, Todd, Elizabeth, Cleary, and Monica, thank you all so much.
(51:00)
We are so grateful for you. You really keep the show going, so thank you so much. And just a reminder that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Talk to you soon. Thanks. Talk to you on Wednesday. Bye bye.