Episode 366: Have No Shame with E. Jean Carroll
Content Warning: This episode has mentions of sexual assault.
Former Elle columnist, journalist, and author, E. Jean Carroll joins Doree and Elise to discuss the surprise release of her new book NOT MY TYPE: One Woman vs. a President. Beyond why she was itching to write about “the absurdity” of her sexual assault case against Donald Trump, they also chat about E. Jean’s advice for giving advice, her secret to great posture at 81 years old, and what she plans to do with the $83 million Trump owes her.
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Transcript
The Transcript for this episode is AI generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree Shafrir (00:21):
Welcome back to the show.
Elise Hu (00:23):
Boy, do we have a good one for you in store today?
Doree Shafrir (00:28):
Sometimes we get pitched guests and I'm like, wow, this person wants to come on our little show. You know what? Our humble chat show. And then they're like, I've been listening to your show for years. And I'm like, you have?
Elise Hu (00:47):
I gasped when I heard her say, I've been listening to this show for years because yeah, she's such a legend. She's such a legend. We have ladies and gents on our show today, the one and only E. Jean Carroll.
Doree Shafrir (01:03):
I mean, the thing about E. Jean is she was iconic even before all of the Trump bullshit happened. She's in a different stratosphere now. She's in a different stratosphere,
Elise Hu (01:19):
And she's one of the few people who's taken on Donald Trump and won in court,
Doree Shafrir (01:22):
And her book is like, so it's a wild ride. I will say, I think Elise's laughing because it seems weird to say, but the book is very funny. You're like, should I be laughing at this? No, she meant, but she wants you to laugh it.
Elise Hu (01:43):
She meant for it to be. Yes. Yes.
Doree Shafrir (01:45):
So yeah, I recommend her book. She's just a fascinating human and I really, really enjoyed our conversation. So we will get to her in a little bit, but first
Elise Hu (02:00):
Let's catch up. We are back in the school year here in Southern California, and I'm delighted by it. I'm delighted to have my days back and just be back in a routine. The sports kids are already playing their sports again. Ava's trying out for volleyball next week, and then Luna has a soccer tournament Labor Day weekend, so we're right back in it. And I think you're right back in it too, it sounds like.
Doree Shafrir (02:28):
Yeah, some of Henry's fall stuff hasn't started yet. He's going to do soccer, but that doesn't start till after Labor Day weekend. He might do baseball. That also doesn't start till after Labor Day weekend. So I feel like he's gone back to school, but some of his false stuff has not started yet. So we have a little bit of a reprieve. But it sounds like you are just right back in it.
Elise Hu (02:58):
Yeah, yeah. But I'm excited. I feel like summer is such a fun time and I love being able to vacation and spend more time with the family. But September or late August into September, you get back into a sense of normalcy and routine, and I just like that feeling of I have a full workday. I know where the kids are all day. I'm not switching camps every week. And then there's different protocols for different camps when they're in camps in the summer, and then we start kind of barreling towards the Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas stuff in a couple months. So we have this kind of idyllic, more quiet quotidian period in September that I really want to,
(03:46)
To just savor and enjoy. We've been doing lots of walks with Oscar, who is on the mend. Thank you all for your sweet notes and kind wishes about this golden retriever who seems to be in and out of the ER all the time. Seems to be is buddy. He's in and out of the ER all the time, but he is on the mend and seeming he's back to normal, his normal golden retriever self. So that's all been good. And then, yeah, I have a few other projects that are in the works. I'm deep in fundraising mode for the documentary because I have chosen a creative path that is probably the least lucrative creative path I could take, which is making a documentary film and it requires so much development work. So shout out to all the development girlies out there who are having to fundraise because I am on fundraising calls like three or four times a day trying to just find pockets of cash for a creative pursuit that we feel very passionate about and we're really excited about. And I'm going to prepare something for socials so that all y'all can pitch in or offer any connections to foundations if you have 'em. But yeah, it's just been a whole new world for me to essentially spend a lot of time writing emails and setting up calls and having conversations, but then not really knowing where there's going to go. It takes a long time to steward relationships like that.
Doree Shafrir (05:17):
Yeah,
Elise Hu (05:18):
That's exhausting. Yeah. Yeah. So that's been a lot, but it does make me feel like I have a purpose. Each morning I'm sort of like, okay, today I'm going to call three people and I have a clear goal. The whole reason I ever trained for marathons was because I liked that there was kind of a schedule in order to training for a marathon. You can't just go run 26.2 miles. I mean, most people cannot.
Doree Shafrir (05:44):
And
Elise Hu (05:44):
So in order to get there, you actually have to commit to a kind of training where program where you run
(05:51)
And you run longer and longer distances. So I've done that throughout my adult life. I guess that's one of my hobbies, I guess. I mean, I don't talk about it that much, but I've done that and I liked just having that kind of order. Otherwise, I'm kind of a chaos Muppet. And with the documentary financing, it's the same way. I'm sort of like, okay, today I'm going to tick off three potential donors and we're going to raise $1,000 this week or whatever it is, and just work on it. And that's been kind of nice for me.
Doree Shafrir (06:19):
I need to do this with other things in my life, so this is a good reminder.
Elise Hu (06:23):
Yeah, just pick a thing that you care about and make that your thing. And it's like small, measurable goals. Right?
Doree Shafrir (06:30):
Exactly. Exactly. Well, Elise, should we introduce our guest?
Elise Hu (06:36):
I am so excited too, and you should do the honors. You have been a reader and follower of E Jean's for so long. It's so true. As have I. We really love her.
Doree Shafrir (06:45):
So e Jean Carroll is a journalist and author of five books, including a biography of Hunter s Thompson and the New York Times bestselling book, not my type one woman versus a president. She has written for Rolling Stone, the New York Times, the Atlantic outside Vanity Fair, New York, and Esquire and El. I don't know why that's not on this list. She was a long time EL columnist. She was named one of time's most influential people in the world in 2024, and she throws the ball for her dogs at her cabin in the mountains in upstate New York. And before we get to E. Jean, just a reminder that you can visit our website Forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram at Forever35podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com/forever three five. You can shop our favorite products at Shop my US slash Forever35. Sign up for our newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. You can also email us voice memos. Please do not text us voice memos. For some reason, Google Voice doesn't like that
Elise Hu (07:57):
It's eating them. It's just eating
Doree Shafrir (07:59):
Them. You can email those to us at Forever five podcast@gmail.com or just send us a regular old email at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. And now here is E. Jean. Welcome to Forever35. I'm glad to be here. I
E. Jean Carroll (08:19):
Couldn't wait.
Doree Shafrir (08:21):
We're so glad to have you. We like to start off by asking our guests if they have a self-care practice that they would like to share.
E. Jean Carroll (08:32):
Oh, I know. I'm well prepared. Many of my friends are big fans of your podcast. And so right now, I'm doing something that I do every day. Do you see I'm doing this?
Elise Hu (08:45):
Hey, you're kind of swaying back and forth. Are you in a swivel chair? What's happening? Oh, you're on a gigantic bouncy ab ball. One of those exercise all
E. Jean Carroll (08:56):
Day long. That's it. All day long. It's super fun.
Elise Hu (09:01):
You
E. Jean Carroll (09:01):
Never get bored. Your energy is constantly flow up and the dogs love it. It is a true secret to keeping energized and just very gently do be moving throughout the day.
Elise Hu (09:20):
Do you feel like it's good for your posture too and your core stability and all those things that it's supposed to do? Or do you just bouncing and kind of rolling around?
E. Jean Carroll (09:30):
Well, Elise, you mentioned posture. That's the second tip I have. I'm wearing this to hold my shoulders back because I'm old. I'm 80, 81.
Elise Hu (09:40):
Is it like suspenders? Yeah. What's happening here? What are wearing Now
E. Jean Carroll (09:43):
I'm have to turn around. I'm just hung a two pound weight behind my back.
Elise Hu (09:48):
Oh, it's a weighted vest. Yeah.
E. Jean Carroll (09:51):
Can you see it?
Elise Hu (09:52):
Yes. Yeah, these are very in right now. Isn't that cool? Yeah, these are very in right now.
Doree Shafrir (09:56):
Is that a weighted vest or is it
E. Jean Carroll (09:58):
Yeah, it's just straps. They're a lot
Doree Shafrir (10:01):
Plasticized. It's just straps, right? It's like a little pack in back.
E. Jean Carroll (10:04):
Yeah. It's just like, and it looks like a little backpack, but it's this chic little thing. And these I've been wearing for 20 years, thank God. Really? Because Oh, wow. No, wait until you hit my age. You'll be amazed how everything wants to come down into the center of the body. It all goes like this. And so the back sort of humps over, but if you got this thing on, it keeps you, and also it feels great.
Elise Hu (10:32):
It pulls your shoulders back. Would you say, because I feel like you use that now. Yeah. Do we have to wait until we're older, or should we just be wearing these? Do it
E. Jean Carroll (10:41):
Now, girl. Elise. Yeah. Get that thing on now. Have to get off Amazon. Get this thing. It's like 19 bucks. I've been talking about this thing for like 25 years.
Elise Hu (10:53):
Amazing. Amazing.
E. Jean Carroll (10:54):
Yeah. We'll see, I have no idea what I would look like if I hadn't been wore, but I just picture the wicked witch whatever. Wicked witch. She's always got a hump right there.
Elise Hu (11:07):
No, you're right. You're right. The cartoon villains always get scoliosis.
Doree Shafrir (11:12):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (11:23):
Well, E. Jean and Carol, we're so delighted to have you today. And your new book kind of came out as a surprise. There wasn't a big runup to it. It's called, not my type. Actually borrowed from a line that President Trump used after you brought charges against him for sexual assault in a department store many years ago and later for defamation when he called your claim a hoax. So set this all up for us.
E. Jean Carroll (11:52):
Well said. Like somebody from NPRI swear to God. That was a beautiful introduction. Thank you very much, Elise. Yeah. So yes, the book was secret. I couldn't even get a copy. It was written in secret. It was written by a woman living in a Hubble, as you can see, who was filled with high glee the entire time I was writing it. I had official court transcripts,
(12:22)
I had deposition transcripts, I had piles of notes, and I had the funniest situation that anybody's ever been in, sitting in a courtroom with Donald Trump right behind me. So high comedy, and we sprang it on the world with no runup, which was odd. And boom, people liked it because normally you hear the words sexual assault, and you turn and you run because you feel very badly for the person. And there's nothing you can do about it. Nothing. So you don't want to even deal with it. But this, so we made it a surprise, and it turned out to be an amazing, well, I keep saying the word funny, and I keep saying comedy and it sounds weird, but that's what it was.
Doree Shafrir (13:18):
There are many moments in the book where I just found myself laughing, and it is this, it's very serious, but you do sort of also highlight the absurdity of it all.
E. Jean Carroll (13:34):
That's it. That's the word I was looking for. I couldn't find the word because I was being pulled by my shoulder straps. But that's the word absurdity, the high absurdity. And the way I dealt with it was to write about it. So that exactly. The whole thing was tragic, but surrounding it was the high humor,
Doree Shafrir (13:53):
Tragic comic.
E. Jean Carroll (13:55):
Yeah. There you go.
Doree Shafrir (13:57):
I was complimenting your hair before we started recording because you have a very sleek bob. And in the book, this hairstyle is something that comes up, and it kind of spoke to a lot of these issues of how you should be representing yourself in court physically. And it felt all tied up with questions of beauty and femininity, but also aging and the male gaze. And it all sort of seemed to come to a head, no pun intended in this Bob. So I would love to have you kind of retell that story for our listeners. And also talk about why even today, long after the trial, you're still wearing the bob.
E. Jean Carroll (14:52):
I'm still wearing, well, this was a huge court cases. We had sued the president of the United States in big court cases like this. Lawyers like to do something called mock juries. We would call them mock trial. And that's way lawyers can present their cases to 27. What would be generally the typical jury member present their argument and see what arguments are working and see what arguments are. So we put on an entire case in a big ballroom in New York, 27, typical New Yorkers who would be on a jury. They spent all day, it was a real trial. We had Trump's attorney played by one of our attorneys, and we presented our case. We had witnesses, we used tapes from the deposition, and we presented our case. Everybody agreed, all 27 jurors agreed that yes, it's quite possible that two people could end up in a Bergdorf dressing room in 1996. Yes, it's quite possible that something sexual could happen in that dressing room in 1996. And yes, it's quite possible that one of 'em was E. Jean. Carolyn. One of them was Donald Trump. And the thing they did not agree on was they thought that I was begging him for
(16:17)
Why did they think that? Because they are seeing an old woman testify sated, old, old chrome. They could not picture it. My hair at the time was long and they couldn't picture it. They didn't have the imaginations. So I had been saying to Robbie, Robbie, we're going to have to young me down. I got to look fuckable. And we're
Elise Hu (16:43):
Talking about Robbie Kaplan, your lawyer?
E. Jean Carroll (16:45):
Yes.
Elise Hu (16:46):
Okay.
E. Jean Carroll (16:46):
The greatest mind of her generation. And she kept saying, don't worry, E. Jean. We'll show him pictures. Well, pictures didn't work. So I found the hairdresser that did my hair every day in 1996 for a talk show I had, her name is Lisa Corelli, all Lives and Salute. She did the exact haircut, the exact hair color, the exact makeup she did every day during 1996. And here's the cover, the clothes I wore to this jacket, that's from Burglar 1993. I wore clothes from that time. So that's what we did. And I didn't look like I looked in 1996, but I looked enough like somebody who could have looked like I looked in 1990. But the jury understood it, and I like the wigs so much. This is Trixie. I have Trudy over here. There's Trudy.
Elise Hu (17:47):
Oh, you name your wigs.
E. Jean Carroll (17:48):
Oh yeah. I got Trixie, Trudy Tula and to, and all this is $8 and 88 cents. No way on tmo. Oh my gosh. 88 cents. They got to cut it,
Elise Hu (18:01):
But
E. Jean Carroll (18:02):
Yeah, no, they're great.
Elise Hu (18:03):
Wow. Another scene that really stood out to us was when you had to get various psychiatric evaluations, two from your side, but then one from Trump's side, and it was his third choice psychiatrist because the other two dropped out. Tell us about that one and what it was like for you.
E. Jean Carroll (18:25):
Not even the third choice. They couldn't get anybody. There are many sexual assault trauma psychiatrists and psychologists in America, many hundreds, I would say maybe thousands of real true experts. Of course, we hired the best one of those experts, the very woman who created the sexual assault protocol for the United States Air Force. She created the sexual assault protocol for the United States veterans. She had her Harvard rape study. She had a Duke rape. She was great. Dr. Leslie Liebowitz. Trump could not find anybody who could argue against Dr. Leslie Leibovitz's conclusions. She was so well, she was so smart, knew what she was talking about. So finally, they dug up Dr. Edgar Pase and Dr. He was an expert in Na is Ace. Exactly. And he was an expert in alcoholism, which had nothing to do with our case, but he gave it the old college shot. And he spent most of our time asking me a single question. He had read Dr. Leslie Leitz report, and she had reported that she had spent three days with me. We were actually locked in a room three days and then six more hours on Zoom.
(19:55)
He was so curious and eaten up with, I don't know, jealousy, envy, curiosity of how she could have spent three days asking me questions. So that's what he wanted to know. We very rarely talked to, we must have talked about the event. It was so brief. I can't recall. He was saying, what did you talk about with Dr. Leslie Liebowitz? What did Dr. Leslie Liebowitz find to ask you about? Did she ask you question? I don't know. You were, was it three days? Dr. Leslie? I'd say, and six hours of Zoom. Dr. Nate. His conclusion was that he didn't know what happened, and he couldn't say what happened. But if it did happen, I was lying. That was his conclusion. That was the conclusion. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And I had never been to a therapist before, so to be saddled with two of them, oh God.
Elise Hu (21:00):
But thanks to bringing that case, and you so bravely going through all of the drama of the trial, Trump was actually convicted of those crimes of defamation and sexual assault, and the jury found he owes you something like $83 million in damages. Have you seen any of it yet? And does it matter to you?
E. Jean Carroll (21:22):
Oh, yeah. No, because I want to give it away. I want to give it away to everything he hates. The outcome was we were the first people to make him pay for his lies.
(21:39)
He was being forced to pay for lying. And Robbie Kaplan in that trial was in the middle of giving her final argument to the jury. And the jury, by the way, was mesmerized by trial. He misbehaved the entire time he was in court, just belittled his attorneys snorted. You could hear almost everything under his breath, continually saying, I've never met the woman. I dunno who the woman is. And eye forking the judge. He hated the judge. He'd say nasty man, all under his bed. The jury could hear it all. I mean, the jury was, well, they could hear it all. I could hear it all,
Elise Hu (22:27):
And
E. Jean Carroll (22:28):
My attorneys could hear it all.
E. Jean Carroll (22:29):
And
E. Jean Carroll (22:31):
So the jury was mesmerized by him. The most powerful man on earth is sitting there in the courtroom acting up. And so Robbie's in her final argument, and what she's doing is she's listing his wealth to the jury. She has taken, remember the New York Broad trial? Leticia James? Yeah. Yeah.
(22:54)
He did a deposition for that case, and he listed all his wealth, Mar-a-Lago, 1.5, his golf club, four point, his brand, 10 billion. Robbie is listing this for the jury, and she drove him so insane that he stood up with steam coming off the top of his head and smoke coming off his back. His face was vermilion, and he walked out of court. Wow. Now, if you're a juror sitting in the jury, you see who turns and leaves like people who are guilty. Right. Not people who are not innocent. People would listen to it and say, oh my God, listen to this. But he actually ran. So he lost the case right there
Elise Hu (23:51):
By walking
E. Jean Carroll (23:52):
Out. Didn't have enough control to even sit and listen to Robbie. And that's the man who's running our lives right now. No control whatsoever. He was also campaigning during this. And so during breaks on the weekends and stuff, he'd go out and say everything the judge had told him. So he was addressing the jury constantly. So they got a good look, and then they voted and it was $83 million. That's what they thought of how he behaved. So that was interesting.
Elise Hu (24:23):
And you haven't seen any of it yet?
E. Jean Carroll (24:25):
Well, he just lost his final appeal in the second circuit of United States Court of Appeals. Now he has 70 days left to appeal to the Supreme Court that is on the first trial, the one for sexual abuse and defamation. I'm surprised they haven't gone to the Supreme Court yet. They will lose. And then if the banking system is still in place, then I'll receive the a hundred million, because by that time it's a hundred million because that, and then we can give it away to women's rights.
Doree Shafrir (25:02):
Well, I hope you keep some of it for yourself.
E. Jean Carroll (25:05):
I'm not really into money. I don't really care.
Doree Shafrir (25:08):
Don't really Don't Just want to make sure you're set up. I got enough that you don't have to worry about
E. Jean Carroll (25:13):
It. I got enough to buy this, and I'm happy.
Doree Shafrir (25:16):
Great. Okay. Oh, wonderful. Vaseline.
E. Jean Carroll (25:21):
Best face cream in the world. Right? I don't need the $80 face creams. Just the old Vaseline.
Elise Hu (25:27):
Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree Shafrir (25:37):
I knew you for decades as the advice columnist for L Magazine. I had been reading you since I was probably a teenager, and so that was kind of your identity for so long. And now I feel like this has kind of become your identity, and I'm wondering what that's been like for you over these past few years.
E. Jean Carroll (26:03):
Well, I've been reading you too, Dorie. Come on. Oh, thanks. I mean, we're all journalists together. Yeah, that's great. And now you're a podcaster. Now I'm a podcaster. Keeping life interesting. Keeping life interesting. This is what we do, and when we change
Elise Hu (26:19):
Is constant. Yes.
E. Jean Carroll (26:20):
That's it. That's it. And that's what we're doing. And well, right now, we all got to get off our lazy asses. So everybody should change themselves instead of talk about changing the world. We should change ourselves first and get off our lazy asses. What's going on is not good, as you well know.
Elise Hu (26:37):
Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to ask you about that because is there anything about the way that Trump has behaved in this second administration the second time at bat as president, that has surprised you? Or is this basically kind of a continuation of an arc that you're very familiar with?
E. Jean Carroll (27:03):
Who could have foreseen the swiftness in which the United States of America crumbled to his command? Who could have foreseen it? Nobody could have foreseen it. I don't care if people say they could have foreseen it. Nobody could have seen how swiftly it was done. The country is now absolutely flat. I mean, with these pulled out, the insides of the government taking away completely reversed all the hard work on sexual equality. It's just been devastating. It's devastating. So yeah, I think we've got to not be quiet any longer.
Elise Hu (27:38):
Yeah. And you have actually beaten him in court. You are one of the few people who, as you mentioned, has actually been able to hold him accountable for lying, but also been victorious in this public, both public and legal battle against him. Did you learn anything from that about how to challenge?
E. Jean Carroll (28:01):
Yeah, I did. I learned I was the only woman on earth to beat Donald Trump twice. And I'm an 81-year-old dislocated crone. So what I learned is if I can do it, anybody can do it. Just think there's nobody lower or weaker than an old, old lady. And this old, old lady took him on and beat the shit out of him. So it's great. Of course, I had the best attorney in the country, Robbie Kaplan, and nothing scares her. Nothing. She's only this big, she is tiny. No, that's all it takes. If we just would stand up. But everybody in Congress is like, the Republicans are the Republicans. Geez. They're terrified of them. I don't understand it.
Elise Hu (28:52):
Yeah. It is kind of mystifying.
E. Jean Carroll (28:55):
I don't know. Can you explain it to me? What do you think
Elise Hu (29:00):
Performance of power? I feel like it's a branding genius. The one thing he's really good at is marketing and branding, and yes, himself, but then also his opponents. Right. So
E. Jean Carroll (29:17):
Yeah.
Elise Hu (29:18):
Right. If you can't see through that or you believe that your constituents can't see through it, then you just go with it. I don't know. I mean, it's just a personality at this point.
E. Jean Carroll (29:28):
Well, he is the smartest man. He's one of the smartest men in the last century. Really. Who else has taken over the entire United States in three months? I mean, nobody, not even the founding father. So he is smart that you labeled it.
Elise Hu (29:48):
Brandon's smart in way. Yes. Right. He has a kind of intellect, for sure.
E. Jean Carroll (29:53):
Major, major. He reads a room really fast. He didn't read our jury by the way that he did not see that coming. But to me, he's just full of hot air and can be prick, prick, prick. But nobody stands up to do it. When two ladies stood up and did it, he went down like a ton of bricks. So we just presented evidence. We've learned from what works, and I hope people can benefit from it, but I don't think so. I don't think they will. I think they're too demoralized and they're trying on cosmetics in Bergdorf's basement, and they're keeping themselves happy because everybody's
E. Jean Carroll (30:42):
Terrified. And
E. Jean Carroll (30:43):
You have that one nice thing, oh, this blush looks really good, and you're getting in a great mood for the day because you look pretty. And we run into a friend on the street and go have coffee. She says, you look really pretty. What'd you do? Oh, I got the new blush. So that's our lives now, but underneath it's crumbling. What do you think, Dory? What do you think?
Doree Shafrir (31:05):
What do I think about why he's so popular?
E. Jean Carroll (31:07):
Yeah, you're rocking in your chair. I can see you
Doree Shafrir (31:10):
Rocking. Yeah. I'm kind of mulling all of this over. I don't disagree with anything either of you has been saying, but I do think there's this other element, and that kind of goes along with his ability to read the room and his ability to read the electorate. And I think he was able to tap into this politics of victimhood and aggrieve in a way that the Democrats were not able to counter at all. And that goes along with what the rest of what you were saying. He was able to kind of brand things really well. But now
E. Jean Carroll (31:46):
That thing about victimhood is good because he caught that nature of the country right away.
Elise Hu (31:52):
Yeah,
E. Jean Carroll (31:52):
Boy,
Elise Hu (31:53):
That's right. And then also, when you have no sense of shame, when you have no shame, it turns out it can take you really far. Yeah. Yes.
E. Jean Carroll (32:03):
That's it. And we should all learn that lesson. We should have no shame and just go out and do what we want to do. Wait a minute, I'm writing that note down. Have no shame. Have no shame. Okay. I like that. I like that. That's what Democrats feel. Shame.
Elise Hu (32:26):
I know. It's constantly. Yeah. Well, that's the constant knock against Democrats, right? All of the focus grouping and the cowering and the politeness. Yeah, exactly. This is a thing. We don't want to be rude.
E. Jean Carroll (32:41):
Boy, that is really, and half the Republicans feel the same way. Lisa, what's her name from Alaska? She feels shame. It's not just Mur Democrats. Yeah, Murkowski. She feels it too. That's right. We've got to have no shame. We've got to have no shame, ladies. Okay. I like
Doree Shafrir (33:02):
This. E. Jean, I want to also ask you about the process of writing the book, because we discussed at the beginning about how this was kind of a surprise. No one knew it was coming. When did you know you wanted to write a book and write book? What was the process of writing it like for you? How long did it take you also,
E. Jean Carroll (33:21):
I knew I wanted to write a book the minute I stepped in that courtroom. Because remember, I'm an old journalist, 50 years,
(33:28)
And I was immediately taken by the whole world. I was entering. So at the end of every night, this is me into the thing. So I yammered into my phone, into, I took video. I didn't do voice. I did video, so I could see where I was as I was talking so I could capture the moment. So I was overloaded with every small detail of every day. And so I had the court s, I had the depositions, I had videos, I had everything. And I had characters that nobody in the world could have dreamed of. And of course, I wanted to write the book as I was sitting in court. I was every now and again writing on a post-it. So yeah, I was itching to write this book, itching. It was easy to write. It wrote itself. Yeah. Well,
Elise Hu (34:24):
It's a very easy read too, because it's so entertaining. Thank you. Elise.
(34:28)
Obviously, we're devastated by what you had to go through and what you had to live in order to get to this trial and writing about the trial. But you've obviously lived a full life. And before we let you go, E. Jean Carol, you wrote an advice column for many years, and we often get a lot of questions, advice, questions from our listeners. And so I just wanted to do, wanted to get advice from you on giving advice. Love it. What kind of framework, what do you apply and how do you think about questions when other people ask you for advice?
E. Jean Carroll (35:01):
Well, I just listen very closely or read very closely, and then I figure out what they want me to say, and then I tell 'em to go do it. No, really the answer to everybody's question is generally inside the question. And a lot of times people, they just want to have that shove that gets them going. Women who rub to me write to me about horrible lovers. I mean, doing the most despicable things in the world. They just need that final push to get him the hell out the door. So that's basically what a great advice columnist does. You have really listened to what they want to do because no matter what you tell 'em, they're going to do it anyway. So at least give 'em a shove in the proper way to do it.
Elise Hu (35:49):
Okay. Great advice about advice. Thank you, E. Jean Carol. Thank you, Elise.
Doree Shafrir (35:56):
E. Jean, where can our listeners find you? I know you have a substack. Do you want to mention that?
E. Jean Carroll (36:02):
Well, thank you for E. Jean Carol Substack. E. Jean Carol Substack. But you don't need to look for me. All you need to do is grab joy. I want everybody out there to love your podcast. You're all about enjoying the new Year's to watch your podcasts, to pick up the tips and grab the joy when it comes along. You don't need to look for E. Jean Carol, anywhere E. Jean. Carol's doing just fine where she is. But I want you to grab the joy. Grab it. Fantastic. Love. I love that. Thank you so much. Thank you. I love it. I love it.
Doree Shafrir (36:51):
She was so herself and so delightful and so smart and insightful, and she's just been through so much. I feel like it's a cliche to be like she's so strong, but she is. She's really strong. She really had to. I mean, what she did is truly unbelievable.
Elise Hu (37:13):
I know. And she
Doree Shafrir (37:13):
Did it with, I'm in awe of you, E. Jean, if you're listening.
Elise Hu (37:16):
Absolutely. And what I admire is how she did it with such a sense of humor and curiosity. The entire time she was observing, she writes about how some of the things would happen to her in court, and she would make a note to herself that she needed to write this down. Totally. So just like that instinct to be able to find levity despite the weight of what she was going through and has had to live, I think is just a gift to the rest of us. So yeah. Thanks E. Jean.
Doree Shafrir (37:47):
Well, Elise, did you increase your exercise last week?
Elise Hu (37:52):
Okay. Funny story. Funny story. I did start, I did start, and I was back into jogging and I was feeling great. And then I signed up for these blood tests that I need to do, which I talked about on the casual chat for function health. And it's two days of blood tests over different days, because one day you have to be on your period, and then on the other test, you can't be on your period and you have to fast and not exercise.
Doree Shafrir (38:17):
Geez.
Elise Hu (38:17):
So it got in the way of my intention a bit towards the back half. Understandable, understandable. Yeah. But yeah, I felt good. Just kind of getting a little bit back into that routine. What about you? What was your intention?
Doree Shafrir (38:33):
My intention last week was about Henry School, just kind of wanting to get him off on the right foot. And I feel like that went well. He had what seemed to be a great first day. Yeah. So I think that went well this week. I think I actually would like to rejoin a gym, but I just don't have the budget for that right now. So I do want to get back into a strength routine. I was doing really well for a while, and then I think all the stuff with tennis just really took over. And I mean, there were some weeks where I played tennis every day, and that's a lot. And so I didn't have time for anything else, but this week I didn't play tennis the last few days. I didn't play tennis Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and I didn't do anything else. So I'm like, I could have just done some strength stuff because I do feel like it's so important. So I want to get back into it. Good. And what about
Elise Hu (39:38):
You? Are you done for, sorry? Are you done with tennis for the most part until sectionals? Or are you all going to run practices and things?
Doree Shafrir (39:47):
You mean nationals?
Elise Hu (39:48):
Oh, sorry. Nationals. Sorry. I didn't mean to demote this
Doree Shafrir (39:53):
Excuse
Elise Hu (39:53):
You.
Doree Shafrir (39:54):
Exactly.
Elise Hu (39:55):
I know,
Doree Shafrir (39:57):
Boy, not a mistake you want to make. It's actually a really weird, crazy time seasonally for adult recreational tennis because we're finishing up our mixed double season. We're also finishing up our tri-level season, and then we're also about to start our fall double season while also prepping for nationals. So it's actually a very weirdly busy tennis time right now. Oh boy. Yeah.
Elise Hu (40:25):
Wow. Okay. So you do not get much of a break TLDR? No, we don't. Well, I'll, I will just call back to what I was talking about before our interview, which is we are going to crowdfund for windswept my documentary about kids who are growing up in a time of natural disaster. And this weekend we're going to make a promo video, a social media promo video for the crowdfund. And so this next week is going to be about outreach and doing the things that you have to do before you have a book come out and you got to ask your friends to pre-order and all those things. I'm kind of prepping that email. Again, I'm back in that world, but I'm really excited about it. I feel more passionate about this than I even did about Flawless, which was my first and only book. And so I'm excited about it. It's just like I got to get my ducks in a row and organize a list and all of those things. So that'll be my intention for the week that we can check back in on next week.
Doree Shafrir (41:27):
Okay. Well, I'm excited. Alright. And this is also the monthly episode where we thank our Patreon supporters at the $10 level and above. I can read these names this month.
Elise Hu (41:45):
Alright, go for it.
Doree Shafrir (41:46):
Thank you to the following supporters. Christie, Heather Whaley, Caitlin h Katie, Ashley Taylor, Theresa Anderson, Michelle Maya, Barbara Chios. Amy, Amy Schnitzer, Megan Helen, de Mos, Shelly Lee, Kim Beagler, Sarah, Sarah Boozy, Alison Cohen, Susan Eth, Melissa McClain, Fran, Kelsey Wolf, Donne, Laura Eddy, jet, APTI, Valerie, Bruno, Jane, Thoreau, Julie, Daniel E, Jackson, Amy, Mako, Liz, rain. J. DK. Jennifer Smith, Hannah M Julia Putt, Maddie O Day, Marissa, Lauren Gitlin, Sarah Bell, Maria, Diana, Coco Bean, Laura Hadden, Josie H, Nikki, Boer, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres, Tiffany G, Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Ana, Olivia Fahe, Elizabeth a Christine Basses, Alison, Mark Lane, Jessica Gale, Zulema, Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Gold, a and t, Nikki, Catherine Ellingson, Kara Brugmann, Sarah H Sarah Egan, Jess Bin, Jennifer Olson, Jennifer Hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne, Macy, Elizabeth Holland, Karen Perlman, Katie, Jordan, Sarah, MKM, Josie, Quis, Tara, Todd, Elizabeth, Cleary, and Monica. Thank you all so much. We are so grateful for your support. If you want to support us on Patreon, you can do that at patreon.com/forever three five. We do casual chat bonus episodes every week. We do a pop culture recommendations episode every week. You also get ad free episodes at the $10 level or above.
(43:19)
There's a lot of fun stuff happening over there. And just a reminder that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner's Acast. Thanks everyone. Thank y'all so much. Talk to you next time. Bye.