Episode 355: Money Is the Tool, Not the Goal with Reema Khrais
To kick off Money Month, Doree and Elise bring on Reema Khrais, host of the Marketplace podcast This Is Uncomfortable. They discuss everything from why money is a fraught subject, especially in relationships, how to have conversations about it, and some practical takeaways to start building a good financial foundation.
Mentioned in this Episode
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Episode Chapters
*Time stamps are approximate and do not include ads
00:00 - Intro with Doree & Elise
~07:30 - Self-care: morning routine & crocheting
~12:00 - What is it about money that makes it such a fraught subject? (what they think money will bring them)
~14:15 - Why do people even feel like they’re “bad” with money? (they’ll be judged/feel shame)
~16:45 - How can we counteract the emotions and subconscious beliefs we carry with us about money?
~18:00 - Money scripts
~20:00 - How do we use this information to repair our relationships with money?
~22:30 - Money & Friendships
~27:00 - Loaning Money or Starting a Business with Friends
~31:00 - What are repeated themes and questions that come up in This Is Uncomfortable
~33:00 - Surprises coming up in Season 10 of This Is Uncomfortable
~36:30 - Discuss the tension between making ends meet and being fulfilled
~41:15 - Takeaways for a good financial foundation
~46:00 - Intention Zone
Transcript
The transcript for this episode is Ai generated.
Doree (00:10):
Hello and welcome to February 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums
Doree (00:22):
And we are kicking off Money Month.
Elise (00:25):
Money Month is here. As you all know, we have been doing special themed series on various topics that our Patreon community has been asking for. We did midlife and menopause last fall, earlier this year. We had a really great February with Friendship Month, and now we are kicking off a month dedicated to our finances, the way we think about money, the way society thinks about money, and we have a lot of great guests in store for you.
Doree (00:55):
So today we have Reema Khrais who hosts the Marketplace podcast This is Uncomfortable and we will do a formal introduction of her in a couple minutes, but we are also having on some other amazing guests throughout the month, like Dana Miranda who wrote, you Don't Need a Budget. I feel like that's going to be a Lightning Rod episode. She says some stuff that will blow your mind, Amanda Clayman, who is a clinician specializing in money issues and host of the Emotional Investment Podcast and Real Forever 35 Heads will remember that Amanda was on our show seven years ago. My God,
Elise (01:35):
Was it an episode in the double digits?
Doree (01:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think she came on at the end of 2018, so it was a long time ago. So she comes back. And then we also have Jannese Torres, who is the host of the podcast, Yo Quiero Dinero, an author of the book Financially Lit. They all address different things about money, different things about personal finance. They answer some of your questions about money. They're all amazing in their own ways and I don't know, I feel like this is going to be a really interesting month for people to get into it.
Elise (02:12):
I think we curated a real range of guests for this month too. We didn't have just everybody who is a financial coach who can talk about retirement on, we talked about Totally. Today's show is, doesn't really get into the nitty gritty of how to invest. Right. Today's show is really about our relationships with money and then how money affects our relationships. Totally. And then we get into money as part of a capitalistic system when we have Dana on, and then we get into more of your questions and practical applications for personal with the final two guests of the month. So it's a real diverse cast of characters and topics and we really hit various aspects. So excited about it.
Doree (02:59):
Before we introduce her though, is there anything else that's going on with you, Elise, that you want to talk about?
Elise (03:06):
Oh boy. Well, we came off the three day weekend, really loved having Kate on for Memorial Day, and I know a lot of y'all did too. Her book is coming out I think this week, so congratulations and Happy Pub Date to Kate, which tomorrow, I think tomorrow is her official pub date. I have been really busy with end of school year stuff. I still don't have a plan for summer vacation because I'm just behind. I really wanted to go to Zion. I think we talked about how I wanted to go to Zion National Park, and then I've been scared because of Doge, and so we still haven't pulled the trigger on this.
Doree (03:51):
So Elise, in an upcoming mini ep, we got a message from a listener about going to Zion post Doge. So I think you'll be interested in this content. Little preview of what's to come. Oh
Elise (04:07):
Dear. Okay. Alright. It's
Doree (04:09):
Not bad.
Elise (04:10):
It's not bad. Okay, good, good, good.
Doree (04:11):
Spoiler. It's not bad.
Elise (04:13):
Fantastic. Fantastic. The French open is going on, so I'm in pretty good spirits. I'm taking part in a French open pool this year. Yeah.
Doree (04:21):
How's your pool going?
Elise (04:23):
I gambled $10 and some of my picks have already gone down in round one.
Doree (04:27):
Oh no. So
Elise (04:29):
Everybody gets to pick three from the top 10 or top 10 seats. Yes. And then you get to pick another three players from the 11 to 35 seats, and then you pick an unranked player and then you see how many of your picks are surviving by the end of the tournament. And actually by the end of each round she calculates it. And after round one, four of my 12 were already out, so
Doree (04:53):
Oh no,
Elise (04:55):
I still have two thirds of my picks standing, but I didn't fare the worst. There were people who had more go out in round one. A lot of the unseated players are kind of a crapshoot. A lot of people picked Naomi Osaka as their unseed woman, and she went out.
Doree (05:11):
She gets the Ys. I mean, she is known for getting the Ys. That's
Elise (05:15):
Yeah, she's a reminder. Yeah, she's a reminder of just how you can have a lot of physical power and technical skill, but then the game is so mental. The
Doree (05:24):
Mental stuff. All right. Well, Elise, should we formally introduce our guest?
Elise (05:32):
Yeah, I am delighted to. Reema Khrais is the host of the Marketplace podcast. This is uncomfortable if y'all haven't heard it. It's a narrative show about life and how money messes with it. She has a lot of uncomfortable conversations with people about money, and she just dives into it. She first joined Marketplace in 2016 as a GA reporter. She covered everything from immigration and education to retail and employment. She's also been an ICFJ bringing the World Home Fellow. She traveled to Turkey to report on the lives of Syrian refugees for Marketplace for that. And before that, she worked at North Carolina Public Radio and got her start in audio as an NPR Croc fellow, which included reporting at wnyc. She is a graduate of UNC Chapel Hill Go guitar heels and is fluent in Arabic. She lives in Portland, Oregon where she spends her free time hiking, making ceramics and spoiling her orange cat.
Doree (06:32):
She was great. I really, really like talking to her. And before we actually get to her, just a reminder, you can visit our website, February 35 podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention on the show. We are on Instagram at February 35 podcast. We always post some video clips on our Instagram, so you can go check those out. Our patreon is patreon.com/forever three five. And I feel like not everyone knows that. We do ad free episodes on our Patreon. So for $10 a month, you get those episodes without any ads. So if you're just over the ads, this is for
Elise (07:06):
You, which we get. We understand if you are,
Doree (07:08):
We understand our favorite products are at Shop my US slash forever three five, and our newsletter is at Forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. And please call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at Forever 35 podcast@gmail.com. And here is Reema
Elise (07:31):
Reema, thank you so much for joining us for our special money
Reema Khrais (07:35):
Series. Yes, I'm very excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Elise (07:39):
I don't know if you have been listening to the show already, but we start all our interviews by asking what you've been doing to take care of yourself lately. What are you doing that you would consider self-care?
Reema Khrais (07:53):
Okay, so I have two answers. One is, so I've been working remotely now for the last five years, and it's taken me forever to figure out a morning routine. And I've failed and succeeded a million times. And these last six months is the only thing I've discovered, a routine that has actually made me feel very grounded and happy, and it's very simple. And I think part of the problem was I was trying to do too much for too long. I'd be like, I need to meditate, and then I need to journal, then I need to call my parents. And then I, I know I was just trying to put everything at the beginning of the day that was important to me. And so now I just wake up, I do the whole thing where I don't look at my phone, walk around the block, even if it's just for five minutes stretch. I have a little mug, my favorite purple mug where I drink tea out of every morning anyway, but just the consistency of that has been really, it's been really grounding. So there's that. And then I've recently gotten into crocheting. Do either of y'all like crochet or knit?
Elise (08:56):
My middle daughter?
Reema Khrais (08:58):
Oh, nice. It's really fun. It
Elise (09:00):
Looks hard.
Reema Khrais (09:02):
No, it depends on what you do, but it was a very unexpected thing that I came across a few months ago. And yeah, I guess it's almost like that feeling you get when you just scroll through your phone mindlessly and you can just zone out. It's the same kind of, yes, I get it every day. Yes, I'm very aware of that feeling, but it's the same. It replicates that kind of feeling, but without the bad emotions that come with it, and I can just kind of zone out and it's very repetitive. But also it can be very, it seems it's like one of those activities that can seem isolating, but it's also connecting in a lot of ways. A lot of the things I've been making have been for friends, like their babies and thinking little gifts. So that's been really nice.
Doree (09:51):
Knit knitting crocheting are such a good other activity to do when you're watching tv. My brother and sister and I all swam competitively, and I just have such a memory of my mom sitting in the stands, just knitting, knitting and knitting and knitting. Just sort of something to occupy yourself. But yeah, you're right. It's so much better than just staring at your phone
Reema Khrais (10:16):
And you always hear about how art can be therapeutic. And I do think it's a form of art to do crocheting, but I don't think I really understood until these last couple of years just how good it can feel. It can really force you to slow down and channel whatever you're feeling into something physical or visual or tangible. And it does feel like a kind of emotional release. And it's also just a nice reminder that you can make things. Yeah, no, I did that and that feels good.
Doree (10:47):
What's your favorite thing that you've crocheted?
Reema Khrais (10:50):
So one of my friends just had a baby and they named Herma, which was really, I mean, I don't think it's so much after they like the name, but, and Arabic means little deer. And so I crocheted a little deer, which was really cute. And that was the first stuffed animal that I made
Elise (11:13):
That feels advanced too, to be able
Reema Khrais (11:15):
To, honestly, Elise, I planted the idea in my head. I was like, I'm going to do a deer. And then multiple steps in the, I was like, why am I doing this again? Why am I doing this during work hours? What is going on here? A project, their headss so small. Yeah, it's like the dimensions. It's a lot. Yeah, I had to unravel it multiple times, but it was satisfying in the end.
Elise (11:37):
Reema, you have been hosting a podcast about our relationship for 10 seasons now. So, we wanted to have you on as a guide to relationship our relationships in real life. So just to set the table, what is it about money that makes it so fraught?
Reema Khrais (12:03):
Great question. Okay, so like you said, I've been doing this for 10 seasons and which is about five years. So I wanted people to talk vulnerably and honestly about the relationship with money so that they could feel less alone in their struggles. And I think what I didn't fully understand until I started hosting this show is that when people talk about money, they're not just talking about money. It's usually a stand in for deeper desires and fears. Like yes, they want their bank account to look different, but I've learned that what people are really craving is maybe freedom or a sense of safety or a sense of belonging or maybe a feeling of worthiness. And so they're in pursuit of the life or the feeling they think money will unlock, and those desires don't come out of nowhere. They're shaped by so many things. How we were raised, what we saw growing up, the messages we absorb from the world around us about success, about gender roles or class or race and what it means to be secure or valuable.
(13:17):
And so I think money can feel so fraught because like I said, I think oftentimes you're not really talking about money. And oftentimes we don't really know where our beliefs around money are coming from. And so to me, talking openly about money, it can help you get clear not just about your finances, but about those underlying beliefs and values and where they come from. And that is just as valuable as learning the nitty gritty on how to invest or budget. Because if you're riddled with anxiety or shame, if you're not really reflecting on what's driving you, then it's going to be a lot harder to build a healthy, lasting relationship with money.
Doree (13:58):
I feel like something that has come up on your show, and I think something that a lot of people are sort of preoccupied with is this idea of being bad at money. And I'd love to unpack that a little bit. What does that mean and why do people think that they are bad at money?
Reema Khrais (14:17):
Yeah. Well, I think you're right. And I feel like that all the time where I'm, even the other day I was like, why did I spend that much on this? Or why didn't I think twice about before I made these international calls that now I racked up a $50 bill the other day, which is so stupid.
Elise (14:37):
I also feel like I never learned it really. It's not a practical skill that I really learned about growing
Reema Khrais (14:44):
Up. Yeah, exactly. And so we don't learn about it, and we're not socialized to talk about money. It's often treated obviously as a taboo. It's something that's too personal or too loaded or too impolite to bring up. And so because of that, I think there's a lot of fear and shame wrapped around it. There's this fear that if our friends and family knew how much we make or what our bank account looks like, or then those numbers would be that they would become another way to be judged or categorized, that they'd somehow be seen as a reflection of our worth.
Elise (15:19):
And I think that's on both ends of the spectrum. Rich people don't want to know, want people to know that they're rich. And then on the opposite too, if you feel like you're not making enough money or that you don't have much of a financial nest egg, you could also feel shame about that.
Reema Khrais (15:36):
Yeah, exactly. And shame in particular is such a powerful emotion. I think when we carry shame about anything, but especially with money, it makes us secretive and shame. It thrives in secrecy. It isolates us. It convinces us that we're the only ones who are bad with money or we're exceptional in some way, and it makes us spiral even more. So I think to answer your question, yeah, I've had so many conversations over the years about how those feelings, about how the shame or the fear or the avoidance can, how we can just feel more inaction and it can feel like it's easy to tell ourselves stories, I'm just so bad with money or I'll never get ahead. And those beliefs can keep us stuck, especially if you've internalized the idea that your financial situation says something about your ability or your character.
Doree (16:31):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise (16:43):
What do we do to counteract that thinking? What have you learned about what we can do to get past that bias?
Reema Khrais (16:52):
Well, I think first is just recognizing that money is just not about math. And there's so much more to it there. I've been saying the stories and the beliefs, and a lot of times it's what we've inherited. I remember I've talked to a lot of financial therapists over the years. I'm always surprised to hear just how much of our relationship with money is driven by our unconscious beliefs. Like I was saying, the messages we internalize when we were younger, how we saw our families handle money, how our communities talked about the rich or the poor. And we connect emotions to money before we even have the words to describe those emotions. And we often carry those associations with us through adulthood, and then they turn into beliefs that shape our relationship with money. And so I think the first step is just recognizing that that's a thing, and sitting down with yourself and understanding where those beliefs come from, literally journaling and being like, okay, what was my earliest memory with money? And what did I hear my parents say about it? And what are the patterns that are emerging? And how does that connect to how I'm handling money today? Have y'all heard of money scripts?
Elise (18:04):
No. Say more.
Reema Khrais (18:05):
So this is a thing a lot of financial therapists will talk about. Basically they'll categorize, they'll boil down our relationship with money to four categories, and it's money avoidance, money vigilant money worshiper and money status. So you can identify with one or more of those categories, but just briefly, money avoiders sounds like what it is. They tend to be people who avoid thinking about money. They're the people in your life. I mean, honestly, I could fall into this category.
Elise (18:40):
I think I do too.
Reema Khrais (18:42):
Yeah, I mean, I definitely do. Maybe they're the people who put things in the shopping cart without looking at the price or who ignore financial statements, or maybe they overspend or they equate money with things like green and corruption. And then there's money vigilant. These are people who are on top of their finances. They're trying to save money where they can, they're probably more anxious. They're checking their statements. They're usually a little bit more private with their finances. There's money worshipers. Those are the people who put money up on a pedestal and they think it's the solution to all of their problems. They're more likely to put work ahead of friends and family money. Status seekers are more likely to link their self-worth to their bank account, so maybe they value outward displays of wealth. Do you all identify with any of those? You said avoidance.
Elise (19:41):
Well, and I have a family member in each of those categories too.
Reema Khrais (19:44):
You can think of people who falls in those categories.
Elise (19:47):
Yeah.
Reema Khrais (19:49):
And so yeah, like I said, you can identify with more than one of those, but I think it's just a fascinating way to reflect on your relationship with money and some of the messaging you may have picked up on when you were younger.
Elise (20:01):
How do we use that understanding to make healthier financial decisions, though? I know. Yeah. Help me take this to the practical realm.
Reema Khrais (20:11):
What do I do with this information? Honestly, I struggle with this myself where I'm like, okay, I know that I have these beliefs. I think something that I've heard over the years is just how important it is. I was saying earlier, to sit down to journal, et cetera, but also to just create small financial habits. They don't need to be, you're not going to change your relationship with money overnight, but maybe every Sunday, start checking your bank statements. Make it into a little ritual. Maybe you go in a certain place in your house or apartment and you put your favorite song, make yourself a favorite drink, and you just for the next hour, you're like, I'm going to go through my finances. And also I think going back to just recognizing some of those beliefs. I don't know about you all, but whenever I have at least somewhat a little bit more awareness of what's going on with myself, just naming it, it helps loosen the grip. Some of those emotions have over me.
Elise (21:11):
That's true.
Reema Khrais (21:13):
And it can at least lead me to more action. And it's also like whenever you feel that shame, and again, I applied this to parts of my life outside of money, but whenever I feel that shame creeping up, I'm like, okay. I mean, it's like the basic therapy thing, but it's like, let me be more curious. Where is this coming from?
Elise (21:29):
Yeah. Fit in the discomfort.
Reema Khrais (21:31):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I think, yeah, creating some, and have you all heard of money dates? That's a big thing that people talk about in the financial community, just if you're in a relationship similar to what you're doing with individually, but just making it into a thing that you can expect each month or each week. And like you were saying earlier, Lisa, we don't learn these things in school. And so I have to constantly remind myself if I want to get my financial life in shape, I have to be intentional about this. I have to sit down and teach myself a little bit more about investing. I have to take it seriously. I have to carve out the time. And it's easy just to be like, I'm going to do it tomorrow or next week or next month. But the longer we wait, it makes it harder.
Doree (22:23):
I feel like a lot of the conversations are around money in romantic relationships, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how people can approach money, tension in friendships. I feel like that is something that's almost even less talked about than how to navigate money with your significant other.
Reema Khrais (22:46):
Yeah, you're right. I think a lot of the discourses around romantic relationships, a topic that comes up a lot is just how tricky it can be when there are income differences in friendships. What do you do when a friend wants to go to a fancy birthday trip you can't afford, or you feel guilty for having more financial stability than someone close to you? And it's really awkward and it's hard when your financial reality start to diverge.
Elise (23:12):
And I remember wedding seasons being really tough in my mid twenties when everybody was getting married and I had to go to six weddings a year, and a lot of 'em were destination, and I was sort of like, ah,
Reema Khrais (23:21):
I know. And it's like at a certain point you're like, I can't afford this. I can't keep doing this. And then at what point do you cut that off? And then it feels insulting at the front. It's hard. It's hard to navigate, and it can show up in smaller ways. Who's splitting the bill who can afford a group trip? And it is easy to feel resentful or ashamed or left out. And going back to what I was saying earlier, it's often because it's not always just about the money itself, it's about what it represents, feeling like you're left behind or you're not valued equally. Or on the flip side, feeling like you have to overextend yourself to maintain closeness. Actually, one of the reasons this podcast even came about, I was in my mid twenties, and I remember I was filling out a renter's application with my friend.
(24:16):
We had to put down our income, and I remember glancing at her application and seeing how much she makes, and then I kind of acted like I didn't see it. And I remember thinking, why was that my reaction? And why is this something that we can't talk about? I know the most intimate details of her life. Yeah, I don't know how much she makes. I don't know if her parents are helping her out. I don't know if she actually has that much in student debt. It's easy to make assumption about our friends' financial situations and then use those assumptions as benchmarks for our own perceived success or failure, and then feel bad about ourselves. And so that's why I think it's so important to talk about it, even though it's really hard.
Elise (24:55):
Have you gotten better at talking about money given your line of work? It's
Reema Khrais (25:02):
Funny. Yes. I actually think I, I am better at having conversations, especially in everyday conversations. I am much more likely to be like, oh, how much is your rent? I mean, obviously I'm picking up on social cues and whatnot, but I don't shy away from talking with my coworkers or friends about my salary.
Elise (25:21):
How do people react?
Reema Khrais (25:22):
I had this moment on the phone with my friend the other day where I kind of explicitly told her that I think she could be making more money based on this information that I have about her. And there was a moment where I was like, oh, did she just react to that kind of negatively? Did I cross the line there? And so I do have some of those moments where I'm like, because, well,
Elise (25:42):
That's where our money is tied into our self-worth. And if I heard that from you, I'd be like, oh, you think I'm worth more than I think I am? That was kind,
Reema Khrais (25:52):
Yeah. But I was trying to make it sound like a compliment too. Like, oh, I know how much you contribute and I know that you could be making more. But then I think I was nervous that it actually made her feel bad about herself in some way. And so I apologized afterwards
Elise (26:05):
While we're on this topic of money and friendship, where are you on loaning money to a friend?
Reema Khrais (26:10):
I've never been in a situation where a friend has asked me to loan money, and so I haven't had to encounter that. But I think I would just be really explicit about our expectations. I have a friend who's like, if I'm loaning money to someone, that means I'm never going to get that money back, and I'm just going to accept that. And so I like that mentality to some degree. It's like I, it's
Elise (26:35):
Almost like an investment when you ask a family member for an investment in your Kickstarter or whatever.
Reema Khrais (26:41):
And so I would just be mindful of how much money it is, how much, if it's a reasonable amount and I can be fine without it, then I probably would just, yeah, if things go south, I wouldn't want to feel resentful, but I would be wary about going into business with a friend
Elise (27:01):
That's not just financial, that's so many other factors and dynamics.
Reema Khrais (27:05):
Right. Cool. But I think going back to generally how to manage money and friendships, and this can apply to so much, so many other topics, but I think just talking about it vulnerably is key. Just saying how you feel and not putting any blame on the friend, but just saying, I am struggling right now. I can't afford to go on this trip. And oftentimes if they respond negatively, then that is a cue that probably, maybe that friendship wasn't as strong as he thought it was.
Doree (27:44):
Do you remember, I think this was a couple years ago, there was this viral TikTok of this group of guy friends who were going on vacation and they had this spreadsheet of how much everyone made, and it just obviously raised all these issues. I'm
Reema Khrais (28:03):
Remembering this
Doree (28:04):
Now. Yeah, I don't remember the exact takeaway, but I just remember people were sort of shocked that, but it was interesting, they were talking very openly about money in a way that I think most people don't with their friends. So to me that was an interesting aspect, like, oh, how much all of your friends make? That's unusual, but they also just seem like, sure.
Elise (28:32):
Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree (28:42):
I'd love to talk about your podcast. I'd love to talk about this as uncomfortable. Now that you've been doing it for, what, five years, 10 seasons, five years, what are some of the patterns you've seen in the discussions on the show? What are things that kind of come up again and again that you've noticed?
Reema Khrais (29:06):
Yeah, I mean, a lot of the themes go back to what I was saying earlier about how people don't realize just how much their relationship with money is shaped from different moments in their lives, including childhood, but also just, I talked with a financial therapist once who labeled, who used the term financial, I believe. Oh, financial flashpoints. So these are events in your life that shape your relationship with money in some way. So it might be something as simple as overhearing your parents arguing about money or your family experiencing a medical emergency. And so a lot of our stories will go back to those moments where things started to turn for them in some way. And then also, I think I've learned just generally talking to so many people how irrational we are with our money.
(29:57):
It's like our brains are wired in ways that keep us from making healthy choices, even if that's what we want for ourselves. And that applies to finances. And so it's easy to think that, oh, if I just created the right budget or if I did X, Y, Z, then all my problems would be solved. But a big theme that this conversation is that so many of our problems are rooted in psychology and these cognitive biases too that we have. And so I think so many of us are resistant to change because our brains trick us into thinking that if you change your financial life, you have to do it in this dramatic way and you're not going to like it. It's going to be hard and you're going to suffer. And so I think a lot of times we have to circumvent those tendencies by doing all these things that we're talking about, which is talking about money openly with the people in your life, and also taking these small baby steps every day around our finances. And over time we'll see larger changes. And so that comes up a lot. And also relationships, just how thorny it can be.
Elise (31:09):
What about surprises? Where have you been surprised by the way that money has affected us psychologically or relationally or I, or even just juicy stories from this upcoming season?
Reema Khrais (31:22):
Oh, yeah,
Elise (31:23):
Because we haven't heard it yet. So if you want to hit some highlights, give us an idea of what we're in for this season.
Reema Khrais (31:31):
Yes. So I interviewed this couple, and they were really interesting. They were listeners. And so we have this recurring segment on our show called Money Fight, where we invite people to come on to talk about an issue and their relationship and how they overcame it as it relates to finances. And so there was this couple that just, they live in Seattle. They're both high earners. They work in tech and they just could not see eye to eye on buying a home. One of them, Chantal, the woman, she wanted to buy a home like asap. She was like, I have the money. I could do it myself if I wanted to. And he was like, no, you're rushing us to reach these milestones when I'm not ready. And so they kept just going back and forth and it led, I don't want to give too much of it away, but it led to some ultimatums and some difficult conversations.
(32:20):
And then we get into their backstories a little bit and how their own kind of upbringings and relationship with money informed the way that they approached this big financial decision, but also smaller financial decisions, day-to-day stuff. And then we also paired them with the financial therapist to talk these issues through. And then I interviewed another couple, well, interestingly, they did not start as a couple. They were coworkers and one of them was dealing with just having a really difficult time at work. The other one was single and decided to do IVF and have twins, but she couldn't afford childcare. It's a pretty wild story. And so their lives merge in this unexpected way where the guy decides to become a nanny for her twins, and then they fall in love in the process. I'm giving the whole story away, but it's really beautiful and it hits at some of these universal issues of unaffordable childcare and precarity at work.
Elise (33:21):
And you're getting more into work as a topic too. And that's where you and Dory kind of overlap because Dory is now writing a column for Slate about work, work life, and offering advice for various thorny work questions. And so this tension between needing to earn a living and put food on the table or pay for camp or whatever, and being fulfilled, especially in our thirties and forties, where do you come down on that tension? Do you have a framework for thinking about it that could be helpful?
Reema Khrais (33:55):
Yeah, it's something I think about personally of just, yeah, what kind of work do I want? And more importantly, what value is my work bringing to the world and how can I continue to do that? And I talk with a lot of people in my life who struggle with that tension where maybe they're making, they have a high paying job, but they have some ethical qualms about the kind of work that they do and there are no perfect answers for. But I think especially when something I think about a lot is how our relationship with work has evolved over the years. I think it started off in a lot of ways as a kind of religion. I think for a long time there was this kind of social contract of you work hard, you stay loyal to a company, in return, you get stability, you get a study paycheck.
(34:46):
I think that kind of contract has been eroding for a long time now. And even if you're doing things quote unquote, you can still lose your job, you can still face a lot of instability and that uncertainty, it's hard not to internalize that. I talked with someone recently who was like, who got laid off. She was a federal worker, and she was like, I know that this is not my fault, but I can't help but feel like I'm not good enough and that I did something wrong. It messes with your nervous system. It makes it hard to plan, and it just, it's hard to have a kind of safety that we all are craving. I think something I try to really embrace within my work, but also more broadly, is that security is not something that you can ever guarantee. And it's a really hard lesson, but there is a kind of peace I think, in recognizing that and not chasing after something that frankly doesn't exist. These topics are even more on people's minds these last couple of months, or with Trump's tariffs and all of the financial chaos that's creating, which we can talk more about.
Elise (36:07):
No, but the underlying idea is the same, depending, I mean, no matter what the circumstance, which is that security is not a guarantee. And then even the idea of being at one company for an extended period of time and having them appreciate your contributions and gift you with long-term employment is not something that we can expect.
Reema Khrais (36:27):
Makes you wary.
Elise (36:28):
Yeah. So any final message before we let you go? I wanted to get practical with you, so are there any big takeaways that you want to leave us with to just think about or maybe even do a little bit more digging or research on?
Reema Khrais (36:45):
Yeah, there are a few things. So yeah, I don't want to get too prescriptive, but I think there's some basic things we can do to make sure that we have a strong financial foundation. The first is to create or bolster your emergency fund. You want to have at least three to six months of expenses to buffer against a job loss or medical surprises or whatever. And then you often hear about how you want to keep your savings in a high yield savings account if you can, three or 4% is better than zero. Being mindful about some of your bigger expenses you want to avoid. I think making larger long-term financial commitments while there's so much economic uncertainty. And if you are investing, I know the markets are really crazy right now, but just stay the course. It's tempting to panic and when the market dips, but downturns are just part of the cycle.
(37:42):
And so long-term investing is still one of the smartest things you can do. So just let that investment ride the rollercoaster. But I think generally beyond the practical tips, I think one of the best things we can all do right now is just take a beat. Ask ourselves what do we actually want? Am I in the season where I need to save more? If so, what am I saving for? And get specific. I love this that, I love this idea that's often in the financial community, which is that money is a tool. It's not the goal. It's what helps you get to your goals. And so if you treat money, the endpoint becomes this never ending chase, this aimless pursuit. So if you connect your money habits to things that matter to you, maybe you want to pay off your debt or maybe you want to get a fitness coach or maybe, I don't know, you want to help your parents, but it can give your financial goals real meaning, and it makes you that much more motivated to do them or to save or budget accordingly. And I feel like I've been talking a lot about how there's a lot of fear and shame wrapped up in money, but it can also be about pleasure and creativity and generosity. There is value in spending money on things that light you up. And so I think the goal isn't necessarily austerity. I think it's about alignment.
Elise (39:08):
Yeah.
Reema Khrais (39:09):
Well, Reema, thank you so much. Yeah, no, thank you. I appreciate y'all having me. This was fun.
Doree (39:13):
This was great. Yeah, thank you. And I love your show, so thank you for doing it. Thank you so much. I'm glad you're still doing it.
Reema Khrais (39:19):
Yeah, of course. Thank you.
Doree (39:24):
Alright, well Reema was great.
Elise (39:27):
Thank you. Thank you Reema, for coming on
Doree (39:29):
And kicking off our money month. I love when we have people from your NPR extended universe.
Elise (39:34):
Yeah. I didn't know her prior to her showing up at my 40th birthday party, so I had never met her before, but I had this blowout 40th the weekend before Russia invaded Ukraine. So it was this middle zone between another COVID variant. And we finally came out of that, the latest COVID variant as of February of 2022. And then it was before Russia invaded Ukraine. And there was one magical weekend where people could come out. And that was my 40th birthday weekend. And I had friends fly in from all over the country and one of 'em from DC was like, can I bring my friend Reema? And the theme was like 1994. And so people really dressed up and Reema showed up in a sunflower dress and it's like hair clips and stuff and maybe a little one of those purse backpacks. She was all about
Doree (40:24):
It. Love that.
Elise (40:25):
Yeah, good times. Alright, intention zone. What was last week?
Doree (40:32):
Well, last week was figure out Memorial Day, and I don't think there was anything like earth shattering. Oh, something that I did do without my child that was really fun is I organized a little miniature round robin for one of my tennis teams, and we had eight of us there on two courts and we played fast four format, which is like you just played whoever it gets to four games
Elise (41:01):
First. Oh, fun.
Doree (41:02):
Instead of a full set. And then we rotated partners after that. So everyone got to play with a bunch of other people, and everyone had so much fun and we had bagels after and it was really nice. It was really fun. Just like a nice group of ladies. So that was really nice. So survive Memorial Day weekend this week is my son's last week of school. So yeah, I can't believe kindergarten is almost over. It's so wild. And yeah, just kind of coming to terms with that, I don't know, feels like a big milestone. So I don't know. I don't really have a clear intention, but I'm just kind of wrapping my head around all of that.
Elise (41:54):
Yeah, it's such an overwhelming time of the year, so just be gentle with yourself. Take naps if you can.
Doree (42:00):
Thank you.
Elise (42:01):
Like a disco nap even, because sometimes I'm just like by three or four in the afternoon, whenever I've picked up a kid, I come back and I'm just like, Ugh, I need to close my eyes. So my intention last week due to just being kind of creaky and getting back into exercise was to foam roll again and to stretch. I did take a stretching class, so I guess I achieved my intention, but I just don't like foam rolling and stretching. Generally, I just don't like it. I'll go out for a run and I come back and that's not what I want to do. So I haven't been doing the foam roller as much as I'd like, or I didn't do it daily. I wanted to. So I guess I'm one out of two on my phone rolling and stretching intention this week. This week I want to, oh, this week I'm hosting for Dory. How could I forget this week? I'm really excited. I'll put as my intention to meet some new friends because Dorie's friends are coming over to the backyard for a Dory birthday trivia night, and so I'll get to meet some of Dory's friends, which is going to be super fun.
Doree (43:18):
I'm really excited.
Elise (43:19):
And hopefully Matt too. And Matt's coming, I assume.
Doree (43:21):
Oh yeah, Matt is coming. I know. I never hang out with Matt. I'm so excited to, I saw he had an RSUP. Yeah, I'm really excited. Everyone's really excited. And yeah, Ari, the trivia guy, emailed me that he had finished writing our game, so,
Elise (43:36):
Oh boy. How many rounds are there? Are there a lot of rounds? There's usually, I'm so daunted by
Doree (43:41):
This. I want to say there's usually like seven rounds.
Elise (43:47):
Whoa. Okay. I'm just going to keep drinking. I'm going to drink through it.
Doree (43:49):
The game itself usually lasts a couple hours, but it moves quickly.
Elise (43:55):
All right. All right. I'm excited. It's going to be a good time. And
Doree (43:57):
I know it seems intimidating to be with random people, but it's really fun. I feel like you of all people will be good with it.
Elise (44:05):
I've side note to the listeners, I've been giving Doree so much grief. I've been like, do I have to do this? Not the hosting part, the playing part, but I actually love trivia and
Doree (44:14):
Did it a lot. A lot. I'm going to have a couple friends come and be on my team and I was like, it doesn't work that way. I'm like, they're welcome to come, but they might not be on your team. You don't get to have a ringer. Yeah, you will be with random people. So yeah, so I'm really excited about that. Alright, well that brings us to the end of our show. Thank you all so much for listening. Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone for listening. Talk to you next time. Bye.