Episode 347: Peaking When We're 90 with Debbie Millman
Doree and Elise speak with Debbie Millman about learning how to garden and the steps that led to her latest book, Love Letter to a Garden, which features recipes from her wife Roxane Gay. The design legend and podcaster also shares how she has learned to embrace growth through discomfort, the thrilling yet difficult moments of teaching, and the decision to just start something new, even if it means looking foolish.
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode Ai generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. Happy Spring. Doree.
Doree Shafrir (00:23):
Happy spring. How's it going?
Elise Hu (00:29):
I'm delighted that the weather is warmer and that my parents are in town. They are helping so much, and my mom is an amazing cook.
Doree Shafrir (00:39):
Oh, what a dream.
Elise Hu (00:40):
Yeah, they just landed last night at 9:00 PM but she got up this morning and we have, as you know, we have these new baked goods from Wild Grain.
Doree Shafrir (00:51):
Yes.
Elise Hu (00:52):
Which is one of our sponsors, and I got frozen croissants, and so she baked up those croissants. They're frozen to you just bake from frozen.
Doree Shafrir (01:02):
They're car baked.
Elise Hu (01:03):
Yeah. Yes, yes. And so she baked those croissants and then made breakfast sandwiches like fluffy egg. She used my precious eggs with fluffy egg and bacon and it was really yummy. And then immediately she's like, okay, what are we doing for lunch? What do you want to eat for lunch? So I'm just happy because I'm being fed and I'm being mothered and that feels nice.
Doree Shafrir (01:29):
You're also wearing great red lipstick. Oh
Elise Hu (01:32):
Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I was having to do a, I don't know if you've heard, but all these podcasts are on YouTube now, and so I was a guest on a podcast and they were like, oh, by the way, you need to be ready because the whole episode is going to be on YouTube. And I was like, I prefer to be in my workout clothes and my soft pants.
Doree Shafrir (01:55):
I mean, yeah, this is a whole thing for me. It's like I didn't get into podcasting to also be on video.
Elise Hu (02:04):
Right? Yeah. It's like why is everything about being camera ready? Because the whole joy of working in audio was getting to have a face for
Doree Shafrir (02:12):
Radio. Exactly. It's a little weird.
Elise Hu (02:18):
We do the video clips we have those have on
Doree Shafrir (02:22):
Instagram, we do video clips with our guests on Instagram. You
Elise Hu (02:25):
Can check those
Doree Shafrir (02:26):
Out on Instagram. That's what we do.
Elise Hu (02:29):
That is what we do. How about you? Are you feeling spring? Are you feeling the vibes of the seasonal change?
Doree Shafrir (02:36):
Yeah, it's been nice to be outside and it's not too hot yet, which is nice.
Elise Hu (02:46):
And soon you're going to get some plants,
Doree Shafrir (02:49):
So I'm getting some plants from one of our new advertisers, so we'll see how that goes. Yeah, I would love to do some spring cleaning. We'll see if that actually happens, but it does make me want to sort of refresh.
Elise Hu (03:08):
Yeah. Yeah. I used to move every three to four years and so moving was my spring cleaning
Doree Shafrir (03:16):
Because you
Elise Hu (03:16):
Get rid of so much stuff every time you move. And now I've been in LA for kind of a sustained amount of time and I don't have this moving to help me coal, so who knows what's
Doree Shafrir (03:29):
Piling up. Yeah, I used to move a lot more also. Yeah, actually every three or so years, sometimes even more frequently. When I moved to la, I had been in my New York apartment for three years and then I lived in an apartment in LA for a year and a half, and then Matt and I moved into a house, but then we were in that house for five years, six years or something. And we've been in this house for five years, so yeah, maybe that's the answer. Maybe I need to move more.
Elise Hu (04:10):
Yeah. I really relied on it. I was like, oh, it's time to move. Who knows what treasures I'm going to find that I need to get rid of.
Doree Shafrir (04:19):
That's so true. I remember when I left New York, I had a big tag sale in my apartment and got rid of so much stuff. It was great.
Elise Hu (04:32):
It feels awesome. Yeah. I have these great memories in Texas. When I was living in Texas in my twenties, I had a garage and so we could have yard sales or garage sales, and I was really close with a lot of the photographers, like the cameramen at the TV stations that I worked at. And so they would all come over and just hang out on a Saturday morning and sit outside at the garage sale. And one of 'em had this moneymaking idea beyond selling things at a low low price. He came up with this other moneymaking idea in which he would grill hot dogs out front and just sell hot dogs wrapped in flour tortillas, very Texas for $1 and sometimes our poor man's hot dogs sold better than my stuff. So it became That's so funny. A whole event do this, I dunno, was
Doree Shafrir (05:28):
The Texas version of the hot dog, the sausage people who sell sausages after events in la
Elise Hu (05:36):
Yeah, street meets.
Doree Shafrir (05:38):
Yeah, totally. Maybe that's what we should all get into.
Elise Hu (05:42):
You know what we're having to hustle. The economy is tanking real fast.
Doree Shafrir (05:46):
It is. It's tanking as we speak. I feel numb. I feel numb to it. You know what I mean?
Elise Hu (05:52):
It's so dumb. It's like the dumbest decisions. But then I remembered that our president is a man who has once bankrupted a casino. How do you lose money running a casino?
Doree Shafrir (06:07):
It's true. So of
Elise Hu (06:07):
Course he was handed a great economy and we are watching this happen.
Doree Shafrir (06:13):
Well, before we get to our guests, I just want to remind everyone that our previous guest, Rachel Goodwin, has all of her recommendations on our shop. My, so that is shop my us slash Forever three five and she has a bunch of makeup recommendations, beauty tools, just a lot of cool stuff on there. We're also doing a listener survey right now, and you can find that link in our show notes. It is in the link in our Instagram bio. It is also on our website. So if you could take a few minutes and just fill that out, that would be super helpful for us. And again, our website is forever 35 podcast.com. There's also links to everything we mention on the show. Our Instagram is Forever 35 podcast. You can sign up for our newsletter at forever 35 podcast com slash newsletter and we love to hear from you. Call or text us at seven eight one five nine one zero three nine and email us at Forever five Podcast at gmail com. Our guest today is someone I've admired and followed for years and it was such a delight to get to talk to her.
Elise Hu (07:24):
Yes, we are so excited to share our conversation today with Debbie Millman. Debbie Millman has been named one of the most creative people in business by Fast Company and one of the most influential designers working today by G-D-U-S-A. Millman is an illustrator, author, educator, and host of the podcast, one of the OG podcasts, design Matters, broadcasting for 20 years. Design Matters is not only one of the first but longest running podcasts in the world. The show won a Cooper Hewitt National Design Award in 2011 and Apple has named it one of their all time favorites three times. Debbie is a prolific author, so I think this is her eighth book that she's talking about with us today. It's called A Love Letter to a Garden, and it features recipes from her partner, Roxanne Gay, also a prolific writer and thinker. And just a couple weeks ago, the two of them were announced as the new owners of the Rumpus, a website that our listeners probably know. So that's really exciting that they're going to be running the rumpus Super. And Debbie, I just feel like, yeah, given the state of the world today and the kind of state of our psyches, it was a balm to talk with Debbie and just hear her wisdom and hear her sense of hope for the world. And we're just so excited that you get to listen in.
Doree Shafrir (08:53):
Alright, here is Debbie. Debbie, welcome to Forever35. We are really happy to have you on the show. Thank
Debbie Millman (09:02):
You. Very, very, very happy to be here.
Doree Shafrir (09:05):
Yeah. We're wondering if there's anything you are currently doing that you would consider self-care? Well,
Debbie Millman (09:13):
I think the biggest initiative that I have that would fall under self care is sleeping. Roxanne, my wife thinks that I'm an Olympic champion sleeper
(09:28)
And I would consider myself a sleep aholic. I love sleeping. It's like one of my top three favorite things and I try to sleep as much as I can. I don't get as much sleep as I want on the weekdays, but on the weekends I do what my father termed pound the pillows. I'm notorious in my family for being a sleeper, like everyone knows I'm a night owl. So it is something that if I were not a night owl, I don't know that people would be as aware of my sleeping habits because I would go to sleep early and then have a long sleep that people wouldn't necessarily notice. It would just be a little bit after they wake up. But often, especially on the weekends, especially when I'm visiting people, I'll go way close to noon.
Elise Hu (10:33):
Wow.
Debbie Millman (10:34):
Wow. That is impressive. I thought you would think so. And then I have other littler things that I do, but no less important. I had to have a hip replacement two years ago, and the primary reasons I had to have the replacement were genetic. Both my mother and my father have had hip replacements, but also according to my doctor, 40 years of walking on concrete, because I moved to Manhattan in 1983 and I'm a big walker. I walk a lot and I tend to walk most places. And so ultimately it caused a lot of bone on bone situations. I thought walking is too important to me. I really have to take the rehab seriously so that I could eventually go back to my walking practice. And I ended up finding a physical therapist that has transformed my life,
Elise Hu (11:32):
Pt.
Debbie Millman (11:34):
So he does both PT and weight training and personal training, and I'd never ever done anything like that before. My soul form of exercise was walking and maybe pacing, and I love it when I crack myself up. I always tell my students, if you laugh at my jokes, you'll get extra credit. But in any case, I just started to feel differently in my body for the first time in my life. And so I have been now regularly working out two or three times a week for the last two years. That's great.
Doree Shafrir (12:13):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (12:24):
Well, Debbie, since this show is about taking care of ourselves and you are a designer at heart, we'd love to know what you've learned in your visual arts practice or just from talking to the hundreds and hundreds of people you've spoken to for your podcast over the years about how best to take care of ourselves and one another during these really kind of dark and chilling times that we're
Debbie Millman (12:49):
Yeah, I mean, this is just incomprehensible to me that we're living in a time that we're living in right now. One of the other things that I do, not necessarily for self care, but self entertainment is read. I'm a big reader.
Doree Shafrir (13:07):
Reader
Debbie Millman (13:08):
And the fact that we're looking at our library associations being either defunded or closed, the Department of Education, I also teach for a living. All of these things are really, really disturbing. One of the ways in which design has played a big part in my self-care is being able to design environments for myself that are more like little cocoons for my psyche than anything else. I mean, I have spent a lot of my life working really, really, really hard and decided about 15 years ago that I would finally invest in creating a scenario around me, a design scenario around me that really reflected my taste, the things that I had coveted for a very long time, different pieces of furniture that I loved and never thought I'd have the opportunity to be able to acquire. I'm also a very big art collector, and I've been collecting art since I had an extra 5 cents in my pocket. So that's really now since I would say 1992, I've been collecting art. And so everything around me, I mean not to sort of be cliched about it, but everything around me really does spark some joy and some real sense of peace. First and foremost, some of the forefathers and mothers of art with text, obviously Jenny Holzer, Barbara Krueger,
(14:54)
Lawrence Wiener, Robert Barry, Joseph Caso, all people that use text primarily in their artwork. But then I also really spent a lot of time looking for art that was created by non-text oriented artists, but also have been used. And so I have pieces by Richard Prince, Jean-Michel Basquiat, Carol Schneeman, Ida AP Bru. I'm just trying to think off the top of my head. Marina Abramovich, ed Rouche. And most of these are prints. I don't want to give anybody the impression that I am an art impresario. Most of what I get is at auction or think real finds that I discover on eBay. But this is something that's been a big, big part of my life for a very long time.
Elise Hu (15:54):
Well, speaking of art with words, your new book, which I think is your
Debbie Millman (15:58):
Oh, yes, yes.
Elise Hu (15:59):
It's your eighth book,
Debbie Millman (15:59):
Is that right? It's, it's my eighth
Elise Hu (16:01):
Book. Wow. So prolific. It is called Love Letter to a Garden. We loved it.
Doree Shafrir (16:08):
We both loved it so much.
Debbie Millman (16:10):
Oh, thank you. This means so much to me. I'm so afraid of what the reaction is going to be.
Elise Hu (16:15):
No. So listeners, it is written and illustrated beautifully and vibrantly by Debbie and features recipes from your wife, Roxanne Gay, and it's ostensibly about your garden or gardening, but it's really about you and your life and your community and what it means to be alive. Tell us why you wanted to make this and share it.
Debbie Millman (16:41):
Well, it wasn't something that I'd planned, actually. It was one of those little gifts from heaven that faller lap. And I was approached by an editor at Timber Press, which is the gardening imprint at Ette.
(16:56)
And they had seen two previous pieces that I had created with visual storytelling in this method of writing on images. And one was some work that I did for the TED Conference back during Covid when the TED Conference was completely online. And that year I had, my wife and I decided to spend as much of Covid as we could on the west coast where Roxanne has a house. And she had that house before we met and got married, and I had mine here in New York City. And so we've been living in both going back and forth as often as we can. But during Covid, we thought since we have a car there, since there's a lot more sky there, we could get out more. We would spend our time sequestering there. And I had a lot of time on my hands and started gardening and started doing visual stories on my Instagram feed about my experiences with this new garden in this new environment. And I was asked by my friends at Ted to do three interstitials that would be shown in between the talks. And I did a visual story on traveling, which we obviously couldn't do. Visual story on storytelling and a visual story on gardening. And so this editor had seen that. And then she also saw a piece that I did for a FAR magazine, which was a visual story that I created when Roxanne and I took an expedition to Antarctica
Doree Shafrir (18:34):
In
Debbie Millman (18:34):
Search of the total eclipse of the sun back in 2021, which we were unsuccessful in seeing because of cloud cover, but still had just a transformative time. And so she saw those two pieces and she reached out and asked if I'd be interested in writing a visual storybook, so to speak about gardening.
(18:55)
And I kind of fell off my chair when I read the email because I am by no means an expert gardener and told her that and said, if I was to write a book about gardening, gardeners would laugh me off the planet because I'm not going to tell people how to rescue a dead plant. That's just never going to happen. If anything, I can show a collection of my dead plants. Gardening has always been, as an adult, it's always been some part of my life because I have been very lucky to have outdoor space in the three different apartments that I've lived in. But all of my efforts up until the last couple of years have been dismal at best, really flat out failures. And so the book is a bit of a journey through those failures to some modicum of success. And when I say modicum, I mean being able to make a salad with things that I've grown myself.
Doree Shafrir (19:53):
I mean, this might just be a statement about my own lack of gardening skills, but I did not read this as a book about all of your failures. I read this as I was very impressed by all of the plants and flowers and food, fruit, vegetables. Oh, thank you. That you had grown. So don't sell yourself short.
Debbie Millman (20:18):
Well, it's the book, the sort of stories about my own gardening attempt starts in the early nineties, and I had an apartment, a really wonderful apartment in the West Village with a deck, and I decided I was going to do it up and bought lots of container plants, but it was a very shady deck with virtually no sun, maybe a little bit of dappled sun. And I went ahead and bought roses. I thought they were beautiful, and within a few weeks they all died because roses need sun. So it was a slow journey to being able to actually keep something alive, let's put it that way. Yeah,
Doree Shafrir (20:57):
Fair enough. Let's talk about how as you get older, the idea of taking up something new becomes a little bit more intimidating, and you write about, as you've gotten older, you've gotten less comfortable doing things you weren't good at. And I'm wondering, we talk a lot about this too. I took up tennis in my forties and my forties. I'm really not great at it, but I love it. And so I'm just sort of wondering what value you have found in being just okay at things.
Debbie Millman (21:37):
It's funny that you asked me that question because now that I review that statement in the book, I realize I've never been comfortable doing things I dunno how to do. It's not something that's just a midlife thing, definitely. No, it's just more profound now. It's much more profound than it was. But I'm looking back at the sort of trajectory of my life, and I've never been someone that was like, woo-hoo, try something new.
Doree Shafrir (22:07):
It's
Debbie Millman (22:07):
Always been like, oh, that's new. How do I approach it? How do I do it? I need somebody to show me visually how it's done so I can mimic it. So I think it's just as I've gotten older, it's become more profound, much more of a, oh, I'm a middle-aged woman. I don't want to look awkward. I don't want to look silly. I don't want to humiliate myself. And especially because I take so much pride in trying to do things well, the idea that I do something poorly or do something that humiliates me feels like it would bruise my ego too much. But in order to learn something new, you really have to put yourself in that position. And I think learning to be a better gardener actually has helped me understand that humans don't ever approach things that they don't know how to do doing them well. It's very few people that come out as prodigies, as musical prodigies or athletic prodigies. We are born essentially not knowing how to really do anything. We can't take care of ourselves.
Elise Hu (23:20):
And they say that babies grow so fast because they're so willing to fail again and again. Yeah,
Debbie Millman (23:25):
Absolutely. And then something happens probably sometime in third or fourth grade where we begin to sense the world around us in a different way, and suddenly we become afraid of judgment. That's when a lot of people actually stop drawing, even though we're really all born with some spark of creativity. But again, because we start comparing, because we start contrasting, we suddenly feel like we're not good enough. And it's so interesting, I teach undergrad and grad students and the undergrads already as seniors are beginning to edit the possibilities of what they can and can't do because they feel like they might not be as good as some of their peers, or they might not be as good as they want to be. And I'm like, you're never going to be younger or more beautiful.
(24:11)
Go after what you want now because the older you get, the harder it's going to be to pivot and make a big change. There's no reason for you not to go after what you want right at this minute. And I talk to them a lot about how we have to learn how to be good at everything. They're all like, well, I'll do it when I have more confidence. I'm like, when do you think that's going to be? Because unless you actually try it and do it and step into the courage it requires, you're never going to manifest confidence. Confidence comes after the successful repetition of any endeavor that you're initially really scared to do. And so I hope that that sort of gives them some sense that they can't wait for the confidence they have to try to muster up the courage to then step into that unknown thing. So cobbler in his shoes.
Elise Hu (25:08):
Totally. Totally. And I love talking with you, Debbie, about growth and change. You and I first connected at the start of C and got to know each other in that conversation about career pivots,
Doree Shafrir (25:20):
And
Elise Hu (25:21):
That was really timely because so many of us did wind up pivoting in one way or the other during Covid. Something that you said that stuck with me, and I think I brought this up with you at dinner a few years ago too, was that you learned from David Lee Roth, this whole idea of just wanting to peak when you're 90 and then die. And I just want you to know that I've completely adopted that kind of mo, and it's just an operating principle for me now that we can just keep expanding, keep learning, and keep growing until the point we can't.
Debbie Millman (25:58):
Right. And that changed my life too. I mean, basically for those that might not have heard it before, what I said to Elise was something that David said to me in sort of a pensive moment when I asked him what it felt like to be one of the coolest dudes on the planet in 1984 when Jump was the most popular single and the most popular video. And 1984 was the most popular album and the most popular tour and so forth, or among them. Among them. And he said, you have to be really careful when you get to the top of the mountain, the tippy top, there's only one direction to go. It's always cold. You're often alone. And it really, I've been trying to run up that mountain my whole life, and I'll run up a bit and then I'll get tired, and then I'll stop, and then I'll go backwards a bit. But it suddenly occurred to me I don't want to peak and then have a good chunk of my life to look back and say, that's when I did my best work. I don't want to do my best work till the day before I die.
(27:03)
And yeah, it just was profoundly impactful to me, and I think about it probably almost every day, and I share this with all my students, and they also, I think are really moved by the notion that you can take slow steps up the mountain and not everybody's going to get there at the same time.
Elise Hu (27:23):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Debbie Millman (27:24):
Okay,
Elise Hu (27:25):
Let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree Shafrir (27:34):
You've brought up your students a few times. I feel like there's been a lot of conversation lately about this generation of college students as their lives were disrupted during Covid and everything has not gone great for 'em. And I'm wondering how that manifests in the classroom and what you're sort of seeing these days among your students.
Debbie Millman (27:59):
Well, part of the reason I teach is to stay connected to young people and to be aware of what they're thinking about and what they're doing. I am very fortunate that I teach at a school where I am face to face with some of the young great talent that is going to make a difference. And for me to be able to see them in that sort of infancy and then watch as they grow and develop and create their own names for themselves and a body of work that's just outstanding. I mean, I just feel so much thrill at that opportunity. And Pablo Del Can and Zong Zoo and Santiago Kara and Joe Holier and the Latham Twins. I mean, there's so many people that I've taught that I can look at and say, wow, wow, wow, wow. So those are the undergrads. Then for the grads, I run a graduate program in branding, and it's been 15 years. So some of the people we taught in year one or year two or year three are now running branding consultancies
Doree Shafrir (29:10):
And
Debbie Millman (29:10):
Are the people at the forefront of design and branding practices and pedagogy and trends and scholarship. And that to me is also really thrilling. However, since Covid, I have to tell you, it has been really, really challenging. This is the first year that I'm teaching undergrads that haven't been impacted by Covid, and there is a difference. They're much more engaged, they're much more participatory.
Doree Shafrir (29:41):
You mean their college years have not been impacted by Covid?
Debbie Millman (29:45):
Yes. Yes. Got it. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, that was not clear. But I have to say, there are so many more mental health issues, so many more. I've had students with mental health issues in the last four of my graduate programs
Elise Hu (30:04):
Every year. This is actually part of my soapbox now five years on from Covid that we went through this trauma together collectively, and we might be suffering from some sort of collective posttraumatic stress and then just haven't really reckoned with it. And that once the vaccines were pretty universal and restrictions were lifted, people just went back outside. They filled their calendars up, and we returned to that grind, that capitalistic way of life without properly reflecting. Which leads me to my question, Debbie, because it's now been five years. I'm curious how you've metabolized and how you've been thinking about that period that we went through and are arguably still feeling the effects of.
Debbie Millman (30:53):
Yeah. Well, from a perspective of teaching, what I can say is I teach a one year graduate program. It's an accelerated program. And so 2020 started just like any other typical academic year in September of 2019. And I had a group of really, really exceptional students that year. Every now and then you get superstars, like everybody's a superstar. And that was that class.
(31:21)
And then on March 15th, we went online instantly, and I probably took the students online too quickly, but I was so afraid that they were going to miss out on something. I had to learn canvas and zoom and slack all at the same time. I'm not technologically oriented at all. I was spending afternoons projectile crying because I couldn't master any of it in the speed that I felt like I should talk about embracing change. But we all didn't know what was happening at that time. I remember saying, oh, we'll be back in person by thesis, which would be the summer.
(32:00)
And I think those first six months, everybody was just trying to create some sense of normalcy or vibrancy that they could. And those students graduated and did a spectacular job despite that major pivot. But from there on in 2021, the class of 21, 22, 23, 24, every single year there's been significant mental health issues. And in now class of 2025, there is already, and I have really had to rely on the different departments within the school to help me learn how to best work with students that need different resources that I have never really been exposed to. I've been in therapy for a really long time, but I would never say that I'm qualified to be a therapist. Sure,
Elise Hu (32:59):
Sure.
Debbie Millman (33:00):
I think I'd like to think I'm a good listener from 20 years of podcasting, but I'm not qualified to give mental health advice. And that's been hard to be in a situation where you are witnessing somebody else's trauma, somebody else's grief. It's hard not to be able to just hold out your hand and help them. And as for me personally, I remember at the end of Covid, I was very, very lucky with Covid. I didn't get Covid till after Covid, really back when we were out in the world,
(33:33)
I had just gotten engaged. We were living together for the first time. Everybody was like, how are you guys doing your first time living together? What's it? And we were like, it's glorious. We're together every day. We're not traveling. We're not stressed out. We're having dinner every night together. We're cooking. And we watched 10 seasons of Colombo. I mean, we were the lucky ones that thought We're going to change our lives after Covid. We're going to not. We did for maybe three weeks. And then it was just back to the grind, the same old grind. And I wish we had learned more from that experience in being able to calibrate our energies in new ways and our schedules and our commitments and our obligations, and not saying yes so much because we feel like if we don't say yes, we're never going to be able to say yes again and things that we grapple with all the time.
Elise Hu (34:33):
Well, you mentioned your fiance who is now your wife because you all eloped. We did. And Roxanne actually has recipes that are part of the book. So I'm just curious, what was it like collaborating with your partner?
Debbie Millman (34:49):
We were planning a big wedding. Roxanne's dad, she's the only daughter, and he was really looking forward to walking his daughter down the aisle, but that didn't happen. They saw our wedding, which was at an Encino strip mall in California with a Russian clergy person, which was just really a civil service. We were standing under apa. Our families were watching via FaceTime. Back then, we were still wearing gloves, remember? It was gloves
Elise Hu (35:22):
And masks. Yes, gloves.
Debbie Millman (35:25):
So that was quite a glamorous look. And we had this little outdoor meal barbecue with some of our friends so we could be safely distanced from each other and never had the big wedding, which was fine, which was absolutely fine because I think we look back on it now with a lot of joy that we were able to do what we did when we did. But because I was doing so much gardening and because Roxanne was doing so much cooking, she's a wonderful cook, not, I make two dishes. She makes everything. She bakes, she cooks, she creates recipes. And so I was coming in with big giant caers full of tomatoes and lemon cucumbers and lemons, and she was able to just make all of these one strawberries, blueberries. It was so plentiful that year. And so she started making things with the things that I was growing mostly. So we didn't waste them. We weren't intending at that time to ever publish her recipes. It was just purely for the joy of it. And then it turned into something that we could share with the world.
Doree Shafrir (36:38):
Love it. Love it.
Debbie Millman (36:39):
My favorite recipe of hers is the strawberry tall cake. She made a tall cake instead of a short cake. And I just love it because the slices are that much bigger
Doree Shafrir (36:49):
Now. All the recipes look so good and so fresh and so bountiful, and I was just like, oh, yes. Sounds great. You also mentioned your podcast and you are one of the OG podcasters. I'm curious what you kind of make of the podcasting landscape today.
Debbie Millman (37:12):
What do I make of the landscape? Well, there certainly are a lot to listen to. That's true. When I started, I remember the first time I made the, what was then the iTunes podcast chart. There was one chart for all the podcasts, and I was one month. I was in the fifties and one month I was in the eighties, but there were like a hundred podcasts. So it was all relative because there literally were very, very few podcasts at that time. I never, ever expected to still be doing this little show 20 years later. It's really been this extraordinary journey. It's become one of the central pieces of my life. The conversations that I've had have been, I would like to thank are just beautiful and soulful. As far as the podcast scene, what do I think of the scene? I think it's become very competitive. I think it's become harder and harder to make a living doing it. I've always been very fortunate that it hasn't been my sole source of income, and I'm very glad about that. And I think it's just like anything else. You have great people doing it, amazing people doing it like you guys. And I'm not blowing smoke up your skirts. You both the best thank you. And then there are folks that are just doing it for the ability to do it. And that's fine too. Everybody can do what they want to do and make what they want to make. I'd like to think that I'm contributing something meaningful, and I'll do it until I stop thinking that.
Elise Hu (38:55):
No, you absolutely are. And I mean the David Lee Roth idea alone continues to be transformative to me on a daily basis. So I guess that's the last question that I have for you, Debbie, which is last time we talked for a podcast, there was that little gem. So I'm curious who else you've spoken to or what other little gems or nuggets of wisdom that you recall from your many conversations that you could share with us to just reflect on and think about?
Debbie Millman (39:29):
Well, I think, believe it or not, I interviewed somebody on Saturday that said something to me that's making me reconsider my future, believe it or not.
Elise Hu (39:42):
Wow.
Debbie Millman (39:43):
So there have been a couple of things in my life that I've regretted. Sure. One is that I don't speak another language. And a year and a half ago I was lamenting this fact with Roxanne and her family. It was Christmas time, and Roxanne's niece said, you should try Duolingo. That's how I'm learning Spanish. And I was like, what's ua? What ua? Lippa? I didn't know what she was talking about. And so then I tried it, and I've been learning French ever since. And Roxanne's whole family speaks fluent French. And so I wanted to know what they were talking about when I couldn't understand, and I'm beginning to learn. But the other thing that I have really regretted, and this is a big regret, is that I don't know how to play the piano and I dunno how to read music. So on Saturday, I interviewed John Batiste. John Batiste not only is an incredible musician and probably one of the greatest musicians working today.
Elise Hu (40:48):
Yeah.
Debbie Millman (40:49):
He comes from a musical legacy. His entire family, his uncles, his father, his grandfather, they are the Batiste family in New Orleans, is one of the great family legacies in music of all time. And so we were talking about his family. We were talking about his trajectory learning music, and he didn't actually learn how to read music until he went to Julliard, which was very surprising to me. But what really, really stopped me was his telling me that his mother is learning how to play the piano. His mother and his mother is probably my age. And if she can learn the piano surrounded by some of the world's greatest musicians and go through that learning curve of knowing how far she needs to be to which I don't even think she's thinking about, that's only something that I would be thinking about that it's time to stop thinking that way. And it's time to just start because I don't want to be on my deathbed thinking I could have been a pianist. So yeah, I'm looking into finding a teacher and starting piano lessons in my sixties.
Elise Hu (42:04):
You absolutely can be a pianist.
Debbie Millman (42:07):
So I think anybody can start something whenever they want to. You just need to start and stop putting all these obstacles in your own way to prevent you from worrying about looking foolish. Let's look foolish. Just let's all look foolish together. Totally.
Doree Shafrir (42:25):
I took piano as a kid and then took it back up during Covid and took lessons again for two or three years, and it was really, really, really fun. So I'm really excited that you're about to start on this journey.
Debbie Millman (42:39):
Yeah. How do you play now? Do you feel like you can play a song?
Doree Shafrir (42:44):
Yeah, I play. I mean, I always played classical music, so playing pop music. I tried playing pop music. My husband plays guitar, and he never understood that I needed sheet music in front of me to play something. He thought I should be able to just sit down and play. And I was like, no, no. But yeah, I stopped taking lessons partly because of the cost. And then also when I started playing the piano again, we had just gotten a digital piano with weighted keys, which are great, and don't take up that much space. And I was just getting to the point where I was like, I kind of really just want a real piano. And so I don't know. In my mind it was like, well, if I can't have a real piano, there's no point in continue. Which of course doesn't make any sense. But I was getting a little frustrated with just having the digital piano. And then I was like, well, I'll just put this on hold until we can get a real piano. And then I just haven't gone back to it. That's my story. So yeah,
Debbie Millman (43:49):
I remember interviewing, I don't remember who it was. I think it was Nico Muley who didn't have a piano when he was growing up and learned how to play with a paper piano that he made.
Doree Shafrir (44:01):
Wow.
Debbie Millman (44:01):
Oh my gosh. That's so
Doree Shafrir (44:02):
Cool. Wow. That's amazing. That's really cool.
Debbie Millman (44:05):
That's incredible. There's always that option for me too. Totally.
Elise Hu (44:08):
Lots of options here. And either you of are invited to my home in LA at any time to play my piano because I often feel it's so neglected. I still have my piano from when I was five. And it's rush. My gosh. Yeah, it's moved around with me. How cool. It's a parlor brand.
Debbie Millman (44:24):
Oh, let's go a piano club so you can
Elise Hu (44:25):
Come over and play. I always feel like it needs more come practice needs more love. Yes. Anytime.
Debbie Millman (44:30):
I just want to say that it's been so much fun. You guys are two of my heroes. Elise, you know this already. I've told you before. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate you doing this with me. I really, and for me, oh my gosh, it means so much.
Elise Hu (44:44):
Well, Debbie Millman, thank you so much. And just real quick, tell listeners how they can find you.
Debbie Millman (44:49):
I can be found online pretty much everywhere at Debbie Millman, and my website is also debbie millman.com.
Elise Hu (44:56):
Okay. Thanks so much. Thank you.
Doree Shafrir (45:01):
Well, Debbie was delightful. Just full of wisdom. She's full of wisdom. She's such an interesting person. She's had such an interesting life and yeah, I was really glad we got to talk to her. Now we are in the intention zone. Elise, did you go on any longer jogs?
Elise Hu (45:20):
I did. I did. I went, yeah. I feel so good about it too. Maybe that's why I feel better. I've just been touching grass. Maybe there is something to this. Thanks. Walt Whitman. Yeah, so I have been running outside and spending more time in nature, and it really has kind of helped center me, I think. So I'm glad that I suggested that as a, or I made that an intention two weeks in a row, because the first week I didn't exactly do so well. So the second week, and then this week I have my parents here. They're not going to be here as long as they usually are. They're usually here for a month. And this time they're only here for a couple of weeks. So I just want to maximize my time with my mom and dad and their time with the kids. So I think my intentional will just be like family time.
Doree Shafrir (46:11):
That's awesome. What about you? Well, last week we were going to Big Bear to spend some time with one of Henry's friends at their family's cabin. And it was a great trip. In the beginning. Henry had a minor meltdown and we sort of reset and he was fine, and he had so much fun, and he was like, I want to come back for a week. And
(46:41)
I was like, what do you think we'll do here for a week? And he was like, play with my friend. It was just really nice, I think, for him to have some sort of unstructured blocks of free time to play. And he basically had his first sleepover. Yes, we were in the house, but he shared a room with his friend and he was like, yeah, we woke up in the morning and just talked. I was like, it was really cute. This week I am thinking about spring cleaning. I'm also also recently been like, I am feeling, and this is maybe a topic for another episode, but I'm just feeling so burnt out and I realize I've not had an actual vacation in years.
Elise Hu (47:30):
Oh my gosh.
Doree Shafrir (47:33):
And I don't see one in my future, really, in my near future. So I'm trying to think of what can I do to take a break? Because burnout is, I'm feeling a little burnt out and blah. So yeah. I'm also thinking about spring cleaning. So both of those things,
Elise Hu (48:05):
I feel like our listener community can help with this staycations or ways to kind of reset after feeling burned out. What have you all done?
Doree Shafrir (48:15):
Yeah,
Elise Hu (48:15):
Call in. Let us know.
Doree Shafrir (48:17):
Let us know. All right. Well, Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partners Acast. Thanks for listening, everybody. Talk to you next time. Bye.