Episode 345: Gossip From The Past with Nichole Hill
Doree and Elise speak with Nichole Hill, the award-winning showrunner, audio producer and creator of the independent podcast Our Ancestors Were Messy. They discuss the history of Black newspapers, the lasting power of written gossip, why some of Nichole’s best memories of her dad are as a passenger in his car, and the reminder that it’s okay to be frivolous and romantic AND contribute to change.
Mentioned in this Episode
Elise's NPR story on Abel Rivera
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode Ai generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. Happy Monday to everyone.
Doree Shafrir (00:24):
Happy Monday. Elise, how's it going?
Elise Hu (00:28):
I'm still drunk on the vibes of the LA Marathon. I'm feeling really great. Actually, this morning I went running and I usually kind of wh the whole time because I don't actually enjoy exercising, and one of the things that gets me through it is just complaining about exercising. But today I was with my friend Amanda, who I run with every Thursday morning, and I was like, you know what? I was alongside those kids, 3000 plus LA middle and high school kids ran the LA Marathon and I was alongside them because we're following one of them for my ongoing post-fire documentary project, but also I was doing an NPR piece on him, and I just felt so inspired. I felt so inspired by that that this morning was one of the first mornings I went running and I was like, we can do it. We can finish. Granted really cute. This is a 25 minute, two and a half mile run. It's not like it's not a marathon or anything close to a marathon, but even still I was just like, oh, those kids could do it. I'm going to do this.
Doree Shafrir (01:36):
Amazing.
Elise Hu (01:37):
How's it going over there?
Doree Shafrir (01:38):
We are recording this the day before my in-laws get to town and when this airs, they will have been here for three days. So I'm excited for Henry to get to hang with his other grandparents.
Elise Hu (01:54):
Where are they coming in town from? Remind me
Doree Shafrir (01:56):
From Florida. Florida. Okay. Yeah, so we'll see. I think it'll be nice. They haven't been here in a while, so they haven't seen Henry in real life years. Oh my
Elise Hu (02:11):
Gosh.
Doree Shafrir (02:12):
Yeah, I think it'll be good.
Elise Hu (02:14):
So are they staying with you? Are they in town for a specific reason besides hanging with your family? Is it just to visit you and your family?
Doree Shafrir (02:24):
No, it's just to visit. Yeah. I think it was just like a It's been a
Elise Hu (02:30):
While.
Doree Shafrir (02:31):
Yeah, it's been a while. It's a convenient time. Yeah. That's kind of everything that's going on here. We're sort of frantically trying to get the house in order right now.
Elise Hu (02:41):
Do you have anything exciting planned? Are you going to take them to any particular restaurants or,
Doree Shafrir (02:45):
Well, what I am excited about that they will be able to go to one of Henry's baseball games.
Elise Hu (02:52):
Oh, yay.
Doree Shafrir (02:53):
And he is really excited for them to come to one of his baseball games. We asked him what he wanted to do with them while they were here and he was like, I want them to come to my baseball game. And then he wanted to play, there's this card game, this Disney card game called I found it, EYE, and it's like it's all these cards with scenes and you have to find specific objects on the card. So it'll be like, oh cool, find a dog collar, find a rope, find whatever. And he's like, I want to play. I found it with That's so good. We were like, great, great plan. Okay. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah. He also said to me the other day, in the car Mama just out of the blue, he goes, mama, remember when we got those really good sandwiches at Sprouts
Elise Hu (03:53):
Sprout? I Sprouts is, I don't know about this.
Doree Shafrir (03:55):
Sprouts is a grocery store. It's like a cross between Trader Joe's and Whole Foods. For people who are not familiar, it's cheaper than Whole Foods. We didn't have it on the East coast, so this was a new thing for me when I moved to California. So that's why I'm just sort of explaining it. But the sandwiches that you get at their deli counter are $6. They're not fancy sandwiches. And we also got them six months ago. We got them a long time ago and he just brought them up out of the blue. So it was between that and the desire to play, I found it with his grandparents. I was like, oh yeah, I don't need to go crazy.
Elise Hu (04:35):
No,
Doree Shafrir (04:35):
Those sandwich, he's happy with a $6 sandwich from Sprouts that has Turkey cheese and mayo on it and playing a card game with his grandparents. I don't need to make this a huge thing. You know what I mean?
Elise Hu (04:51):
But clearly those sandwiches made an impression.
Doree Shafrir (04:55):
He was like, mama, and remember they had never made your sandwich before because it was before Thanksgiving and they had some Thanksgiving special Thanksgiving sandwich
(05:07)
On a poster board or whatever. And I was like, oh, that looks good. And the two people behind the counter were like, wait, what goes in that sandwich? They figured it out. Yeah. Really made an impression. So it was just a reminder to me that I don't need to, I think I tend to try to overcomplicate things and be like, every day we need to take them to the Santa Monica Pier and then go to the Natural History Museum and then we'll go to Disneyland. Just a million different things. And I was like, okay, I can just take it down a notch. It's fine. So I'm excited and I think he's going to have fun. I think we'll all have fun. Sweet. What's going on with me? I'll report back. Yeah.
Elise Hu (05:57):
Yeah. I have my parents coming in for a whole month starting, oh my gosh, I guess in about a week or so. And this is their time in the States where I like them to be here around this time. And then really, I like them to be here in May because that's when there's so many of the sports games and the company show and the choir show and the musicals and all those things. And my mom is a great photographer and so she can capture those better than I can. But also it's just so helpful to have more bodies during that period. But every time I ask my mom like, Hey, and she was an artist, a fine artist, and so there's great museums in LA and so I'm always like, let's go check some stuff out. And she's like, so she doesn't really care about doing touristy stuff because this is kind of one of their homes. But I would like to, I feel like there's a lot of stuff that I would love to see. I haven't been to LACMA in a while. And I also really like that one museum that's near UCLA, the Hammer Museum. I think it's more manageable small. So I love going to see art with my mom. I'm just saying that my parents are less interested in having much of a calendar. They're here to hang with the kids and help me with my garden.
Doree Shafrir (07:23):
Totally. That's kind of where I'm at too.
Elise Hu (07:25):
Yeah.
Doree Shafrir (07:26):
Alright, well Elise, should we introduce our guest?
Elise Hu (07:32):
Yeah. Because speaking of family and ancestors today we have on just a delightful podcaster and talent named Nicole Hill. If you don't know Nicole, you soon Will and you're going to love her. She's an award-winning show runner, audio producer and the creator of the independent podcasts. Our ancestors Were messy. A 2024 official Tribeca audio selection and the Secret Adventures of Black People. Her other work includes show running for I Am America with Tracy Ellis Ross, Tanya Mosley of Fresh Airs podcast. She has a name, Vox Iss, land of the Giants Dating Games and The Cube and PR X's Second Sunday, which was named one of the Atlantic's best podcasts of 2024. Nicole knows audio. She's an amazing storyteller. She lives in Los Angeles like us, and we are so excited to share this conversation with you.
Doree Shafrir (08:28):
She was so cool. And before we get to Nicole, just want to remind everyone you can visit our website forever 35 podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mention here on the show. We are on Instagram at Forever 35 podcast on our Patreon, which is at patreon.com/forever three five. We have tons of bonus content, we have a subscriber chat, we have a lot going on over there, so check that out. Our favorite products are at shop my US slash fe five. We have our newsletter at February five podcast com slash newsletter. And if you would like to reach us, call or text us at five nine one zero three nine zero and email us at podcast gmail com. And here is Nichole. Nichole, welcome to Forever 35. We are so happy to have you on the show.
Nichole Hill (09:19):
Oh, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Doree Shafrir (09:22):
Yay. Well, as you know, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So is there something that you're doing right now that you would consider self-care?
Nichole Hill (09:33):
I usually, I'll say I go for walks. I'm a big walker, big believer in a nice long walk. But honestly right now a thing that I do that I always do when I'm feeling stressed and anxious about the state of things is that I watch old episodes of General Hospital, specifically 2002 to 2003. It's my favorite storylines, Jason and Courtney, Sonny and Carly. We got a lot of really great super couples going. So I just get in bed, just hit play on an old episode and just like imagine I don't have to worry about anything until my mom gets home.
Elise Hu (10:10):
Oh my gosh. So you are now an audio maestro, but we did our research and learned that really just a few years ago you were in a totally different field in what you thought was kind of a dream job for you and then lost that job and pivoted into audio. So we want to hear about your pivot and how you wound up here.
Nichole Hill (10:31):
Oh my gosh. Okay. Research. All right. Yes. So prior to audio, I would say my career started doing nonprofit work. I was in a program called AmeriCorps. So I got to travel all over the country and every two months I lived in a different community. I did a different service project for two years. So I was like, not only was it amazing, I was just inundated with stories and I loved it so much.
(10:56)
And then I started working in education reform for various nonprofits and I was like, this is great work, but also I need stories. You all tell me your life story right now. And all my coworkers were like, this is a lot. And so they introduced me to this American life and they were like, listen to this. Go sit down, leave us alone. We're trying to work. And I just started, I mean that's how I found podcasts back in 2010 and just inhaled them. I loved them so much. I loved the craft of it. I love hearing all these different lives all the time. It just scratched that itch for me. And so I love, love audio, but it was like this is a side thing, so I'm going to focus on education reform and being a serious person. And then it just got to the point where I was like, I love this thing so much. I got to at least try. So in 2019, I found workforce storytelling organization
(11:49)
And we put on live stories and I was like, I can't even believe how lucky I am. This is like who gets to live a life like this? And then the pandemic hit and working for a live storytelling organization was the worst place you could be. And so it just so happened though that I had also on the side been working on a podcast of my own that I told everybody who was on it. I promise you only 50 people will ever hear this. I've researched it. It's very hard to break through in podcasting. No one will ever hear it. So on the day I got laid off, it just so happened that I had released the first episode of this podcast, the Secret Adventures of Black People. And that is kind of how I was then able to transition into podcasting.
Elise Hu (12:32):
And spoiler alert, more than 50 people heard it
Nichole Hill (12:37):
A lot more than 50 people. It's still so shocking though. I was like, you guys, I dunno what this is. My mom's like, why do all these people know my business? I'm like, I'm so sorry mom, I didn't
Elise Hu (12:45):
Listen. There is something so intimate about being an audio producer or podcaster in that you're really talking to no one and you're just talking to a mic. And so it makes you feel like you can share a lot.
Nichole Hill (13:00):
Yes.
Elise Hu (13:00):
And you're unencumbered. And so it was always sort of shocking to me. I mean, to this day, even as a longtime broadcaster, it's shocking to me that anybody hears anything that I'm sneak into the mic.
Nichole Hill (13:13):
100%.
Elise Hu (13:14):
Yes.
Nichole Hill (13:16):
I'm constantly like, whoops, how do you know that you literally made a whole show? I'm like, oh, and you heard it. How
Doree Shafrir (13:26):
So? True. That is very relatable. Just like I often forget what I
Nichole Hill (13:31):
Say. Of course. And you all are putting out so many episodes, so I'm sure it's just like I'm just getting on the mic and chatting with my homie and then you are in the episode 4 21 this and you're like, oh yeah. Ah, I should really reign it in. I'm just saying whatever. I totally get
Doree Shafrir (13:49):
It. Exactly, exactly. So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (14:02):
Okay, Nicole. So your latest project is a podcast called Our Ancestors Were Messy featuring not the news headlines, but the gossip pages of black newspapers post Civil War set it up for us. There were lots of black newspapers that really cropped up after the Civil War, like hundreds and hundreds.
Nichole Hill (14:23):
So even before the Civil War, black people were like, we need to be able to communicate with one another. There was a community of free black people and they were like, let's start a newspaper. And so they're talking about the news, they're talking about what's going on, especially sharing what's happening in the world minus all the racism and with black people in it. So that's how the papers are going. But then after the Civil War, all of these black people now are all free. 3.9 million people are free. And so they need a new way to communicate with one another jobs and what is it like over here and where can you find housing and where can you send your kids to school? All of this is important. So the papers are really doing that. And then people are like, well, also I just need you to know that my sister is, I think she's seeing this married man, and what should I do about it?
(15:16)
And so now we've got advice columns because we've got communities of black people who are asking these questions. We've got singles ads and the personals where people are like, I'm looking for love. I hope he's tall. We've got arts and entertainment section where people are reviewing the movies and books and things, and we've got just gossip in between. All of that is just gossip. The ways that the papers are written. It's really funny. And sometimes it is just like, I love the Lord. He heard my cry. That service was so great, but the preacher was late. I dunno if you heard notice, but he's always late. We should really do something about this at the A MC Baptist Church. And if you're with me, I'll see you at the luncheon. It's very sly and it's written like that. And when I found them, I was like, this is delicious.
Doree Shafrir (16:07):
So who is editing these papers?
Nichole Hill (16:10):
So their editors are all kind of become these heroes of black history. So the most popular paper was written by a man named Robert Sack Abbott. And he was just like, it's not that they have a background in journalism at all, it's that they are very ambitious men and women who have some kind of idea or philosophy for the community that they think everybody should know. And so they take over a paper because it is an avenue into prominence, into prestige, into power, into influence. So you get a paper, you take it over and you just become the editor and you hire every Langston Hughes, Zora Ne Hurston, WB Du Bois. All of these people were reporters in addition to all the other things that they were. Ida B. Wells was an editor herself of a paper in Chicago. And so all of these people become the editors and just hire everyone to write in. But citizens are writing in quite a bit and sharing the citizen gossip is like, it's a very thriving economy in these papers.
Elise Hu (17:14):
And you use individual stories as jumping off points for entire episodes, but I'm guessing you're having to kind of go through everything and there's a lot that's kind of left on the cutting room floor. So I'm curious, what has really stood out to you? Are there certain themes in all of the tea that have stood out to you or stories that you would've liked to get to that for one reason or another you didn't get to?
Nichole Hill (17:39):
Well, the themes that stand out to me a lot are everybody is experimenting with what is a black identity going to be in America now? Everything is so new. And when they ask their parents and their grandparents, they were enslaved. And so there's just this generational divide that is so stark. And even when they, in between the generations after that, it's sort of like, okay, well, you're the first generation to be born free, but I'm the second. So I have a totally different idea about what's possible. And so everybody within this is the way I read it, is a lot of experimentation with identity. And then I mean, the question everyone is exploring within that is, I want to be a flapper and also I want to beat Jim Crow. So how is my being a flapper, how could that contribute to beating Jim Crow?
(18:32)
This is the big question on everybody's mind. It's like, can it be defeated? How can I defeated it? And the tension between, I want to go live my life, but I know I'm supposed to be focused on beating Jim Crow. And that was why it felt so relevant to when I first found 'em in 2020. And then of course to today, like you want to live your life. You want to go do something frivolous or adventurous or romantic. And also there are these larger forces at play in the world at all times where you're just like, I have to contribute to the fight.
Elise Hu (19:07):
Yeah, it's so relevant because we're living in this time where the next disaster feels right around the corner, and yet our concerns are still about our daily joy and whether we can find pleasure
Nichole Hill (19:19):
And
Elise Hu (19:19):
Take care of ourselves.
Nichole Hill (19:21):
Especially I love the thirties. That's a time I'm really, really interested in. And everyone's writing and they're saying, this is the worst it's ever been or will ever be. Nobody will live through anything worse than what we are going through right now. And in addition to Jim Crow, we've got a depression, we've got world wars, everything is so bad. Everybody's coming up with all these philosophies for how could we make things better. But they're also just like, ah, I really want to sleep with my assistant's wife. What am I going to do? It's just the tension between the two is just endlessly fascinating to me.
Doree Shafrir (19:56):
Are people responding in the papers? Is there sort of an ongoing conversation happening in these papers?
Nichole Hill (20:05):
Absolutely, yes. And so the way that it's working, it's a bit of a town square and a lot of them start in the north
(20:14)
And they'll say they'll refer to the black community as a household, or they just have these names for We are all a part of the same struggle, even though everybody is very individualized within it. And then they will send the papers down south a lot of times in a clandestine way because the South did not appreciate how the papers were fueling the great migration and attracting so many people out of the south. And so in them, it's like a lot of people up north saying, if you are in Georgia, you should move to Chicago. The Chicago, most famously it's like credit as being one of the number one engines of the great migration. So it's like, you should move to Chicago. You will find housing this way, and a bunch of lists of mutual aid societies. These are the hospitals you can go to. These are the jobs you can apply for. Here are one way, here's how much a one-way train ticket costs. Here's a schedule, you should come. And then people will write, I love it in Chicago. It's so great. And then people will write in with their questions and people are talking back and forth in this way and then influencing one another to make these gigantic life changes. But they're very much a town square, and it's very much a conversation between sometimes just the editor and the public, but a lot of times the public is writing it.
Doree Shafrir (21:31):
You're writing like a PhD thesis. This is
Nichole Hill (21:35):
Unbelievable. It's so funny. I never think about it this way. I'm just like, yes. Well, the gossip is definitely a Trojan horse. But yeah,
Doree Shafrir (21:42):
No, I mean, I went to grad school for history. This is fully what someone would write their dissertation on
Nichole Hill (21:51):
And
Doree Shafrir (21:52):
Examining just how it created black culture and black community. If you so chose, you could turn this into, if you're not
Elise Hu (22:00):
Having enough fun yet, you could always write a PhD, PhD
Doree Shafrir (22:03):
Dissertation. You could always write a PhD dissertation. I
Nichole Hill (22:08):
Do that after this, whatever.
Doree Shafrir (22:09):
Yeah. I mean, I know you've pivoted already career wise, so why not just
Nichole Hill (22:14):
Add this on? I'm, you've really done a lot of work. It's true. I've done a lot of research. I'm happy that It's fascinating though, literally when there was a time where I was pitching this around hoping to get distribution or funding or whatever, and it's like archival. I did not have my pitch together, but in the very beginning. And so it would be like these archival newspapers from the pre-Civil rights era, and everybody's like, what are talking about? No, no, don't get it. You just got to be like,
Elise Hu (22:43):
This is normal gossip. But from a hundred years ago, featuring elite black people,
Doree Shafrir (22:50):
It's the kind of history that I feel like doesn't get told
Nichole Hill (22:54):
That much.
Doree Shafrir (22:55):
And you've really hit, that's something, yeah, you've really hit on something so important and so fascinating that was so crucial to this community. So I don't know. I think it's really cool.
Nichole Hill (23:07):
Thank you. Thank you very much. That means a lot to hear. It's good to, I've been working on it for so long that along the way I'll just be tinkering, tinkering, tinkering. And then I stepped back and I'm like, is this a Frankenstein? What have I created? What even is?
Elise Hu (23:21):
No, it sounds so good though too. So for those of y'all audio nerds out there, and if you haven't heard the show yet, Nicole makes these episodes sound sort of like old timey radio too. There's kind of an announcer voice and it's excellent scoring and you're just instantly in it and it feels really vibrant and alive. So be sure to check out the podcast. I remember at the outset of this interview you mentioning also the personal ads in these African-American newspapers. So I want to get to that. What did you learn about what it was like to date as a black person back in the early 20th century whenever these personal ads started? I'm so curious. People
Nichole Hill (24:04):
Were having a bad time. It's not fun. And online dating, which is essentially what the newspapers are, people will write in. So the way that it works is that a person, let's say it's the Washington Afro-American, which is one of the most popular newspapers in the country at that time. They had 19 different offshoots in Philly and New York. So they have an editor named Albertine Ash that is an anonymous person, but is actually a woman. I thought for years this was a man. But then I learned recently that this is a woman,
Elise Hu (24:33):
And
Nichole Hill (24:33):
People would write into Albertine and they'd be like, I am looking for a single man that is tall, that likes a girl who likes to dance, who is single, who is kind, and also he is single and he doesn't have a wife, and he doesn't have anybody that thinks that she's his wife and he's alone and unmarried. And
Doree Shafrir (24:56):
Did I mention single? This is the early, late 19th century, early 20th century version of that. Are we dating the same guy? Yes. Facebook groups. Which sort of leads me to my question, which is obviously these were in a very different era. People were very different, the world was very different. But there does seem to be these commonalities where people are people. And so I'm wondering what of that kind of stuff have you sort of uncovered where you're like, oh my God, this could basically be something that someone's writing today?
Nichole Hill (25:37):
Yes. You know what? At the end of a lot of my episodes, I say something to the equivalent of, this is a line from Battlestar Galactica. All this has happened before and this will all happen again. It is so similar to today because essentially it's like, I mean, the tension that I spoke to before of I want to do something to beat Jim Crow, to contribute to the conditions of the people that I love and the people that are like me. And also I just want go out here and be so reckless that it makes no sense. And then people trying to navigate between those two things, people trying to balance their dreams and their family. There's like, oh, one story that I thought was so heartbreaking. A dad writes into the paper and he's like, I realize that because I'm the disciplinarian for my kids and I show up as strong and tough that when my kids are happy or scared or excited, they run to my wife, their mother, and they don't come to me and what should I do? And at that time, the papers are giving them this advice of your kids will eventually appreciate your strength. The man is strong. And now of course we know that is not the advice you want to give, but people wrestling with their roles in society and how limiting and restricting they are and wanting to experiment and explore with being allowed to do more.
Elise Hu (26:52):
Yeah. What was some bad advice that was given?
Nichole Hill (26:58):
I mean, anything that involves a husband being like, why is my wife doing it? This all the advice is always just like, because she's a woman and she needs to knock it off. So a lot of that, anything that has to do with that is always just like, I just gloss over it. But sometimes there was one that was like, my wife really loves spend a lot of money, and I love her so much, so what should I do? And I think the advice was pick a day where you let her spend a ton of money and then she'll be really happy and she won't want to spend any more money. And it was like, that is not how human beings, oh dear. I know this is 22, but I'm going to tell you right now, it's not going to work.
Elise Hu (27:44):
If you could only time travel and become an advice column writer from a hundred
Nichole Hill (27:49):
Years ago, how much I want to time travel and just be able to see these communities because all of these papers and all of my stories take place in segregated communities, which I imagined would have been very sad and awful. But then I'm reading these papers and it's like, all right, guys, we're all going to go to the beach on Saturday. Who wants to meet up with me? And we're all going to go to the dance hall and we're all going to go to the movies. And there's just so much life and vibrance and community, especially back then that really fascinated me and captured my imagination and made me want to tell these stories. And in a black historical story, oftentimes racism is the engine for the story. It's the thing that drives the action. And in my stories, it's gossip and something interpersonal like that. And that's not to say that racism isn't present in any stories, but it's on the outskirts because the stories are taking place in a segregated community. So it's just black people with black
Elise Hu (28:46):
People. Yeah. What are you hoping that people take away from our ancestors? Were messy.
Nichole Hill (28:53):
I hope that it gives people a sense of a closeness to their identity. I often say I felt a bit alienated from my identity when I learned about history prior to digging into all this research. They were so strong and they were so focused, and they accomplished the unimaginable, which is that they beat Jim Crow. I love the Housewives so much, and I have so much fun watching them and could lose so many hours, and it's like I should just be focused on the fight. But reading these stories, it really was a reminder that people are people that people, you can do both. I was in education reform for as long as I was because I thought this is the way to contribute to the fight. This is important. And loving audio and stories and podcasting isn't important. So that's why it was always relegated to, this is just a little thing I do on the side.
Elise Hu (29:48):
In your own hierarchy.
Nichole Hill (29:49):
In my own hierarchy, yes. I was just like, who? I'm not going to run off and tell stories. That's ridiculous. I need to contribute to a serious part of this fight. And eventually it was like, this isn't true for me though. If I continue on this path, I need to do what is true for me and understand that I can both love in my community and want to give back and want to fight, contribute to the fight. And I can just love art and making it. And even if the stories aren't important or big, this show is example, but a lot of my stories on the secret of interest of black people are just like, I met this girl and she was so interesting, and we had a conversation and it took a long time to be like, that's okay. But I now believe that.
(30:28)
And making this show has made me believe it even more. And then in this time that we're in where I feel like so many people are just feeling very hopeless or very much, we're just so divided, so what are we going to do? These community of people, they did, they managed to beat Jim Crow and they didn't do it by all deciding on this is the one way that we should go about it. There was so much disagreement, but everyone, wherever they were, got together with their community and tried everything they could think to do that they thought was right to beat this terrible injustice that they were facing. They tested the fences all along the way. They were not perfect. They did not agree. They did not give up all of their worldly pleasures to do it, but they were consistent in their efforts and they eventually succeeded.
Elise Hu (31:14):
That's such an important lesson. It changed the world. Yeah. That's such an important takeaway. I really needed to hear that because I've been feeling like every day is a fresh
Nichole Hill (31:20):
Hell,
Elise Hu (31:21):
And it's probably the worst time it's been since I've been alive, so it's really just hard to even metabolize. But this is such a great reminder that there have been awful times. Progress is triumphed eventually, that we can all kind of do something.
Doree Shafrir (31:40):
What happened to these papers?
Nichole Hill (31:42):
So around the time that Brown versus Board of Education passed and communities really started to integrate, a lot of people just kind of stopped reading them or stopped investing in them. They lost their ad revenue, and a lot of them went under because the community just looked so different. And so the way that they engaged with the papers was totally different. And so most of them folded, but there are a few that are still in existence and in circulation today, and they survive through a lot of charitable donations, and then people still subscribing to them.
Doree Shafrir (32:19):
I lived in Philly for a few years, and I feel like there was definitely a black newspaper in Philly that was still in existence at least 15 years ago.
Nichole Hill (32:29):
There has to be one. I know of a Pittsburgh one. I don't know of a Philly one, but there's, the Amsterdam News is a very historic one in New York. And then the Afro-Americans still going in Baltimore, Maryland. There's the Chicago defender,
Doree Shafrir (32:42):
The Philadelphia Tribune. That's what it's called.
Nichole Hill (32:44):
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And that is still going. I
Doree Shafrir (32:47):
Actually tell a
Nichole Hill (32:47):
Story about the Philadelphia Tribune. Yeah,
Doree Shafrir (32:49):
It says it's still going. It's the oldest continuously published African-American newspaper in the United States
Elise Hu (32:55):
At this rate. It might last longer than the Washington Post. We'll see.
Nichole Hill (32:57):
I mean, listen,
Elise Hu (32:59):
Mean, my eyes are just, I'm doing my eye thing.
Nichole Hill (33:04):
Listeners who
Elise Hu (33:05):
Can't through it. We're going through it. Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back. The other thing that we learned about you was that you're very close with your dad. And so I'd love for you to talk about what that relationship has meant to you, because we spent a lot of time on the show talking about our connections with one another, and we spent the last month on friendship, and after I learned you were close with your dad, I'd love for you just to kind of reflect a little bit on that and shout him out if you want to.
Nichole Hill (33:38):
Oh my gosh. My dad, Troy Hill, shout out to you. He lives in Virginia Beach, and he has always been a person who would after school or just random times, he'd be like, everybody, all the kids in the car, he turns on some music and he would just drive us around and tell us stories from his childhood, stories from his day. We listened to a lot of music, and he'd tell us stories about the music. It's all oldies. When I think of my dad, I think of the view of him from the passenger seat when we're riding around, just listening to him tell stories. And he's always been a person that has poured into me this love for everything that has to do with being black, anything that has to do with being adventurous and with exploring the planet. And he's been the biggest supporter of all the ways that I've traveled and experimented with my life. He's just such a, I mean, I guess he's a big guy, but he's just a little baby teddy bear. I feel like all of us have him in the palm of our hands, all of us kids. But he's just a lover of stories and has always been like that.
Elise Hu (34:49):
How many siblings?
Nichole Hill (34:51):
I have three.
Elise Hu (34:52):
And where are you in the birth order?
Nichole Hill (34:53):
So I am the second. So I have an older half-sister who lived in Ohio, so in Virginia, of the Virginia siblings. I'm the oldest and the queen.
Elise Hu (35:02):
Okay.
Nichole Hill (35:03):
Get them. When Ohio comes down, then I'm second in command.
Doree Shafrir (35:10):
Well, we're all here in Los Angeles. And before we let you go, what would you say is the most LA thing about you? Or is there, what's the most LA thing that has happened to you?
Nichole Hill (35:26):
Oh, the most LA thing. Well, I have worked with some celebrities. Oh, you know what? Recently I went to the Paramount lot, the back lot, and it looks exactly like Harlem and Yeah, because they have a Harlem
Elise Hu (35:42):
Set. They make streets. Right, right, right. Yeah. Set. Okay.
Nichole Hill (35:44):
And I was like, this is, I'm so Hollywood right now. It's ridiculous. I was there for a client and I was doing a podcast recording, and so I was just like, here's my badge. I need to get into the paramount lot. And then I'm just sort of walking around this make-believe New York and taking all these pictures and sending 'em to my friends. I say that that's among the most LA things. I'm also wearing an Altadena sweatshirt that's been in la. Yeah.
Elise Hu (36:12):
I feel like you should. So have you done any sort of deep dives on Altadena and any tea from Altadena in the Altadena community? Because I feel like, so folks who don't know listeners, Altadena was hit very hard by the Eaton fires in January, and then Altadena has really been the heart of the black middle class for a long time because it was one of the first communities in California that didn't have redlining policies that prohibited black home ownership. So I believe that isn't the black home ownership in Altadena twice the national average or something? Yes,
Nichole Hill (36:44):
Yes. That's what I read. I had known about that before the fires, and then I was like, oh, wow,
Elise Hu (36:49):
This
Nichole Hill (36:49):
Is extraordinary.
Elise Hu (36:51):
It feels like a great opportunity for someone like you who's all about the stories and history, and have you thought about an Altadena project?
Nichole Hill (36:59):
Yes. So there's the Los Angeles Sentinel is the black paper of la or was the black paper of la. And so I was, because of my East coast bias, not reading that much about la, but now that I've been here, a lot of these stories I've been researching for the past couple years. So they were all East coast things and a couple of Midwest things, but now I'm like, oh, la, here we go. So I'm digging into all this LA history and trying to find the right story that has all the elements that I look for at Altadena, because I'm very committed to telling an Altadena story.
Elise Hu (37:34):
Amazing. We all have that to look forward to. And Nicole Hill, it was such fun and such a delight to talk with you. Thank you for just being so open and reflective with us. We learned so much. And thanks for all the tea too that you're bringing to the airwaves.
Doree Shafrir (37:51):
Nicole, where can our listeners find you?
Nichole Hill (37:54):
Yes. Okay. So you can find everything about me and the show on our ancestors. Were messy.com. I'm also on Instagram at our ancestors were messy. And then on Instagram, I'm also Nicole with an H. You can find me there too.
Elise Hu (38:07):
Our ancestors were messy. Dot com was not a URL that was already taken when you went for it, so hey,
Nichole Hill (38:15):
I was like, oh, sure. I was typing it in. So scared. I'm sure somebody has taken this and it was totally, you
Elise Hu (38:20):
Didn't have to get.ca or
Nichole Hill (38:22):
Yeah, exactly. Co. And then you can listen to our ancestors. Were messy. Of course. It's everywhere you get your podcast.
Doree Shafrir (38:31):
Fantastic. Thanks Nicole. Thank you so much.
Nichole Hill (38:33):
Thank you. This is so fun.
Doree Shafrir (38:39):
Well, I really, really love talking to Nicole and it also scratched my academic history. You were really into that. I was like, okay, I'm listening. Let's step back and analyze this. You say, yeah, it was pretty good. So let's talk some intentions. Last week I talked about bulk items, the bulk item pickup. We took the crib and the mattress and an old car seat out and left it on the curb and it got picked up as promised. So that was very satisfying. And then I did make another bulk item pickup request for this week, and our broken old vacuum cleaner is going to get picked up.
Elise Hu (39:35):
Okay. It's very satisfying to put stuff out on the curb and then have the city services, city waste resources come and take care of that for you.
Doree Shafrir (39:48):
Yes, exactly. Elise, did you get to go on some long walks with Oscar?
Elise Hu (39:53):
I did try the sniff walks that you suggested last week, and he's such a puppy. It's super fun for him. But I do think that he would just go on and on and possibly into walking into neighborhoods and parts and major streets that I don't really want to be at. So I ended up letting him do it for 25, 30 minutes and then at some point have to turn back around. And generally at that point, we're not so far away that I'm lost. I was like, I hope I know my neighborhood well enough as we do this, but it's been super fun and I think he's having a good time with it. And he needs the stimulation because otherwise I'm just here podcasting all day.
Doree Shafrir (40:38):
Sometimes Bo will be like, okay, now we're going to cross this major street at a non cross. And I'm like, no, that's not happening. Sorry. Yeah. What do you have going on this week?
Elise Hu (40:55):
So what I intend for this week, I will follow on my theme of being inspired by the kids, the youths, and I am going to just try and go on some nice long, slow runs and see how my knee holds up. Nice.
Doree Shafrir (41:10):
Nice.
Elise Hu (41:10):
It felt really good. It felt really good. And the weather's getting nice. It's bing out. It finally stopped raining, so we'll try some longer runs.
Doree Shafrir (41:19):
Okay.
Elise Hu (41:20):
I'll call them jogs. Let's be realistic jobs. Love it.
Doree Shafrir (41:24):
What about you? Love it. I'm just going to focus on this visit with my in-laws, so that's just kind of awesome, making sure it's a good visit for everybody. Yay. Yay. Alright, well thanks everyone for listening and Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir, Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partners Acast. Thanks everyone.
Elise Hu (41:53):
Talk to you next time.
Doree Shafrir (41:54):
Bye.