Episode 341: Killing Them With Kindness with Kasley Killam
Doree and Elise speak with Kasley Killam, a leading expert in social health and author of The Art and Science of Connection: Why Social Health is the Missing Key to Living Longer, Healthier, and Happier. They discuss how an experiment in acts of kindness led to a lifelong interest in studying relationship building, how to balance being an introvert with your social health, why your social health and level of connection isn't constant (in a good way), and how to use a shared experience to build connection.
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode Ai generated.
Doree (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Dory Chare.
Elise (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hugh. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree (00:22):
How's it going, Elise?
Elise (00:25):
We are back. I am back in the country. I spent President's Day weekend in Ade Mexico in the capital of Mexico, and it was delightful. I had several friends joined from different parts of my life, and their only connection was me, but now they're all friends with each other. There's a very boisterous group chat, and some of the group actually stayed longer, stayed until Thursday, and so they're hanging out with my friends who live in Mexico City to do a little bit more stuff. But yeah, we ate so many delicious tacos. We hit the El pastor. That's so good there. And the fish tacos and the chili eno tacos, and it was a really good time. We took a salsa making class. A friend of mine arranged, she took charge of Saturday night, and she was like, I found this salsa making experience with a local chef where you go to his house and he, he'll teach all eight of us.
(01:21):
And he did that. We made six different salsas. Two of them were fresh, two of them were cooked, and then two of them were half cooked, half fresh, because you can have salsas that you kind of roast the tomatoes and you roast the chilies, but then there's other ingredients like the cilantro and the onions. They're fresh, and so you just blend them all together. So I learned a lot about that. We've made our own corn tortillas, took in all the history of it. Mexico City is very European in a lot of ways. It's very lush and it's Parisian in that it has the art deco architecture and it has a lot of the roundabouts and then the parks that you have to walk through to get anywhere. So a lot of folks say that it reminds them of Paris. I will say what was really unique about it was all of the PDA.
(02:10):
That is a city of love. That is a city of love. Granted, I landed there on the evening of Valentine's Day, and so everybody was out and about anyway, and there's a lot of sidewalk dining and cafes and it's so great. It's so vibrant and alive. But then there were people just mowing down, just making out everywhere and pushed into walls. They were backed into walls making out. And man, I was like, dang. But it made me feel great because I just feel like shows of love and eroticism, there's a sense of just being alive to it. And so
(02:52):
I
(02:52):
Really liked that this was a place that culturally clearly culturally, the PDA A is. People are just down.
Doree (02:59):
That is so interesting.
Elise (03:01):
Yeah. Yeah. That was fun. And then my only complaint really was the guy who sat behind me on the plane on the way back, who could not stop sniffling. So I've discovered a new plane, pet peeve, which is like the ongoing, I'm going. And then I either wanted to hand him a tissue or he was a cocaine addict, who knows? And a tissue wouldn't have helped, but that went on for four hours.
Doree (03:31):
Oh my God. That would've driven me insane. Did you have noise canceling headphones?
Elise (03:37):
I did not. I did not. Yeah. I guess that could have helped, could have dealt with it, but I didn't expect that particular pet peeve. People have had all sorts of crazy things happen to them on planes regarding other passengers. My friend Esther just shared warning listeners that this might gross you out.
Doree (04:02):
Oh no. Where's
Elise (04:04):
My warning? Sorry, Dora. My friend Esther was on a plane this week and she was just starting to fall asleep. And the guy behind her, or next to her, I don't know, was clipping his fingernails.
Doree (04:21):
No,
Elise (04:22):
A fingernail bit went flying, and some of it landed on her mouth. She,
Doree (04:29):
No,
Elise (04:29):
She went and she went and plucked it off her lip, and she realized it was a fingernail clipping. One of the responses to this was just like, did you just jump off the plane? Did you
(04:42):
Just
(04:42):
Jump off the plane right there?
(04:45):
No.
(04:46):
Can you imagine if a fingernail clipping landed in your mouth?
Doree (04:51):
Now, that is really vile. In my first slate column, my workplace advice column that I've been writing for the last few weeks, I did mention my former boss who would clip his nails in his cubicle, which was next to me. And it was just like, who told you this was okay? What are you doing? It's so gross. It's so gross. Or people on the New York subway who would clip their nails.
Elise (05:25):
Did you say anything to your boss?
Doree (05:27):
No, I couldn't say anything. I just felt like he also, he had so many other issues that was the tip of the iceberg, but it was just so, it was so gross.
Elise (05:41):
So gross. Boy. Yeah. So these airplanes require being in close proximity with a lot of other humans
Doree (05:52):
Close.
Elise (05:53):
And so these kinds of things and will happen. It's just, wow. It surprises me. The stories surprise me what people are willing to do. It always bothers me when somebody in the bulkhead seat takes off their shoes and then sometimes their socks, or they're not wearing any socks and they put their feet up on the wall in front of them in the Bullhead seat. I see that. And I'm just like, Ugh. And then one time I was sitting next to a mom and her college aged son, and when mealtime happened, she cut his meat for him. What? Yeah, I've seen so many things. Oh my God. Okay. Okay. I don't want to be doing that. It actually led to a complex for me so that when my kids were young, I was just sort of even younger than they are now. I was like, you better know how to cut your meat. You must know how to cut your, I'm not going to cut your meat for you on a plane when you're 25. Oh my God. Hard pass.
Doree (06:59):
Yikes. Wow. Well, Elise, thank you for sharing your plane horror stories.
Elise (07:12):
You are
Doree (07:12):
Welcome. Everybody else. Oh my
Elise (07:14):
Gosh, you're welcome.
Doree (07:16):
Before we introduce our guest, I just want to remind everyone on our website forever 35 podcast.com. We have links to everything we mentioned here on the show. We are on Instagram at Forever 35 podcast. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com/forever three five. We do our weekly casual chats. We do our Forever 35 questionnaires. We do our monthly pop culture roundups recommendations. I have a bunch for March.
Elise (07:43):
Oh, I cannot wait for March. Yes.
Doree (07:45):
Just telling you. Okay. So yeah, so check that out. We also have our newsletter at February 35 podcast.com/newsletter. And call or text us at (781) 591-0390 or email us at February 35 podcast at Gmail. Do Elise, do you want to introduce everyone to our guest?
Elise (08:07):
Yes. Today I am delighted to introduce Kasley Killam, who is a leading expert in social health and author of the Art and Science of Connection. Why social health is the missing key to living longer, healthier, and happier? She's a Harvard trained social scientist, a two-time TED speaker. She's a sought after advisor and award-winning founder. Killam has been dedicated to improving wellbeing through Human Connection for nearly 15 years. And her collaborations with top organizations like Google, the US Department of Health and Human Services, and the World Economic Forum contribute to building more socially healthy products, workplaces and communities. We love her. She's not only of insight, she's also just a warm and gentle soul. She's a self-described introvert and has really dedicated her life to not just friendship, but just connection overall. So we thought that she would be a perfect guest for this series.
Doree (09:10):
She was so, so great to talk to, and I've said this before, but I do love how all of our friendship conversations have focused on different angles of friendship. It's been really cool. Alright, we are going to be right back with Kasley.
(09:36):
Kasley. Welcome to Forever 35. We are so excited to have you on the show today.
Kasley Killam (09:42):
Thanks for having me. Excited to chat with you both.
Doree (09:45):
So we like to start off by asking our guests if they have a self-care practice that they would like to share. So is there something that you do regularly that you would consider?
Kasley Killam (09:59):
Well, it's a very timely question because I've been trying to sort out some health issues and basically have doctor's orders to not allow stress in my life right now. And so my, oh gosh, current self-care routine and goal is really around fun and maximizing opportunities for fun in my life. So my husband and I have started doing these bachata dance classes. We went to a comedy show on the weekend. I signed up for a painting class, which starts tonight. Oh my gosh. So I'm just going all out trying to create more joy and creativity and laughter in my day-to-day. How cool.
Doree (10:45):
We've had a couple guests on the show who mentioned dance as a self-care practice, and I do think there is something just so I don't know, so invigorating about dance and it really just sort of takes you out of yourself and
Kasley Killam (11:02):
Yes, it really does. And it's very playful, very, I can't believe how much I laugh and smile when we're in those classes. It's just really genuinely fun and we're terrible. Right. It's not about being good.
Doree (11:16):
No, exactly. Exactly. That's the thing too. It's like that doesn't matter.
Kasley Killam (11:22):
Yeah, not at all. Not at all.
Elise (11:25):
And then Caley, I love that you mentioned comedy because when I came on as a guest to Forever 35, they asked me the same question at the beginning of last year. And my self-care really for all of 2024 was to try and go to more live comedy shows. I love it. Yeah, it's so easy to do too. We happen to be in a big city and there's comedians that are working out material here.
Kasley Killam (11:52):
I don't who it is. If they're up there, I'm rooting for them and it's going to be interesting and entertaining no matter what. I think it's actually a good lesson of just the audience wants you to succeed. It's kind of relevant for us. All people want you to do well if you're out giving it your all and sharing a message or whatever it is that you're doing. So yeah, I'm just happy to watch anyone who's got the guts to do it.
Doree (12:21):
Kaley, you write and talk a lot about social health, and I was reading some interviews with you and you mentioned kind of your origin story of how you got interested in this subject that as an undergrad you did an experiment doing an act of kindness every day for 108 days. And I would love to hear a little bit more about that and how it led to your current area of research.
Kasley Killam (12:49):
Yeah, sure. So this is a throwback, but it's an experience that has never left me. So like you said, I was in my final semester of undergrad, I was studying psychology and I was fascinated by research on how to promote empathy, how to promote kindness, just generally how to help people connect better. I was personally interested in that as an introvert, as someone who'd moved around a lot and interested from a professional perspective in the research which I was part of at that time. And so I decided to just try applying it in my own life. And so for 108 days, I did an act of kindness every day. I chose 108 because it's a number that actually has a lot of different meanings. There's 108 stitches on major league baseballs. There are 108 maah beads in a Buddhist prayer necklace. And that was really the original inspiration for me.
(13:43):
I'd spent time in a Buddhist monastery and liked that ritual of kind of going bead by bead. And so I thought each day is my bead, what's my act of kindness or mantra for the day? And so I did a whole range of things that ranged from simple gestures like holding the door open for people or complimenting someone to more invested ones, like volunteering at local food kitchens and the retirement residents near where I was going to college. A whole range of different things. Some really extravagant things like giving free hugs at the door to the library on campus, handing out helium balloons in downtown Toronto. Lots of fun things. But what I found was actually transformative because first of all, it had all these incredible effects for my relationships. I met new people, I made new friends. I deepened the relationships that I had with my family and friends and network in general through writing gratitude letters and reaching out more and making a point of being there for them.
(14:49):
So I found that my relationships strengthening, but I also found that I was so happy, I was so energized and motivated to take care of other parts of my life that I was eating healthier foods, I was exercising more regularly. I got the best GPA of any semester in my undergrad weirdly, because it was just such an invigorating, amazing experience to be focused on connection. And the last thing I'll share is that it really opened my eyes to the fact that there were opportunities for connection all around me, and I just kind of had to open my eyes to them and actually be intentional about seizing those opportunities because they are all around, but it's so easy to get caught up in our day-to-day and our to-do list and homework or work or whatever it is, and not actually be open to connecting on a deeper level with the people around you. So it's very, very fun experiment that then led me on this path of realizing that applying the research insights in my life and other people's lives in the work that I do was something I was really passionate about.
Elise (15:56):
It really influenced your career trajectory and arguably your life trajectory, right? Because now you have done a lot of research on connection and it sounds like you've been out there really making the case for how we are measuring health in an incomplete way. We talk a lot about mental health. Obviously we focus on physical health, but that misses something. So can you talk a little bit about what's missing and why?
Kasley Killam (16:23):
Yeah, absolutely. So typically, like you said, when we talk about health, we primarily think about physical and mental health, which obviously are very important. But if we're not also taking care of our relationships, we cannot be fully healthy. And what I've discovered in almost 15 years of studying this topic is that the research is very clear. If you want to live a long and healthy life, you need to have supportive and caring relationships, whether that's with family, with friends, with a sense of community locally or through volunteering or the work that you do. Our social ties are actually determining our risk for things like heart disease, stroke, dementia, diabetes. And at the very extreme end, they actually play into our lifespans and how long we end up living. And so what I've found in my work is that people tend to underestimate the importance of connection.
(17:22):
And we kind of think it's like this nice to have or this feel good thing. In fact, it's rewiring our brains. It's changing the physiology of our bodies and affecting how susceptible we're to diseases. So it's much more important than that. And it's really distinct from mental health. You can take care of your mind and go to therapy and be resilient and practice good hygiene around your mental wellbeing, around your physical wellbeing. But if there's that missing piece, you can't be fully healthy. And so what I like to share with people is this idea that social health is as important as our physical and mental health, and yet it's very underappreciated. This is the next wave that's coming in our evolution of understanding what it means to be healthy. We understand our bodies increasingly, we've understood the importance of mental health, and now we're moving to this next phase where we really can see that we absolutely need to strengthen our social health as well in order to live good, long, happy, healthy lives.
Doree (18:25):
One thing that I know you've talked and written about is how being an introvert and being socially healthy are not mutually exclusive. To have social health doesn't mean that you're out partying every night. So I was hoping you could talk a little bit about that, just what does social health really look like and how do you do it if you are an introvert?
Kasley Killam (18:57):
Totally.
(18:58):
Yeah. I love that you brought this up. First of all, I want to share that I'm an introvert and sometimes that surprises people, but I'm an introvert, and that doesn't mean that I'm not socially healthier or that I can't be. So what I think is really important to understand is that in the same way that the way we take care of our physical health is different for each person. Some people love running, some people love going to the gym, some people love yoga. Some people need nine hours of sleep at night. Some do fine on seven. It's different for each of us. The same can be said of our social health. So how much interaction is energizing for you is going to vary based on where you fall on that introvert extrovert spectrum. But also the types of connection that feel fulfilling and meaningful for you are going to vary.
(19:49):
And that's okay. Some people are super comfortable at a party socializing, being that social butterfly. Other people not so much, and they'd rather be one-on-one and have a deeper conversation with someone they know really well. It varies for each of us. And so in my book I wrote about these four different kind of archetypes, which I called social health styles, the butterfly, the wallflower, the firefly, and the evergreen, and how each of us tend to fall into one of those kind of categories based on the amount and the type of connection that we like. So butterfly, unsurprisingly, someone who is very comfortable in casual situations, likes a lot of interaction, a wallflower, someone who likes less interaction and sort of has a harder time opening up with people, they dunno. But then there's also a firefly. So this is someone who loves infrequent deep connection.
(20:46):
So this is me. I love having deeper conversations like this connecting with my loved ones, but I don't need to see people every single day to be okay and to thrive. And then the final idea is of an evergreen. This is someone who likes a lot of deep connection, so someone who's constantly in touch with their close friends and going to that deeper level, skipping straight past the small talk. And so none of these is better than the other. It's just different. And understanding our styles and how we relate to one another can help us think about what we need at any given time in our life.
Elise (21:24):
And you're such a perfect guest to have on because you are being featured in our special February series on friendship. Hey, no way. So you probably know some of the other guests that are going to be speaking to us for this I can guess series on friendship. And one piece of information I remember you talking about, because I got to be in the audience when you were giving your Ted talk, was this really rather alarming stat that one in five people. So 20% of people worldwide have no one to reach out to support one follow up. I had to That is, is that acceptable? Is it okay for folks to be more loners or is it rather unhealthy as you talk about to be so disconnected?
Kasley Killam (22:20):
Yeah, that's such an interesting question. It's funny I mentioned those four styles and I got this cool opportunity to collaborate with the New York Times on a quiz to help people decide which of those styles they are. And one person commented, there should be a fifth. That's a cicada that comes out once every however many months. Funny years. That's funny. That's just to emerge, right? A total loaner comes out every now and then. So maybe there's something to that where some people really do only feel comfortable in that situation. But the research is pretty clear that having regular interaction, having physical touch, feeling supported, these are ingredients that are necessary to be healthy and happy and live a fulfilling life, where's the joy in being alone all the time? So again, it's a gradient for everyone and some people are much more comfortable airing on the side of being alone, but it's hard to argue with the data that we need each other to feel grounded and to bring meaning and joy into our lives.
Elise (23:30):
You brought up physical touch. Does texting, does FaceTiming, does that count
Kasley Killam (23:35):
For connection? It counts in so much as those are tools to help us stay connected. My family all lives in a different country. A lot of my friends live in other cities. And so those are tools that we need in order to maintain those relationships. But there are definitely unique benefits to in-person connection. And like you said, there's the physical touch. There's just all the cues that we're picking up on from each other when we're face-to-face, right? The subtle body cues and body language and facial expressions that are harder to pick up over zoom and just there's something uniquely nourishing about being, and we all know this, right? We don't need a study to really tell us this. We all know from going through Covid that it feels different to be in person with other people, but the research definitely supports that. So we can use all those tools that are available to us, but whenever possible to be in person with the people we care about most really does matter.
Doree (24:32):
And how would you suggest someone go about improving their social health if they kind of have the awareness that maybe they are a little lonely and it's starting to affect them or just don't know where to start?
Kasley Killam (24:48):
Yeah, totally. Well, it does depend on what the pain point is for people. So it could be that there's kind of a lack of quantity, so not enough interaction, not enough friends, not enough people who they can reach out to. Or it could be a pain point of the quality of connection. Maybe you have lots of friends and you socialize all the time, but you're not going that deeper level or you don't feel like you can open up and show other parts of yourself to the people who you're with. So it's kind of about first evaluating is it an issue of quantity or quality, and then taking steps to remedy that. And I mean, I wrote a whole book about how to go about this in different ways because there are so many things that we can do. But just to give one example, I think one of the most common questions that I get is if you do feel like there just aren't enough people in your life, how do you make friends as an
Elise (25:44):
Adult? Yes, we've done that question from our listeners for sure.
Kasley Killam (25:47):
Yeah, it's
Elise (25:48):
Really, or just when you move to a new town and it's hard to make friends as an adult, then
Kasley Killam (25:53):
Exactly what you do. Yes. Moving to a new town or going through a life transition of any kind. Maybe you're a new parent, maybe you're just evolving and looking for new people to share experiences with. It's totally normal and and the frequency that I get, this question tells us that everyone experiences this at some point. It's totally normal. So one of the suggestions that I love, which is intuitive, but very much backed by research, is to do what you love with others. So if you love running, join a running club. If you love hiking, go to meetup.com, find a local hiking group. If you love books and reading, join a book club at your local library for free. Whatever it is that you love doing, go and do that with other people. What this does is a few different things. First, it's just logistically a way to meet new people, but secondly, it takes the pressure off of the interaction.
(26:51):
If you're hanging out with someone for the first time and you're just having coffee across the table from each other or having dinner, there's kind of this pressure or it can feel really intimidating. You have to make a good impression and you have to have an awesome conversation where you both hit it off. But if you're doing a shared activity, the attention is on that. And so your conversation can more naturally arise. You can relax and have that thing that you're focused on. And then the other reason this is a really valuable way to make new friends is that research shows repeated experiences repeatedly. Seeing someone and having those shared experiences, having that consistency is a really crucial ingredient in developing a friendship. So the more often that you see someone, the more likely it is that you're going to become friends. So you already have this thing in common. You can do it often.
Elise (27:38):
Yeah. This is like Dory and her tennis team.
Doree (27:41):
Yeah, it's like me and my tennis team, they really
Elise (27:42):
Bonded over the years.
Doree (27:45):
I mean, it's been less than a year.
Elise (27:47):
Oh my gosh. It feels like that's your squad now.
Doree (27:51):
Yeah,
Elise (27:52):
Her recreational tennis team.
Doree (27:54):
I think also, I think for a lot of people it can be intimidating to sort of say to yourself, I'm going to try to make more friends. It feels like an insurmountable hill to climb. And so when you kind of focus it on a hobby or an interest, it lowers the stakes in a way, thinking about doing something else in addition to making friends. Yeah,
Kasley Killam (28:20):
Absolutely. And it's building a sense of community. So even if it doesn't lead to one friendship, who becomes your best friend, now you're part of this group where you have this shared thing in common. You feel like you're part of your community, you're engaging on a regular basis, and that helps us feel connected too.
Elise (28:38):
Yeah. Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back. Caley, I would love for you to talk through the 5 3 1 recommendation from your book, because I tried to actually capture it at the end of one of our episodes once, but I think I butchered it. And actually we had a listener write it and be like, can you review that with us? And so talk us through the 5 3 1 recommendation, please.
Kasley Killam (29:08):
Sure. Yes. So this is based on research on the habits of people who thrive through connection and also kind of the minimum amount of interaction that we need. So the idea is to aim for the 5 3 1 guideline if you need a starting point, similar to 10,000 steps a day or eight hours of sleep at night. So the idea is aim to interact with five different people each week to strengthen at least three close relationships and to spend one hour a day in quality connection. So five different people each week, three close relationships and one hour a day connecting. So we talked earlier about introverts and extroverts. Depending on where you are on the spectrum, you're having one of two reactions. You're like, whoa, that is way too high. I don't want to be around people that much. That's too much. Or you're like, whoa, that's way lower than I already do. And either reaction is, okay, similar to 10,000 steps, eight hours, it might be higher or lower than what you personally need, but that's a starting point to help you kind of anchor your actions. That
Elise (30:17):
Make sense? And when you say spend time connecting, what does that mean? What does it look like?
Kasley Killam (30:21):
Yes. So ideally in person, but it could be a phone call, it could be FaceTiming with someone. It's going to vary for interacting with five different people a week. That could be your neighbors, that could be people at work as well. Just making sure that there's variety, because a lot of research shows that the more diverse interaction and the more diverse relationships that we have, the better off we all are. It's helpful to interact with people who are different from us and to not invest all in one person. If your partner is the only person you ever talk to or you just have one friend, that's not as helpful as having a variety of different people.
Elise (31:08):
Yeah, I love that. I feel like I do it now. It's like when you actually set up the metric, it's sort of like, oh, I got to think. Have I spent an hour today connecting? But it's not hard really if you're going out to lunch with a friend or
Kasley Killam (31:25):
Totally, yeah. I mean, I think a phone
Elise (31:28):
Call,
Kasley Killam (31:29):
Yeah, I think the one hour a day, the feedback I get is that's kind of the most intimidating to a lot of people, but it doesn't have to be all at once. It could be small micro moments throughout your day. And also if you think about it to me as a firefly, as more of an introvert, it sounds like too much. But if you think about it, there are 24 hours in every day. So if eight of those are spent sleeping, in an ideal world, if eight of those are spent working in an ideal world, you have eight more hours to figure out how you're spending your time. And I would hope that connection is a priority for some of that time.
Doree (32:05):
What do you advise for people who are in relationships with partners who have their social health is not in the same place, let's say,
Elise (32:18):
Or we have different styles or
Doree (32:20):
Different styles?
Elise (32:21):
Yeah. I mean, I consider myself a butterfly, but my ex-husband, for example, he didn't really, he was a super introvert. So if our social health doesn't match or our styles don't match, what advice do you have?
Kasley Killam (32:37):
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think first is understanding that it's okay to have different styles, and secondly, understanding that for all of us, our social health is going to evolve over time. So if you are feeling in a place in your life where you're really well connected and you have nourishing relationships and you're partner, not so much that's not a permanent state, that's going to change. And maybe offering some suggestions for ways that they can do that or things you can do together as a couple to get them more comfortable, but it's not a permanent state, and that's important. We all experience times in our life when it's more difficult to stay in touch with our friends or we're overwhelmed with parenting or whatever it might be, and it's just harder. So knowing that when one of us is going through a more difficult time, that's not forever, and you can be a really important source of support and love for that person in that time.
Elise (33:33):
As somebody who has been researching this for the bulk of your career, I'd love to know, you mentioned Covid a little earlier in this interview. I'd love to know what the aggregate data now shows now that we're five years on from the start of Covid, what the data shows on how Covid affected our social health as kind of a society, and then what we can do about it. It did feel strange as we were coming out of the pandemic two or three years, depending on what state you lived in after a lot of the quarantines and lockdowns, it did feel kind of strange to be in real life space again with other people. And so I'd love to know what we've learned. I know there is some data on education outcomes for kids, for example, but what about just in terms of social health?
Kasley Killam (34:20):
Yeah. Well, it was so interesting because at the start of the pandemic, obviously I was super concerned. A lot of people in this field were very concerned that people were going to be isolated and therefore lonely. And some research definitely showed that it took a toll on certain groups more than others, especially for example, older adults who were truly isolated and so on. But actually, I was really surprised by some of the data that came out showing that people bounced back more quickly than you would think, and that people were staying connected and getting creative with how to do that. And so while there was this initial dip where people were feeling lonely, struggling with their social health, they actually recovered more quickly than you would think in terms of loneliness. That was a big kind of outcome that was measured a lot. That said, I find that a lot of people are still struggling a little bit socially to recover from the pandemic.
(35:17):
Even now, what is it, five years out? I hear from a lot of people that used to be much more extroverted, that they're a little bit more introverted now than they used to be, or that people are still kind of feeling social anxiety, and maybe not necessarily because worried about catching illnesses, but because there's kind of a sense of rustiness, our social muscles are a little bit weak, and we're still rebuilding them and getting used to being around people. So that's one of the things that, I haven't necessarily seen data for that, but it's something that keeps coming up anecdotally in my conversations with people where I think there are still some of these lasting effects where it's kind of this collective reckoning of how do we go forward and come back together in ways that are healthy and nurturing and relearn those muscles that might still be a little bit weak.
Doree (36:07):
I think also, I think during the pandemic, I set boundaries in a way that I wasn't used to setting before. I was like, no, I'm not going to come hang out with you in your house if you're not going to test. You know what I mean? Just, no, I'm not going to do that. And I think in the past, I hadn't been so good about setting those boundaries, but then when the pandemic kind of ended, I've been like, well, I've learned a lot about myself, and I think my social health looks different now. It's just different. There's certain ways that I want to socialize. And then there's certain ways that I was like, you know what? I didn't really miss that. I didn't really miss having small talk with people. I don't really like having small talk with people, and so going to a party and hanging out with people, I don't know. I actually don't enjoy that. I'm going to do something else. So I think it's like things have changed. It's not necessarily bad, it's just different. I still socialize, but I socialize more on my own terms kind of because I
Kasley Killam (37:14):
Learned that about myself. Yeah, actually love that. Totally. I think that's one of the silver linings of we all kind of had to do some self-reflection coming out of the pandemic and think about what is nurturing? And if you realize, hey, these are the ways that I love connecting and that I leave feeling so energized, and these are the ways that I don't, that's a good thing to know about yourself, and that's a healthy boundary. One of the things I think is important for people to realize is not all connection is good connection. Just socializing for socializing sake isn't necessarily good for you. And in particular, having relationships that are not healthy, that are maybe toxic or abusive, that's not good for you either. We live longer, healthier lives when we have positive relationships and positive connection, not just random connection with anyone necessarily.
Elise (38:04):
And one takeaway for me, which is a different dimension of it, it sounds like what you were saying about covid kind of resonates with Dory and myself in different ways. For me, one thing that I struggle with is that because during Covid, we had lost touch with a lot of our weaker ties. The longer we go without being in touch with those weaker ties, the harder it is to restart those connections. Again, I feel a little bit guilty now reaching out to maybe some of my old colleagues from the newsroom who I used to see daily because we were in the office every day, but somehow I've let five, six years go by without checking in because during Covid, we got really intentional about checking in with our close ties and then less our weaker ties we just happened to see. And so then the longer the time passes, the longer we go without being in touch, the more awkward it is to be like, oh, hey buddy, how are you doing? I feel like that's where, that's kind of another anecdotal data point for you where it's like, oh, this is where I'm struggling to try and come back and recover from.
Kasley Killam (39:12):
Totally. And I think I hear this a lot too from companies who are still trying to figure out, are we hybrid? Are we remote? Are we in person? And that's one of the growing pains of, to your point, gathering around the water cooler that's valuable in ways that we didn't realize before because of those weak ties that are super important too. So yeah, I think a lot of these things we're still trying to iron out, but what's good is that there's heightened attention around it, right? The fact that you even realize that and that we're having this conversation means that we can be more intentional going forward.
Elise (39:47):
Yeah. Okay. Well, going forward is a great way to wrap things up. So Kathleen, what do you want to leave us with as we continue with our series? Exploring friendship?
Kasley Killam (39:59):
Yeah. Oh, love it. Well, I would say friendship in particular is such a beautiful gift, and it's one of the more unique relationships that make up our social health because it's the one that we choose. And so I hope that people come away from this conversation and this series in general, realizing that your friendships are so important. They matter not just for your happiness, but also literally for your health and how long you're going to live. And so invest in them as much as you can. And that could be even through simple gestures or occasional outreach, but as long as you are making sure to prioritize those, you're both going to really benefit.
Doree (40:43):
I love that. Kaley, where can our listeners find you if they want to follow along with your work?
Kasley Killam (40:50):
Sure. So the best way is I write a substack newsletter. You can join that at kaley killam.com/newsletter. You can also find me on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Elise (41:01):
Great. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Kaley Kill. Thank you so much.
Kasley Killam (41:05):
Thank you.
Doree (41:09):
Elise. I have to admit that all this talk of friendship has made me want to show up more. So when you invited me to your birthday dinner, I was like, yes, I'm going to make it happen.
Elise (41:24):
I actually was like, will Dory want to come because it's a lot of NPR people. And then I was like, whatever. I'm inviting Dory and making sure that she's invited even if she doesn't want to come, but I'm so glad that you're going to come.
Doree (41:37):
Yeah, I know. I was like, oh, I will know two people, actually, three people, but that's okay. I'm going out of my comfort zone and it'll be great. So thank you. Friendship month.
Elise (41:52):
Well, yeah, thank you. Friendship Month, because otherwise, Dory might've not come to my birthday dinner,
Doree (41:57):
And I got a text the other night from a woman who I'm friendly with, but not, I wouldn't call us super close friends. We never hung out, but it was from her husband, and it was like, we're throwing a surprise party for this person's birthday on this date. Can you make it? And I was like, yes, I will be there. Good. Awesome. So look at me. I'm just rewiring myself.
Elise (42:26):
I love it. I love it.
Doree (42:27):
We actually have a guest coming up post Friendship Month who we've already spoken to that kind of did a similar thing, so we're continuing on a similar theme. Anyway,
Elise (42:41):
Intention time,
Doree (42:43):
Intention time. This past week, my intention was just my parent visit, and I think it went pretty well. They got to spend a lot of really nice quality time with Henry. Also, my mom will drive in Los Angeles and my dad will not. So having my mom here with my dad, my dad has sometimes come by himself, but having them both here was not just nice, but also helpful.
Elise (43:13):
Yeah.
Doree (43:14):
Yes. So that was amazing, and I think Henry really enjoyed having them here, so that was really nice. This week, my husband and I are on a new Life plan. Oh, what's that? Where we are doing some action items every night. Oh, so
Elise (43:40):
You're running your house kind of a business where you're just like, what are our action items out of this meeting?
Doree (43:47):
It's more like we're discussing our to-do list for the next day, but they're like things not just take out the trash, but it's like, I'm going to call this person who I haven't spoken to in a year. You know what I mean? Because that's been one of my husband's big things. So we've just been talking through that stuff.
Elise (44:09):
Oh, cool.
Doree (44:11):
Yeah.
Elise (44:12):
You can be accountability partners for each other on these
Doree (44:15):
Items. Yeah, I kind of feel like we're accountability partners, and so going, I mean, it's only been three days, but it's been going pretty well. Good. So I want to kind of continue it, so that's my intention for this week. I'll have more on that soon, hopefully. Okay.
Elise (44:32):
I want to hear more about it.
Doree (44:34):
Sure. Yeah.
Elise (44:34):
Well, last week my intention was to be still, but it lasted for three days until I left town and I was so not still. I was just a kinetic atom bouncing around New York City, or not New York City, bouncing around Mexico City.
Doree (44:50):
Wow. You made it to New York also.
Elise (44:52):
I don't even know where I'm half the time. It was so funny because in foreign correspondent life being still was so hard that sometimes I'd show up at the airport and I'd be like, where am I going? I have no idea. And I'd have to look down and be like, oh, yes. I had to cover so much of Japan and so much of Korea. So being still was great for three days and I'm going to reset that as an intention in the coming weeks. But this week I have something way more simple, which is just to exercise again. I've had my stomach bug since coming back, so I just have been kind of splayed out and I would just like to move again, play some tennis this weekend, or go for a jog. I love that. My intentions are quite simple. I'm not setting the bar too high.
Doree (45:43):
No, I think setting the bar low turns out is kind of the key to life.
Elise (45:50):
Just getting through the day. Yes,
Doree (45:52):
Just getting through the day. Exactly. Who did? We spoke to someone recently who was like, myself, Bridget, Todd, Bridget, Todd. Just getting through the day. I was like, yeah, I respect that. Well, thanks everyone for listening, for writing in. We appreciate you and a reminder that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partners, Acast. Talk to you soon.
Elise (46:26):
Bye bye. Bye.