Episode 340: How to Invest In Your Friendships with Rhaina Cohen
Elise prepares for her birthday weekend in Mexico City and Doree witnesses the perils of rain in LA!
Then, they invite Rhaina Cohen, author of The Other Significant Others, on to discuss why prioritizing friendship doesn’t mean being anti-marriage, the power of “just ask” in building your relationship with new and old friends, the balance of showing up for and leaning on your friends, and how to more actively invest in existing friendships and cultivate new ones.
Mentioned in this Episode
The Other Significant Others by Rhaina Cohen
Connect with Rhaina Cohen
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode Ai generated.
Doree (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree (00:22):
Welcome to the show.
Elise (00:24):
Welcome. Yes, it is the continuation of Friendship Month here at Forever 35. Last week we had the brilliant Anna Gold Farm who talked to us about kind of the pillars of friendship, the ways to stay connected, the bathtub analogy. I thought that was very useful and yes, I'm just basking in the glow of friendship and thinking about this important connection in our lives.
Doree (00:52):
Yeah, it's, it's such a great theme and something that I've been thinking a lot about this year, especially. Elise, how are you?
Elise (01:06):
I'm great because by the time this comes out, it will officially be my birthday and ideally I will have spent a great weekend with my friends in See You to De Mexico. So I'm really excited. There's people that are from various eras and different places in the world of my life that are coming together and all in one city that is one of the most sophisticated and beautiful cities in the world. So really excited about that and hopefully I will still feel that way by the time this airs. A few days in the future.
Doree (01:40):
Yes. Well, happy early birthday since we're recording this, before your birthday, and I hope you have a wonderful trip to Mexico.
Elise (01:49):
Thank you. Thank you. It is also Michael Jordan's birthday and Paris Hilton.
Doree (01:56):
Okay. I share a birthday with Janet Jackson and Tori Spelling.
Elise (02:00):
Okay. Oh, those are good ones. Those were good ones. Oh yes. Rob's onetime girlfriend, not Janet Jackson. Tory spelling,
Doree (02:07):
When I worked at Buzzfeed, there were, at one point there were five of us with the same birthday with my birthday.
Elise (02:14):
Oh, how fun.
Doree (02:15):
Isn't that funny? And then also in my mommy and Me class, when Henry was a baby, there were three babies born on my birthday.
Elise (02:25):
Oh, that's really special. Especially because your birthday's in May, right? You're a Taurus.
Doree (02:30):
Yes, yes.
Elise (02:31):
So it's interesting because the most common month for birthdays is not spring. It is September.
Doree (02:38):
September, right? Yeah. Because people have sex on new
Elise (02:42):
Yeah, that or just the holidays in general, but September, mid-September birthdays are the most common birthdays according to our data.
(02:55):
And so February and May are less cool, I guess less common. So it's kind of cool that you had so many people to share yours with. When I was in the Texas Press Corps where I covered the Texas legislature, the Press Corps itself is not that big. I want to say like 25 people. But in the Press Corps, three of us shared February 17th as our birthday. So we would have this big party for where we invited lawmakers and lobbyists and everybody together. We'd have this three-way birthday party, and it was such an event. We did it for four or five years while we were all in one place. That was really special.
Doree (03:33):
Oh, that's so fun. My sister's birthday's in May. My nephew and I have the same birthday, so there's a lot of family birthdays
(03:42):
And
(03:43):
Then there's also friend birthdays, and then there's also just a lot of shit that happens in May, graduations, mother's Day, Memorial Day. There's just a lot of stuff in May
(03:55):
It seems.
(03:57):
So it's sort of like a weirdly busy month.
Elise (04:01):
Oh, it totally is. That's when everything snowballs. I think we talked about this. I came on the show as a co-host, I think around that time end of May, beginning of June last year.
Doree (04:11):
And it
Elise (04:12):
A time where everything just compounds and snowballs and rolls on top of each other.
Doree (04:16):
It's fine. I'm fine. Really. I'm fine.
(04:20):
Doree's fine. Doree's fine.
(04:21):
Everything's fine. Everything's fine.
Elise (04:23):
She can plan out her may just fine. Yes,
Doree (04:26):
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, it's raining here in LA today. And rain is always, I dunno, we definitely need rain, but just getting around la Not much. Not too much.
Elise (04:41):
I know it's a weird challenge. Well, not too, because now there's a risk of mudslides, and so you have these micro climatologists who are in the burn scar in Altadena who are concerned that you're going to have mudslides come down from the San Gabriel Mountain, and now everybody's looking out for that. So hopefully we can avoid a second natural disaster on the tail end of the previous natural disaster from last month.
Doree (05:07):
I would really, really like that.
Elise (05:11):
Just a break. Yes. But it does feel like we've been in perma crisis for a long time. I know,
Doree (05:17):
I know.
Elise (05:18):
And that's really hard psychologically.
Doree (05:21):
Yeah, it is kind of challenging psychologically. My parents are supposed to fly in tonight.
Elise (05:27):
They should be able to, right,
Doree (05:30):
Right. When it gets pretty bad. So I don't know if they're going to be delayed or what, but they were like, well, if we're delayed, we'll take an Uber. And they're supposed to land at like 10 30, so they're already landing kind of late. And I just hate driving in the rain here. And I was like, I don't really want to drive to lax and bag to pick. Oh,
Elise (05:52):
You're right. But no traffic at that hour, you're going to be smooth sailing.
Doree (05:57):
I don't know. I've had to drive late at night in the rain a bunch lately for some reason. And it's not as traffic free as you would think. Partly because literally I've seen the last, I was out last week at night and I saw three accidents. Oh my gosh. A car that an plane, nobody knows how to drive in the rain. No one here knows how to drive. So yeah, maybe there aren't as many people out, but the people who are out are driving like idiots.
Elise (06:26):
We had torrential rainstorms in Texas. We called it raining a turd floater, like it's raining a turd floater out there. And so I'm totally used to that and lightning storms and thunderstorms. But palm fronds getting onto the 4 0 5, just all over the 4 0 5 just debris that you're having to dodge, that's new to me.
Doree (06:47):
And palm fronds are heavier than you would think. They're very heavy. Yeah. The other issue is that the drainage in LA is bad. So the water pool, the second it starts raining, there's flooding on every corner including, and the freeways are also get semi flooded. So it's just not like an ideal situation. So I'm hopeful that everything will be fine, but I am also sort of bracing myself for tonight. Drive
Elise (07:23):
Safe. Drive safe out there, drive safe out there, everyone, because there's snowstorm, there's snow blanketing parts of the United States, and gosh, it's just the whole start to 2025 has felt like a lot. We hope you're taking good care of yourselves.
Doree (07:40):
It's been a lot. It's been a lot. Well, should we introduce our guest?
Elise (07:46):
Yes. I'm really thrilled too. We have Rena Cohen on today, and Rena and I worked together. We overlapped at NPR, but as she pointed out before our conversation, I was always on the other side of the world. So it's not like we were colleagues, but we weren't in the same office. We weren't breathing the same air. You've probably seen a lot of her work lately because her book came out last year and it has a really important idea in it. And that's why our conversation is about the value of friendship as a relationship type rather than actionable tips for friendship in the way that some of our other conversations may go. She is a producer and editor for the NPR documentary podcast, embedded her debut book, the Other Significant Others, tells the stories of people who have a friendship close enough to be a life partnership and how these devoted friendships can help us rethink romance commitment and the meaning of family. She received support to work on the book from the National Endowment of the Humanities Public Scholars Program. Reyna previously covered the social sciences as a producer at Hidden Brain. She's written freelance stories centered on gender policy and friendship for all kinds of places. The Atlantic, the Washington Post and others. And before entering public radio, she was a Marshall Scholar at Oxford where she received a master's in comparative social policy. She's a very thoughtful, thoughtful woman.
Doree (09:14):
I think she offers such an interesting perspective on friendship and just the way she lives her life I think is so interesting. Before we get to Rena, just a reminder that our website forever 35 podcast.com has links to everything we mention on the show. We're on Instagram at Forever 35 podcast on our patreon patreon.com/forever three five. We do our weekly casual chats, our monthly pop culture roundups. We have a forever 35 questionnaire, which is like bonus questions with our guests. We have chats,
(09:47):
We
(09:47):
Have ad free episodes. I mean we have a good time. It's a party. It's a party over there. We have a good time. You can shop our favorite products at shop my us slash forever five and sign up for our newsletter at Forever 35 podcast. Do com slash newsletter and please call or text us at seven one five nine one zero three nine zero and email us at Forever 30 Podcast gmail. And just a reminder that we are taking questions about friendship that last week's guest, Anna Goldfarb is going to be responding to at the end of the month. So please send in your questions about friendship, keep 'em coming, voicemail, text, email, it doesn't matter. And Anna, we'll be back to answer them. I
Elise (10:25):
Can't wait.
Doree (10:26):
And we'll be right back with Reyna.
Elise (10:28):
We'll be right back. Reyna Cohen, welcome to Forever 35.
Rhaina Cohen (10:40):
Really happy to get to talk to you, both of you.
Elise (10:42):
Me too. Both of us are super excited to dive into friendship. You are part of our special series on friendship and however, we are still starting our interviews the same way as we always do, which is what is something that you are doing for yourself that you consider?
Rhaina Cohen (11:01):
So I think that there are kind of typical answers. I do power yoga, whatever, but I was actually thinking about the way that I structure my life in these bigger ways, like I observe Shabbat or co-living are ways that I feel like lead to self-care because they make the things that bring joy to my life easier. As an example, last night after getting home from an errand at 6 45, I was like, crap, I haven't cooked dinner. I was supposed to do this. And then my housemate ended up making a big meal and was like, do you want dinner? And then everybody happened to be home and a friend was over too. And we just, the five of us sat down for dinner and I didn't have to worry about anything. And a couple nights prior my housemate was playing on the piano, asked if I wanted to sing, and then my husband came down the stairs and then he sang and then my other housemate through the door. So I think of the kind of life setup I have as making it possible to have more social connection and also alleviate some of the drudgery of life that I find not that fun. So that feels like what self-care looks like for me.
Elise (12:10):
Yeah, that's really lovely. You mentioned connection and really orienting around connection. So we have already introduced you and the title of your book, but why don't we give you some space to just kind of give us the stump speech. Give us the central argument that you landed at after your years of exploring friendship and why we should center it.
Rhaina Cohen (12:33):
Really, I'm arguing that friendship has untapped potential and that we undermine friendship by expecting too little of it. And really at the same time, I think undermine romantic relationships by expecting too much. And I found this by looking at people who have friendships that are so devoted that they really resemble romantic relationships and they show that we really could ask much more of our friends and that the things that we expect only to get in a romantic relationship like connection, like caregiving actually can happen within platonic relationships.
Doree (13:10):
And how have you seen that in your own life?
Rhaina Cohen (13:14):
Well, the thing that got me to this book is a very close friend and the two of us when we met and for the first couple years of our friendship when we were living right near each other, to both of us, it felt like even the term best friend was insufficient. We were just much more involved in each other's lives than I had experienced in a friendship before. I mean, Elise and I talking about both being at NPR, my friend had come to NPR quite a bit, including two office holiday parties, got to know my colleagues and they were so sad when she ended up leaving the country for grad school for a couple of years, which is not, I think the typical way that maybe people think about a friend being involved in your life. And we just sort of knew the ins and outs of each other's minds and lives and families and loved ones. And so that pointed me to this realization that the friendship could be much bigger and that it also wasn't just us. I saw other people in my life who had these friendships. I was vaguely aware of some history of friendship being much deeper. So yeah, I realize that we have placed unnecessary limits on friendship and don't understand how enriching it can be and instead kind of treat it as this lesser type of relationship.
Elise (14:34):
And you landed at labeling this, right? You're calling it platonic partnerships, but previously there wasn't really a name for this type of relationship. If you are in a platonic partnership, and thank you. I mean, it's good that writers like you and authors like you are trying to give us a license and give us a language around these types of relationships because I think many of us can recognize those in our own lives but then can't describe them. So now that you've landed on it, how do we make it more of a cultural norm? And then how do we seek out these kinds of relationships too?
Rhaina Cohen (15:12):
I mean, I think we can make it more of a norm by asking more of the friends in our lives and asking more of ourselves within friendships being more proactive. And some of it can be kind of simple like integrating people into your everyday life. I have a recurring time to meet one of my friends. It used to be Monday nights when her husband was at choir practice and she was home with the kid. And I would just go over to her place and we've adjusted it because now she's on maternity leave. But we've kept the same principal. That's something very small to decide that you are going to show how much you value a friendship by putting it on your calendar. Basically. I think there are more ambitious or more demanding ways that we can orient our lives around friends. I'm experiencing a version of the style, a group of us are trying to buy property together in DC where I live.
(16:10):
And it's a big project and it feels a little bit like we're kind of going through this dating process of figuring out do we want to live with these people for years and make this big commitment? But for us, we want to be able to live lives for the long term that are not isolated. And where we are kind of resisting this idea that in order to be a full adult, what you need is to get married and then go find a house where it's just the two of you and your kids or your dog and you have a backyard and you've got some fancy appliances in your kitchen and that means that you've made it. I think it's about a willingness to ask what actually would you enjoy? What would a good day in your life look like 10 years from now? And for us, that means being able to walk next door into our friend's house or have them be living upstairs. So I think that's maybe a more extreme thing for people to consider, that you can build your life around your friends.
Doree (17:14):
Can you also touch on what this has looked like historically? Has there been a time when friendship did not look kind of the way it does now and people were seeking out these types of arrangements?
Rhaina Cohen (17:29):
The way that we treat friendship now I think is actually a total historical anomaly. The story, this is very entangled in marriage. So if you're looking hundreds of years ago, I mean really only a couple hundred years ago, marriage was something that in-laws arranged for their kids. And it is still the case in many parts of the world and in certain communities that marriage is really an economic institution. You are lucky if love was part of it. I mean, if you've watched Bridger 10, you see how big of a deal it is to have a love match. And if you have a relationship where one person is the property of another person, which was the case until basically the mid 20th century in the us, it's hard to have a lot of the kinds of friendly relations that you would expect now between spouses where people talk about their spouses, their best friend.
(18:25):
So in the past, instead of having a spouse be your best friend and be all and end all, you would have very intimate same-sex friendships. And one term for this has been romantic friendships. And you see these both between same-sex friends, between men and between women. And there are even farther back in history, men would go through these rituals in churches that would turn them into brothers. It was called sworn brotherhood. It was one of the main rites that you would have in Christianity. There were ceremonies and rituals that were built around friendship. It wasn't just a private relationship between two people. It could be publicly acknowledged and it wasn't by definition inferior to a romantic relationship or a marriage. And that could be what the main source of your intimacy in life rather than the person who you were basically assigned to go procreate with.
Elise (19:22):
Have you run into counter arguments to what you've been saying out there and have they been surprising to you? I'm curious now that the book has been out almost a year where the life of this case is, and especially against the backdrop of a resurgent Christian nuclear family argument that we're seeing a lot among people in power.
Rhaina Cohen (19:52):
I've been accused of being anti-marriage, which was something I was expecting, which I, I'm married by the end of this year, I will have officiated three weddings. I'm not an anti-marriage person, but I think that that is, if there's a critique in the book of the way that we venerate marriage and romantic relationships and the way that our laws reinforce a hierarchy and make the winners win even more by heaping benefits on spouses. And there are people who are very concerned about the retreat for marriage in places like the US that marriage rates have declined, people are getting married later, and for them anything that indicates that there are viable alternatives to marriage that you can be happy with other ways of constructing life is concerning or is threatening. And so that's where I've gotten some pushback. I actually got less than I expected and it was important.
(21:00):
I mean, I can think of a person who had a book come out the same day as mine and his book was called Get Married. It's like a slightly different argument than what I'm making, but I will just say that I am really trying to approach this from a pluralistic perspective. I am not saying that friendship has been outcast for a long time, but really it is the best relationship. And marriage sucks. I don't believe in replacing one hierarchy with another. I think people are so different and where they get a sense of meaning and what a good life looks like differs. And it is just a real fact about how life is right now that many people have a friendship that is the most significant relationship of their life, despite everything about our culture and society and laws pushing against that. And it was also important to me in the book to depict people who were conservative and to show that this is, and people who were not ideological about having these kinds of friendships but fell into them. So I feel pretty lucky that I've gotten some pushback, but I'm not barnstorming and saying, go and throw out your wedding rings and disparage everybody who's married. I think it's more about provoking questions about what really matters. And can we just question some of the assumptions we have as a society?
Elise (22:24):
Yeah. The defaults challenging the defaults. Reyna, you write part of this book, obviously you weave in your own experiences and your friendship with M or who you call M and also your living arrangements. So you mentioned where you're at now, you're now trying to buy a home with other folks. But talk a little bit about how you've been living in a way that is more considered, more unconventional.
Rhaina Cohen (22:52):
So now in the middle of, I guess middle of 2021, my husband and I moved in with two of our good friends and their child and it ended up, it was a kind of unexpected decision, I think, especially on our friends part. But we became extremely close with the friends that we lived with. I mean, my husband and I are going to spend time with them in a couple of weeks. They now live in New York. We have a connection with the kids. It's total when you've known a child since day one and you've lived
Elise (23:26):
With
Rhaina Cohen (23:26):
Them for Yeah,
Elise (23:26):
It feels parental
Rhaina Cohen (23:29):
And it's helped us develop a really special relationship. And then they moved out this summer and my husband and I persuaded a friend to move to DC to live with us. Then another friend who got a job in the administration has moved in as well, hashtag DC stuff. Though people I'm living with now are now part of a larger group of friends who are trying to figure out what does it look like to buy property together? And particularly looking toward raising kids in a way that's more, that's not isolating that, that's a really unfortunate thing that I think parents assume has to be the case in the US that you've got to go it alone.
Elise (24:12):
Yeah, it's such a precarious unit of the nuclear family.
Rhaina Cohen (24:16):
Well, I think it's like, so you were asking about the critiques I had or people pushing against it, and there's this kind of math argument that two parents are better than one or two parents have more stability than one and more money and so on. And it's like, well, why not three or four, why are we stopping at two? Why is two the magic number? But that is enough to take care of children in a household and maybe aging parents and so on. And I think what my friends and I are attempting to do is just a slightly different version of what I see of a multi-generational household or more extended family. My brothers, my brother lives with his wife and my father and my sister-in-law's parents who moved from China to help raise their grandchild. And yeah, it's a version of the same thing, but one looks more traditional. But I think some of the underlying principles of we need more support and care than even what a nuclear family household can offer.
Elise (25:23):
Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree (25:32):
Can we go back to talking about the idea of the platonic partner friendship? One thing that I'm hearing from you is that friendships often take work and care and intentionality in a way that we might not be accustomed to. I think for a lot of us, we just sort of see friendships as things that happen. We just sort of meet people and become friendly and that's kind of it. And we don't need to think about it beyond that. And so I'm wondering, what would you recommend for people who want to cultivate those closer friendships that they might not have?
Rhaina Cohen (26:12):
I mean, one thing that comes to mind is these kind of ingredients of attachment that a researcher told me about, which are time, togetherness, and touch. And this applies to any kind of really close relationship. So it can be parent, child, romantic relationship, also friendship. And so one thing is find ways to spend a lot of time with another person. A lot of our closest friendships often came from school or a camp environment, something that's intense. So being bold and willing to ask people to maybe spend more than just a couple hours at a coffee shop is one way to get closer. And then on the togetherness part, I think of it as you are living life alongside each other that you aren't just kind of narrating what has happened to you in the past. And that can be something as simple as running errands together.
(27:08):
And then you'll probably have some kind of funny or interesting experiences or things that you can recall along the way. And then the touch pieces, like being physical connection matters. And I have seen in different ways how people often want more physical intimacy in their friendships, but are afraid to ask for it because they don't know that other people want it as well. And not everybody wants the same thing. But I think there's maybe a recurring theme here is being willing to initiate and being willing to be rejected. Frankly, that is part of it, that people would rather play it safe, even if that means suffering, the consequences of not getting closer to people. And I think that some of the friendships that I know that really fast tracked and also got very, very close involved, somebody taking a lot of initiative or making an overture.
(28:07):
One friend invited another that she barely knew to join her and her siblings for vacation for a little bit. And that friend was like, yeah, sure, I'll come along. Or some other friends that I know, one of them, they both do some woodworking and one has a garage where she could help the other with the project she was working on. And then they ended up spending a bunch of afternoons together, refinishing a table, and then that just sort of spun out into more and more things. And so that sometimes means asking people to say things they might say no to.
Elise (28:37):
Yeah, this is such an important point because I'm always down to drive people to the airport. There's folks who come into town, I have friends who are from DC or New York or whatever, and come into town and they only are in town for a day or two for meetings and don't have time to actually do a formal sit down face-to-face, catch over a meal or a coffee or something. But what I like to do is the old airport ride catch. And it's an opportunity for us to be in the car for 15, 20 minutes one way and then, or I have to go pick them up from wherever there is. So maybe it's longer, but it's an opportunity to do a catch up. But I feel as though a lot of folks wouldn't ask or don't ask because it seems like an imposition, but it's actually a love language for me and an opportunity for me to catch up with my friends. And so it's almost we, I just want to buttress your point, which is just ask,
Rhaina Cohen (29:34):
And some people love helping in this way, and also you're saying that, I know you don't have a lot of time, but I want to do whatever I can to make sure we still get to see each other.
(29:49):
And yeah, you're reminding me of an experience where I met someone who I just totally clicked with in Denver, which I don't know, next time I'll be there. And she just drove me to, we just had an hour together, she drove me to the airport and we're like, we don't know. We'll get to see each other again. But we had an amazing conversation and we were just texting recently, and I don't remember even who asked if that was offered or I asked it, but I think that would not have come about maybe a few years ago. But now that I've come to realize that you don't want friendship to be transactional. Sometimes people should just give things. And that instead of being an imposition that you then have to make up is actually something that tells you that you want to be become closer and that maybe we jump to this assumption that things are burdens when actually they are indicators that you are excited to be with another person.
Elise (30:46):
So for all my friends who are listening, I'm always down to give you a ride to the airport.
Doree (30:52):
I love that. I love that so much. That's so much. Yeah. First of all, what a thoughtful thing because in la, giving someone a ride to the airport is an hour instead of 15 minutes, a very intense thing to do. So that already is a true sign of friendship. But I love this idea of taking opportunities to cultivate friendship in ways that might not seem immediately obvious. It's not just like, oh, we must get dinner and drinks or whatever. It's like, oh, we can actually have a meaningful conversation where we reconnect over a ride to the airport.
Elise (31:36):
Yeah. Time, togetherness and touch.
Doree (31:38):
Yes, yes. I love that so much. Rena, I want to ask you about how you think social media, and I think I'm really specifically talking about TikTok is affecting friendship. And I have been thinking about this because I was just reading an article in Vox today. I sent this to Elise about how protecting your peace, and I'm using air quotes for that phrase, can destroy your friendships because it makes people conflict avoidant and too quick to cut people out of their lives. And that these are ideas that are spreading on TikTok. And so this is kind of a two-parter, and if this is too much to tackle at once, totally fine.
Rhaina Cohen (32:18):
Mostly I'm like, oh, what do I know about TikTok? But I'll try.
Doree (32:22):
Well, I'm wondering, I guess I'm wondering if you have seen what you have seen in terms of social media trends influencing friendship, and I guess that's probably most applicable to Gen Z, although it's probably spreading among other generations as well. And also if could speak to this idea of protecting your peace or protecting your mental health, and then what it might also do to
Rhaina Cohen (32:47):
Friendship. I feel like I've seen things that are pretty pushing in the opposite direction when the question about me putting a label to these kinds of friendships and they didn't exist before. I have Google alerts on different terms, like platonic life partner, and there were some people on TikTok who made these viral videos about their platonic life partner that got a bunch of attention. And people who are, I mean, I send things all the time from TikTok and Instagram where people are talking about how friendship can be romantic or how friends can be the most important person in your life. So I actually have seen quite a lot that is showing is pointing to this idea that friendship can really matter. And then I think the flip side is maybe the, I don't know, for lack of a better term, therapy speak, that is very integrated into social media now, people talking about
(33:50):
Boundaries and have very loose ideas of when one should apply boundaries. So any sign of discomfort. And that gets applied to friendships as well. I mean, another thing that I'm thinking of is Derek Thompson just had a piece in The Atlantic where he talked about a bunch of TikTok videos that are where young people are talking about how happy they are when people like a friend cancels on them and that they're relieved to be free to those plans. And it's a little bit like, I dunno, I mean it's funny at first, but do we really, given the state of how much time people are spending alone and report being lonely is being excited that your friends canceled actually the direction or something that we wanted to celebrate. So I think I've seen some of that as well, but I'm not sure which outweighs, because all this, it's just algorithms too. I get sent stuff that is much more friendship than let me protect my life and not let people in who are going to be toxic or that sort of thing.
Elise (35:03):
Yeah, that makes sense. The other dimension of it, and the fact that we're all growing up on screens or young people are growing up on screens, is togetherness and touch are components of building friendship and proximity has always been really important for social bonds. Right? Does it count when it's virtual?
Rhaina Cohen (35:27):
I mean, I think it does for a lot of people. And I try to, again on the different things for different people. Some people have found their closest friends virtually or wouldn't have been able to meet anybody who's like them in let's say a small town where nobody
(35:49):
Agrees with them on this, that, or the other. So I don't want to discount that. But I think if you are replacing opportunities for in-person time again and again with virtual experiences that at the very least it might be worth testing out, what if I did a few things in person with people that I might otherwise do online? And do I feel any different? I mean, I am a person who's all about connecting with others, but I still sometimes have to drag myself out to go to, I do swing dance and I will be lazy about it and then, or I will sometimes skip it or will be have to trudge in 20 degree weather. And then when I'm there, I'm so happy and I have to remind myself I will be happier once I'm there and it's going to take some work to get there. So I understand that there are ways spending time virtually that are easier, more accessible, but I really don't think it's a full replacement for what happens when you're face-to-face with people. And I think we also know this from the pandemic people were not that there were ways some people got to connect more with others they wouldn't have from far away. But I don't think a lot of people came out of the pandemic being like, you know what? I don't need to see anybody in person anymore. I was totally sated with the screen. Really good point. The social media stuff, were you seeing strong messages that were all like, everything virtual is fine, or don't prioritize your friends? No, no, no. Separate question. Totally.
Doree (37:36):
No, no, no. And you touched on this. What I have seen a lot of is discussions of boundaries. And I think also the whole concept of self-care has been discussed as sort of a double-edged sword. People not showing up for friends or doing things because they need to take care of themselves. And it's hard to say is that of course that is probably very real if someone has anxiety or whatever, who cares what it is. But there are very real reasons for people to not want to participate in social interactions. But I think what people are now starting to say is like, well, there's also a cost to that and that if you don't want to hang out with your friends because you're depressed, well, there's actually also research that shows that it helps alleviate depression when you do leave your house and see your friends and care for other people. So I think all of these ideas are complicated. That's what I'm sort of personally wrestling with.
Rhaina Cohen (38:50):
Yeah. I also think there's something important there about how sometimes the very people or moments in your life when you most need other people around you are at least motivated to do it. And totally, how do you get out of that kind of bind? And maybe that's like your friends come to you or need to have, we need to have an understanding that sometimes we need to go check in on people. And that is part of what being a good friend is and not necessarily expecting that at every given moment, someone's going to have the wherewithal to seek out what they need from the friendship.
Doree (39:29):
And I know for me personally, the nature of my friendships has changed because I think I used to not demand enough from my friendships, and so I did not know how to be such a great friend. And so I didn't have friends who are that great to me either. Whereas now I think I'm a little more aware of all of that. And so the people in my life are more likely to show up and I'm more likely to lean on them. My friends from the past, I never wanted to ask anything of them because I didn't think I actually, they would show up for me.
Rhaina Cohen (40:10):
And so you're preempting disappointment.
Doree (40:12):
Exactly. Whereas now I just text Elise
Rhaina Cohen (40:18):
And I to the airport and give her ride to the airport. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I do think that that is really, it's really powerful to have models of what a great friend can be in the same way that if someone has never had a decent romantic relationship or hasn't seen anybody around them have a decent romantic relationship, they will settle for things that aren't good and maybe not act in ways that are what they're most capable of in the best situation. So yeah, I'm glad that you were able to find your way to friends who have both made you a better friend and have allowed you to get what you deserved.
Doree (41:01):
Yeah. Look, I mean, it's a work in progress, but I feel like I'm, at least being cognizant of it, I think is, and taking steps to sort of make it better is important.
Elise (41:13):
And this is a great seg to let you wrap up, Rena, with a lot of the things that we've already kind of talked about or touched on. But because we do often as a society unintentionally diminish the value of our friendships and our friends, how do we more actively invest in our existing friendships? And for those of us who are adults and want to cultivate new ones, what do you say to us?
Rhaina Cohen (41:45):
I always think of a question that somebody that I interviewed for the book just ended up asking himself. He has a platonic partnership, so very close friendship and therefore knows how deep a friendship can be. And he started to ask about the other friendships in his life, what is the fullest version of this friendship? And he has found different answers to that. And one was co-working with friends once a week and getting to spend time at their house as part of that. And I think looking at the friendships in your life and figuring out is where that friendship is, where you want it to be. And if not, what is the kind of most vibrant form of it? And being really creative about how you would get there is something that we can do. And I think that there's a level of reflection about friendship that we're not even used to or having meta conversations within your friendships, which we are expected to do in romantic relationships. But how often do you talk to your friends about your friendship and how it's doing? I think bringing meta conversation into friendship is one thing that I would recommend.
Doree (42:59):
Yes. I love that so much. And it kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier about having to put in, I hesitate to call it work because that makes it sound so negative, but intentionality I think is how I want to kind of think about it into your friendships. Effort. Effort, effort is a great one. Yes. Reyna, where can our listeners find you if they want to follow along with your work?
Rhaina Cohen (43:24):
So I wrote a book that is called The Other Significant Others, Re-Imagining Life with Friendship at the Center. I also have a newsletter that I occasionally write some things in that's called Related, and it's just you search my first name, Reyna on Substack, and also my name at Rena Cohen on Instagram. I think that's the places on the internet where I am. And then I also do periodically I write for The Atlantic about these sorts of issues.
Doree (43:54):
Great. Well, thank you so much. It was so great to have you on
Rhaina Cohen (43:56):
To more meta conversation and drives to the airport from friends.
Doree (44:04):
All right. I love how each of our guests offers a unique take on friendship and has made me think about friendship in so many different ways.
Elise (44:15):
Yeah, it's a really enriching month that we're having, and I felt that way about menopause, midlife and menopause month too. So
Doree (44:22):
Totally
Elise (44:23):
Can't wait to figure out what our next theme month is going to be. We haven't decided.
Doree (44:27):
I know. Very cool. Well, now we are in the intention zone, and last week my intention was to enjoy friendship because I had a good friend coming into town and I did. We had a great weekend. I got to see her a bunch. I got to see her and with a group, and it was just really nice. So intention fulfilled. Fantastic. Yeah, I think I mentioned this at the beginning of January where I was like, I have a really crazy six weeks coming up. It was like tennis tournament, Palm Springs, my friend coming into town, my parents coming into town, and this weekend is my parents coming into town. So I am just going to try to enjoy my parent visit and be grateful that they are here and able to visit me, and hopefully they'll be able to spend some quality time with Henry. Yeah. How about you? How is the content producing factory going for
Elise (45:35):
You? Oh gosh. I have asked for a deadline, extension fair. I've never felt so overloaded with things I have to write. And to be fair, I've never written a screenplay and I didn't know just how hard it was. I mean, I knew it was hard just anecdotally from people talking about how hard it is, but
(45:57):
Right now that I'm actually doing it and I finished it. So the good news is I finished it, but it needs a polish. And so I asked for another week so that I can give it the attention that it deserves and really think through some places that aren't quite working. And so yeah, I did fulfill the intention. I'm just not quite done yet with the deadline. I haven't quite met my deadline responsibilities. So intention and the specific assignments are different. And then this week I want to be still, I would like my intention is to be still, because I do feel like we're in this, everything's on fire every day kind of psychological space as a country, and it's very exhausting. And so we have a long weekend coming up. By this time this airs, it will be the end of the long weekend. But during the long weekend and beyond, I think just finding time to be still is my intention because we do have to be pretty intentional about that
Doree (46:58):
In
Elise (46:58):
This era and in this world we live in.
Doree (47:03):
I like that. I mean, it'll be tough. Yeah. Well, thanks everyone for listening. And a reminder that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir, Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everybody. See you next time. Bye.