Episode 324: Becoming Friends with Yourself with Meghan Keane

Full Episodes
Written By Forever 35 Podcast

Doree and Elise welcome Meghan Keane (founder and managing producer for NPR's Life Kit) to the podcast to discuss the bad dates that helped inspire her book Party Of One, her Pomodoro technique for becoming comfortable with spending time alone, the importance of converting venting sessions into a problem-solving discussion, and how her skin is so glowy.

Transcript

 

*Transcripts are AI generated

Doree:                Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.

Elise:                   And I'm Elise Hugh, and we are just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.

Doree:                It's true.

Elise:                   It's True.

Doree:                We relaunched everything last week.

Elise:                   We sure did. Welcome to any new listeners, and welcome back to our loyal listeners, returning listeners. I

Doree:                Was so touched by everyone's comments on Instagram, on our Patreon, just messages we've been getting, so thank you so much for

Elise:                   All of that. Yeah. This show has been around for, gosh, six and a half years, right?

Doree:                Yeah,

Elise:                   Man, y'all really built it from just an idea into a force, so it's just a privilege for me, like I've said on the show, but also to you privately. It's a privilege to join in the cohost seat and thank you. Yeah, it's just been so much fun this summer, but also warm and inviting, getting to know the community and for y'all to kind of ride with us and all of our consumer interests and preferences.

Doree:                I know, I It's so sweet.

Elise:                   Yeah. People have been on the lookout for the non witch that I am really obsessed with

Doree:                And the tofu scramble.

Elise:                   And the tofu scramble. Okay. I just want to be clear, the tofu scramble that disappeared is not the A e's gluten-free tofu scramble because I lot you hear that everybody have spotted that in the wild and that has never gone away. The one that I really want is the gluten full. They don't put gluten full on the wrapper, but they just omit a label of gluten-free on it, and that's what I can't find. I miss it so much.

Doree:                Yes, yes. Yeah. We've been getting a bunch of people emailing us about this and so nice excuse being like, I don't think it's the right one.

Elise:                   I see it every time and it plays a trick on me because I'll walk past the burrito section and think I see the gluten full tofu scramble, but it's just

Doree:                Gluten. It's

Elise:                   Just not as good because the wrapper is too spongy or something. It's not quite right. Even the scramble formulation is a little bit different, so I'm still searching, but if you all have found the version with gluten, then send it to us, email us, text us, leave a comment on our Patreon, and I will go hunt that down and buy them in bulk. I don't care where they are. I'm going for it.

Doree:                Okay. Okay.

Elise:                   What's going on with you? Give me the update.

Doree:                What is going on with me?

Elise:                   We're in anxious October.

Doree:                Yes, we are in anxious October. Wait, what is anxious? October.

Elise:                   It's the last month before election day.

Doree:                Oh, yes.

Elise:                   It happens every four years. My anxious October, and I'm riding the polar coaster.

Doree:                Some people don't

Elise:                   Do this.

Doree:                I was going to say, are you someone who is obsessively looking at poles all the time?

Elise:                   I don't look at individual poles. I look at polling averages. I'll look at those just to see any larger trends, but this presidential race has been so neck and neck, so tight all along, so I'm not seeing even after that Excellent debate performance and what was unanimously considered a win by Kamala. It didn't really even seem to move the numbers that much.

Doree:                No, it didn't.

Elise:                   So the polling really

Doree:                Isn't true. Okay, so you are, I'm just sort of like, I don't know. I'm ignoring all, not deliberately. I think I haven't made a conscious choice not to look at it. It's like noise to me because it feels like every day, it's like some poll saying something completely opposite to what we just saw three days ago, and I feel like I sort of tune it out.

Elise:                   This is how I feel about the studies on caffeine and coffee one day coffee is good for you and you have to drink seven cups of it totally. The next day coffee is awful for you. You really need to cut back on your coffee intake.

Doree:                And

Elise:                   Then at one point, I mean this is like 20 years ago, I was like, what exactly is the right amount?

Doree:                No one knows of caffeine that's supposed to have one. What is the optimal about? No one knows. No one knows. I mean, and to me, the polls just seem like it's a way for these polling companies just make a lot of money. They're just constantly doing these polls and what do they really tell us? I don't know. And also everything in 2016 was totally wrong, so just, I don't know. I do kind of tune it out, I think.

Elise:                   Yeah. But if you were feeling anxious this anxious October and want to channel your energies, one way you can do it is to help us in our Giving Circle campaign.

Doree:                Yes.

Elise:                   We're continuing to work with the State's project, which focuses specifically on legislative races, and then we as a Forever35 family voted on Arizona as the state whose legislature we want to try and flip, and Arizona is one of the iest of swing states, so there's a lot of energy being devoted to our neighboring state of Arizona here. And listeners, if you want to participate in our Giving circle, we put a banner right on top of our newly refreshed website, Forever35 podcast.com, and we are more than halfway to our goal. So in this anxious October, help us help Arizona.

Doree:                Thank you. So I am, don't know, not looking at polls, but trying to make differences in small ways, small ways that I can,

Elise:                   I'm post carding up a storm. Oh, nice postcard. There's a postcard party This weekend, my ballot has arrived, so in California we can just do mail-in ballots, and so I'm already kind of studying the really hyper specific local races that I'm never quite familiar with. So every day when I'm eating my lunch of not a tofu scramble because those have disappeared, I'm studying my little voter guides. That's my reading material these days.

Doree:                I love that. Yes. Well, should we introduce our guest?

Elise:                   I'm so psyched to introduce our guest because she was a longtime colleague sometimes. She was my editor at NPR and her name is Meghan Kane. She is the founder and managing producer for NPR R'S Life Kit, which you all have probably heard. It brings listeners advice and actionable information about personal finances, health parenting, relationships. I did a whole series on Travel for Life kit. She's responsible for the editorial Vision of Life Kit and it aims to serve NPR R'S larger mission of public service. Prior to founding life, kit Kane was a producer for NPR R'S award-winning podcast, Invisibilia. There she produced long form stories about understanding human behavior, and this plays into her book and the research that she did for her book, which we talked about, it is called Party of One. We're going to get into her single life and what she learned about the affirmative vision for living without a partner or living with a family of people who aren't necessarily your romantic partner. Just to finish up her bio, she first joined NPR in 2011 as an intern for Weekend All Things Considered and holds a journalism degree from Emerson College. She lives in Washington DC and she was awesome. She's just full of insights. One mic drop after another.

Doree:                She was so cool, and also she had the Glow ist skim.

Elise:                   Oh, right.

Doree:                We

Elise:                   Asked her about that too. We

Doree:                Did ask her about that. Stick

Elise:                   Around until the end. How about that for a teaser?

Doree:                Before we get to Meghan, just want to remind everyone we have new episodes on Mondays and Wednesdays. Monday, what you're listening to is our full length episode with our interview with an amazing guest. Wednesdays are our mini episodes where we hear from you, our listeners, and then on Fridays we have our casual chats, which are exclusive to our Patreon subscribers. You can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/forever five. We have a bunch of other benefits there. Also, if you subscribe at the $10 level, you can get this episode and the other main feed episodes add free, which is cool. You should also check out our newly redesigned website Forever35 podcast.com. We've made things a little bit easier to navigate and find. I think we have a working search now, so if there's a product that you're looking for, you can check that out. I mean, my dream for the past six years has been to make a huge just product guide

Elise:                   For

Doree:                Forever35. It's a massive undertaking at this point, and every month that goes by, it just gets more and more massive. So I guess we should just started it. You know what

Elise:                   We have now? We have an awesome website designer.

Doree:                We do, but we need a data entry person to go through every, you know what I mean? Go through all the episode descriptions and find every product and I don't know, it seems like an enormous undertaking. Anyway, just something I've been thinking about. We are also on Instagram at February 35 podcast. We posted our new photos of the two of us on our Instagram. They're pretty cool if you ask me. We also have our favorite products at Shop my us slash forever five. We have a newsletter@foreverfivepodcast.com slash newsletter, and you can call or text us at five nine one zero three nine zero, and our email is Forever35 podcast at gmail com.

Elise:                   Please call us. Please text us. Please do that. We love your questions and your feedback.

Doree:                We really do. Alright, so we are going to take a short break and when we get back we will be talking to Meghan.

Elise:                   Alright, we'll be right back. Meghan, welcome to the show. We're so delighted to have you.

Meghan:             Oh, so great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Doree:                Meghan. We like to start off by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So is there anything that you are doing currently that you would consider self care?

Meghan:             Yes, I love this question. I thought about it long and hard. I have been trying to develop what I am calling long form brain again, and it's not a totally unique phrase I'll admit. I went to a great talk that Anne Patrick gave last December, and she was talking about a friend who was like, I'm going to raise long form kids and they're going to be able to read a whole book or sit on a plane and things like that. I'm not a parent, I don't know what that entails, but I was like, long form human is such a cool phrase to me. So I have been really reinvesting in my long form brain and all that really means, it's a fancy way of saying, I'm reading books, I'm reading books again, I'm reading full novels instead of always reaching for my phone. I know people on the show have talked about how they're trying to reduce their screen time,

Elise:                   But

Meghan:             For me, I just start to see what is more rewarding to my brain is sitting down, enjoying a novel and just sinking into that and trying to really enjoy getting taken away. The kind of calm that comes over me is so much more of a better experience, no surprise than looking at my phone and also just goes to, I want to make sure I read articles again, long articles, and it just feels like the franticness of my brain has kind of calmed down. I don't know, five, 7%, but I'll take it. Or even just sitting in front of a TV show and not looking at my phone

Doree:                That

Meghan:             I would also call the long Form Brain Practice. I haven't copyrighted it yet or anything, so it's for the taking

Elise:                   Listeners. It's yours

Meghan:             If

Elise:                   You want to try it. Well, Meghan, obviously we're going to get into Party of One, which is deeply researched and you spent a lot of time incorporating your own experience into it. So given your area of expertise, before we get into the wisdom that's in Party of One, I'm just curious, do you have a most horrific dating story?

Meghan:             Oh my God, some of them I blocked out. I think as a necessity, someone will be like, oh yeah, remember when you went on that date? And I'll be like, oh my God. I blocked that out completely. One, I always joke about this 37 date, sorry, 37 minute date Wonder. I went on an online date and I was so sick of going places and then people canceling right before I got there. I was like, well, I'm going to go so rude. It's so rude. I've been in the elevator of my building, my building looking at an app and being like, oh, this person just canceled or completely unmatched as I was walking to the date. So I was like, I'm not doing that anymore. I was like, confirm it's going to be near my house. Don't know what's near my house, but I'm going to put this in my setting.

                             And I think this poor guy was honestly just pretty socially anxious. Didn't know how to have a conversation, but I say that was talking to my teenage son that I don't have after a day's school being like, well, how was school fine? Just one word answers. And I'm like, we can't have a real conversation here. And I was really proud of myself. I usually am such a people pleaser. I'll always get that second drink when I don't want to, things like that. But this night when he was like, should we have another drink? I was like, I think we're good. Wrap it up. And I think I saved both of us a lot of grief, but just pulling teeth of just trying to make end conversation. And when you're a journalist, you know how to talk to people and pull stories out and give anecdotes. And I was always really good about being like, oh, here's something interesting that happened to me, or I read about this. And then people have a sense that they had a good time because you were interesting, not because you both have a connection, which was really, but you shouldn't

Elise:                   Have to do your job on a date. Right. I completely agree. Much labor actually. And so it's sort of like I am taking these years of experience and skill in, I went to journalism school and conversation and creating this kind of bond and intimacy for the service of this guy or girl or whoever. It's

Meghan:             Like, ugh. Exactly. No, I know. It was a waste of my talents. Yeah, I'll say that. I hesitate to even call it a horror story. It was not a good date, but I felt really proud of myself at the end, A little positive reframe of just being like, it's really clarity is kindness. Let's pause, let's move on.

Elise:                   I had a series of them where I was such a good interviewer that the guys started crying. They started talking about their relationship with their mother, my goodness, or their youth or their past in England or whatever it was. And I was just like,

Meghan:             Yeah, these powers can be used for evil too,

Doree:                To bring it back. I think we both really enjoyed your book Party of One. Thank you. And I'd love to hear just a little bit about the origins of the book, what compelled you to write it, why you wanted to do have these wonderful illustrations? I love the illustration so much.

Meghan:             They're gorgeous.

Doree:                Yeah, so let's just hear a little bit about the book.

Meghan:             Sure. So I write about these two kind of pivotal breakups that I had in my twenties. I'm actually 35, so I love that. I'm on Forever35 right now. Lock myself in amber here. Yes. So I talk about these relationships I had in my mid to late twenties where I put a lot of energy into this relationship has to work because I haven't really had any other real relationships. That's silly. I always had plenty of with friends, family, I had all types of relationships in my life, but because I didn't have this romantic partnership, I was feeling kind of like a failure and I was putting all this shame on myself. And I also felt like this is so ridiculous. Society tells us to want this, and then as soon as I want it and I don't have it, everyone's like, you're so lonely and sad and how pathetic.

                             And I was like, I just felt in this bind. And so when I was about 26, I got into a relationship. It was not very long, but it went very fast for me and it felt very important and I got completely blindsided. I got dumped, but at the same time, years later, I realized, okay, I was putting way too much pressure on myself for this relationship work that I wasn't asking any key questions about our values, our compatibility. I actually shouldn't have been blindsided. I should have been digging and testing the relationship, but I was so nervous about the fragility of it because I had been told, you have to want this. Don't mess it up. You finally got here. And so I went through that and it was not easy. And then the next year I've met another guy and then I got into a similar type of a situation, and then he also dumped me.

                             Both of these people also met their long-term and current partners right after me. So I was developing this kind of complex that I was rebound girl, and that there was something wrong with me. And I was really noticing this kind of dissonance between I knew that being single was great and awesome. I had this great life. I had a great job, cool friends, great hobbies, an awesome apartment. But I also felt in my body and soul, this real sadness and shame and frustration. And I was trying to bridge the gap between those two things. And so the book is my attempt to, I'm a journalist, look at the research and find tools and mindsets to help bridge that gap. Because I think a lot of times people are told being single is great, just be grateful. It's awesome. Here are all these great ways. And when someone's just shouting at you, just feel good, it doesn't work for me. So I was like, how do I, what's the in-between? I believe you and I want to be there. What's the in-between though? And that's what part one is.

Elise:                   And it's perfect that you brought that up because what struck me, one line that struck me that you wrote was that you knew all the reasons why it's okay to be single, but you were still feeling sad that you didn't have a partner. So knowing what you do now, what do you say to people who resonate with that?

Meghan:             Oh, that's a great question. I'd say, oh God. It's like, don't think about the escalator. Your life is not linear. There's the relationships that escalator that gets talked about a lot, that this idea that you get in a relationship and then you move in and then you get married and then you have kids. And no one really talks about what happens at the top of the escalator though. Do you fall off? What happens? Right? And so that should be a red flag. Instead of thinking your life going linearly, think of your life as getting wider and deeper. And that for me was a big change because there's just so much less pressure on a kind of pass fail of a goal of do I have the relationship or not to make you feel a certain way. And if you can just take the pressure off of I need to have this one thing to be happy, that can just release the anxiety.

                             I mean, for me personally, I had to look at two versions of my life ahead of me that were equally true and equally valid and equally possible being single for a really long time or being partnered for however long. And I just was like, I have to make sure that both of those paths are good. So I would tell people, that's what you have to do. You have to hold, you might still want to partner, and that might happen for you, it might not, but while you're, I don't want to even want to say waiting, but don't wait to live your life. Live it right now. And so then both of those realities can be wonderful no matter what.

Elise:                   I feel like this is kind of in conversation with ideas in your memoir too. Doree.

Doree:                Yeah. And also G Glenys, I'm sure you've read her books. I

Meghan:             Love her book. Yeah,

Doree:                Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm so glad that we're having these conversations because I feel like for so long no one was having these conversations, this idea of, well, I feel like I should want this, but I actually kind of don't. And is that okay? It's

Meghan:             Valid. Just taking a second to be like, wait a second, who wants this for me? Do I actually want this? And I think that's great. If you're like, at the end of the day, actually I do want a partnership in this kind of way, but I can turn down the pressure. That's great. I'm not anti partnership or relationships. It's just you're totally right. It's like, do I actually want this version of what I've been told?

Doree:                Yes, exactly. Go ahead.

Elise:                   This gets to this idea that you introduced, at least to me this term singleism, this bias that culture feeds us about how if we're alone, there's something wrong with us and it ends up shaping pretty harmful narratives. So just for folks who haven't read the book yet, how do you define singleism and what are ways that all of us in culture can work on it?

Meghan:             Yeah. Singleism is a term that was coined by researcher Bella DePalo, who's pretty much a pioneer in research around singleness. And in her approximation, it's basically any kind of marginalization discrimination against singles or preconceived notions. She's actually done research where people basically admit that they think that single people are more selfish or that they're not as worthy. In some ways, I think I'm kind of remembering the exact details, but basically there are these internalized stigmas we have around people who just don't happen to be partnered romantically. And when you think about it, it just makes no sense. It feels so arbitrary because the reality is that everyone will be single at some point in their life, whether you're just getting started with your career or there's a death or a divorce, or you just want to take time for yourself. Single life should not be something to be feared because then it becomes something that we cause this singleism and this hate and this discrimination. So yeah, it shows up. Singleism Bella de Ballo talks about is this obsession that our culture has with being partnered up and anyone else who is not a part of that is less than somehow, but we also see it in policy, right? Housing policy in healthcare insurance, how single people get the short end of the stick. So many different ways it shows up in expecting that a single person can take a later shift or do work that is not expected of their married colleagues.

                             But it also shows up in just the dreaded Thanksgiving conversation of like, well, are seeing what happen for you? Are you seeing anyone? You just haven't met the right person yet, and oh God, I can't wait for you to finally get married. And all these things that sometimes people are well-intentioned, sometimes they're not. How do you push against that? One is to know that these stigmas around single people are just simply false. This idea that singles are somehow lonelier than married people just doesn't make a lot of sense. But she says in her research that single people are really good at solitude and meaningful solitude, and they rarely feel truly chronic loneliness.

                             And that also single people often have more social connections than married people. You think about it because you in a way have to a diversity of connection when you're single. Yes. You have a wider network. Exactly. And so the way that we all can push back against singleism is really stand up and treat well, one, just treat single people like you. Would a married person ask about their passions, their hobbies? Don't treat their dating life like a experiment for you or entertainment. You can also make sure you celebrate their birthdays, make sure you're not seeing them with just your

Elise:                   Spouse,

Meghan:             Treat their death of a pet or a friend you would as if there was their husband or wife. It's just all these ways to think about how would I just treat this person if they were married? It's kind of ridiculous, but just honoring their whole personhood really is a way to push against it.

Elise:                   Yeah. Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back.

Doree:                I love all of the ways that you outline how to become more comfortable with solitude, and I was hoping we could talk a little bit about those, especially I loved your Pomodoro technique for getting more comfortable with doing things by yourself. Yeah. Could you talk about

Meghan:             That? Yeah. Yeah. I came up with a bunch of solitude styles. I am pretty comfortable with alone time. I like it. But I also understood for this audience of the book, I knew that not everyone would relish the long format brain days of reading a novel. And so especially if someone is newer to being single or newer to spending time on their own,

                             I use this really famous studying technique called the Pomodoro Method, where there's variations on it, but the basic idea is that you set a timer. I also love doing this for things for tasks that I am really dreading, where I'm like, okay, I can do it for 20 minutes, and you set a timer for 20 minutes, and then you do the task. In this case, it's solitude. So I recommend doing something with your hands that's a really absorbing thing to do. So like gardening, cooking, baking, sewing, something creative. Again, anything to just get you absorbed rather than just being like, now what do I do? Look out a window. I don't know. 20 minutes goes up. You take a five minute break, you can look at your phone stretch, call someone, I don't care. But then you do another 20 minutes, and the idea is that the five minute break is just short enough that you are, I was just in the flow of that thing I was doing right then, and I really liked it. And it kind of tricks you into being like, okay, maybe let's just forget the five minute break this time and just go on. So again, it's a great way if you are really kind of itching out of your skin to think about how am I going to spend alone time? It's a great way to get started.

Elise:                   That's great. That's great. It does seem like, at least now as we're talking, that we are in a time of cultural shift. I mean, this is putting aside all the books that have come out in favor of traditional marriage and all the political arguments for all of that too, from the right. But overall, the stats seem to show, at least in certain communities and parts of the country, that partnering up isn't such an important priority or life milestone anymore. Like divorce rates are climbing again, and the number of people who never marry

Meghan:             Is

Elise:                   On the rise. So what do you make of these trends? What is happening do you think?

Meghan:             Yeah, they've been climbing. The never married median age has been climbing since around 1960. So it's been a long standing upward trend. And I think what people are both realizing is that they do get to choose one. They get to choose. They get to actually be like, I don't have to be on that relationship escalator.

                             And two, it's actually I think, a realization that traditional marriage was never that traditional. The moment of the 1950s, leave it to beaver household of the single breadwinner can go to work, and then the wife takes care of the kids, is actually a complete speed bump in the history of marriage. But people like to think of it as how marriage has always been, right? I talked to historian Stephanie Koontz about this, and women were actually getting married a little later in life, even 60 years prior to the 1950s. People think that there were always, look, everyone was pretty young still at that time when getting married. But if you look at the data, there was a significant drop in this interesting time after World War ii, and it was actually a perfect storm of time too, where it was men coming home for more wages were pretty high. You had this rise of technology where people could buy a washing machine and they would save all this this time, so you actually could afford to have one single breadwinner in the home. And then that just started falling apart. Partly Symphony Kouts writes about women's liberation and et cetera. So I think it's interesting when people keep talking about traditional marriages are falling apart, but it's like those have never really existed to begin with. And also it was traditional. It was more of a very specific

Elise:                   White middle class part of the population too.

Meghan:             Exactly. So as the never married trend continues since that anomaly of time. Yeah, like I said, I think people are finally being like, wow, I can choose. And I think that was really interesting for me to also kind of unpack, I'm a millennial. I'm 35. I thought I was above all the, you have to get married at a certain age. Even though I thought I saw through it all, it was still seeping in. And I think that's what made me feel so crazed about, well, I know this should be fine, but I'm still feeling this. And so I'm really excited to see people who are 10 steps ahead of me already. And I think there are a lot of people out there who are like, I'm good. I don't need a marriage, or I need a different type of partnership. And just being able to choose and taking their own power. I think it's awesome.

Doree:                And there have been all these, I feel like there've been a lot of articles lately about how women in their fifties and sixties who are getting divorced are just very uninterested in getting remarried.

Meghan:             They don't blame them. Well, I, Gardner has a new memoir out, and she's still married to Jeffrey, but she talks about how she took a break in her marriage because of the gender roles. They were both really taking it. He was the husband making all these decisions. She's like, I don't like that. And they had to take a real hard break to reset their marriage. I feel like I've never heard people talk about someone of her age talk about it that way,

Doree:                Which I

Meghan:             Found really interesting.

Doree:                Yeah, it's really interesting. This is related to your book, and I think to single them in general, but it was this very interesting thing that I wanted you to unpack a little bit more, which is about how venting is Oh, yes. Actually not that productive or helpful a lot of the time. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about this and why it kind of even came up for you.

Meghan:             Yes. So you're right. So a part of how we're socialized, I think especially as women, because we're like, we're in touch with our emotions. We're going to talk about our emotions and this idea that you have to be always really honest and open about a lot of emotions too when you're a woman. So I think that's where the venting part comes, especially with your friendships. And look, I think talking about what's on your mind and what's bothering you is totally fine and good. I think where for me, it got unhelpful was I would vent in a text thread, and then I would go through my phone and be like, who else? I told about this? And I was like, so I would just kind of start the whole cycle again, and I was just feeling really bad. I was just kept venting. And then by that time, there was metaphorical smoke clouding all around me from all the venting. So I heard about this book called Chatter from a psychologist and researcher at University of Michigan, Ethan Cross, who his whole thing is about how we talk to ourselves and how we talk to each other.

                             And he says that venting is actually a form of rumination, which I found pretty damning. So the idea that in rumination you're not really solving anything, you're kind of spinning your wheels and you typically don't feel that much better afterward, and rumination venting is you doing that with another person. And so that was really illuminating to me. And so what he recommended is he calls 'em chatter advisors, basically good venting partners. And so he told me it's totally fine to have the venting session, get something off your chest. You maybe build a little bit of a connection with someone that you trust if you're doing it at the reasonable rate, but then you want to move into a reframe section of the venting, right? I'm not saying to always be like, and then everything was great, right? You're totally fine. That's turn your smile upside

Elise:                   Down, positivity, right? Right,

Meghan:             Right. Yeah. It's just kind of gently reminding either yourself or someone else. I know you went through this a month ago or two months ago, and I saw how you got through it. Kind of a gentler reframing, I would say. Or I am a big fan of, do you need advice for me or do you need validation? That's a good way to, if someone's venting at you, to be like, do we have permission to redirect into advice and problem solving mode, or are we still going to be in the venting space? We can be in the venting space. But then the risk is what Ethan Cross says is that you might start to burn out your other friends and family. I saw this with my mom a lot. I would call her about the same stuff over and over again. She'd be like, I don't know, Meghan, just figure it out.

                             And I don't blame her because I was talking about the same things over and over again. So moving into the excuse, moving into the problem solving side I think was really interesting to me. And again, it doesn't have to be like, well, you'll find someone, or if we're talking about singleness or it'll all work out or whatever, it's just like, you don't even have to talk about that. I would say you could be like, what's something we could do to make you feel good? Giving yourself choice, getting unstuck, just giving yourself more credit, a little self-compassion goes a long way. And I know that's a trendy word, but there's good research. And so the formula I've realized for venting is you can have your time to vent, and then we have to move on to the, okay, what can we do next now to maybe make you feel better about it or give some self-soothing and then move on to something else.

Elise:                   So let's jump to that actually, just the affirmative case that you're making in the book, which is about really nurturing the most important relationship that we will have in our lives, the relationship ourselves. How should we go about it? What did you learn?

Meghan:             Yeah. Well, I spend a lot of the time in the book talking about mindfulness, especially around emotions, which I think might be, I mean, mindfulness is pretty popular these days, but I think sometimes dealing with big emotions around shame, I think is new for people with mindfulness. I think people often think of mindfulness as of I have to empty out my thoughts and think of nothing and be completely zen. It's actually a beautiful tool for self-regulating emotions and self-regulating. What I learned in researching the book, again, it's not about zen and being eternally happy. It's about maintaining choice and kind of self understanding. And so mindfulness is just paying attention to the current moment without judgment. And I realized what a lot of the frustration I had with the big emotions that came, and rightfully so around dating because it can be so frustrating, is that I was intertwining the shame with myself. And I was thinking, what mindfulness does is it slows you down to be like, is that actually a part of me? If I'm feeling like, oh, wow, I feel really bad. I feel like I'm so upset. This date went horribly. I'm like, I'm a loser, or I'm never going to find anyone. I'm unlovable, unlovable. There's something wrong with me, right? We've all had these intrusive

Elise:                   Thoughts. For sure.

Meghan:             You hear how the negative and the blame is so intertwined with the self, and what mindfulness does is to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's pause here. Let's do a little emotional fact checking. Is that even true? Sometimes even flipping. It was really helpful. I find instead of being like, I am unlovable, I'd be like, even if I didn't feel in the moment, just be like, I'm lovable. Just thinking that to myself was super powerful, just flipping out on its head. And I really focus on the emotional part of that with the idea of being your best partner, because what's the thing that people always say? The only person you can control is yourself. And there's so much about dating that is so frustrating. And look, there's a lot of things that have to be remedied. Particularly, I would say men have to do a better job of treating women with respect, especially even the heterosexual dating space, right? Dating apps, I think need a complete overall, seriously. There's just so much systemic things that unfortunately feel out of your hands, but what you can do is give yourself a lot of compassion and not let the shame get to you. And so that's where I feel like understanding emotional regulation is just, it's so important for anyone regardless of your relationship status. So that's why I really wanted to dig deep into it.

Elise:                   And you did, and it's excellent. And

Meghan:             Now I'm perfectly healed. No, I'm kidding. I never get angry. Oh my God. No, I definitely, I have a bad negative emotion still.

Doree:                Meghan, before we wrap, may we discuss your glowing skin?

Elise:                   Oh, you can't see Meghan right now. Oh my gosh. But Doree immediately clocked, dang. Her skin is glowing. I

Doree:                Was like, she is radiant.

Meghan:             Thank you so much. Honestly, between this and my curls, my pride and joy, and I spend a lot of time on it,

Doree:                Your curls are great too.

Meghan:             Thank you. No, this skin though, I think really started with my mom being a sunscreen mom, being at the pool, being like, come here, lather it up. You're sensitive. Drilling that into my brain.

Elise:                   Yes,

Meghan:             Really early. So I've always been a daily sunscreen where I'm sure everyone knows I don't have to extol the virtues of that, but yes. I, not to our listeners anyway. Yeah, exactly. And as I get older, I say moisturizing just like a ton of moisturizing. I love this. There's a French product, I can't remember the name of it, but it's just really wonderful. What people don't realize is when you get older, you need to moisturize before you put on any kind of makeup and let that sink in. And that goes a long way. What is, I also love products that are glowy.

Doree:                Yeah. What is your blush highlighter situation?

Meghan:             It's Jones Road. The Bobby Brown line. Yeah, I The Miracle Bobby Brown. Yes. Yeah, that plus the regular blush. I combined them. She went to Emerson, which is where I went to school. We actually had her gym named after her, which tells you how much we cared about sports, that we had a makeup artist that dedicated enough money for the gymnasium, the gym. Makes sense. Sure. Yeah, exactly. But yes, I love a little, yeah, the miracle bomb is great. I look for products that are very hydrating, and that goes a long way. I feel like I never, ever got compliments about my skin in my twenties. And now that everyone has just, I think, more kind of an eye for it, and we're talking about skincare so much more, I get so much more compliments. So thank you mom, for making me wear sunscreen when I was a kid at the pool.

Elise:                   Amazing. And thank you, Meghan, for sharing so much of your insight with us. Where can people find you?

Meghan:             Sure. They can find me on Instagram at Dame Kane, K-E-A-N-E. That's where my Irish ancestors, my name doesn't look like how it's pronounced. You can also find me@Meghanvkain.com where you can find a party of one for purchase.

Elise:                   Okay. Thank you so much, Meghan. Thank you so much.

Meghan:             Oh my gosh, my pleasure. So fun.

Doree:                Well, she was just very cool.

Elise:                   It was awesome to hear Meghan on the other side of the mic, because she's usually the one listening and listening in on all the host interviews. And then

                             Right after the interview, she's like, YK part one, let's move the back to the front. It was strongest at this section. Let's play that up. Don't forget to score this section so she can hear an interview and be able to instantly find an arc and make it listenable, really, just as she's probably the best at it. Among the best at it that I've ever worked with. So hopefully Meghan, when you were hearing this interview, you were happy with the way that it got cut down, very high standards, very high standards. Alright, let's check in on our intentions. How did you, let's do that. Do with the last week.

Doree:                Yeah. So I said that I was going to kind of redouble my efforts to be writing, and I have been doing that. I've been writing at least a little bit every day.

Elise:                   Oh, good.

Doree:                Trying to just go with the, remind myself that I don't have to write for 10 hours a day. I have other stuff going on. And so yeah, just trying to get a little bit done every day. And I feel like I have a clear, I, I mentioned this before, but I feel like I have a clear roadmap now that feels good. And then

Elise:                   I remember your agent liked your pages, so she gave you kind of general ideas. Did she give you general notes about

Doree:                Yes, she did give me general notes and they were super helpful. So yeah, so I'm kind of going along with what she said and her notes also dovetailed with what my friend who read it said. So that was also super helpful. So this week we're recording this the day before the night that Yom Kippur starts. So I'm just in a reflective in mood. So yeah, just

Elise:                   How do you think that reflective mood is going to show up in your intentions? Because now you're, we're really at the start of a new year, so

Doree:                Yes, we are at the start of a new year.

Elise:                   Are you feeling,

Doree:                I dunno, I feel like don't have enough. It's weird because I feel like I don't have enough distance from this past year to really reflect and come to any real conclusions. It was also a very hard year. So I'm sort of like, what do I want to take away from this? And there were things that I wish I had done differently and I think there's people I need to apologize to. And there's just a lot of stuff and I don't quite know how to, it's a lot.

Elise:                   It's a lot. Thanks for sharing that with us. Yeah, that's Give yourself grace.

Doree:                I'm trying to, but sometimes it's a challenge as I'm sure.

Elise:                   Yeah, I feel that. Yeah, I feel that.

Doree:                So yeah. So what about you?

Elise:                   My intention, if I recall correctly, that we need to check, just to make sure, was foam rolling right? That I was going to foam roll again.

Doree:                Do you recall? I think so.

Elise:                   It was foam rolling. It was sort of like, well, I didn't drink train, but I'm going to foam roll, but I don't want to get it wrong. I think it was foam rolling because I have been very good about that. I've been sleeping with a foam roller. I usually keep it downstairs and not in my bedroom, but I have moved the foam roller upstairs so that I remember to do it when I get up for zero period to take my daughter to zero period. Has it eased the pain in my back? I mean, I still think I need to go back to physical therapy, but is it better? I think so. I think so. Stretching and foam rolling is a form of sort of therapy at home that I can do. Right. And pain management.

Doree:                Yes, yes, yes.

Elise:                   My intention going forward for the week ahead are just periods for stillness. You know me, I'm kind of all over the place. I say yes to everything. And last weekend was one of those weekends where it was just like, we didn't even have time with the kids and all their activities in and out and passing off one kid and the other, it just didn't feel fun. It was just frazzled and frenetic. And so I am going to try and go to a movie and just sit in the movie theater. Oh,

Doree:                I love that.

Elise:                   For my stillness.

Doree:                Do you know what you're going to see?

Elise:                   I heard, is it Out yet? There was this movie called My Old Ass.

Doree:                Oh yeah, it's out. I haven't seen it yet.

Elise:                   That's what I want to see. I want to see my old ass. So maybe my intention more specifically is like movie theater. See a film in a movie theater that requires really carving out attention and time that I would not have been able to do last weekend at all. There were just too many things.

Doree:                Oh, interesting. Okay.

Elise:                   Putting it out there.

Doree:                Okay. We've put it out into the universe and now it is out. Alright listeners, thank you so much for coming on this journey with us. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hugh, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everybody.

Elise:                   Bye-bye.

 
Forever 35 Podcast
Previous

Mini-Ep 415: Staying Forever35
Next

Mini-Ep 414: In Our Elise Era