Episode 311: Pop Culture Obsessions and Friendship Goals with Sam Sanders
Doree and Elise invite journalist, Vibe Check host, and Elise’s long-time friend Sam Sanders to talk about using his self-competitiveness to gamify getting off his phone, figuring out that not all hills are worth dying on, the life-hack of “I feel” statements in all parts of his life, and his pop culture obsessions including what he thinks is overrated and underrated right now.
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Transcript
Doree: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise: And I'm Elise Hugh. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree: Along those lines, Elise, I've done such a full 180 on a serum that I am like
Elise: Do tell.
Doree: I don't even know what to say. So a few years ago on this podcast, on this very podcast, I came out hard against vitamin C as a serum, as an ingredient. I was like, I break out. It doesn't do anything for me.
Elise: I remember
Doree: This, I think it's pointless. I was just like, no, I hate it. And now I'm like, I love it. I have mentioned this turn on before, but I want our listeners to know that I'm still on the vitamin C train and I think that it is helping with my skin's recovery from playing so much tennis Because Even though I use a ton of sunscreen, that makes sense, but I'm still playing a lot of times in the full sun. And so no matter how much sunscreen you put on, it's like you're still going to get some sun, and I feel like the vitamin C has been helping with that
Elise: Dermatologists like vitamin C for hyperpigmentation. Right? So it makes sense that if you are getting a little bit more sun and you're redder or sp spottier in places that vitamin C could kind of even things out.
Doree: Yes,
Elise: I do a good job of that.
Doree: The other thing that I'm doing, and I feel like I forget where I picked this up from, but I've pretty much stopped using my Tretinoin in the summer because Tretinoin makes your skin more sensitive to sun, and the sun here is so strong in the summer that, and I'm outside so much now that I'm like, this will not be good for me.
Elise: That's similar to laser facials. The guidance is never get a laser facial during times where the days are very long. You should always get laser facials when around the winter solstice, which are the longest nights of the year because you are not going to even chance being in direct sunlight as much.
Doree: Oh, that's so interesting. That makes so much sense though.
Elise: So save your laser facials for the winter and certain ingredients.
Doree: Yeah, I think same for IPL and BL, which of course are lasers, but they're basically resurfacing your skin, so that makes a ton of sense. My soul concession to changing seasons with regards to skincare was always like, well, I just need a lighter moisturizer in the summer. In the winter my skin gets drier, so I'll use a thicker moisturizer. Now I'm a little bit like, okay, let's calibrate this a little bit more delicately.
Elise: Yeah, no, I remember talking to my chorea town as aesthetician one time saying, Hey, I think I want to try a laser facial now that I'm getting older, la la la. I should change it up, maybe get a little bit more fancy. And she was like, do not do it right now. It's June.
Doree: Wow.
Elise: And I mentioned it to my mom and my mom was like, yeah, I never get laser facials when there's so much sunshine, you're just putting yourself at risk for more sun. So anyway, the Asian mommies and the Asian aunties all know this.
Doree: The Asian mommies
Elise: Knew. Yeah, they know. Yeah, they knew.
Doree: I mean, I do feel like I'm like this close from walking around with a parasol.
Elise: Oh yeah, you've got to, you can in la I think you can
Doree: Do it with pride, which such an Asian mommy thing.
Elise: Yes. You could do it with
Doree: Pride. Yeah.
Elise: I have the big, the Korean aju ma visor, the visor that goes almost 360 around your Oh,
Doree: And
Elise: You can snap it down.
Doree: Yes. I see. I live not super far from Koreatown, and I do sometimes see women out on their walks with those enormous hats and I'm like, respect?
Elise: Where'd you get that? Yeah. You're like, do you have an affiliate link for that? Right.
Doree: Are you a sun care influencer? Because if so, I would like to give you my affiliate money.
Elise: Well, I'm so excited about today's show.
Doree: Me too. It was really fun. I will say it was really fun to get to talk to someone that you've known for so long.
Elise: Yeah. We have on today Sam Sanders, who those of you who listen to a lot of podcasts will know.
Doree: Before we introduce him though, I just want to remind everyone that you can head on over to Forever35 podcast.com. We have links to everything we mention and Sam mentions on the show. We're also on Instagram at Forever35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com/forever three five. We have our favorite products at shop my US slash forever three five. We have our newsletter at five podcast com slash newsletter and please call or text us. Our number is 5 9 0 3 9 and our email is five podcast Gmail. And Elise, do you want to do the honors of officially introducing him?
Elise: I am happy to. Sam Sanders is a journalist, he's a radio presenter, known for being the former host of NPRs. It's been a minute. It was a weekly podcast and nationally broadcast radio program. And he also was host of Intuit the flagship culture podcast from Vulture. You can find him now analyzing culture every Wednesday on Stitchers vibe check. He's also a dear friend of mine. And without further ado, here's Sam Sanders. We were still considered young folk at NPR when we were working together 12 years ago, which is wild. That's how much time has passed.
Doree: And
Elise: We are both from Texas, I'm from Dallas, he's from the San Antonio area, and so we share a lot in common. And he also fun fact occasionally plays with my partner Rob's band. He studied to be a professional musician. He almost went to college for music.
Sam: I did go to college for music and then I was like, you know who has really scary job? Precarity, professional saxophonist. Let's not do that. So I didn't.
Elise: Oh, but let's go to a secure scholar
Sam: Journalism instead. I know. Lemme tell you, I shouldn't be in charge of my life choices. I don't always choose the safest bet. But what Elise is burying in this lead is that on top of being a great friend who was always reliable at NPR West to go out for second breakfast, the thing you do.
Doree: That's right.
Sam: First breakfast and second breakfast,
Elise: I'm like a
Sam: Hobbit. Yes. Elise has also been a wonderful mentor for over a decade now, what I love about Elise is that she's very open about what her goals are, and she gives you this power to name your goals and say what you want. And her entire career where I've seen her move from this to that and succeed, it's all because she's not afraid to say, I want this clearly and directly. And I've realized the older I get, most people never say what they want. And when you find people who can say what they want, thanks Sam. Hold on to them.
Elise: He's never said that to me.
Sam: This is very No, I admire you, my friend.
Elise: I was very clear when I moved back from Seoul to the United States and was absorbing by osmosis, I guess all of the LA energy that I wanted to be a project person. I was like, I cannot just work for one place. I don't want to be a lifer anywhere. I want to be a project person. And I had to figure out how to do that. It took a while, but I finally figured out how to do that and it's been great. I'm like, I feel like I can really be me. And it really suits my personality to be this way. And a lot of people have gone the project person route.
Sam: Totally.
Elise: And be worked
Sam: Together. Exactly. And I remember you saying it so clearly years before it happened, and you just spoke it until you made it real. And so many people I encounter in my adult life, in professional life, they wait for someone else to tell them what they want. And the secret that just having a life that works for you is to know what you want and say what you want. You can't beat around the bush. You just can't. What do you want? Any who steps off soapbox.
Doree: Beautiful. Wow. Well, Sam, and maybe what you just said is your answer, but we do always like to ask our guests if they have a self-care practice that they are currently doing. And I was wondering if you have one.
Sam: Yeah, it's what's been really helpful to me over the last several years is just incorporating a little meditation kind of whenever I think to do it. And the way I do that is I try to count my breaths a lot at a traffic light count your breaths, feeling stressed out, count your breaths. You want to reach for your phone, but you shouldn't count your breaths. And this little reset of thinking about your breathing and having this thing to focus on, it's like a mini meditation whenever you need it. My favorite time to do it is when traffic is about to get on my last nerve here in Los Angeles. And before I honk, I say, could I count to five? Count to five and breathe deeply? And it helps. I think for a long time I thought that the only way to meditate and focus was to do what I do on YouTube or something and sit on a yoga mat and have the incense burning. And it's like, no. All that mindfulness is asking of us is to be mindful. And the easiest way for me to start to be mindful wherever I am is just the secretly, quietly count my breaths. Yeah,
Elise: I love that. You mentioned reaching for your phone, Sam, so I'd love to know how your relationship with your phone and screen time is going.
Sam: Oh yeah. We are in a tug of war right now, but I'm winning. I probably, I am. And I'll tell you how I, like a lot of people love their phone, can't live without their phone, but feel that it's becoming an addiction and an impulse and not making your life better every day, but some days making it worse.
And I felt that happening to me. I'd have these days where I would spend six, seven, eight hours on my phone and I could see it because screen time tells you, and the way I've kind of beat it is now I challenge myself to minimize my screen time. What if I could get to four or three or two hours? And so that game, the gamification of my phone addiction has helped also what I've done, a good friend of mine was telling me about he's just how he's on Instagram way too much. And I was like, girl, me too. And I said, what if we just did an Instagram fast one day next week? We both take Monday off of Instagram and we check in with the other to keep the other accountable. I did. It works and now I keep doing it. So fasting from specific apps that take too much of your time and monitoring your overall time on the phone, those two things have helped me feel like I'm in control. I don't ever want a day where I feel like my phone's in control of me. I want to feel like I'm in control of my phone.
Doree: Doree,
Elise: Have you done the same thing?
Doree: So I took Instagram off my phone a couple of weeks ago. I took a bunch of things off and I did add added TikTok back.
Sam: I get it.
Doree: Maybe because I don't post on TikTok, I never feel the pressure to post. I'm a
Sam: Lurker.
Doree: I just look and it's entertainment for me. Whereas Instagram, I think I always felt the pressure to be posting and that was something that I just was like, maybe I'll go back to it, but I don't need this right now. I love this gamification of spending less time on your phone.
Sam: That
Doree: Really speaks to me.
Sam: Yeah, it works because I'm very competitive and I'm most competitive with myself. So yeah, let's go Sam. It's game time.
Doree: Yes. Well, I think it sounds like you are internally motivated, which that speaks to me also. It's not like you're competing with someone else to see who can spend the least amount of time on your phone. You're competing against yourself,
Sam: Myself, myself. Well, and it's interesting that you bring up comparison because the emotion and the mood that I found Instagram was constantly pulling me into was comparison.
Doree: Yes.
Sam: Comparison. It's not just pretty pictures and fun Instagram reels. You're seeing all of your friends and not quite friends. Perform vacation, perform perfect parenthood, perform perfect relationship.
Doree: And
Sam: So you're telling yourself, oh, this is cute. I'm catching up with my friends. You're just getting enough information to feel inadequate compared to them.
Doree: Right. I don't know if you felt this too, Sam, but for me also, I felt this pressure when I posted of like, oh, how many likes did this? You commented, oh, you viewed my story, but you
Sam: Didn't like it, but you didn't say anything.
Doree: Yeah,
Sam: I know this person, they better comment on this post, otherwise I think they hate me.
Doree: And I was just like, oh my god, this is not healthy. So there was that aspect of it for me as well that I just didn't like the person I was when I was hosting.
Sam: I get that hosting. I'm right there with you.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise: When you are using social media, how do you decide what of yourself you're going to share and how much you hold back because you have become more and more public over the years as you've hosted more shows and riffed on pop culture. So is there some sort of rubric that you ask yourself or you run through?
Sam: Yeah, I think there are two things I'm thinking about, physical safety and emotional safety. So I'll start with physical safety and I got this tip from my vibe. Check co-host Zach and a few other people who do the same thing. You probably, if you're in any way a public figure, you don't want to post your Instagram stories where you're at in real time. Maybe you want to wait to post until later. I will say as long as I've been making audio and podcasts, my listeners and fans have been the sweetest. Mostly women, mostly kind. They get it and they're lovely. But I had an experience which I actually loved, but made me think bigger questions. I was posting about going to see the Beyonce concert movie at the Grove. I'm posting it as I'm walking in, I'm posting as I see stuff. I watch the movie, my friend and I come out of the movie and across the grove, a woman yells out, I was hoping I'd see you here. She had seen my Instagram stories that I was coming to watch the movie. She was great. We hung out and it all worked out. But if I had a Joe Rogan esque audience might've been scary. And so the lesson is maybe just wait a few hours to post the thing at you at the place.
Doree: And
Sam: I want to say if the woman who I talked to is listening, I loved our interaction. You kind of made my day. I appreciated it. But I know that all fans aren't as sweet as you are.
Elise: And then you mentioned emotional safety
Sam: Too. Yes. Emotional safety is will posting this make me feel insecure. And I had to think a lot about posting about my romantic life in the midst of a breakup that I had last year. We had a good run. And over the entire course of the relationship, I loved to post photos of him and me together because he's pretty. And our symmetry worked quite well. It was cute. And then we broke up and what do you do? And I felt so insecure. Which pictures can I keep? Which pictures do I delete if I delete? Well, Randall's asked me what happened to him and that did happen. And so now my takeaway is should I ever enter another serious long-term relationship? Do I want to actually be really, really cautious about posting? Do I want to do an Issa Rae method where you don't know she has a man until she posts wedding photos? Oh
Elise: Yeah. Or Mindy Kaling where she announced,
Sam: She was like, I got a baby. Here you go.
Elise: Yeah. Two secret babies. Two secret babies
Sam: Goals.
Elise: One of
Sam: Them we knew about.
Elise: I know
Sam: Goals.
Elise: We were shocked.
Sam: Yeah. But I think, yeah, because it's like what I was doing. I realized I had made my relationship part of that Instagram vortex of comparison and
Elise: It's a lifestyle act.
Sam: And what I really never want to do is have my close romantic and familial and friend relationships enter a vortex of comparison. Never.
Elise: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. We want to talk about all sorts of celebs and pop culture, so good at riffing on it. But first, since this is centering you, how do you think you have evolved the most as a human and grown in your adulting just in the last, I guess, decade or so since we first became friends?
Sam: I have come to realize the older I get and the more life I live, that very few hills are actually worth dying on because then you're dead. That's it. It's like, how many fights do I want to fight? How many fights are worth my time? How many fights are worth me sacrificing to win? It's like, do I want to be right all the time or do I want to win? Do I want to be happy? Or do I want to always be correcting the record, telling someone they're wrong and being the right one? And I think that the me of 10 years ago would've said that kind of mindset was compromising your ideals, but in actuality, it's preserving my strength to fight the right fights so that I really try to figure out how much energy needs to be devoted to a thing. When we live in these social media apps where the feed is constantly bringing you stuff, the feed wants you to pretend to yourself that everything is equally important. Not everything is equally important. A lot of things are important, but some things are more important than others. And how can I allocate my energy knowing that and how can I take a beat and a breath and assess the level of importance before I put the finger up, before I go off, before I do the thing, if that makes sense. I fight fewer battles, I fight fewer battles, and that feels good
Doree: For me. I have trouble sometimes with the distinction between is this a hill I'm going to die on? Versus like, oh, is this person taking advantage of me?
Sam: Yeah.
Doree: You know what I mean? Where is that line is sometimes something that I still sort of struggle with.
Sam: Well, and it's like
Elise: I think it's going to be a lifelong struggle because where you have to deal with other folks constantly and then people ask for things for us or we have to pay commissions or whatever.
Sam: And it's like, how do you have that conversation without saying, I think you're taking advantage of me. And what I do a lot is like, how can I make this conversation and this wording I focused and not them focus.
So I could see myself saying, I'm a little raw in this part of my life because I'm afraid of taken advantage of and I've been taken advantage of before and I just want to speak to those fears. And as soon as you say that, they have to respond to your feelings and they can't take it personally. They can't take it personally. I wouldn't talk about you. I was talking about me, my feelings. Something that's been like a life hack for me to just knowing how to get what I want and saying what I want more is really using a lot of I feel statements. I feel because who can argue with, I feel Well, you feel that way. You feel that way. I feel insecure here. I feel overwhelmed here. I feel taken advantage of here. I feel, I feel, I feel you're never saying you suck. You did this, you did that. You're saying, I feel it helps so
Elise: Much. Yeah, it's a good lesson from couples therapy, but it's also
Sam: Authentic
Elise: And it's kind of a mind.
Sam: Yes, yes. Because who's going to argue with, I feel you're going to say, oh my God, I feel it serve so many purposes. Yeah, yeah,
Yeah. Totally. Totally. And I think for me, another part of that, having more I feel conversations with myself and with others has allowed me to get past the primary emotions to secondary emotions. I think we've all heard over the last few years, anger always shows up first because anger always comes first, but anger is masking something else. And when I do an I feel with myself, it gets me to what really is the core of the problem. So I feel angry. What about, I think I feel angry because, and as soon as you get there, you've unlocked part of the solution. So yeah, I feel has helped me better speak to more emotions in my life and not just let anger, cloud everything, if that makes sense.
Elise: It also helps if you approach notes this way if you're getting edits or notes
Doree: And
Elise: Feedback.
Doree: Totally.
Elise: I always ask myself, what's the note behind the note? So when somebody's giving you feedback, they don't like this or they want this changed or they want to expand act two or whatever it is, what's the note behind the note? And then if you can find a way to resolve the note by speaking to or serving that motivation, then it satisfies everyone and you can be more creative too.
Sam: Also, the thing with notes and executives giving notes in this industry, sometimes that person's job is just to give notes. And even if they love it, they have to give notes. If they don't give notes, they don't justify their paycheck.
Doree: Yes.
Sam: So they're going to give you notes. And so making peace with notes. Go ahead Doree. I
Doree: Was just going to say, this is reminding me of when I used to freelance for magazines RIP, but I would sometimes feel like, remember magazines?
Sam: L-O-L-L-O-L-L-O-L-R
Doree: Careers. I remember
Sam: Details magazine made my young gay heart explode. Remember Details Magazine?
Doree: Yes. A magazine I freelance for so
Sam: Many Hotties, so hot. Jude Law was on Details magazine every other month.
Doree: Oh, he hundred.
Sam: He was the cover. He was the cover. So
Doree: Much. A hundred percent was,
Sam: Anyway, go ahead.
Doree: Oh no, I was just going to say I often had this thought because a piece would be edited, it would go through multiple rounds of edits, and I would sometimes feel like the final product was basically what I had submitted in the first place. But we needed to all go through the charade of the charade, these multiple rounds of edits and it is what it is. But I think you're right that for some people they can't just say, this looks good.
Sam: Yeah. Because then why are they making six figures? Why are they making six figures if it just looks good and they don't need you?
Doree: Exactly. Exactly.
Sam: You get it. You get it.
Doree: Sam, you kind of alluded to something that I would love for you to kind of expand on, which is about adult friendships. When we're growing up, and for those of us who go to college, it feels very easy to make friends, right? We're thrust into this world where we live with our friends, we take classes with our friends, we're seeing our friends all the time. And then as we get older, things sort of atomize and people's lives go on different paths. And I'm wondering kind of where you are right now with your friendships and what do you think it takes to both make adult friends and then keep those friendships going?
Sam: Yeah. I think two of the big dynamics in where I'm at with friendship right now are just approaching 40 and my life priorities and activity routine shifting, and then in the same timeframe, seeing a lot of my straight friends and a few gay start to build families and have kids, which changes the dynamic of your friendship inherently. But with both of those things, I'm trying to accept that friendships evolve over time and the kind of friend you are to other people can also evolve over time. In my twenties, I was the activity friend. You did not call me to help you change a tire. You did not call me to cry after your boyfriend broke up with you. You called me to go hang out and we were going to have a good time and I was going to guarantee you a good time and memories, and I loved to be that
Elise: Friend. And you threw great gatherings.
Sam: Exactly. I threw parties. I was about social activity, and that was how I connected with people in my community. And I've entered a phase of my life now that maybe because I'm older or more contemplative because of just life events that kind of wear on you, but I find myself becoming the listening friend. Tell me how you're doing. I'm actually very curious. I want to know because I find that when I hear my friends tell me what they're going through, I realize the shit I'm going through is not new and it isn't nearly as big as I thought it was.
Elise: Sam is a great friend to ask for help because Sam, you know that improv idea of Yes. And Sam will Yes. And you,
Sam: I love it. So when
Elise: I need to commiserate about something, he's like, yes, let's go. Yes, girl. And
Sam: She actually, Elise, we were talking about a problem that you were having and we talked about and I was like, yes, yes, yes. And then the next day I sent you a video. I was like, this reminds me of that thing we kept riffing.
Elise: It's good for memes
Sam: That
Elise: Continue to Yes. And
Sam: So
Elise: It's very supportive.
Sam: Well, and then just thinking about the friends, having kids bit sometimes the ways in which your friends can be friends to you has to evolve. One of my longest dearest friends, she was my middle school girlfriend. Life happened. I ended up being the officiant for her wedding a few years ago, and we've just been close forever, like family close. And in our twenties we were those friends who were on the phone all day and then hanging out all night. Now she has a kid, so when we talk, it's FaceTime and the kid is there and she's making dinner and it's this and that. She cares just as much, just the way that she cares and the way that she provides attention and care has evolved. And I got to say to myself, Sam, this is not her insulting. This is her saying, my life has gotten so different, but I still want you in it. I still want you in it. I want you in it so bad. I'm going to let you see my whole family as it goes on. And so understanding that the ways we offer friendship evolve and the ways others offer friendship evolves.
Doree: Understanding
Sam: That allows you to be less angry. Maybe your friends don't do exactly what you want them to do. They're evolving. They're evolving, and it's a blessing and a gift and a privilege that they let us see them evolve.
Elise: Yeah. We got to meet people where they're at.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah.
Elise: Okay. Let's get a little bit into your work now.
Sam: Okay.
Elise: You've gotten to know a lot of people and you've interviewed gosh, hundreds if not thousands of people over the years, so I just wanted you to spill a little bit. Any favorite interviews or insights from conversations that you have had?
Sam: My favorite interview of all time, and I've interviewed her twice, which is such a gift. Michaela Cole, she's a creative genius behind Chewing Gum and I May Destroy You, which I think was my favorite pandemic era show. She's a creative who is incredibly grounded and spends a lot of time talking about not just the theory of the work, but the theory of how to get to the work. She's one of those creatives who knows how to put herself in a cave for a few months to get it done and only come out when it's ready and honor how her body feels in order to let her creative spirit run free. She preserves her soul, if that makes sense and makes for better art.
Elise: And didn't she famously turn down a $1 million
Sam: Deal? She turned down a million dollar deal. She's fired more than one agent. Like if it doesn't feel right, I cannot do it. She's one of those people that trust her soul and her gut and her body to just be her north star, and she has this laser focus and vision on what she needs and what she wants, and then she comes out of these caves with a thing that nobody else could make. Nobody else could have made chewing gum, nobody else could have made. I may Destroy You. And had she let exec notes and agents whispering and reading Tea leaves guide her creative, it would've been worse. Creative product. She's so laser focused on being intuitive about what she wants to do. Back to the Elise Theory of life. Say what you want. Do what you want. You have to have to. So she was my favorite.
Elise: Granted, yeah,
Sam: Go ahead.
Elise: Yeah. Granted, there's so many people who help along the way, so they help people have to green light. People have to mentor. You have so many friends support you,
Sam: But they can't help and support you in the best way until they know exactly what you want. This is a thing, it's like,
Doree: That's real.
Sam: I thought for a long time saying what I want was selfish. Well, I shouldn't say what I want all the time because it's just about me. But saying what I want is kind. It's generous and it's clear, and it allows people to know what they can be a part of or what they can't. My honesty is generous. Withholding is not generous. My honesty is generous. And we can best serve other people when we know what they want and we know what we want and we can figure out the common ground. I spent so many years waiting for context clues and hoping that folks got the hint. They don't Context clues only work in English class. They only work in English class in real life. You got to say what you want and it's kind because it lets people know where they can meet you. Any who I can soapbox on this all day.
Elise: Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree: What is the pop culture that you are excited about this summer?
Sam: We did a whole episode on about it. Let this past week. This week, there's a really interesting undercurrent in female driven pop right now of burying old grudges and talking things out, which is so different from the Pop divaness I experienced in my youth in the nineties where perpetually the girls were fighting because the media wanted it that way. This has been a summer of pop unity amongst the
Elise: Girls it anti-feminist.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, totally. And so there have been two remixes that have come out in the last few weeks that really drive this point home. Ariana Grande released a song on her newest album called The Boy Is Mine, which is the exact title, but different song of the Brandy and Monica. Monica from our youth
For the remix. She got Brandy and Monica to both sing on it together, and we all know that after the original Boy's Mind was released in the nineties, they were pitted against each other in a feud. Brandy was a good girl, Monica was street. And this feud that the press created got so bad that before their VMA performance in 1998 record Exec said that backstage Monica punched brandy in the face and they both had to go out and perform. It was bad and everyone knew it was bad for years. They wouldn't sing the song together. There had been attempts at reunions in the last few years, but they both felt awkward, but this one felt real. And Monica said about it, she and I made more progress in the last few weeks than we had in years, and she talked about the emotionality of working through this as an adult.
It was really beautiful and complex. In the same vein, Charlie XCX, who has a great new hit album out called Brat, which is what hyper pop should be. It is so visceral and real and raw, and she is a second coming of Robin in a very industrial sense. I love it. And you love Robin. I love Robin. She's my favorite. My North star Charlie is channeling that very clearly, but in a new and interesting way, she released a song on her album Brat called Girls So Confusing, and it was all about the difficulty of female friendships and how you want to love someone, but it's weird and are we competing? Do we love each other? What's going on? This song was quietly about Lord, which the music press had pitched a rivalry between her and Charlie for a while. Charlie releases the album, releases a song, and sends a voice note to Lord saying, Hey, I just want to let you know this song is actually about you.
I'm being robbed my feelings and nice, but it's about you and I shouldn't hide that from you. The Lord says, girl, thank you for sharing. I was feeling the same weirdness too. Let me hop on the remix with my own verse talking about this. So then they both release a remix where they sing to each other about working things out and they talk about the complexity of female friendship and how the industry and the world often pits women against each other, but they're not doing that. They have each other's backs, and this remix is this wonderful complex meditation on getting back to love over that complexity. So between those two songs and those two stories, I'm like, wow, is female driven pop having a moment of unity? If so, I love it. So that's my current pop obsession. Yeah,
Doree: I love that.
Sam: Meanwhile, Kendrick and Drake just going to say, meanwhile, the men are like on another. Men are the men are petty, catty bitches. The men don't have shit together.
Elise: So Drake is just done. Now. Do we think he's just over?
Sam: No, he, he's not over. He's like in the ground. He's not over. Listen, no one's ever canceled. Cancellations are just vacations. I say this all the time. Louis Cck is back quietly but back.
No one has ever canceled. He had a special out recently. Most cancellations are just paid vacations so that I don't think Drake is done, but I do think what I find most interesting about this beef is the way both of these men have used women as props. They've both insulted the others' partners and made it seem as if they're looking out for the welfare of their partners. Drake accused Kendrick of being abusive towards his spouse, Kendrick accused Drake of being predatory with underage women, and that's all good and well to stand up for women if you really mean it. But do you stand up for women all the time or do you only stand up for women when that man has pissed you off? And I think about this a lot because in spite of Kendrick saying he's going after Drake, because you're a quote pedophile, Kendrick, the most vocal man in rap right now has said nothing about Diddy, nothing. So if you really were down to ride for the safety of women in your music and your work, particularly in hip hop, shouldn't I expect more from you on that? But it seems like you only bring up the safety of women when you're trying to get back at a guy who pissed you off. So I think about that
Elise: Smart point
Sam: That said,
Elise: Great insight,
Sam: Not like us is such a good song. It's such a good song. Yeah,
Elise: Great insight.
Doree: What do you think is overhyped right now in pop culture
Sam: Influencing? Everybody thinks that because you have a hundred thousand followers wherever that you're making money. There was a really good Wall Street Journal article last week about this. The average influencer, even with a bunch of followers is making like 15 grand a year on that stuff. It's a lot of smoke and mirrors.
Doree: That's it.
Sam: Yeah. I'll send the article to you guys. It's wild. The numbers are wild. A lot of folks who have these big followings, unless they're showing you sponsored posts all the time, they're not making money. So it's a lot of smoke and mirrors and we think these folks are rich because they're popular. Not always the case. Not always the case.
Elise: It seems like such a grind.
Sam: You're your own production studio. You have to self record, self edit, doing your own wardrobe and makeup. You're negotiating your own deals. Back in the day, the work of an influencer would be handled by a team of 10, and now it's just you went home with your ring light, right? I mean, it's wild.
Elise: It's a one man band. And to say nothing of the psychic and emotional text of just performing all the time
Sam: And performing a relationship, I always feel so scared. You can
Elise: Tell we're elder millennials because we're so tapped out of performance.
Sam: I always feel so scared when I find myself liking an influencer couple
Elise: Because
Sam: I'm like, oh, what if they break up and I have to pick Instagram sides and it's all, it's messy. It gives me pause. It gives me pause. I don't want
Elise: To ship them. Yeah. Okay. Well, let me ask you the flip side of this question, which is more hopeful? What's underrated?
Sam: What is underrated?
Elise: What do you want people to get on the bandwagon for?
Sam: What is underrated? I got to think. I got to think. Oh,
Elise: Take your time. I mean, we can edit around.
Sam: What is underrated is the format of the sitcom, the format of the sitcom,
Elise: The old school, like friends sitcom.
Sam: It's not old school. The most successful show on multi-platform right now is Abbott Elementary, a sitcom. The most popular show on Netflix as far back as two years ago was the office, the sitcom abides. I think we were in this moment of streaming and internet and on demand where everyone thought they had to make prestige and limited series and this and this and that, and complex Marvel esque plot lines. But you know what? People love story formats that have a reliable cast of characters that allow you to jump in at any moment and still get it. It works. Gen Z loves the office. Gen Z loves the office. Gen Z loves friends. That's because the model works. Sitcoms have worked since the fifties. They work. Yeah. Like Modern Family Ask
Elise: You. Right? That was on Forever.
Sam: Ask the young people in your life if they're into sitcoms, they might not know the term sitcom, but they like at least one. It is comfort food.
Doree: Yeah. I was just going to say, our world is so fucked up right now that of course we want to retreat into the comfort of a sitcom. We want to laugh. We want to get engrossed in this world that has nothing to do with our current situation
Sam: And we want work that's not homework. A lot of this era of prestige TV and peak TV required the viewer to do homework. I'll never forget when all of a sudden, one of the phrases you'd hear about prestige TV shows was, well, you got to give it two or three episodes.
Doree: For what? Thank you.
Sam: Thank you. What? I'm paying you to do homework. No. There was so much energy around obsessive viewers that would watch everything on a streamer as auteurs.
Elise: No
Sam: Baby. No baby. No.
Elise: And you were looking for all the layers of meaning and the character development and the backstory. It's as if you understood the show
Sam: Bible. Yeah. It's like, no, I just want to watch Ross fall over a couch.
Doree: Right.
Sam: And here's a laugh track.
Doree: Yes. Right. I feel like I can't just jump into any of the Star Wars TV shows or the Marvel TV shows. It's too late. It would take me years to catch up. I don't need that. I don't need that.
Sam: Yes.
Doree: Also, you're so right.
Sam: TV writers do this thing where they act as if everyone who watches their TV show is only watching their TV show with rap attention. People are watching your TV show while they're making dinner, while they're folding laundry, while they're getting their kids together, while they're cleaning their house. A lot of times media is a secondary activity. A secondary activity. Know that
Elise: Sometimes a TV show is just background noise. Exactly. And that's okay.
Sam: Exactly.
Elise: And that's okay.
Sam: Exactly.
Elise: Alright, Sam Sanders, this was so much fun. Thank you for coming on. I
Sam: Feel like I talked way too much. I'm sorry. I just got on a roll and was like,
Elise: We're interviewing you. Okay. That's what happens. Where can listeners find you?
Sam: Yeah, so I host a really fun culture show called Vibe Check with two dear friends of mine, Saeed Jones and Zach Stafford. We publish episodes every Wednesday. You can get 'em wherever you get your podcast. It's two words vibe check. The episode we had this week is all about how the pop girls are not fighting. It was really fun to do. Love it.
We talk about everything and we have a lot of fun. And my hope for the show, and we do this very publicly, is to model how good conversations with friends can feel and can be. I want the show to feel like an example of learning and growing from your friends in a good way, in a positive way. What I love about the three of us is that we rarely agree on anything pop culture related. We all have different taste, but that's true. We really all the time. But we can share our different viewpoints and not be like, you're right, I'm wrong. But learn from the other's viewpoint. I tell folks our arguments on culture on this show feel expansive because when I'm done talking these things out, I've learned more and my base of knowledge feels wider and
Doree: Well. And it also forces you to really interrogate your own opinions and your own
Sam: Point
Doree: Of view if someone's challenging you on them.
Sam: Yeah. No, it feels
Doree: Good. Well, this was great. Thank you so much. And everyone listened to Sam's Show Vibe Check. I'm
Sam: Check. Thank y'all so much for having me. You. This was delightful.
Doree: I just want to live inside Sam's brain for just a little bit, just like an hour. So
Elise: Much is going on there. It's just rapid fire.
Doree: There's so much happening.
Elise: Yeah, there's like seven trains of thought.
Doree: Yes, exactly.
Elise: But he is fun. So much more reflective and more intentional now that he's kind of in his nesting phase as he says.
Doree: Yes. So
Elise: Has slowed. He has really slowed down from his party hosting friend days because you know how he was talking about how there's different eras of how to be a good friend, and now he's the listening friend.
Doree: Now he's the listening friend. I really liked that what he said about not dying on certain hills really resonated with me.
Elise: Yeah.
Doree: Even though that's something that I think about a lot, but just to hear it come from him was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. I sometimes get stubborn about things. I'm annoying.
Elise: We all do though. There's always things that we don't want to put down and give up.
Doree: Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's true. Elise, how did it go being in the moment this past week?
Elise: Because I will have to say, because I set the intention to do so, I did better at it.
Doree: Really?
Elise: Yeah. I remembered that I had set this intention and I set it with you. I also set it with the listeners and as a result, I really tried to, even when I was doing mundane things, like sitting at a light, I was trying to remember to just kind of be there. And I think it's more meaningful to do it when you're connecting with someone. And so I had some good times. I had a good weekend in which we went and saw some live music on a golf course and I tried not to be judgmental about it. There were so many hot young Venice people there.
Doree: Well, and I don't know if this was because we talked about it or you texted me about it, but it started coming up for me on TikTok and there's all
Elise: These always listening
Doree: People who are posting about how there's all these hot guys there. And I've gotten now multiple tiktoks about this event. Funny.
Elise: Are you sad you didn't come? Now Doree? Funny. I guess it's supposed to create FOMO to come next time.
Doree: Totally. I'm definitely sad from an anthropological perspective. I'm definitely like, huh, that's interesting.
Elise: But that was one of those events where I could have gotten judgmental or caught up in making fun of all the content creation that was going to come out of the evening. But instead
Doree: I was, well, here's a question. Did you notice content creation happening during the event?
Elise: No, but my friend Alex, who we were with, he said something like, there are so many people. He's like, this looks like a Hollister catalog. And there are so many people here that look like influencers that there's going to be content creation coming out of this.
Doree: That's so funny. Alex knew
Elise: Alex knew and then he was like, you better create some content. You better create some content and be cool. That's really funny. And I joined in on the, I guess the observations and everything, but more importantly because of last week's intention, I tried to just enjoy the music, enjoy and listening to the music and hanging out with my friends and the stories that they were telling. My er doctor friend came and she was telling these crazy stories. She was like a raconteur of er stories and it was just a night full of just belly laughs and a beautiful sunset and great music and so many dogs. So that was a great example of a night where I could have been kind of judgy and out of myself, but I told myself to be embodied and be there and enjoy my friends. So glad we set that intention. What about you? How did you do with stretching? Every hour.
Doree: So I haven't remembered to stretch every hour, but I have been stretching so much more than I had been previously, so I feel good about that. Good.
Elise: And what's your intention this week?
Doree: Well, this week as we're recording this, we are about to enter a multi-day heat wave here in California.
Elise: Which to be fair to those of you in Phoenix, a heat wave in California is like upper eighties.
Doree: No, I mean you Well. Oh yeah. We're in different parts of town. We're in different parts of town. First of all, where I live is warmer than where you live. And where I live is not as warm as where some other people I know live. So a friend of mine who lives a friend of mine who lives in the valley, her power went out last night already and it's not even that hot yet. Oh no, no ac. So chill over there with your west side privilege, Elise.
Elise: I've been called out. I've been called out. It is cooler here. Your West
Doree: Side weather privilege.
Elise: Yes.
Doree: Fair. In all seriousness, I hope to be spending a lot of time on the west side in the next few days. Come on over because it'll be cooler. We had a listener call in a couple of weeks ago who said, let's normalize staying inside in the summer when it's really hot. And I do want to do that, but I also, if I stay inside too much, I start to get a little nutty. So I figure out ways to get outside without it being a gajillion degrees.
Elise: Okay. Good intention.
Doree: Thank you so
Elise: Much. That's a great summer intention. Mine is not going to be weather related. Something I want to work on is letting the people in my life that I know, and this kind of flows from our conversation with Sam too, letting the people in my life who I love know that I love them or know that I appreciate them. Because when we first started talking to Sam, that was the first time I had been able to sort of introduce Sam as my friend since I was introducing him to you all. I got to introduce Sam as my friend and tell folks how proud I am of him and how important our friendship is. But then he also got to share a little bit about me and what he liked about me. And I just thought, we don't do that in the moment that often, and so I want to do that.
There's so many people who I write about at the end of my day in my journal, when I do gratitude, when I don't have time to journal in a detailed way, I just do three to five bullet points of what I'm grateful for. And it might not be people, it could just be moments like, oh, it's pretty sunset or whatever. It was a beautiful, we had great weather, but when I do do my little gratitude in my journal for people, I sometimes don't tell them to their face. And so my intention is to actually just show, actually voice my appreciation and gratitude and love in the moment.
Doree: Aw, that's really nice. I'm going to try. I need to do more of that too.
Elise: I'm going to try my best. Yeah, I get a little, it feels kind of cheesy or sentimental or whatever, and I think it's hard to always hard to get vulnerable, but I'm going to work on it for sure. I'll work on pushing through.
Doree: Okay. Well everyone, thanks for listening Forever. 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir, and Elise Hugh, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everyone. See you next time. Bye.
*Transcripts are AI generated.