Episode 302: Behind the Beauty with Kirbie Johnson
Kate dives into Doree’s vitamin C drawer and Doree starts a search for her “sole mate” before they bring on beauty expert and Gloss Angeles co-host Kirbie Johnson. She tells them all about the massage place to beat out all others, how her lifelong love affair with makeup has changed over the years, the celebrity beauty brands she recommends, and the industry’s current skincare fixation (spoiler: it’s hair!).
Sorry for Kate’s audio hiccup in the intro of this episode. It gets better, so stick around for the interview!
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums,
Kate: And as I did mention last week, I did get a new retinol from my dermatologist, but then I also have a Tretinoin and I don't know if I can use them both on and off. Not at the same time. I don't think so. I don't think so. But I have to ask the derm. I got asked the derm.
Doree: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. T Trentino has been officially fully incorporated into my routine and I feel like it's working for me
Kate: Really well. When I saw you, we went out to dinner a month or so ago. You were like a glowing flame. Yeah. And you were sick. It was when you were sick.
Doree: Oh, that's right. It was probably the glow of sickness.
Kate: Well, it was working for you because was it was like Benjamin Button vibes, just a dowey. Goddess's,
Doree: Yeah. I've been doing, and oh, and I feel like we haven't discussed this. Kate loves when I just drop a Skincare Bomb that we haven't discussed.
Kate: I do, I really do.
Doree: I've really been using a lot of vitamin C ever since we talked to Dr. Whitney Bow
Kate: Now by a lot of vitamin C. I want to know specifically what brand and then do you mean every morning or are you doing it every
Doree: Morning?
Kate: Twice a day.
Doree: And on the nights that I don't use retinol, I mean Tretinoin.
Kate: Okay. And what vitamin C are you using?
Doree: So right now I'm using a vitamin C serum from a brand called Vetted that sent me some stuff to try, and I do really like it. It's called Vetted Derm Lab is the brand, and they have a vitamin C complex serum that they say is 15% vitamin C complex. Also, this is so funny. I'm looking at the description on their website and says, please note that we do not use neutralizing fragrances in our products. The VC vitamin C complex serum contains ferulic acid, which can have a distinctive smell. It does indeed have a distinctive smell.
Kate: Is that the hot dog smell?
Doree: It's not really a hot dog smell, but it's like a smell. And there've been a couple times where Henry has either kissed my face or he was in a licking phase for a little while and I was like, oh, sorry. Yeah,
Kate: Don't lick my face buddy.
Doree: Yeah. But yeah, that's what I've been using lately and I do really like it. I had been using the May Love vitamin C that I also really liked. So yeah, I mean, I think the key with vitamin C is to use it quickly because it does go bad.
Kate: I know. And I'm the worst at using anything quickly. So
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: I got to get on that. Well, I just also want to note thank you to everybody who has so kindly reached out after our announcement episode last week that I am stepping down from the pod. All you listeners have been so incredibly kind and supportive to both of us, so thank you for that. It means a lot.
Doree: It really does.
Kate: Yeah, a lot. Big time.
Doree: Really truly end of an era.
Kate: I mean, yes. What's wild is we've been doing this podcast long enough for it kind of to be an era. It is a long time. Someone was like, you've been doing this for six years.
Doree: It's true. It's true.
Kate: And most of that was during a pandemic.
Doree: I know, I know.
Kate: Yeah. It is interesting. I mean, we just received a really nice message on our Instagram from someone who was like, I just went through something similar. And they were like, and it's amazing what happens when you open yourself up to something new. And they were speaking to both of us and I was like, this is a really nice message, a nice kind of words of wisdom from someone who is on their own journey.
Doree: I love that.
Kate: Right? Yeah. But I mean, I still am going to need to know what vitamin C serums you're using.
Doree: Yeah. Well, I will tell you,
Kate: I mean, we are still going to be friends. You can still text me.
Doree: Yes, we are still going to be friends. That is true. We are not going to be friends.
Kate: No, this friendship is talking about an eternal flame.
Doree: You can't get rid of this friendship so easily.
Kate: That's kind of how I feel. But It's a big change life. It's a change.
Doree: It's a change.
Kate: It's also a change when an era ends for you. And I think anytime you leave a job that you have been at for a while, it can feel very unsettling. And I'm leaving, but yours is changing and that is also unsettling. There's a wobbly period.
Doree: Totally. For sure.
Kate: That will be interesting to navigate.
Doree: Yeah, I know it's a lot. And Elise has big size 11 shoes to fill,
Kate: And I'm afraid they might be going up to size 12. I feel like my feet are only growing.
Doree: Mine went up to, basically my right foot is a 10 and a half my left foot. See, that's the problem too. My right foot is noticeably bigger than my left foot
Kate: To the common eye. Someone staring at your feet would be like,
Doree: no, no, no. But when I measure my feet,
Kate: you feel it. Right?
Doree: Foot is like, I think it's a solid quarter size bigger.
Kate: Is there a shoe company where you can order different, you don't have to order shoes in a pair.
Doree: So I think that some places will let you do it if you're like an amputee and you only need one shoe.
Kate: That makes a lot of sense.
Doree: I don't know if just little old me with two different sized feet, but what would be ideal is if I could find someone with similarly sized feet who had the opposite problem,
Kate: That would be
Doree: Their left foot and we had the same taste in shoes,
Kate: That would be what if you find that person hats off to you?
Doree: That is my twin flame.
Kate: That would be truly amazing. You have the same taste in shoes and the same alternate.
Doree: Yes, exactly.
Kate: With different sizes.
Doree: We could just buy the shoes and then swap the appropriate ones.
Kate: Somebody out there must. Right.
Doree: I know.
Kate: It's kind of like you would think, I mean, do you believe that every one of us has a doppelganger?
Doree: I'll put it this way. I don't not believe it. And I also believe, especially if you look throughout human history, maybe my doppelganger was alive in 1647.
Kate: Oh my gosh. Yes.
Doree: You know what I mean?
Kate: Yes. How weird is that? It's possible,
Doree: Of course. Yeah. All this stuff is very strange. And
Kate: Well, if you're a Doree's foot soulmate, please reach out to the podcast. Our email is in the show notes. Doree would love to hear from you. But also Doree has very good taste in footwear styles.
Doree: I do.
Kate: You've got to be on your game here.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: You've always had a good shoe taste.
Doree: Thank you. Although lately it's gotten tougher.
Kate: Well, because you're leaning more toward, I would say, comfort and you, you know your feet better, right? You're a narrow healed person.
Doree: Yes, that is true.
Kate: So it limits your choices.
Doree: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, Kate, should we introduce our illustrious guest?
Kate: Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to talk to this person. Talk about a beauty expert, talk about a person who's opinions I trust.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Talk about style, talk about pizazz. I'm talking about Kirby Johnson.
Doree: Yeah, you are.
Kate: Kirby is an on-camera host a podcaster. She's the co-host of Gloss Angeles, I would say that is a sister or a cousin PO to Forever35. She's a producer and a journalist. She started her career at Pop Sugar in 2011, and she helmed several shows for them. She grew Pop Sugar's, beauty, video presence online. She has taken her written content to publishers like Allure and turned it into fascinating videos for platforms like TikTok, YouTube shorts, and Instagram reels. She's racking up those billions and billions of views she offers great behind the scenes set secrets for shows like Euphoria, stranger Things. She's just a true expert.
Doree: She's so cool.
Kate: And a couple more things to note about Kirby. She was nominated for a 2022 iHeartRadio podcast award in the fashion and beauty category, well deserved I'd say. And you can listen to Los Angeles wherever you get podcasts. She and her co-host, Sarah Tan, also Wonderful. Break down the bullshit in the industry while Edutaining listeners on how ingredients actually work. They really do break down all the different claims. What's marketing, what brands you should actually be buying. They've had some amazing guests. It's a great pod. They are both so smart and insightful and also wildly charming. So we're very excited to talk to Kirby. She's a star.
Doree: Yeah, we'll be right back.
Kate: Kirby, welcome back to the show. We're feeling excited.
Doree: We love a repeat guest.
Kirbie: I am thrilled. I'm honored to be a repeat guest.
Doree: You're also one of the last guests that Kate will get to interview.
Kate: That's right. So you better I can bring your A game, Kirby.
Kirbie: I know. Shit, Help me.
Kate: Okay. No pressure here, but I need this to pop. I need this interview to be,
Kirbie: let's expose some people. let's do this. Let's go off the bank.
Kate: Yes. Give me all your beauty dirt.
Kirbie: Oh my God, you actually so excited.
Kate: I mean, you are a beauty editor and I would love to get into all kind of insider beauty stuff with you.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: I find that I turn to you for beauty coverage often via Instagram, and I do find you're very matter of fact and straightforward with what is working and what you can just gently put aside. And I appreciate that.
Kirbie: Thank you. That's my goal. I always am trying to just help. I'm a helper.
Kate: Well, how do you help yourself is the question we're going to start with. What is a self-care practice that is doing it for you right now? Do you have something that you do on a regular basis to provide yourself with care?
Kirbie: Yes. This is going to sound a little bougie, but I make time for a massage. I need physical touch,
Kate: Not Bougie.
Kirbie: Okay, good. Sometimes people are like, well, it is a luxury to be able to go get a massage. Right? But I love physical touch. I need that. I find that I connect with people if I first meet them and they wrap their arm around mind, I'm like, oh, we are simpatico. This makes me feel safe. This makes me feel good. And I go to Squeeze, which is in Studio City. They only have one LA location right now, which is insane to me because they've been alive and kick in for a while now. But I think they're opening more locations. And I like that you just use an app. You don't have to call, you don't have to figure out. You can see what type of therapist, whether I identify as a man or woman or whatever you prefer. You can adjust the type of music that you're listening to through this app. So basically when you show up, everything is catered to you. Oh yes. You two need to go. It is truly a girl's a wonderful Girl's day activity.
Kate: And I go to the Now for Massages, which is a chain, and I like it.
Kirbie: And now I think has so many locations in LA and it's like you go in, you have to be quiet so you don't have to worry. They're not walls, they're like curtains. It's supposed to feel like you're in Tulum getting a massage. And that's what I love about it. It's like the sound machines are on and you hear the waves and you have to be quiet. But there's something about Squeeze that I will travel over the hill. I live in West Hollywood, and I'll travel over the hill to Studio City to go, I have a membership, and so I pay a certain amount every month and that goes into my bank. And if I don't use it one month, it carries over. So sometimes I have enough to do two massages a month, but usually it's enough for 1 80 minute massage and I have my little groove. I go do that, and it's like two hours of me just chilling and not having to think about work or anything else going on in my life. So that's what I do to kind of keep my sanity.
Kate: Love that.
Doree: Yeah, that sounds perfect. I also, I just looked it up. It looks like they are opening a couple more locations in la. It says coming 2024 to Santa Monica in Pasadena
Kirbie: Finally.
Kate: Hallelujah. Thank God.
Kirbie: Thank God they have so many around the country like a franchise. So they're rapidly expanding. And one of the founders is actually Ally Webb of Drybar.
Kate: I see this.
Kirbie: Yes. So it's like her and a co-founder, and they basically were like, how do we make this an easy experience? One of the best things that they have at Squeeze is when you get on the table and you're just like, you're obviously naked and you're just laying there with your face down and you're like, when are they coming in
Kate: The waiting period?
Kirbie: Yeah. You're so vulnerable laying there with Squeeze, you get undressed to your liking, and then you get on the bed face down, and there's a little button underneath the bed that you press and it turns on a green light and lets your therapist know that you are ready for them to come in.
Kate: Oh, that's genius.
Kirbie: It's so smart. So you never get this awkward encounter. Sometimes they wait a long time and you're like, you're cutting into my massage time. I want you to get in here and start. So it's just they know immediately when you are ready for the hands to be on the body
Kate: That I start to get worried where I'm like, they've gone away or they said, can I come in? And I didn't hear it. And now I go to this bizarro worst case massage scenario whenever that's happened.
Kirbie: Totally. And that solves that. So I love it.
Kate: Cool. Endorsement. I have never even heard of Squeeze. So this will be on my list to try this year.
Kirbie: Yes.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: Kirby, what was your intro into beauty? Are you one of those people who was like, I was experimenting with makeup when I was four? Or did you kind of come to it later in life? Has it been an ongoing experience for you? You were a beauty editor, but I would say also more importantly, a beauty lover, I would think.
Kirbie: Yes. Yes.
Kate: When did that start for you? What was the entry point?
Kirbie: So my mom was a cosmetologist. So growing up I was her little doll. She would perm my hair. She gave me the Princess Diana cut to my disliking when I was in fourth grade.
Doree: Oh My God.
Kate: Fourth grade with the princess Di cut
Kirbie: And the blowout of it all. I mean, really, she was prepping me. She wanted me to marry Prince William, actually, which is so funny. But I really got, I was like, oh, my mom does these really cool things that can change my appearance. People growing up thought I had naturally curly hair. She'd been perming my hair for so long, looked like Shirley Temple. So
Doree: oh my God.
Kirbie: That was my introduction. And then I remember my grandmother used to collect these little, I think they were Avon lipsticks. They were sample sizes. They were so tiny. And you would get them,
Kate: oh, my grandmother had those two, the little tiny lipsticks. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yes.
Kirbie: They came out with a tin a couple of years ago as an homage to those original lipsticks. And I refuse to throw it away because I'm like, oh, this reminds me of my grandma. But my mom has stories of me putting lipstick all over my face and all over my body. So I was very early on a beauty lover. And then I started to read Allure Magazine, the Bible. And I remember loving going to the beauty directory in the back and seeing when I was a teenager, oh, I grew up in Texas, in the Austin area. So I would be like, oh, they're recommending this salon at the Arboretum in Austin. Maybe I could go there and get my hair cut. And then I would see the prices. I'm like, nevermind, that's not happening. But I felt like it was such a cool thing to be able to see all of these different types of people and what they offered, whether it was hairstyling or nails or makeup or whatever it was. And Allure also kind of opened me up to the world of celebrity glam squads. I remember they weren't called glam squads at the time, but I remember being like, oh, Hillary Duff has a makeup artist and a hairstylist that did her look for this story. Or I remember one time Hillary recommended Mario Badescu rosewater spray. And I'm sure that was a paid placement, but I didn't know that. But I remember asking my mom to take me to the arboretum in Austin, Texas, so I could go to this one place that carried Mario Badescu and I could pick up that rosewater spray. And then I thought I was hot shit in seventh grade, spritzing myself in the middle of the hallway. And my teachers were like, what is she doing? And my friends are like, what is that? So it was an early love affair. And it's so funny because I think it's the term beauty editor has changed so much from when it first began to now before not only were you editing stories, but you were really curating what beauty was. And I think that there's still that element now, but since print media is dying and even digital is really at a crossroads right now, there's not so much of the tastemaking element anymore. And I always joke that I was the worst beauty editor because anytime I turn in a story, it's like that's what they pay you all the big bucks for to edit my stories. I'm just the beauty writer. I just send it to you and then you make it look good. You make it look and sound good. So yeah, I've always had the passion for, I love it.
Kate: Do you feel like your perspective has changed as you've gotten older or your relationship to beauty or understanding its role in culture and influencing culture has changed? Obviously it's obviously a changing thing, but has your perspective changed with time?
Kirbie: Totally. I remember moving to LA and thinking that makeup was a non-negotiable for me, that I always had to be presenting a certain way, looking a certain way. Even my hair color, I had to be blonde. I wanted to be a Jessica Simpson or a Britney Spears. And I actually moved to LA to pursue on-camera work. And so I would see who they were putting on tv. And at the time, it was a lot of brunettes, so I was like, oh, if I want to stand out, I need to maintain my blonde. It was just like things like that. And then as you get older, you, for me, I'm like, my face is changing. The amount of makeup that I used to wear is not going to look as great anymore. The way that I used to maybe contour my face or highlight my face has completely changed. And then also my relationship to it. I am fine going out in public, no makeup at all, wearing a star face and a hat and calling it a day. I don't feel like I need to present any particular way anymore. But I do still love the act of putting it on. To me, it's art. It's like, okay, I want my shadow to have a gradient and I want my wing to be super sharp, and then how do I pair the right? That's fun? To me, it's like a little art project. And so I find value in that because it's fun. But I always tell people, I think one misconception is that when you're in the beauty industry, you're constantly judging other people. It's like how I feel about fashion. I'm like terrified of fashion people, please just don't judge my outfit. I don't even know how to dress myself properly. I don't know what's cool or not. Just I buy what I feel good in and what's comfortable on me. And in the beauty industry, I think a lot of people are thinking, oh, they're judging how good my makeup looks, or if I have pores, which is so crazy. Yes, we have pores. We've had pores. Everybody has pores. But for me, I'm never looking at someone and going, I wish I could fix that. Or I wish, Ooh, she would look better if she did this. That's not even something that I think about. And so that's kind of where I try to come from is not telling people how they should be doing something, but if they're curious about something and maybe they're noticing like, oh, my eyes are getting a little heavier as I'm getting older, or I feel like I look tired all the time, I'm trying to provide solutions that can help them but not make them feel like they're not worthy enough, if that makes sense.
Doree: Yeah. It's so funny because we were just talking about how as we age, our makeup looks different on our face and we have to use different products just because our skin has changed, that is just a biological reality.
Kirbie: Totally.
Doree: You mentioned star face, and I wanted to ask you, do you have thoughts on how Gen Z approaches beauty? Because in some ways, it seems to me that they seem so much more sort of liberated and willing to walk out of the house with a pimple patch on their face or just have acne and they're cool with it. But
Kate: Sorry, that was my phone. Oh, no.
Doree: I guess I'm just wondering, do you think that all of that is authentic and how do you think that's going to evolve as they age?
Kirbie: This is such a good question, but it's also a hard one because
Doree: Totally
Kirbie: To your point, they are so liberated. They don't feel like they have to model the way they look off of certain constructs that maybe we were used to growing up. Their idea of makeup could be anything from the quote, clean girl look, which is very, very minimal and fresh face to a full beat down like Chapel Rone performance makeup, which I love because it's really freedom of expression and having fun with it. But what I will say is I think that I had a problem with TikTok, especially where I think Gen Z is the most rampant in terms of consumerism in that they would look at people in their thirties and they would say one of two things. If they didn't like what you had to say, they would be like, okay, you're old geriatric. Or they would figure out a way to minimize you by saying that you look old or that you are old. And it's like when I first got on TikTok, I was probably 33, 34, and I'm like, this is not old just on a fact, but you don't like what I have to say, or maybe you don't like the way I'm saying it, and you are now deciding to cut me down based on my looks. Alternatively, they would look at you and go, oh my God, you look so good for your age as if being in your thirties means that you are supposed to be decrepit and ready to open up the crypt for someone. And
Doree: And also that it's this huge compliment for one of them to be saying, you look young,
Kirbie: Right? And I'm just like, this is absolutely crazy to me because I mean, I remember when I was in high school, when I met someone in their thirties, I thought that person had it together and they were an adult. And it's like as everybody listening to this knows as you get older, you realize your parents are living their life for the first time. You're living this life for the first time, you're still figuring it out. And sure, I look composed, I look mature, whatever. But I still feel 18 at heart sometimes. So I don't know where Gen Z is going to go with this. I do find it really fascinating because even Gen Alpha is getting into the beauty conversation. I mean, gen Alpha's obsessed with Drunk Elephant. They will have these little skincare parties, so they'll set up their phones in their bathrooms, FaceTime all their friends, and they will remove their makeup. I'm putting that in quotes, like, what really are they wearing at that age? And have a little skincare party before they go to sleep. And I sure as heck was not doing that. We obviously didn't have the technological capabilities to do stuff like that, but I find that more of my friends who have kids that are in the 7, 8, 9, 10 range, they're asking for parties where they go learn how to do a facial at home on themselves. So I feel conflicted like you're a kid, just enjoy your life. But then at the same time, there are studies that young women are going through menstruation way earlier as young as eight, nine years old. So with that could come with hormonal changes, breakouts, things of that nature. And just to pivot off of that, there is a bill that's being introduced or may be introduced into legislation here in California where it would ban certain ingredients to kids under the age of, I think 13. And initially I was like, oh, this is interesting because they're really trying to keep young children from being marketed anti-aging products, which I think we can all agree is a good thing. But I think where it's going to get lost, and I don't think this will actually pass or be introduced, is the, there's two categories of ingredients that they want to get rid of for this particular demographic. And that's vitamin A, and its derivatives, which a lot of us know as retinoids. And then citric acid, glycolic acid and ascorbic acid, ascorbic acid, vitamin C. And I'm thinking to myself, there are so many kids that benefit from retinoids for acne, and on top of that, how are they expecting any of these retailers to validate that the person that's buying these products isn't going to give them to a 10-year-old anyways. You know what I mean? So it's just nuts that this is a part of the beauty zeitgeist that we're now talking about potential bills to keep young children from purchasing anti-aging products. It's wild.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, I have an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old, so I have one at the tail end of Gen Z and one at the beginning of Gen Alpha. Essentially both of them are as you've described, but my 11-year-old did do what you just said recently with a friend who lives not out of, they live in different states and they wanted to talk FaceTime and she FaceTimes friends often, but she was like, we did our skincare routines together. What does that mean? And then she's like, we watched our faces and that was it.
Kirbie: Okay. Okay. I was going to say, what is her skincare routine? I love hearing about this.
Kate: Her older sister's very into skincare and stuff, so my younger one has kind of picked up on it, but she doesn't really use any, she thinks the things are cool and she's like, oh, this is neat, but doesn't really do any of it. It's more like she's collected little tchotchkes and I have made a practice of always trying to teach them to wash their face, put on sunscreen the same way. I'm like, let's brush and floss. You know what I mean? That feels like care, that body care that I just want to instill in them. So she kind of will do that occasionally. Don't think she was like, we just washed our faces. They didn't even really, I don't think know what they were talking about, but they did want to talk to each other on FaceTime and wash their faces together. Cute.
Kirbie: It's cute. Which I appreciate.
Kate: It's cute. But it is something, and we've talked about this on the podcast a lot, where they are getting so much information that even in the ways that I have tried to set boundaries with my kids and their access to stuff online and apps and everything, it is still, it's still all fine. It's like slang or anything else. It all finds its way into their worlds if they are. My kids go to big schools and they talk to a lot of people and they hear a lot of things and they get a lot of information.
Doree: Totally. The ages and stuff with Gen Z is interesting though because they are so aware of everything else, and this seems like a huge blind spot for them. And I feel like there's also been some stuff lately about how obsessed they are with looking old and I guess not looking old. And so it does seem like ageism is kind of the last frontier. We should all be trying to be age neutral maybe.
Kate: Well, I mean you think that also has something to do with the way in which the normalization, and I think just the way injections are so much more commonplace now than they were even 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And I feel like I see people in their twenties getting things like Botox and fillers, whereas the way I had always thought about it was like once you hit a certain age, you do that if you want because you're getting old. But now there's the language of preventative Botox and it seems like it's very commonplace for millennials and Gen Z in a way that I am still kind of like what?
Kirbie: It's crazy because preventative anything, especially with injectables, is just a straight up marketing campaign, right? It's like got milk. It's like, okay, came for the masses. No, literally it's like preventative Botox. And so you're like, what? And we often on Los Angeles get asked too, when should I start? And I'm like, you might not need Botox. You might not need any neuromodulator. You can really f up your face too. I mean, I do appreciate some of these influencers that are like, oh, I thought masseter Botox was going to make my face look like Bella. And then it just made me look 20 years older because my entire face fell because I didn't have what I needed to fill out my lower face.
Kate: What is massacre? What part? What is that masseter Botox
Kirbie: that chewing muscle. So if you grind your teeth or you clench at night, which is what I do, you can get an injection, a very small amount of whatever neuromodulator you prefer in there. And it will basically relax that muscle so that it's not as prominent and it can really round out the face. But you have to be careful because it can also make your face fall because you do need something to hold up the sides of the face. But yeah, it's like if you have TMJ, a lot of people will say like Masser Botox could potentially help you, especially you have a more square face and it's not even square. It's more like if your masser muscles are so pronounced that it almost makes a trapezoid, they jut out to the side and then your lower face comes in and if you notice that you could benefit from masser Botox just to relieve any pain that you might be experiencing from that. But I've gotten that in the past. I'm not regular with it because I like the shape of my face, so I'm not trying to change. But now that's what it's being used for. They're like, Hey, well do masser Botox and then I'll put a little here and a little here on your lower face and then we'll make your face look more oval or we'll give you plastic surgeons call it the face shape of use, which is more like of a rounded face or whatever. And that's the thing about TikTok too. It's really democratized these intense beauty services, which I don't have kids, but this is probably the number one reason why I wouldn't want my kids on social media is getting access to see things like people flying across the world to get a hair transplant or there was a really bad trend of people flying, I can't even remember where it was, somewhere across the world to go get veneers and they were shaving these people's teeth so far down and giving them these really crazy looking ossified teeth to the point where actual cosmetic dentists in the United States were like, this girl is going to have so many problems as she ages because she's probably going to start, her bone is going to start deteriorating.
Doree: Oh god,
Kirbie: I know. Crazy stuff. But it's the thing about TikTok, it's like, oh, they sold you this in a two minute video, but you didn't bother to go to see who is this person? Are they just some random or are they a person that actually knows what they're talking about? And it's kind of wild. It's kind of wild. That is how things catch fire these days.
Kate: Okay, well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This is the other thing that I kind of struggle with in terms of the TikTok ification of everything, is that it seems to have homogenized beauty standards even more than they already were, which was already very extreme. I'm just thinking about veneers, and Doree knows this is a recent obsession of mine. I don't think I realized, especially
Doree: it's a long time obsession of mine
Kate: if you were already on it. And it just dawned on me that these teeth that I kept seeing on film and TV weren't real. But also I think a lot of these people that we are seeing who aren't, they're celebrities, but they're in the influencer space are all doing these things and everybody has kind of just started to morph into the same, I don't know, it's just the idea of individual expression feels like it's starting to get lost a little bit. And I don't know, maybe I'm not seeing, maybe I need to expand my horizons, but that just feels like a little bit of what it's like online these days.
Kirbie: No, Kate, I think you're right because I think one of the points you're trying to make is obviously there are creators of color that look very different than what we're seeing from this very homogenized beauty standard. However, TikTok really does focus on this one specific group. You know what I mean?
Kate: Well, the algorithm essentially isn't also the algorithm essentially racially biased. It's racist, right?
Kirbie: There's been stories about that.
Kate: Yeah, more white influencers in your feed, et cetera, et cetera.
Kirbie: Totally. And so I like to tell people it's funny, I was driving down third street and I saw this advertisement. I could not tell you what the brand was, but I remember looking at the models and going, that feels so 20 16, 20 17, because they look like carbon copies of the Kardashians. And I feel like at that point it was the long jet black hair. It was the very, very overfilled lips. It was like this tiny, tiny waist and these big butts and they were super tan. And I remember being like, oh yeah, this is Kardashian cosplay, but it feels dated. It feels very much of a time of maybe 2016 to 2019. Now what we're seeing is I feel like we'll look back in five or 10 years and be like, oh yeah, that pandemic era, that 24, 20 25, it's like these insanely perfect teeth that everybody has. It'll be like the veneer era where nobody has any personality to their smile because it all looks like this completely white, straight across smiles. So when I talk about trends, I think every expert I've ever interviewed hates talking trends because if you're a hair colorist and makeup artist, they don't want to do what's trending. They want to do their best, most artistic work and also what kind of caters to the editorial they're doing or the red carpet that they're doing or the person that they're working on, they're not really like, okay, well this sunset blush is trending, so let's do that on the carpet or whatever. But they have to play the game if they want to get coverage in on websites or whatever, or if they want their video to go viral. So sometimes some of these people are just making up things and you're like, the wolf cut is literally the shag. What are we doing here? It's like repurposing things that already exist. It can get really, really, it can be frustrating and it can get monotonous as well where you're like, everything looks the same. This is nothing new. I joke that literally I should just start doing very baseline beauty videos. Here's how to apply your mascara because I think everybody knows how to do that, but there's no, please a hundred s do that, people that don't. You know what I mean?
Doree: No. It's the how to cook spaghetti of beauty videos,
Kate: how to rice.
Doree: I think everyone knows how to
Kirbie: Make rice, make rice. Oh my god.
Doree: Sometimes people really don't.
Kirbie: No, totally.
Doree: With all that said though, are there any beauty trends or products like hot products that you're like, oh, I actually really like this?
Kirbie: Okay, so I think in terms of trends, what we're seeing right now is hair. Hair is the big industry bucket that a lot of people are investing their time and money into. We went through the very heavy matte makeup of the late 2010s, then the pandemic hits and we're forced to a look at ourselves all the time via Zoom. We're at home and we're like, oh, maybe I should get my skin in check because we're all wearing masks and there's masking and all that stuff. So people really went hard on their facial skin. Then they were like, what about our bodies body care? So then we saw this influx of body care brands In the past year, we've seen hair brands skyrocket because now people don't just want to have a skincare routine. They want a haircare regimen. They want to say, okay, on Mondays I'm doing my clarifying mask On Tuesdays I use my shampoo conditioner, and then I don't wash Wednesday, Thursday, and then Friday I do this. They want to have just as much of a regimen as they do with their hair, as they do with their skincare. And so we're seeing the skin ification of hair scalp products are huge right now. There's so many scalp serums, so many scalp clarifiers because your scalp skin is skin. It needs some love as well. And I don't know about y'all, but I remember growing up and being told through marketing or otherwise that you always need to trim your hair and cut your hair so that your hair will grow. And it's like, no, your hair grows from your actual head. It grows from your scalp. Your hair may look better when you trim it so that it's all one length and it's not broken looking and stuff, but that's not making your hair grow faster. Trimming your hair is not doing that. Again, it's like marketing that is so funny. Got milk. So that's a big trend right now, the ification of hair. Every day I feel like I get a pitch for a new haircare brand in terms of products that I'm loving right now. I really do. I never get sick of this question because I really love telling people about brands and why they're worth it. So K 18 just launched this product called Air Wash, and if you're not familiar with K 18 there brand,
Kate: I've seen a post about this.
Kirbie: Okay, yeah, this video really blew me away. I just thought, okay, let me just try this and see what happens. And I was shook. So K 18 created this hair mask. It's the $75 bottle. You're like, why would I buy $75 hair mask? And the whole thing is you only need a pea size amount of it. No matter how long your hair is. I definitely use more. But you wash your hair and then you use this mask after you wring out your hair, you leave it on for four minutes so you don't worry about drying your hair or whatever. You leave it on for four minutes and then you can get out of the shower and go about your regular styling. You don't have to worry about washing it out. And I think that was the biggest problem with hair masks in the past is you kind of had to interrupt your entire shower going experience to leave the thing on for 10 or 15 minutes. And it's like, okay, so do I shave my legs in between that? How do I make sure that the water isn't also getting on my hair while it's in there? This, it was basically like it's a mask, it's going to repair your hair, but it's also kind of like a conditioner you don't wash out and you just go on with your life. And they launched, I believe in 2020, like early 2020 because I went and got a professional salon service with the team and then the pandemic hit, and then they launched the consumer friendly version. And this product, I've talked to countless people, has completely changed their hair, the integrity of their hair, how strong it is, whether it's colored or not. And so people mean they just sold, the brand just sold to Unilever Prestige for an undisclosed amount of money after only being around for three years. So Unilever really believes in the science behind this brand, and we'll probably see it rolling out to a lot more Unilever brands in the future, but they just launched this product called K 18 Air Wash. It's their first foray into styling. It's a dry shampoo, but dry shampoo is a name that's not exactly accurate because it's a wet product, so it's not aerosol. When you spritz it, it's a pump and it comes out wet. And so you're kind of like, is this going to mess up my hair? What's going on? But it doesn't is proven to actually clean your scalp, remove odor. So it's great for after the gym, after sports, after vacation, the beach, whatever. And the video that Kate's referencing is I had in hair oil, I went and I got a treatment and I had hair oil all up in my scalp and my hair looked really gross and greasy. And I was like, you know what? Let me just see if this could change anything about my look. I did a few spritzes, I massaged it through and my hair looked good as new and my hair looked good as new the next day and the next day and the next day. And so one of the claims they make is that you spritz it and you're good for three days. You don't have to apply more of it. You're just good. And it really lived up to it for me. So I think there's a reason why this is sold out. You can't get it anywhere.
Kate: So I'm on the Sephora website right now and it's sold out.
Kirbie: It's crazy, but it's expensive. That's the thing. It's a $48 dry shampoo, and normally you're like, I could get Batiste for $7 at Urban Outfitters or something. Why would I spend that much? But I think that when we broke it down, it's like the large bottle is supposed to last you at least six months if you use the appropriate amount as indicated. So it's like $48 over six months. That's not bad at all. And I try to always think about that when I'm recommending a product. Do I love Law Prairie? Yeah, that stuff is great, but do I have the Law Prairie budget? Absolutely not. I've told Sarah plenty of times, I'm like, this La Prairie product is great, but I can't recommend that someone go out and buy this $355 essence. It's not a necessary thing unless you just have the money to spend and then good for you, good for you. But yeah, I think K eighteen's really killing it right now. I'm a huge fan of theirs.
Kate: Are there any celebrity brands in the beauty space that you think are really doing it right? One thing we've talked about recently is the oversaturation of celeb brands and everybody getting in on the trend and making money off of having their own skincare line or makeup line. But who do you think who is actually one as a celebrity, truly invested in their products and two, making really good stuff?
Kirbie: So I think that we're going to leave Fenty and Rare Beauty out of this because
Kate: yes, because we know those are good.
Kirbie: They're good. Selena Gomez sold $70 million worth of blush last year. She's clearly killing it. Serena Williams actually just launched a brand, and it's called Win WYN, and it's available at Ulta. It's very much leaning into the tennis of it all. So everything is this, well, everything is this chart, green, yellow tennis ball color, but the point of difference for her brand is it's made for women on the go and it's supposed to last. So there's a two in one lip and cheek stain. There's this really beautiful skin tint that's not irritating if you're sweating when you're outside, but need a little bit of coverage. She has really a full line, and I've had the opportunity to test it. And I think that the skin tint is really great. It comes in so many shades and it's like the perfect tinted moisturizer. It's not oily. So a lot of these skin tints are like oil-based and I can't use them, but I like that this one really actually feels more like a tinted moisturizer. It hydrates the skin, it gives you that nice glow and that coverage that you need without settling into your lines, and then there's literally a shade for everyone. I found my perfect match and because I went into this Ulta to check it out, and I was very, very impressed. Also, I have to say her timing was pretty incredible because obviously she's the queen of tennis, and right now we're having this huge tennis core moment. And then we had challengers come out with Zendaya and people have just literally, I'm making a video about how she just really has divine timing. Serena Williams, because she launched this brand not knowing Tennis Core was going to be huge this year, and then it just happened. So I think she, even though her brand is new, I think that the products are great. The formulas are performance-based and effective and work really well and it's fun and different looking, which I think unfortunately a lot of people care about packaging. They want to know, okay, I have this, I'm separating myself from everybody else. I got to say Road is I think a really smart brand. Haley Bieber is very involved with her brand. So oftentimes a lot of these celebrities, they come onto their brands as the face, so they're not really making a lot of the decisions, they show up for photo shoots and press days, and sure, they might get a little bit into product formulation, but they don't have the ability to make a lot of business decisions. And it's like that's kind of what we are seeing happen right now with Rose Inc. I don't know if you guys saw, but Rosie Huntington Whiteley announced that she was leaving her brand Rose Inc. And that was because she said the brand had gotten acquired by a different company last year and she felt it was her time to step away. What happened was is Amris the company that owns Rose Inc. JVN Beauty Stripes from Naomi Watts, a bunch of these celebrity hair, skin and makeup brands went bankrupt. Amus owns another big skin hair company called Biosense, but they went bankrupt last year and they had a fire sale for a lot of these brands, including JVN and Rose Inc. So Rosie didn't really have any say so in that, and it's unclear whether she was given the opportunity to buy the brand back herself and own it or not. But she is stepping away now from the brand, and I don't know if JVN is doing the same thing, but in those cases, they weren't the ones that bootstrapped these endeavors and made it happen. Haley put in a lot of her own money as well to start this brand, and I believe she has a seat on the board. So whatever is going on with her brand, she's fully invested in and she has a say so in it. She has a bunch of really great people surrounding her as well. So it's like, yes, they are skincare and I love the skincare products. The BRC moisturizer is one of my favorites, especially for sensitive skin. And then the lip products, a lot of people love, I love them too. I always have one, but then they go into this phone case which went viral because it holds your lip gloss. And I think that's the type of innovation, honestly, I love this brand and everybody that follows me knows that. But it reminds me a lot of the early days of Glossier where it's like they were shipping out products and those pink bubble wrap packages and people wanted those so they could carry them around and say, I had the Glossier bag, and it's like, that probably costs $4 and is maybe not great for the environment, but everybody wanted them and so she was really able to capitalize on road being a lifestyle versus road just being skincare or lipt tins or whatever.
Doree: So are you still using,
Kirbie: they're not available in retailers,
Doree: are you still using the phone case?
Kirbie: Yes. I don't have it on my phone right now because I film, so I have to take it off. But anytime I go out, everyone asks me like, oh my gosh, I wanted this so bad. I wasn't able to get it. I am on the wait list. So I feel like it's one of those really genius ways to extend a brand without having to make another beauty product.
Doree: She or whoever is running her marketing is a genius, I think, because they create demand for these products by intentional scarcity, and now everybody wants all of her products. So it's kind of brilliant.
Kirbie: Totally. I'm trying to think if there's any other, it's so funny. I used to be like, oh God, another celebrity brand. And then I was like, wait, I feel like I'm using a lot of celebrity products or influencer products, but they're rampant because everywhere. So it's hard for me not to, but I, I'm looking right now like a CSAs display, and that's not an influencer brand. That's not a celebrity brand. And I've loved Kase since I met the founder, Sheena in 2015. I think they've done a really beautiful job with their brand. I think they also take consumer feedback very seriously and they will relaunch products if they feel that they have fallen short in some aspects. So I love cosa. I'm looking around, there's a bunch, there's actually a new celeb brand that just launched called, or Bella, it's from Bella Hadid. It's a fragrance line, and this is what it looks like, little Crystal, and this is I believe the 50 milliliter version, but you can buy it and there's a little stand that it sits on so you can display it, otherwise they just look lay sideways. But there are three different fragrances, and if you look, you can see that there's an oil in it. It's an alcohol free fragrance that they're calling. It's a bi phase skin scent. So when you spritz it on, there's a little bit of oil slash balm that gets on you that you can rub in to your skin and it helps for the fragrance to linger. And it kind of reminds me of if you had a little locket with the solid perfume, do you guys have any solid perfumes?
Doree: I don't have any solid perfuses.
Kate: I know what you, I have in the past. yes.
Kirbie: So it's like taking a solid perfume and then putting it into a liquid fragrance so that it lasts longer and it lingers on the skin a little bit longer. And I'm personally, I think the scents are very unique. One's really masculine. One reminds me of being a kid, and then one is very feminine in a way that it's kind of hard to explain, but I've been wearing it out and people keep asking me, what are you wearing? That's amazing. I'm like, it's Bella Hadid's fragrance. So I'm a fan. Way to go, Bella. I know.
Kate: Okay, Bella Hadid interesting. I wasn't expecting a Bella Hadid reference in this episode. I saw that she launched something, but I honestly was like, I don't know what that is.
Kirbie: Listen, Bella Hadid is living her best life. She lives in Fort Worth, Texas and is dating a cowboy and is just living her little free spirit life. And that's all I want for her.
Kate: Yeah, she really is. I like the cowboy situation she's got going on.
Kirbie: Same.
Kate: Oh, well, Kirby, this has been a delightful conversation.
Doree: So I mean, yeah, the best,
Kirbie: It's funny being on the opposite end because I'm like, okay, now I get to interview y'all when do I get get to interview y'all.
Kate: So wild. I mean, anytime you want, but not right now.
Kirbie: No, not right now. But I just want to say, I said this before, but publicly, I admire both of you so much, and I know that the new direction of the show is something that you did not take lightly, and it's such a hard thing to do, Kate, to step away from something that you love, especially with the person you love and Doree, continuing on a path where you're not sure where it's going to go, and you're probably thinking, am I going to be able to recreate the magic or what is the new magic? Or how am I going to do this? I have full faith in you and Kate. I respect you so much for doing what you need to do for yourself. So I love you both.
Doree: Thank you.
Kate: Thank you.
Kirbie: And anytime you need anything, please text me. Whatever you, I would love to stay in touch, obviously in whatever capacity.
Kate: So kind of you.
Doree: Thank you.
Kate: Thanks for saying that. That's
Doree: truly so likewise, and thank you for coming on. It was really, really great to get to talk to you again.
Kirbie: Anytime.
Kate: We saw Kirby at a luncheon a few months ago. You and I, we went to a luncheon. How formal does that sound? We went to a luncheon. A luncheon, and it was for the lovely brand vintner's daughter. It was really wonderful. And Kirby was there. I think we both talked to her and we were both like, oh gosh, please, Kirby, we need to do this with microphones.
Doree: Yes, she's a queen. She is a queen,
Kate: she's a queen. She also had a very beautiful sparkly bag at that lunch that I think about often. I think about it often. Well, Doree, it's time to set some intentions.
Doree: Let's set some.
Kate: This is a meaningful practice that I have loved to doing with you for this era that we have been in, and I'm excited to really think through these last few podcast intentions that I am setting. So, okay, my intention last week was to feel my feelings about departing the show and doing whatever I need to take care of myself. And I'm still kind of doing those things. And I just want to again, just say thanks to you, Doree, and everybody who's just been so supportive this week I need to begin laying out my half marathon walking training program. So I'm going to start doing that. I'm going to put it all into a Google calendar. I'm doing that in October. The other thing I need to do is I need to be very assertive in promoting my book that's coming out next month.
Doree: Oh yes.
Kate: I need to remember to assert. So look, everybody please pre-order one last summer. You will get so many goodies. If you do so many goodies. You'll get a really good bonus content thingy from me. If pre-order it. You can order signed copies. I will have that link for you in our show notes, but it's coming out in a month and I got to put myself out there. So I have two intentions walking and talking about my book.
Doree: Okay, this is exciting, Kate. I'm into this for you.
Kate: I should also note that if anybody's like what half marathon walking program you're doing? I'm using the book Marathoning for Mortals, which is a book I have used for half marathon training for when I've run a half marathon and also run Walk to Half Marathon.
Doree: I like that. Yeah, it's a great book. How about you? Well, last week my intention was about Henry's birthday and this week my intention is about planning my birthday party, which Kate is hosting, which I think we mentioned on the casual chat. And I know Kate, you are just offering your home, but to me that is hosting.
Kate: Well, yes, and I also want to say I will try to not insert myself too much, but I do have a friend who has a beautiful charcuterie board business. If I may donate a charcuterie board to the Eats for the Night,
Doree: I mean, Kate. I'm not going to turn down a charcuterie board. Are you kidding me?
Kate: Beautiful boards. And you. You know what? I believe her best friend listens to this podcast.
Doree: Oh well. Hello.
Kate: She was like, my friend knows who you are. And I was like, oh, okay. So anyway.
Doree: Well, well, well.
Kate: If you're Angie's bestie. Hello. Yeah, tell us about your birthday, Doree. What are your birthday intentions?
Doree: Well, it's been a challenging year and I haven't done lot of the self care pampering, self-care that I used to do more of. I haven't done that in a long time. So I think on my actual birthday, I'm going to do some, I'm going to get a massage and just kind of relax a little bit and worry about the credit card bill later.
Kate: You know what? I love this for you.
Doree: So that I think is what I'm going to do on my actual birthday. And then of course, two days later you are hosting a Bash
Kate: Wild Bash.
Doree: I've hired the DJ and I've invited 500 of my closest friends.
Kate: I cannot wait. KEG stands for days.
Doree: What I'm picturing is the day club vibe of the episode of the oc where they go to Vegas.
Kate: Oh my gosh. So many people kissing at this pool party for Doree's birthday.
Doree: That's what you were picturing, right?
Kate: Oh, a hundred percent.
Doree: Just with a charcuterie board.
Kate: With one charcuterie board. We're not going to one char eat a lot for the 500 people, but Right.
Doree: Yes, exactly. And I'll wear a bikini.
Kate: We all will. We all will.
Doree: Yeah. So I don't know, I kind of celebrating my birthday, I think, because I like to get to see all my friends together.
Kate: Yeah,
Doree: Your birthdays, it's just like a nice time.
Kate: I always have fun at your birthday gatherings because you do a great job of bringing different people together from different parts of your life and everybody kind of doing something together and it not feeling like disparate groups kind of talking in their corners.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, I had this conversation with you off the air, but I think especially coming out of Covid have a real hard time with just parties that I call standing around and talking parties.
Kate: Yeah, I don't think you're alone. I do too.
Doree: So I really need an activity for me to have a good time and hopefully for my guests or your guests as the case may be to have also have a good time. So
Kate: I look forward to toasting you.
Doree: Well, thank you so much. Thanks everyone for listening. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks for listening and for supporting us. We are grateful for you.
Kate: Bye.