Episode 298: Afternoon (Bath) Delight with Sara Shepard
Kate tries a new skincare tool and Doree realizes she’s begun wearing shoes that are way too small. Then, author extraordinaire Sara Shepard (Pretty Little Liars, The Lying Game) joins them to chat about identifying as a “daytime person” and being an afternoon bather, keeping her career spicy through her prolific writing, and how mom communities and desert memories led to the writing of latest book Nowhere Like Home.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: I actually have a skincare thing. I've been playing around with A gifted item, a gifted skincare thing. So first flag that someone sent it to me, and I think you have one too. A zip.
Doree: Oh, I am supposed to be getting one.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: But I do not have one.
Kate: I was heavily influenced by Caroline Moss
Doree: Heard hers.
Kate: Caroline, our friend over at the G thinks just bought it World Enterprise community. She is often using her zip very convincingly in her Instagram stories and talking about how great it's, and I was like,
Doree: Interesting.
Kate: Is this the little machine that can do it all or is this just another thing that I will use once and then feel too lazy to use?
Doree: Oh my God.
Kate: Remains to be seen. But you know what they have that is really cool that I have never seen before.
Doree: What
Kate: Is, they have an app that goes with it and you can sink the zip up so that when you start a video, the zip will go along. The video will teach you how to do one of their techniques and the zip will go along with the video. It'll be like, you're feeling going to feel a short buzz. And then your machine is like, the app is really handy. I've never seen that before with a skincare device. And I find the app to be very good. The videos are very clear, and I think it's really cool that your little machine can sync to what you're watching and do it along with it. Yeah. I was like, oh, isn't this innovative? Yeah. But Caroline was using it. She was talking about it for zits, not just for reducing fine lines and wrinkles or whatever the fuck the reason is that I'm doing it, but yeah. And I was like, wow, this is intriguing. This is intriguing. So yeah, I've been zipping, not every night, not all the time, but I have been adding in a little zip to my nighttime skincare routine.
Doree: Little zip. Zip in. Zip in your step.
Kate: What? Oh, wow. Okay.
Doree: I dont know,
Kate: I'm the one who makes poor word play choices.
Doree: It's bad. It's bad, Kate. It's bad. I agree. Agree.
Kate: A little zip in my stip.
Doree: Oh,
Kate: Like a zip. Zip. You were trying like a pep in your step. I see where you were.
Doree: Yeah, that's what I was going for.
Kate: Yeah. I see the journey and I support it.
Doree: Oh, you do?
Kate: I do. I see what was happening. Yeah, that's just, it's like, again, will it end up in the graveyard of skincare tools that I try? Or will it be a keeper? I don't know. It's one of those, your mileage may vary things. I guess
Doree: It is a real, your mileage may vary thing.
Kate: A favorite, favorite phrase of yours? I think,
Doree: Well, I do think it's so applicable in so many cases, in part because on the internet, I feel like oftentimes people present their personal experiences as universal. So I always feel like I need to qualify things by being like, well, your mileage may vary. This is what happened to me. Or this is how this, I recently used it because someone was asking me how a brand of shoes fit. And I said, in my experience, they run small, but also I have never found a pair that were comfortable. Every pair of shoes of this brand that I've bought, I have returned or sold.
Kate: I almost, I know the brand of shoe you're talking about, and I find them extremely uncomfortable.
Doree: Okay. So your mileage is the same as my mileage.
Kate: I have tried a few pairs,
Doree: right?
Kate: Yeah. Every time.
Doree: This is a blind item, everybody.
Kate: It's a blind. We are the DUIs of uncomfortable shoes. Doree, speaking of, I have breaking shoe news that maybe no one will care about. I have started. Okay. So
Doree: Have you started a shoe blog?
Kate: I've started a shoe blog. I have started researching, for lack of a better word, barefoot shoes, meaning zero drop shoes. So essentially shoes that are the opposite of the hoggas that I wear now because
Doree: Well, okay, go on.
Kate: Okay. So the reason being, because I have been reading a lot about plantar fasciitis, which I have in my left foot, and how sneakers can be restrictive, and also how you need to have a larger toe box, which is a favorite thing of yours. And I was like, maybe I should try a shoe that allows my foot to spread out a bit more than I have allowed it, and also allows me to increase the range of motion. So now I've been looking at all these, now I've realized I've opened Pandora's box on a subculture I did not know existed, which is the barefoot shoe world, which people are very into barefoot shoes. And I feel like it crosses over a little bit into the tech bros who want to live forever. Culture. I feel like it's the same. It's the same kind of, there's an overlap. There's an overlap. Like the Huberman Lab podcast fans. I think there's a lot of people who also like barefoot shoes and a barefoot shoe.
Doree: Oh, that's so interesting.
Kate: It's not the kind of shoe that has little toe holes that you put your toes into. It's essentially like they're wide and thin. And so the idea is that you are close to barefoot.
Doree: So this is interesting to me partly because, well, I ended up selling my hokas because as part of my, I've been wearing the wrong size shoe for a long time crusade, I realized they were too small. But also I had been seeing some stuff about wearing sneakers that have too thick of a sole, too much cushioning. Too much cushioning as not being great for you, and that it's good to walk around barefoot and all these things. And so I went back to just wearing when I needed to get a new pair of sneakers, because I also realized that my other pair were too small. I got on clouds because on clouds are not as cushioned. You can actually feel the ground through your shoes with on clouds. And I feel like those are just better for me.
Kate: Nice. Isn't that interesting?
Doree: So I don't know. But also, I haven't really gone running in a long time, so I'm curious what I would want to wear running.
Kate: I don't know. Oh my gosh. I mean, you can dip a toe into this world of barefoot shoe running. I'm looking at them right now.
Doree: I mean, that seems like a lot.
Kate: I'm not running. I mean, I can't, but I'd like to walk. But even just being on my feet a lot, I wear sneakers. And the philosophy I was kind of reading was like, these cushiony shoes are not allowing one, your toes are trapped, so they're not able to flatten out and stretch. Yeah.
Doree: There's also, there's a whole world of TikTok, podiatrists and foot doctors. Foot surgeons who do not like hokas. They're very anti Hoka.
Kate: That's so interesting. The hokas are so freaking comfortable.
Doree: I know. Exactly. But they're like, am ultimately I supposed to do these? These are not going to be good for your feet. Now, disclaimer, I am not a doctor. I am just repeating what I hear. I have not done these studies. I've not examined anyone's feet, but it did make me think like, oh, that's interesting.
Kate: And as do, he says, your mileage may vary.
Doree: And look, there's always people in the comments being like, I have plantar fascitis and I love my hoku. You know what I mean? There's just,
Kate: of course.
Doree: So who knows in conclusion? Who knows?
Kate: Who knows. But interesting study that we've each done on our own feet.
Doree: Well, I don't think I've discussed my whole, I've been wearing the wrong size shoe thing on this podcast.
Kate: You had a real awakening.
Doree: I did. I realized I had been wearing the wrong size shoe my whole life.
Kate: What was the moment where you were like, oh.
Doree: So it all started actually maybe a year ago when I bought a pair of Nike's, the high top dunks, and they didn't have my exact size. So I ordered a half size smaller and a half size bigger. And I was like, maybe one of these will work. And when I tried them on, my initial take was, oh my gosh, these half size bigger ones are enormous. They're way too big. And I put on the half size smaller ones, and I was like, Ooh, these feel comfy. And then I asked my husband, because he is a sneakerhead, I said, how do these feel to you? And he felt them. And he was like, those are way too small. What are you doing? Oh. And I was like, they are? And he was like, yes, your toe is at the top of the sneaker.
Kate: Oh, No.
Doree: And I was like, that's not how they're supposed to fit.
Kate: Wait a second.
Doree: And he was like, no. And then I put the other ones back on and I asked him, I was like, well, what about these? And he's like, yeah, these actually fit you. And I was like, oh. There was way more length toe space than I ever had. And so I was like, huh, that's weird. And then I realized that my late in life realization that I've narrow feet, not wide feet, has been making me wear the wrong size shoe because my heel is narrow. So I would always buy shoes that were a little too small because those were the ones that my heel didn't come up in.
Kate: So were your feet just in pain and all these different shoes somewhere?
Doree: I think they were just cramped all the time. I mean, I have permanent corns on two of my toes because I always, and also I have weird toes, but the point is that I think I was always wearing the wrong size shoe. So I'm in the process now of getting the correct size shoes, which is a process.
Kate: And what size shoe are you? What is your true size?
Doree: So I think in sneakers, I'm a 10 and a half.
Kate: Oh, wow.
Doree: Yeah. But in shoes, I'm a 10.
Kate: I mean, that makes sense. I wear 12 in sneakers,
Doree: But my tennis shoes are an 11 because they run a little small and my feet expand when I'm playing, but I'm not that tall. So I think I proportionally have very large feet. I mean, I'm taller than the average woman, but not, it feels like you have the proportional size foot for your height, whereas mine is much larger.
Kate: Sure.
Doree: I don't know. It's weird. Bodies are weird. I also think my feet grew after I was pregnant.
Kate: Well, and feet grow from running and physical. And also, I also think, and again, now I'm just speaking out of my ass, when you give feet space, they're going to take it. Right? They're going to expand if you give them a little bit more room.
Doree: Oh, that's interesting how in China, they would bind feet and so they never grew.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: So I was basically binding my feet is what you're saying
Kate: In hokas,
Doree: In Hoka, Well, I remember getting a pair of Rothy slip ons and thinking I got my correct size because my heel didn't come up. And then one of them got a hole where the big toe goes because they were too small.
Kate: Oh, God. And they were pressing on the spot.
Doree: Yes, I know. Okay. I know now it wasn't a big hole, but it was a little like you could see the fabric was fraying a little bit.
Kate: Right. You poor little toes Doree.
Doree: I know, right?
Kate: I mean, feet are kind of like the final frontier of things I think about. I do take for granted just that I can stomp around. I haven't ever really taken good care of them. And yeah, I'm trying to be a little more kind to those suckers.
Doree: Yeah. Well, Kate, this conversation has pretty much nothing to do with the conversation we had with our guest today, but that's okay.
Kate: I feel like that's fine because both are, and quite frankly, our conversation with our guest is fascinating, so I'm excited to share it. It is. We are talking to author, writer Sarah Shepherd, who Yes, you're right. Wrote the Pretty Little Liars series amongst many, many other books. Talk about prolific,
Doree: Talk about prolific.
Kate: Sarah is the number one New York Times bestselling author of the Pretty Little Liar series, the Lion Game series, the Heiresses, the Elias, the Perfectionist Series and Reputation. She's also the author of the Penny Draws series for middle grade readers. And her latest book, nowhere Like Home is out now. And look, we got to talk to a legend. What more can we say?
Doree: Literally nothing. There's nothing more to say.
Kate: So we'll take a break and we'll come back and bring you Sarah. Before we do, just a friendly note that you can find everything you ever wanted to know about us or the show on Forever35podcast.com. You can also find us on Instagram @Forever35podcast. We have a Patreon community at patreon.com/forever35. fave prods mentioned on the show can be found at Shopmy.us/forever35. We have a newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And if you want to reach us, please leave us a voicemail or send us a text message at (781) 591-0390. You can always email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. Many people have written in to tell me that I have to deal with my planter warts, talk about feet. People have been like, these are not these warts. Don't mess around. You need to deal with them now, which is good to hear. So thank you.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: All right. We'll be right back with Sarah.
Doree: We'll be right back.
Kate: Our guest today, what do we even say? Doree?
Doree: An icon.
Kate: Say an icon. A legend has listened to this podcast, which just blows our minds. We have Sarah Shepherd today on the pod ascribe of books that transcend culture. I mean, truly, if you've heard the letters PLL, then you know what I'm talking about. But you've written so many books beyond just pretty little liars. Sarah, your list of work is so expansive and huge and you just had a new book come out, and we're so excited to talk to you. So thanks for coming on the pod.
Sara: I'm so excited, so excited. And thank you for the kind words.
Kate: Anytime
Sara: Calling me a scribe, calling me a scribe. I love it.
Kate: It's just me searching for synonyms in my brain and
Sara: I love it.
Kate: Well, you have heard Forever35 before, so you might know that we always start off guest interviews asking about a self-care practice that resonates for our guests. So do you have a self-care practice? That is your thing?
Sara: My self-care practice. I mean, I love beauty products. I love hair care. I mean, I don't know how to do my hair. I'm a big fan of taking baths. I'm a big bath person, but my bath routine is strange because I'm a writer. I don't like taking them in the morning and I don't like taking them at night. I am a middle of the day taking a bath person.
Doree: Oh, interesting
Sara: It's like my recharge. Yes. This is my, I mean, I often, I'm a runner too. I would say that's my other self-care is I like to run. I go out into the cold. Some people have the cold plunge or whatever, which I would never do. But then I go and I take a bath in the middle of the day and it seems to be something I do every day. But it is very, I kind of realized this the other day. I'm like, this is so weird that I'm doing this at noon, but maybe not. So that is top of the list at the moment.
Doree: Is that, that just makes me wonder, what does your day look like?
Kate: Yeah,
Sara: My day is, I mean, it's probably a lot of people's day. I try to be sort of nine to five because of having, I have two kids and I have to get them to school, and then they come home from school. And once they're home from school, it's hard to accomplish anything. So I pretty much structure it with from eight until about three when I have to get one from middle school, because our school district does not have buses. We have to, they either walk or you have to pick them up pretty much. Then I'm done. So otherwise I'm trying to write or I will go running, or I'll walk my dogs and then I'll take that bath. That is pretty much my day.
Kate: I actually really like this middle of the day moment because I feel like I personally have been obsessed with morning routines and nighttime routines as the two pillars of when you're allowed to practice some sort of self-care thing. But actually it's really just thinking of that middle of the day something. I mean, it breaks up the day, but also just this idea that you can really take care of yourself outside of whatever morning or evening routine is being perpetuated on social media.
Sara: And I've done it this way for so long that it just feels really foreign to me to do that kind of activity or that sort of bath routine, at least in the morning or at night. It just wouldn't feel right. But I'm also, I am not really a morning person, and I'm not really a night person either, so it's just a day person. So yeah, it does. It's a nice break. I definitely kind of need it. And then I will read watch, just while my books are mangled, because I read them all when I'm in the tub.
Kate: I was going to say, do you read in the bath? Are you a bath reader?
Sara: I do.
Kate: Okay. Yeah.
Sara: I get a lot of good reading done in the tub, but all of my books are a mess. But it's just nice. And then I make it pretty hot. But yeah. And I don't do anything too special. I sometimes put bath salt in, but I don't have a brand that I like. Or sometimes I'll just not put anything in. I'll just be warm and just cozy.
Kate: You're a watery water plunger. Whatcha Reading?
Sara: I'm a water plunger.
Doree: What are you reading right now?
Sara: I'm reading Rebecca S's new novel. She has a book coming out, I almost want to say it's the end of this month called Expiration Dates. And I am lucky enough to be her moderator.
Doree: Oh, fun.
Sara: In Harrisburg. She's coming kind of close to me. That is the tub book. It's getting destroyed.
Doree: Nice.
Sara: Yeah.
Kate: I love the idea of a tub book. My daughter took a bath the other night and she had two books that I found on the bathroom floor and one was just drenched. It was just, I didn't even know what to do, but it's such kind of a sign of love.
Sara: I guaranteed drop a book in the tub at least once in the reading period, at least once.
Kate: With your new book, Nowhere Like Home. Do you remember what the first nugget of an idea was? Or did that idea come to you fully formed?
Sara: Oh God.
Kate: What piqued your interest?
Sara: So it was two things. So the book is about this community of moms who are helping each other and raising their children together. And it all sounds great, but it's not that great. But the idea of that came, I think it was around, it was definitely the pandemic. And my best friend, I grew up in Philly. My best friend still lives in Philly. She has kids around my kid's age. And we were all stuck in our houses, and we just thought, wouldn't it be nice if we just moved into a farmhouse together or something just raised our kids and this was our pod. And it didn't happen sadly. But I kept thinking about that idea. And more than that, ours was not really motivated by leaving our husbands or anything like that. But the idea of women who didn't feel happy in their situation and would rather live with friends or rather live with women or other moms who got it because it's lonely often. Not all the time, but when you first have a baby or when you're raising kids, it can be really lonely and it's nice to have people around. So it sort of came from that. And I kind of thought, well, what would that kind of community look like? And what if you went into that community and the very last person on earth that you wanted to be part of, that community is part of that community and terrible thing, and you're kind of stuck there. So it kind of came from that. And the setting it is set in Tucson, Arizona, which I lived there for a little while, but it's not just in Tucson. It's out in the desert in Tucson.
Doree: Tucson. And what about the idea of Mom Unes? Because what I really appreciated about your book is the way you introduce this sinisterness to this concept that on the face of it seems great women supporting other women and mom supporting moms and raising your kids in a village. But as you write in the book, it kind of quickly becomes clear that something is off here. So I'm wondering where the fascination with the idea of the mom came from. And I guess I'm also wondering, what do you think about Mom?
Sara: Yeah, I mean, it was a fine line because I didn't want to say that I thought this was a terrible concept. I mean, I think maybe it could work if you have the right mix of people. And once I started thinking about it, I just did a lot of reading about it, watched a couple of YouTube videos about, because these communities, now, I didn't find any moms, but I found a lot of intentional communities and their videos and their philosophies and whatever, and on the website, they all look great. And then you kind of read Reddit. You kind of get interesting perspectives on why they sometimes work and why they sometimes don't work. But the thing that kept staying with me was a lot of people come to these places to live kind of thinking that they're going into this utopia situation and everything is going to be fixed for them. And you don't actually deal with your problem. People are coming in and not having dealt with their problems and not getting the mental health support. And that support is not built into most of these communities and the community that I created. It's not built in there either. It's more the philosophy
Kate: There very much not.
Sara: No, It's like, it's like, no, no, just don't talk about your past. It's right. You're just regrowing. And it's kind of like, that was the thing that I really found interesting from people who had gone to these places or had lived there, had even had families there was that if you had some issues in your past or if you had some sort of mental health crisis or anything like that, this is maybe not the right place to work through that because there's not a therapist on hand to help you. And I think the women in this book are, a lot of them are running from something or looking for some kind of escape, but have some sort of trauma in their past. And the main character is no exception.
Kate: I thought it was just so interesting because I remember I have two kids, and I remember, especially in the early days, wanting to escape, right? You're like, what the hell have I done that kind of wanting to get to get out or get away? Which I feel like you're capturing in the book. Is that something that you experienced as a parent? Is it something that you can relate to or that you were thinking about when you were writing?
Sara: Oh my God, yes. Not so much anymore. So my kids are nine and 12, and they're in a good age. They're easy. You can have real conversations with them. You can leave them alone for a little bit. They can microwave their own food. But that baby phase, oh my gosh. I just wanted, yeah, especially my first son. I felt very alone with my first son and was very, I just didn't know what I was doing. And I didn't live close to my mom, and she would come out and visit a lot. And then my husband's, it just wasn't the same. But we didn't have a lot of support and I didn't feel like I had a lot of support. And it just was so, I obviously loved having the baby. I loved being with him. I loved taking care of him, but I also was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I just wanted to run away. I was kind of like, I can't believe I changed my life so drastically. What did I do? Because before that, yeah, you don't realize how easy, how your time is, your own, how you can step away. And
Doree: I feel like every new mom, myself included, has been like, why did no one tell me? And then all everyone's like, we tried, but there's like, there's no way you can fully understand until you've done it.
Sara: Yeah, It's so true. It's so true. And writing it, it was pretty easy to go right back to that. And the main character, Lena travels with her baby because she's still nursing him and she brings him, she doesn't want to leave him, but she feels like she's going to get some help. She feels like she's going to be able to at least have people around that will support her or just get it people who understand. And I think that's what my friend and I were talking about with our original idea of, oh, we could just live in a farmhouse. It's just like, you want to be around people who just
Doree: Get you Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Sara: Who just kind of know who are in it with you. And maybe I should have done more mom groups when he was a baby, but it also was, I was doing so much writing. I had so many books coming out at that time. It was like the height of Pretty Little Liars. The show had just come on. So it was just like I was pulled in a lot of directions. So it was a hard time, but it was, yes, it took me right back to that for sure.
Kate: That's a hard time. It's interesting too, writing about motherhood from in a suspenseful way, because at times it is a horror story. It is,
Sara: oh my God.
Kate: For many people. So it's interesting, not reading it from this romanticized perspective. I enjoy it in a story that is so suspenseful and scary.
Sara: Yeah, no, I agree. And it is funny, the first draft, I think the baby was way too calm and sweet, and my editor was sort of like, this is not realistic. This is the best baby ever. This is an easy escape for her. And it was.
Doree: That's so funny.
Sara: So it was a very good edit on her point.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back. Can you talk about the new series that you're working on?
Sara: Younger for the younger kids?
Doree: Didnt you say you had a new middle grade series. Am I making this up?
Sara: I do. No, no. It's a middle grade series. Lemme lemme see if I have a copy. So it's called Penny Draws.
Doree: Oh Yeah. I've seen this on your Instagram
Sara: And for about second to fifth graders. And it's kind of like Diary of a Wimpy Kid. It has a lot of drawings in it. I dunno if you can say it. It has just little drawings and has texts. But basically it's about a girl who worries about everything. Yes. Me, it's kind of normal. It's a funny school story. There are three out right now, but it came out of when we were all kind of shut down and both of my kids were so anxious about everything. And once the schools opened back up and we started to go out into the world again, it just seemed like all these interesting anxieties popped up for both of them. Every parent I talked to, it seemed like their children were going through something too. But it seemed like none of the kids really talked to each other about things that they were worried about. So they just all worried in private and just thought everybody else was just floating through life and doing fine and kind of getting it. And so it just tries to sort of normalize. It's okay to be worried about stuff. A lot of people are anxious, but it deals with friendship and how to, what makes a good friend, how to confront your friends, how to face fears, stuff like that. But it's mostly just silly school stuff. It's like the silly side of me. I have this very dark side, and then I have this other side that's light and fun and
Doree: Well, It's nice to be able to kind of explore both sides. Yeah,
Sara: It's nice. Yeah, it's very therapeutic. And it's also really fun to do the art for it, because
Kate: that's so cool. I didn't know that you did that.
Sara: I know. I'm a doodler, and I was surprised when my editor accepted the proposal with me as the artist.
Doree: That's really cool.
Sara: I was like, it's very cool. It's a lot of work. It's very different than just writing, because this whole week, I don't know if I've done any writing. I've just done drawing. I've just done drawing after drawing.
Doree: Oh, wow.
Sara: But it's fun because I get to listen to music. I get to do things that I don't get to do when I'm writing because I can't have any outside input. Otherwise, I don't know. I'll lose focus and get nothing done. But I can listen to stuff and I can watch shows, and I can listen to podcasts and while I'm drawing, so that's nice.
Doree: Very cool.
Kate: Have you ever experienced burnout? Has that ever been a part of your journey as a writer or person?
Sara: Yeah. During the pandemic, I had a really hard time, time just doing anything. I feel like
Kate: I don't think you're alone with that.
Sara: No, I really didn't. If I am anxious and I have had a very anxious year where if I didn't have the penny books to work on and I have to, there's a deadline for them. I feel like I haven't had a lot. I haven't come up with a lot this year. My parents have both had health issues and just if I am anxious, I don't get a lot done. So that feels a little bit like burnout for me when I just, I'm too many other things are going on that I have to be pretty relaxed and in a pretty good head space to write and to work on new ideas. I mean, as far as burnout for other reasons, I mean, no. And I think it's probably because I jump around in genres. I mean, I wrote for ya, and then I write for adult, and then I do this middle grade thing, and then I've done some scripted podcast stuff that keeps it interesting. I think if I were just writing one Ya novel after another, I would probably feel pretty burnt out. That would be hard. But I think the variety of it has kept it interesting. Yeah,
Kate: That makes a lot of sense. Well, yeah, it does actually. That's a smart, it's like you keep it spicy.
Sara: Yeah, totally.
Kate: You keep it interesting.
Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, and even if it's, yeah, I mean, I've done a lot of fun things that I dunno if anybody has ever heard of, but it doesn't matter.
Kate: Yeah, it doesn't. Right. It doesn't matter. So much of that is also satisfying for you whether or not people have heard of it or not.
Sara: Right. I feel like I did all these strange little projects during the pandemic that had nothing to do with books. I mean, they were a lot of podcasts. I wrote all these romcom podcasts. I wrote some sort of audible audio series. I don't even know what happened with that.
Doree: You're like, whoa, I forgot about all these things.
Kate: I'm pro. I'm writing a ton,
Sara: All such a blur. I was talking to somebody the other day about teaching when the shutdown happened and having to do school at home. And she was like, so how did you write during that time? And I could not remember writing, but I also couldn't remember the school teaching. And I think I completely just blocked it out.
Kate: That's so funny. Yeah. I mean that seems like a pretty normal trauma response. Honestly, I feel the same way where I'm like, there's a big blank spot in those early covid months.
Sara: Yeah. And the first couple that next fall where it was school from home, but it was like they were taking it more seriously. I mean, I kind of remember setting up the rooms. This is where your desk is going to go, and this is where your desk, having these great intentions and making the rooms look really great. And within two weeks, not even. Who knows where they were doing school and the one I wasn't even paying attention to. But yeah, and I'm like, I don't remember writing at all. Did I write? Probably maybe not. And I don't know. I don't think I was doing the bath routine then. Definitely not.
Kate: No.
Sara: I should have been doing that. That definitely started. That definitely started much later. Or they calm down.
Kate: You might know. I mean, I'm assuming, but we always like to ask people at the end of our interviews if they have any skincare, product recommendations, beauty products. They love a skincare routine they want to share. So I'm posing this to you, Sarah.
Sara: Okay.
Kate: Are you a skincare person? Do you have any products you love that you want to tell our audience about? Or do you keep it super simple?
Sara: I keep it super. I am pretty simple. I have really sensitive skin for years. I mean, my skin is really red, so I usually use just the gentlest kind of cleanser that I can. I have tried anti red masks before and I don't feel like they particularly work for me, but I just use Ravi or what's the other one? I dunno. There's some sort of, I actually think it's the generic version of Cetaphil.
Kate: Oh, I love a generic,
Sara: just sort of the, yeah, just, and then I just often just use coconut oil, just like a coconut oil, like moisturizer. Yeah. But for makeup, I do use sort of that green, the green tinted sort of the pre thing that you put on before foundation
Doree: primer
Sara: to kind of primer. I know you mean primer.
Kate: Yes.
Sara: Yeah, the primer. And I will say that that is my favorite thing. And I remember years ago when I was a teenager and loved my mom's makeup. She had Estee Lauder skincare and she had the green tinted, but it was not primer. It was really cakey and whatever. But she was always like, this green tinted thing will work. And I was always like, green, I'm not putting that on my face. And now I love it. And I am not sure the brand that I use, it's not even very expensive. I probably got it off of Amazon, but I feel like any of those green tinted primers, really, I think they really do work. If you have red skin, if you're flush for whatever reason, and I don't have rosacea. I don't know what it is. I think it's just my particular type of skin just gets really, I get really red. We are working through adolescent skincare.
Doree: Oh, yes.
Sara: So that is interesting. We have not hit on anything great. I mean, we have not tried the proactive, anything like that. My son is kind of going through the, I don't know, Kate, if you're into this with your, well, you have girls, so they probably are more into skincare than boys are.
Doree: Do you have two?
Kate: Yeah, they are. My 13-year-old is
Sara: I have two boys. Yeah. Yeah. I have two boys and they are not that interested, but we are trying to push the skincare and the acne medication,
Kate: Deodorant and all
Sara: The deodorant and the pimple patches. We're trying all kinds of different patches
Kate: Mean I vividly remember not showering much in sixth grade for sure. Maybe not even in seventh. So I empathized with middle schoolers, rejected showering, if I remember
Sara: Really. I did that. I was more like in, yeah,
Doree: As a statement, Kate.
Sara: I know I was around that age.
Kate: I wasn't protesting. I just remember it was felt like work. And my mom being like, you've got to bathe. I must have just smelled.
Doree: That's very funny.
Sara: It happens all of a sudden. It's very, and all of a sudden, yeah, it's all your kid smells fine. And then the next day you're like, oh, what happened?
Kate: All of a sudden they have body hair and it's like, oh my God, this is happening.
Sara: I know my son had a, I mean, he's not going to listen to this. It doesn't matter. He had a doctor's appointment today. It was a well child visit, and I looked, he had to put a gown on him. I was like, oh my gosh. He's like an adult. But the doctor kind of was checking him out and she was like, you need to brush your teeth better.
Doree: Oh, wow.
Kate: Wow.
Sara: I was like, oh no. Yeah. So I was like, well, I hope you heard that because I have been telling you this,
Doree: but when you say it, it doesn't.
Sara: It goes in one ear there. He probably brushes it once and done. But yeah, it was like, whoa. That doesn't make you feel great as a parent. You're like, oh,
Kate: I know nothing.
Sara: I mean, there are so many moments in the day where you feel like you've failed, but we're trying.
Kate: Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. It's such a thrill to get to talk to you. For our listeners, who would like to find out more about your work or just to follow along with you, where can we find you?
Sara: You can find me on Instagram @SarahCShepherd. And that is the same with TikTok. TikTok is funny. I'm on Twitter, or the new name. The Twitter has, which is X,
Kate: Which is X,
Sara: Which is X. I don't tweet very much, but that is Sarah books.
Doree: Great. Well, thanks again. This was really fun.
Sara: Oh, this was really fun. Thank you so much.
Kate: Well, I was really glad to talk to Sarah, and like I said, my daughter for a moment thought I was cool because I had a cool guest on the show.
Doree: I do. I love that. I feel like there have been a couple other guests that your kids were like
Kate: Heidi Gardner from Saturday Night Live. They love Nicole Byer. There's a few people. There's people that are a part of their cultural awareness that thrills them. And then I'll be like, oh, we once interviewed Madeline Albright, and they're like, crickets.
Doree: Right.
Kate: Okay, well you know what? One day you'll appreciate my work.
Doree: Kate that does kind of dovetail with your intention.
Kate: God, Patience with my kids, myself, other parents' life. That was my intention last week because we had this very intense volunteering experience happening at one of my kids' schools. It is over. I tried my best to be patient. I think I was patient with my kid for the most part. I did get upset because she spilled water everywhere and I kind of had a not great parenting grumpy moment. But yeah, it's like I have to constantly be reminding myself, we're all just doing the best we can. We're all just doing the best we can. We're all tired, we're all stressed. Just say that over and over and over again to myself.
Doree: Yep.
Kate: This week.
Doree: Yeah. What's going on this week?
Kate: Well, I am trying to get serious about this planner fasciitis. It's not going away and I'm kind of not doing enough for it. So I have put my little peanut shaped foot roller by my bed and I'm trying to roll my foot out every morning and night. And also whenever I remember in between. So it's just foot rolling for me this week. I just need to keep rolling out the bottom, my whole foot. I got to get this better. It's painful and annoying.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: How about you? How was your intention of cleaning momentum and keeping it going?
Doree: Well, it's going and I've given away a lot of Matt's old clothes, but there's still some that are sitting in my office in bags, so I need to just get them out of my house
Kate: Almost there.
Doree: Yes. And I will say we have also kept, the dining and living room area has been cleaner. We've been keeping it cleaner, so that also feels good. So I dunno. So this week, I don't think I've talked about this that much, but I have a slight case of tennis elbow that you get from playing tennis, and I'm starting physical therapy this week.
Kate: Oh, wow.
Doree: I know. Exciting.
Kate: Are you still able to play tennis through the tennis elbow? Elbow, or do you have to stop?
Doree: I asked my doctor the same thing and he said, I can keep playing.
Kate: Oh, good.
Doree: Which I was like, okay. Yeah. So we'll see how that goes. I'm excited though. So my intention is to get better. I know it's not going to happen in a week. He said six to 12 months.
Kate: Oh boy.
Doree: And then if you think you have tennis elbow, I do not suggest Googling it because there's a lot of people who are like, tennis elbow is forever.
Kate: Oh, no.
Doree: Yeah, so I think I caught it pretty early, which is good. The doctor said nothing looked damaged, but hopefully the PT will help, which good lesson never hurts to see the doctor if you're in pain.
Kate: No. Yes, do it.
Doree: So there we go. All right. Well, on that note, Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thank you all so much for listening.
Kate: Bye.