Episode 258: Name Yourself A Badass with Bozoma Saint John
Kate and Doree recap their Forever35 Live show and the behind-the-scenes happenings that occurred both on and off camera. Then, they invite author, entrepreneur and general badass Bozoma Saint John on the podcast to talk about the important choice to prioritize sleep, unabashedly pursuing a career and her ambition while raising a child as a widow, and discovering the tapestry of her memories while writing her memoir The Urgent Life.
Photo Credit: Lelanie Foster
Mentioned in this Episode
The Urgent Life: My Story of Love, Loss, and Survival by Bozoma Saint John
Connect with Bozoma
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever 35, A podcast About the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts.
Doree: No. But we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: And hey, you can visit our website Forever 35 podcast for links to everything we mentioned on an episode. You can follow us on Instagram at Forever 35 podcast and join them forever 35 Facebook group or the password to serums.
Doree: You can shop our favorite products@shopmy.us/forever35 and sign up for the newsletter at Forever 35 podcast.com/newsletter. You can also call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at forever 35 podcast gmail.com.
Kate: I don't know why that came out, but hi, I just want to sing you a little tune.
Doree: Hi.
Kate: Hi, Doree. You know what? I do know what's going on. I am day one of my menstrual cycle and just really feeling it today. Headache, tired, grumpy, just all the things. So I'm not quite as present as I'd like to be. And this also leads me to think man in a matriarchy, people who get their menstrual cycles would just, we just have that time off to rest.
Doree: Yeah. Wouldn't that be nice?
Kate: I was talking to my kind of talking without getting into too much detail about my kids' lives. We've been talking more about menstruation and there was this part of me that was really sad where I just had to be like, oh yeah, you get your period and you just have to fucking go to school and live your life. Like, oh yeah, we don't accommodate for this nightmarish can be nightmarish thing that many people go through where you are physically ill. Oh God. Anyway. Oh, a matriarchy. What would that be? What would that be like? Wouldn't that be a treat? But here we are in reality. Boy, I'm starting this off really negatively. I did not intend to. I was so excited to just check in about our live show that we did. It was so much fun.
Doree: Oh, it was so much fun. I had a blast.
Kate: I had a blast too. I think we both just want to say thank you to everyone who joined us. It was the first time we've ever really done anything like this before and it was so much fun. I was essentially euphoric and exhausted for 24 hours after.
Doree: I love that.
Kate: Did it not impact you physically in the same way as me, Doree.
Doree: I mean, I was really on a high, I think I texted you after and said as much.
Kate: You were like it was amazing and I'm exhausted. And I was like, yes.
Doree: Yeah. Oh yeah. I was so tired. It really took a lot out of me. Yes. In the ways that like I wasn't expecting.
Kate: Yeah it was like going to a party
Doree: Yeah, totally. Well, right, because it was, well, it's funny because it's not like we were doing anything that different than what we do when we record a podcast, but it was a little longer than our typical podcast because we did the main show for an hour, and then the after party was half an hour and we were in conversation the whole time, which we are on the podcast, but not quite in the same way because even on the mini apps we're reading people's emails and voicemails or, you know what I mean? It was just different.
Kate: Well, Also we were live in front of a, and we
Doree: Were live, so we were also live.
Kate: We couldn't stop or take a break or burp on mean. We could burp. This would be a supportive crowd for burping, but it's like if I wanted to take a sip of water or refill a water bottle, that's not happening. We are on.
Doree: And I even had a technical snafu that everyone just rolled with, which was great,
Kate: Which Was wild because I will say historically, I tend to be the one with the tech issues of the pod. It was shocking to me that in a live show, you were the one who had a tech issue.
Doree: I think it all started when I had this freak accident with my mic a few days ago or a week ago
Kate: I was there. I witnessed it.
Doree: And then since then, things have just not been the same. So
Kate: People were so supportive. They were like, just keep going. Have fun. DOn't worry Doree.
Doree: Oh, look, I was back in a minute.
Kate: Yeah, it was
Doree: Great. But yeah, it was really fun. It was so great to see how many people came and unreal. It made me feel like, Hey, we could do this again.
Kate: Yeah, I would love to do it again. It was so much fun. I truly had a blast. I was giddy. And it just was such a wonderful reminder of how incredible this podcast community is, and it was so much fun. So yeah, I think we would like to do it again for sure.
Doree: It was really cool. And during the show we debuted some new merch, which is available now, A really cute reframe, the narrative hooded sweatshirt that I wore all weekend. Some new mugs, a new tote.
Kate: The free mugger mug is here. <laugh>,
Doree: The horse girl mug is here. There was also a very cool limited edition live show t-shirt that if you didn't get already, I'm sorry but it's gone
Kate: <laugh>. Sorry. But maybe it'll be back for our next live show.
Doree: Be back. Yeah. Who knows.
Kate: You know what, it's, it's interesting. Dora, you mentioned that you wore that sweatshirt all weekend, because I know we talk about your little getaway generally. So you went on a getaway with some friends and you sent me a text on, I believe Saturday morning and you said, I just woke up and it was nine 15 in the morning, which is in terms of our friendship, I think the latest I've ever seen You wake up.
Doree: It was pretty late.
Kate: Did it feel good? Did you get a good chunk of uninterrupted sleep?
Doree: Yes. Although I was still kind of coughing so that
Kate: You've been sick
Doree: And I was fine, but then my cough would come up at night when that happens.
Kate: Yes. Were you think it's settled in and then it's like, yeah,
Doree: Yeah, yeah. So that was frustrating. But what was also nice about being away was that I did sleep late and then I laid in bed for another, oh, I don't know, 40 minutes or something. I felt no pressure. <laugh> to get out of bed, which was really nice.
Kate: Doree. Yeah, that must have felt good.
Doree: It felt really good. I'm not going to lie. It felt really
Kate: Good for you. Well, that's interesting. Our guest today talks about sleep and their sleep boundaries. And I weirdly had been just thinking the same thing this morning about setting myself up for success with rest and letting myself, I think in my brain I've been like, I should really be getting up at 6:00 AM and doing some yoga before my kids get up for school. But I've been having a hard time waking up. I sleep till seven every morning. And this morning I was like, why am I, I'm not meant to exercise at 6:00 AM I'm meant my body is telling me it wants to be asleep. Why would I?
Doree: Wow. Oh, okay.
Kate: Why would I ignore it? But
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: I mean, this just was a revelation I literally just had. And then we talked to our guest today, Bozoma St. John, and I mean, she has such amazing advice about sleep boundaries that I found very inspiring. I'm very excited for y'all to hear our conversation with her. But so having that moment today, thinking about you this weekend, and then her talking about how she sets a boundary and she gets eight to nine hours of sleep a night and she works intense corporate high level jobs. And I was like,
Doree: But sleep is her top priority.
Kate: Yes. Which really it should be. We should be applauding the people who make room for sleep and not the people who are like, I only got four hours. I mean, look, if that's you, that's fine. But you know what I mean? There's kind of this culture where sleep is not valued.
Doree: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's this capitalist work hard at all costs productivity culture, but frankly does seem to be on its way out a little bit. I feel like there's more awareness now of that hustle and grind culture. And especially it seems to me a lot of Gen Z especially is pushing back against that. And part of that is the whole, well, I only need to sleep four hours a night thing, which used to be a badge of honor and now is sort of like, Ooh, what? What's wrong with you? Yeah. You know what I mean?
Kate: What's Going on?
Doree: Some something must, and Bozoma actually says this, if you're only sleeping four hours a night, you might want to talk to a doctor. That's not enough sleep. So I don't know, that's just been an interesting shift I think.
Kate: Well, I'm here for it.
Doree: Me too.
Kate: I Support this shift because me too, even I am not getting enough sleep and I can feel it so deeply and I don't know. I just need to, why would I prioritize? Well, I know why because of diet culture, but why would I prioritize fitness over sleep? I know my answer already, but you know what I mean? That's what I was doing. Yeah. And mentally I was kind of doing that. So I'm, I'm calling myself in here. Okay. I'm not going to be doing that. Okay. I'm not into that for me right now. Maybe when the summertime and my body inherently gets up at 6:00 AM but right now my body is like, girl, it's fucking freezing out and dark and gray. Stay in bed. Well, should we get to our interview?
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Yes. Okay. This is such a good one. Here. We've got Bozoma St. John. She is a Hall of Fame inducted marketing executive, and we're talking executive level. She's also an author and entrepreneur and as she likes to say, a general badass. Boz got her start in her marketing career at Spike Lee's ad agency, spike, d d b. She led global consumer marketing at Apple Music and iTunes. Then she served as chief brand officer at Uber and then took on the chief marketing officer role for Endeavor. And most recently she served as the global chief marketing officer at a little company. You probably have heard of ye old Netflix. Her new book, the Urgent Life was just published from Viking Books. The book is a roadmap to navigating struggle and a touchstone for those enduring their own battles, letting them know that they are not alone and that they can make it through, and that there is light and peace and even inspiration waiting for them when they do. And she says she counts her highest achievement as being a mother to her 13 year old daughter. So we are so excited to bring you our conversation with Bozoma St. John. We had a blast talking to her.
Doree: We really did
Kate: Enjoy. All right,
Doree: Bozoma, we are so happy to have you on Forever 35. Welcome to the show.
Bozoma: Thank you very much. I like the Forever 35 idea.
Kate: Thank you.
Doree: Thank you. As the podcast gets now, been doing this podcast for five years and we're each getting farther and farther away from 35. So yeah,
Kate: I forgot going to be half forever 45. Yeah.
Bozoma: You know what? And then yeah, we'll all go there. That's fine. Totally
Doree: Fine. Exactly, exactly. So we like to start off by asking our guests about a self-care practice that they have. So we're wondering if there is anything in your life that you're kind of doing regularly that you would consider self care.
Bozoma: Yeah, sleep. I sleep, I sleep, I sleep. I sleep really well. And by the way, that's not the new thing. I've always slept very well and by very well, I mean that I'm getting my eight hours, sometimes nine even at the heights of my career or pressure in corporate boardrooms and all that, I was getting my sleep. That's something I do not play around with and I know what it does to me. You know what I mean? Yeah. I feel less sharp. I feel just like I'm not in a good mood. Oh yeah, I'm a baby. You know what I'm saying? I need my sleep. And honestly, I know now I'm going to get all philosophical and deep, but it's like when you're poised to do some real battle in boardrooms, you need every function hitting at a thousand. You know what I'm saying? So I was not about to be messing around trying to get what I needed to get done in boardrooms at like 60% capacity. So sleep. Sleep is self-care always.
Kate: So I want to ask how you set that boundary, because as someone who has been such a pivotal person in corporate America where I feel like sleep is not valued. In fact, oftentimes what's valued is operating on little to no sleep. That even this kind of dialogue that that's what makes you a hard worker. Have you had to really fight for that boundary? And do you have tips and tricks on how you have held it for other folks who might be experiencing something similar?
Bozoma: You could not be more right. I cannot tell you the amount of people. Well, no, I don't have to tell you the amount of people who brag about the four hour sleep cycle, but whatever the nonsense is, I'm literally, you're lying. First of all, maybe you're not lying, but you're definitely unhealthy. And I'm not trying to use that as hashtag goals, you know what I'm saying? Why? No way. So no, don't, when people say that, I literally look at them and I'm like, oh, well you got to fix that. That's actually a problem. It is actually not good for you either. You need to see a doctor who can help you sleep more or you need to figure out how to adjust your life so that you're getting the rest that your body needs and your mind needs. So I definitely don't praise that at all.
But you're right that look, I've been very, very, very intentional with how to plan and schedule in my life, my work life especially, and home life also, so that I could get the sleep that I needed. It probably started when I first had my baby and people said ridiculous things like, you should sleep when the baby sleeps. And I was like, oh, you don't realize that's when I've got to clean. And that's when I got to take a shower and that's when I got to eat. It's when she falls asleep, I can finally do stuff for me. But it made more and more sense as I got past those first early months and I was just like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I need to figure out how actually to go to sleep at night when she goes to sleep. You know what I mean?
Everybody shut off all the lights, everybody go to sleep. Now what has happened, because also as my career continued to progress and I got bigger and bigger roles, I started managing global teams, which meant that when you've got to have a meeting with your team in Hong Kong or your team in Australia the time zones can be a killer, especially if you live in LA. Yeah. So now you're doing meetings at 9:00 PM when you should be really winding down your day. So again, I had to be very intentional, meaning that sometimes what happens is you actually just need to set the expectation, even though it's scary, even though that people are going to look at you funny and they're probably going to judge you, you're going to have to be okay with that. At some point, you're going to have to talk to yourself and say, look, they are going to talk about you, and it is okay, let them do that.
Because when I actually show up to work, oh, I am here and I'm going to be giving you everything I have, and by the way, you're going to feel it. I'm not phoning it in when I'm present. I'm a hundred percent there and I'm going to be faster than you. I'm going to be sharper than you. So you better get your sleep too. Cause I'm coming with my A game. And so therefore the expectation I've set is that when I'm in the room, I am a hundred percent in the room. I'm not even looking at my phone. I'm not distracted by any other emails or anything else. I'm locked in. And so when I am off and I'm like, Hey look, this is do not disturb right here between the hours of 9:00 PM and 8:00 AM nobody talked to me, I'm not available. That's how I've done it.
Doree: Do you have any specific rituals around bedtime and Yeah, what are they?
Bozoma: Well, around bedtime, so I am somebody who really loves TV and movies and my phone, so I won't pretend to be those people. Well, actually, I have a funny story about that. When I first met Ariana Huffington, and she has a very deep and serious rule around electronics, so at the time, I don't, I dunno if she still has this, but at the time she had this I dunno if she called a phone bed, I don't know what she called, but it was like,
Kate: Yes, yes, that's right.
Bozoma: Are you familiar with this thing?
Kate: Yes cause I've tried this.
Bozoma: So she gifted that to me. She was like, okay, you put it in the living room or put it somewhere away from your bedroom and you know, Laye,l with my daughter. She's like, you guys can do it together at night. Everybody takes their phones, you tuck it into the bed and then you go to your room. And I was like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Until I was totally not doing that. The phone bed was over here gathering dust, the phone bed was empty,
Kate: Nobody was sleeping in that phone bed.
Bozoma: Nobody was sleeping in there. So I work on more realistic expectations for myself, the fact that I do like my phone and I like movies and I like tv. So my wind down is that I don't take any meetings or any phone calls, friends or family or work past 9:00 PM Everybody knows that unless it's an emergency, think something terrible has happened. Do not call me. I won't pick it up. And then I am maybe watching a favorite episode of a show of my favorite show, an episode, or I'm checking Instagram or something that I feel is entertaining to me that I enjoy. It's almost mindless. I can do that for about an hour, but I have to be lights out at 10:00 PM absolutely lights out 10:00 PM I have to be asleep, otherwise it won't work.
Doree: What I'm hearing from you in all of this is that you've set really great boundaries around sleep. And I'm wondering if that kind of boundary setting is something that you do in all aspects of your life. And how did you get good at that?
Bozoma: Yes. Yes. Actually, you know what? You're right. I do have those projects everywhere. Like, wait, This, I'm like, are you my therapist? Is that what's happening here?
Kate: No.
Bozoma: How do we get here?
Kate: You got a new course to write for all of us.
Bozoma: Like, wait, hold on. You don't look like my therapist, but damn
<laugh>. No, but you're right. You're right. I think now that I think about it, I do have pretty solid boundaries. And actually maybe it's even more than boundaries. It's scheduling. It just helps me to organize my life. Definitely not one of those people that can manage in chaos. Even when chaotic situations have happened to me, I tried to put some order in the chaos because that's the only way I know how to sort of manage myself. And that's a very big distinction from managing the chaos. The chaos is going to, yes, the chaos is going to be the chaos. Yeah, but how do I manage myself within the chaos? I look at it like a storm. If you ever lived in the Midwest that if a tornado or big storm is coming, you can't control the tornado, you can't control the storm. But what can you do?
You tape up your windows, you got a basement, you got some provisions down there. It's the same type of mentality that it's like, look, you just need to get prepared so that you can organize so you can survive the storm or survive the chaos, whatever the thing is. And sometimes the chaos is at your work. Sometimes it's your kids or your relationship, Lord have mercy. You know what I mean? Or any number of things that could be the chaos that you just don't feel like you have the ability to control because it keeps throwing things at you unexpected. They just keep coming out of the left field. But it's like, okay, the one thing I can manage is myself, my own boundaries, my schedule. Even if things come in, disrupt my schedule, more often than not, I am within the confines of it and I feel very comfortable there.
And so that's how I've really been able to manage these things. So even in how I interact with my daughter, our literal schedule, when I'll jump to a point, my husband passed away in 2013, my daughter was four he died of cancer. And we, oh man, I don't even know. I've written a whole book, but I still can't articulate <laugh> what that moment was like and the kind of confusion and fear and grief that I was thrown into. But one thing that came out of it for her and I, which I'm just, I'm so thankful, is that it just changed my perspective on motherhood. It changed my perspective on how I would interact with her in that she was no longer a person for me to manage. She was no longer this thing over there that I've got to like, okay, do the play dates and da da, da, and get the clothes and get the food.
And it was no longer like that. I was like, oh honey <laugh>, look, I did not plan to be a single mom. I don't even know what that is. I was like, and I don't know what to do with you. You're four years old and I'm just looking out at years of this. And it was terrifying. So I looked at her and I was like, look, you're going to help me. You're going to have to help me to raise you. You have to tell me what you need. I will tell you what I need. And at the time, I was also on a very steep trajectory in my career. And look, again, I'm not apologizing for the things about me that other people might be like, Ooh, she should not say that. No, I am highly ambitious. I knew then that I wanted to get to the top. I was already on my way. And so I was like, Hey, look honey, I may be a single mom now, but I'm still going cause I'm still on my way up. That is still important to me. And so how do we manage this schedule so that I know when you need me to be someplace? And she was four. I was having this conversation like,
Kate: Yeah, imagining me having this with my kids. And I'm like, they're 12 and 10. No,
Bozoma: No, but the thing is, I'm we, but look, the amazing thing is, even at that time, she was able to articulate things to me because I allowed her, the space to, her voice was important in my house, in our house rather. And so I was able to say, look, what are the things like, okay, we're looking at all these play dates and the choir recital and the dance recital and the basketball game, and mommy can't do all these things. I'm not going to be here for all the things. So tell me what are the things that are really, really important? What are the things? And at that time, I would say things like, if I wasn't there, you would feel bad. What are the things?
And so she would point things out and she could articulate the things that would make her feel badly if I wasn't there. And so I remember once, it was the first day of school and I had on the calendar, and she had not said that the first day of school was going to be important. I had a meeting, I was living in LA where we were living in la. I was working for Apple at the time, and what a crazy time that was. I had to fly. I was flying up to Cupertino from LA every single day. Every day I was doing that, yes, every day I had made a plant and the flight is like 45 minutes. But the commute with getting to the airport and everything else was an hour and a half. But I made a deal with her school going to this lovely Catholic school, <laugh> in Los Angeles, made a deal with the administration that I could drop off at seven 30.
I would race the airport, be able to catch the 8:45 AM flight, be able to walk into a meeting at 10:00 AM do my day leave, catch the six 20 flight back, walk into my house by 8:00 PM and put her to bed by eight 30. I did that every day for two years. I know it was good. But for me, it was like what I needed to do in order to feel like I was both getting what I needed for my career because I truly enjoy it and also be there for her. By the way, I was still asleep by nine.
Kate: Yeah, no, we got to wait a second.
Bozoma: I was still in bed. Hold on. I still in bed. No, because look, the thing is that everything is a choice. We are making choices every day. We pretend as if like, oh my gosh, I can't because I have to do da da. No, no, no. You're making choices. You're making choices. So what are the choices you're making? What are the choices you're making?
Kate: Also, I appreciate that you're also saying you can't do it all. No, that's not human. It's not possible that you can do some of it. Yes. And you can do, when you're doing some of it, it sounds to me like you're trying to do setting up ways for yourself to do it to the best of your ability that's within the means that you can
Bozoma: That's right. And that's why to me, in mothering her, it was important to understand what are the things that are important to her. I cannot do everything. I won't be there for every single day. I won't be there for the bake sale. And I'm sorry, I lost the thread. What I was going to say is that it was the first day of school. I knew I was going to miss it. We had already talked about it, but her little six-year-old brain could not commit <laugh>. So a couple days before school started, she's just like, the letter came in or whatever, that asked parents to come and hang out for the whole day. And she's like, oh, I'm so excited, I can't wait. And I was like, oh, no, hold on. No, we agreed. I'm going to be in Cupertino. There's no way I can come to first day. And she started, she was looking disappointed, and I was like, okay, let's talk about this. I was like, what I can do, I can take a little bit of a later flight, okay, I'm going to move some meetings around so I can take, but look, I've talked to her. She's is an employee. <laugh> what I'm saying in the, you know what I mean? Well,
Kate: You're on a team, on a team together
Bozoma: We're on a team and I have to explain things. Yes. And even though she's six, or she was six at the time, I was like, look, I have to go to these meetings. And we talked about this and we agreed that I would miss the first day of school. But what I'm going to do now is I can move some meetings around. I can't say all day, but I'll move some meetings around so I can be there at least for the first couple hours. So we get to school, we're doing our little thing, she's packing the bag, I'm setting up her desk and I see her in the corner or her little girlfriends, I can overhear them and all the parents are milling around. I'm also feeling pretty shitty myself to be honest with you, that I can see all the parents are sticking around, even though Layle and I had agreed.
And I hear her talking to her friends and she's like, oh, I think she's trying to set them up. My mom can't stay the whole day. And I'm feeling crushed. I'm just like, oh God. But then she says, then she's using the words I used earlier in the day. She was like, well, she had a very busy day, but she moved some meetings so that she can be here for a couple of hours, and then she's going to get on the plane and she's going to go to her work at Apple, and then she's going to come home and I'm going to tell her all about my day. And I was like, yep, there we have it. It's like, I'm going to continue doing the things I want to do. I want to make sure that she has a voice she's heard in our house, even when she changes her mind on some things. But I'm not going to apologize for wanting to do the things that are going to make me feel satisfied as an executive, as a ambitious woman in business. I want to do all of those things.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Okay. We're back.
Kate: I had been watching earlier this, or I guess end of last week, an interview that you did at South by Southwest with Ashley Graham. And you say to her at some point in the conversation, "my experience is worthy." And I think you were speaking about it in the context of your professional experience, and you've been on such an amazing professional journey as we've been talking about. And it just led me to wonder if, have you always known that your experience is worthy and has value? Or is that something that you had to learn? Because I feel like that's a challenging thing to see our own worth, not just in ourselves, but in our experience. Yes, in our experiences. Especially as we age.
Bozoma: Yeah. Okay. So this is a really good one because my, I'll give the credit to my mom on helping me to understand my worthiness pretty early. So my family moved from Ghana to Colorado Springs, Colorado when I was 12 as you can imagine, at 12 years old. I didn't want to be different from anybody. I, if you remember, I mean, I think we want to be 35 now, but remember when you were 12 and well, maybe not you, but for me, I was not cute, not as cute as I am now. And I just wanted to be everybody else. They were white. They had lived in Colorado Springs almost their whole lives. They all knew each other. They were all about the same religion. You know what I'm saying? Everything else was so different about me. And there was a particular day when I'd finally broken in and how hard that joint is to break into the clique.
I'd finally broken in. I was finally not just, I'd been invited to their house or some of the girls' houses for Friday night dinner and stuff like that. And finally they had accepted my invitation to come to my house. So I get back to my house, we're preparing whatever, and my mom is about to make some dinner, and I see that she's making some very fragrant food. I use the word fragrant carefully. You know what I'm saying? There was a whole lot of spices and smells coming out of the kitchen. So I go to her and I'm just like, Hey, look like these kids, they're not used to our food. They don't, they're not used to our spices. Can we just order some pizza? Just keep it simple. Get some coke. I don't understand. Just keep it simple. And I thought I was saying something that was going to be helpful.
And I remember her face when she rounded on me, and she just looked at me direct. I feel 12 right now, telling the story. And she looked at me and she said, when you go to their house, you can eat their food and you can speak their language. When they come to our house, they will eat our food and speak our language. And I looked at her, this woman has lost her goddamn mind. You know what I mean? I was like, what are you talking about? I was just like, these kids are not going to be able to eat the foods the first of all, it's going to burn their mouths. Cause it's too much pepper. They're not going to understand a word we're saying. I don't understand what you're talking about. But the thing is that it was such an important lesson, and she did, by the way, she made them eat our food.
And to this day, they're my girlfriends from back then. Who, by the way, were all still friends. They just had a reunion last week. I couldn't go cause busy and work and all that. But they ask for her food all the time. They'll just be like, oh, does she makes a spinach disc called Cantore? And they'll be like, oh, your mom's spinach. Can we come over and have some? But what it taught me was something so much deeper. And of course I couldn't put that together until adulthood. But the reason why I'm able to walk into places and understand my worth is because of that moment, knowing that, look, I don't have anything to be ashamed of. My experiences are as worthy as your experiences. My language is as important as your language. My food is as important as your food. I'm not saying that anybody's is better or worse or anything like that, but it is as worthy, just as worthy comparatively equally. So why should I shrink myself? Why should I feel badly about that? And so for me, that is what has really helped me to understand that. Now, I won't pretend as if there have been experiences which have made me feel unworthy or people who haven't tried to knock me down a peg or two. Oh, that happens all the time. It happens now. But at the same time, I have the foundation of really in my core, my soul understanding how worthy I am.
Kate: What a moment.
Bozoma: Yeah, for sure.
Kate: Did I believe you write about that in the book? I feel like I read that somewhere, but now I'm blanking. Cause I've been reading a lot of stuff
Bozoma: I didn't know if I did, to be honest with you. There's so many stories.
Doree: Well, were so several moments that really stuck with me where you were describing the experience of being the only black person in the room, whether it was with Peter's family or in the Netflix C suite. And yeah, it did really kind of move me in those moments of how much you had to bring to those interactions to be able to navigate them.
Bozoma: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing is that, oh, I think it was a surprise to Peter as well, because here's a white man who we're in love. Everything is great. We think it's like, yes, we want to spend the rest of our lives together. What could possibly go wrong? But at the same time, there were the challenges of our race and culture, the differences in that. Now look, if you had asked Peter then are you racist? Are you biased? Of course he would say no, right? Because I mean, he wasn't by all accounts. But the truth of the matter is that he was a second generation Italian American, white man Catholic from Worcester, Massachusetts. There wasn't a whole lot of diversity happening in his community. And no, of course he wouldn't be outwardly calling people names or discriminating, but he also didn't, just didn't have the experiences of diversity. And so oftentimes I think about that, and I remember even at the start of the pandemic, I kept getting on these interviews, broadcast interviews. I think I was one on Msnbc when literally it was like, I think I rolled my eyes. I was so annoyed.
I think I was on some sort of panel with some other CEOs and they were asking us what to do about racial reckoning and all of this stuff. And I was so annoyed because I was just like, look, you keep talking about policy changes and writing laws and all that. I was like, but how about your own company or your own family, your own circle of friends? I was like, do you have any black friends? Do you have any other friends who are not like you in your inner circle though? And the truth of the matter might be no. And I'm not asking you to go pull some random black person off the street and say though, oh, now you're my friend and represent the entire race. I was like, but we all have to be self-aware of our actual environments. Where are your inputs coming from?
And again, I'm not saying anybody needs to feel shame over that, or I'm going to point the finger and say, ah, you are racist. That's not the point of the exercise. It's just that we need to be more self-aware about who we are and how we operate and what our inputs are that are coming to us. And the same for Peter that I obviously, I understood. I think the concept of, okay, white man walking around the planet knowing that he's in charge of everything. I think I understood that from a philosophical standpoint. It was very different being up close and personal to it. Because I remember once I wrote about this in the book that we went to Ghana together for the first time, and I was so excited to take him because of course, it's where my family's from. I wanted him to get the experience of culture and food, the things we've just talked about.
But in the back of my mind, I also, and this is what I didn't articulate to him, I think I did put it in the book though. I didn't articulate to him that I also wanted him to feel what I feel when I'm walking around here. I wanted him to feel what it's like to be othered, to feel like you're just not one of the people, because I feel that every day, even in my city that I live in. And we got there, and he did not feel that at all. He was still king. He walked around. He still owned everything. And I was like, oh, shoot. I had no idea, <laugh>, that you would've, you literally feel comfortable everywhere on the planet. Shocked. I was just like, oh, you never feel like afraid. You never feel like, Ooh, I don't belong here. Maybe I should back away from this room. You just never feel like that ever anywhere, yo, it blew my entire mind. And I was angry about it, pissed off across, just like, how dare you walk around this planet? You own everything. Oh, oops. You do. Okay, let me get back to what I was thinking like, but it was hard to reconcile those feelings. And also, of course, I love the man. It was hard to reconcile all of that.
Kate: Can you tell our readers a little bit about your book and what you hope folks take away from reading it?
Bozoma: Yeah, my book. So I wrote it. I started writing it because I wanted to capture the months, well, actually it was more like a few weeks when we found out that my husband's cancer would be terminal, and that it was a real pivot and inflection point in my life, which has turned my sort of my exuberance for life, my impatience and things that I would do into more pointed, purposeful, intentional urgency. It was at that point that my life changed. And I was like, oh gosh, no. Wait, hold on. I can't just rush through this thing. I really have to this thing. I'm talking about life. I've got to be really intentional about what I want to do. I want to expand my years, not just lengthen them. And when I started writing, it was a surprise to me. Maybe it won't be sound like a surprise to you, but it was a surprise to me that I was pulling on other threads that pulled other memories, other experiences together.
And as I was writing, I was like, oh my gosh. Well, that connects to this other thing that happened, and that connects to this other thing that happened. And before you know it, I had a whole tapestry of memories that were some very, very traumatic, some fun and happy. A lot of it was about how my evolution as a person has contributed to this urgency that I live now. And so even as I was pitching the book, a lot of publishers were saying, well, we want the business book. We want how to be a badass book. We want how to become a marketing guru book. We want a book for women that tells them how to skip the rungs on the ladder and kick down the bad guys. They wanted that book.
And I was just like, well, yeah, yeah, I get it. I understand why you want that book, but there's no book like that without first understanding why I'm like, the reason I'm like, this is because of the traumas, cause of the loss, cause of the urgency, my survival. That's why I'm like this. And so I can't jump all the way to be badass without talking about what I've overcome. And I especially feel like for all of us, especially women. So we've been made to feel like we can't bring any of those vulnerabilities into our work or any place really. It's almost as if it's weakness to admit the things that perhaps are dogging you. You're making you feel like you're less than, or making you feel weak. First of all, that word weakness, I'm, it can't be an expression of what life does to you. I mean, look, I feel very, very strong, very, very powerful in spite of the things that have happened, and maybe because of the things that have happened to me. And so I wrote the book for that reason. I think it's time for us to talk more openly about some of these things that have happened to us that can make it appear as if you're weak because you have all these scars from the traumas of life. But yet really, it's like what makes us super duper strong?
Kate: Well, it's like, as you said, your experience has worth and is worthy. I mean, this is part of it. These are all the things that we bring to the table, and they have such value, whether or not even if some folks perceive them as weaknesses or as flaws or lesser than they're not. Yeah. But
Bozoma: That's the thing is that, look, I have a pretty dramatic story, but I don't think it's unique. I don't think my experiences are just like, oh my gosh, look at this. Nobody can compete with her traumas <laugh>. Like we've all been through some stuff. Everybody has. And so I just wonder if there's space for us to consider our own worthiness and our strength because of the things that we've overcome or because of the things we're dealing with, and still being able to show up at the bake sale and in the boardroom and at church and at weekend soccer. You know what I'm saying? We should still feel like all of those things that make us who we are, are actually gathering to make us that much more important. We're important in the moments and in our lives. I think about I've talked about this sometimes about biology and science, physics, this idea of matter, that when you look at matter, all it takes is one molecule for the entire matter to change.
It's not a whole bunch. You don't take out half of the thing of the matter, and then it changes. No, it's literally one molecule. So if you consider that your work or your school or your communities matter, and you are a molecule, your addition to that thing changes it completely. And when you're not there, it changes again. So why would you consider that you don't matter? Why would you think that your presence is not something to be accounted for and bringing all of the experiences you have? So I am completely unapologetic in my work or any other place. I mean, it's like I have to put my stamp on something. Oh, look, every place I've ever worked has my fingerprint prints all over that thing. I am a better executive because of the things that have happened to me. I'm much more empathetic because I'm a widow, because my mother had cancer twice, because I've lost a baby, because my boyfriend died by suicide. Because I feel guilt over all those things that I cannot change, that I think about constantly and wish I could. I'm a better person because of all those things. And so if I can bring that, then hopefully people I work with, people I interact with, who also feel comfortable bringing those things. And I wish all of us could do that more, and we could be a better society for being more empathetic.
Kate: Wow. Bozoman. This has been a freaking treat to get to talk to you. I got to say, I'm leaving here feeling inspired and moved. Same energized, also very eager to go to bed tonight and not have anybody bother me. <laugh>, really? It's funny you mentioned it. I've been thinking about how I have to really set this bedtime boundary for myself and get eight hours of sleep. So you, you said it at the right time.
Bozoma: Okay. I'm telling you, Kate, this is, it is so wonderful. Sleep is so wonderful. I get it. Get it, honey, you deserve it.
Kate: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Doree: Where can our listeners find you if they want to follow you and Oh, yes. Get your book.
Bozoma: Well, I mean, I name myself a badass because I am. So I'm @Badassboz on almost every social network there is. My book is available everywhere books are sold. Yay, yay. And yeah, I hope to continue to be in many public spaces so that we can continue to share. So hopefully they'll find me in any of those places. But also, just look for me. I'm around.
Doree: Great. Thank you so much. It was really a pleasure to get to talk to you.
Bozoma: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Kate: Doree, I shared this with you and Bozoma after we stopped recording about how I had seen her at a Hollywood event. Yes. It was the Writer's Guild Award, which honors writing and TV and film and writers. It's not always the Oscars fashion wise.
Doree: That's a very diplomatic assessment
Kate: For some of some folks. But it's a different vibe. It's
Doree: A different crowd. It's
Kate: A different crowd. And at the time, my husband was actually nominated for a show he had been writing on called Dead to Me. And so we were with other Netflix people and across from me at a table was Bozoma. And I was like, and she was in the coolest outfit I had ever seen. And I just remember asking the table, who is that? And then finding out she was on the corporate side of things, because I think so often we equate fashion with, not with corporate America, like fashion people expressing themselves through fashion. I know when I worked in very strict corporate America finance, hello. In a past life, I worked at Alliance Bernstein in a terrible time in my life, but I would wear just grey suits.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Yeah. I've never told you about that part of my life, Doree. But it was not good. It was a bad
Doree: Time. We have not discussed that
Kate: I was an assistant. Yeah. Anyway, she was wonderful. I loved getting to chat with her.
Doree: She was very cool. She was very, very cool. We also, we didn't even get to talk about her makeup and her nails, which were really spectacular. So
Kate: So Cool.
Doree: Yeah. That was maybe another conversation
Kate: Next time, hopefully.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. Well, we shared intentions on our live show as well as on our last live episode two weeks ago. And I had intended to be chill traveling to New York City, which I was. And it was great. I even brought my travel yoga mat and did some travel yoga a
Doree: a Couple times,
Kate: Just 10 to 15 minutes of stretching. But it was really nice. I love my travel yoga mat. I'll, we link to it. It's made by manduka. And if you weren't present for our after live show after party, my intention there was to delete TikTok off my phone. And I did. And I'm not liking it, but I haven't put it back on.
Doree: I love that
Kate: I was wasting so much time on TikTok, speaking of bedtime boundaries. So it's gone off my phone. Oof. And maybe I don't ever need to be on TikTok. Maybe I can let that pass me by.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, it might be the kind of thing that is hard for you to moderate, and maybe it's just easier for you if you don't do it at all.
Kate: We'll see how that goes. I'm only a few days in, but this week, Doree, I have vowed to figure out some body movement. Again. I've been really kind of just taking it slow with exercise and moving my body. I mean I'm playing pickleball. I'm horseback riding. I'm going for nice walks with my dogs. I'm doing some yoga and stretching, but I'd like to get back into just a little bit. I like something to look forward to. And I actually did this today. I kind of can already check this one off, because I went to my old Pilates studio today for the first time since almost probably before the Covid Pandemic began.
Doree: Oh, wow.
Kate: And I did a cardio Pilates class, a jump class on the reformer. It was so hard.
Doree: How was that?
Kate: It was so hard. It was so much fun. I really love Pilates. It's gentle for my body. So I'm, I'm going to hopefully go back. I'm just kind of experimenting with different movement and seeing what feels good.
Doree: Love that for you.
Kate: Thank you. Alright, talk to me. Where are you in the intention zone?
Doree: Okay. So my intention last week was to avoid bedtime creep and
Kate: Know bedtime creep.
Doree: And I think I actually did a pretty good job of that, especially considering that I was away for a few days and it would've been really easy to just stay up late. You know what I mean? There was nothing else. There's nothing to do really. I didn't have to be up at a certain time, but I went to bed relatively early, so that was nice. I actually have a similar intention for this week as you, because I have been sick and I've been trying, I haven't really been exercising because I have really been trying to honor my body and rest. And it was interesting because in the midst of my sickness, I read this article that I think ran on the New York Times a few months ago, but they just resurfaced it recently. How sometimes they do that with health articles,
Kate: Pop a new headline on there, pop a new title or whatever they call it.
Doree: And they talk about exercising while you're sick. And they quote someone as saying, the most popular advice is to do what's referred to as the neck check, where if symptoms are above the neck, exercise is probably safe. So if your only symptoms are nasal congestion and the low grade headache, for example, a light workout shouldn't make your cold worse. This is what the article says. But then it says, if you do have symptoms below the neck, such as a hacking cough, chest discomfort, nausea, diarrhea, or body wide symptoms like fever, muscle aches, or fatigue, then it's not a good idea to exercise. And I had the definition of a hacking cough.
Kate: Yeah, you did.
Doree: It was a hacking cough. So I did not exercise. And I feel like now I'm pretty much better. And so I'm going to kind of ease back into things. So I'm going to copy your intention for the week.
Kate: I love it. I love it.
Doree: So
Kate: Yeah, moving slowly. Yeah.
Doree: Yep. Yep.
Kate: Slowly moving.
Doree: Well, Kate, this has been really fun and I, I'm
Kate: Happy to do this with you.
Doree: Likewise. And I just want to remind everyone that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shrier and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Juno. Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is Acast. Talk to you all again soon. Farewell.
Kate: Bye.