Episode 243: Straight From The Giraffe’s Mouth with Misha Body
“Some people think of us as arcs. That’s too simple of an answer. There are lots of different facets to what good modern accredited zoos are doing to try to help stem some of that extinction loss and the loss of this unbelievable biodiversity.”
- Misha Body
Kate debates whether she’s having a midlife crisis and Doree reveals a surprising fitness goal. Then, Misha Body, the Director of Wildlife Care at the San Diego Zoo, joins them to talk about what self-care looks like for someone in charge of both animals and people, the role zoos play in animal conservation, and how we can make zoos accessible to more diverse populations.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No. But we are two friends. We like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: Hey babies, welcome to the show. Friendly reminding.
Doree: Bring it back, the babies,
Kate: Bring it back. Bring it back. Hey babies. Feeling a little spicy. I've had two cups of chai tea, so I whi <laugh>. I'm a little high on life right now.
Doree: Anything can happen,
Kate: Anything could happen, you can visit our website Forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mention on the show. Instagram @Forever35podcast is where you're gonna find us mostly on social media. Of course, there is a Forever35 Facebook group and amazing community there with a password to serums. You can shop our favorite curated products at shopmy.us/forever35 and you can sign up for the Forever35 newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter.
Doree: You can also call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and our email is forever35podcast@gmail.com. Kate, do people still text us eggplant emojis or is that kind of not a thing anymore?
Kate: Oh, we still get 'em. Yeah, we do. I mean, if you are gonna text us and you were not gonna include it one, I would say now is the time to spice things up with an eggplant emoji. But yes, people still do text them.
Doree: Okay, I was just curious. Yeah
Kate: I'm looking right now and I'm just seeing if anybody has texted one recently. Here's one. Yep. Here's one right here. <laugh>.
Doree: There we go. You go. Go.
Kate: Yep.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Yep.
Doree: Kate.
Kate: Oh, hi. Yes,
Doree: Hello. Hi. We've been having a discussion I feel like over text that I see you now want to bring to the rest of the class.
Kate: Yes, teacher, I <laugh> do. Okay. Should we just talk about how this unfolded, this conversation?
Doree: Yes. Okay, let's do it.
Kate: Okay. So a few days ago a very dear old friend of mine who is on the board for a nonprofit in Boston posted that her organization had been given a charity bid for the Boston Marathon. And they were looking to fill the spot and meant you would raise money for the organization. You make a commitment to raise a certain amount of money and you run the Boston Marathon. As discussed on this podcast, I don't love running, but I've always wanted to run the Boston Marathon. And if you have never been to the Boston Marathon, I think it's hard to kind of understand the emotional experience of it. But it went through my, as do and I have discussed, it happens on Patriot's Day in Massachusetts. It's a day off that this entire state is off. So everybody has this day off. Most people, I shouldn't say everybody.
And the marathon happens on this day and marathon runs through the town that I grew up in, right through the town. So we would walk down and every year we would go to the marathon. And every year my mom would get excited because the doctor who delivered me would run by us. And it's extremely emotional and moving, especially if you're me a person who's moved at everything. But I find the Boston Marathon to be extremely moving and it's something I've always wanted to do, even though I don't, I'm not like a passionate runner and I'm also a slow runner. So that's the backstory. So my friend posted looking for this to fill this spot and I was like, oh, should I do it? Should I do it? Should I do it? Because I've always wanted to do it. I would like to do it for charity. I'm never gonna qualify because I don't, I'm not, I'm just not. And so I would do it through charity. And so I had a 48 hours of trying to decide if I should run the Boston Marathon and I decided not to
Doree: Take us through, take us through all of your thought processes.
Kate: When she posted this, I was immediately, I should do this. I've always wanted to do it. It's a sign. I'm kind of having this weird midlife crisis, which I'll get into. And I was just like, you know what? Fuck it. I should do it. I've trained, I've done three half marathons. I do know how to train for a longer race. My kids are older. I live in California where the climate's better. And then I went search. I thought about, this is now getting really kind of wooy, but I thought when my mom got cancer, I fund raised and raised money for Mass General Hospital just on my own. And it was very moving and it was this whole thing and it was a big part of how I coped with my mom dying. So that always resonates. And I thought about my friend Sam, who's no longer alive, and she and I used to run together and I was like, I should do this for Sam.
And then I went into the fish <laugh>, the fish running group that I'm in on Facebook. And I looked up Boston Marathon and this guy had been posting his runs and then I googled him and then I found out he had died last year while going on a run. And I got really emo, I started just thinking about all these people who would do it if they could. I mean, again, not approaching this with reason, really approaching it from an emotional standpoint. So thinking of that, kinda looking at these signs, I was like, yes, I should do it. And then I really took a step back. Well also then I texted my two, number one, or I spoke to my two main life coaches, my husband and my podcast partner who are essentially of the same brain.
Doree: That's a scary thought.
Kate: <laugh>. But I mean, I'm basically your, I'm like your husband. I
Doree: Know, it's weird. It's
Kate: Weird, weird how it's like this, but you both had the same, neither of you are like, yes, the universe is telling you to run <laugh>. Which other people did say, oh really? Oh, so many people were like quoted Gretchen Ruben. I mean, then of course took it to Instagram. Yeah.
Doree: Oh my god, this is so interesting cuz I will, yes, once you're done, I will tell you what was going through my head.
Kate: Yes. So Anthony, I was like, should I run the Boston marathon? And Anthony was like, no, youre so busy. You're writing another, you're working on another book. You've got so much going on. I know how busy you are. No, what? He was just straight up, no. And then I was like, I know text Doree, she'll tell me to do it. And Doree's response was just, I think if you can run four runs a week, then you can, your response was just very not filled with any emotions. Just very direct <laugh>, which I was like great. And then I reached out to some more of my Woo friends who were a bit more do it. So
Doree: The universe is telling you
Kate: <laugh>. A lot of the uni I wanted, I wanted to really go with the universe is telling me. But also I think that I received so many interesting responses on Instagram. So many varied responses from people about runners, non-runners, how people find joy, how they decide about how they wanna spend their time. It was actually really moving cuz they don't know me, most of the people who responded. And so it was kind of interesting to get their insight. But ultimately I felt like I need a beat to really think about what it would entail to not just train for a marathon, but to fundraise in a meaningful way to really be able to throw myself into fundraising. Cause I think that's such an important part of it. When you do it with a organization, you are representing them and you are investing time and really trying to raise money for that organization. And I just didn't know if I could, I knew I could do it, but it just felt like a lot. So I took a step back and really thought about it and I'm not doing it. But that has led me to have a weird, I think I'm in the middle of a little bit of a midlife crisis,
But I don't know what about. I just feel untethered and, and the thing with running is that I fucking hate it. But then there's a part of me that wants to do it. And I think it's just the structure. I think it's the challenge. I think it's the comradery and the emotion. What I have decided to do is to train. I ran a couple miles for the last couple of days and I can definitely probably run three miles. I run walk number one to prevent injury. I do a run walk interval kind of thing. I think I can run a 5K pretty easily. So I've decided to train for a 5K in January and then maybe run a half marathon in May here in Southern California. And if I'm still feeling it, then I will have given myself the physical time to prepare my body. And then I will look into applying for a charity bid for the Boston Marathon. So I was like, I need to, not as impulsive as I always am, I'm a very impulsive person. It's how I've ended up with the pets that I have. It's how I live my life. How I ended up with this podcast, honestly, just an impulsive text to Doree and here I am. But I feel like that's the right decision for me now. Am I allowed to say what came out in our conversation that you shared?
Doree: Oh sure. Yes. <laugh>.
Kate: So <laugh> as I am texting Doree, do I run this marathon? Blah, blah, blah. I just get this text that says now is probably a good, I should tell you that. Or how did you phrase it? You were like, I guess is now the right time to share that? I've applied to run the New York City half Marathon.
Doree: So classic me <laugh>.
Kate: I respect the fact that we don't have to share everything with each other. We are not one person. You don't have to tell me everything you do in your life. But it really, and also I knew it, I knew there was something afoot because you've been busy out there doing Peloton runs. And I was like, Doree's very, you talked about how exercise is feeling really good. You've been out, you've been recommending Peloton runs to me.
Doree: That's just because you were thinking about training for a marathon. So I was like, let just telling you what I've been doing. Okay, Kate, as a person
Kate: Who's been thinking about running a half marathon,
Doree: Here is the thing. <laugh>, I did not go into my first run with the intention of running a half marathon. I legit decided I was going to start running again because I wanted to get better at tennis. And here's the thing I'm at, I feel like I'm at a point in my tennis game where my strokes are pretty good and my instincts are pretty good. And the thing that has is preventing me from getting better is my actual level of fitness.
Kate: Endurance and stamina, huh?
Doree: Yes. And part of that is running and weight training. And so I was like, well, I kind of just wanna do this. I wanna do it because I wanna do it. But also my big picture thing is maybe this will also help me get better at tennis. But then I did my first run walk and I was like, oh yeah, right.
Kate: Your body was like, Hello?
Doree: Running. And I looked at races in the LA area. Cause I used to really enjoy running races. I never did them with people. I did this all on my own. I never trained with people. It was very solitary. I enjoyed that aspect of it. There's not a ton in Los Angeles, it's not a big race town. It would be like do this 10 K in Redondo Beach. And I was like, you know what? I don't feel like driving to Redondo Beach to run a 10 k. I just don't
Kate: Should explain its like an hour to 90 minute drive.
Doree: Yeah, So anyway, I was like, this is annoying. Maybe I'll just see what's going on in New York because New York has, they have New York Road runners, which runs the New York Marathon and then runs many other races throughout the year. And then there's another organization that started maybe 12 or so years ago called New York Running Club or something like that.
Kate: The Harri, there's the Harriers, New York Harriers,
Doree: No New York running, I don't know, whatever they're called. Something else have, there's another, another oh, NYC runs.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: That's what it's called. NYC Runs. And they do a lot of races in Brooklyn. Anyway, so between the two of them, there's a race practically every week. I feel like in New York you can just go run a 10K in Prospect Park anytime you want.
Kate: Yes. There's a lot out of that in all the parks. Totally.
Doree: And I was perusing the New York Roadrunners website and I was like, oh look, there's the New York half in March. And I never ran the New York half. I ran the Brooklyn half, which was very fun and ends in Coney Island. But I never ran the New York half. I ran some half marathons that just did loops around Central Park, which quite honestly is pretty anti-climactic. Anyway, I was like, oh, this would be fun because I don't know if I'm up for training for a whole marathon, but I maybe I could train for a half marathon in March because I do one 30 minute walk run. And suddenly I'm like, I must train for a half marathon <laugh>.
Kate: I mean, again, you've heard me,
Doree: You relate to this. And then it said that the New York half is a lottery and you can enter the lottery and if you get accepted, then your credit card gets charged and you're in. And then they also have charity bibs for the New York half. But I was like, okay, I'm not gonna think about that right now. But I was like, okay, I'll just enter the lottery. I will now let the universe, I'm going to let the universe decide. <laugh>
Kate: Look at you. Okay.
Doree: If I'm gonna do this, the drawing is not until the end of November. So I don't know, here is what was going through my mind when you told me that you wanted to run or you were thinking about running the Boston Marathon. I thought, I don't wanna tell Kate not to do this because I don't wanna quash her dreams <laugh>. However, my concern is that she's really excited about this and I know it's something she's wanted to do for a long time. I'm sorry to be talking to you in the third person.
Kate: No, no, no. I I'm
Doree: You're, you're hearing my thoughts.
Kate: Yeah, I'm engrossed. I'm engrossed.
Doree: But I worry that it's like she's seeing this as a sign and a sign is something that feels sort of random and comes at a random time. And I was like, I kind of had the same thing as Anthony. I was like, she has this book to finish. She's got so much going on. She's got two kids. She's like, A lot is happening. And I worry that it's actually not the right time for her and not, and the right time is going to be when she decides it's the right time, not when she gets some random sign. Take that agency Kate.
Kate: Wow. Take control of the universe is what I hear you saying
Doree: Yes. Don't let the universe buffer you around.
Kate: I appreciate that. And that that's actually kind of where I landed.
Doree: Kate, this all sounds wonderful. I hear this was another concern is I was like, if she signs up for it and she starts training and then she isn't able to finish it, she's going to be racked with so much guilt.
Kate: <laugh>. A hundred percent. And it should also be noted that I had covid and I still have lingering respiratory issues from that. Is this what's best for my body? That is something to consider, not even my mental health or my brain is this physically do my bones and tissues and organs want this. So that was another thing. I actually am kind of proud of myself for making a more calm decision because I tend to be so impulsive. So this feels right. But it does all kind of tie into the fact that I do feel like I'm in a little bit of this kind of searching for something space of life. And then I realize I'm 43 and I'm like, is this when the fucking midlife crisis starts? Like is this when I am? And also am I just avoiding all the trauma and rage I feel about the state of the world and the state of our country? I don't know. Anyway, this is a Preelection Day podcast. We should note this will come out. Ooh, this will come out right after election day. Ooh.
Doree: Oh baby.
Kate: All that's just weighin. That's weighin. Yep. Anyway, thank you for letting me work this out on this episode of the podcast. I didn't mean to make this so focused, but it honestly felt good to talk through it. So thank you. And I hope you get into that half marathon. I'm excited that you're running. I'm excited for you. I think it's great.
Doree: Thank you. I mean, we'll see. I don't know. Could be a Doree's folly, but we'll see. All right Kate, we need to take a break, but before that we need to introduce our guest.
Kate: So our guest today is Misha Body, who is currently the director of Wildlife Care at the San Diego Zoo. We have never had anyone on her before.
Doree: No, we haven't.
Kate: Before we speak to her, let us tell you a little bit about Misha. In college. She had an internship at the Bronx Zoo. She has volunteered at the Mystic Aquarium. After college, she returned to the Bronx Zoo as a wild animal keeper. Then she got a certificate in conservation biology from Columbia University. And then she came out to sunny California where she got to help develop a new department and brand new wing of the California Science Center. She was the first member of the Living Collections department. Then she became the director of husbandry. And this all took her to the San Diego Zoo where as mentioned, she is the Director of Wildlife Care. She's also a board member of the Minorities in Aquarium and Zoo Sciences. I mean, she has studied at the University of Southern California. She's got a mini MBA from Miami, Miami University, a master's degree through the "Advanced Inquiry Program, Miami University, San Diego Zoo Global". She is in it. She is a lifelong lover of wildlife and nature and conservation. And we just loved getting to talk to her. I mean, we covered, so we covered everything. How do you be responsible zoo goer? What was her career path? What is her self care
Doree: So much?
Kate: Also, she was told, I did ask her the hard hitting question, what is your favorite animal?
Doree: I was so glad you asked that.
Kate: So that's an important question to ask somebody who is an expert.
Doree: I know, but it, I was like, she can't say. Really.
Kate: I know. I understand. That's picking a favorite child or, I get it. But I still just wanted to throw it out there. Well look, after the break, we will be back with the wonderful Misha Body. Misha, welcome to Forever35. We're very glad to have you.
Misha: I'm so happy to be here
Doree: And we're recording this on Halloween. Misha is in a very cute giraffe costume.
Misha: Well, you can't work at a zoo and pass up an opportunity to dress up like an animal. So yes, here I am as a giraffe. <laugh>
Doree: I respect that.
Kate: Would you go far as to go have your photo taken with the giraffes, is that a thing that you can do as an employee of the zoo? Or am I just living a fantasy of what it is like to work at a zoo?
Misha: Well, any of our guests could do the same thing. Cause they could go straight to the giraffe habitat and get their photo taken right in front of those giraffes. And we have a premium experience as well where you can feed the giraffes as well, so you can get a little bit closer. But I guess as the Director of Wildlife Care, I could just say, Hey guys, let take a photo. But I don't like to abuse any privileges like that. <laugh>.
Doree: Well, Misha, we like to start our interviews by asking our guests about a self care practice that they have. So we're wondering what is yours?
Misha: Self care is a really, really important topic. And I don't know that I could pick just one strategy to talk about. But I will say that despite the fact that I live in California and we've been experiencing a drought for a very, very long time during the height of the pandemic, especially, the thing that I really found that was my kind of go-to self-care thing was to take a bath every weekend a nice hot bath with lavender epsom salts. And I would keep my ears under the water because it was the only way that I could just, everything is muffled. You can't hear anything except for really your breathing and your heartbeat. And that was the way for me to just chill. And I think mean self care's important for everybody, but I think for mission driven professionals, folks who are personally and professionally just invested in a really important cause, it's really, really hard to turn your brain off.
And then when you factor in animal care, it's 24/7, 365 days a year, the animals that we care for live 24 hour lives. And so you're kind of always thinking about them, and you're always thinking about them and what they're doing, and you're thinking about they don't get a break, they don't go home, they're there and we're continuing to care for them. And then you factor in if you're leading a whole team of people all of those people care deeply, deeply, deeply for the animals that they're taking care of. And so you start to worry about those people too. So self care is a super important thing that I was not always great at. I would say I'm still not awesome at it, but I have come to absolutely recognize the importance of it.
Kate: Was there something that shifted you just mentioning that it wasn't something you've always been great at, which, look, we all have had those things, but was there something that kind of changed that for you or made you recognize a need to implement more care for yourself?
Misha: Yeah I think there were two things actually. The first is that I was in an executive leadership development program. And so the program itself outlines all of these different things that you need to do a lot of deep reflection to figure out what it is that you need to work on for your leadership journey, your leadership development. And it turns out for me, self care was one of the things that I really needed to work on because we really can't show up for the people we're leading the way that we want to unless we're taking care of ourself first. So people have often said, you can't pour from an empty cup, or you should put on your own oxygen mask before you help others. And those things absolutely ring true. So I think that was one thing is that I was in the middle of this program when Covid hit <laugh>.
And so on the one hand it was kind of an amazing time to be a part of the program because there's a lot of support built in. You have peer feedback partners and mentors and coaches and whatnot and you're doing all of this deep reflection and learning to build and develop skills towards executive leadership. But then with Covid and George Floyd's murder, there were just, and the political landscape and climate change, I mean, there's so many things that were either coming to a head or piling on that. I think as an empathetic person, I, it's really hard to walk through life and not be really, really emotionally affected by all those things. All of the trauma that was happening around that time. And I mean still happening. And so I think between the leadership program and identifying that self-care was something I needed to work on, and then literally being pushed to the point where I had to because I was seeing myself not show up in the ways that I wanted to show up. I think those were the two sort of I don't wanna say trigger points, but the sort of two inciting incidents or events things that sort of led me to focus a little bit more on self-care.
Doree: You just mentioned taking an executive leadership course, and I was wondering if you could walk us through your career path, because you have a really interesting backstory to how you got into this field and you've had a lot of really cool jobs. So we'd love to just hear it from you
Misha: Straight from the giraffe's mouth,
Doree: Straight from the giraffe's mouth, if you will.
Misha: Sure. Actually, yes.
Doree: Before we get to that, what sound does the giraffe make?
Misha: <laugh>. Oh my god. What does gaffe sound like? I love this question.
Kate: Wait, that's like from a Cosby show, episode two Doree,
Doree: Is it?
Kate: Yeah, they all go to Stevie Wonders recording studio. And Rudy makes the sound of a giraffe. I could be.
Doree: What is the sound of a giraffe? I can't think of that.
Kate: Well, let's ask an expert versus Rudy.
Misha: So it's funny because this makes me remember this story from an old job that I had where I was a wildlife educator. And when you're doing education, you're trying to be really engaging and get some audience participation and lead inquiry and all this other stuff. And so you'd always ask these kids like, oh, what kind of sound does a cow make? What kind of sound does a horse make? And different animals that kids commonly know the kinds of noises they make. And then my punchline was always, and what sound does a giraffe make? And the kids would look at me, what are you talking about? I have no idea. And I don't actually tell you what I, we don't think we can hear the sounds that giraffes make.
Doree: Oh,
Misha: Wow. So if I were to try to make a sound that a giraffe makes, it would be munching on leaves and branches,
Doree: Thats so interesting. I never thought about the fact that we don't really talk about sounds that Giraffes make, I've never heard of giraffe make a sound. But then how do they communicate
Misha: some vocal chords? But exactly, I mean, different animals have different ways of communicating and seeing. They have all these different kinds of senses that we don't have, or the ranges of their senses are different than ours. So sometimes when animals are communicating with one another, they are making noises or they're having some sort of visual display, but we just don't sense it because our visual range or auditory range is different from theirs. So I think that giraffes, I might not be correct on this, but I think that giraffes have a very low frequency sound that they can make and that travels a very long distance. But we don't hear it just like we don't hear cats chirping at the really, really high frequencies.
Doree: Right. Sorry for the side tracking <laugh>,
Misha: And now I need to make a note too, did Misha say the right thing about giraffe communication. Okay. So my career path is, yeah, it's a little bit of a weird one. I always like to start telling the story by going back to high school, because oftentimes I find that kids in high school get so much pressure put on them to figure out what they're they wanna do for a job and a career, which would inform them what kinds of schools they're gonna look at and what they're gonna major in and all these things. And the thing is, you think about high school kids and they're still figuring out who they are. Let, I mean, some kids know from an early age and they are gungho, but lots of kids don't know. And so I think I was one of those kids, I always had an interest in nature and animals and you know, can go back to when I was a kid, kid.
And I started an environmental club in the neighborhood, which really just meant raking up leaves. So all of our parents were really perfectly happy to let us do that. But I always had an interest in those things. But I didn't think when I was in high school that was what I was gonna pursue for a career or for college. So I applied to colleges as an English and drama major and it turns out I don't have a talent for acting <laugh>, which I found out when I tried to audition for a play. And I'm good at English, but it wasn't super exciting for me. And the lucky thing is that I went to a liberal arts college in Connecticut. I went to Connecticut College and I took a zoology class as of just one of the general education requirements that I had to take. And it was just fascinating to actually be studying the science of animal biology.
And so I switched majors, but I switched majors knowing that I was interested in this, but I didn't know what I was going to do. And so then I tried a couple of different things. I worked out on a salt marsh and I did salt marsh research where I was walking in the salt marsh, getting cut up by the grasses and eaten alive by the mosquitoes and falling in super muddy slippery mud. I mean, oh gosh super stinky. And looking at teeny tiny, tiny little invertebrates. And then we take them back to the lab and we'd look at them under the microscope and we would have to identify, was it species A versus species B? And the only way to tell was to look at them under the microscope and count the number of segments on their antennae. And it was the difference between seven segments and 11 segments.
I mean, you know, was very, very detailed and you're hunched over a microscope. And it was fascinating, but it wasn't for me. And so then I was having a conversation with my grandmother who lives in New York City, and she said, well, I've got a friend who works at the Bronx Zoo. I could set up a conversation for you to have with him and maybe he can give you some advice cuz I don't know, maybe you could do that. And I didn't know what do that meant but I got this conversation going with as it turns out, her friend is a world renowned conservationist, George Sholler. And she had actually traveled with him to China back in 1980, I believe. My grandmother's Chinese. And so my grandmother and great-aunt went with him to help with translation and whatnot as he was working for the World Wildlife Conservation Society.
And they just kind of kept in touch. And so he was chatting with me and telling me about conservation work. And it sort of opened up all of these different ideas about for me that, oh my gosh, this is a career that working to save wildlife is something that people do. And he gave me really excellent advice, which was, if you want to get into conservation, you have to recognize that it's 99% dealing with people. And it's not about, I mean, it is about animals, but it is primarily about people because conservation is a human created problem. And you have the reason why there are issues between humans and wildlife is because humans need X, Y, or Z, and we're competing for resources with these wild creatures or resources being anything but oftentimes space. And anyway, so from there, I got an internship working at the Bronx Zoo, taking care of the animals there and in the mammal department finished up college and had a couple more internships in volunteer opportunities working at Mystic Aquarium and the World Bird Sanctuary, kind of just getting a sense for all the different sorts of things that might being a zoology major could entail working in a zoo or an aquarium.
And then went back to the Bronx Zoo after I graduated, worked there for a few more years, worked mostly with Southeast Asian rainforest animals, gorillas, and nocturnal animals. And then I came on vacation to Los Angeles. And when I went back to New York, I just thought, my goodness, I should move to LA <laugh>. It was so sunny and beautiful and gets us right. The sunshine just sucks us in. It really does. And so I moved to LA I didn't, I didn't have a job at the time, but I kind of wanted to switch a little bit to talking to guests, talking to the public about animals, because every time I would walk between a habitat at the Bronx Zoo, oftentimes zookeepers have a bucket of food or something like that. And you always get stopped and always people wanna ask questions about what are you about to feed or tell me about this animal.
And I loved doing that. I loved having the opportunity to tell these guests the different stories about the animals, and then help them understand the connection between our animals and the stories that they're telling about their wild counterparts raising awareness about the different conservation threats and whatnot. And so when I moved to Los Angeles, I was really looking for opportunities to get more into environmental education or wildlife education. And so I found myself in an organization doing just that where I was taking care of animals and then taking those animals to school programs or private events and things like that. And it was super fun. And then an opportunity to work, to be sort the founding member of a brand new living collections department came up. So the California Science Center in Los Angeles was building a whole new expansion to the museum. And that expansion was all about ecology.
So the interplay between living and non-living things in an ecosystem. And so to help illustrate those different scientific concepts there, there'd be some live animals. And the science center had always had some live animals, but this was going to be a much larger component of their operations. And so they needed a department to properly take care of those animals. And so I became the first member of that department, which meant that I wore all of the hats, which was simultaneously completely overwhelming and really, really exciting. So I wrote job descriptions for my boss and helped hire my boss. I was buying buckets and spoons for the staff who were gonna be taking care of the animals. I made sure we had all of the right permits and the licenses and kept track of how many animals do we have and where do we get them from, where have we sent them, et cetera.
And so I was there for 14 years and had some career progression through that. And ultimately for the last seven, well, not counting the last 10 months that I've been here at the San Diego Zoo for the last seven years, at the time I was at the Science Center, I was the director of husbandry. So overseeing the animal care side of things, and then went through that executive leadership program which was a program through the Association of Zoos and Aquariums which is a international accrediting body for zoos and aquariums to really ensure the highest gold standards for animal care, conservation, public education, et cetera. So went through that program and found myself here at the San Diego Zoo. So in many ways it's a lateral move. It's kind of the same job that I was doing at the California Science Center, but I went from having 21 staff members to having about 275 staff members.
Wow. Overseeing, what do we have? About 250 species at the Science Center to over 700 species here. And in many, many ways, it's a very, very similar role. The scope is bigger, but I really consider what, if I describe what my job is, it's about taking care of the people who take care of the animals. The staff who work here are just the most expert people. They're so smart and they're so good at what they do, and I just am here to help support them, make it easier for them to be the experts that they are.
Kate: So for us, lay people, can you kind of explain the roles that zoos play or that your work plays in terms of animal conservation? I feel like there's a lot I still don't understand about zoos, which zoos are having a positive impact, which are not.
Misha: Yes.
Kate: Can you help us understand that <laugh>?
Misha: Yes. It's a really common question that anybody who works in a zoo or aquarium might get. There's a lot of and there's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of sort misunderstanding. But I will say that for those folks who feel a little uncomfortable about what zoos do, it's because they wanna make sure that those animals are getting the best lives that they can have. And the great news is that's exactly what zoos and aquarium, what the professionals and zoos and aquariums want as well. We're just in the unique position to actually have a direct impact. And we have the schooling, the expertise, et cetera, the background to really ensure that those animals are experiencing great welfare. And we do scientific assessments to make sure of those things, to measure that.
I also think that sometimes we're battling the history of zoos. So the history of zoos goes back a very long time and really started as a way for very rich people to show off their wealth and goggle at goggle Google, Google, I don't know, <laugh> Google animals, something they're staring in awkward awe in awe, yeah. At these weird creatures that they had brought, that they had taken from some other place and stuck in their backyard basically, even if it was a giant backyard. But modern zoos modern, and I would say modern good zoos, there is a distinction between good zoos and bad zoos.
Bad zoos are often roadside collections that have animals in poor conditions for bad reasons. And the association that I mentioned before, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums is sort of the gold standard for ensuring that we're providing amazing care to our animals. Our guests are coming away having learned something. We have excellent, measurable evaluated education programs. We're actively contributing to conservation programs. We're actively contributing to academic knowledge about and scientific knowledge about these creatures. And that information can then be applied to the wild counterparts out in nature. We are really about connecting our guests, creating empathetic connections between our guests and our animals so that those conservation stories can really sink in. And the hope is that we're creating stewards, more stewards for wildlife conservation. And all of that said, the reason why we keep having to say these things and answer these questions so many times is because we do need to do better at telling our stories.
We need to tell, do better at telling both our conservation stories, which especially here in California, one of the most iconic conservation stories is a California Condor in the San Diego Zoo and the Los Angeles Zoo were part of bringing that species back from the brink of extinction. There were only 22 left in the wild and they were brought in to the zoos and we created a breeding program. This is all in partnership with the US Fish and Wildlife Service, and now there's over 500 Condors, and more than half of them are out soaring in the skies of California. So there's some really iconic conservation stories, but there are loads of slightly less, but still extremely successful conservation stories. Slightly less iconic, but still really, really inspiring. And then we also need to tell our animal care and welfare stories better. I think historically zoos have kind of shied away from telling those stories.
But I can say here at, I just mentioned how incredibly expert our staff are here at the San Diego Zoo I can say that we are leading a shift towards outcome-based husbandry and enriched experiences away from providing a single item or some, a one time thing for our animals to be enriched by. And instead looking at multimodal multisensory experiences that span days, weeks, months. We're looking at seasonality and really tying it to the animals' natural history, all with the intention and the outcomes that these animals are experiencing a wider range of natural behaviors. And <laugh> real, this is a very complicated answer, which is why it's hard to tell. But the other piece of it is that in an ideal world as much as I love the profession that I'm in, animals would be able to live in nature and be able to thrive in nature.
But unfortunately, humans have created all of these problems that make it really, really hard for, for many, many species to exist. And we're currently experiencing the sixth mass mass extinction. So there's a natural sort of extinction rate that occur that exists that's always there. But our current extinction rate is hundreds or even thousands of times higher than what that natural extinction rate is. And it's due to human causes. So the last mass extinction that probably everybody knows about was 65 million years ago. So when the age of dinosaurs ended because of the asteroid and the climate, that was the last mass extinction, and now we're experiencing another one. But it's caused by us. And so zoo, modern, good, accredited zoos are helping to, I wouldn't say that we're, some people think of us as arcs. I wouldn't say we're, that's, that's too simple of an answer. There are lots of different facets to what good modern accredited zoos are doing to try to help stem some of that extinction loss and the loss of all this unbelievable biodiversity.
Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay, we're back.
Kate: I have to just ask a question because you touched on two things that I think must be a really intense part of your job, which is the California Condor. What an amazing feat to bring them back from the edge of extinction. But then there's also so much doom and gloom in this conversation about conservation, and I think it goes hand in hand with climate change and just the human destruction of the planet. So what's the hardest, most challenging part of this job when you're feeling down, when you're looking at some of these stats and you're like, oh my God, are you able to, what do you do when you feel that way? Is there something that you remind yourself of that changes your perception? Do you take a break from the work for a beat or take an afternoon off? What is it like on those harder days?
Misha: Yeah, I mean, think it'd be pretty hard to be in this profession if you only focused on the doom and gloom. And when we talk about these different issues, we try not to present it that in such a way because it can be really, really disheartening. But sometimes days get hard for all different kinds of reasons. And then I take a bath, no <laugh>. Yeah,
Kate: Yes,
Misha: I do some sort of self care routine. Sometimes it's just taking a beat and reminding myself that the work that we're doing really does matter. We really are having an impact. And you can look at some of these incredible conservation stories to know that what we're doing is really, really is making a difference. I remember when I was a kid I would go on these hikes with my dad, and we lived in Connecticut and one of our favorite places to go hiking was this state park called Sleeping Giant. And it was like from far away, kinda looked like a big person lying down, and we'd always hike up to the guys' nose. And anyway it was a really cool place. And I remember one time seeing an osprey, which is a bird of prey, and at the time they're much more common now. But at the time, it was a really rare thing to see an osprey.
And I remember my dad told me to be quiet, and he's like, the more the quieter you are, the more you'll see. And that was probably just to keep me quiet, that, I mean, it is true, the quieter you are, the more nature and critters you'll see. But he's probably trying to just keep me from jibber jabbering. And we were sitting there really quietly watching this incredibly beautiful bird. It was perched up in the tree, it had captured it, it caught a fish and was eating this fish. And I know how I knew at the time, even how it special it was to see that animal. And now this is 40 years late, well, not quite 40 years but now I see Osprey not all over the place, but it's not rare to see an Osprey. And that is due to all of this different conservation work. It's not just zoos are doing it, right. It's all these different partnerships and different organizations that are doing this work, but the work matters and it does make a difference. And so I remind myself of those sorts of stories and those sorts of achievements and remember to just take care of myself. <laugh>.
Doree: Misha, I'm wondering as you're talking, I know you are a board member of the Minorities in Aquarium and Zoo Sciences, and I'm wondering, how do you make sure that zoos and science centers and other places like this remain or become more accessible to diverse populations?
Misha: I almost feel like that's a bigger question <laugh>, but No, it's really important. I'm glad to have the opportunity to chat a little bit about that. There has been a lot of talk around increasing the diversity of our workforces, especially in the sciences, especially in animal care positions within the Zoo, zoo, and aquarium world for decades. But for better or worse, the sort of racial and reckoning that happened after George Floyd was murdered, I think really spurred a lot of people to take meaningful action. And actually, part of that executive leadership program that I was in at that time we had our whole cohort and then we split into two groups. And the group that I was in focused on a project that tried to remove some of the perceived barriers that Zoo Aquarium professionals and leaders especially might have seen as to just get started. Just do something.
Just look at your job descriptions, look at your internal culture, look at fill in the blank. Just do something because something is better than nothing. And no matter where you're starting from, we all have something more we can do. Whether you're really, you've been doing this work for a really long time and you're really advanced in your thinking and your systems and whatnot there's still more you can do. And so that work, that project was happening at the same time that two groups in particular, they formed around that time in the zoo and aquarium world. One was MAZS Minorities in Aquarium and Zoo Sciences, and the other was the Association of Minority Zoo and Aquarium Professionals. And so they're two different organizations that were a little bit like grassroots, grassroots organizing individual staff members who came together and created these organizations. So MZAP is a lot about connecting, creating a network to connect minorities in these professions.
And there's sort of a mentor program to connect younger or early career professionals with folks who look like them in the profession and can understand because of their own lived experiences, what the person might be experiencing. And in my eyes it is a little bit broader because it is beyond just zoos and aquariums, but it is also a little bit more focused in that it's specifically about scientific careers. So whereas MZAP is if you're in marketing or education or film, all of the different functions that are in zoos and aquariums and you identify as a minority, then MZAP might be best for you. But MAZS is also really great for those of us who are in science related careers having to do with zoos and aquariums. And so MAZS is able to raise money. The main way that we help support minorities in this profession is by raising money to help fund opportunities to send them to conferences or professional development courses or what have you.
And so that has been really wonderful to be a part of, well, both of those groups, but to sit on the board of MAZS and really help steer the direction that we're going and create some of the professional development opportunities that we offer. So I just finished service, a six year service of the AZA, the Association of Zoos and Aquariums Professional Development Committee. So I was the chair of that committee. And so now I'm taking that experience that I had from AZA with the professional development committee and applying it to the Professional Development committee for MAZS. Those are what two different organizations are doing.
Kate: that's amazing.
Misha: But as a community though, I'll say, I think there's a lot of opportunity and a lot of work, work that we need to do, but I think that people are motivated and there are so many resources out there that have be they've, they've always been there, but I think people are more aware of them now. So
Kate: I feel like I'm never gonna get to ask somebody in your position this question again. What's the coolest animal slash your favorite animal?
Misha: Okay. So I really don't know how to answer this question except for, I realized probably seven years ago or so that birds in general, I have a tendency to have affinity for birds, but I can't tell you what bird in particular. I think raptors are really, really cool. And of the raptors, I think Falcons and owls maybe, but man, it's really hard. And then I start to learn about other types of birds, and I think they're really fascinating. But then I think about loris's, they're really cool and Kopi are neat. And I mean, there's so many animals that are so fascinating and there's so much we can learn from them. And it just makes me marvel at the world. All of these different incredible animals just gives me such an appreciation for the natural world. So it's really hard to pick one <laugh>.
Kate: But combined, they're all pretty amazing. I mean, I feel like that's a very, we can all agree.
Misha: In fact, I was challenging myself to come up with a reason to like mosquitoes at one point.
Kate: Did you find one?
Misha: Well, a lot of animals eat them. And without mosquitoes, these animals wouldn't have food. <laugh>,
Kate: There we go.
Misha: That was the only thing I could come up with, cuz otherwise they're like a major disease spreader and they make me itchy. But the food webs rely on them, so Okay, <laugh>,
Kate: We have to let them stay.
Misha: Yeah,
Doree: I mean, they're everywhere in Los Angeles now.
Misha: Oh, no.
Doree: Yeah. Well, Misha, this was so fun to get to talk to you. I hope to get to the San Diego Zoo at some point soon. My son is a big animal lover, so he always loves going to the zoo.
Misha: Oh, it's such a fun place to go. When you were saying before too, when you're having a hard day and what do you do? Another thing to do here is just go for a walk. You just go for a walk. And this zoo is also an incredible botanical garden. I think we actually have way more plants than we have animals from a species perspective and number of specimens. And our horticulture team is just astounding. They have all these plants, GIS tagged so they can keep track of them. But you just go for a walk around the zoo and it's like, Ugh, your worries just melt away. <laugh>. Ugh.
Doree: My son is also obsessed with plants, so it sounds like we're definitely gonna have to,
Kate: You gotta go to the zoo.
Misha: Come by. Yes. Come visit <laugh>.
Doree: Misha, where can our listeners find you? Are you on social media? Where can I follow along with you and the zoo and et cetera?
Misha: Sure. I mean, I think probably the best place to point people to for me is probably LinkedIn. And so my last name is M, or my name is M I S H A. And then my last name is B O D Y. And so it's just linkedin.com/mishabody, I think. I don't know, something like that. But I'm also probably, there's only one Misha Body out there, so it's probably not too hard to Google me. That's probably the easiest place to find me on social media things. And then for the zoo, I would say go to the a SanDiegoZoowildlifealliance.org. Did I get that right? Or it might be just SDZWA. sandiegozoowildlifealliance.org. And that is our full organization, which runs both the zoo and the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, which is up the street like 30 miles in Escondido as well as all of our conservation field programs.
Doree: Very cool.
Misha: That's a big organization.
Doree: <laugh>. Well, thank you again. Thank
Kate: You, Micha.
Misha: Absolutely. Thank you.
Kate: I really, really loved getting to talk to her. You know? You know what also I think is so unique about her journey. She has the job that we all wanted as children.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: Like Misha and people in her field, and then also marine biologists. We all thought we were gonna be marine biologists, not really knowing what that meant.
Doree: My friend Sarah, I remember my friend Sarah was the first one who told me she wanted to be a marine biologist and she wanted to visit the Galapagos Islands, and I had never heard of the Galapagos Islands. And then I was like, that sounds cool. It was just, but I remember that. So funny you say that. I remember that so distinctly. I really had no idea what that meant. And then she was so passionate about it. She's not a marine biologist today, sadly.
Kate: I really admire the people who are, I just think it's so cool. Well, Doree, look, we really talked about this kind of general fitness journey that you have been on up top, which you have named Intuitive exercising, which I love. And that was your intention last week to continue your focus on it, which I don't wanna speak out of turn here, but it sounds like you did it.
Doree: Yeah, I mean, I think I did. It's funny, I thought I had found a class in my gym that I really liked, and it was a strength class. And then the last one I went to, I realized this instructor's music is so bad.
Kate: Oh no. Was it all jusy Hootie and the Blowfish?
Doree: No, it was, I can't even know what the word industrial. It was
Kate: Like, oh, house music
Doree: Kind of. Yeah, but heavy. Oh, we're gonna be pumping iron kind of thing. And I was like, what is this? This is not my vibe right now. Actually, a couple people walked out of the class. I wonder if it was cause of the music. One person walked out three minutes in and then one person left 15 minutes before the end. But I feel like that's kinda rare. So I don't know. So I'm gonna try a couple of different classes this week, because it's a bummer though, because I actually think the exercises in this class are good. I just don't think she's a great instructor and her music is tragic, but I feel like it's also rude as a class goer to be like, have you thought about changing your music?
Kate: Yeah. I mean, guess you. Yes. It's like when people <laugh>. Yeah. I don't know if it's rude. I think you can just say, I love your class, but sometimes the music is, is too intense for me or something.
Doree: Well, That's a good way of framing it, Kate. See, you're so good at this. Yeah. So I'm gonna continue on this intuitive exercise journey. It's just been, it's been fun. And I'm not as sore as I was last week after the class, so that was fun. Anyway, so this week, Kate, this intention requires a bit of backstory. My husband's car has been in the shop for three weeks and will be in the shop for the foreseeable future. And we didn't rent another car. We were just, we don't really need two cars. And the fact is, we don't really need two cars. We do. There's some days where it's like, oh, we could use another car, but by and large it's fine. And so my intention this week is to think more creatively about my transportation in general, and even when his car gets back from the shop, what can I take from what I've been doing and apply it to the rest of my life? Because I am really trying to think about my carbon footprint and all that kind of stuff.
Kate: Okay. All right, Doree, I like this. Do you think you could ever be a one car family?
Doree: I do. I do because partly because we live in a very walkable part of LA So, I walk my son to school, I can walk to the grocery store, I can walk to the coffee shop, I can walk to the gym. There's a lot I can walk to, which is not the case in a lot of Los Angeles. So number one. Number two is I have a good friend who lives down the street who lends me her car whenever I need it.
Kate: Oh, well there you go.
Doree: Which is also, I will say, I feel like this should be more of a thing when I feel Lyft and Uber corrupted the word ride share, but it's like car share should be more of a thing. People should be sharing cars more because my car sits when Matt and I aren't sharing a car. My car sits in the driveway a lot, but someone else could be using it and then not have to get their own car. You know what I mean? So
Kate: Very good point. Yes.
Doree: I think there is, that's also something that I'm just thinking about. At first I was like, well that sounds silly to say, well, I could just borrow my friend's car, but they're like, actually, no, it's not silly to say I could just borrow my friend's car. That that should be what people do. So I think that's great.
Kate: That's, that's a very good point, Doree. I like this.
Doree: Well, thank you Kate. So I don't know I if we will realistically ever be a one car family, but I think I'm seeing how it could be possible especially since Matt's not really working outside of the house right now. If he was gone, were gone from 6:00 AM to 8:00 PM when he was working on set, I don't actually think it would be realistic unless he did not drive to work anyway. Kate
Kate: <affirmative>,
Doree: How did your self reflection go?
Kate: Oh, I'm still reflecting. I'm sure this is all tied into old Kate, just having a lot of questions about life.
Doree: Yeah, I mean I think it's interesting that you put this as your intention and then you had this whole very reflective experience with the marathon.
Kate: Maybe that is the universe. That is what the universe is doing. For me, just putting things, things in my way to think about, I dunno, still thinking about it, but this week I've got a very basic intention, which is to drink more tea.
Doree: Ooh,
Kate: It's cold now. Here in LA, drinking too much coffee kind of gives me heartburn. But today I had some Jasmine green tea and I was like, oh yeah, I'm back, back on the tea train. So
Doree: I love this.
Kate: I like tea. I like an herbal tea. I like a bedtime tea. I like a black tea. So, just gonna dip back into tea. And you know what, also I'm happy to dip into tea, the gossip kind too, as part of my intention. So if anyone has any tea they wanna share, oh gosh, week, for this week let me know. All right, well listen, Doree, it's been fun. And now it's time to say that Forever35 is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. And Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is ACAST. And we thank you for listening. Have a great day. Bye.