Episode 239: The Ghosts of Body Narratives with Nora McInerny

“Having my value as a person so tied to extrinsic forces that are largely out of my control, like, no wonder I have been depressed and anxious for most of my life.”

- Nora McInerny

Kate and Doree discuss a not-so-ordinary day in the suburbs before inviting beloved friend of the pod Nora McInerny to talk about her new book Bad Vibes Only, the kind of vanity that is shallow versus the kind that is acceptable, and how the ghost of body narratives still haunt her.  

CW: This episode contains discussion of eating disorders, weight and body image.

Photo Credit: Chelsey Werth

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Transcript

 

Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer.

Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir.

Kate: And we are not experts.

Doree: We're not, but we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums

Kate: And y'all can visit our website at Forever 35 podcast for.com. Let's put that in there.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show fall on Twitter forever 35 pod or Instagram at Forever 35 podcast. And you can join the forever 35 Facebook group where the password is serums.

Doree: You can also shop our fa prods at shop my.us/forever 35. Actually, that's a good distinction between what is on Shop my versus what's on the website. The website is everything we mention. Sometimes it's stuff that we're met on

Kate: <affirmative>. That's exactly right. We like a guest mentions it,

Doree: Whereas the shop my shelf stuff is like stuff we're very into. So it's a good distinction. Anyway, you can also sign up for a newsletter at February 35 podcast.com/newsletter. You can call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at forever 35 podcast gmail.com. Just making one more plug. As Kate mentioned in the last episode for our Giving circle, we are so closed to our goal. Oh my God.

Kate: <laugh>

Doree: Also, election day is right around the old corner, so,

Kate: Oh boy.

Doree: Anything you can donate will help.

Kate: I just, that's all the anxiety of election day with us again, <affirmative>.

Doree: Yeah, and I mean here in California at least, it's like the anxiety of election month because we have so many mail-in ballots that what happens on election day is it has almost no bearing on the final. I mean it has bearing, but it's like you cannot go by the election day results because there's so many mail-in ballots that need to be tabulated.

Kate: Very true. And we've got some big races happening here that are big <laugh>. Like it's a lot. And I know you're very involved. You're getting really involved in your hyperlocal politics. I mean, I am as well but you've hosted a fundraiser. We're getting into it. <affirmative>. We want some change around here.

Doree: Yeah, we're doing it. So Kate, how's it, how's it going over there?

Kate: Oh my goodness. I've just quickly Doree, I have just had a morning. I've had a morning. I thought I was gonna be on top of things. I had to sign my kids up for something and I did that. And then I had to, I ran an errand really early and I was like, I am on top of the game. And then I went to go pick up my dog out of the yard to go take her to dog daycare and she was holding a bird in her mouth. And that's when the day just took a turn and I became a,

Doree: Okay,

Kate: An animal rescuer my dogs. There have been times where, I don't know if this bird was injured already, but this is not the first time that one of my dogs has found a bird and put it and chomped it and trotted around with glee. The joy that my dog had at having this bird, it was palpable. I wanted to be like, You're murdering this. But she looked so happy because all her instinctive urges were being satisfied. So then I had to, the bird did not make it. I had to take the bird to the local animal shelter because they were going to humanely it because it was really not in great shape. But then the bird passed. So that was my morning dealing with an injured bird. And then I was praying for the bird and feeling emotional about the bird and then having to be kind to my rage of the dogs cuz the dogs don't know any better because they're animal, all that. Anyone who's dealt with one of their pets bringing in an animal knows what I'm talking about. My cat did it. It's just life. This is life. They're just doing what they are built to do the same way we do. I eat meat

Doree: <affirmative>,

Kate: But it's always harrowing when there's a very injured animal and your animal's responsible.

Doree: Yeah, that's a lot <laugh> for you to deal with.

Kate: It was so, it was just so like, ugh, really. And then I'm putting on rubber gloves and creating a sanctuary for this little tiny baby support

Doree: Bird. Oh my God,

Kate: That was poor bird. I don't know. So anyway, that it was just another day in the life of a person living in the suburbs. Just another day in the life.

Doree: Just another day in the life.

Kate: Yeah. Thankfully we've got a guest who's gonna really take it away today. It'll be a dare. I say

Doree: We had a classic guest on today. This guest has been on the show as a guest. They've also co-hosted the podcast. They're just like, they're such a friend of Forever 35. I can't even say enough about this guest.

Kate: The guest today is a mega friend of the pod and Nora Magner.

Doree: Woo woo woo.

Kate: So excited. Okay. Just to give you, if you're not familiar with Nora, you're in for a real treat. But I bet you are. She's the host of the podcast. Terrible. Thanks for asking the author of the memoirs. It's okay to laugh. Crying is cool too. No happy endings. And the Hot Young Widows Club. Lessons on Survival from the front lines of grief. And her new book, Bad Vibes Only comes out on October 11th, which means it's already out by the time you are listening to this. Yes, it is out yesterday out right now. She's also the founder of the non-profit organization Still Kickin, which was inspired by a t-shirt, her late husband Aaron War when he had a seizure that later revealed his brain cancer. And Nora also gave a Ted talk about living with grief. She lives in Phoenix with her husband Matthew and their kids and their dogs.

And her new book is just wonderful. It's so funny and insightful and moving. And I also just did wanna plug that Nora is on tour. She is on the book tour. Yes. So you can go see her in a variety of places and if you're in and living in these places, you should go see her. She's amazing to see. Live. October 15th in Philly. October 16th in New York. October 17th in dc, 18th in Boston. Beantown show up. October 19th, Toronto, 21st Chicago and October 22nd. St. Paul, Minnesota, her hometown. So catch her on tour. Tell her we say hi. I do wanna give just a brief content warning that we do talk, get talk about eating disorders and disordered eating in this conversation. So just please a heads up for that. And yeah, please enjoy our conversation with our dear friend, Nora. Well, we are back with former Forever 35 Midwestern correspondent. Is that how we refer to you? Yes. Was it the Midwest? Yes. Is Minnesota is the Midwest. Yes. But she has since relocated to the Southwest and so we're proud to say that your new title, Nora McNerney, is her 35 correspondent of the southwest

Nora McInerny: Of the Southwest. I've been waiting for this call. I've been waiting for this call. Cause there are many of us living in a dry desert climate thirst, perpetually thirsty <laugh>. Perpetually crusty.

Kate: What a switch. Switch from the hearty winters of the north to the Hardy Desert. But I mean, we'll talk about how this has impacted your skincare practice. Probably the most important thing we're gonna talk about today,

Nora McInerny: <affirmative>. <affirmative>. Yeah. I love extremes. I love extremes. I was like, what climate can I live in that could threaten my wellbeing at any time? <laugh>, I found it

Kate: So happy for you. But most importantly, we're happy for us to have you back on the show in honor of your next book, Bad Vibes Only, which is out this week. Congratulations.

Nora McInerny: Thank you. Thank you. You all know what it's like <laugh>. It just pushes you

Doree: Down, down. We sure do.

Nora McInerny: A rabbit hole of Sure do. Just self-hatred. It's great. It does.

Kate: It does. It's so strange having to promote a thing you made. And I think in your case you've written another incredibly personal, vulnerable, hilarious book. So it's just that there's like that extra layer of it.

Nora McInerny: Yeah. I'm like, what if I wrote a book because this is the last book like this. And if you hear me,

Kate: I don't know

Nora McInerny: If you hear even a whisper, if you get a text message, if you see an Instagram story that even implies that I'm writing another deeply personal <laugh> book. I want you to

Doree: No, I have the same, I had the exact same re response. Kate is also responsible for the same thing with me. Yep. I will never write another memoir.

Nora McInerny: I will if I even Doree, if I see a screen capture of a notebook that looks like you're even thinking I'll get on a plane. It's a 45 minute flight for being.

Doree: Oh, thank you. I

Nora McInerny: Appreciate, I'll intervene. Pick up Kate on the way. Okay. Into it. We'll roll up.

Doree: Okay. Yep.

Nora McInerny: <affirmative> like Henry, you know what? For a second,

Doree: I will do the same for you.

Nora McInerny: Thank you <laugh>. Thank you.

Doree: You're so welcome. Now actually, before Will you usually open our guest conversations by asking about a self-care practice. But since we are on this topic, could we just discuss briefly, if you will, what was it about this book that has made you swear off any sort of personal memoir type book in the future?

Nora McInerny: Yeah. Oh, I think it's just, well one, right? I wrote this book in part during one of the worst years, the worst year of my life since 2014 which is saying something cuz nobody died. So to be a contender, it really had to be a be a new kind of roughness. And it was all things that I'm pretty much incapable of writing about because it would violate somebody else's right to their own story. And

There is always the sense that the first time I heard this was Danny Shapiro, the author Danny Shapiro quoting a different writer. So forgive me for not knowing the origin of this variation on a quote of a theme that I'm going to share. But basically this person had told Danny who told me, and now I'm telling you, game of telephone in every story, what happens on your side of the door is yours. What happens on their side is theirs. And I believe that. And also I do think that might have been more true in the nineties when we were writing memoir in the two thousands before everyone was so easily findable before there was such a thin layer of privacy already <affirmative>. And I think about that, not even just in the context of our children who have their own private lives, but have parents who are very easily googleable, but anybody who's even tangentially connected to us.

So for me I think that is one of the reasons why this will be my last very personal book. And also because there's so many other threads that I wanna pull on the world around us. And part of making my show and the show that you make is you get into other people's lives, you get into other people's stories. And that's really exciting to me. And I do think, and I have thought this every time, but I feel like if this is the last book that I ever get to write, I will feel good about it. I love this book. I love where it talking out. I love this book too. Even though that the process of writing it, how many times do you fall down the pit of abject despair when you're writing anything where you're like, I should, you know what? Let's drag it to the trash. Let's just

Kate: <laugh>. Well, I think it's interesting you say this because I just finished your book last night and readers I'm sure will be clamoring for it and reading it and of book to me, I was like, Ah, look at this. Sage taking me on this journey of totally identity and self-discovery, kind of middle life, realiz,

Nora McInerny: Witty and yeah,

Kate: None of that comes out. It doesn't,

Nora McInerny: Nor yeah, it doesn't read

Kate: This book destroyed you <laugh>. No. If anything I was like, wow, she's got it all figured out. Now.

Nora McInerny: I do think everybody has a story to tell. I do think excavating it is not for everybody. It is just not for everybody. And I wanted such a good way of putting it. And I wanted so badly for this book to not be memoir for that reason and to be an essay collection. So I did not have to, even though I just said it did destroy me, it was also the circumstances around it that were so depleting and destructive. But I did not want to have to say, this book is about my husband dying. This book is about meeting my second husband after my first husband died. I wanted to be able to pull from a broader range of life than just picking my own scabs.

Kate: Well, let's get into it a little bit because you start off, I mean the first essay, it hurts to be beautiful Wooey Baby. You just let listeners nor it just gets into it right away. And you tell the story, You talk about why you like injectables, but then you tell the story about how you go and get it once and you experience facial paralysis, <laugh>. And it's essentially not in a good way. No. Yeah. Not in the way that you intended with your money, but in the bad way. And I guess I think you're kind of exploring this idea of at what cost and also I like this and how do we reconcile that within the context of everything else we know to be true? Yes. And how do we as intersectional feminists reconcile our participation in the beauty industrial complex? And I don't, And

Nora McInerny: What is the line and where do we cross it? Yes. Which is very interesting to me because I posted a thing on TikTok and one thing that I love, and I also just frightens me about TikTok and I think this new version of social media is it was a simpler time 10 years ago, and there was one algorithm, <laugh>, and it was like, you're on Facebook, cool. Did you see that cat video? And you'd be like, I know exactly what video you're talking about <affirmative>. I know what this week's cat video is <affirmative>. Yeah, I saw it too. And now you're just sort of pulled out of your own world and dropped into somebody without context. And I had posted some video and someone had commented and said, You're 39, drop the skin care routine. And first of all, people who are under 30 believe that being 39, you should look like the fucking crypt keeper

Kate: <affirmative>. They're

Nora McInerny: <affirmative>. You're telling me that you don't have spiders crawling out of your eye holes, You're not <laugh>, you don't stink of rotting flesh. Okay. I cannot believe it. What do you do? What is the secret? And I said essentially the secret is money because it is right. I Have you ever had clear and brilliant laser?

Kate: No, but

Nora McInerny: I am telling you I love this thing. I love this thing. I could not tell you how it works people. Someone was like, Is it something laser? How would I know? Am I a scientist? I have no idea. <laugh>. I do not know. Am I a esthetician? No, I'm a consumer. I was sold this. Okay, I was sold this and did I buy it? Yes, I get it once a quarter and oh, it zaps you and you look like you have a sunburn. You feel like you just took something outta the avenue and you lean over the oven and it's like hot. Just like that hot feeling. It doesn't go away for 24 hours. The next day your skin looks fine, but it feels like sandpaper. Two weeks later you are glowing. You are glowing. It is so wonderful. I get HydraFacials afterwards, after it's healed.

Kate: So you get a facial for the facial.

Nora McInerny: You get a facial for the facial. Okay. Your facial gets a facial

Kate: Disc court, which is disc sport. What's it called? The other Botox.

Nora McInerny: It's like diet Botox. Again, a more natural looking Botox. I haven't gotten it in six months cuz you put too much in last time. And I seriously look at this, I already have very limited that this is six months later <laugh> like look at me being surprised.

Kate: Wow. Eyeball.

Nora McInerny: Nora has to do so much work.

Kate: <laugh> raising her brows. But it's minimal. There's minimal raise her <laugh>, her lids, her eyelids are doing all the work.

Nora McInerny: Yes, the lids have to do all the work. And I do all of this in one in part because it's time to myself. That's what I've realized. It is time to myself. I am laying under a weighted blanket while someone attends to me. And there is nothing required of me at all, except you just lay there, which feels so nice. And I'm doing it in part because it does sort of create this homeostasis. I'm not trying to pass for 25. I'm not even trying to pass for 30. I'm not trying to do any of that but it, there's no denying that I am trying to clinging to something. I'm trying to clinging to something the same way I was trying to strive for something when I bought a water bra when I was 16 and it water

Kate: Bras. Oh, remember

Nora McInerny: Those?

Doree: Never even heard of that.

Kate: Okay, well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right, we are back.

Doree: Nora, if this is reminding me of a listener who once wrote into us, because this is a conversation that I think has been ongoing on our podcast for a while, and something they said really resonated with me, which is it is we don't human to not wanna look in the mirror and see yourself decaying. Yes. It's human to want to keep looking yourself. And I get that I'm guilty of it too, or guilty. I feel like there is a lot of demonization of people for wanting to keep looking themselves.

Nora McInerny: Absolutely.

Doree: And I don't have the answer. I think there is something to be said for, of course, aging everybody ages that your skin changes, your face changes, everything changes. But that's also kind of scary. It makes you confront your own mortality on a daily basis. And maybe given all the shit that's going on in the world, we don't wanna be constantly confronted with our own mortality. I

Nora McInerny: Don't know. And things just a thought I a hundred percent. I feel all of that. I feel all of that. And it is, so to your listener's point, it is so jarring, and this is something I didn't understand at 25 when my boss was getting these crazy facial peels and her skin would be coming off in layers. And I remember she was in her fifties and I was like, God, get a fucking life lady. What I didn't understand at 25 with all of the collagen in the world is it is jarring to look at yourself and know that however you feel inside. And I am locked in at I would say 27 years old Max emotionally <laugh>, right? To look at the mirror and be like, Oh wait, that is that me, That can't be me. And I think about that when I think about my mom or my grandmother. And those standards change too. And it is also about a different kind of fitting in or a different kind of control where you pass through some magic portal and now you are a woman of a certain age and you have to dress this specific way and you have to look this specific way, whether or not that even reflects who you are. Didn't every grandmother in the eighties look exactly like a golden girl? What was that about?

Kate: I had a grandmother who didn't, had a grandmother who looked kind of like, No. Well, I had one who had a golden girl vibe and then I had a real kind of, my grandmother was ahead of her time. She was an artist and I don't even know how to describe her other worldly. She wore a white turtleneck and khakis and kids every day. She had a uniform. She just was a different of a different breed. But yes, but the rest of them. But yes, I do know what you mean. There was an army of golden girl grandmothers marching

Nora McInerny: Around, getting your hair set, wearing certain, wearing monochromatic pants, outfits,

Kate: <affirmative>, <affirmative>, little joggers.

Nora McInerny: Yeah, I don't know. I find it all strange. I find it all fascinating. I really do. I really find it all fascinating and especially the way that we have a hierarchy of the kind of beauty that is acceptable, the kind of vanity that is acceptable, the kind of vanity that is shallow and the kind of vanity that's celebrated.

Kate: Well, and you talk a lot in your book. I mean, read the last chapter of your book, it really got me a real gut punch. And you're talking about, as a kid, about wanting to be accepted into the gifted program at your school. And then you get in and it's just a farce and just how we are from a young age separating and validating and all this stuff and what it does to our psyche for your life. You have been on this quest of achievement and perfection. I relate to a lot of that and this idea of who are we if we let go of those things because it's really scary to, I don't even know how to let go of those things sometimes. And I don't know necessarily if you feel like you have the answer, but I would just love to hear more about, as you were writing this, do you feel like you are working on shedding those kind of parts of your identity, transitioning out of them or at least loving them or accepting them? Where do you stand with that?

Nora McInerny: Oh, still an ongoing process, but I think it's chapter seven that starts with me going to meet a new therapist and just sitting Allen. Allen, not his real name, but just seems like he could be an Allen and sitting in his office and him asking why I'm there and I can't, I can't get anything out other than sobbing and telling him, Well, I guess I just fucking hate myself <laugh>. Like I just hate myself <laugh>. I just hate literally everything about me. I hate just truly doubt. I just hate myself. I hate myself. I hate every single thing about me and the way I behave and what I'm doing at all that I just hate myself. And he's like, Okay, okay. Is there more to say? I was like, Yeah, I just, just 50 minutes till little, they subtly look at the clock behind you and then they stand up in the universal sign for get the fuck out.

Kate: Well this is over,

Nora McInerny: Which I love. And maybe we all learn to practice that when someone is about to overstay their welcome, the hands on the knees,

Kate: <affirmative>, time

Nora McInerny: To go. Getting up, getting up. And that was, I would say that that therapy session starting that work started in 20 20, 20 21 and is still ongoing. And I have for the past, oh, I don't know, 33 years, had my being and my doing linked so tightly together. Oh boy. That every single day I have only been as good as my last gold star as the last interaction. If the last interaction I have with somebody is an unkind email in my inbox because the podcast that I make has too much music or not enough or <laugh>, I mispronounced a word or something than I am an absolute piece of garbage. And if the last interaction I have is a lovely email or a call like this, then I am okay. I am good. And having my value as a person. So tied to extrinsic forces that are largely out of my control. No wonder I've been depressed and anxious for most of my life. I had almost nothing inside of me that believed that I was good for just existing

Kate: Nora. That's really heavy.

Nora McInerny: And if anyone else said that, I'd be like, Are you crazy, Kate? You're so wonderful. Doree, you're so wonderful. Done to your, I hold my children's faces in my hands and I'm like, Oh man, I love you. You're so good. I don't care what you do. Da da. Like stab me right now. I'd still love you. And one of them, he's got that sort of rage, <laugh>, okay, today I didn't make his new toast quick enough. And he said, You deserve to die so

Kate: Little babe. Babe. Yeah. Oh wow. He's okay.

Nora McInerny: Not

Kate: You left him in that. What's the

Nora McInerny: Opposite? It's

Kate: Truly which Nora addresses in the book. I know. Which that also, that chapter also destroyed me.

Nora McInerny: Yeah, yeah.

Kate: In the conversation that you have with Alan in your book, he's like, Who would you be if you weren't, do these things? And you just kind of keep listing things that you would do. And he keeps circling. Yeah, exactly. Who would you be? So how have you started to cultivate, oh, self compassion for yourself so that you're getting these good feelings or have you, so that you're getting your compassion, your cup is being filled on its own without the external. Is it

Nora McInerny: Possible yet? Oh, it is possible. One of the assignments that I was given was to find a good thing, just a good thing that is not that somebody else did or something good that I did, but just a naturally good thing to notice when I felt good and to even say it out loud. So I think that's presence. I think that's technically mindfulness, but not in the way that feels like a cage. Truly <affirmative>. Whenever for a long time I was trying to meta meditate and it felt like climbing inside of a dog kennel. I could not do it. I was like, I don't wanna observe my thoughts. I really, really don't. But part of that has been letting things fall away letting things not happen saying no to things. I had not said no, since Aaron died, I had not said no to a single thing.

I'm asked to do something. It is not an opportunity. It is an obligation. It is an absolute obligation. And I stepped back from two things that had become a major part of my identity and one being the hot young Widows club and one being still kickin, which was this organization that I started after Aaron died. And it had become so many things. It had been really struggling since the beginning of the pandemic. And it was basically on life support. And I just felt so much that those two organizations had done all that they could do, that they had gone as far as they could go. And every part of me was like, You have to stop doing this. You have to stop. That was one of the major parts of that conversation with Allen that I didn't explicitly write in the book, but was a huge part of it.

If I don't keep these two organizations where people that I know and love work where thousands of people are there and present and in some ways relying on me for things that by the way, I realized through therapy I was in no way qualified to do who would I be, be without them. And I let them go. And it was horrible. And it was horrible <laugh>. And it was horrible. And it stings a lot less now than it did in the months after. But Alan was right. I am literally me. And there are people who are no longer in my life. There are people who are still in my life. There are people who are like, Thank you best wishes. We'll take the hot young widows club from here. And now it's called Club with. And they're coming down to Arizona in a week and taking a vacation all together. And I'm so excited for them. And there are people who will hate my guts forever. And I'm still me no matter what. I am still me and I'm still working on it. Right? I'm still working on it. I could still get rocked but not wrecked from an interaction with somebody had a really weird interaction with a PTA mom, was it? And it rocked me. We've all been there. Didn't wreck me. <laugh>. Okay, rocked but not wrecked is a, I love goal. Rocked but not wrecked. Rocked but not wrecked. Yeah. Yeah.

Doree: Rocked. Well, right. Because it's like, it's probably unrealistic to expect that all of this stuff is just gonna roll right off of us.

Nora McInerny: Right. But it

Doree: Maybe we can try to deal with it in a different way than perhaps we, we have been conditioned to. Which gets me to a question about one of the chapters in your book, Your book sorry, the chapter about where you go to Weight Watchers as a team, which I also did, and I feel like I know so many people who did. And as you write, it really was this gateway to an eating disorder. And it just made me think about all the body bullshit we internalized as teenagers and young adults. And I'm wondering where you are with all of that now and how much the ghost of these body narratives still kind of haunts you.

Nora McInerny: Yeah, that's a good thing. Ghost of body narratives. The ghost of body narratives

Doree: Just came up with that.

Nora McInerny: Oh man. Oh man. Oh man, I can at least I feel like now at least I can identify it. But I couldn't have identified it. I went chew Weight Watchers and I was a absolutely still straight sized six foot tall teenager. Teenager surrounded by ghost of my future possibly, which is women in their thirties, women in their forties obsessing over their appearance, obsessing over what they ate and when they ate it. And I know that that program has been helpful for many people and harmful to many people, just so many things in this world. But it did. It taught me restriction, it taught me it sort of sent me down this path that it was al already probably predisposed to and a new kind of addiction, which was control and not eating and deprivation and all of that. And now at least I can identify that, right?

But I couldn't for a long time. For a long time I could not identify that. And I would of skate by that in different kinds of therapy and be like, Yeah, I mean for a couple years did I throw up all of my meals? Yes. But I wasn't like some girls. Some girls were really, really bad. And for a long time, did I survive on 200 calories a day while also going to the gym and burning off at least 400? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But I wasn't like some girls, I wasn't as bad as some girls. I wasn't. And then did I become the kind of adult who got a Fitbit and could monitor and track how many steps I took and how many calories I burned? And now at the very least, I am not quantifying anything. I am not quantifying anything. But I found other more acceptable ways to hide that same obsession. And I will also say I am not yet body positive for myself. I can look at any other person to be a gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Tbd. Tbd. My body changed it a lot since 2020. And it is still a process. It really is.

Kate: I had that Weight Watchers experience as well full led to full blown disordered eating issues. And also it's how I channeled my grief. Instead of grieving, I just channeled on into controlling my body. And that was a whole, I, I no have to really look at that person and have a lot of self-love and understanding because we are in a wheel <laugh>, what's it called? A mouse hamster wheel. Not of our own choosing. We are all in this yes. Fucking yeah. Diet culture, body image nightmare. And I don't think, it's not an individual's fault. And Doree, actually, this kind of, I think leads to this question that you had written down here, kind of talking about how either we're good or we're bad <affirmative> and figuring out how to really love ourselves through that. And our past selves, I don't know, I'm rambling, but Well,

Doree: It's, so much of it starts with, like you said, Kate, so much of it starts with self-compassion. Like I had to really confront how judgmental I was about other people. Interesting. As stemming from being so judgmental about myself. And once I was able to work through that and let that go, I found myself to be much more empathic. But I think it has to start with yourself.

Kate: Well, and

Nora McInerny: It's also, it's embarrassing I would say to be almost 40 and to be like, Sorry, I'm not with the times yet. I haven't gotten there. <laugh> I, I'm really trying. Yes. I watch these TikTok of girls in their twenties. This, I can never remember anyone's name on TikTok, but it's like, this is what my body looks before I eat. This is what it looks like after I eat. This is what my body looks like when I sit down. This is, And I think I am so glad that exists. I am so glad that exists because I am also aware of how futile this all is and of how pointless.

Kate: Let me ask you this, post this to both of you, cuz I have this experience too where I watch these 20 year olds and they have such a different perspective and I'm like, God, you're so lucky. Yeah, we grew up in such a different space. But understanding that seeing them has helped me have compassion for how the world in which all people our age grew up in. And also the generation above us because oof, I sometimes look at Gen Z and I'm like, this is so great, but y'all get it. It was so fucked up when we were your age. It was so fucked up when we were in high school. And I'm sure they'll say that to the generation behind them. But for the first time I've been able to look ahead of me and be like, Oh, oh <affirmative>, it's given me a little bit more. Having younger generations now, not being the youngest, has helped me understand, I think, and have a lot more compassion for the people older than me and the shit that they did. Because it's

Nora McInerny: Like, yeah,

Kate: You're only existing in the time that you, you're here. So it's, it's the only experience we know.

Doree: Well and that makes it even more amazing that Gen Z is breaking the cycle,

Kate: Dear God,

Doree: Because they have generations of fucking bullshit <laugh> to deal with. And yeah, I mean it is really astounding to see their perspective. And I think, I didn't realize how much I had internalized until I started seeing how younger people are thinking about everything. But especially body image stuff.

Nora McInerny: I saw somebody on Instagram be like, I think kids stay have it so much worse than we did as far as body image stuff. And I was like, Huh, I can see why all the filters this sort of version of reality. But they have access to those, they understand or have an ability to understand that level of artifice and have access to it. Whereas when we were seeing things on tv, on it in movies, I didn't understand what airbrushing was. It never crossed my mind that a magazine cover was not just a real honest to God picture. The one I was taking with a point and shoot, I didn't understand hair extensions. I literally thought that was all Christine Aguilar's hair.

Kate: Oh I didn't understand hair extensions until I was 30. And a friend of mine who's an actor, I got in her car and she had fake hair cuz she wore fake hair on tv. And I was like, What? And she was like, Oh yeah, everybody on TV's wearing fake hair. And I just assumed it was all their real hair. And then everybody had good hair.

Nora McInerny: Same. Well,

Doree: And Nora, you do raise an important point, which is like, I don't wanna imply that Gen Z has no issues or that eating disorders do not exist anymore. Or of course that everyone in Gen Z is body positive or even body neutral. And I know that growing up with social media has also been really tough for many, many, many kids. And I just wanna acknowledge that.

Nora McInerny: I'll also say all of that is true. And they also are growing up. I mean everything is a trade off. They're growing up in a time where media institutionally is kinder. There would not be a Perez Hilton. And I do think that man still needs to atone for his crimes in a way that he has not yet. His apology tour has been light. Light that psychologically, even consuming that in my early twenties, fucked me up. Right? Oh

Kate: My god.

Nora McInerny: <affirmative> that. That was a bizarre time and that was normal. That was normalized. We thought that was yes, perfectly. Oh, fair game. You're famous, whatever. Bizarre. But they are also growing up in a time where they can be so deeply unkind to each other with no checks and balances and have a level of access to each other's vitriol and unkindness that we were spared from. Everything's a both end. Everything is a <affirmative>. This generation will never know and we will never know. Always <affirmative> and on on until the end of time, which is in six years <laugh>. So

Doree: <laugh>, we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back.

Kate: Okay. We're back. We never asked your self-care practice, your current self-care practice. Oh yeah. And I wanna make sure we do know both what you are doing for self-care and yeah, of course desert skincare. But let's start with a selfcare practice first. Is there something new? I mean, I feel like you have had a bit of a evolution. How are you caring for yourself right now, Nora?

Nora McInerny: Pretty poorly lately. Pretty poorly. Pretty poorly. Pretty poorly I will say. That's just something that I will, yeah, I'll just let it go. I will just literally, I am an all good or all bad kind of person. Doree, that is a very hard thing for me to let go of. Right? So I love to be like, this is a new routine and if I don't do all nine things then I can go to hell <laugh>. And it's like, who not great, not healthy. But I have been spending a lot less time on my phone, a lot less time on my phone. Much, much less. I don't have email on my phone. So I'm noted to work all the time and I've taken it off and on, but I haven't had it on my phone in over a year now. Whoa. Wow. That's

Kate: Amazing.

Nora McInerny: And no slack on my phone. So it's like I'll either get it or I won't do it or I won't and something's gotta go. And I don't look at my phone right away in the morning until I've done things right. Until I've gone into the kitchen, had coffee with my husband, looked the children in there, I've gotten them to school. I can listen to something on my way home from walking them to school, not on my way there. So trying to feed myself life before feeding myself whatever is there. But that's one of the biggest things for me cuz I am straight up, I have had an internet slash technology addiction since the minute I got a taste of it. I was like, Oh yeah, this, I'll push this button. Yeah, I'm a rat looking for this palette for

Kate: Sure. Second, we got those AOL CDs that we could in insert to our computers.

Nora McInerny: Oh yeah. The sound of a door opening that does something to the back of my skull.

Kate: <laugh> like And what is your skin care? Do you have any prods that you're loving that you're using right now? Yes. And perhaps have it's changed since you've gone to a drier climate.

Nora McInerny: I am. I mean I was always, cuz Minnesota's very dry in the winter, so I was always a little sort of lizardy kind of person. <laugh> forever. Forever. But I am so good with, and I was always, I was always very skin cancer. Afraid sense forever. I always wear sunscreen now. I wear sunscreen even when other people are not wearing sunscreen. I wear my lands end sun shirt long sleeve right up to here. I would wear turtleneck if they made it. Hopefully they will. They hear me on that and oh, I do that clear and brilliant laser. So I do that every quarter. I get HFAs. I haven't gotten one in five months, so maybe I shouldn't claim that. I get those. They are so amazing. God, I love a hfa

And now I can't remember the name. Hold on. I have to Google it. Okay. You might be able to identify just by this. It's like a face self tanner. It's like a spray aisle of paradise and it's like a little mist. And I missed it on, I didn't do it today, so I looked pale, but I missed on my face, my neck and my missed on my face. I leaned back so I wouldn't get the fake spray tan on the mic. I just leaned back, get it to protect it from the motion of it. And then I b it in with a brush. I don't know if that helps or not. It just feels like I'm applying something. And then by the time I walk the kids to school and I get back, I've got a glow glow, a little beautiful face glow.

Kate: I've never heard of this.

Nora McInerny: Yeah.

Kate: Oh, this is changing my life.

Nora McInerny: Look like I live in Arizona, but I haven't been in the sun. I haven't done <laugh>. I haven't gone out or done anything. Also, I use old people lotion. I use usin guys. Oh, I love Usin

Kate: Great. RINs

Nora McInerny: Great. I fucking love it. I use the stuff in the pot. It's like it's a paste. Oops. And it's like it at least once a day, just a thick layer of user. I gotta wander around in my room and just my underwear til it fully soaks in that level of hydration I need all year round, because I live in a straight up actual desert. I live in the Sonora Desert. If you're wondering, can I identify the kind of desert I live in? Yes, I can. Okay.

Kate: <laugh> <laugh>. Well, Nora, your new book is wonderful. It's such a great read. The title is Bad Vibes Only. It's out October 11th. You can get it now. Wherever books are sold. If folks wanna follow you, your wisdom, your humor, your wit, your charm, where can we find you? Where are you currently on the internet or I l? Because you do have for tour dates coming up.

Nora McInerny: Oh my God, yes. All October on the 12th I'll be in Phoenix doing a book signing. Then San Antonio, no wear books then you know what? You can go to nora borealis.com, you can see all the tour dates. And I really do send good emails. I send good emails. I'm on Instagram, Touch and go. I'm on TikTok not to be a public, just to be a weirdo. I'm just on tic to just exist. <laugh>, I'm just on tic to the way that Instagram used to be, how we would just post a picture of our coffee or <affirmative>, whatever. That's how TikTok feels to me right now.

Kate: Yeah, you're very loosey-goosey on there. I like it. You're just yourself. Yeah, yeah. It's really fun. Not,

Nora McInerny: I don't wanna be a personal brand at all. I just don't want to. I feel like that is what I learned. Making bad vibes only. I don't wanna be a personal brand <affirmative> at all.

Doree: <affirmative>.

Kate: Well, as always, we're so grateful to have you on the show. Thank you. Thank

Doree: You girls. Thank you Nora. So good to see you.

Nora McInerny: So good to see your real faces. I listen to you every week and I just

Kate: Hear

Nora McInerny: Your little voices

Doree: <laugh> here. They're Nora, Nora, Nora, Nora, Nora.

Kate: You know, Nora is another person who you I became friends with via Tumblr.

Doree: Oh wow.

Kate: Isn't that wild? She read I

Doree: Is Wild.

Kate: She used to see me perform improv and she read my Tumblr when I was kind of writing a lot about my mom having passed away. And then I started reading hers when she was writing about Erin when he was diagnosed with cancer. And we became internet friends. Turned il friends.

Doree: Well, like wow

Kate: Gal. I know.

Doree: Doree. Isn't that fun?

Kate: I like finding my friends on the internet.

Doree: That's so funny. Well, anyway, Kate, let's get into the intention zone. You sent me a picture of the mountain of returns. Did you actually return all that

Kate: Stuff? I did. My daughter and I went to the package store and we took four trips between the car. I brought a laundry basket filled with packages, not to mention other

Doree: Boxes. Oh my gosh.

Kate: I know. And I felt, I have to say shout out to anyone working at any sort of mailing or shipping store. But the person working that day was just like, I felt so bad and I go there and spend money too, but it's also where I drop off packages that have labels and I was like, so sorry. This was a problematic week in my home. Yeah, and we should say that when I sent you, I had mentioned this and then I sent you the photo after I sat and packaged everything up. And I believe your reply was like, Oh, I didn't think it was gonna be that bad

Doree: <laugh>. I think I said like, Oh, I did not realize the extent.

Kate: The extent was extreme. So I mean, I'm not proud of it, but I try to be my authentic self here on this podcast, so I appreciate it.

Doree: I also managed to make it to the UPS store. Just a little update on

Kate: To return.

Doree: Yeah. Yeah. I had three packages to return. <laugh>.

Kate: No, I probably beat you by 40, but that's glad we've got our stuff sent back. That is truly sending back the packages is one of the most challenging things for my executive function. But it must be done. Yes, it must be done.

Doree: It must be done.

Kate: I will say though, one thing I would like to get better at is just not hitting purchase, stopping myself before <affirmative>. Cause as I told you, I did buy something and went to return it and the company was like, Oh, just keep it or res or donate it. And that to me speaks to the fact of just, ugh, waste.

Doree: Yeah, I mean I think it depends on the company, but I think a lot of these returns just go to a landfill.

Kate: So

Doree: I mean, one thing I will say that has helped me is keeping things in my cart at least overnight.

Kate: Then you sleep on it a little bit,

Doree: I sleep on it and then I come back and I'm like, Do I really want this? Do I really need this? I'm trying to make fewer just impulsive <affirmative> purchases and fewer like, Oh, there's a 20% off sale, better get this thing immediately. Because in actuality, Dwight need absolutely need this thing almost usually always not <laugh>.

Kate: So

Doree: True. And then when I come back to it, I'm usually able to say with a little bit more clarity, I don't actually need this A or actually is something that I need and so I will buy this. But I find that giving yourself that beat is helpful.

Kate: That's a really good call. I'm gonna try to put that into practice. I mean, I'm gonna kind of throw that into this week's intention. But the other thing I did wanna just put out there is that I really need to c come up with a system of weekly kind of sitting down to organize all my medications and vitamins. I take a variety now of prescribed medications, plus I've got a whole supplement situation going on, and I find it to be very tedious when I have to sit down and do all my weekly organizations, but then otherwise I don't take things or I miss things. So I need to form a habit there. So that's on my brain of how am I gonna get that? It's not just that I have to do it, it's that I have to create a system and create a habit. So that's a big one for me. Anyway. Doree onto you.

Doree: So my intention last week was about Yoon Kippur, which as we are recording, this starts tonight. We're recording this a little bit ahead of time because of some various scheduling things. So I cannot yet actually speak to my intention, but I can tell you that I'm getting into the Yom Kippur head space and I feel good about that.

So anyway, this week I feel like this has been a intention that has popped up periodically, many times over the years. But I am really feeling like I need to get rid of some stuff in my house, so I need to organize some stuff to sell. And yeah, that's just kind of where I'm at right now. So that's what I'm thinking.

I mean, it does feel a little bit like I have said in the past that the Jewish New Year feels more like the actual New Year to me than January 1st. And I do think that there's something about wanting to have a rebirth of my home that corresponds to the Jewish New Year. So I'm really, really feeling that right now.

All right. Well, Kate, this has been a pleasure

Kate: Always

Doree: and we just wanna remind everyone that Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me. And I'm Dorees Shafrir, and you are Kate Spencer and it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is a cast. Bye.

Kate: We'll talk to y'all later.

 
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