Episode 226: Modern Grief and Loss with Rebecca Soffer
“
The body remembers, and the more you don’t pay attention to it, the more it’s going to make itself known.”
- Rebecca Soffer
Kate and Doree address the impactful Roe v. Wade decision and share some resources for how to continue to play the long game both politically and personally. Then, Rebecca Soffer (Modern Loss, The Modern Loss Handbook) joins them to discuss the importance of paying attention to your physical self while dealing with grief, the brands that are oblivious about their newsletter opt-out campaigns, and why it’s okay to not know how to help someone you love who is grieving.
Photo Credit: Emma K. Rothenberg-Ware
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer.
Doree: I am Doree Shafrir,
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We are not, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: We do together, and you can always visit our website for 35 podcast. For links to everything we mention on our show can find us on Twitter at forever35pod on Instagram at forever35podcast. And you can join the forever35 Facebook group where the password is serums.
Doree: You can also shop our fave prods at shopmyshelf.us/forever35. You can sign up for the newsletter at forever35podcast.com/newsletter, but just a reminder, newsletter is going on hiatus for July while Kate and I are on Vacay.
Kate: So is Instagram.
Doree: Yes,
Kate: Yes, yes.
Doree: Um,
Kate: So are we Doree? So are we,
Doree: So are we. If you want to reach us, you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. And you can email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Kate: Don't hesitate to text or call or email us while we are on vacation, because we will be looking at that later.
Doree: Uh, we will be,
Kate: Yes. We love to hear from you, even if, you know, even if we're taking the week off, it's always a treat to come back to some messages.
Doree: It always
Kate: Is.
Doree: It always is.
Kate: But the, the fun thing is that you and I are both traveling, which I mean, it always presents itself as a challenge. Doesn't it like even it does, even if you're traveling alone and you have it down, there's always something.
Doree: Yep. There's always something,
Kate: Kate, how are
Doree: You doing what traveling.
Kate: Okay. Well, I am, uh, I'm gonna be doing, uh, a bit of it this summer and, um, I just actually made up a new travel hack, literally 10 minutes before sitting down to talk to you today.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Here's the deal? Um, I'm my daughter is traveling and she's gonna be away for a little bit this summer. And this is my daughter who used now uses the very specific do hair shampoo and conditioner because she's got very thick, wavy hair. Right? Right. So while she's away, we, I was like, let's make sure you have your special conditioner, but it comes, it's almost like a jar of peanut butter. Like it's not, it comes in jar. Now. I am determined to travel on this trip without, um, checking bags. I don't want 'em to get lost. I just like, I just don't wanna deal. I don't wanna deal with checking it bag, but this conditioner is eight ounces of conditioner in a jar. And you know, TSA is gonna come at me. If I come on that plane with an eight ounce jar of conditioner, they'll find it. They always do. Oh,
Doree: They, they, a hundred percent will.
Kate: So I bought these, you know, TSA approved, little rubber shampoo, travel bottles. And I was like, we'll just, you know, we'll move all the shampoo and conditioner into these bottles, which are the right size. It's the ridiculous song and dance don't even get me started, but we're just gonna do it. Well, the condition the shampoo went in, okay. From the bottle, the conditioner, because it's in a jar. I, I, I realized way too late. I was like, how are we gonna get this? Like goopy thick consistency condition? It's the thick do. I'm I'm serious. When I say it is a nut butter level consistency, how am I gonna get a nut, a nut butter into this tiny jar, tiny, you know, mushy jar. Well, I dug around in my baking cabinet and I found, I don't know what these things are called because I don't bake, but they are like the little metal things you use for frosting with a, with a pointy plastic bag. I'm sure these have
Doree: Yes, yes, yes.
Kate: You know, I'm about right.
Doree: Yes, I do. It's a, I think it's a pastry bag.
Kate: Okay. A pastry bag, let's say. And then the pointy thing that you make designs with.
Doree: Okay. Well, I I'm loving this so far.
Kate: I busted those out and I S scooped the jar of conditioner into that pastry bag. And I used that pastry bag and that little metal thing to squirt this thick ass condition are into this travel bottle. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I felt like a fucking genius.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Because you know, you're always, when you're always trying to move products from a bigger bottle to a little bottle, mm-hmm <affirmative> they spill, and then you're like, your hands are covered in shampoo. So this is my new travel hack. If you have to fill a tiny bottle with like an UN wheel, like a challenging product, get a pastry bag and a little pointy pastry cap, sporty thing.
Doree: Okay. This is kind of genius.
Kate: It was, I felt literally my daughter and I were like, look at us because we had tried spooning it in. And it was like, oh, this is, this is bad. We're not, we're not gonna be able to spoon this in with the one baby spoon. I have left into this tiny bottle. So, right. I felt pretty proud of myself. That's my new travel hack. I didn't, I made it up. I didn't read it anywhere. I didn't find it on buzzfeed.com. I made it up. Maybe, maybe it's already out there in the world, but I felt pretty proud of myself, Kate. Yep.
Doree: You are. You are, you are an influencer.
Kate: I am right. I should be on TikTok with all the other Mormon mom bloggers and just influencing like crazy with my one hack.
Doree: Yes, exactly. It's a life tip. Um, you know, I am actually, I would like to solicit some life tips from our listeners or from you.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: You know, I do one of the, I would say one of the kind of sneaky benefits about being a quote unquote older mom is that most of your peers have older kids and they can, first of all, they give me, they gimme so many hand me downs and
Kate: Is a big bonus.
Doree: Um, there's always like a, like a sounding board for any of my questions. It's really helpful. I will say any way. Um, Kate, I will soon be traveling across the country with a three year old, my three year old.
Kate: <laugh> not a random three year
Doree: Old. No, a random three year old. Now we ever, since our disaster's trip last summer, we've we've, we've made some modifications.
Kate: <laugh> okay. And if we can just refresh everyone's memory, this is when your plane, what changed course in the air and went to Buffalo and then you fell on your son's throw up.
Doree: Okay. We, I think it was Rochester, first of all. Okay. Sorry. Second of all. Yeah, there was a leak in the control tower at JFK. So they had grounded all flights and <laugh> rerouted everyone. And we were in the Rochester airport for like four or five hours. And there was just like a cascade failure of like various other things that went wrong. Like the plane was too big for the airport, so they couldn't pull all the way up to the gate. So they had to stop like close to the gate, but they couldn't like their jet way did not connect to our airplane. So we had to get on this. Like they, and they, or like maybe it did. And they overshot, I don't, there was something where we all had to get on this, like hydraulic lift bus thing to travel 10 feet to the game after we had been on the plane for like an extra hour or something. And, um, Henry was like losing it. Understandably.
Kate: Yeah. I would be too.
Doree: Anyway. Yes. Then we, we like booked it to five guys, which was like one of the only places open in the wing of the Rochester airport, where we were, and Henry is like standing on a chair and I'm like, oh, like, let's be careful that he doesn't fall. And then literally I turned my back for half a second and he crashed to the ground.
Kate: Oh God.
Doree: And I think it was just the shock of it all. And he had just eaten and he threw up all over me now, thankfully, I had packed a change of clothes, although I guess I did miss my chance to get like a Rochester t-shirt <laugh> in the airport. You
Kate: Know, that's always my dream that you're gonna be like really cold on vacation and you won't have a sweatshirt, so you'll have to buy the local tourist sweatshirt.
Doree: Totally. Um, and then, and then I was holding Henry who was still pretty hysterical. Matt went to get some napkins to try to wipe up the throw up. And then I slipped and fell on Henry's puke whilst holding Henry. It was, it was like, it was like, what the fuck else can go wrong? Like honestly, what else can go wrong? <laugh> oh my gosh. I mean, I guess there's, I never forget this. There's always more that can go wrong as I learned, but like, of course, but that was really, that was like pretty up there. Anyway, we, you know, obviously stuff like that is out of our control. Like I do not have control over the weather as much as I would like to, um, or, you know, pilot shortages or any of the various horrible things that I've been reading about. <laugh> what traveling is.
Kate: I know right now I'm so nervous.
Doree: I know. Um, so I'm trying not to like, let, I'm trying not to get ahead of myself without anxiety, you know? Cause like there's nothing I can do about it right now. As of today, my flight is still going, so I don't know. We'll see. Um, but I was wondering if people had any thoughts on traveling with a three year old, we are gonna be bringing a car seat onto the plane. Um, so he will be like somewhat contained and we are planning on downloading probably every episode of Mickey mouse's clubhouse onto an iPad. Um, and he does, he will watch stuff on the plane. So like there that is, you know, that's okay. But I'm just wondering if there's like other stuff or if there's like particular COVID stuff that I should be mindful of or, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I just, just throwing it out there would love any and all thoughts.
Kate: Well, here's what I used to do when my kids were a bit younger, don't do it as much anymore because they are easily just fully entertained by watching an iPad. Like they'll download their own TV shows and watch them. But when they were younger, like let's say under seven and under, in addition to the iPad, I mean, one, I would say if, if Henry is at all interested, I mean, you could just download them to have, look for like toddler friendly iPad games, because there are a bunch and that might engage him in a way that a TV show would not. And they're not like, you know, they're not like there there's a lot of educational ones. If you wanna go that route. Um,
Doree: Now that you mention it, I had once downloaded con academy, I think.
Kate: Oh, con academy kids.
Doree: Yeah. Khan academy kids, um, out of desperation when like we didn't have childcare and it was like too hot to go outside. I don't remember exactly what the circumstances were, but yeah, we did download it and he did enjoy that. So that's a great idea. I can remember my kids. Can you use it offline? No, right.
Kate: Yes. There you, well, you have to check which, um, like double check. So check everything before you go that you download. I mean, my kids had a game where it was literally like a screen would come up and it'd be all different animals and you would just like tap the animal and it would make the animal sound and this entertain them. I vaguely remember this game. So that's one thing I do. Another thing I do is I make sure I have extra snacks. Like I pack double what I think a child could eat and I pack, like I try to pack like an exciting snack. Like I'll, there's always like a treat that they might not normally have or just something in there to be like, Ooh, we're on a plane and we get this thing. Then I also like to either go to like the dollar store or the like bins, right. When you walk into a target where everything's like one to $3 or even just the regular kind of kid toy section and get some fun, new toys and activities that they've never seen before. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> like a new now I know, again, every child is different. Every child's a different age, but like some sort of coloring or activity book, or even like a pad of paper and big ass crayons. And they can just like, even if it entertains them for two minutes.
Doree: Yeah, totally.
Kate: You have it. Um, and the dollar store and that like walk-in target section is great for just, you know, toys. That's okay. If they don't make it back home.
Doree: Mm great call.
Kate: Great
Doree: Call. Yep.
Kate: And then, uh, then maybe a book if they have, or a new book, I like to put a new book in. Mm. Or if they have a book that they'll look at for like five hours,
Doree: Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Kate: I think that's my, that's my list. Some Dramamine, like, obviously you handle that, but some Dramamine cuz my kids always get a little, my kids puke on planes.
Doree: I mean, knock on wood. Henry has never puked on a plane. He's just puked at a five guys in the Rochester airport. <laugh>
Kate: He just plane adjacent. But
Doree: Yeah, playing adjacent.
Kate: I have just like a vivid memory of my flying alone with my two kids. And they were both under like five years old and my youngest was probably two and a half and she like fell asleep as we landed. And then literally as the plane was deboarding I forget the word. She just bared everywhere. And I had to like, oh God. Oh, it was just like, and I was alone and I had two car seats. It was just, it's not easy traveling with young children. It's
Doree: Really hard. No, it's not. I, you know, he is potty trained now, which I'm like, is this better? Or, or worse? Like, I feel like there's high probability of an accident. Um, but I guess that just is what it is. Bring I'll bring many changes of clothes.
Kate: Yeah. Bring many little undies.
Doree: Okay. I'll bring many little undies
Kate: And in terms of COVID stuff, you know, I think it's just the usual. Keep that wear a good mask. Keep that on as much as you can wipe everything down.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Wash your hands. Someone told me you should blast the air, the air on your face. Yeah. But also like if you don't blast the air on your face, it's okay. You know, you can do everything possible and you could still get COVID or you could do nothing and not get COVID. It's like who the F knows at this point.
Doree: I know. I know exactly.
Kate: Hmm.
Doree: So, all right. Well Kate, that was super helpful. See, this is what
Kate: Really talking
Doree: About.
Kate: Yes. Good. Ugh.
Doree: Do you have any other hot parenting tips that I should know? Just while we're, while we're talking.
Kate: I mean, I never got these, but I did have friends who got their kids suitcases that were also scooters and they would like scoot through the airport. Have you ever seen those?
Doree: No.
Kate: What? Yeah. Yeah. Scooter suitcases. Yeah. So that's how they would get their kid around. I, I, I think I was never willing to pay the amount that the scooter suitcase cost, but a tiny suit, like anything that a kid could possibly carry. Let me make sure I'm not making this up. Yeah. Scooter suitcase for kids. Yep. <laugh> it's literally a suitcase that folds out into a scooter.
Doree: Wow. They have thought of everything.
Kate: I mean, yeah. If you're willing to spend the money, you can really
Doree: Well, actually that does, that is, that does raise another question that I would like to throw out to you and the listeners who might have experience with this. I was considering not the scooter suitcase, although I am intrigued, I was considering getting Henry, uh, a rolling backpack and having him be in charge of his own backpack. And I'm wondering if that is a good idea or if I'm just going to end up carrying it.
Kate: I think it really depends on your child. Yeah. And there's no way to know because I know who knows what kind of meltdown your kid's gonna be.
Doree: Well, and also who knows what kind of mood he's gonna be in at five 30 in the morning?
Kate: Oh God. Yeah. Yeah.
Doree: I mean, he's, he's a big Henry doit person. <laugh> like, he does like to do everything himself. And I think he would like giving him that task of like being in charge of his own suitcase, I think would be like very exciting for him. But I do worry about his like overall mood <laugh> yeah. So his
Kate: Patience against like, yeah. Henry not gonna do it right now. Like come on. Yeah. It's 6:00 AM Henry
Doree: And I want to, yeah, exactly. So I, I think, I think if I do that, I just have to like be prepared for the inevitable mama carry.
Kate: Right. That you might be yeah. You might be rolling a yes. Tiny suitcase around.
Doree: Yes, exactly. All
Kate: Right. Well listen, good luck. Because it's it's seems very, uh, scary out there right now with all these endless flight cancellations and like all this stuff, it just
Doree: Feels like, like bags getting lost bag. Like, did you see those pictures of Heathrow?
Kate: No.
Doree: Oh my God. There was like this huge breakdown in their baggage handling. And like there, there are these pictures on social media of just like a whole baggage claim area just filled with suitcases, like that were separated from their owners because everything like all the systems just like broke down. <laugh>
Kate: The system is why this is why I'm dragging that carryon on. I know.
Doree: I just, I, I don't think we can do all carry-ons given our, you know, small child.
Kate: No, I know this is when and I love checking a bag, checking a bag feels luxurious and it makes everything so much easier. I am not opposed to a bag check.
Doree: I know ever,
Kate: But God is, it's kind of challenging. All of it is so challenging right now.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Hmm. Good luck
Doree: Story. Thank you. I mean, it goes without saying that like, I'm just glad I'm able to travel right now.
Kate: Indeed.
Doree: I'm grateful that I am able to go and see family that said the logistics are like a little stressful <laugh>
Kate: Yeah. A hundred percent. I see you. I totally see you
Doree: So well, thank you for seeing me, Kate. I appreciate you. I appreciate our listeners. And before we take a break, let's introduce our guest.
Kate: Do I am really excited to get to introduce our guest today?
Doree: Ooh, such a good one.
Kate: Our guest today is Rebecca Soffer Rebecca and I first got to know each other when a friend connected us, um, and suggested I write for Rebecca's website, modern loss, um, Rebecca co-founded the website, modern loss, which is all about coping with grief in all its forms because when Rebecca was 30, she lost her mom in a car accident. And four years later, her father died of a heart attack while on a cruise in The Bahamas. And Rebecca has really worked to bring openness about grief to a broader audience and to really create and connect a community who needs a place to discuss and process their grief. And she has even written a book all about it. That is out now. It's the modern loss handbook, an interactive guide to moving through grief and building resilience. And as someone who has written and existed in the grief space, I can tell you, it is, it is a fantastic book that everyone should own. It is truly helpful. It's so insightful. Um, I it's just excellent. Rebecca has also contributed pieces across media. She has led modern loss retreats at CRI and Massachusetts keynote noted for several organizations, including good grief and capital one. And she's known for putting her special touch of levity depth and a bit of comfortable weirdness on modern losses, live storytelling events. She lives in New York and Massachusetts with her husband and sons. And we just had a really candid, open, fun, heartfelt, sensitive conversation with her. And I'm so excited to dig into it.
Doree: Kate, that was such a lovely intro. I, I have nothing to, so we're gonna take a break and uh, we'll be right back with Rebecca,
Speaker 3: Rebecca. We're so glad you're here because we are, we are people who like to speak very openly and honestly about stuff. And that is what you do with grief so well, but before we dig into that, we love to ask our guests at the sort of every interview for a self-care practice that they have in their own lives. So we know you've had a busy couple of years, but is there something that you have implemented that serves as self care for you?
Rebecca Soffer: Yes. And maybe it'll sound cliche, but like it's been really helpful for me. So a couple years ago there was this thing called a pandemic that entered into our lives and familiar. Yeah. I'm familiar with that term. And, and over the previous couple of years, I had gotten worse and worse at maintaining a regular exercise schedule because I had my youngest child is five and he was a baby when my first book came out and I really, and I was on book tour and it really got hard to like figure out a structure. Also I was in Manhattan. It's just like, everything is amazing there and also really hard there. So it was just so hard to juggle, like being a new parent and like having a book and working for myself. And the thing that slid was the regular routine, the workout routine. And I feel like it was really detrimental to me on many levels.
Rebecca Soffer: Like not just like the physical level, but like the mental health level and when COVID hit, we found ourselves, um, relatively soon thereafter in the Berkshires, in great Barrington, in a house that we had had for the last 10 years. And we have a Peloton here <laugh> which like, by the way, I had used a small handful of times because I've little kids, like when do they let you do that? But I was taking care of my whole family because half of them were sick with COVID in March, 2020, it was very overwhelming and very scary and very uncertain. And I remember getting everyone to bed and taking care of everyone. And then it would be like nine 30 at night. And I was so stressed and so scared and so confused. And I would think about like the Peloton downstairs <laugh> and I'm like, maybe I should just do that.
Rebecca Soffer: And I started doing it and it became my self-care practice to the point where like, I, I mean, I was doing it like five times a week and really yes, of course I saw like the physical benefit, but just to have that ritual and to know that for like 30 minutes, cuz like I'm not doing hour long PTO rides come on. Um, OK. Like the 20 minute I'm like, like that's not, did you really do it? But like I can do 30 minutes. And, and after that 30 minutes, I, I did notice like my brain had calmed a bit. My body felt better. Like everything that felt like undoable 30 minutes beforehand felt maybe like maybe a little bit doable afterwards. And so I really was like, you know what, um, as someone who works for themself, I think it's really hard to make your exercise and physical wellness time part of your work schedule because you're like, oh, that's a luxury.
Rebecca Soffer: Yeah. But I actually realize that like doing that and it's still now part of my, not just the Peloton I do, I do, I do. I'm an outside cyclist and I've been doing that a lot for me. It's like the way that I can deal with my shit. It is like the way. And if, if I have like three hours and I have so much work to do and I haven't exercised in like two or three days, I, I just, I convince myself that that time is part of my work time because I, I can't work well mentally without it. So yeah, it's, it's, I, I'm a big believer in it. The body keeps the score, you know, it really does. So you gotta deal with that. You know,
Doree: I do, I, I do appreciate the way that you're framing this because as someone who also works for herself, I find that exercise is often the first thing to go like, oh, I just don't have time today. I have so many calls, blah, blah, or whatever. Um, but kind of making sure you work it into your day as part of your Workday. I really like that framing.
Rebecca Soffer: Yeah. I'm gonna
Doree: Ruminate on that. Thank you.
Rebecca Soffer: I do. I, can I do I consider part of my Workday. I mean, I don't, I, I just do, and I think that just, it's just how I frame it and how I frame it. That's very helpful to me because it's like an accountability thing. Not just like, oh, your body needs it. No, no, no. Like I can't write clearly unless I do that, I can't have like, do like seven interviews in one day, unless I clear my head and my body gets topi us out. Like I'm on SPUs all the time. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, I mean, look at the news cycle that we're enduring. We have to, we need to move our bodies. It's like, it's very, very important. So that's how I do it.
Speaker 3: Well, and your work is within the grief space.
Rebecca Soffer: Yeah. Which that too <laugh>
Speaker 3: Is really, it's really intense to be kind of constantly processing your grief and other people's grief, but also to be creating a space where people come to work through grief, like that's, you're carrying a, a, a heavy load. And so I can see how that would help kind of move through it.
Rebecca Soffer: Yes, it's true. I am. Um, and I say that not like, oh, like all the loss that's happened to me, just that like, I really do. Um, my choosing is to hold space for an entire community of people who are dealing with various layers and levels of loss and grief. And that is what I've chosen to do. And I really believe in it now more than ever been doing it nonstop for like almost nine years. Um, but it gets to be a lot sometimes. Um, especially now like with a book out and I have to like talk about how my parents died like three times a day, which is by the way it gives me no joy. And also I hate it. Like I actually hate doing it. I wish I didn't have to, I don't enjoy this part of it. Um, but I, I feel like, uh, grief is something that you, you just cannot, you can't fix anybody's grief.
Rebecca Soffer: And sometimes I feel like so helpless with some people where I just wish I could make it better. And I really do believe that inherently through my work, I am doing my small share in making it better. Like, it's all I can do, but like, I can't fix it for somebody. And so this feeling of impotence and like, then I take on their grief, cuz I'm very much like a deep feeler. I access all the feelings. Um, so I take on some, some hard feelings from others and I feel like that feels very uncontrollable cuz you can't fix it for them and then you can't fix it for you. So I realized, oh the control that I do have is getting on that Cannondale and like going on that, you know, that Alfred loop near my house or like doing the Peloton or even just like walking, like I have become a power Walker. My mom would be so proud of me. <laugh> I power. I own that power walk, you know? And like I do feel like that is, it's like a modicum of control that I have in a field that has very, very little control.
Speaker 3: Yeah. You in, in the modern lost handbook, which I have to say, I think is fantastic. As someone who like has written about grief and dealt with grief and you and I came to know each other through our dead parents. Yeah. Um, is
Rebecca Soffer: You're my dead parent friend.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Which, which I wanna talk about later because you write about kind of communities that grow from grief, which I love, but it's a, it is a, it actually feels like, um, a genuine and authentically helpful book, which I feel like so many times when people go searching for grief guide books, it's all kind of, you know, cheesy and very nineties, but you have a, you have a really great chapter that focuses on trigger days, which I, I had never heard anybody call them that, but we all know what they are. And I thought it was a really, I'm so glad you talk about it. Um, so I wanted to kind of get your perspective because I do feel like the conversation has picked up about certain trigger days, like mother's day and father's day, for example. And I would love to kinda get your thoughts on the conversation that's happening now. Do you think that these things that companies are doing, like letting people opt out of emails, is that actually helpful? Is this all performative? Is there any way to truly navigate these trigger days? We experience with our grief?
Rebecca Soffer: I mean, you know, it's, it's interesting. Yes. I have called them trigger days. And in the wake of the last few weeks of all this gun violence, I, I kind of wish that I hadn't. Um, but it kind of is what it, I mean like, you know, like we can only do our best and we, yeah. I, I mostly call some of these days, like, especially when they fall all together anniversary season and not the anniversaries that make you feel really good, just the real bittersweet ones. And so yeah, like the hallmark holidays, the birthdays, the death anniversaries. Um, but yeah, specifically to answer your question, when it comes to like mother's day father's day, we are now getting more and more opt out emails from companies that have been, become hip to the fact that their clients are human people shocking. And that they're not just like an email address on the other end, you know, in an inbox and that maybe they don't wanna have mother's day jammed down their throats, starting in like what March.
Rebecca Soffer: Um, and so it's been nice to get those and that started like a couple years ago and now it's feels like everybody's doing it. And then the book I do say I do love this trend. Um, I have though noticed, and I won't name names mostly because I'm so tired that I can't remember brand names, but, and there has been some chatter in the modern loss community about like, it does sometimes it, some of them feel like performative, like, oh, like we're gonna get this halo effect by offering this opt out. Like you, I do believe in the optout. I, I, I, I don't think it has to be performative. I think you can literally say, uh, we know this day can be something that you just absolutely do not need looming in your inbox from us. Here's one click we're out. See ya on the other side. But what if you it's all in the messaging, if you're, if you're writing three paragraphs about it, if you're coming up with designs for your optout
Speaker 3: Options,
Rebecca Soffer: Think about, are you doing it for your brand or are you doing it for the recipient? I'm just more of like a, keep it simple, stupid type of person. Yeah. Where it's like, ah, mother's day is gonna suck for some of you click here. I'm not gonna bother you. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. And I love that. I, I absolutely think companies should do that. I think they should also do that with like, they're not going to, but like with winter holiday stuff, they're not going to cuz that's like the big marketing, you know, sales period. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think it's a fine line. And I do think that I think in your gut, of course, if you're a brand, you're not like one person, but I do think in your gut, you know, you know what the intent is behind your messaging. Mm. Use it for, use your powers for good, you know, because people are smart and they can tell. Yeah, well they, yeah, right. It's like, it's easy to sniff that stuff out. Yes it is. And I've seen it and again, literally just too tired to remember details, but I've seen it more, like, I feel like it started more like two years ago and then last year there were more doing it and this year it feels like everybody's doing it. But now I see, I see the differences in messaging.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's still not
Rebecca Soffer: Like it's become its own trigger day <laugh>. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: Well, that, that was, there was a piece about that. I think in the Washington post where some people were like, it's still upsetting to get these emails. Right. And it's like, Jesus,
Rebecca Soffer: I mean, let it with loss and grief. You can't win with every single person. Like you literally cannot make everybody feel better all the time. And that is something that I have grappled with with modern loss. Like sometimes people don't like seeing some of our, you know, it doesn't happen frequently, but like if we post about like a child or whatever, maybe some people who have had this carriage had stillbirth. They're like, I can't see this. I don't wanna see this. You know? And I understand, you know, because everybody has their own triggers, but when you talk about grief, everything can be a trigger warning. You know what I mean? And modern loss is very much about letting it all hang out and having a really comfortable open space for people to share whatever they need to, as long as they're not hurting themselves or anybody else. Um, but yeah, like when it comes to the marketing, I mean, come on, lay layoff, <laugh> layoff. Don't make, don't make the opt out another hallmark holiday. <laugh>
Speaker 3: I love too that you talk about, um, the way that grief and you kind of touched on this, I think, through talking about your cycling, but like the way that grief connects so much to the physical aspects. Because I think one thing I always hear from people who are grieving, um, is like, they'll be like, oh, my mom died two months ago and I haven't slept. And like I can't eat. Is this normal? Like I don't think we, I don't think we culturally understand that grief manifests so physically in our bodies.
Rebecca Soffer: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's not something that often gets talked about the way in which we, we process or the way in which the grief manifests. Um, so you kind of have a, you have a nice list that I think is really helpful because it's, I was like, when my mom died, I was like, what the fuck is happening to me? So what are some things that you have noticed or heard anecdotally that can happen to the body and maybe how did you personally physically experience grief?
Rebecca Soffer: I mean, I've heard of so many things. I, I feel like the best way I can describe it is that I personally, and many people I know have felt like their bodies turned into marionettes in grief, especially in early grief that they're just like sitting there, but like someone else is like maneuvering the little, like, you know, wooden handle at the top and it can just be anything like, I, we have pieces. So we have a, a column on the site that's called grief bacon. And it's all about the effect of grief on the body. Right. And grief bacon, like there's a German term called Kumer spec, which is it eludes to like emotional eating, like gained by like the weight you gain from emotional eating and specifically in grief. And we just kind of expanded, we just call it grief bacon and it, and it's like anything the grief does to your body.
Rebecca Soffer: And so there are, there's a piece I remember written by a woman who said her lungs, like grief settled in her lungs. She was a runner and her brother died and she was having trouble breathing. She couldn't do long distance running. She couldn't catch her breath, you know? Um, and then another person talked about how her entire body was clenched, clenched tight after an ectopic pregnancy clenched. So tightly that she just couldn't let go. Um, and she didn't realize how tightly everything was clenched, like for months on end. Um, for me, you know, I, I went through the rigor, like I had like vertigo one month. Um, you know, my mom died in a car accident, so it was sudden, so there was a lot of like shock to the system and then like very, very slow starting to feel things that like I didn't necessarily enjoy.
Rebecca Soffer: Um, so I remember feeling really dizzy for weeks on end, um, feeling, you know, just like stomach pain. Um, and, and the dizziness like went into, like, I actually went to a neurologist to get a brain MRI because I was like, what the hell? Like, why, why am I looking at the sofa and feeling nervous to like close the space that exists between my, my head level and like where I'm gonna sit down. And I thought that it was, you know, I was like, I have a brain tumor, obviously that's the only answer. And this guy was the first person who was like, well, you don't have a brain tumor. And I'm like, okay, well, are you sure? And he's like, yep, I'm looking at your MRI. Um, and I'm like, well, what could it be? And he is like, well, has anything, you know, like what's going on in your life?
Rebecca Soffer: And I was like, oh, you know, like I'm working full time at a TV studio. And like, I, I have a really busy life. And like, my mom died in a car accident and yada yada, and he's like, let's go back to like that third one. And I remember he was the very first person who was like, I mean, when did your mom die? And I was like five months ago. And he said, well, that's, I mean, that, that's like a really big loss, you know, you could, he basically didn't say this, but he's, he basically was like, this is grief. Like this could be grief. Your body is, is absorbing a lot right now. Um, and it was the first person, including the therapist I'd been seeing, who was like, Hey, you, you like, you know, I don't think there's anything that's physically anatomically wrong with you.
Rebecca Soffer: This is the manifestation of grief. Um, and you probably should deal with it somehow. And so I did, you know, I, it really, it just was the moment where it became very evident that, you know, I think I call it in the book, the mind body grief continuum, and that you could fool everybody, but yourself. And I'd been like going about my life and pretending I was okay. And like, trying to deal with like the psychological aspect of it. And I hadn't quite realized that some of the stuff that I was having, like the headaches and all that was, that was grief too.
Doree: You know, we just, I feel like we just saw the kind of very tragic manifestation of this when the husband of one of the teachers in Uvalde had a, who, who was killed, had a heart attack the next day and died.
Rebecca Soffer: Ugh. I know they said he died of a broken heart.
Doree: Yeah. Like literally died of a broken heart. I,
Rebecca Soffer: I mean, and it could have been overwhelming stress and shock and like, obviously I'm disclaimer, not a physician, not a therapist. Same, but yes. I mean, I, I, I was in total shock when my mom died and, and it was very sudden and violent and, and absolutely not in a mass shooting and, you know, something that was in the public eye and was a societal trauma too. So yeah. I mean like the body absorbs all of this and I'm a big proponent of like, I basically try and spread the gospel that like, yeah. I mean, the body remembers and the more you don't pay attention to it, the more it's just gonna make itself known. Um, and in different ways. Um, and there's no like one fix, you're not just, just gonna take Advil <laugh> or like, you're not like just gonna like train harder to run. You have to get to the root of,
Doree: We're just take a short break and we will be right. Okay. We're back.
Speaker 3: Can we talk about the shitty things? People say, first of all, you diplomatically, you handled this so diplomatically I'm of course calling them shitty things. You're so much kinder about this <laugh>, but like other people navigating your loss alongside you, and this is something DOR and I have talked about a lot, cause we both experienced it in different ways in our own life. It's just an found an added burden as the person going through it. So I, I would love to know just anecdotally, what if there was something that someone said to you that like really got under your skin because we all have anyone who's gone through any sort
Rebecca Soffer: Of kinda grief. I mean, I automatically go to when people ask if my mom was wearing a seatbelt, no, fuck,
Speaker 3: Fuck.
Rebecca Soffer: Yeah, no, to this day, to this day. I still that question. Yeah. It's so not cool. Like don't ever do that to somebody. I, I, I, I have, I have come to view it with more empathy. Not all the time. Like I'm a human person, you know? Yeah. So, but, um, I, it can really bother me, but, um, my response to that is like, why do you want to know <laugh>? Mm I've come to like own. And I think in the book, I actually suggest to people that if somebody says something or asks something, ask some unsavory detail, that is like literally none of their fucking business about the circumstances of their person's death. That if you are at a loss, for words, the most appropriate thing is to look at them very innocently and say, why do you ask? Because like, really, why are you asking me that is that inherently tied to like how you're going to support me in loss, by knowing if my mom wore a seatbelt or like, if my dad was a smoker or if there were any warning signs before my boyfriend took his own life, is that really something that you need to know?
Rebecca Soffer: Um, but people ask and I, I, I have come to maybe try and see the compassionate side of things and realize that maybe we think that if we're asking for details and we, and we understand that, oh, they weren't wearing a seat bald. Or, and so if I do, maybe this isn't gonna happen to me. If there were warning signs, maybe that's something that I can control and it won't happen to me or people around me. Yeah. I think that I've chosen to kind of like view it from that lens, because if not, <laugh>, I'll be really annoyed with like a lot of people. <laugh>, mm-hmm, <affirmative> not people who are like really good friends, but just, you know, people say that stuff, you know, but I also think it's cool to be like really annoyed with those people. Like you have my blessing because it's super annoying to ask if, you know, if you can always get pregnant again after a miscarriage mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, or if you can always try IVF again, it's like, you know, we need to do better at telling people what is not okay to ask. Mm. And I, while I believe that grief and loss are very individual things and individual experiences, and I try not to say, don't do this, do this because everybody is so different. I do believe that there are some things that absolutely just generally don't help and make someone feel even more unseen
Rebecca Soffer: Yeah. In a situation where they already feel pretty damn invisible. Yeah.
Doree: Well, so as someone let's say someone who wants to support a friend who is grieving, how, how can people be better friends to their grieving friends?
Rebecca Soffer: Well, I think that these days, it's actually a lot easier to imagine how you can be better than it was a couple years ago, because the sad reality is that we're in the third year of a pandemic that has us all grieving. And if we haven't lost somebody to death loss during COVID, or not just to COVID, but like maybe during COVID and we couldn't go to a funeral or hug our people to, to remember them or mourn together, we've certainly lost something else. We've lost that feeling of control over our lives or of maybe the dream of a future of, of a job of roles or the we're mourning. The fact that we have so many additional roles piled onto us. I mean, there's just so much grief out there. There's societal grief. Like I could go on and on and on, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And so I feel like we all know what it's like to not understand what the future looks like or feel really nervous about what even next month looks like, because things are feeling so tenuous. Whenever we feel like we have a handle on this pandemic, there's another wave or, oh, no, just kidding. Now there's monkeys. I was like, oh my God.
Rebecca Soffer: On any of this. Totally. Um, and so I feel like the best thing we could do is just put ourselves in that position of like, oh, remembering that feeling, cuz we all know what it feels like. And when we're in that space, I do feel like we're more open to having conversations with people who are grieving and like from death loss, because we're on that level of, we, we know, we know what that feels like. Yeah. We know the feeling of fear, even if it's not connected to, to their type of loss, we understand them better. Yeah. Um, and it helps us be more empathic. You know, it really does, but practically tactically, you know, you don't have to say the perfect thing. There is no silver, you know, bullet when it comes to fixing someone's grief, there's no way that you can alleviate all their pain. And sometimes the best thing to say when you have no idea, what the thing is to say is literally that you can totally say, I wish I knew the perfect thing to say. I wish I had the wand that could wave this all away. Yeah. I'm so upset that you're going through this cuz it looks like it's really hard. You know like you don't, this is not you making assumptions or anything. This is you saying that you care, you wish you could be helpful. You feel kind of impotent, but also, but I'm here.
Speaker 3: I love how you talked. You, you said I wrote it down. You said, I truly believe your social support system has endless, endless growth possibilities after a loss. And I just thought that was really profound because there's this weird feeling when we go through grief or a loss in our lives that the outcome is all bad. And there are like beautiful things that come around as a result. And I think it is important to talk about that because it can feel like we aren't, you know, missing the person we lost or the experience we lost. But I, I do think that that really does. And I, I think Dora you've like you've had a whole community just come out of your conversation about infertility. That's amazing. So anyway, I just wanted to note that, uh, but thank you
Rebecca Soffer: <laugh>
Speaker 3: To you do, but, but how do you deal with the people in your life who ghost as a result of your grief or who ghost and don't even realize they ghosted.
Rebecca Soffer: Yeah. It's hard. I mean, look yeah. You and I, I mean, let's be clear like Kate, you and I are grief friends. Like, I mean, yeah. I, I would like to think that we would've met each other cuz you're so amazing and like, I'm fine. But like, you know, I, I would've liked to think that I would've met you and then like been like, oh my God, please be my friend. Um, otherwise, but you live in LA and I do not. And instead we were connected by, I think Tammy
Speaker 3: Saer I think it
Rebecca Soffer: Was Tammy. Yeah. Who was like, you have to meet Kate and then you wrote, oh my God. Like I just, I just fell in love with you. You wrote the best piece and you had no problem with me headlining it, how I'm making mother's day, my bitch. And that's when I didn't, in fact I love, I was in love with you. I was like, oh my God, she's either gonna be really turned off or she's really like it or she's on your level or she's my person. And so I have just adored you since that moment. And you've moved so many people in the modernized community. And so yeah, I could talk all day about like how you can build your circles and how people will come out, the woodwork for you. And I can almost promise that I can, I really can. And I can't tell you how or when or why or who I can't, but I can tell you that if you want it and you're open to it, that it, that, that it will happen.
Rebecca Soffer: I really believe that. Um, but yeah, like let's talk about like the underbelly of that, which is the fact that we don't talk enough about the fact that you're gonna probably lose some friends. Um, and that sucks. It's so unfair and that not everybody can hang with your loss and that people who you think were your rides or die, maybe even some of them will be those people who fall off and who just can't deal with the discomfort of, you know, whatever it is they think you're going through whatever details they think that you're living. Um, and it's just so hard because we take it so personally, because we also am very, it happens at a time when we're so, so vulnerable. And like, we don't wanna be like the Debbie or Danny downers. We're so aware that we're like scared to bring things up with our friends cuz they don't wanna be like the WWA every time.
Rebecca Soffer: So it really doesn't help us when like one of those friends just like pieces out when we need our people, the most, it just makes us more paranoid and more self-conscious right. And more like less apt to really share. Um, and that's so hard. It really is. Look, I lost some friends. Um, I would say that many of them are still my friends now. Hmm. I can say that because some of us had to take breaks. Some of my friends were in very overwhelming periods of their own lives, like mescal, medical residencies, you know, like literally like doing surgery and like being hazed by older physicians and just could not Intuit what I needed at any given moment because they were in their own misery. Others like maybe had newborns at home, you know, like everyone has still their own lives. Um, and some of them really fell through and I was really angry with them and some of them couldn't come through for the reasons that I said, which were, they're just like, I don't know why they were just weird about it.
Rebecca Soffer: And those people are really not in my life anymore. It's not a lot of people, but it was kind of like I had to figure out where my boundaries were and I got to the point where I was like, I'm not feeling good. Like I'm trying to reach out to this person. I'm hoping for more. I feel like I'm not asking for much. I just want them to call me <laugh> I just wanna like see them, but they weren't available. They made it very clear with their absence that they weren't present. And so I just was like, okay, like, I guess I already feel like such shit. Like why would I choose to feel shittier? And so I drew some lines, you know, and then with others who I thought I'd drawn lines from, a lot of them are still my closest friends and some time had to go by so that we could see each other more clearly, you know, their circumstances had to change. Mine had to change. And I'm really glad that, you know, I do encourage people not to like cut people out forever right away, you know, unless it's something really hurtful and just very much like in the not unforgivable, but unforgettable side of things.
Doree: That's such a good reminder just in general. <laugh> I think, um,
Rebecca Soffer: Yeah, in general, not just in grief. Yeah. In, in social dynamics, like you have to, the chapter is called like navigating and negotiating social dynamics because it's not just navigating, uh, you know, like a lot of the book is like trying to get people to realize that that phrase like empower yourself, like empower yourself. It's like, Ugh, you don't have to empower yourself. You you're empowered. You know, like you have these abilities yeah. Inside you. And when we feel so vulnerable, moving through loss, not just in the first month or year, but like kind of always, there's a little part of us that always feels vulnerable. Um, we have to remember that, like we can get what we need for the most part by going for it, you know? And sometimes that means drawing boundaries. <laugh> sometimes that's going for it. Yeah. And sometimes that's asking people for things that they can do for us. Yeah. So that we can in turn be a better friend to them or a better colleague or employee, you know, we, you can't draw from an empty well mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and I think all of us has been, have been kind of drawing from empty Wells for a really long time.
Doree: Yes.
Speaker 3: Yeah. My well is um, just a dusty hole.
Rebecca Soffer: Mine has like so many echoes in it and it's not like water. Yeah. Metaphor these days, a better metaphor these days. Uh, I don't even know, like it's a great, like a P dispenser, you know, it's like, oh my, like they they're seemingly limitless. Right. And then you get to the end and you're like, what? No, like no tablet. I feel like I've been like, you know, clicking my pest dispenser on empty for a very long time. And yet I still have the ability to like give to, you know, work wise and personally, but it, you know, it's, it's, it's taking longer to re recover and it it's, it's more frequent needed recovery periods, even therapists I work with, they are saying they, they have compassion, fatigue that they're, you know, like not doing well. It's like when the people who are holding us up and carrying us through or not doing well, what does that say about how we're doing overall?
Speaker 3: Wow. Compassion, fatigue is a phrase I've never heard before, but I can only imagine what that must be like.
Rebecca Soffer: It must be hard,
Speaker 3: Really freaking hard. So I guess Rebecca, as we wrap, what are your hopes for the kinda dialogue about grief, especially, you know, as we're talking, I mean, Dore, you mentioned it in your newsletter that came out today. Like just the, the grief of parents who had a pandemic baby and are grieving what they thought those first few years were going to be like and how they aren't. I mean, we are all going through these very individual moments of grief and there's this push societal to like move on and get back to the office and do, and like it's still going on. We're still, people are still dying, the pandemic isn't over and we need to process it. So this is kind of a very broad, vague question, but what do you think is, is a way in which, you know, maybe individually, but also within our own communities begin to take a step to kind of work through that grief as a collective?
Rebecca Soffer: Well, I think the most important thing is acknowledgement. That's the first and foremost step. Um, we all scrambled last summer to like have our hop back summer because there were vaccines and everything was going back to normal. Um, and not only did it not repeatedly <laugh>, but you know, I became evident that as the dust was settling, a lot of things looked very different than they had in February, 2020. It wasn't just that like, oh, we have Delta now. And then Omicron, then Elron too. It's like, oh my God, how many, you know, things, but it's also that like the world has changed and our, the people around us have changed and our landscape has changed that bodega, you know, maybe the owner died or maybe it went out of business. The one that we always went to, you know, the fabric of our day to day existence has shifted.
Rebecca Soffer: It's it's, it's it's, it has catches in it and holes. And if we don't acknowledge that, then how can we move forward? And how can we all, and also like not to sound like poetic and medical, like how can we derive any meaning from this time? Yeah. And how can we build something meaningful for ourselves in the future, if we're just like, okay, well that's done with, I mean, you can't right. There's like literally no way that everyone around you does not have a story or 10 or a hundred about mm-hmm <affirmative> tough times over the last two years. It absolutely does not have to be that someone died. Like you said, Doree, it could be that they had a pandemic baby. It could be, you know, like that they have, I have a five and eight year old and I have a kid now who's eight and looking around and seeing that things haven't gone back to the way they were when he was six.
Rebecca Soffer: And he didn't really think about it that much when he was six. And now he's realizing more, you know, it's like, we're all struggling with so much. And the only thing we have is each other, like community is the self we need right now. Everything is really fricking scary. It, I mean, at least it feels like that. Um, I feel like I'm like waiting for a headline. I am like scared to look at my New York times app. I like fire it up with like one eye open these days. And so I feel like acknowledgement is the most important thing we can do because without acknowledgement, then it's really hard to have compassion for someone else. If you don't feel like what you're going through is really hard and get the acknowledgement you need and the support that you need in whatever feels hard. It is very hard to have compassion for somebody else.
Rebecca Soffer: All you're gonna do is compare yourselves with them and resent them and feel unseen. So my biggest piece of advice is get the acknowledgement you need and get the support you need for it. And a lot of times the support is not just a therapist. It's not just a friend, it's many different things altogether. It's many modalities together, and you might need different things at different times. And as you both know, I'm a big believer in peer to peer support. So find a group of people who will give you an ongoing invitation to talk about whatever you need to talk about without judgment, without resentment, with some good advice, take it or leave it advice who can show you alternate points of view and rituals and cultures, and let you scream into the cosmic void when you need to. That stuff goes really far. And even though our own journey is very, very unique, um, it certainly feels like we're not the only ones on this overwhelming journey. Mm. When you have that,
Speaker 3: Ugh, such great advice, Rebecca, we, we need to let you move on to the next interview, but, um, this has been just so wonderful to get to talk to you and you've created such incredible resources for people. Can you tell us if they want to learn more about you about modern loss, about your two books, where they can get all that information?
Rebecca Soffer: Sure. Well, you can find a lot of stuff@modernloss.com. Everything is free. I also run the modern loss newsletter, which is on subs stack. If you go to modern loss com, you can.com you can sign up for it. And then we do have like a paid subscription level, uh, in the newsletter because we do virtual events every month. We do yoga for grief support, mindfulness. We're doing something on like nature and grief, um, because we're entering summer. Like the amazing, um, like nature based instructor is gonna be talking to us. Uh, I mean, it's amazing. And, and, and a lot of that supports modern loss' ability to literally do everything for free <laugh> for like a global community. Um, and then I, I, yeah, my second book came out, um, it's called the modern loss handbook and interactive guide to moving through grief and building your resilience.
Rebecca Soffer: I'm really proud of it. Its specific goal is to help you stay connected to yourself and to your person and to the world around you. It's not a workbook, it's not a journal, but you can write in it and you can journal in it in parts, but you can also throw it across the room and not look at it for four months and come back to it. And it's meant to like really help you realize that. Like, as I was saying before, you do have a lot of these abilities inside you, but you just need the right questions and the right prompts and you know, the right challenges. And I try and do it as like your friend who like doesn't know that much more than you, but maybe like has than you mm-hmm <affirmative>, but maybe like has learned a little bit more, but also runs a community and has learned a lot from that community and a lot from like really amazing experts. So it's the book. I really wish that somebody would've handed to me in the first years after my parents' death. Yeah, totally. When I finished writing it, I was my own Guinea pig. And I went through all the things, all the exercises and I was like, oh, it's still germane to me 16 years later. So it's wherever books are sold. Um, and I, I hope you give it a chance to help you or somebody else.
Speaker 3: It's it's really, it's a really great, I can, I can say I was reading it and learning something new and I've been talking about grief for over a decade. So it's a fan. It's an excellent book, no matter where
Doree: You are. Yes. And I can also chime in and say, as someone who has not been talking about grief for over a decade, found it to be super helpful. So definitely check it out. Thank you so much, Rebecca.
Rebecca Soffer: Thank you so much for having me. I feel like this is like honestly the, the hour that I was most looking forward to in my day, my heart rate has gone down. So thank you. Oh,
Speaker 3: Good.
Rebecca Soffer: Thanks for all you do. I love you.
Speaker 3: Oh,
Kate: Doree, Kate, you know, it's funny. We started, we started this episode talking about all this travel stuff and we both had the intention last week of not trying to get overwhelmed with all the like pre vacation work and logistics.
Doree: You know, one thing that we have not mentioned is that I think you and I both have, we have a similar approach to these two weeks where we are cramming a lot of stuff in like that. Every time I start feeling kind of overwhelmed about all the recording that we're doing packed into a very few days is I just keep telling myself, July off July off July off
Kate: <laugh> well, you said that to me. And I was like, oh yes, I'm gonna adopt this mantra because the last two weeks of June are incredibly busy, stressful for me. And I like, I just, there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
Doree: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Kate: And do you know what I did actually do I, someone asked me like about scheduling something in July and I went over into my calendar in July and it was like, so blissfully empty. And I was
Doree: Like, yeah, I deleted all the recordings. <laugh> yes.
Kate: We're gonna make this happen. Yeah. We are our own bosses and we are gonna give ourself this month.
Doree: Yes. I know. I'm really, I'm really excited. So yeah, here we go.
Kate: Do you have an intention for this coming week?
Doree: I mean, what I was also gonna say is that I think in some ways my intention last week was a little premature.
Kate: Mm. Like it's ongoing.
Doree: It's ongoing. Yeah. So I think I need to like extend this intention <laugh> by another week because now I think, I think the last, I think last week I was really focused on like work pre vacation madness, and now I'm kind of like, oh, logistics.
Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative> you have to get all this stuff done kind of at the same time.
Doree: Yes. And there's just there's so there's a lot of moving parts and guess who's in charge of them.
Kate: I'm go. Guess that it's you
Doree: Good. Old? Yep. Good old mom. Mom's in charge of them.
Kate: Oh, what a surprise?
Doree: What a shocker. Um, what about you, Kate?
Kate: So I have an interesting intention this week. This actually comes from a listener where I was, I've been talking about how I felt really kind of down lately and a listener reached out and was like, are you still taking melatonin? Because that has contributed to me feeling really kind of depressed. Wow. I was like, I am still taking melatonin. And I'm also taking, I take these like magnesium sleeping things at night that, that give me, they give me extremely upsetting dreams. And I also noticed I've been waking up and I'm still feeling tired. So I'm thinking I need to take a little break from my sleep supplements.
Doree: So did you see that? Did you see those articles like last week, about how, um, children are taking way too much melatonin?
Kate: I, I think I just saw the headlines. Um, yeah. I, I mean, I, I, I imagine somehow have avoided giving my kids melatonin, but I feel like I am taking too much of it.
Doree: Interesting. Okay. All right. Yeah.
Kate: Well, so that is my intention is to just really try to go to sleep without some sort of sleep aid this week. And just do you have yeah. Just see how it happens, see how it goes. Do
Doree: You have kind of a, a plan any way that you're gonna tweak your routine?
Kate: And now I'm just gonna try to do the things that I know are good for me, which is like, get off my screen, read my book, just close my eyes. If I need to, I could listen to like a little meditation, those sorts of things.
Doree: Okay. That sounds good. I've been doing this really fun thing. The last couple nights where I wake up at like three 30
Kate: Or four. Ooh.
Doree: And I can't fall back asleep until like six. Oh, that's the worst. And then I get like one more hour of sleep
Kate: And then you feel like almost sick all day.
Doree: Yeah. And I like, I just like, don't feel great all day.
Kate: Is it anxiety? Is your body, is something going on that you think is waking you up?
Doree: I mean, this is not that like, this happens occasionally. This is not like mm-hmm, <affirmative> that unusual. I think it's probably partly anxiety. Partly. I think I'm also like, not the deepest sleeper. So if something wakes me up, then I'm just up.
Kate: Oh, same. Yeah.
Doree: You know,
Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Doree: So, yeah. So that's just, that's, that's kind of been a bummer.
Kate: I'm sorry. That's the worst. I, I that's happens to me too where I'm like up, I was up the other night from three to four and I slept from like four to four to six. And it was like, oh, this is not just not gonna feel good today.
Doree: Yeah, totally. Like I don't feel horrible. I think I would feel horrible if I hadn't fallen back asleep at all.
Kate: Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> you know?
Doree: Um, and that was why at like six, I was like, oh my God, I'm so tired. And I just, I need to just try to go to sleep. And then I did, I did go to sleep. All right. Well, Kate, I wish you luck in this detoxing journey,
Kate: I guess. Thank you. And I wish you luck in this. Uh, no, it's okay. No, I think it hasn't been co-opted. You can call this a detoxing journey. It's a, okay. We detox in this.
Doree: Yeah, I think in, and I think in this case, it is, it is apt. You are trying to, it is like wean yourself off something. Anyway, indeed. I won't parse that anymore. Um, thank you, Kate. Thank you listeners.
Kate: And of course story forever 35 is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer it's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thanks for listening.