Episode 218: Everything You Know About Aging is Wrong with Dr. Becca Levy
“As a culture, we do have that ability to have more positive age beliefs.”
- Dr. Becca Levy
Dr. Becca Levy, author of Breaking The Age Code, joins Kate and Doree to discuss the ABC’s of aging, how positive age beliefs can impact physical function, the importance of building meaningful relationships across age and generation, and why “elder speak” needs to stop. Plus, Kate and Doree journey into the perfume scents of the season.
Photo Credit: Julia Gerace
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, and welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I'm Doree Shafrir,
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums
Kate: Before we get into it. We wanna encourage you to visit our website forever 35 podcast for links to everything we mentioned on the show. We're on Twitter at forever 35 pod and on Instagram at forever 35 podcast. And there is a forever 35 Facebook group that you can join. Or the password to enter is serums.
Doree: Indeed, you can also visit our shelves. <laugh> on shelve my shelf, visit our shelves shopmyshelf.us/forever 35, where, um, all of the products we recommend are arranged very like in a very easy to navigate sort of way. Um, I feel like people are often, like, what are your favorite X that's like hard to find on the site and this makes it a little easier. Um, you can also sign up for a newsletter foreverthirtyfivepodcast.com/newsletter. Call or text us at (781) 591-0390 and email us at forever 35 podcast, gmail.com.
Kate: And look, if you li like the show and you listen and you wanna do us a solid, you can leave a serve on apple podcasts, hit us up, smash those stars over on apple podcast. And I'm, I'm begging you today because I have COVID and I'm gonna use this as my sympathy plea. If you feel bad for me today, go smash those stars and leave us interview an apple podcast. It does, it does help people, oh, God, find this show. You know, it's a, it's a nice, it does.
Doree: It does. But Kate,
Kate: Yo,
Doree: You have COVID.
Kate: Oh my God. Do I ever. I am a COVID queen. I, yeah, Doree. I, I flew to New York. Um, I had, I kind of had planned this trip around like a bunch of things. Like my, I had my high school, 25th high school reunion in Massachusetts. And then, and then we had planned a book event around that in Boston. And then I was like, why don't I just say, extend my trip? And I could do a book event in New York and I could go see my favorite band in the whole world, Phish, cuz all these things were kind of happening in the same week. And so I got to New York, I went to see Phish, my gosh, two days later I came down or about three days later I came down with COVID, you know, a as has been documented, like many people have gotten COVID after these Phish shows, I wore my K N 95 through the concert, which I've I've seen Phish.
Kate: Now this is my fourth Phish show in COVID and I wear a K N 95 every time. And I think I got a little, like a little cocky maybe where I was like, most people do not wear masks it's to me that it, it is crazy because I'm like, whoa, we're all in this room. Breathing let's wear masks. But at these shows I've attended and other things I've been to, if masks are not required, most people aren't wearing them, but I keep mine on except when I'm drinking water. Well like jokes on me because I'm, I'm imagining that when I pulled my mask down to drink water, that COVID just slipped right in or who knows. I could have gotten it anywhere. I was on an airplane. I wore my mask, but I still pulled it down to eat or drink. Like I was all, I was in an airport. I was on a subway. Like so, you know, masks are like condoms where they're like super effective, but not foolproof. You know,
Doree: <laugh> totally. Oh my gosh.
Kate: So I believe in masks and I will continue to wear them. But I obviously didn't, wasn't a hundred percent because I was drinking water during this phish concert. And I'm assuming that's probably where I got it. So I've stayed in New York in a hotel rather than obviously I canceled everything I was going to do. And I had to kind of push my flight back to LA. So I'm quarantining in a hotel which like could be a million times worse.
Doree: Right?
Kate: Totally. I'm in a freaking hotel. I've got enough liquid. I have access to food. You sent me cookies.
Doree: You know what, I did send you cookies.
Kate: I mean, I haven't lost,
Doree: I did
Kate: Taste or smell. Yeah. Those cookies are stories sent me Levein bakery cookies. And they're the, they're the size of big Macs Doree.
Doree: <laugh> I know they're very large.
Kate: Yeah. They're amazing. So I've been like nibbling on those. So I am. I'm doing okay. Um, I'm happy once. I'm a little bit more like coherent. I can go into like my symptoms and also what I've done to try to take care of myself. I am on paxlovid the prescription antiviral Medication. Um, and listen, I have to say thank you to Doree because she has really picked up the slack while I have been laid up in bed, watching many TV shows. So thank you Doree for you've just like stepped in. You're like sit down, I've got this. And I was like, thank God because I can't think straight.
Doree: I've barely done any anything, but I mean, I am happy. I've been able to do this for you. I'm glad we don't both have COVID at the same time. I know that when I probably inevitably get COVID you will,
Kate: I will
Doree: Also step up.
Kate: I mean, I have to say though, like this doesn't feel good and I presumably have a pretty, you know, what's called a mild case. I'm not, I'm I'm fully boosted and vaxed I have the antiviral medication and it doesn't just feel like a flu. I feel like there's a lot of, kind of like there's in my brain because so many people are like, it feels like a cold or the flu you'll be fine, which like, I do have a lot of those symptoms, but I am so exhausted and have such weird brain fog and I wasn't expecting that kind of like brain fogginess. And so, you know, I know the, a weird thing about COVID is it's different for everybody. And so it's so hard to predict.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, that was the, that was the thing that I, that was like my big takeaway when Matt had it, you know, a year and a half, not like over a year ago. Um, just the fatigue. The fatigue was like unbelievable. And like, I feel like people, when you talk about being sick people, don't people sort of like discount fatigue. but like his fatigue was so intense that I was like, oh, this, this feels different from other like cold and flu. Like what you're talking about. Like he would walk from like the bedroom to his office and be like, so exhausted.
Kate: Okay. Yes. This is what I'm feeling like when I get up to go get water, I'm like, Ugh.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: I'm so tired. Yes. It's really weird. I, yeah, I wasn't,
Doree: It's really weird.
Kate: It's it's so, you know, I, I mean, I just didn't, I didn't quite have a understanding of what that was gonna be like, so it is a little, it is weird. Um, but I also, you know, I'm feeling pretty good, like, in all things considered. I'm sure you can hear in my, I said I'm still very like nasally.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Anyway, I, one thing that has been a plus is that I have not lost taste or scent, which..
Doree: that Is a plus.
Kate: I hope it doesn't go away because I've been spritzing myself with my perfume just to like keep me feeling happy. And I'm like, I'm excited that you have perfumes to talk about today.
Doree: I do. Okay. I do have perfumes to talk about today. So, um, wait, which perfume are you spritzing. Okay.
Kate: So I bought myself a travel scent of Tom Ford, sole Blanc. And at first I was like, I don't like this, but I had brought it
Doree: In that voice.
Kate: It's kind of in that voice. And then I, I brought it and then I was like stuck in this room and I, every time I go in the bathroom, I just spray it to like, I don't know, feel something in my life. So now it's kind of growing on me and I actually think I like it. So I'm curious and it, and I think it could be a good summer scent. I don't have you ever smelled this one?
Doree: No. What are the notes?
Kate: All right. So over in Sephora, it says it is quote, an addictive solar, floral Amber and Coco de mer infused perfume. And some of the notes it says are cardamom. And ylang ylang
Doree: I think it's Lang Lang, right?
Kate: I don't, I, I, I
Doree: Who knows.
Kate: I truly don't know. And today is not the day I'm gonna get it right. I gotta say no Lang Lang, but it's um, I love an Amber. I used to wear like a Prada, Amber scent. So,
Doree: Oh,
Kate: this Is growing on me. This is growing on me. It's a little sweet, but I like it. Okay. I'd be curious if you, if you would like this one, it's, it's a little in the, like my like sunscreen perfume family that I love so much.
Doree: Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. Beachy.
Kate: I love a beach. I love a beachy scent.
Doree: You love a Beach. You love a beach.
Kate: What I wouldn't do to be on a beach.
Doree: Kate Spencer loves a beach
Kate: In theory. I don't love sand in my butt, but I do love a beach.
Doree: I mean, that's fair.
Kate: So taking on Your journey.
Doree: Yeah. So I've been talking recently about how I felt like my DS & Durga radio Bombay, which I love to be clear, like felt a little heavy for spring slash summer. And I was interested in perhaps acquiring a new spring slash summer scent. But then I was like, oh wait, I have all these other perfumes that I just haven't worn in so long. Why don't I see if one of them can kind of scratch the itch that I'm feeling,
Kate: You shopped your closet.
Doree: I shopped my, I shopped my bathroom and I've tried almost, I think almost all of my old perfumes, Gucci bloom, Tom Ford classic blush classic Doree, Tom Ford. Santal blush the Kai rose O de parfum.
Kate: Their stuff is nice.
Doree: And the Chloe O depar fume, I also had an almost empty bottle of a perfume. I used to wear all the time, which is, um, Killian liaison de typical me it's called, oh,
Kate: Oh,
Doree: It's a, it's a very dramatic perfume. Um, there wasn't even enough to like spray some on, but I could, I, I caught a whiff and I was like, oh yeah, this is a, this is a good perfume. I don't think it's exactly what I'm looking for right now. But
Kate: You
Doree: It's a nice perfume.
Kate: You tend to seem just by judging by this collection, like you like a soft floral, would that be accurate? I
Doree: Think, I, I think I like a soft floral, but I also like, like a, a, like I like a sandal.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: So, yeah, but I Al so there's also another perfume that I actually think is the one that I really want that, um, has been sort of like my white will
Kate: <laugh>.
Doree: Okay. Um, and it is Eric Buder, bows, celestial, Jasmine perfume.
Kate: Oh, this sounds well. You okay? We both love the smell of Jasmine, but it's very hard to capture in a sense. It is
Doree: Very hard to capture. Okay. So
Kate: Who is this fellow?
Doree: Eric about? Like got his start as a florist. He's like a florist to the stars, but then he also has a line of perfumes and candles and like, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and this perfume is out of stock everywhere. Oh. So I nightmare don't know. I don't know if like, he's just not making it anymore. He, the candle is available
Kate: And you love that candle. Right?
Doree: I I've never owned that candle.
Kate: Oh, because these are these so are prices. Theyre
Doree: Expensive, expensive. They're really expensive. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I've never, I've never taken the UNG because I've been like, Ooh, this is this little expensive. It's like, it's pricey this stuff. Very pricey. Um, and so I've just been like, eh, and I feel like surely he cannot be the only one with an amazing Jasmine perfume, but I actually think his, his is amazing. Jasmine perfume might be the best Jasmine perfume, and I should have bought it when I had the chance. And now perhaps it has gone forever,
Kate: Which is the worst feeling.
Doree: So yeah. Can we get that's where I'm at? Can
Kate: We get Eric, but Baba,
Doree: I said Buder BA it could be, but BA I don't,
Kate: You, you know, I've been sitting here trying to Google his name and I literally spelled it B O O D E R B O w. That's not how it's spelled, but he did finally come up.
Doree: Okay, good. Um, yeah. Even like his discovery kit of perfume is out of stock. Eric, very suspicious. If you ask me,
Kate: Let's get Eric on the whole
Doree: Right now. Wait a second. I'm looking at his, I wonder if he stopped making perfume because all of his perfume, pretty much all of his perfume is sold out.
Kate: This is very, this is stressful. This is not good.
Doree: There's one, there's like two that are available anyway. Okay. This is a mystery for another time, but I am here to say that my old, my old standby, Chloe,
Kate: I love it. The classic
Doree: Chloe O de parfum. I had, I think I mentioned before I had like a roller ball that I'd never opened. Um, just waiting for me and I opened it right up and I was like, oh yeah, this perfume smells so nice. I'm wearing it right now.
Kate: I love that. Smell on other people. I, it doesn't work with me for whatever reason mm-hmm <affirmative>, but it is, it is like my favorite scent to catch a whiff of. I absolutely adore it.
Doree: It's really nice. So it, um, the key are P rose, honey and cedarwood.
Kate: Here's a question for you.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: When you think about wearing a scent, are you wearing it solely for yourself and your own enjoyment? Are you wearing it so that other people smell you and you smell good? Or is it a combination of both or ni or none of those?
Doree: Um, I would say it is largely for me. Like, I like smell. I like smelling away that is pleasing to myself. But however, I'm also, like, I do try to be sensitive to the fact that like, not everyone likes perfume.
Kate: Yes. I know.
Doree: So, you know, some of like the heavier sense, I think like, if I'm gonna be like in a, like, let's just say, I'm gonna be like in an enclosed office space or like, if you, and say you and I were in like a podcast, like a soundproof airless podcast studio all day, I would not put perfume on.
Kate: Yeah. I'm with you. And actually, I remember, I know for me when I was pregnant, I had such adverse reaction to sense. And I remember you did because I stopped wearing for a while. Cause it did. So it was so nauseating.
Doree: It was so nauseating. Yeah. So, you know, I, but like working from home, so I guess, oh yeah, this, this does answer your question because like I've mostly been putting it on knowing that the only people I'm gonna see are like my husband, my son and my son's nanny, like all
Kate: Day and
Doree: Don't
Kate: Forget
Doree: Your
Kate: Dog
Doree: And my dog and like no offense to all of them, but like, I don't really care how they, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm putting it on for them. Um, so I guess it's mostly for me. I mean, I definitely feel like there was a time when, like, I feel like per like putting on perfume, putting on the right perfume can definitely make you feel more confident. It can make you feel sexier. There's definitely like phons. I think in perfume that, you know, are alluring mm-hmm <affirmative>. I mean, I just remember as a tween and teen, that intoxicating smell of your car, Noar on a member of the opposite sex was intoxicating when I was 13. Yes, it was.
Kate: I had a weird thing happen to me recently where, when I was 15, I was in love with a French boy named RO and he smelled so good and we never like kissed, but I was desperately in love with him. I have Googled him. He's a DJ now he's still cute. And, but I can remember the scent of how he smelled so good. And he wore the specific clone. And very recently I was sniping things at like Bloomingdale's and I think I found it and the, Hmm, I just randomly sprayed this scent and it smelled, I could like viscerally. Remember, it was just interesting to me that almost 30. What is it? 25 years later. Almost 30 years later, the smell of this person came back. So distinctly, like my muscle memory still remembered it. Yeah,
Doree: Totally.
Kate: That was very powerful for me. I was, I was intrigued. Hmm.
Doree: Yeah. Like sense like that can really just like send us back to a place.
Kate: Yeah. It's very soothing. I mean, I, that's why I like how my baby blanket smells.
Doree: Mm
Kate: That's why I don't wash my baby blanket very often.
Doree: <laugh>
Kate: Cause I don't like to lose the smell.
Doree: Oh gosh. That's really funny. Um, well Kate,
Kate: Yes, we
Doree: Should. We should take a little, but before we do, let's introduce our very impressive guest
Kate: Doree. I'm gonna hand the mic to you since my brain is made of mush to let you introduce, but we did this interview thankfully, before I got COVID. And so I, we did was very present and enjoyed it very much.
Doree: Um, yeah. So we talked to Dr. Beck levy, who is an award-winning Yale professor of psychology and global health and the author of the new book breaking the age code, which is a fascinating book, um, that it was one of those books. And I think I mentioned this in the interview, but like it was one of those books where I was reading out was like, no, mm-hmm, <affirmative> like, this cannot be true. There's no way this can't be true. And then it would be like, this is the study that we did to prove that this is true. And like, it's just, it's it, it will really, I think challenge a lot of notions you have about aging. Um, anyway, Dr. Levy received her PhD in psychology from Harvard and held a national Institute on aging postal fellowship at the division of aging and department of social medicine at Harvard medical school. And she has given invited testimony before the United States Senate on the effects of ageism contributed to brief submitted to the United States Supreme court in age discrimination cases and participated in United nations discussions of ageism she's credited with creating a field of study that focuses on how positive and negative age stereotypes affect the health of older individuals.
Doree: It was just a, it was a fascinating conversation. It's definitely shifted my perspective on aging for me personally. And then also I think like how I view older people.
Kate: Yeah. It, it really was. I dunno, it, it caused me to get a little introspective about how I feel about totally age and the way I, I treat others. So it was really
Doree: Interesting. Yeah. All right. So we are gonna take a short break and we will be right back. We are so excited to have Dr. Becca levy here with us. Uh, Dr. Levy, welcome to forever 35.
Dr. Becca Levy: Thank you. Lovely to join you.
Doree: Yeah. I
Kate: Feel like the title of our show is especially appropriate because it's a tongue and cheek joke about never aging and you are here to talk to us all about aging and ageism and age beliefs. I'm so excited.
Dr. Becca Levy: Oh, good. Yes. I'm excited to talk to you.
Doree: Um, well we do like to start by asking our guests, um, about a self-care practice that they have. So is there anything that you do, uh, that you would consider self-care that you wanna talk about?
Dr. Becca Levy: Yes. I would say dear during the pandemic and all of the many zoom interactions I've had, I find that removing myself from videos and zoom and just taking a breath and going outside and getting some fresh air in my lungs and not having virtual surface in front of me actually seen real trees and real grass and real outside, um, can really clear my mind. I feel like that's needed <laugh> yeah. During this time of all the, all the zoom.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. It's a real palette cleanser. It's so interesting. It's like, we've been almost living in the, metaverse just in the last two, you years on all, all on all our screens. It's like distorted how we almost look at everything in a way.
Dr. Becca Levy: Exactly. Yes. I find, yeah, the cleansing is, seems so essential.
Kate: Do you think just, this is, this is just kind of coming out of the top of my head. So bear with me Dr. Levy. But do you think that our, the last two years that we've spent on zoom has impacted ageism? Like do, do you think there is a connection to how we interact, how we treat people who are older than us and how also we view our own aging? Mm
Dr. Becca Levy: That's interesting. I did hear that there has been an increase in plastic surgery associated with people seeing their faces all the time on wow. On zoom, which is disturbing. So yeah, I mean, I think that is taking in messages about what we should see in front of us. And, um, so I think that, yeah, that does point to perhaps the need for intervention so that we celebrate aging and don't feel like scene of reflection is something that causes fear and, um, yeah. I, people feeling like they need to counter what they're seeing when they see themselves
Doree: Ahead. Kate <laugh>
Kate: Okay. Sorry. Sorry. I can't see you. So I don't know. Who's about to win the mouth. I wanted to just first, uh, start by asking you to kind of just summarize what your new book is about. It's called breaking the age code. This is your area of expertise and research for our listeners who aren't familiar with your work. Could you give us just a brief over review about what you cover in the book?
Dr. Becca Levy: Sure. Yeah. So the book is an examination of the impact of these cultural age, age beliefs that, um, so we know there's a lot of messages about aging that can exist in every culture and the book examines, the impact that these age beliefs can have on our aging health. And it looks at both the, what happens on a societal level and what we can do as individuals to take control over the, that age messaging and, uh, bring about change and improvement in aging health.
Kate: This is so fascinating. So, so what your research has found is that there's literally a correlation and please correct me if I'm misinterpreting a correlation between how we view our own aging and stereotypes are in aging versus how we actually, that man, how it manifests in our physical bodies, is that correct?
Dr. Becca Levy: Yes. So we know that our aging health and longevity, we know that only about 25% is determined by our genes. So the other 75% is due to environmental and psychological factors that contribute to aging, health and longevity. And one of those aspects of that environment are these age beliefs, which is what I've been documenting and examining how those can actually contribute to aging health.
Doree: Can you, can you just talk a little bit more about age beliefs? Um, what is an age belief? And, you know, you, you go into this a lot in your book, but I guess if you could talk a little bit about how age beliefs differ, uh, among different cultures.
Dr. Becca Levy: Sure. Yes. That's a good question. So the research behind the book actually began when I had a chance to visit another culture. So when I was still in graduate school, I had the opportunity to go to Japan and I went there on a fellowship with the goal of trying to understand why Japan has the longest lifespan in the world. And what I noticed when I arrived there is how differently it seemed like the older people were treated from what I was used to seeing in the United States. So I had observed a lot of, um, examples of ageism in the United States. And when I arrived in Japan, I was struck by how older people were more integrated in the culture. And there was many examples of older people being celebrated in different kinds of ways. So for example, on the, on television, you know, when I turned it on, there were centenarians and super centenarians who were celebrated as these like rock stars on, on television. And they had this national holiday celebrating older people. And so I became really interested in this idea that there, that the age beliefs that exist in that culture, which celebrate aging a lot more than, than what we tend to do, that those age beliefs might be contributing to their, their longer lifespan.
Doree: And I guess I just wanna, like, see if we can dig a little bit deeper into this. Like what, what, what would an example of kind of a negative age belief be?
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah. So one of the most common negative age beliefs that I write about in the book is this belief that all types of cognition decline in all P people as they get older. And we know from the science that that just isn't the case. So we know that there's lots of different types of memory. So there's, for example, there's procedural memory like learning, remembering how to ride a bike. So that tends to stay pretty stable over the lifespan. And there's other types of memory that actually tend to improve in later life or types of cognition. So for example, there's a cog, cognitive skill of thinking about thinking or, you know, metacognition, and that actually tends to get better in later life. So there, so I think it's really important to, uh, think about the different age place. And actually that's one of the things I, I really enjoyed in writing the book is I listed out the 14 of the most common, negative age beliefs. And then I investigated the science and almost all of the science goes against the negative beliefs. And not only that, but there's strengths that come out when you look at what the real science is that actually goes sort of ammunition to counter the negative age belief, and actually think about ways we may have growth and, and skills in later life.
Kate: It's so interesting because you, you, you, your work and what you're saying, like deeply challenges, ingrained beliefs that we have about aging. And I think I'm, I'm speaking specifically, you know, coming from my own cultural background as an American and a white person, all the, all, all the things that I bring to the table. But what do you think it is like specifically about American culture that we have focused so deeply on like valuing youth and resenting and, and fearing and, uh, trivializing aging.
Dr. Becca Levy: Yes. So I don't think, I mean, I don't think there's anything intrinsic about, about our culture. I mean, we, I think we actually did one study that we looked at age beliefs over time in the United States and found that looking at this 200 year time period, that we've actually gone from having really positive age beliefs to unfortunately much more negative age beliefs. So I think as a culture, we do have that ability to have more positive age beliefs. And we also know within the, within the United States, there's sort of subgroups of people who have much more positive age beliefs and people who are able to navigate some of the negative messages. So, um, so, so there's a lot of ability to still have positive age beliefs in our country. But, um, yeah, but I think some of the factors that might contribute to that growing negativity is, well, one is that we've gone from being one, one of the most age integrated cultures to one of the most age segregated cultures, unfortunately. And I think ageism can contribute to age segregation or separation of the generations and that in turn can increase ageism. So, um, I think that's one of the factors and then also the increase, um, visibility of the anti-aging movement and all of the advertisements that actually have a profit from promoting, uh, fear of aging and negative images of aging, I think unfortunately has also increased in our country.
Doree: I mean, some of the studies that you pointed to were just like, my mind was really blown, you know, or some of the, and some of the statistics like dementia is far times more common in the us than in India. I mean, wow. <laugh>, you know. Yeah. Um, or, you know, at, when you were talking about how positive age beliefs impact physical function, if you have a positive, if you have a positive age stereotype, you have a 44% greater likelihood of complete recovery from your disability. I mean, first of all, like the kind of, I guess the sort of, you know, cynic in my brain is saying, well, like, isn't this just kind of the Norman Vincent peel, like power positive thinking, like, you know, we're just, if you don't think positively then bad things are gonna happen to you. And, and doesn't that kind of put all of the onus on the individual. Um, so there was part of me that was kind of, <laugh> saying like, isn't that isn't that problematic? And then another part of me saying like, wow, this is really amazing. Like how can we kind of harness this? So I don't know, can you help me sort of reconcile both of those, both of those things, right.
Dr. Becca Levy: Well, one, well, one point to make is that we know it's not just positive thinking. So it actually, it's very specific to these cultural messages about aging. So in our studies, we adjust for sort of overall positive thinking. So we know like in our longitudinal studies, we know that above and beyond positive thinking, it's these age messages that we take in from society. Those are the beliefs that impact aging health. And we also know from some of our experimental studies where we randomly assign people to either a positive age belief or a negative age belief that it's the age beliefs themselves that are having the impact on these different kinds of health outcomes. And we know that we get them from the culture. So we know there's quite a bit of difference between cultures and the kinds of age beliefs. So I think the source is these cultural beliefs. That's where they come from. Um, and I think, and it, and it, and somebody could be, yeah, could have a very different kind of positivity or negativity. Somebody could be pretty grumpy and still, you know, taken, um, positive messages about their culture and, and show benefits. So, you know, I think, I think that the source is these cultural messages.
Kate: So fascinat I'm like, I honestly feel like my mind is, is, is blown a little bit what's interesting to me is that it seems like it, this, the idea of ageism is so systemic that it, it it's gonna fall on the, the idea of changing an individual's age belief versus changing a cultural age. Belief is vast. Like, is, is there, is there actual hope for there to be a shift? Do you think
Dr. Becca Levy: On a cultural level you're asking. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's, it's been interesting, just kind of reading your work and thinking about how I practice ageism <laugh>, you know, and the things that I say and do and how that's just a, you know, I'm playing a small role in a larger, you know, systemic message. Um, and so I'm just kind of curious what your thoughts are and how we begin to shift that. Cause it seems like it would benefit all of us.
Dr. Becca Levy: Exactly. Yes. I think you're so right. And I, I think, and I think it's really easy for us all to practice little acts of ages and living in a, an ageist world. It's, it's almost impossible not to take in these negative messages unless we become aware of them and try to act actively control them and shift them. So I think on an individual level, there are things we, we do know that there are tools that people can take on, but to your point, I think you're exactly right, that we really need to think about structural changes to overcome ageism on a cultural level. And I, I do think there is hope. I think there is that, that we can actually do that in, in the book. I present some ideas about, I present a blueprint on combating structural ageism, and it's based in part on other movements of groups that have been marginalized that have tried to counter discrimination that have had some success in our country. And so there's really, uh, lessons that we can learn from those groups. And I also think that there's a growing awareness of the ageism, and there's also signs that as a culture, we're taking steps that are getting us close to a tipping point where I hopefully we will see an age liberation movement of people, of all ages coming together, fighting for age justice. So I, I think there's hope on the horizon that, that, that is starting to happen and hopefully will happen very soon.
Kate: We talk a lot about like self care and beauty on forever 35 and a big part of the beauty industry is this focus on anti-aging. And that's obviously a word that's thrown out a lot as a description of products. And I, I would love to get your thoughts about the role that the beauty industry plays in kind of perpetuating ageism and how a, a, an individual, especially someone who's getting older can, can kind of work through that because the, the pressure to maintain physical youth is relentless. And I see this now, you know, every year I get a little bit older and it becomes more and more, uh, like pushed in my face.
Dr. Becca Levy: Right? Exactly. I, yeah, I think there's a lot of messaging of the so-called anti-aging industry. And even the, the terminology of anti-aging is like the whole idea that we wanna fight aging, that it's something bad that it's the enemy, rather than something that has qualities that we might wanna embrace. And there might be beauty in many different forms at many different times in the life cycle. That wouldn't it be great if we embraced it in all of its many forms as, as we see changes as people go through those different parts of the life cycle. Uh, so I, yeah, I think that, unfortunately, this, a lot of the advertisements around this multi-billion dollar anti-aging industry are based on trying to promote negative age beliefs and fear of aging and fear of a future aging self. So it would be great if there was a shift in the advertisement to sort of embrace many different visions of, of, of, uh, of beauty and different times in the life cycle. Um, and there was much of, of an emphasis of fighting aging, but rather embracing it.
Doree: Can you describe, you know, we touched on this a little bit, um, already, but could you describe what that looks like in some other cultures? I mean, you talk about this a little bit in your book, but I guess for the benefit of our listeners, like what does that actually look and sound like? Because when you, when you described it, like, it, it, I did, I kind of really stopped and thought about it and was like, oh, that, that would make a difference if <laugh>, you know, if people were described that way.
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah. So you're asking what what's happening in some of these age positive cultures. Exactly.
Doree: Yeah.
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah. So that's a good question. So why of the examples that, um, something that I learned about in writing the book that I really enjoyed was this example of the friendship bench, uh, in Zimbabwe. So this is this culture that is thought of as very age positive that embraces the older members of their culture. And there's this group of grandmothers who are in Zimbabwe, who have come together to, uh, try to improve the mental health of their community. And they, the culture itself embraces older people. Um, and the grandmothers are really respected. So they meet people of all different ages on these benches and ask them about what kind of mental health problems or challenge as they're having and listen to their stories and share advice. And so the grandmothers, I think, are respected in the culture as being, you know, examples of, of respect and wisdom, and they're given this role. And then they in turn, um, are embracing, improving the views of aging of the culture, and then they have health be benefits. And so it's sort of this cycle of positive age beliefs and a culture that embraces aging that kind of goes back and forth and is reinforcing.
Doree: I mean, it does seem like, well, just kind of based on what you just said and, and what you write about in the book, a lot of this seems to come down to, um, like exposure across generations, right? So like mul just having friends of different ages being in households, you know, multi-generational households. Um, it, it does occur to me like in the United States. I think people are so siloed. Um, and that can, I never thought about it as contributing to ageism per se, but the way you kind of laid that out, made me really think about that. And you know, who in my life, who I see on a daily or weekly or monthly basis is outside of my, you know, five to 10 years within my age and not, you know, there's not that many people I live far from my family also.
Doree: So, you know, I don't even see like my parents who, you know, are older than me. So then did really make me think about just the ways that our society and the, you know, what is emphasized in our society. Kate, who did we interview? Oh, it was Katherine J geezer, jeer Morton about the nuclear family. Um, we, we interviewed another woman who kind of use that the, the American emphasis on the nuclear family. Um, and the way it's kind of inextricably tied up with capitalism has like, contributed to a lot of our society's ills. And, um, I had, I had like similar thoughts as I was reading your book that, you know, instead of emphasizing multi-generational household to our society emphasizes this like very small nuclear family. And I don't know, I'm sort of rambling, but I just, you know, I, it, it, it really re a lot of what you said really resonated with me and made me think about, um, how sort of, uh, confined, I guess my world is in terms of the ages of people in my world.
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're definitely not alone in as what you described as something that I experienced. So somebody suggested to me this exercise of writing down your five closest friends, and then writing down their age, think about how close they are in your, to your actual age. And so when I did it, I found it, yeah, just by everybody I wrote was within an age a year or two of my, my age. And it was eye opening to me because I, I realized yeah. That I wasn't bringing in people of, of different generations that I had these meaningful, like friendships with. And, um, and I think, I think it's something though that we can actively work on. So, I mean, we have, as you pointed out, gone from, you know, being a, a very age integrated culture to a very age segregated culture, but we can work on building those meaningful, uh, relationships, you know, across generations by doing different activities like yoga and book clubs. And it, you know, could be virtual, could be in person. But I, I think there are lots of ways of thinking about shared common in interest that could bring people together of different ages.
Doree: Yeah, for sure. Um, so it was very, very thought provoking for me. Okay.
Speaker 4: Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Doree: Okay. We're back.
Kate: The thing that really stuck out to me was like how we speak, uh, how younger generations speak about older folks. And, and just, there was an example, given I think one of the, think one of the pieces I was reading about how we speak to older people about tech, and if they're excluded from the conversation based on, you know, that that is based on a presumption that they won't understand that that's just ages and perpetuating itself. And I'm interested in, in how we change our own narrative and how we speak, not just about aging, but how we speak to older people.
Dr. Becca Levy: Right. That's yeah. That's a good question. And there's you, um, there's this phenomenon called elder speak, which it's very easy to slide into, which is the tendency to talk to older people as if, almost as if they're infants or children, or like the same language you would use to talk to a pet, you know, so these talking in this loud simplified language and, um, and sort of a sing song. And I, you know, and I find sometimes when I'm interviewing older people, I actually find myself changing my, the way that I'm speaking Uhhuh, um, and actually adopting some of this elder speak language. And, um, and, but so I, you know, but what I've found is if I, if I find myself speaking in this slow thing, song way that I can stop myself and stay, okay, well, how would I talk to a peer?
Dr. Becca Levy: How would I talk to somebody that, you know, that I'm close to in, in just a, a normal way? And you can, you can change that. So I think it's an example of, of a way, a way that this negative messaging can impact us without our awareness and can actually change how we're behaving, but it's something that when we increase our awareness of we can shift. And so I think that's really the important message of some of my research is that even though these processes processes can occur without our awareness and actually impact our behavior, we can do something about it and we can make shifts.
Doree: Yeah. Actually along those lines. Um, can you talk about the ABC E method?
Dr. Becca Levy: Sure. Yes. So thank you for asking about that. <laugh> so, um, so for the book breaking the age code, I tried to think about a, some methods, some everyday, um, exercises people could undertake that could strengthen positive age beliefs. So until we bring about structural changes, until we get rid of some of the systemic ageism that we were talking about earlier, I think it's, um, important to think about the skills that we can work on ourselves. And so according to the method a is awareness, and that's increasing awareness of both our own age beliefs, and also these age beliefs, age messaging that exist in everyday life that we all encounter as we go about our daily daily routines. Um, the B stands for blame or shifting blame. So understanding the cause of, of challenges life, and actually seeing that it's not aging itself sometimes, but it's actually the society that we're in. It's the culture that can impact some of our aging health that we, if we can elevate that in our awareness and, um, notice the causes that can help bring about change. Uh, and the third, the C is for challenge. And it's really important to think about how to challenge some of these negative messages, both on a individual level. And also as on a structural level, on a societal level,
Kate: I'm, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm just reflecting on like my own behavior and also my own perception of aging. And I'm, I'm thinking specifically, like, you know, my mom died when she was younger. And so I tend to go into this idea of aging. It's like a little bit of a doomsday scenario. And so it's interesting just to hear, just to read your work and to hear you speak and, and think about what it would actually mean to change my own perception of what it means to get older. I don't know. I I'm, I'm spitballing here because this is kind of popping up in my brain, but I just think it's so fascinating.
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah. Thank you. And, and I think, I mean, I think what you're getting at is, is really important because I mean, we know that our beliefs about aging, we take in as young as age three, and then, you know, they're reinforced in a lot of different ways is in our culture and it can impact us without our awareness. So to actually shift those age beliefs from messages of decline to message of potential growth and thriving takes some work, but it's work that we can do. And, and my research has shown that it is possible to shift those age beliefs at, at any age.
Doree: Um, you know, we got a, we got an email, someone wrote into the podcast recently, um, and they told us that they are 42 and that their daughter is nearly five. And that when this listener picked their daughter up from school, their daughter said to her mom, I wish you looked the Spencer's mom. And when they asked their daughter what she meant, she said, um, she told her mom, well, you look old mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and you know, this kind of sent this person into a real kind of tailspin. Um, and so I guess I'm putting this to you. <laugh> how would, how would you respond to this person and like you, cuz it just reminded me that when you said that these, um, these things started at age three, I mean this, you know, the, as child is four. Yeah. Um, so I'm wondering, you know, how would you respond to this person and how I have a three year old, you know, what are some things that I can be doing? I'm also an older mom, you know? So what are some things that I can be doing to kind of like counteract all of this ageism in our society?
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah, that's, that's a great question and something that I thought a lot about when I had young daughters and tried to think about how to help them navigate all the, the negative messaging that's that's out there about aging. Um, and so with my own daughters, what I tried to do was to try to curate some of the age messaging they were encountering. So there are these great lists of literature, age, positive children's books and videos, um, and things that they can stream that, that present diverse, uh, images of aging and has age positive part aging is, is part of it. Um, but also at the same time, even with all that curate, there's all much only so much protection that we can do of our kids. I mean, there's bound to be message negative messages of aging that they encounter in, in different places. Um, and so I think that the ne the second part of it is to give our kids the skills to notice some of the negative messaging.
Dr. Becca Levy: And then when they see it, just question it and try to think about, could there be a more positive, you know, portrayal of aging that they see, like in, in some video or cartoon or our book, and try to get them to think like, okay, well, what is that image of the grandma that's presented? And like, does it have to be that she's presented as such a, you know, negative force or the older woman, like in, uh, Hansel, Andre who fats up the kids and wants to eat them? <laugh>, you know, like, do we really need a message like that that's presented about an older woman? You know? So I think that act of questioning something that kids are actually really good at, I'm sure you've noticed <laugh>.
Kate: Yeah. Hell yeah. I, another Doree, your, your question about that listener made me think of another kind of recurring theme that we often hear for, from people who listen to our podcast, which is like, am I too old to do this thing? Or like, I basically just I've run out of time. Like I, you know, this kind of feeling that like, well, now I'm too old. And I, I, I don't, I think this is part of ageism in a way, this idea that at a certain point we can't do the things we wanna do anymore. Like time is run out on us for whatever reason. Um, and I'm wondering if that comes up in any of the, the research or the conversations that you have and how we can change our thinking on, um, on that, on that part of life.
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah. So you're giving us something really important. So this idea of giving up and not feeling like one has the ability to keep on growing and, um, in a certain area. And I think that is definitely one of the mechanisms. One of the reasons that these, you know, negative age beliefs that exist in our culture can be so damn is that I think it makes people feel like they, um, can't necessarily improve in, in that area. And I think one of the reasons that when we can shift to positive age, least, one of the reasons that it can have benefits is it can bring about this added sense of purpose added sense of will to live added sense of, um, embracing I aspects of, of life. So I, I think it can really make a big change and those changes in thinking can then in turn, bring about health benefits.
Kate: Hmm.
Doree: Um, oh, go ahead.
Kate: I, I was just curious where, um, in addition to this idea of the way that we, we kind of culturally think, think about aging and individually, think about it. What are some other factors at play? I mean, there there's, I, I imagine, and I know you've talked about this, you know, various, various intersections of privilege that kind of come into play with how, how we age, even in terms of just access to care or access to different kinds of messaging. So wondering if you could touch on, on that at all.
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah. So I think you're right. I mean, it's certainly a lot easier to age with adequate resources and, and privilege. And I think, um, unfortunately one of the, um, negative impacts of ageism is the increased poverty in, in later life that we see, you know, in many, many parts of our country and other countries. Um, so I think, uh, what, what you're getting at too is this idea of intersectionality is so important. So it's, we know that, you know, people have lots of different identities and when those identities, um, don't bring about disadvantages and they accumulate in, in, in later life, they can have compound negative effects. So I think, I think recognizing the different ways that those marginalities can come together, um, is really important. But you know, at the same time though, there are there, there's some people that I talked to in the book who talk about how they've used some challenges in earlier life as place to learn some skills that can actually help them encountering ageism. So there, there, it can be some ways that people develop, develop strengths, but for the most part, the compounding of disadvantage is the real problem in this country.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: I'm curious, um, in your teaching of under graduates, um, you know, I think my impression of gen Z is that they're just like so much more aware of social issues and, you know, um, body, like they they're body positive and they, like, they're just so much more aware. Does that also translate, like, does that also translate into awareness of ageism, um, or is that a blind spot, do you think?
Dr. Becca Levy: I think, well, I found that a lot of the young, bright, bright students that, that I work with often, they, so when I teach classes, I find that often at the beginning classes, students are not that aware of ageism operating in society, but I find that, and I, you know, I think part of that is what we were talking about because we've become such an age segregated society. So they actually do just, don't have a lot of opportunities to witness how older people are treated in society and some of the ways they're marginalized, but I think once they become aware of the ageism and learn about the different examples and they learn the tools to recognize it, they become much more aware of it and much, you know, very angry about it. And also some of, um, examples that you're talking about of increased of that, of the gen Zs be being, um, becoming very aware of the need for social movements to improve society. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, they, I find that they want it, uh, apply that to, to the aging community as well. And so there's, um, I think, which I think is very hopeful that they could become all in, you know, an age liberation movement, if we get them all on board and aware <laugh>
Doree: Yes. <laugh>.
Kate: I thought there was, um, in your, in your piece, in the New York times recently, I was, I was telling Doree the comments were so fascinating. So many people were describing just being sick and called boomers and just sick of the way that culturally their generation is talked about. And it was a, it was just a moment of reflection for me as someone who constantly, you know, yams on about my boomer dad and makes comments about boomers, uh, just that feeling of like, it sucks. It sucks to be treated this way. And I, I, I, I don't know if that's specific to that generation or if it's, uh, always kind of been this way and how we talk about kind of the eldest in our society, but it was just very eyeopening to read their reactions. I thought it was really interesting. I don't know if you've seen them at all.
Dr. Becca Levy: I have, yes. I agree. There were some really thoughtful thought provoking examples that people were giving of experie ageism and a lot of different aspects from, you know, the dentist, uh, going to the dentist to, there was one woman who talked about how she had a pain in her ankle and she went to see the doctor. Yeah. And then the doctor said, oh, it's just aging arthritis. And she said, you know, it's really bothering me. And then they took an x-ray and she had a broken ankle, you know, so yeah. Yeah. There was just these example that were yeah. Very, um, disturbing, but it was great that they were they're sharing them. I was really impressed by how candid people were being about their experiences.
Doree: Yeah. This does feel like a conversation that is so overdue, um, for us to be having, so thank you for starting this conversation. I'm sure it doesn't feel like you're starting, you know, you've been doing this research for many years, so I'm sure it doesn't feel like you're starting it, but I think for a lot of us, it, it does. So, um, so thank you. Thank you. So Dr. Levy, where Kim, our listeners find you, if they want to kind of follow, you know, your research and your work. Um,
Dr. Becca Levy: Yeah, so, uh, I just put up a, a website that people can find out more about their research and the work. Um, so it's my name, becca-levy.com. So that has more, more, um, information about some of the research I'm doing and then links to other places that they can find out more about the research and find out more about the books. So, um, so that's a, a good source and people can also contact me through, um, my university. So I'm at Yale school of public health.
Doree: Great. Well, thank you so much. This was such a thank you. Enlightening conversation. Yeah. Um, that, you know, I'm sure I, I will be thinking about for a long time, so thank you.
Dr. Becca Levy: Oh, thank you. It was great to talk with you.
Kate: You know, I was so glad Doree to have a conversation about aging that wasn't like, how do we fight aging with like eating, eating blueberries and salmon? You know, like, I feel like the conversations about aging tend to be super, to be like how to beat it and not how yes. Like, do we, as a, as a community, think about it and support it. I don't know. It was such a interesting perspective.
Doree: I agree. I agree. It, it, like I said, you know, before, uh, when we were introducing her, it really kind of blew my mind in a lot of ways. So I'm really glad we had a chance to talk to
Kate: Her. Yeah, I am too well intention zone story. We're here at the end of the show.
Doree: We are here. We are
Kate: Where we intent. <laugh>
Doree: So Kate, last week you were going to foam rolling stretch.
Kate: Okay. Do you wanna know? What's kind of hilarious in what, so I'm cooped up in this hotel room. I've been, I've been in a hotel room for three days. I've got like three or four more days to go. I bought a yoga mat because I wanna be able, like, my body is achy. My hips are hurting in this bed that I'm sleeping in. So I, I door dashed or Insta carded, whatever you wanna say, a yoga mat. So I'm gonna do some stretching on my yoga mat. So I, I guess I haven't completed this intention, but it's my intention to do this intention.
Doree: Right. I love that. <laugh>.
Kate: I mean, what is it a waste of money to buy a yoga mat? I'm gonna use for three days? I don't know. Like I definitely need, need to move my body and I didn't wanna touch the like grimy floor.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: So
Doree: I think that's a great solution. Thank
Kate: You. Anybody looking in my hotel room here will see me just as I told Doree, learning TikTok dances, doing yoga and laying down
Doree: My intention last week was to listen to my work circadian rhythm. I mean, I think I kind of have been, um, but I'm still sort of like working out. I don't know. I like, I I've been, I realize I was sort of, of craving some strength training <laugh> so I've been trying to incorporate that into my life and I don't know, sort of figuring all that out. So that's sort of, kind of along the same lines as you. I think my intention from last week is kind of like spilling over into my intention from this week, for this week.
Kate: It seems like, like by trying to figure out your works circadian rhythm, it's like feeling out when in the day certain things like feel optimal.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: Okay. Okay.
Doree: Exactly. That's exactly. That's exactly it.
Kate: I love it.
Doree: So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Um, all right. Well gonna say goodbye, Kate. I hope you continue to feel better.
Kate: Thank you so much. And thank you to everybody who sent me nice messages, cuz I, I shared my, my diagnosis on the, uh, TikTok and the Instagram. So thank you everybody. Appreciate it. Appreciate you.
Doree: For 35 is posted and produced by me. Doha and Kate Spencer produced edited by Sam. Sami Reed is our project manager. Our network partner is a cast. We'll talk to you all again soon.