Episode 213: Navigating Beauty and Disability with Chloé Cooper Jones
“I think it’d be a really amazing thing to see a disabled woman dressed beautifully with a full face of makeup and great hair and be given a photo shoot in which the lens of the camera says ‘this is an object of beauty.’”
- Chloe Cooper Jones
Chloé Cooper Jones (Easy Beauty) joins Kate and Doree to discuss how she learned to make space for herself in the world as a disabled woman, her favorite skincare prods, and why she thinks humans crave newness and how traveling can satisfy that appetite.
Photo Credit: Andrew Grossardt
To leave a voicemail or text for a future episode, reach them at 781-591-0390. You can also email the podcast at forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Visit forever35podcast.com for links to everything they mention on the show.
Follow the podcast on Twitter (@Forever35Pod) and Instagram (@Forever35Podcast) and join the Forever35 Facebook Group (Password: Serums).
Sign up for the newsletter! At forever35podcast.com/newsletter.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links.
Transcript
Kate: Hello, welcome to forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer and.
Doree: I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: and we are not experts.
Doree: No, but we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: We do. We do like to talk a lot about serums and you know what? I've been testing out a new cream. I'm gonna talk about in the next couple of weeks that I'm pretty excited about Doree.
Doree: Kate. I can't wait to hear about this.
Kate: Well, look, if you, uh, want to just check out any of the products that we mentioned, they can be found on our website forever 35 podcast.com. You can follow us on Twitter at forever 35 pod. We are more active on Instagram at forever 35 podcast, and you can join the forever 35 Facebook group where the password is serums. And may I pose a question Doree?
Doree: Yes, please.
Kate: To our listeners. Do you want us see us make reels on Instagram question mark.
Doree: Is that something that appeals to you or you just like,
Kate: do you have an interest in reals.
Doree: , please, please do not.
Kate: Kate Doree. We don't wanna see you in a real. Yeah, we're curious because this is a topic of conversation that we've had, like, should we be making reals? Does like reels, do people care about reels? And I will say I attempted one that's in drafts of a, my recent Costco trip, so,
Doree: oh, okay.
Kate: I mean, it's just more me like videotaping my cart. I have, we have, we are not like great video people. So this is a little bit of out of our comfort zone, but we're willing to try anyway, if anyone has any thoughts on reels, you know what hit us up, hit us up on those geme. I said that in a while, hit us up on the gemes. forever35podcast@gmail.com or you can call or text us (781) 591-0390.
Doree: Wow. Kate, you are really mixing it up today.
Kate: I know. Sorry. I skipped over the newsletter part of this reminder list. I'll let I'll hand the mic off to you and let you smoothly take us the rest.
Doree: Okay. Well, you can sign up for our newsletter@foreverthirtyfivepodcast.com slash newsletter. Well, Kate, you know, we usually do a little intro update, et cetera, for these full length episodes. But we had such an engaging conversation with our guest today. Chloe Cooper Jones, that we're just gonna get right into it.
Kate: We are, we both loved Chloe's new book, which is a memoir called easy beauty. And we just could have kept Gabbin' for days, especially cuz we started talking skincare prods right up there toward the end of the episode.
Doree: Oh, we sure did.
Kate: Or our interview rather. And boy, and.
Doree: she had a lot of thoughts.
Kate: She had a lot of thoughts and she's using some good.
Doree: she's using some nice stuff. Yeah.
Kate: Yep. Spoiler alert. We get some skincare pros coming up for you, including we talk about space brushes to wash your face with anyway, why don't we share Chloe's full bio with you before we give you our interview. Uh, and I did wanna say like, I, I don't even think I'd have an update for us. Anyway, other than that I have heartburn. Like that's, that's all that's going on over here. A little heartburn.
Doree: Oh, sorry to hear that.
Kate: You know it's okay. It's nothing Tums can't handle.
Doree: Um, do you wanna read Chloe's bio?
Kate: I would love to Chloe Cooper Jones is a writer based in New York city in 2020, Chloe was a Pulitzer surprise finalist in feature writing for fearing for his life. A profile of Ramsey Orta the man who filmed the killing of Eric Garner. She was the recipient of the to 2020 winning creative nonfiction grant and the 2021 Howard foundation grant from brown university. Both grants are in support of her new book, easy beauty, which is a memoir, which finds the author after unexpectedly becoming a mother embarking on a journey across the globe to reclaim the spaces, both physical and emotional that she's been she's been denied and denied herself. Easy. Beauty is out this coming Tuesday and it is moving and really beautifully written in addition to just being illuminating and interesting and Eye-opening it's it's very poetic found.
Doree: Yeah. And Chloe is going on tour. So if you want to catch her IRL, you can do that. And she talks a little bit about that in our conversation. Um, right. Well, without further ado here is Chloe.
Doree: We are so excited to have Chloe here today with us, Chloe, welcome to forever 35.
Chloe: Oh thank you so much for having me.
Doree: Yeah. Um, well, as we were just kind of discussing in my little preview of what we're gonna talk about, we, we like to open all of our conversations with guests with a discussion their, of a self-care practice that they have. So is there something that you are doing these days that you would consider a self-care practice?
Chloe: Yes. I mean, I think there's a lot of things. I love this question cuz it's actually something I'm really thinking about really seriously. Um, and especially how for a, all of us, this idea of self-care necessarily had to shift a little bit in the pandemic because the things that we might use, um, as outlets for self-care or for outlets for stress or whatever, obviously have to shift. So, um, I've recently taken a lot of inspiration from my friend, Naomi E Huffman. I'll shout out to her who begins every morning really thinking about each one of her senses as self-care. Yeah, I think this is very smart and I'm somebody who often thinks that like, well the better way to put it is I often prefer to believe my body doesn't exist. So I will not prioritize some of my sort of sensory experiences. So she gets up every morning, does a little bit of yoga makes herself tea, lights, Inns.
Chloe: She also does, um, acts of care around her house. So she has a lot of plants and she'll go and like touch her plants and smell her plants and you know, do acts of care, you know, taking care of her plants and plays, you know, a little of music that is very calming to her. She has a whole list of musician that she likes that are sort of ambient and calming. And she just starts every single day with this like fine tuned attention to all of her senses. And to me, this is like somewhat radical, um, and amazing. And so that's what I'm trying to do. I get up and I light incense, I drink coffee, um, and not tea. I try to do like an elaborate stretching routine, which is really, really, really good for my body, but not something I always prioritize. And then I also try to do a small, I play calming music and, and try to do a small active of care. Um, which for me is like feeding all my animals and like spending some time like focusing on my animals and cleaning their bowls and their spaces where they eat and just sort of focusing on these small living things in my, in my home before my family wakes up or my day starts,
Kate: I have two follow up questions. Okay. The, the first is, can you tell us about all your animals? Like who are the animals? What are the animals? I'm just very, I had the same question I need to know about this animal, the animal menagerie that is in your home.
Chloe: Yeah. Oh yeah. Do you tell me both questions? I'll answer the first question.
Kate: Oh, oh the second. Yes. Answer the first one then I'll follow with, by the, yeah. Sorry. I was just gonna, this is what it's gonna be like the whole time. I have so many questions.
Chloe: No, I love it. Uh, oh, I have to also just say, because I think this is so important is Naomi also uses lavender scented dryer sheets. And so like all of the clothes in our house and like all the blankets, like they all smell so good. And I was, I was just like, oh, this is affecting me in a way. I don't think I would've given the proper credence to. So I'm also trying to do things like that. Just like little luxurious things that really are about giving my senses, the proper respect that they deserve. Um, my animal, I have two C cats, um, when we got a long time from a shelter. And then when we found, um, well a fr friends of ours rescue that was dumped during the pandemic. So he's our little alley cat who was very affectionate and lovely. And then we just got a puppy.
Kate: Oh
Chloe: Gosh. And I call her name is Dolly. And I call her like my guilt puppy because I, um, I worked so long and hard and in such a, like a very focused way on this book that I all often like would, you know, spend a lot of time, especially during the pandemic when my family was home, like behind a closed door and my son who's like so supportive and so sweet and just like completely understanding also sometimes would be like, when can we spend the whole day to academy? Like when is this, when is this stress in your life going to go away? I mean, he is very gentle and understanding about it and he just, yeah, he just was such a trooper. And, but he is also really smart and manipulating me he's 10. And so at one point he was like, if only I had like a little puppy friend to keep me company while he you're working and just a thought, you know, I'm not saying I need it. I'm just saying like, maybe a boy needs a dog while his mom, you know, it's a boy
Kate: Needs a dog. Oh my goodness.
Chloe: A boy he's needs a dog. He was like, just consider, just consider that maybe a boy needs a dog. And I was like, yes, absolutely. So I got on this, this puppy so that he would remember this time period as actually a, a very joyful one. And, and not one of just like his mother being stressed out over edits or something
Kate: We can relate to, to being in that, those, that position, same as you as writers. Um, so this kind of leads into my follow up question, which was you have, you have a family and you have a really intense career. Uh, so finding the time to do this was that hard to kind of schedule carve out a little bit of just this alone time where your home is quiet and you can have this space to do these things. And also Naomi, what a legend, I mean truly an icon. I wanna all these things now.
Chloe: She really is. She's the best. Um, and she's very smart. She also dresses like both beautifully, but like extremely comf. Like all her clothes are so comfortable, but she, I don't know how she does it. She's got great tattoos. I don't really know how she does it. She's, I'm really learning a lot from her. She is a legend, um, and a quite brilliant, brilliant person. Yeah. It, it, it was hard, but not because I couldn't find the time. Hmm. Um, it was hard because I didn't prioritize. I felt in some way, like it's selfish or a waste of time, or it doesn't start my day. Right. To like just prioritize my body or like my mental wellbeing. Mm. But then sometimes when I feel like my priorities are getting a little out of whack, I do this exercise where I just for like a day or a week, or I've done it sometimes for months, I actually just keep track of what I do every minute.
Chloe: And this is like a quite annoying thing. And sometimes I have to like approximate it, but I'll actually just keep, I just call it, like keeping track of my minutes. And of course, if you really do that, what you is, you wake up and, or I do this, I won't speak for you. Um, I wake up in the morning and spend 10 minutes to 20 minutes looking at Twitter or looking at Instagram or cycling through emails before I need to do it. Um, or Googling like what Pete Davidson's doing today. Or, you know, like, like,
Kate: Or I doing that. Yep. We are Googling that.
Chloe: And like, I don't really need to do that. It's in a way, maybe that's part of a self-care thing, except for, I just feel the P Davidson is maybe self-care, but the Twitter is agony. That's like the exact opposite of doing something kind for myself. So when I keep track of my minutes, I find that I'm spending the first 20 minutes doing things that are actually putting me in a worse mindset or stressing me out before my days even begun or just depleting me. Sometimes I just feel like mentally depleted before I've even gotten outta bed. And so when I looked at that, it was like, okay, I definitely the time, even though I'm a busy person, like I have the time. And so it's, it's just sort of holding myself accountable, the shifting to practices that I know are gonna set me up very well. Does that make sense?
Kate: Yeah. And it's hard to do. I mean, I, that's really hard That has felt like a, you know, you, when you were just describing your, the first thing you do in the morning, that's similar to me, which is, you know, reach my phone, look at Instagram, do Wordle. Yeah. Look at all the emails, even though you're right. They don't need to be addressed at, you know, 6 45 in the morning, but still absorbing all that information right away. And it does kind of jolt your senses in, in a way that's different from the like lovely sensory experience you've been focusing on. So I don't know. It's ex it's, it's unpleasant and yet hard to break the habit.
Chloe: Yeah.
Doree: Okay. All right. Um, well, Chloe, let's, let's talk about your book, which Kate, my, well, Kate, I'm gonna speak for,
Kate: you can speak since we had a conversation about it.
Doree: Um, we, we both really loved it. It's so beautiful. Um, at which, you know, the book is called easy beauty, but I wanted to just kind of start the discussion of your book with a quote, um, in like the first, from the first, I guess, third of the book, um, where you say people simply felt it was hard to include me and easier to leave me on the margins invisible. I learned to preempt the inevitable and excluded myself. Um, can you talk, I guess, first talk a little bit about what the book is about and how this quote in particular, um, kind of affected you and, and how that might have changed as you were writing the book.
Chloe: Yeah. Well, thank you for re it. Um, and I'm, I'm so glad to get to talk to you about it and I'm, um, thank you for the kind words about it. Uh, the book is it takes place over roughly 18 months of my life, in which, you know, at the core of the book, I'm starting to pay attention to the ways in which, um, I self protect. Yeah. And the ways in which I actively look for a method to withdraw from pain or discomfort. And that's both literal because I have physical disability. Um, and part of my physical disability includes a pain disorder. So I'm constantly managing a pain and stress on my body. So I was taught at a very, very early age by a doctor, a method for mediating pain or for sort of managing pain. I learned later after I wrote the book that this is actually, um, a, a similar technique that like long distance athletes will use is to retreat, to like, to make a space, to make like a, a visual space of a room in your mind, and then go there.
Chloe: And when you're in that room, nothing else exists, but the room, so it is like a form of sort of training your mind to dissociate, um, from reality. And my doctor called it my neutral room. And so that's what I've always called it. So in situations of great physical pain, I could, I could negatively amplify that pain by imagining future pain, existing and things getting worse. And, you know, my body feeling worse and, and that anxiety would actually make the pain I was feeling, um, be amplified. And so the neutral is, is kind of a way of cutting that out. But of course also I started using this as a way to avoid, um, emotional pain. Or as you said, in that quote, the pain of possible exclusion, the pain of people, not wanting to do the work, to find spaces for me, or, or to make experiences accessible to me.
Chloe: Um, and I think that part of that is, you know, part of that comes from the fact that people's understanding about disability is so far behind a lot of other discussions that we're having about diversity or inclusion. And also people have a hard time seeing themselves on the spectrum of disability and seeing disability as like a really, you know, it's very common for people to see disability as this really intense other thing, or a thing to be afraid of, or a thing to attach fear or pity or anxiety on. Um, when in reality like, oh, I'm so sorry. Is that, did you hear that? Oh, no, no.
Kate: Oh no. Oh,
Chloe: I think the experience, um, a lot of people experience disability with a lot of fear and anxiety and sense of an extreme otherness that a disabled body is so different from their own. And it's an object often of pity, um, or of disgust quite frankly. Mm. And the reality is that disability is an important identity. It is an important, um, form of difference, but it also the longs on a spectrum of human variable, like we're all on the spectrum. And in fact, if we all are lucky and live long enough, disability's absolutely coming for you. And so to actually have a good, healthy sort of knowledge base around it and acceptance of it and a way of sort of seeing as an integrated part of being human, um, we're really far behind on that.
Chloe: And I think also part of it is because it's uncomfortable to think about, um, in a lot of ways. So in my experience, it was just easier for people to pretend like, like I didn't exist or that the new aids of my body didn't exist. And you see it in the larger cultural conversations too, where disabilities just sort of left out, you know, it's left out of the beauty conversation, it's left out of the fashion conversation. It's left out of the film and television conversation largely. And we do see these things changing a little bit, but certainly not at the same speed that I think other diversity inclusion conversations are changing things. So the book is largely tracking as that quote says my own instinct to just retreat before the pain occurs. Yeah. Um, and, and, and a, and for me to sort of look at that habit and to see how that habit, while it does protect me, and while it does give me some agency and it does give me some peace, also absence me from my possible, you know, responsibilities and can make me come implicit in bad thoughts about disability.
Kate: You mentioned beauty, and we talk a lot about, you know, the industry of beauty and participation and beauty culture on this podcast and, and are also participants ourselves. Can you speak a little bit about, um, disability and, and the beauty industry and, uh, kind of what, what you see in terms of lack of inclusion and, and where the conversation needs to be?
Chloe: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot about beauty, especially the beauty industry, you know, it, it's obviously very complex. There's a lot of problems, you know, that we can talk about and ways in which it can be, um, a thing that preys on people's vulnerabilities and, and, um, insecurities, but one really P powerful thing about the beauty industry is that it can be, um, a way in which there's a cultural saturation of value around something. So what I mean is like, it can be one factor in which we show through culture, the value of somebody or something. So when we see a beauty campaign, um, that includes, or we see a makeup line that expands their products to include lots of different skin colors, right. Or lots of different skin textures, or pays more attention to what might be ages about out the, the, you know, the products that they're making.
Chloe: When we start to see that we see culture painting some value on the subjects that, that were prioritizing right. In these, in these possibly expanded beauty campaigns. I grew up in a time where the only person I all associated with beauty was a thin young, symmetrical white woman. It's like the Kate Moses of the world and, and all of their sort of copies. And maybe there was a Naomi Campbell, but there was very, it was very unified, especially in like young girls magazines, like 17 or teen magazine. And obviously we see a big shift in that. Um, in fact, if we looked at magazines, we grew up with, we, we would really notice the absences, I think, but I still don't see disability in any of that. You know, I don't think I've ever seen a disabled person on the cover of a magazine or included in a L'Oreal ad campaign or, or anything like that. I just haven't seen it. So we're still really kept out of this possible venue in which we could, our bodies could be washed with that light of inherent value. So I would like that to cha I mean, think it'd be a really amazing thing to see a disabled woman dressed beautifully with a full face of makeup and great hair and be given a photo shoot in which the, the lens of the camera says, this is an object of beauty.
Chloe: Yeah. But I can't really point to too many examples yeah. Of that, unless it's Instagram and it's the disabled figure him or herself, who's making herself, you know, there's a lot of incredible disability influencers that are using Instagram to create that lens on their own, which is great. Um, but it's not the same as Vogue doing it. It's not the same as, you know
Doree: Yeah.
Chloe: These sort other places, or just, you know, a commercial that airs in my hometown of Kansas or something on right on the Superbowl. So, yeah.
Doree: So we're just gonna take a short break and we will be right back. Okay. We're back.
Kate: You talk a lot throughout the book about being excluded from conversations and spaces of sex, romantic partnership, motherhood, and love specifically as a disabled person. And I would love if you could speak to that a little bit and tell our listeners more about how you kind of approach this throughout your book, um, and how you be, I mean, how you became, how you were a participant despite not being included. If that, if I, if I'm asking that correctly, I might need to reframe how I asked that. Does that make, does that, did that, yeah, that sound clear at all to you, sorry. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to ask what I'm asking.
Chloe: No, absolutely. Um, well, you know, we, we learn a about people who aren't us, which is almost everyone, right? Um, through the narratives that, that we encounter about them. So if we are only seeing narratives that are perpetuating stereotypes about a certain group of people, um, or a certain marginal group, our mind is gonna adapt some of those stereotypes. And they're gonna be part of the initial way that we interact with people when we meet them. Now, if we're lucky we get some education and we can sort of start to counterbalance or, or act against those first thoughts or those embedded cultural stereotypes, but they're there. So when people talk about representation, um, it really is so important because it actually, it forms the lens of a person's first thought about a body or, or a life that isn't theirs. Right. So the narrative around disability, if you think of any sort of disability stories you've seen on TV or in books, it you'll see, there's like a couple base sick patterns.
Chloe: Um, a disabled character is typically without agency, absolutely sexless, almost childlike in their goodness or innocence. Um, and they die. They always die. Right. And then they die to let the able bodied people realize that life is so beautiful. I mean, it's the, you know, the Beth of little women yeah. Narrative that you're just gonna see over and over and over and over and over again. Yeah. And it's in so many books that I read, as soon as I find a disabled character, I just immediately think like, okay, they're gonna die pretty quickly. And it's gonna create the dark night of the soul for our protagonist who's then gonna go on and like, learn how to love life. Or there was that film. Um, that was based on a book. Me, me before you, or you before me.
Kate: Oh yeah, yeah. Jojo Mo's book. Yeah. Wait for
Chloe: It's like, she's like falls in love with this like super hot guy. Who's like, just, I think is like a prince or something. I don't know.
Kate: But he's like, yeah, he's super hot rich guy.
Chloe: Like super hot rich guy who loves her so much and is great. And they're like in love, but he is in a wheelchair. So he is like, I'll die to give you happy. It's like, it's so revolting and, and deeply offensive, especially that that's the narrative that people could see as like romantic. Mm. But that's just a, that's a recent example from, from so so many or the disabled body is seen as odd or monstrous or a thing to be on display lay. Um, certainly the history of disability is sort of freak shows or using disability in a medical context to show the difference between pathology and, and the normal body. So an abnormal body, a normal body. So that's the cultural messaging that is absolutely pervasive. And again, if there are at these other counter examples of beautiful disabled women on Vogue or beautiful disabled men on GQ covers, we don't have those counter examples.
Chloe: Then it is just a really, really easy thing for people to look at my body and go, well, she's definitely not gonna date. She can't have any sex drive whatsoever. It'd be kind of weird if she did, she'll never get pregnant, which is what my doctors told my mother from a very young age, they just said, oh, she'll never get pregnant. And my mother not sort of knowing, or not thinking to doubt what a doctor says, didn't really press them as to why. And it turns out I could get pregnant night did. Yeah. And it was a big surprise and that's where part of the book. Um, and so it was just, it wasn't even, I think for a lot of people, a conscious exclusion from those realms, it was just the assumption that that was the thing that was true, that my life would have less agency, less power that my body would not be seen as an object of desire that I would not have desire that I was somehow childlike. I've had friends who, like, if I swear around them, they sort of are like, you know, like they're kinda like weirded out when I just sort of behave, um, like an adult, like a fully formed adult woman with all the things that that implies. So, um, and I think the second part of your question is what I think you said, um, how did I sort of involve myself anyway? Right.
Kate: I guess how, I mean, it, it, you know, you were talking about agency earlier and I think, you know, what I, what my brain keeps wanting to say is like, how did you break through that? But it also just feels unfair that the onus must all be on you, the individual, and to sh to try to shift things and not the culture and community around you. And so I, I, I guess, I guess I'm just like frustrated that that is possibly what the experience is like, but I, you know, I'd be, be curious if, if, if I'm on the nose here, if it was different for you.
Chloe: No, I think that's right. Um, I think it really was on me and I don't think I had, um, a strong, I didn't have a lot of things that could help me out of this, except, um, that I had my son Wolfgang. And when he, which was, as I mentioned, a big surprise, um, cuz I've been and told I couldn't get pregnant. And then I met this man, Andrew and we fell in love very, very quickly. And then suddenly I was pregnant and we were very, very surprised and um, and terrified and terrified. And it was a, a really scary thing because if you're told your, if you can't do something, you don't often build your own narrative about it. So I think a lot of women at some point sit down and they think, do I wanna have a kid? Do I wanna be a mother?
Chloe: Do I not wanna do it? If I was a mother, what kind of mother would I be like, what would that experience feel like? What are the things that would be important to me? But I never did that cuz I didn't think it was possible. And then suddenly was five and a half months pregnant. So, um, before I, before I knew what was happening, but this incredible thing occurred, um, which was Wolfgang came and I sort of spent the first years of his life, I think in a bit of a days that I was in this situation. And then when he turned about three or four and could talk so much, it was so hyper verbal. I started to really see that, um, he was, and this is like the most obvious thing to people who have children, but was, um, news to me, he was just a sponge for every single thing that I did. And I really had this idea that I could keep the worst of myself separate from him. And it turns out you can't
Kate: Oh, so true.
Chloe: It turns out they know and they see through you and then they shine your best and worst back to you. And so suddenly I was seeing Wolfgang behaviors that were okay for me for my own life, but were not okay for him. I, they were, I didn't want that for him. So I think one of the most significant ones was instead of me really thinking about my place in public or my place with strangers, I would retreat. I would hide. I would never talk about my disability. I, if people brought it up, I would sort of upset myself from the conversation, but I also regarded the strangers that stared at me or that treated me cruelly. I would regard them with a lot of, um, anger. I would just be really angry. But then I all also would predict that anger, that, that strangers would treat me badly.
Chloe: So it'd also write this anger onto people before I'd even met them or before they even had a chance to prove who they were. I wouldn't give new people or public situations, the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't go into them with an open mind and I can maybe live the rest of my life like that. But I can't stain my son with that. I don't want that for him. I want him to be someone who feels open-minded and excited about new things and meets people and doesn't put preconceived notions on them and has open like an open heart. And I, the, the, just the totally unfair thing about a parent being a parent is you can't just say that to your kid and then they'll do it right. It's like, you really have to
Kate: Do it. Yeah. It's so hard.
Chloe: It's so hard. It's so unfair. It's like just actually really have to deal with all of your,
Doree: Yeah.
Chloe: All your bad stuff. Um, so that, that's sort of a long answer, but it's the truest answer. That's a thing that forced this shift. I couldn't wait for the culture to sort of magically make it easier for me. I had to figure out how to really find a sense of peace and self acceptance and openness and more empathy and more compass compassion for other people so that I could shine that back to my son and give that example for him.
Doree: You know, we're, we're talking about your role as a parent to your, but your parents play a pretty big role in your book as well. And I wanted to talk about them for a little while. Um, they had seems like a complicated relationship and I'm wondering like, and you talk about this in your book, but I'm wondering if you could talk about this for the benefit of our listeners as well, kind of what you took from both of them and how they navigated having a child, uh, with a disability.
Chloe: Yeah. They're very different people. Um, my father was a very brilliant, um, incredibly creative, quick witted, charming party, monster life of the, you know, like bright corner in any room. Very, you know, people were really, really drawn to him. He read obsessively, he was so smart. He could remember, you know, whole bits of poetry or theory and recite them verbatim. He could play lots of musical instruments. He was just a deeply, deeply charming person. Um, he lived most of his life in a very romanticized head space. Um, he wanted every moment to be new. He wanted every experience to be an experience of grand adventure. Um, he wanted to see every corner of the world. He was very hungry for life, but he was also deeply restless and avoidant of, of the hard facts of reality.
Chloe: My mother, uh, was the exact opposite, grew up one of six children, um, you know, child of a Filipino father who had come to the United States and built an incredible life, um, for his children worked very hard and she's also just the most deeply practical, sensible logical person I've ever met. She's obnoxiously correct about everything. She, she just like, she's the most clear eyed person in the world and it's because she isn't swayed by a romantic ideal of, of things in one there's one example in the book in which that's not quite true, but for the vast majority, it's like the romanticized ideal is not relevant to her. She just wants to know what's the work that needs to be done. What, what are the chores that need to be accomplished? What's the honest truth of a situation. And she's a person who can look at the hard facts of reality and integrate them seamlessly into her existence, but also use those hard facts to motivate her behavior and her actions. Mm.
Chloe: And I think the book is in every way, a, a battle between those who states of being, I think chapter by chapter, it's the, it's that battle that I'm, I'm dealing with. My father left our family. He, you know, cheated a lot on my mom, which is all part of like the romantic traveling. Man's, you know, he ha you gotta do it if you're gonna be yeah. If you're gonna be, you know, um, that vision. And when he, when I was born, I think he had an idea that I was gonna be, um, a witness to his grand adventures. But instead I came out with a lot of hard facts and realities. I needed a kind of care. He couldn't give me and for my mother, nothing about my disability changed anything. She felt about motherhood. It didn't affect a single thing because a, all she wanted to do was know me and she wanted to know how to take care of me.
Chloe: So whatever those things were like, the logistics didn't matter. She just wanted to deal with, with the realities of, of loving her child. And that's the only thing that motivated her feelings or her, um, or her behaviors. So for me, I am a, I am a true product to both of these people. And I have all of my father, he says, at one point you have my same curse, um, which is that we can't integrate the hard facts of reality and we don't know how to live in the present. And that's true. He's absolutely right. But I also have my mother's influence. My husband who's very much like my mother and my son and they have shaped me equally. So a lot of the book is this sort of trying to find that threshold in which I might be able to hold onto this romantic part of me that is truly in awe of all the newness of the world and the adventures that I can go on that wants to have every experience, but also can balance that with the incredible strength. Um, and self-awareness that my mother, my mother lived her whole life by.
Kate: I love the way that you use kind of travel and your journeys through the world, and also kind of through people, um, kind of weave your book together. It was just so beautifully done, uh, is, is travel and exploring the world in this way. Do you feel like it's a self-care practice for you? Is it something that you do to really feed your soul in that way?
Chloe: Yeah, absolutely. I mean the brain craves newness, um, I mean, it is part of how we keep our brain chemistry balanced quite literally is the seeking of newness and then the desire of our brain, somewhat paradoxically to take that newness and then come compartmentalize and understand it and categorize it. It's like the brain always wants to find those things. I think that's part of why COVID, O's been so hard on people is we're so much time looking at the same walls. Yeah.
Kate: Um, yeah,
Chloe: The same, you know, block around our house.
Kate: Yeah. Walking that same block,
Chloe: Walking that same. I had this moment in, in my son and I were going on walks every day in the pandemic, but we were doing the same route and I had this one moment where I sort of petally stopped in the middle of our walk and just went, I'm so sick of walking here. I'm so sick of this
Kate: Walk.
Chloe: I was like, OK, nothing's gonna solve this. You know, like I just couldn't keep going. Cuz I was just, you know, walking the same block and stopping at the same, you know, ice cream shop and eating the same delicious ice cream. But I was just like, I'm sick of this ice cream and I'm sick of this walk, sick of the walls of my apartment. There's no newness. And I think it really does create, um, you know, it's just a form of, um, the, the seeking of newness is a form of like interacting with your, that gives you a chance to see yourself, see the corners of your mind, understand the way your mind tackles newness, or solves the sort of problem of the unknown. And I think, I don't know how you guys feel, but I feel like when I travel and I come up against a lot of struggles or, or difficulties, but then I solve the, I feel amazing. I feel like so unstoppable. I'll be like, I'm out in the world, you know, like navigating the universe and I like solve this train issue.
Kate: Yes.
Chloe: And it's like so much power in agency. Like I just can't get that from like doing the laundry at my house. Even though I know I have to do the laundry at my house, like,
Kate: Oh, there's no adventure in the laundry,
Chloe: There's it really has to get done. It's one of the hard facts of reality, but it's not romantic, you know, it's not romantic to get like your prescriptions at the pharmacy and like milk at the bodega. But, um, but those things are also important as well. Can I ask you guys a question though?
Kate: Of course, of course.
Chloe: Um, so, so I was talking a few minutes ago about like this neutral room, right. Um, that I call the space in my mind. And again like that space is one of great agency for me. Right. It's a space of peace. It's a space in which I can go and I can think, and I can have, um, conversations with myself. So there's all these things that are really good about that. Like protective withdrawal. And then the thing that I think the book is, is sort of trying to figure out is like, but where is that threshold? Where that like piece and ReSTOR of, um, power or agency in the separated neutral room, where's that threshold where it becomes, um, a, about more avoidance, right? Mm. And I have this theory that everybody has their own neutral room, their own version of this. So it may not be like a literal walled off room in your brain. But I do think everyone has like a protective space where it's very good for you, but there's a threshold in which it becomes avoidance. So do you relate to that? And do you have your own neutral rooms?
Kate: Yes. I, I think one thing that was really interesting to me about your book is I've never heard it positioned that way. Yeah. Like cuz you give it this kind of physical space and also what I like about the way that you kind of tackle it is seeing both the, the pros and cons of it. Right. And like that fine balance that you're talking about. Because I think a lot of times I'm like I just disassociate and that's not good, but actually when you're the way you kind of present, it is at many times a form of self care and survival and empowerment and agency. And so I'm now I definit do that. I think for me it's a, it's a bit of like a protective space, but I'm trying to think about how I, how I practice it, that I don't know if I can articulate, but I definitely do have kind of a, I don't know, a a, like a, a brain space I go to when I'm just like, I need, I need there to be a, a boundary here for my own to pres my own self preservation.
Doree: Yeah. I don't think I've ever thought about it as a room, but I, I like the idea of thinking about it as a room. Um, so that has definitely made me kind of think about my own own sort of coping mechanisms. Um, and yeah. So, so to answer your question, like not exactly, but sort of
Chloe: Yeah, but I, I'm so interested in people's coping mechanisms, which I think can be their neutral rooms. Like I think one of the great joys in life is watching a television show. I don't care about, you know, it's like, that is like such a fantastic coping mechanism. Um, and if I do it all day long, which sometimes I do, if I'm feeling really terrible about something, I'll just stay in bed all day and like eat pizza in bed and like watch a terrible show that I don't care about. Then that becomes a signal to me that I'm, I'm avoiding something. But then there's also that just like unbelievable bliss and restorative energy of like one to two hours of a, at the end of a hard day where I'm like, this is such a hugely powerful tool for good yeah. In my life. And so I think it's like, doesn't even have to be like base in your head, but maybe like a practice or a habit or what we often call guilty pleasure, which I don't really like that term, but it's sometimes that's what we call it. Um, so yeah. Do you have any examples of that? That you're
Kate: Yes. I mean, so for me like, well, I'm a, I write romance and I read romance. And so I've talked a lot about this on our podcast, but like specifically reading romance books to me provides that space of like mental relaxation and escape and comfort. But specifically as Dory has heard a million times over, I have been reading a romance series called ice planet barbarians, which is a, uh, human romance. I mean human alien romance series. And I've read like 30 of these books and they are, they've got, got me through the OCN search basically. Like that's all I, all I could do was live in the spa, like live my life. And then at night retreat to this ice planet with the aliens and the humans. And that was it. That was all I could do. So yes, that is mine. That's my current one.
Doree: Well,
Chloe: I love that. I'll check it out. Sorry. I was just gonna
Kate: Say Chloe,
Doree: My mysteries, I, I feel about mysteries the way that Kate feels about romance. So, um, that's definitely like a space for me to just kind of let my brain relax I guess. Mm.
Chloe: Yeah.
Kate: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right. We are back,
Doree: Um, Chloe, before we wrap up, because I just realized we've been chatting for quite some time, um, because you're so easy to talk to. Um, could do you, could you let us know, do you have a skincare routine and what is it?
Chloe: I do. Um, I used to, I used to do like a full out very multi-step Korean skincare routine with like 18 steps. And then I was always, I was just, wasn't good. Consistent. I feel like that whole thing. It's like, you have to be very consistent and I'm a person who, you know, if I'm tired, I just go to bed with makeup on and that's bad, but I just do it. Like I just get very lazy. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate: You know What, nothing bad's happened? Like has anything bad happened to you as a result of this?
Doree: No,
Chloe: It's fine. No it's and then this like amazing thing happens where like, somehow my makeup actually looks better in the morning going, gonna happen where I'm like, oh, it's like, something's happened where it's all sort of like Jed, you know, it's like settled,
Kate: Settled
Doree: Into your skin.
Chloe: And I wake up sometimes and I'm like, I look amazing. Um, my hair always looks better in the more, but, um, so now I keep it much more, much more simple, um, cuz I have to be consistent. And the, so this is sort of, okay, these are two boring things. Okay. One is, I just use Tre Tino one, which I think is great.
Doree: Yes. Great. Yeah.
Kate: Right. Not boring at all. That's like holy grail.
Chloe: Okay. I just love it. I'm like, why am I doing all these creams when like maybe T Trentino one just is the thing I need. Um, and then I really want your in on this because I've started to use a product that I really love and it's way too expensive, but I have a really like intense relationship with it. But I also suspect that I am being totally brainwashed and that it has no real effect and that marketing and like celebrity culture has completely brainwashed me. And so I really wanna know what you think, but I'm using the Augustin Bader. Oh my God cream.
Doree: Uh, OK.
Chloe: Do you guys talk about this?
Kate: Oh, I've gone on a journey with that.
Doree: Yeah.
Chloe: Okay. I have to go back and find these episodes. Please tell me, am I brain brainwashed or is it the most
Kate: You just described? I feel like, and Dory, I think you're less susceptible. Like I am get swept up in marketing and a, a hefty price tag. Like I, I, I can empathize deeply. I tried that stuff because I was on the hunt for a rich skin care cream and it made me break out, but people love it. And I think if it works for
Doree: You,
Kate: It's probably great. I don't, I don't think it's just a, you know, flashy lights and, and, and pretty ads. Like I think it's, I think people really love that stuff, like stand by it and fork over the cash for it because it's so oh, great.
Chloe: Yeah. I bought it and I, it doesn't make me out. It makes my skin, I think look kind of dewy and glowy naturally. I really like it. I do think maybe just like a $5, you know, like a, like I think there's a placebo effect happening in my brain, which maybe is fine or maybe it's great. I don't know. Dory, do you have feelings about this?
Doree: Um, well, as Kate said, I am more of like a skeptic and full disclosure. I did not try it. Um, they did send us some and it, mine is still like in the box because like, there's something, I don't know. I have like a mental hurdle about trying really expensive stuff, which is weird since I'm on a skincare pod, like a podcast that talks about skincare a lot. I think I also like with products that are like, this is the only thing you need to use. I'm always like, but what if I wanna like use my other things?
Chloe: Yeah.
Doree: And I feel like that's what this, um, isn't that like? Don't they say that, that like, this is the, the only thing you need and yes,
Kate: I think it has like a retinol aspect to it as well. So I think that might be why, I mean, I know, yeah. I don't know grace Atwood, who is an influencer who I, I trust to influence me. She's like the real deal. She loves that stuff. And so I look again, I, I also believe that placebo effects are like, you know, I know I'm, I believe that placebo affects like, why not? You know what if it's just all in our brain, but it makes us feel good.
Chloe: Well, Dory, I can give you my address. If you don't wanna open that box, you can send it to me because I mean, I like it and it's very expensive. Yeah.
Doree: It's very Expensive.
Chloe: But no, you should try. You should try. But I do. I okay. So I, so I think that, that it's like, that's a product I would never recommend to anybody because I don't know if I'm just like in a weird love, bizarre relationship with it. But one thing this isn't, I don't know if you'll count this as skincare, but it's a product that I've started to use that I'm very, um, obsessed with and proselytizing about is so as I've gotten older, I'm now 38. Um, my eyebrows have thinned. That's like a, a natural, you know, aging thing. And I started using revital ashes, um, eyebrow conditioner and your listeners. Can't see, but you guys can and see, look at my eyebrows. They're like twice as that, you didn't see me before. You have nothing to compare this to, but we're gonna take, they trust me.
Doree: Revitalash works.
Kate: Yeah. It works. They're revital. Ash
Chloe: Works. What is in that?
Kate: I don't know. I mean, I bet we could read the ingredient list, but I almost don't wanna know. I use their, I used their mascara and they have like a similar conditioning ma Scarra that's really nice.
Chloe: I'm I'm gonna buy everything. They've got, they've got me hooked, like everything. I'm just, I'm gonna buy everything they've got, I couldn't believe that it worked, that it grew much of my eyebrows back.
Kate: Well, and then, you know, what's frustrating is that like the, I keep reading online that nineties thin eyebrows are gonna come back and dial and I'm not gonna participate.
Chloe: No, I'm not right.
Kate: We've all learned and lived that life. Yes. Yes. Keep 'em bushy and big everybody.
Chloe: I'm not gonna participate. Can I ask you one other skincare question? Cuz I'm really on the I'm on the fence about this. I, I use the like PMM D brush. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like the it's a Silicon, um, oh, like face vibrating face brush and it's a, it's great. So, Ooh. I, I have like, um, you know, I have like large pores and problems with blackhead and stuff like that. So I always thought I should use like the Clarisonic brushes, but then I found out that those actually like really damage your skin apparently. Yeah. And maybe like that company doesn't exist anymore. So then this one is a Silicon vibrating one that like gets all the stuff outta your face, but also is like lightly exfoliating. And I love it, but I don't know if like in a couple months I'm gonna have all these weird face cuz Clarisonic is like quite damaging. Right? Like it broke people's skin, so. Okay. But you guys don't use it. You don't have an opinion on
Doree: That one been discontinued
Kate: The PMD Or the Clarisonic
Doree: Clarisonic oh,
Kate: Oh, have they really
Doree: Conics have been discontinued? Yes. Yeah.
Kate: Oh my gosh. I didn't know that I had
Doree: One, but I mean, I went through a phase like in the Ts, I feel like everyone had a Clarisonic. I was using that thing every day.
Chloe: Yeah.
Kate: I've not tried this face brush this PMD that you have. I've tried other silicone face brushes. I mean, again, I'm kind of, of the mindset that if it works for you, it works. But I don't know in terms of like damage, that is that's a little bit like that. Scary. Who knows area of things when it comes to all this stuff.
Chloe: Yeah. I know. That's what freaks me out. I thought you guys were gonna just give me the verdict, but I know
Kate: We, we like to live in the gray area of yeah we do.
Doree: We like to really equivocate.
Kate: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. We don't like to give You an answer.
Chloe: That's Good.
Kate: But, but it Looks, I mean, it's intrigue. The I'm curious about it now. I do feel like the, the challenge is like for me anyway, and I'm don't wanna speak for either of you, but it's like, once I get started, I can never stop. Like, and Dory knows this about me. Like I just accumulate all the stuff and to the point where I'm like, what is, what am I even doing anymore? Like I'm, I'm wearing this mask at night and then I'm putting this brush on my face. So
Doree: Right. And like to what end?
Kate: Yes. But at the same time, it's also like, well, this makes me feel good. And it makes my can look good. And like, I don't know, but world can feel like a hell fire. So this brush will save me.
Kate: I do also just wanna note that so many of these face skincare brushes look like vibrators, like this guy,
Chloe: Husband, that when I bought this PMD, it's cute. It like cute little pink vibrator.
Kate: Yeah. It's cute.
Chloe: And when it came, my husband was like that thing's putting me out of a job and I was like, no, it's for my face. It's for my face. Like, you know, like that's a vibrators are not new or anything in the house, but it's like, he was like, he really gave that particular one. Like.
Kate: gave it a look.
Chloe: He was like, I don't like that. I don't like that one. I like, no, no, it's really shy. But they do. They do look like there's
Kate: Like a real cross. So I just noticed that like about a bunch of skincare, skincare tools I have where I'm like, Hmm. All right.
Chloe: Yeah.
Kate: Y you all look very similar.
Doree: I feel like we could, we could talk about this for,
Kate: I know, hours, maybe Chloe, when this book promos done, maybe you can come back and talk to us more about it. Cause it'd be really interesting to, to continue the conversation when you have time. Because obviously,
Chloe: Well, it would be my pleasure.
Chloe: Would be my pleasure.
Doree: Do you have your book to come to, um, Los Angeles?
Chloe: I do. Um, oh, so I have a book launch at skylight. Oh great. On April 9th.
Kate: Of course. I'm in New York. Sorry, not to make it all about me. Doree. You're here.
Doree: I'm here.
Chloe: Yeah. You should come. Im in conversation with Ann Friedman. I don't know if you know.
Kate: Yeah.
Chloe: And so, yeah, so I'll be there in April 9th at skylight, which I think is a Saturday and then I'll come back. I'm doing a tour with popup magazine, so cool. I don't know if you know them, but yeah. Well, so, and then I also love LA, so I spend as much time in LA as possible. I live in Brooklyn and you just have to leave Brooklyn as you just have to occasionally leave Brooklyn to fully appreciate it. So yes,
Kate: We both used to live in Brooklyn, so
Chloe: We, so, you know, yeah. Yeah. So I love LA and I come, I come as often as, you know, as I can.
Kate: Is there any other, any other events that you wanna, uh, share with list who may be able to come out, uh, either virtually or in person to support, um, your book launch?
Chloe: Yeah. If any listeners are in New York city, we launch the book on April 5th, which is pub day, uh, at books, our magic in Brooklyn. And it's gonna be, I think, a really great event. I'm in conversation with brilliant, brilliant writer and Wiener and Wiener wrote, um, on Kenny valley, which was the New York times called it one of the 10 best books of the year. It's also a memoir and she's a staff writer at the new Yorker, truly an amazing and brilliant person. So that's gonna be really fun. And then also I do have a full tour schedule, which will be online on my website, which is Chloe Cooper, jones.com. So if anyone's listening and wants to come say hi to me, or join a virtual event, um, I'd be really thrilled to have this conversation or conversations like this with, with anyone. So it's so fun to talk to talk about, although this is very special talking to you. So thank you for making this, um, so fun and easy on me.
Kate: Oh, well your book is just, is really beautiful. Um, and Doree and I were talking about just as writers too, just admiring the way you structured it and how you wrote it. It's just, it's fantastic. So everybody should, should read it when it comes out on April 5th.
Chloe: Thank you. Thank you. You
Kate: Thank you, Chloe.
Doree: Thank you, Chloe.
Chloe: Thank you.
Kate: You know, I have to say like one other thing that really things that really heartens me about our podcast and the amazing human beings that we get to talk to is that we all are intertwined skincare. Like everyone has a skincare routine. Even if you do nothing, that's technically your routine, you know, like everybody has a thing that when you say to them, do you have a skincare routine? They have an answer.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: And sometimes the answer is like, no, but I like should, you know, it's just, it's just a fun kind of uniting topic. I'm glad you posed it to Chloe too. I just, cuz sometimes we all like we get so caught up in our,
Doree: I know, I know. Yes, yes, yes.
Kate: That often we forget
Doree: We do, but I'm glad that we got to talk to her about it. Um, Kate, I have a confession to make, I was gonna do yoga. I was gonna do yoga this week inspired by our last guest, Jess Stanley. And I didn't do it. And I'm just like, where did the week go? Like I literally am like what happened?
Kate: I feel like though Jess would say like not feeling attached to having to practice yoga is a, is the yoga practice within itself. So technically you did practice yoga. I mean, I don't wanna put to you're right words in her mouth, but I, I do feel like that's kind of, she has such a compassionate approach to yoga. I think that you can hold space for not actually doing a physical yoga practice story.
Doree: It's okay. Thank you, Kate. Okay. Um, well this week I have a pretty low stakes intention. Matt is going away for a couple of nights and my intention is to just like not get overwhelmed.
Kate: And it'll be you and Henry
Kate: Living your best Mother, son life.
Doree: Yep.
Kate: Do you, do you have matching outfits with Henry?
Doree: I do not.
Kate: Okay. I always think of mother boy on arrested development. Are, are you familiar with mother boy?
Doree: Um, no.
Kate: Okay. Mother boys. It's like a, some mother's son dance where they wear matching outfits. I mean, look, you gotta watch old rest of developments, but I, you know, so I was wondering if you and Henry had little mother, son matching outfits. Maybe that'll be your birthday presence this year.
Doree: Wow. Okay.
Kate: Don't get too Excited.
Doree: What are, what are your intention? What's your intention?
Kate: Okay. Well, oh my God. I didn't set one. So last week I set the intention of resting and I have to say, I, I did that kind of this week where I just kind of like mentally didn't do much. I didn't put a lot of pressure on my myself to like do a ton of work. I did a lot of sitting around, I binged yellow jackets. I cooked a lot, which I don't normally do, which felt really nice. Um, I played with my dogs. Like I just kinda just kinda lobbed as we would say in my family. I lobbed around love.
Doree: That Sounds great.
Kate: So, you know, I, I'm now realizing that I rested so hard. I didn't set an intention for this coming week, but what I'm going to say is that I would like to this week plan out four easy meals for our family to make for dinner. And I want to do it with the input of my children because
Doree: Ooh, okay.
Kate: Guess who has a lot of opinions about the things that they eat when their father and I cook for them. So this week I want like one thing I've said to them when they're like, you don't like this, I'm like great. You can either you, if you wanna complain, like then you get to cook dinner tomorrow. Otherwise like, I don't wanna hear it. Like you get here in the kitchen at five 30 and stop doing your homework and come, you figure out what to make mother effort.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Uh, yeah. I know that's not a great thing to say to a nine and 11 year old, but that's kinda where I'm at. So what I'm thinking is like, how can I include them? Not just in like getting their opinions better, but also being like great. You can help me on Monday night, chop the carrots. So more inclusive meal
Doree: Planning. Trusted. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. And also like, Hey, why don't we head up your bank? Count for the grocery shopping, my little friends.
Doree: Wow,
Kate: Baby. Wow baby. You know what? This is one of those things I wish I, it wore my mom alive. I would be like, Hey, I'm real sorry about the way I, I was acted when you fed me. Cuz my mom did was the predominant maker of dinners in my family. And you know, that's a hard role to have as in a family to be the dinner maker. Anyway, that's my plan. Do I mean wish me luck. We'll see how it goes. I'm not too optimistic.
Doree: I'm wishing you luck.
Kate: Thank you friend. You are wonderful. I appreciate you.
Doree: All right, everyone that about does it
Kate: Forever. 35 is hosted a produced by my friend Dore and by your friend, Kate Spencer and it's produced and edited by our mutual friend SAMO. Our other friend, Sam Reid is our project manager and our network parked art slash I'm gonna say it. Our friend is a cast.
Doree: All right, bye everyone.