Episode 361: Bestie At First Sight with Lindy West & Meagan Hatcher-Mays
Bestselling author Lindy West and her best friend, democracy policy expert Meagan Hatcher-Mays, join Doree and Elise to tell us about Text Me Back, their show about making your favorite people laugh. Along the way they also discuss the life changing magic of hydrating with electrolytes, their summer plans involving hot Doritos at the beach and doing as little as possible, and a super cute moment where they both hype each other up as only best friends can.
Mentioned in this Episode
Shit, Actually: The Definitive, 100% Objective Guide to Modern Cinema by Lindy West
How To Connect With Text Me Back
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode is Ai generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree Shafrir (00:21):
Indeed, we are. How's it going, Elise?
Elise Hu (00:24):
It's going well. This is a Monday episode where we're going to have a very cool conversation coming up with some guests, but I feel like we haven't caught up that much over the course of the last week or last week or so because I'm coming back from some time away. So I need to update you and update the listeners on the latest misadventures of Oscar, the golden retriever. My god,
Doree Shafrir (00:50):
Elise, I'm not laughing at you. I'm more laughing. Ruefully,
Elise Hu (00:57):
Yes,
Doree Shafrir (00:58):
It's a rueful laugh
Elise Hu (01:00):
For any listeners who are new to the show and have missed the various chapters in Oscars, he's not even a year old yet. He'll be a year in about three weeks from now and he has already had open abdominal surgery, like a major abdominal surgery to remove a squish melow that he swallowed on New Year's Eve 2024, and then had a subsequent hospitalization in April after swallowing some other bouncy balls, some rubber thing that his intestines couldn't pass. Surprise, surprise, his intestines couldn't pass a giant rubber bouncy ball. And that had to be like, oh my God, they had to give him lots of fluids so that it eventually passed. We think like, don't dunno. And then this week after he jumped up on the table while we were eating dinner and stole a corn cob off of Ava's plate. What
(01:56)
A corn cob. He not learned. Yes, he has not learned place. So we have a trainer who comes over and has us work on things, and one of the key things for puppies to learn is place. So he has a place to go to and we can tell him to go there. Let's just say he left his said place and stole a corn cob off the table. Blatantly he was out in the yard, not a second later just chomping down on this corn cob and getting it into his belly as fast as possible. So that had already happened. But as we were cleaning up the table from dinner, he breaks into the younger two girls, Luna and Issa share a bedroom that's right off the kitchen. And so that's the bedroom that he can get access to because he is sort of gated off from the other part of the house. And so he promptly takes the opportunity while we're all busy clearing the table to ram his full body into the girl's room because the door wasn't shut completely and he could just Kool-Aid man his way in because he's 80 pounds. He Kool-Aid man way into the girl's room and takes the first thing that he sees into his mouth. And it's of course some golf ball sized squish Melow object, which I knew was going to take us down a bad road, a road in which I couldn't stomach again, if you will.
(03:21)
So once we saw it and the girls freaked out and we sat him down, they held him by his collar and I reached my hand in there and I can feel the object. No, and I'm trying to grab it and we're in this tug of war while this object is in the back of his mouth, in his back teeth. Right. Oh my God. And then I'm like, this isn't working. He's holding on so tight. So then I remember that he sometimes drops it and learns how to drop or has learned how to drop it with the specter of a treat. So I turn around and go to the fridge to grab some chicken, to lure him to drop it, and in that second he's like, bye. And he swallows the object down.
Doree Shafrir (04:02):
Oh my God.
Elise Hu (04:04):
I waited 30 minutes and watched half of an episode of the Emmy Award, nominated series, dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams with Rob before telling him of this episode. He didn't know he was in a different part of the house when this all went down. And then I was like, I just want to watch this show. It's really funny. Jenny Slate is in it, it's awesome. Then I just didn't say anything for half of the episode and then half into the episode I'm like, Oscar swallowed a squish and he promptly jumps out of bed. He's like, no, not again. Very emotional reaction. He's like, we're going to have to go to the emergency room because if we get it early enough then it won't get stuck lower down. And he was right. The vet said, good thing you got here within the hour of it happening because we can make him vomit.
Doree Shafrir (04:59):
Oh, okay.
Elise Hu (05:00):
And so they give him some drug that makes him empty all the contents of his stomach before it makes it down to an intestine and you will not believe how much came out. So first there was the organic material, which was parts of a corn cob, which I have thrown away, so I cannot show you that.
Doree Shafrir (05:17):
Okay.
Elise Hu (05:19):
Then there are pieces of the slow feeding bowl. You know how you can get those slow feeders?
Doree Shafrir (05:25):
Oh my God. So there were pieces of the
Elise Hu (05:27):
Bowl. Okay, so that's this one? No. Alright, and then here is the object in question. I think it's like my melody from Hello Kitty.
Doree Shafrir (05:39):
Oh my God.
Elise Hu (05:40):
Okay, so that's bigger than a golf ball. Actually
Doree Shafrir (05:43):
It is quite
Elise Hu (05:45):
Large. We were like, great. Alright. He got that out, he vomited that out. Great. We got it. But then there was more, then we found this is going to be shocking, and we don't know how long this was in his stomach. This is an emotional support french fry. It's larger than a banana.
Doree Shafrir (06:04):
It is huge. It looks like a worm.
Elise Hu (06:08):
And who knows how long this was in his stomach. They were like,
Doree Shafrir (06:13):
So the doctor said it was good that you got here within the hour so we can make him throw up. But then you're saying that you don't know how long the french fry was in there
Elise Hu (06:23):
Because that could have been just stuck in there for a week or more and it couldn't because of the shape of it because it's shaped like a stuffed tube sock. Oh
Doree Shafrir (06:34):
My God.
Elise Hu (06:35):
It couldn't make it down the intestine or up
Doree Shafrir (06:38):
And you had no idea that it was in there.
Elise Hu (06:42):
Oh my God. For listeners out there, I'm just shaking my head very slowly. I just, wow. Anyway, so that's the latest in the Oscar Chronicles. I mean this dog is, I texted Dory last night when all of this was going down and she was like, do you think he's just dumb? And I do. I did say that. I was like, is he maybe not that bright? He's such abo, he's so handsome. Walking around with Oscar is how I know pretty privilege exists. Oh my God. People are all trying to pet him. He brings a smile to everyone's face, but then he gets compliments nonstop. People from across the street will be like, that is a good looking dog. But then he has some real deficits, otherwise anyway. What's going on with you? Nothing. That
Doree Shafrir (07:41):
Dramatic
Elise Hu (07:44):
Boy. Oh boy.
Doree Shafrir (07:46):
It's just funny because Bo is in a very different phase of life right now. Bo was enjoying his retirement. His dog walker came today to take him out and when they got back, Bo was just like, ah. And trotted back to my office so he could get on the couch. And then I said to her, I was like, in about 10 minutes he's going to ask me to go outside so he can sunbathe. And indeed, 10 minutes later he was like, okay, I'm ready to go. And he just went outside, laid down. He was out there for a little while. Then he came back in. Then he was in the exact same pose inside just watching Wheel of Fortune. Yeah, exactly. He's like in his recliner.
Elise Hu (08:27):
Yeah, I'm just kidding.
Doree Shafrir (08:30):
Yeah, sweet dog. He still has energy and he still loves going on walks and very sniffy. But he is definitely like, I like my creature comforts
Elise Hu (08:42):
So good. That's my dream situation. I mean, retirement for me is a dream, but retirement age for my dog is also a dream. I hope. May he live that long? Oh God. May Oscar even make it that long. Oh God. You know what I'm saying?
Doree Shafrir (08:56):
I do. I do.
Elise Hu (08:58):
He's already used up three of his lives.
Doree Shafrir (09:00):
I know. I was going to say, he doesn't seem to have great survival instincts. Yeah. Oh, Oscar. Well, should we introduce our guests?
Elise Hu (09:13):
I am delighted to and you all will like them so much. They are best friends who podcast together. They're Lindy West and Meagan Hatcher-Mays. Lindy West is the co-host with Meagan of a comedy podcast called Text Me Back. And Lindy is the author of the email newsletter. But News Widely agreed to be the best and most important email newsletter of all time. This is according to her. It's a really good bio. Yeah. She has published three books, shit, actually, the definitive 100% Objective Guide to Modern Cinema, as well as the New York Times bestselling memoir, shrill notes from a Loud Woman and the essay Collection, the Witches are coming. Her next book, adult Braces will be available for pre-order soon. Lindy is a former contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and her work has appeared in this American Life, the Guardian tons of other places, and she's the co-founder of the Reproductive Rights de-Stigmatization campaign. Hashtag Shout Your Abortion. Meagan Hatcher-Mays is a lawyer and expert on the courts and democracy. Somebody who we really need right now who has appeared on M-S-N-B-C and Peacock. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, tons of other places. She lives in Washington, DC mainly. They're like best friends. And this show is called Text Me Back. And it's like they're text to each other out loud in a podcast and we kind of got to experience this ourselves when we sat down with them.
Doree Shafrir (10:41):
Yes, they're very fun. And before we get to them, just a reminder that you can visit our website, February 35 podcast.com for links to everything we mention on the show. We are on Instagram at February 35 podcast. Our Patreon is at patreon.com/Forever35. Our favorite products are at Shop my us slash Forever35. You can sign up for our newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter, and you can call or text us at 7 8 1 5 9 1 0 3 9 0 and email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. And we will take a short break and we will be right back with Lindy and Meagan. Welcome to Forever35, Lindy and Meagan, we are so excited to have you on the show. Thanks for having us. So excited. We don't do a lot in stereo. Yeah, we don't do a lot of two guest episodes, so this is exciting for us.
Lindy West (11:47):
Unfortunately, even on our own two person podcast, we are not good at Mary not talking over each other. That's okay. Today we're going to figure it out.
Doree Shafrir (11:58):
Today is the day. Well, we start all of our conversations with our guests by asking them if they are doing anything right now that they would consider self-care. And that is a very broad definition of self-care.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (12:12):
Gosh, I feel very cared for when I just don't have to do anything that's caring for myself is just like, I'm not doing the dishes. I'm not responsible for the dogs today or whatever. So I've been just doing a lot. I've just been allowing myself to be a little bit of a lazy girl and just watch a lot of TV because it's just a little bit easier to exit reality when you're like, oh, what are these British detectives getting up to? Let's find out. And it's very cozy for the mind.
Elise Hu (12:44):
Dory loves a cozy mystery, but Lindy will let you go. What are you doing to take care of yourself these days?
Lindy West (12:50):
I feel like I have been, I'm traditionally so terrible at taking care of myself that I also am always compensating by doing extravagant gestures of self-care. So lately I've been doing all kinds of things. Mainly I've been buying things which I love, but I got a new bed and then I was like, well, I got to get new bedding even though it's the same size as my old bed. So I did buy a full set of new sheets. I bought a new comforter thing, new pillows. I bought a kit to make a latch hook, throw pillow that would match. And I'm not buying classy sheets. I'm buying things that would've delighted me as a child or a teenager. Important. And I've been doing that in lots of areas of my life, buying things that I wanted when I was younger that I didn't have. I have a star machine, I have this, my office is in this weird attic full of stuffed animals. I guess maybe that's regressing, but it feels like self care. No, it's caring for your inner child. I think that's, they say, yeah, I've made my inner child like a little nest. I've been eating otter pops right and left.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (14:12):
Oh, I love
Lindy West (14:12):
That. And I got a haircut and I had the stylist leave. I pinned them up right now, but I have two little rat tails, a ridiculous haircut that I thought for sure I was not cool enough to have. And now look at you correctly, but now look at me. I can just have it if I want. You know what I mean? Say
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (14:37):
One more. That I'm becoming one of those TikTok Water women. This was a big trend for a while where the TikTok water women were getting big Stanley's and making little tinctures out of electrolyte powder. So unfortunately I do that now. I was like, God, these people are, yeah, they got you. These people are cuckoo for Cocoa puffs. And I recently went to the doctor and she's like, well, how are you feeling? And I was like, Deb, I feel great. I've been drinking water with electrolytes in it. And I was like, you guys weren't joking about the hydration? She's like, no, we weren't. I was like, the medical profession was right. You should drink more water. She's like, yeah, we're not taken in by Big Aquafina. And I was like, well, I know that now
Lindy West (15:17):
Deb. I just thought of something else, which is that I've also been doing the dark side of self-care, which is called Go for a walk every day and listen to my body. I realized that, oh God forbid, forbid I know having cream in my coffee was giving me a tummy ache, so stopped. I stopped eating dairy and I feel way better. And I am so mad, I hate it. But if you're not having ice cream anymore, great excuse to eat more otter pops,
Elise Hu (15:50):
Which is what I've been doing. It's all makes sense. It all makes sense. Well, since the two of you are besties, something that we wanted to give y'all the floor for is to hype each other up. So Lindy hype up Meagan and Meagan hype up Lindy. Oh my God,
Lindy West (16:11):
That's so nice. I'll go first. I am so in awe of Meagan every single day because here's the thing about Meagan, she's the funniest person I've ever met in my life. So funny, I have not stopped screaming since the day we met in senior year of high school. I am amazed every time she opens her mouth, she says the funniest thing I've ever heard. But then also, she's a genius who works in Washington DC and she knows how all the parts of the government work and she does press conferences and writes memos. And I know that if I forget what time the podcast taping is, Meagan will text me and be like, don't forget the podcast taping.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (17:00):
Not that she's saying that that happened earlier today,
Lindy West (17:06):
But it's like, here's the thing, here's the, that blows my mind. I feel like Meagan has all of the strengths that make me special, being funny and creative. But then she also has the regular people skills of being competent and effective. So nice, such good hype. She puts on makeup, she does her hair curls, she her hair's clean. Unlike these guys look at my bang. I dunno, just to top it all off, I don't know how many hours she has in her day, but it's like she does all that. And then she's also seen every season of every television show. And I'm like, when I find Meagan very aspirational, she also, she has great boundaries. She's not afraid to stand up for herself. Another thing with which I struggle, so great role model for me
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (18:03):
That's
Lindy West (18:03):
A mentor, really nice, really.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (18:05):
But also I was born like a fail son. You know what I mean? I was born, I didn't get diagnosed with a DHD until I was in my thirties. And up to that point, that was a very dark time. I never remembered anything that ever happened. I never remembered where I was supposed to be. I really had to spend 10 years teaching myself how to function basically. And so it's actually very validating
(18:33)
To have someone be like, you're competent. I was like, I think from, not that I was incompetent, that's unkind to say about me. I just had this undiagnosed thing that was preventing me from functioning, using my calendar and showing up to things that I promised people I would go to. So it's very nice to be like, oh yes, it's right. It's true. I did it. Okay, but I'll hype up, Lindy, first of all, you're so unkind to yourself. You're like the best person I've ever met. We met senior year of high school and I don't remember a time before that. You know what I mean? You ever just meet somebody and you're just like, oh yeah, dude, this friendship is going to rock, or whatever, or this relationship. I think people talk a lot about love at first sight with romantic partners, but I don't think we spend enough time talking about bestie at first sight when you meet someone and you're like, oh yeah, we're fricking gelling, dude.
(19:27)
Like this rocks. And I don't remember exactly what she said, but she said something that she just made this joke that I understood completely. And I was like, I've been waiting to find someone to have stupid jokes that I don't have to explain. This is going to be beautiful. And she's just like, she truly is. Not to plagiarize her, but she truly is the funniest person I've ever met. It was so satisfying to just, and heartwarming to meet someone who shared a lot of my same interests that are very niche, incredibly niche. And I don't have to spend 30 minutes explaining why the joke is funny. I can't tell you how free I felt the first time we just drove around in her car just screaming for five hours or whatever. So making this podcast together has been a real treat because it's like everything I love about our friendship, and now we get to share it with everybody else. And it's so special because Lindy is so special. The reason people listen to our podcast is because Lindy has had this massive effect on how people see themselves, how people see their bodies. And she really does write and joke in a way that I actually cannot do.
(20:37)
She always calls herself very soft, but I say soft parentheses complimentary because you are very sensitive in a good way to other people's feelings and in a way that I'm not. I just really don't have a lot of patience for people who are being annoying. And so I really look up to Lindy in that regard because she is able to be like, well, maybe we could extend some grace to this person. And I'll be like, well, why would we do that? So it's like she has everything that I like about myself except the stuff that I don't have, which is being patient and kind. I don't have any of that. So I'm jealous, I guess, in a sense of that skillset. That's
Lindy West (21:14):
Why we're a perfect team.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (21:15):
That's right up top.
Doree Shafrir (21:17):
You guys just talked about how you met senior year and the premise of your podcast is kind of what you guys text each other about every week. So can you tell our listeners about the show, about what you text each other every week?
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (21:34):
God, well, the show's so hard to explain because it really is just everything you've heard over the last five minutes is our show. It's really just like
Elise Hu (21:42):
You're getting a sample right here, folks.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (21:43):
Yeah, it really's is just the coziness of talking to your best friend. I think that people like our show because I think that we are a particular type of 40 something year old woman who have inner child issues. Their inner children need fancy sheets, star machines, star machines, stuffed animals, things of this nature. And every week is just stuff that we think is funny. And it turns out other people think that's really funny too. And that's everything from a snake that Lindy learned about or science discovered a new worm or What's my dog doing or what's Lindy's dog doing? We do talk about TikTok trends. We just recently were talking about the budget decorating videos that have overtaken my algorithm and I never want it to end. Are you
Doree Shafrir (22:32):
Talking about the ones from the eighties and nineties or,
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (22:35):
Yeah, like nineties with Joan.
Doree Shafrir (22:38):
Yes. I just reposted one of those, the children's overalls above the bed. Did you see that one?
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (22:43):
I have not seen that one yet. Oh, I'm so excited. We just recently lost our mind over the one where they were like, we have a surprise remodel that we did in the closet, and they opened the closet and the lady's kid is in there sitting on a beanbag chair reading in the dark, and her name's Kelsey and Joan's like, Kelsey, I love what you've done with this. Was this your idea? And then Kelsey bursts into tears and she's so overwhelmed with what's going on. And I was like, this show
Lindy West (23:13):
Rocks. I think a good way to explain our show is that an ideal episode for us would be to track down Kelsey and talk to her and find out what the deal was if she's
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (23:22):
Okay. Yeah. So I think our show is basically, I guess our elevator pitch is do you ever just call up your best friend? You don't have anything in particular you want to talk to him about, and then you just have a two hour conversation and at the end your stomach hurts from laughing. That's the text me back podcast guarantee. I think an
Lindy West (23:41):
Awesome
Elise Hu (23:41):
Pitch. That
Lindy West (23:41):
Was a great pitch. Love that. Thank you. And I think they're also just by necessity in these times, there is this kind of political angle to it, which is that we don't talk about politics that much except Meghan works in politics and we're very sort of politically passionate. So we're all bravely affected by
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (24:06):
Politics, whether you're explicitly talking about it or not.
Lindy West (24:09):
So part of the show is finding a balance where sometimes we address things, especially with Meagan's professional expertise, which we call day job, LLC, on the show. Sometimes we'll do a whole segment that is very grounding and helps people feel a little bit less terrified or more terrified. But sometimes it'll just be an explainer of why is this happening? What does this mean? How is the media getting this wrong? So sometimes every once in a while we'll do something like that, but we actually try more because you can get news and analysis lots of places. We try more to be kind of a place where people can go to have a moment of escape and lightness and joy in their regular life without being one of those people who keeps their head in the sand and pretends politics isn't happening.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (25:10):
I think our show's very influenced by politics, whether or not we're providing analysis. So I used to, my background's in democracy work and I used to work for Indivisible, so there's obviously a lot of people organizing involved in that job. So I never want to say something about politics and not give people something to do. I don't want to. But sometimes it's really important really to just vent. There might not be a call to action, there might not be anything we can do in that moment, but it's like, do you guys want to talk about how Elon Musk and Donald Trump got into a fight over the big beautiful Bill and then Elon Musk dropped a bomb that he's in the Epstein files all over the place and then our listeners kind of get to go on that journey with us, even though there's nothing to do about that. There's nothing I or any of us can do about this, but it's important to talk it through.
Elise Hu (25:56):
Totally. I mean, my version of that was the Ted Cruz Tucker Carlson interview. Yes, I watched that all day long last week just because there were so many clips and memes that came out of
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (26:08):
It. Yeah, there's nothing to do about that. But I think it's important to know that you're not alone in seeing how crazy this all is. Because I think a lot of what happens in politics these days is that something very objectively insane happens and then the media reporting of it will be like controversial businessman, Elon Musk insults at Donald Trump. And it's like, well, I don't really think that explains exactly what happened. Oh my God, it sounds like they were trading favors. The world's richest man was leveraging money over the President of the United States for political favors. That's what maybe the headline could say that. So I think our show, to the extent that we very explicitly get into news and analysis, it's to just be like, I want you to know this is crazy. You're not wrong. Whatever the New York Times is maybe saying about it is not. You're right. Not a good headline, just want you to know that we see it too.
Doree Shafrir (27:04):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (27:16):
So in the spirit of texting our besties, Dorian and I looked at our phones to see what our besties have been texting us lately. As of this morning, over the past 24 hours, two separate friends have sent me the article in the New Yorker about how kids aren't having sex anymore. Have y'all seen this? I
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (27:36):
Saw the headline. I heard that we have a crisis of prudishness among the younger
Elise Hu (27:42):
Generation cipher that it's a sex recession, but among the Zoomers Zoomers in particular. So I wanted to get y'all's take, we think, are you concerned?
Lindy West (27:53):
I know this is a right wing talking point, so maybe it's good that I don't understand or care, but when people get all worried about dropping birth rates, I
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (28:02):
Don't care.
(28:03)
Who cares? I was just going to say that same thing. It feels like a lot of this is rooted in sort of a right wing concern about birth rates. So it's like people in their twenties, early twenties aren't exploring their bodies and having a good time at college. We'll never have more kids to become this foundation of our capitalist society. So it feels a little bit like that fearmongering about whether or not kids want to, because when we were growing up, they kept being like, don't have sex. It's evil, and it's so bad, it's so bad. And then all the kids were like, okay, we won't. And they're like, whoa, but I want to call the birth rate.
Elise Hu (28:37):
It's that because they're so exposed to porn and all the variety that is presented, they're a little paralyzed when they're actually dealing with carnal relations in real life. I
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (28:49):
See. There's no way the real life version is going to match up with what they saw on PornHub. Yeah. Well, that makes sense. I feel like older people, I mean by older people, I mean people our age, people in their forties, like elder millennials to millennials are really preoccupied with what Zoomers and Gen Z kids are getting up to in a way that I never gave a singular shit about when I was, and kind of vice versa, where Gen Z is like, oh, millennials are cringe. And millennials are like, I took that personally. And I think it's just because we coexist on social media platforms in a way that the town square, I guess in a way that I never saw someone 10 years older than me in my life when I was in middle school. Whatever it is that kids are or not doing for some reason why, that's our business now. I don't care. Go play soccer. I don't care.
Elise Hu (29:47):
Meagan Hatcher maze, everybody, I don't care. Do whatever. Go play
Lindy West (29:51):
Soccer. That's a euphemism for birth rates. Look, abolish the internet. Yes, let's get rid of it. Yes. Good. I'm not surprised that the internet is messing up young people's libidos and relationships. The internet is bad, and I don't have anything more nuanced to say it's bad if we're talking about internet pornography having a warping effect on the minds of its consumers. And look, I understand that women have robust libidos and horniness levels as well, but are we mainly talking about boys becoming crazy from watching too much porn? I don't. I mean, right. Probably. Yeah,
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (30:40):
Probably.
Lindy West (30:41):
In which case, if the girls are, I don't want the girls to be with the boys with the warped brains. You know
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (30:50):
What I mean? There's this take that men are entitled to relationships, they're entitled to affection and they're entitled to sex. And all these girls are like, well, could you try being a normal human person to me? And then maybe we could go on a date, but instead they're just get into it. And there was this vibe of that kind of permeating this, at least this one student's high school after the election too.
Lindy West (31:15):
Also with Roe overturned, I'm sorry. It's dangerous to have sex for women. I don't know. That's
Elise Hu (31:23):
Part of the landscape. That's part of the reality now. Yeah. We have an advice question for y'all. Your content creating machines now, because there's also a newsletter and the podcast Instagram and a YouTube because you're putting all your podcasts on video, and then Lindy, you've always been a big writer. So how do you keep up with all of the content churn and managing exhaustion? Tired. We're constantly doing this too. And is there a way to find a certain balance with it?
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (31:55):
We're tired too. We're so tired. We're so tired. We don't do a good job keeping up with the flow. I would say, I guess I think if I was going to be extremely kind to us and to our production schedule, if I may, one thing is we both love doing this, and I think the reason that we're willing to deal with some exhaustion is because I think we both really just want to do this all the time. This is the most fun I've ever had making something. I went to law school, but it's not like I derive joy from being like, Hey guys, the Supreme Court sucks. Just letting you know. Well, sometimes I do. It depends on the day, but this is really, it's tiring, but it's also very life affirming to make this very funny podcast with my best friend that we've actually been, we used to joke about having a radio show when we were in high school, and now we do, even though the radio doesn't really exist, but I dunno. So it's a churn and we're not great at staying on top of it, but we do okay because we really love it. And the community around our podcast is so beautiful and lovely that it's very encouraging. You know what I mean? To
(33:02)
Have the people who listen to it be like, this was so funny, or I really liked this part of it, and just have that sort of cycle of affirmation I guess, about the show. It makes it kind of easy to keep doing. And I guess as far as advice is, so our podcast is not solvent, I would say, but we do make enough money to make the podcast. And I think what Lindy and I have decided is could we take a bigger cut of the money that we get if we did everything ourselves? Yes. Would that kill us both also? Yes. So instead we take money that we make from our Patreon or for our ads or whatever, and we pay other people to help us. Same. So we pay producer to help us make the show. That same producer also makes the YouTube videos for us. She makes the clips for our social media. And so it's not like we're rolling in cash with the podcast, but we probably take about 50% of what we make in our Patreon and pay someone else to help us continue to make it. Because yeah, we could take that money, but we'd be dead.
Lindy West (34:10):
And I think, I want to say also, if you're a person who wants to have a creative career, a thing that we decided pretty early on was that we wanted to make the podcast that we wanted to make. And there were all kinds of, I think, savvier moves we could have made in terms of positioning ourselves in the landscape. And we didn't do that. And we don't spend our time chasing sort of avenues that don't come naturally to us or don't bring us joy.
Elise Hu (34:45):
So
Lindy West (34:46):
We don't, I see what really successful podcasts do. And there's a lot of that stuff is obviously not all of it is accessible to us. We can't have Obama on or whatever. You dunno that, you dunno that. But I'm happy. I am so much happier with the size of podcasts that we have and the creative freedom that we have. And I think that there's no greater asset to any creative project than staying close to yourself and working from instinct and from what actually makes you happy and what you enjoy making. Because all of this is fake and fleeting and you could do all of the social media strategy that you want and burn yourself out doing that and still not have a million dollar podcast. You know what I mean?
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (35:53):
And then you're just putting out slop that the algorithm rewards, which is almost never, I mean, it might go viral, but it's not good. Sometimes good stuff does
Lindy West (36:03):
Go viral, but not always. So we don't spend time chasing our audience, I guess is what I'm trying to say. We make the thing that we want to make and trust that that's going to make it something better than if we were just pandering. Yeah. Life isn't livable if you're pandering is all I'm trying to say.
Doree Shafrir (36:21):
Well, and it's nice to be able to do that without losing money. Maybe you're not making millions of dollars, but at least you're not losing money getting to do this.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (36:32):
Yes. I think that's been, it's so exciting when we hit a little milestone where it's like, okay, we have enough podcast money to fly to New York to be a part of this podcast festival and be on the show or whatever. And just recently, I mean one of, I don't know if I could just be transparent, but one of the reasons we're on this show with you is because we paid someone to help us with the marketing for the show. And we can't do that unless without this kind of really incredible group of people who listen to our show and subscribe to our Patreon. Literally, this community is helping us further this podcast. And I think in a lot of ways that's a lot easier to continue to do. Then it's like, oh, I guess we got to go make our podcast for podcasts Corp. Hope for the best. I dunno. So it's tiring, but in a good way too. And also it feels good to be like bring it more people in experts and people who really actually know how to make a podcast and have them be a part of this with us too. Cool.
Doree Shafrir (37:35):
Well, if our listeners want to listen to your podcast, follow your podcast on Instagram, subscribe to your newsletter, or see a live show, how can they do that?
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (37:44):
Okay. We're an independent podcast, as I've just mentioned. So we do it all ourselves. So if you like what you're hearing and you want to support independent art, and that's what our podcast is at the end of the day, it's a beautiful masterpiece, a beautiful piece of artwork. patreon.com/text me back pod, and we're on Instagram at Text Me Back pod. I know people have a lot of fraught feelings about Instagram. We do too. But if you want to see what we look like and what we're getting up to, it's a good place to go. By the way, if you like New York Times bestselling author, Lindy West, you're going to love the newsletter. She writes it. Yeah. And it's free. It's called Newsletter Me Back, and you can find it at newsletter me back.substack.com. And sorry, it's on. But there's only so much two women can do in the system that we exist in. So I'm sorry.
Elise Hu (38:31):
Don't hate the players. Hate the
Doree Shafrir (38:33):
Game.
Meagan Hatcher-Mays (38:33):
Yes. Please hate the game. I'm begging you to hate the game.
Doree Shafrir (38:37):
Lindy and Meagan, thank you so much for coming on the show. This was truly a delight to get to talk to you both, so thank you.
Elise Hu (38:45):
Thank you both. Thanks having thanks for having us. Yeah, it was so fun. Thank you so much to Lindy and Meagan. Y'all are a hoot. And remember, their show is Text Me Back. You can find it wherever you listen.
Doree Shafrir (38:58):
Elise, how did Skin Hydration go?
Elise Hu (39:01):
I went and splurged for the $60 gift set of Sosu products at Sephora because I had been really into that, their really popular serum, the first care, whatever serum that I had a little tester of from my birthday gift. You know how Sephora you get your birthday pack? And so I started using that on a trip recently. And then because of my skin hydration intention, I was like, I'm going to just get the bigger bottle. And I got the bigger bottle of that. And then they're moisturizing lotion. And I've been working that into my skincare routine and I feel pretty good. I feel pretty good. Love that. And then I'm also trying to hydrate, just generally just to drink more water because I drink so much tea flavored teas I'm really into. I drink a lot of black tea with strawberry acai. You see me drinking my Starbucks all the time on our interviews, but I'm trying to just drink water. So I'm doing my best. I probably still don't drink enough water according to whatever the expert advice is, but doing my best. What about you, Dora? You wanted to do another life task, like tackle some things? Yes.
Doree Shafrir (40:13):
So Matt and I went to Costco and got eye exams
Elise Hu (40:19):
First, the DMV, then eye exams. The eye exams. I know what can a romantic
Doree Shafrir (40:26):
Time. Yeah, truly. And it turns out I did think my prescription needed to be tweaked a little bit. Not drastically, but I was starting to notice, especially when I was playing tennis at night, I was like, things are looking a little fuzzier. And she confirmed I need just a little tweak. So I got two new pairs of glasses, one for regular activities and then one for tennis. Oh, cool. And I will get some prescription sunglasses probably from I buy direct or something soon. So that was exciting.
Elise Hu (41:08):
Can I ask, are frames at Costco more affordable than Warby Parker?
Doree Shafrir (41:15):
I think so. I think it sort of depends on what you get. They were having, they seemed a little cheaper than the MSRP and then also they were running a sale where if you bought two pairs of glasses, you got $50 off. So that made it cheaper. I checked the prices that definitely made it cheaper than not, and I needed them anyway, so I was like, let me just get 'em and be done with it. So yes. So that is what we did. And this week I am just focusing on tennis, preparing for sectionals.
Lindy West (42:00):
Yay.
Doree Shafrir (42:02):
And also just trying to remind myself that yes, it'd be great to win, it'd be great to go to nationals, but I just want to have fun and play some tennis and have a good time.
Elise Hu (42:12):
Yeah. Well you mentioned at the start of our casual chat that I had actually put on makeup, and so this actually ties to my intention, which is to get ready in the mornings. I feel like I'm getting made fun of by my kids a lot. This shouldn't be the reason why, but my kids make fun of me a lot about how embarrassing I look at Dropoffs in the morning.
Doree Shafrir (42:35):
Wow.
Elise Hu (42:37):
Yeah, because they're like, oh, you're wearing the same shorts as yesterday and the day before and the day before change. So I'm going to try and get dressed in the morning as if I have a place to go.
Doree Shafrir (42:52):
Okay.
Elise Hu (42:53):
Yeah.
Doree Shafrir (42:53):
Alright. I like this
Elise Hu (42:55):
For you. This is kind of an embarrassing intention, but I think that it kind helps set your day. Yes. So I'm going to do that this week. It might only last for a week, ladies and gents.
Doree Shafrir (43:07):
Well, you know what? Please report back. Let us know how it goes. Okay. Alright. Well thanks everybody. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner's Acast. Thanks everyone.
Elise Hu (43:26):
Talk to you again soon.