Product Recall: Nair

Mini-EpisodesProduct Recall
Written By Forever 35 Podcast

This week, Doree guides Kate through the history of Nair and the wild west that was, and still is, hair removal. They discuss the safety of using Nair on balls, the use of the implausible X-ray salons, and the connection between hair removal and tanning practices. 

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Transcript

 

Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer, 

Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir. 

Kate: And we are not experts. 

Doree: Now we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums. 

Kate: Today we are bringing you product recall, a weekly episode where we dig deeper into the history of an iconic product and its impact. It's coming every Friday here on Forever35, 

Doree: And we are taking requests. So if you have a product you would like us to recall, please call or text us at (781) 591-0390, or email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com. 

Kate: Everything we mention on today's episode, videos, references, et cetera, can be found on our website forever35podcast.com. You can find us on Instagram @Forever35 podcast, or join the Forever35 Facebook group. our password is serums sign up for our newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And you can find all the products that we love to buy at shopmy.us/Forever35. 

Doree: And just a quick reminder that our live show is happening this Wednesday February 22nd at 5:00 PM Pacific, 8:00 PM Eastern, and you can get tickets at moment.co/forever five. Those tickets are $10. The show will also be available on demand for a week after it airs. So if you can't make it live, just get that ticket and catch the recorded version afterwards. There's also going to be an after party, or you can end the night with some final thoughts and intentions in the hotel lounge. Before we all head off for cozy slumber 

Kate: Time for bed. So Doree, you're in charge today. 

Doree: I sure am. Kate. 

Kate: I'm the passenger on your train. 

Doree: Yep. 

Kate: Yep. So Choo choo 

Doree: Well, Kate, I am going to kick things off with a commercial. 

Kate: This is my favorite way to go. Okay. Okay. I'm ready. 

Doree: Are you ready? 

Kate: I hope so. Okay, 

Doree: Here we go. 

Commercial: Who wear short shorts? 

Kate: I could sing this. 

Commercial: We Wear short shorts, if you dare wear short shorts Nair for short shorts. You want your legs short, shorts fair. Without mixing cuts. Just take up the Nair and take off the hair. Short, Shorts, If you dare wear short shorts Nair for short shorts. Nair lotion, cream foam, and new lemon spray. Nair, for short shorts. 

Kate: Holy shit. That jingle just came back to me like muscle memory. 

Doree: I mean, it was everywhere. 

Kate: I have chills. I don't know why, but I have literal chills. 

Doree: So, Kate, today we're talking about Nair 

Kate: Doree. What is Nair? 

Doree: The hair removal product that comes in a roll on, comes in a cream. Various, various formats. That commercial that you saw is from the seventies. I am not sure. I have to admit, I'm not sure if it is the original 1975. We wear short shorts commercial because they really beat this one into the ground. 

Kate: They were like, you're going to wear short shorts, goddammit. 

Doree: But their original 1975 commercial won a Cleo Award 

Kate: That. Seriously? 

Doree: Yes. And it was. So basically that commercial, you see four women of different races wearing very short shorts. 

Kate: They dared. They dared to wear those Short shorts. 

Doree: They dared to wear those short shorts. They're shaking their butts in the beginning of the commercial. They're on the steps of a brownstone, it looks like in New York City. And they're kind of shaking their butts. They're young, they're attractive. They start doing some high kicks. 

Kate: They're all very thin. 

Doree: They're all very thin. Yes. The diversity does not extend to body type. So this was the commercial and the jingle that really catapulted Nair, I think fully into the popular consciousness. So today we're going to be talking about Nair. We're also going to be talking kind of more broadly about hair removal. 

Kate: I mean. 

Doree: In general, 

Kate: Something that I have struggled with thought about since I was probably eight years old. 

Doree: So Nair is what's called a depilatory, which is a category of hair removal. That is something you spread on your body. You wait a certain number of minutes and then you rub it off and the hair just comes right off. 

Kate: Now, have you ever used Nair? 

Doree: I have not used Nair because quite honestly, I personally am nervous about Nair. They now have a sensitive skin version. I could do a patch test and try it, but I am nervous to use it. 

Kate: Now as someone who has used it, it is wild 

Doree: Because the hair just melts right off. 

Kate: It does. First of all, the smell is overpowering. If you were to, 

Doree: When was the last time you used it? Just out of curiosity. 

Kate: Recently I have, I'm pretty sure I have a bottle in my bathroom. I've used it for my bikini line recently, I think. But as a kid, I'm pretty sure it was something that my mom bought me because I am a person with a lot of body hair and on my legs. I was made fun of it, made fun of for it. And when I wanted to start shaving, I'm pretty sure that was one of the things she started with. Very messy. 

Doree: So this is very interesting. Now, first of all, let's just talk about the word Nair. Nair is a portamento for no hair. 

Kate: Okay, that makes sense. 

Doree: Which makes sense. The main ingredient in Nair is either calcium thioglycolate, or potassium thioglycolate. It depends whether you're using the formulation for your body or for your face. 

Kate: Why does it need to be different? 

Doree: Because the face one is not as powerful. So if you use the body stuff on your face, not the best idea. And Nair launched in 1940. 

Kate: Really? 

Doree: Yep. 

Kate: Oh my God. All these products are so old that we talk about. 

Doree: Yeah. Cool. So they, Nair is not the first depilatory, right? Right. But like we saw with Noxzema, they were really good at branding. Like Nair is a kind of genius name for a hair removal product, right? Yes. And in one of their first print advertisements, the big headline was Amazing. New cosmetic discovery removes hair. So they were kind of situating themselves as this brand new easy thing for people to use. 

Kate: Even though they weren't technically brand new. 

Doree: And this is what the text of the advertisement said. In a few brief minutes, the hairiest legs or arms become as smooth as soft and smooth and inviting as the skin of a baby. Not a hair, not a fuzz in sight. Whenever this new cosmetic is applied, no waxes are smelly creams, you merely spread on Nair and away goes the hair. It is simply marvelous. Nair looks like your own face cream, and it smells just as nice. Yet, in a few minutes, your skin is excitingly smooth. Your legs beneath those new stockings take on a completely new glamor and allure. Nair is so sensationally different because it is made under us patent 1,973,130 important 39 cents a tube at all stores that sell toilet goods. And then there was a free trial offer if you wrote to them, and they would send you a free trial tube. So what I found interesting about this initial early advertisement for Nair is they mentioned the patent, 

Kate: Right? So they're saying this is the only one. 

Doree: This is new. This has a sort of a scientific sheen to it. It smells good, which up for debate, and it will make you as smooth as the skin of a baby. We have. But we have seen this type of verbiage before, this callback to wanting the skin of your youth. I mean, we saw this with Noxzema. Yeah, we saw this with sun in also. 

Kate: Well, it's just this infatuation with I think, beyond just youth like immortality. Yes. Nobody, we don't want to die. 

Doree: So one of the reasons why Nair smells so bad is that it attacks the sulfur bonds within the keratin of your hair. So what you're actually smelling is the sulfur. 

Kate: Oh god. 

Doree: Which smells like rotten eggs. 

Kate: I have to interrupt and just tell you that I might have Nair competitor. Veet. Okay. I'm not sure which I have. 

Doree: Okay, well Veet is a competitor to Nair. 

Kate: I'm assuming they basically smell. I mean, I've used both. They probably smell the same pungent scent. 

Doree: Yes. So before we kind of get into it, I just want to give you a sense of where Nair is right now, which is, first of all, in 2018, creams made up the greatest share of the hair removal market. 

Kate: Are you serious? More than razors? 

Doree: More than razors, which I was shocked by. This is from a survey by a company called Grandview Research. So creams were the biggest share of the market in 2018. 

Kate: I'm Shocked. I was genuinely shocked. 

Doree: Another survey in 2020 found that 9.8 million people in the US had used Nair in 2020. 

Kate: So, Hearing this, do you know what this makes me wonder? And I don't know if you've found anything that A, actually, is this, why has hair removal not gone through the kind of online product makeover the same way? Everything just gets kind of rebranded as something a little bit chic-er 

Doree: Yeah. 

Kate: Where is the disruptor? Where Silicon Valley creating a, 

Doree: Where's the himns for Nair? 

Kate: Yeah. Where's the Billy Razor of Nair? 

Doree: Kate, I don't know. But that's a great question. And maybe you should start that. 

Kate: You know what, I'm going to leave the podcasting and writing businesses for my really, it's going to be so obnoxious. Every dollar gives back gives. I mean, it's going to be the most obnoxious online digital company. 

Doree: So Nair, so Nair launched in 1940 with a cream, and then in 1977, they introduced a baby oil formula. In 1985, they introduced a roll on, in 1990, they introduced Nair Wax, Which Is a different product. And then in 2001, they introduced Nair for men. 

Kate: Oh, fascinating. So 

Doree: That was an interesting move for them which we will get back to in a minute. I'm just giving you the timeline of their products. Correct. Great. In 2007, they introduced a sensitive formula 

Kate: That took a long time. 

Doree: And then also in 2007, they introduced a line called Nair Pretty, which was aimed 

Kate: No, no. 

Doree: At 10 to 15 year olds. 

Kate: No, Doree, don't do this to me. No. 

Doree: Yep. 

Kate: No. Nair Pretty? 

Doree: Nair Pretty. 

Kate: In 2010. 

Doree: 2007. 

Kate: Oh Seven. Still just as bad. 

Doree: Yep. 

Kate: Oh God. Okay. Oh, I'm upset now. 

Doree: They introduced a Brazilian spa clay line in 2012, and in two 14 they introduced a Moroccan argon oil line. 

Kate: Oh My God. I'm really ticked off. 

Doree: So one thing that I found interesting about Nair and the way that they've kind of evolved over the last 50 years, I guess, is they're still kind of leaning into this fresh-faced sex appeal vibe, 

Kate: Which is so creepy. Have they ever done a, do you dare wear short shorts? But it's now men doing that ad. 

Doree: Okay. So yeah, they seems like now they are really trying to target men in a way. I mean, that they've been doing since 2001 when they launched Nair for men. But it's just interesting, kind of see it now on TikTok. So we're going to take a short break. Okay. And then we'll come back and we have a lot more to talk about. So when Nair launched, it was definitely marketed to women. It was meant for women. Women were the target audience. And then in 2001, they launched near for men. And there was A quote from a New York Times article from 2004 that analyzed Nair for men. And it said, Nair for Mens marketing Challenge was to convince potential customers that using Nair didn't imply a loss of machismo. 

Kate: Ugh. 

Doree: The product was packaged in white bottles rather than the pink ones of its counter part for women. The chemical formula was altered only to remove a floral fragrance. So the way that is now manifesting is in TikTok, like this one, which this is an ad, this is a paid ad. 

Kate: It's a influencer doing a paid, 

Doree: A influencer doing a paid ad for Nair. So I just want to make sure everyone has that context. 

Commercial: Why is the world's easiest way? 

Doree: It's also ASMR 

Kate: Okay. I was like, what? 

Commercial: Body spray, hair remover, shake spray. Remove. And smooth. 

Kate: Everything about this. Oh, he's cute though. He's kind of cute. 

Doree: So 

Kate: He's wearing a teddy bear hat. 

Doree: He is wearing a teddy bear hat. 

Kate: What is the name of this Influencer? 

Doree: This influencer is Jake Jamie. He has 2.1 million followers. 

Kate: Holy smokes. 

Doree: His bio is co-creator of that TikTok famous watermelon face mask shot my products. I believe he is a British beauty influencer. 

Kate: Okay. Well he's cute. 

Doree: He is very cute. Yeah. So Nair obviously paid him to do an ad for them. 

Kate: That Ad is convincing 

Doree: And that ad is convincing. And it has 236,000 likes. 

Kate: In my experience, what is misleading about this ad and what I think gets really kind of foggy when you're dealing with influencers as ad as advertisers, is that with influencers, we think we're getting an authentic ad. I feel like we're savvy enough that we're like, oh an ad in a magazine or on tv that's all fake, but an influencer. Like they're not lying to us. But it's the same as an ad on tv, for example. The way that for sure, that person rubs the cream off and the hair comes right off, makes it look so seamless and clean and easy. Yes. When in my experience it is gloopy clumpy mess. There's hair on every washcloth, not all the hair comes off. So you have weird patches. 

Doree: So I totally hear you about the confusing nature of influencer ads on social media. What I do think is interesting about Nair, and I think we kind of saw this with Sunon and to some extent also with Noxzema, is that there is now this population of people on TikTok who are either discovering Nair for the first time or rediscovering Nair. And I just wanted to show you this other that this person says is not sponsored. Okay. So I'm going to take her at her word and we'll play this video. 

Commercial: Yes. Oh my God. Yes, yes, Yes. I cannot gate keep this product any longer. When I tell you this is the best at home quick hair removal method, especially for those of you with sensitive skin. I'm not lying. I'm 30. I remember how bad Nair used to be. It stung and burned and it stunk bad. It wreaked. This shit is so good. So the way this product works is it essentially changes the pH and breaks down the keratin bonds of your hair so that your hair detaches as a cosmetic formulator with a focus on clean ingredients and sensitive skin friendly formulas. I don't mind this at all. Now here is the trick, because there is a trick. You can leave this on up to 10 minutes. I personally only go for eight just cause I have more sensitive skin to actually take off all the hair you need this an exfoliating mit when you get in the shower to rinse off around the eight minute mark. 

Doree: Now Kate's listening 

Commercial: very, very gently going circles, notes. So fibers pick up the hair and pull it all off. The hair does not come off as easily if you just plain rinse it. Oh, 

Doree: Okay. So 

Kate: I was influenced. 

Doree: Kate was influenced. What is also interesting about this is that in the comments, the first, the top comment is someone saying, so we're using Nair and shopping at Abercrombie. Look at us healing our millennial trauma. 

Kate: I did also just buy some jeans at Abercrombie recently. I'm waiting for them to arrive. What's interesting too, just kind of talking about TikTok language and is this, I'm not going to gate keep is such common language now, and I don't gate keep. I tell you all my secrets. And I do feel like the second someone sets it up, they're not going to hold this to the chest. They're going to tell everybody You lean in. Right? Yeah. I'm like, okay. I'm listening now. 

Doree: Totally, totally. 

Kate: But it's just again, another tactic. 

Doree: Yeah. 

Kate: But again, I'm now, maybe I should go check out an Nair and get those gloves and see what happens. 

Doree: So yeah. So you definitely are seeing this. I think more on social media. There's also a lot of videos that aren't that interesting to play just with audio because there's not really any talking but of men using Nair to get rid of the very hairy backs and other hairy parts of their body. Well, I'm just going to play, going to play this one, TikTok, because it made me laugh. 

Commercial: Should you use Nair for your balls? Nair is a product that uses chemicals. 

Kate: What? 

Commercial: To remove hair, in simplest terms, hair is protein. Nair dissolves the protein of hair. Now, specifically the shaft of the hair or the hair above the skin, not the root. In short, you can, but maybe you shouldn't. These are super sensitive and Nair Can be harsh for the skin 

Doree: He's holding two balls. 

Commercial: Like, I can use sriracha to lube the bone, but I don't know if I should. I'd also like to debunk the rumors. I'm not a balloligist, I'm just a medical student who likes teaching you about your body tap follow for more. 

Kate: Oh, I think what really did it for me in that video was the remix of the office theme song underneath a medical student talking about balls. Which to be fair, if I had balls, I can see why I would want to get the hair off. 

Doree: Totally, totally. So what I found in looking at a lot of these Tiktoks is that the comments, a lot of the comments were from people who had used Nair in the past, and a lot of them had been traumatized by it. And then people either saying it's been reformulated or you know, weren't using it correctly or what have you. But I think what this points to, and this is what I want to kind of get into a little bit now, is just the kind of broader societal obsession with getting rid of hair. And I was really interested in this because I was like, where did this come from? 

Kate: Did you find the answer? 

Doree: I think I did. And it was from a really great book called Plucked. 

Kate: Wait, I'm pretty sure my college professor wrote this book, Rebecca Herzig. 

Doree: And it is by a professor from Bates. 

Kate: Oh my God. It's from my, I'm going to cry. 

Doree: I was going to ask you if, I couldn't tell if she seemed quite young. 

Kate: She was so young. Doree. 

Doree: Yeah. She must have been young when you 

Kate: She was 

Doree: okay. 

Kate: She was a mentor to me. She was the fucking coolest. I was in a seminar with her and she would have a over to her apartment 

Doree: Aww. 

Kate: She's a brilliant, I was a women's studies major now called Gender studies at Bates College. And Rebecca was one of my professors. And she I think went to MIT and brought a lot of sexism. Misogyny in medicine. Taught me about Oh, interesting. The origin of the vibrator. She's brilliant. Oh my God, I can't believe this. I'm dying. Okay. So 

Doree: Her book is really good. 

Kate: Yeah, obviously. Cause she's fucking amazing. 

Doree: I highly recommend it, even if you're just mildly interested in this topic. It's fascinating. It's an academic book, but it is not written in a very accessible way, I found and she tells a really, really interesting story. So I am going to give some very broad strokes here with the understanding that if you are interested in this topic, you'll go read Rebecca's Book. 

Kate: And if you're a student at Bates College right now, appreciate what you have in front of you. 

Doree: So she traces the contemporary obsession with hair removal, particularly among white women to the late 19th century. And that it wasn't until the 1920s that large numbers of women really began routine, what she says routinely removing hair below the neck. 

Kate: Oh. 

Doree: Because in the 18th century white colonizers and naturalists and explorers considered hair free skin, she writes to be this strange obsession of indigenous peoples. 

Kate: Oh wow. 

Doree: So Europeans set themselves apart by not removing hair, but hair removal was done in ancient times. People say as far back as the Stone Age, cavemen were removing hair for hygienic purposes to not get lice and stuff 

Kate: On. They were making hairless balls. 

Doree: They were making hairless balls. 

Kate: They were focused solely on their balls. That makes sense. Lice is, Lice must have been chronic 

Doree: In ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, the Roman Empire. There's like evidence that people use seashells, bees, wax. 

Kate: Wow. 

Doree: All kinds of ways to remove hair because they saw it as a way to keep their body clean. And then in the Middle East, they would use threads on their faces, 

Kate: Which is still done to this day. 

Doree: So there's been a long history of people trying to figure out how to remove hair. But as Rebecca writes, the normalization of smooth skin in dominant US culture is not even a century old. She wrote her book in 2016, so it's now about a century old. But she traces the real sort of shift in thinking about hairlessness to Darwin. 

Kate: Wow. 

Doree: And his 1871 book, dissent of Man, which then presented things in very racialized terms. And so hairiness was considered closer to apes. And so to be the more "evolved" human, you wanted to remove your hair, and that if you were hairy, it was linked to sexual inversion. A woman was manly if she had a lot of hair, even lunacy, criminal violence, all of that was linked to hairiness. So Kate, there's a lot more about the, this historical background of the late 19th and early 20th centuries about the origins of Hairlessness that I don't think we have time to go deep in on. 

Kate: Thats Fair. We can do more. 

Doree: Yes. But again, if you want to learn more about this, I highly suggest checking out Rebecca's book. And then we're going to take a short break and then we're going to kind of get into the history of depilatories. Yes. Alright. We'll be right back. Okay. So homemade depilatories were a thing. 

Kate: Homemade? Homemade. 

Doree: Okay. Yes. They were the kind of things that were passed down in families in communities, and they, So there was one formula that you boiled a lime solution, silver paint and aromatic oil together, and you would apply it to the hairy skin. A lot of this is not 

Kate: Yeah, you don't want to be putting this on your body probably 

Doree: Yeah, exactly. Or eggshells vinegar and cat poop. 

Kate: Oh that's, awful. 

Doree: Yeah. So there's a lot of stuff like this. And although the removal of hair beneath the neck was something that really took off in the 1920s, removing hair from especially women's faces was something that they see evidence of in the 16th century. That was something that people were doing for a while. And they kind of work in the same way these depilatories that Nair does, they were meant to chemically soften or dissolve the hair so that you could then just scrape it away. And then this was also really interesting. The development of depilatories also coincided with the need to figure out a way to easily remove hair from animals in slaughterhouses. 

Kate: Oh no. Oh no. This took a turn. 

Doree: So there were people saying that the same chemicals you could use for ladies to take the hair off your upper lip could also be used for tanners who were preparing hides. So 

Kate: Goodness. 

Doree: And then we start to get into our friends in the patent medicine world as we see. And so over and over again, over and over again, people are developing these things. And the people who are good at marketing become the ones who are successful. Then we get into some real wild stuff, especially in the early 20th century. This is when we have the development of electrolysis, but we also have the development of x-rays to remove hair. 

Kate: No. 

Doree: Yes. There was one company that basically sounded almost franchised. I don't think they used that word, but it was like you could become a salon that used their x-ray machine and women would go and get x-rays to have hair removed. 

Kate: Oh my God 

Doree: Which like, not super safe. 

Kate: No, 

Doree: At all. And there was no real oversight of this either. But this was the period when it was really becoming I guess, popular for women to explore all these different ways of removing their hair. You start seeing the advertisements in magazines. There's like the magazines themselves were promoting hairlessness hair, like hairless armpits, hairless faces, hairless necks as what you needed to be beautiful as a woman. So you really see how popular culture also encourages all this kind of stuff 

Kate: And then flash forward and suddenly waxing our pubic hair into oblivion. 

Doree: So it's in this context that we have the arrival of Nair, 

Kate: I mean of why not at this point. It's like, of course it's almost expected. 

Doree: So I think that when we see Nair sort of situated in this context, it wasn't really the emergence of Nair coincided with finally the x-ray machine hair removal finally being sort of driven underground. There were still x-ray salons that were illegal, that people would go to 

Kate: X-ray salons. That's so wild. 

Doree: Yeah. And also just as a fun fact, did you know that pubic hair removal did not really become a thing until the introduction of the bikini in 1946? 

Kate: That makes sense. 

Doree: It makes sense. Totally. Yeah. And another thing that I'm not going to get into but is very interesting is she has a whole chapter on Brazilian bikini waxes. 

Kate: The worst decision I've ever made. 

Doree: The worst. So I just think it's really interesting to see how Nair has managed to stay in the public consciousness. And I think is also one of those brands that people do have a sort of skeptical relationship with but continues to sell. And I want to end with the way they're sort of rebranding themselves in a way, but still holding on to that original 1970s. 

Kate: No, no, no. Are we short shorting again? 

Doree: Were Short shorting in a different way. So I'm going to show you, oh, this ad. This is on YouTube. I don't know if this ever actually ran on tv, but this is on YouTube. 

Kate: Oh no, I already hate where this is going. I can see the text. 

Doree: Okay. Okay. Here we go. 

Kate: I hate this. 

Commercial: You better watch out. That Mean them on the moon. Smooth, strong, pure magic. Yeah. I wear short shorts and no lies. These guys are going places. Just watch me. Worship yourself and the world will follow. Nair. 

Kate: I would say this is what would be considered a plus size model. I hate everything about that. 

Doree: So we still have the short shorts, 

Kate: Right? They've been like, we're more inclusive about who we think wears short shorts. 

Doree: Yes. Beautiful plus size women. 

Kate: Yes. Who, who's, this is still not a body inclusive advertisement. Necessarily. 

Doree: Right, right. 

Kate: Also, it's also everyone is pretty able bodied. I mean, it's like everything, everything, everything. It's everything. I really hate the reframing of the girl power. Yeah. It's woman power. These thighs are Strong sticks I walk on and they're smooth. 

Doree: Yes. 

Kate: I hate it. I hate It so much. 

Doree: And their tagline, their new tagline is Worship yourself, the world will follow. 

Kate: What? 

Doree: And again, Rebecca has a really interesting analysis of the ways in which we participate in beauty culture, especially in America, is framed as individual choice. Which I think is something that you and I have talked about a lot 

Kate: And something I perscribe to. 

Doree: Yea and how it's really not 

Kate: Right. 

Doree: And I think this ad is really trying to lean into that of this. You're doing this for you. 

Kate: Worship yourself, take all that hair off your body. 

Doree: Yeah, yeah. 

Kate: What the fuck? 

Doree: Yeah. So, 

Kate: Oh my God. I feel like every week that goes by that we do another one of these product recall episodes. I just want to dig a hole and move in. Cause it's not just highlighting the relentless way in which we are marketed to and sold things and the kind of cultural relevance. It just keeps reiterating to me how I am just doing it all. I'm just doing it all with no real control over my own mind. And quite frankly, I'm not going to stop removing hair from my body. I mean, we've talked about this. I shaved my legs today. Oh, Doree. Am I hopeful or hopeless after this? I don't know, but this is fascinating. 

Doree: So we will link to all of this stuff. There's a lot more, I'll put more of these links in the notes that we don't have time to get to. But yeah, this was quite a deep dive for me. So thank you for coming on this journey with me. 

Kate: It was a pleasure. 

Doree: All right. Bye everyone. 

 
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