Mini-Ep 464: Is The Juice Worth The Squeeze?
Doree and Elise hear from listeners about supporting your friends who work in the government, how to deal with burnout, and how adding some executive function hacks is working out. Plus, the link to Doree’s barrel jeans!
Mentioned in this Episode
Lucinda Williams
Elsa Chang
Jade Chang
forever non-profit and public sector group on Signal
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Transcript
This episode transcript is AI generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums,
Doree Shafrir (00:21):
And this is a mini episode where we hear from you, we share your comments and your thoughts, and we answer your questions to the best of our ability. But please remember, we are not experts. We are podcast hosts, and we always encourage you to seek support first and foremost, from a medical and or mental health professional as needed.
Elise Hu (00:40):
One thing that is cool is among our listeners, there are a lot of medical and mental health professionals, so sometimes we get questions from y'all and then medical and mental health professionals will weigh in with the answer. So that's what makes the Forever35 community and these mini apps so great. And it's always surprising what people weigh in on. We had last week about the organization expert.
Doree Shafrir (01:06):
Yeah. Well, and I remember one time there was a question about how to clean a tutu, and we had a tutu cleaning expert.
Elise Hu (01:15):
Yes. You spray it with vodka.
Doree Shafrir (01:18):
There's just always some random esoteric knowledge that our listeners have, so we appreciate you, we appreciate your expertise in the face of our non expertise.
Elise Hu (01:31):
I feel like my brain is so fried lately too, because I've been hosting a lot of podcasts at the same time, but also just kind of going hard with the evening activities. And I hit my wall today, Dorie, I hit my wall.
Doree Shafrir (01:42):
Oh, wow. That's impressive because your wall is quite high, your bar for your wall. You know what I mean? Mine is so low that it's on the ground. I'm like a little tired. I'm going to stay home tonight.
Elise Hu (01:59):
We had this magical New York style night. I always call these New York style nights because in New York it's so dense and the places are so close that it almost feels like it's more likely that you would run into people that and then go on to the next place with people that, and it's less likely to happen in Los Angeles because it's just so spread out. And then those of us that are in certain neighborhoods are pretty married and connected to our neighborhoods and try not to leave them too
Doree Shafrir (02:27):
Much. There's not as much spontaneity here,
Elise Hu (02:30):
But every once in a while, there's one of those kinds of magical New York nights here in la and we had one on Tuesday the night of our Forever35 guest, recent guest, the author Jade Chang's book Launch. Her book came out, it would be last Tuesday now, and I couldn't make it to the actual event, which was at a Barnes and Noble because I had tickets to see Lucinda Williams at the Troubadour, this iconic music venue where everything sounds good inside the Troubadour. So I had tickets to go see her. It was a two night performance. She had two shows, and there was one on Monday, one on Tuesday. And my friend Alex had tickets for both nights. And so he took me on Tuesday and as I was dipping out of the Lucinda Williams show to get to Jade's book launch after party at around 10 30 or 11, as I was winding around the crowd at the Troubadour before Lucinda Williams encore and getting out the front door, I get a text from a friend who I hadn't seen in two or three years, and he goes, are you at the Lucinda Williams Show?
(03:36)
I think I just saw you across the venue.
Doree Shafrir (03:38):
Oh my God. And
Elise Hu (03:39):
Lo and behold, yeah, it was my friend Peter and his wife Katie. They have a five month old, so they haven't even really been out of the house
Doree Shafrir (03:46):
Wow.
Elise Hu (03:47):
In five months. And they just happened to be at that show. And I said, yeah, it was me. And in fact, I'm going to an after party. And he was like, man, LA loves after parties. And I go, but not for this show. I'm going to an after party for a book lunch. And he said, where is it? I'm like, it's nine minutes away. So I pulled my car around and I picked up my friend Alex, who was staying for the last song, and then we peel out and go to the after party and he's like, what is this going to be like? And I was like, well, by 11, I'm sure it's going to be eight or nine people. We walk in, there's 65 to 70 people at this venue at this bar. Wow. And it's totally still lit. Elsa Chang was in the front lot. So we ran into my good friend Elsa, who we didn't know the other was going to be there. And so we ran into two random friends and one night in Los Angeles of all places. And then I said, Peter, come on down. And then Peter and his wife, who don't know Jade, they were like, okay. And they actually came from the show to the after party.
Doree Shafrir (04:51):
Oh my God.
Elise Hu (04:53):
And so we all got to hang out, and Peter and Katie are big NPR fans, so they were really excited to get to hang out with Elsa Chang, who hosts All Things Considered. And then Alex is always game. But I got to say, when we got into the car, I don't hang out with Alex every night. It's just every once in a while, maybe once a quarter, and we got in a car and he's like, we always have these fun nights out together when we go out, but I can see how it would be very exhausting to be your partner and have to do it every night.
Doree Shafrir (05:20):
He said that to you,
Elise Hu (05:21):
And I was like, yeah, that's why you're out. And Rob, yeah, Rob's like, Rob's a very extroverted guy, a real Energizer bunny himself. But it's been a lot of social things lately. And today, while I was staring at my computer typing up yet another grant application, my brain went foggy. I need to just take a nap. I usually don't sleep during the day. I, I think I work in intervals and this interval is coming to a rest period.
Doree Shafrir (05:55):
Okay. You go hard for a while and then you really need to kind of hibernate and then you go hard again.
Elise Hu (06:04):
Exactly. Yeah. That's how I work. I work in intervals. I've been saying this for like 20 years. Oh my God, that's so funny. I'm coming to the end of one of my intervals. Yeah.
Doree Shafrir (06:12):
I think that when I lived in New York and I didn't have a kid and I worked in media, I went out almost every night. It was unusual for me to not go out. And I also drank a lot. And that was a big culture shift for me moving to LA and not drinking as much and not going out as much. And also just being in a different phase of life. And now I'm in a very different phase of life and I've sort of lost the will, like the gas. Yeah. If it's not for someone that I'm actually close with. I made a real effort to go to your birthday dinner because I was like, I want to show. Yeah, I'm show up for I'm,
Elise Hu (06:57):
I did. That was such
Doree Shafrir (06:57):
A nice night. It was so nice. Yeah, it was lovely. But if you had been a second degree friend, I don't think I would've driven across town to go to a birthday. You know what I mean? I'm just like, I don't know. My social battery is low these days and I just feel like I'm just showing up for the people that I'm close with, which sometimes means I don't go out very much. Oh. And tennis, I leave the house for tennis.
Elise Hu (07:26):
I think that is, I think that's taking care of yourself. I mean, I am self-aware enough to know when I'm at the end of one of my intervals too. And so now I'm just going to, we're going to do a fundraiser tomorrow night with you, and then I'm just going to kind of chill for a bit.
Doree Shafrir (07:41):
One thing that I will say about the thing tomorrow night, because I'm so glad you're coming, it's Ballots Over Broadway, which is this fundraiser I've been involved with for the past few years. And it's so much fun, but it also doesn't require that much of you because it's just watching. It's not actually a lot of socializing. So you're kind of just sitting there taking it all in. You're not really having to have that many conversations, which is another reason why I like it. I mean, I used to have a party every year called Laka Fest. It was like a Hanukkah party.
Doree Shafrir (08:17):
And
Doree Shafrir (08:17):
I mean, some of them were iconic parties. They were so much fun. But I realized one of the things that I liked about them is that I spent at least half the party in the kitchen making lots. You
Elise Hu (08:32):
Were busy, you were
Doree Shafrir (08:33):
Otherwise busy occupied. Exactly, exactly. And people could come and chat with me if they wanted to, but I did not have to be out in the living room or wherever it was doing too much engaging. And this did not dawn on me until much later. I was like, oh yeah,
Elise Hu (08:50):
That was the stuff. That was the magic for you.
Doree Shafrir (08:51):
That was the stuff. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I'm really glad you're coming tomorrow and excited. It's going to be really fun. It's a great night for a great cause. Well, Elise, before we take a break, I do just want to play one voicemail that we got because it's very timely. I hope that by the time this airs, this will be resolved, but I'm not confident. Oh, and I also just want to note, this was emailed to us as a voice memo, which is my preferred method of receiving voicemails. So thank you listener. Here we go.
Listener Voicemail (09:28):
Hi, Doree and Elise, this is Erica calling from Atlanta from it is day one of the government shutdown, and as a furloughed CDC employee, I have so many feelings today, but one that comes to mind that I've been meaning to call in about for a while is my gratitude for the forever nonprofit and public sector group on Signal that got started soon after the 2024 election, or maybe the inauguration, I can't remember which. I have a ton of friends who work in public health here in Atlanta, so I certainly have a network in which to vent. But there's something so helpful about this group of women all over the country in a variety of fields who are all as fearful and mad and sad as I am about the future of our careers and our nation. And it's just been a really beautiful source of community and support.
(10:30)
And just a reminder to my fellow Forever35 listeners to check in on the government employees in your life. We are not okay right now. CD CERs in particular are really tired and traumatized and demoralized, especially with the compounding effects of the pandemic. And I'm hearing those feelings from friends who are federal employees all over the government. We took an oath to uphold the constitution and it's becoming harder and harder to live out my values and uphold that oath with what I'm being asked to withstand and do. So here's hoping this shutdown doesn't last long and the ramifications aren't too ugly. Thanks for everything you both do and the joy you bring to my life every week. Love y'all. Bye.
Elise Hu (11:30):
What a powerful, powerful voice message you have federal workers out there. Know that you are on our hearts and minds and give yourselves a lot of grace. We know you are public servants and are really the backbone of this country in so many ways and across so many sectors. And it's awful what has been happening. And like you all, we've been wondering when will the pendulum swing back and will it swing back in our lifetimes towards an ethic of dignity for all and care for the elderly and the very young and science backed public health standards and trying to cure cancer and all the things that we stood for once. So we're thinking about you. I'm so glad that you have found each other. I think that's a really important reminder that you're not alone. It feels bleak, but you aren't the only one who is resisting and trying to do some good from where you are with what you have. So that's really important. Just it feels so often like we're by ourselves and every time I kind of speak up about something that I'm struggling with, all these voices also kind of echo it and they're like, oh yeah, I was there too. Or I was feeling that uncertainty too. And so it is really important that you stay in communication with your communities about what's going on and what you're fearing and what you're feeling. Thank you for reaching out to us and thank you for always listening to us too.
Doree Shafrir (13:01):
I think, like you said, it's such a good reminder about the power of community and having people in your orbit who understand what you're going through. Well, like I said, I hope this is resolved by the time this airs, but I'm not optimistic unfortunately. And we are thinking of you. Before we do take a break, I just want to remind everyone that you can call or text us at (781) 591-0390. You can email us at Forever35pod@gmail.com. You can also email us a voice memo like this listener did. Do you hear how crisp and clear it was? Sounded so good. It sounded so good. You can visit our website Forever35pod.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram at Forever35 Podcast. Our newsletter is at Forever35pod.com/newsletter. And our favorite products are at shopmy.us/forever35.
(14:05)
And I also just want to put in a quick plug for our Patreon. Not only do we have a ton of bonus content on there, we have our casual chats, we have our monthly pop culture recommendations episode, which came out a few days ago. We have ad-free episodes at the $10 level and above, but also it pledges your support to the show. Not to sound all like NPR about this, but it does help keep the show going. So if you want more Forever35 and you want to see the show, keep going. Please support us on Patreon and you can do that at patreon.com/forever35. And after the break, we have some responses to the listener who, I think she called in about feeling burnout from her advertising job, or maybe she texted, I don't remember. But yeah, we got some good responses about this. Okay, great. We'll be right back. Alright, we are back. First, we have a voicemail that is not related to the burnout stuff, but it is related to job stuff, so I wanted to just play it.
Listener Voicemail (15:17):
Hey Doree and Elise, this message is really just for Dory. Dory. I wanted to say thank you so much for being so open and vulnerable about the job search situation. And I think a lot of people are actually in your boat in the media and journalism industry, specifically audio. I know I worked somewhere that just had a bunch of layoff. Anyway, I was wondering if you could share whether you've thought about teaching as a route and offering classes or other ways of monetizing all of the deep knowledge that you already have of podcasting, of writing your substack experience. And I guess this is a question for Elise Elise, could you talk a little bit about starting a production company and why you did that and how that works financially? And also Dorie, I was curious if you were thinking about doing something like that and creating an LLC and I guess I'm just interested in entrepreneurship and how that works in the auto media industry. Anyway, thank you again. Bye.
Doree Shafrir (16:31):
Part of what I find challenging about the entrepreneurship stuff is the marketing of yourself. I find difficult. If someone was like here and you want to do a course, great, I will do all the promotion for it and I'll do all the marketing for it and I'll get you customers and all that stuff. I would be like, amazing. I'll do the content. But it's the other stuff that I find really hard and doesn't come naturally to me and just is hard. And I think that's what has often held me back from doing a lot of this stuff that's just sort of like the hustle of it. Yeah, exactly. But it's definitely something that has crossed my mind, but I think I also don't know exactly what I would teach a course on. So that has also been, I don't know, I also overthink everything. So that might be holding me back. Elise, do you want to talk about having a production company?
Elise Hu (17:34):
Yes. I started a production company at the beginning of 2020 with my friend Rachel. And so crucially, I don't think I could be a solopreneur. I have this production company where we do B2B podcasts. We made podcasts for WeTransfer, for Microsoft, for GitHub, so big clients. And then we've made pilot episodes for individuals who just wanted to see what it would be like to make their own podcast. And we've done so kind of small batch things and big corporate things. And the reason why it has worked for the last five years is because it's a partnership. Because in businesses you have to have the minder and the finder and the grinder, and I am kind of the finder. I'll do sales for the production company and show up at the initial meetings and do the kickoffs, but I'm not doing the minding and the grinding of the business, like the daily work of slinging the tape and listening to every episode cut and liaising with the client on a weekly
Doree Shafrir (18:31):
Basis.
Elise Hu (18:32):
All of that is done by either staff or my partner. And so it's been an incredible journey. I finally understand budgets, business budgets or just budgets, period. I never really had to think it through that much. I just kind of worked for institutions and they would hold back your taxes. And now I understand taxes and business structure and balancing a budget and all sorts of accounting things. The learning curve for me was really sharp, but I've learned so much. So there is so much value I think to having done it. I don't know that I'm going to keep doing it. So full disclosure, in a lot of ways the question about entrepreneurship is the juice worth the squeeze? Which is something we always say in Texas like that juice, the juice ain't worth the squeeze. And so when we first started, we brought an anchor client over from one of Rachel's previous employers, and this is what happens when a lot of law firms or whatever will hang out their own shingle. They start their own firm, they have to bring clients over so that they have a stable of business. And so we had a big client come with us that helped get us off the ground. And now I think both of us, just very candidly, both of us are sort of like, what's the next chapter of our lives?
Doree Shafrir (19:51):
So
Elise Hu (19:51):
I don't know that we're going to stay together forever, but the experience has been really nourishing and we haven't fired each other. So we've learned a lot in just relating to one another too and just what the partnership can look and feel like.
Doree Shafrir (20:06):
I love that. Thank you so much for the question. And yeah, someone else texted Dorie, a great way to break into private college admissions work, which is extremely lucrative, is to offer private counseling for essay writing, maybe offer help to friends slash neighbors slash youth serving organization and go from there. Essay coaching is extremely common. It's funny because I did some college essay tutoring after I graduated from college.
Elise Hu (20:38):
Oh wow. Full circle.
Doree Shafrir (20:39):
Yeah. It's kind of like, am I just taking these huge steps backwards in my career? I don't think it's
Elise Hu (20:46):
Linear. I don't think our careers are linear. I think our careers kind of zigzag and so everything old can be new again. But also this is an area that is really lucrative. I mean, you remember the Operation Varsity blues scandal?
Doree Shafrir (21:00):
I sure do.
Elise Hu (21:01):
Parents pay so much to help get their kids a leg up when they apply for college.
Doree Shafrir (21:06):
So what I've been doing is thinking about semi-legal ways to help rich kids get into the college of their choice. Really coming up with some plans.
Elise Hu (21:17):
There was already a federal sting. They've moved on, they don't care about this now. Yeah, exactly.
Doree Shafrir (21:22):
My time is now. Okay, moving on to the responses about burnout. We got a text that said, I'm a designer and a mom who's been working in consulting slash the digital ad space for the past decade plus. And I almost never work outside of nine to five, five hours. I'd estimate it's less than 1% of the time. I've worked at four different consulting firms during this time. I'm great at my job during work hours, so no one has ever complained to me about this. Just wanted to mention that such a thing exists. Love that.
Elise Hu (21:53):
Yes.
Doree Shafrir (21:54):
That's amazing. You sound like a boundary queen. So love this so much for you.
Elise Hu (22:03):
I wonder, Amanda, is it you? It sounds like my running buddy, Amanda.
Doree Shafrir (22:08):
Oh
Elise Hu (22:09):
Yeah.
Doree Shafrir (22:10):
She didn't sign the text. So
Elise Hu (22:12):
It's possible.
Doree Shafrir (22:15):
Then we got a voicemail about this as well.
Listener Voicemail (22:18):
Hey, Doree and Elise, this message is for the caller that called in about burnout at work. And she has, I think a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old child. And I'm trying to think how to say this succinctly. I think this isn't about burning out and needing to take a vacation or take a walk. I think this is a more existential issue that actually ties into children. And I mean this all in a positive way. And so I have a 3-year-old and a 6-year-old. I'm coming out of the fog a little more than the color. But before kids work was what defined me, the mission driven work I did the places that I traveled to, it's what filled my cup, and it's what I identified as, and it's what defined me as a person. And then once I had kids, work became less important. And I don't really care about it a lot.
(23:11)
And it's not to say that I don't meet all my deadlines and I'm not doing a good job. But you were able to give before kids a hundred percent probably to most things, a hundred percent to your job. You could probably give a hundred percent to your mental and physical health, maybe a hundred percent to your partner. But now that you have kids that are two and four, which are really hard ages, you got to bring those percentages down. Unfortunately, you're going to be able to give 80% to your partner and 70% to work. And I just found that I have a lot healthier relationship with work when it's 10 for me to sign off at four, I sign off, your boss is cool with you signing off, your colleagues are cool with you signing off. You need to make it okay for you to sign off.
(23:53)
And I know there's that phrase, quiet, quitting, and I wish it had a better, it doesn't sound like what it is. What it means is just like putting your priorities in different places, more or less and having more of a balance in life. But quiet, quit. Do your job, do it well, turn it off and pour yourself a cocktail and focus on those babies and snuggles and dinners and kind of take that a lot. Give yourself permission to not give a hundred percent to work. Give yourself permission to give 80% and do just as well. And you'll find that I'm sure it sounds like you're a high achieving person, you'll find that people respect your boundaries. You'll find that people might not notice or not care, and you'll probably need to still meet all your deadlines. So I would just encourage a reframing of the narrative, a reframing of what's important. I define myself by a lot more fulfilling ways than just my job now, and it kind of makes me sad for women. I think this is why there are more male CEOs because they don't need to do this as much. They can still give a hundred percent to everything. We take on the less percentage. But that's where I am right now and I'm finding a lot of fulfillment in that and I'm less burnout. I hope this helps. You guys are great. Thanks
Elise Hu (25:08):
For weighing in.
Doree Shafrir (25:09):
Yeah, I love this perspective.
Elise Hu (25:10):
That is a very common perspective, I think post children. So I feel like if I think back to the caller and her question, her boss, I feel like the key part of her question was that her boss was great and generous. And so there is so much you can do with that strong relationship with the boss to try and negotiate better terms for yourself.
Doree Shafrir (25:34):
Yes. Such a good point. All right, well we are going to take another short break and when we come back we have another voicemail and a request for a link for some jeans.
Elise Hu (25:51):
Okay, jeans again.
Doree Shafrir (25:53):
Alright, jeans again. We'll be right back. Okay. Here is a voicemail about some of the organizational executive functioning stuff that I was talking about a week or two ago.
Doree Shafrir (26:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Doree Shafrir (26:13):
Oh, also I should note this was also an emailed voice memo. Appreciate the clarity.
Listener Voicemail (26:17):
Hi Elise and Doree. Doree, thank you for sharing with us the idea from the OT who gave a talk on executive functions at Henry's school. The idea of putting a bag tag on a kid's backpack with everything they need for the day is so great. We've been using it to help my daughter with her dance activities in the evening. She's a competitive dancer, just like Elise's daughter and dances between 10 and 15 hours a week and is dancing for hours every day and always needs to pack a bag with lots of different things. Ballet slippers, ballet tights, toe spacers, point shoes, running shoes, everything. So together we wrote on a tag, her dance schedule and everything that she needs to bring for each class organized by the day and the class. And it's been a big help for her. Now she's doing everything independently and isn't forgetting everything. So thank you so much.
Elise Hu (27:17):
You love it. Don't you love it when they don't forget things because then you're not having to run back to school with the extra bag of whatever or the water bottle or the lunch. I don't like to do that. I give the kids one mom will run to school with something with an item you forgot per school year. So Ava's already used hers up, she doesn't get anymore.
Doree Shafrir (27:39):
Oh wow. Okay.
Elise Hu (27:40):
She forgot her volleyball bag on a day that she had volleyball practice. And so I was like, well, I'm going to bring it, but next time
Doree Shafrir (27:48):
SOLI got some clear luggage tags and I have yet to actually put them on any bag. But I do want to do this on my tennis bag because I feel like there's all this random stuff, especially for matches that I often forget. And it would be really helpful to have that handy. And of course on Henry's, on Henry's bag as well. Okay. And we got this text that said, I feel like Dory has mentioned stretchy barrel leg jeans from Amazon twice now, but they aren't linked in the show notes inquiring, stretchy minds need the deets on these. Well, funnily enough, I'm wearing those jeans right now.
Elise Hu (28:33):
Are they so stretchy and comfy?
Doree Shafrir (28:36):
Oh, they're so stretchy and comfy. I will link to them. I bought them for 39 99. Now it says the list price is 45 99 and right now they're on sale for 35 98.
Elise Hu (28:49):
Oh, nice deal. Okay.
Doree Shafrir (28:51):
I don't know if that will be the case when this airs, but they should be around $40, let's say that. Now one thing that I will say slash caution is that I am wearing the black ones. They're sort of like this nice faded black. And I also got a pair of blue ones. Now they have multiple shades of blue and I cannot tell you which ones I got, but the blue ones are noticeably shorter than the black ones and they're the same size. So Elise, I feel like these would be too short for you.
Elise Hu (29:29):
I'm very lucky
Doree Shafrir (29:30):
Because you're a tall, short tall and they are pretty much just the right length for me. Maybe even a smidge short. So I would say if you are tall, these are not for you. But if you are five, let's say five, two to five six, these are probably great for you. I would also say they run a little small in the waist. They're sort of baggy and barely, but the waist is a little small. So I would size up if you don't have a small waist.
Elise Hu (30:05):
Okay.
Doree Shafrir (30:05):
That's my advice
Elise Hu (30:06):
And we'll definitely head
Doree Shafrir (30:08):
To those and we'll have the link in the show notes. Yes, the link will be there. Alright, Elise, great to see you and talk to you as always listeners, thanks so much for your calls, texts, emails, et cetera, and we will talk to you soon. Okay. Talk to you next time. Bye.