Mini-Ep 365: Don't F*ck With Your Eyebrows
Kate and Doree help a listener determine if a co-worker is really flirting, give an update on Doree’s backpack shopping, and get advice on not messing with your eyebrows.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello, and Welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree: Anne. I am Doree Shafrir,
Kate: And we are not experts.
Doree: We're not, but we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums,
Kate: And this is a mini episode where we hear from you, we share your comments and your thoughts, and we answer your questions to the best of our ability
Doree: Indeed. But please do remember, we are podcast hosts. We're not experts, and we do always encourage you to seek support first and foremost from a medical and or mental health professional as needed.
Kate: If you would like to reach us, our voicemail number is (781) 591-0390, and our email is Forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Doree: And you can visit our website Forever35podcast.com. For links to everything you mentioned on the show, follow us on Instagram at Forever35podcast. Join the Forever35 Facebook group at facebook.com/group/Forever35podcast. We have a newsletter, Forever35podcast.com/newsletter, and you can shop our favorite products shopmy.us/forever35.
Kate: Woo woo. You got it out. Now we are jumping right in because we got, I dunno about you Doree, but this is personally one of my favorite kind of questions to be asked, not just here on the podcast, but truly by anybody. Its a question that basically comes down to, does this person have a crush on me?
Doree: Oh, I know.
Kate: I love these questions. Okay, let me just read the email and then we can dig in. Sound good?
Doree: Okay, sounds great.
Kate: Okay. Hey, Kat and Dor, longtime listener, first time writer to the pod. I am in a bit of a bind and was wondering if you or any listeners out there might have some advice for me. I'm 25 years old and just last year got out of a five year relationship. It ended amicably and after working on myself for the better part of a year, I decided 2023 will be the year to get back in the game and start dating again. Here's the problem. I have a guy at work that I've been attracted to for a while and I think it's developed into a crush on my part. He's kind funny and just an overall good person. He's not married or in a relationship currently that I know of. We work in different departments, so we don't have much reason to interact. The issue is I'm in HR, but quite low on the totem pole, and he is the manager of his department. I feel like there's tension in the air whenever we interact, and I've caught him staring at me during meetings on more than one occasion. We have a lot of bits and inside jokes that we do when we cross paths, but I can't tell if this is light flirting or just him trying to be friendly. He also sends me emails that are completely not related to work. He and I have several email chains together, sometimes overlapping, and they're all friendly enough, so it's not to be weird, but also probably not the most appropriate thing to do at work. On your work email, is this flirting or am I being crazy? Am I insane for even thinking of dating a coworker? Any help helper, guidance is appreciated. Well wishes from the Pacific Northwest. Is there anything as exhilarating and also frankly, as potentially disastrous as a workplace romance.
Doree: Very few things, very few things. Kate,
Kate: I knew you might have an opinion on this as a person who wrote about workplace romances in her memoir. Thanks for Waiting. And wrote about them very astutely and humorously. I might add,
Doree: I dont have a great track record with workplace romance. I'm just going to put that out there.
Kate: I've only had one.
Doree: In terms of the aftermath and actually the during math as well.
Kate: Well, during math, I feel like if you are going to do this and do it well, you have to set some boundaries, not necessarily with the person. I mean, yes, with the person, but also with the work environment as a whole, right?
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Work is not a place for the romance to sizzle and it's very hard.
Doree: Yeah. So, okay, so a couple things stuck out to me about your email listener. One is that you are in HR.
Kate: I know this part was a flag,
Doree: Which I don't love for you in terms of getting into a relationship with someone at work. If you decide you get to the point where you decide to go down this road, I think you need to have a conversation with your manager about this. And it cannot be a secret workplace relationship, which I know is often how a lot of workplace relationships start. But because of your position, I would advise full transparency from the get go. Or you could potentially open yourself and him up to who knows what kinds of issues. You're not his direct report, so that makes things a little easier. But he is a manager and so with you being in HR, I just think that really does as Kate say, as Kate said, muddy the waters. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, yes, this is flirting. This person is totally flirting with you.
Kate: Oh my god, yes. So has a crush on you.
Doree: That is not a question.
Kate: Yes.
Doree: But hard to say whether this person actually wants it to evolve into something more because there are people who just enjoy having flirtatious relationships with coworkers. That is a real thing.
Kate: Yea...
Doree: So we don't know. I mean, I think that if you really do decide that you want to pursue this, then you should ask this person to hang out and then you will have, you'll more clarity on this. But I truly cannot emphasize enough to you how toxic it can be to have a secret work relationship. Just don't even think about going down that road because the allure of the secrecy kind of takes over and it will just get complicated.
Kate: Yeah, I agree, Doree. I think ultimately you want any relationship that you have in your life to be healthy and productive and fulfilling. And if you want to pursue something with this person, you should, I think be like Doree said, transparent, communicative upfront about, because the other thing that happens one, I think plenty of people meet and partner up at work mean my brother and his wife met at work. I think it's totally normal and can happen, and you can have great romantic relationships with people from work, but also you do have to consider what happens if it doesn't end well. And then you're still staring, sitting at each in meetings with each other and all those sorts of things. So I do think Doree's advice is really good,
Doree: Or what happens if this manager has an HR issue or someone complains to HR about this manager. Just kind of gaming out all the possibilities here. So yeah, I think it's great to think about kind of best case scenario, but it's also worth thinking about worst case scenario because there have been plenty of situations where workplace romances have gone south, and it's not just great, however, I do like the fact that you don't work in the same department because then presumably you wouldn't have to see them every day or really interact with them at all. But again, the HR issue, I, I'm coming back to the HR issue because it, I just feel like that is, that has the potential to lead to unforeseen complications. Let's say someone complained to HR about this person and whatever the result of that complaint was, it ended. Let's say it ends negatively for this guy. Is he then going to turn around and say, well, I had a relationship with someone in HR and it ended badly and that's why they ruled against me. Does that open yourself up to any potential legal action down the road? I'm sorry to be so clear eyed about this, but my sister was an employment lawyer for many years. Between that and my own not great experiences, I just feel like It's tricky. It's very tricky. That's all.
Kate: This is kind of a tangent and it's just something that popped into my head. And so I'm not even sure I'm going to articulate my thoughts correctly, but as someone who was sexually harassed in an corporate environment by a colleague, I just also just want to tenderly note that if somebody else is in a situation where there is flirting occurring, that is, this is not listener's situation, but I did just also want to note, there are lines that get very blurry with stuff with flirting and these kind of overly friendly workplace relationships. And so I just wanted to empower anybody who is in a situation where it doesn't feel consensual or mutual, the flirting to trust what they're feeling and consider what their options might be in terms of protecting themselves. That's all I realize That's disparate thought from what this listener asked, but it's just coming. It's just, again, maybe past trauma reemerging, but just thinking about my harasser and how a lot of what he did would have fallen under the excuse of flirting. And again, this is not what this listener is describing. This is just me reliving my past experience and wanting to make sure we're just kind of noting the many gray areas that can occur in work environments like this.
Doree: Thank you, Kate. That is a really good reminder. Alright, well, Kate, we got a text from someone who wrote Doree. I remember a couple months ago you were backpack shopping, any updates? I'm looking at the open story commuter backpack at Target and trying not to go down a rabbit hole researching backpacks. Well, the unsatisfying update is that I have not bought a new backpack. I've come close to buying a new backpack. I've researched new backpacks. I've looked very closely at a lot of backpacks,
Kate: You've sent me links to some backpacks,
Doree: I've sent links, but I have not actually bought a backpack. So.
Kate: Now on the flip side, have you shopped your own own backpack closet? Have you kind of stuck with something that you have that maybe isn't perfect, but it's working for right now?
Doree: Yeah, I've been using the Fjallraven backpack that I have that I don't love for a few reasons, but it's like, fine. When we went away to San Diego a couple weeks ago, I, that's the backpack that I brought. But yeah, it's not, I'm not in love with it. Not in love with it. Kate,
Kate: You hear that feel, Fjallraven, she's not in love.
Doree: But here's the problem. I worry that it's now becoming this thing where there is actually no backpack that will I, you know what I mean? That will actually satisfy me. So what does that say? What does that mean?
Kate: Well, that's not a statement about you. I think it's that feeling that, I mean, I think this is the consumerist dilemma, right? We're never going to be fully, how rare is it that we have a product or an item in our lives that we're like, this is it. I don't think we ever really have that. And it's honestly to keep us shopping.
Doree: Yeah. Ooh, that's interesting. So you're saying what you are saying, Kate, what I'm hearing is that there's a conspiracy afoot to make products that are just shy of perfect.
Kate: I mean, look, I'm not like a fringe conspiracy theorist here, but I would argue
Doree: Sure
Kate: That the goal of capitalism is to keep us giving people our money. So there's always going to be something. I mean, why do you think Apple keeps changing the fucking chords on all their products and then you can't use the same chords? I mean, there is a chord conspiracy happening also, Doree
Doree: That I agree with that I agree with. One of the first things we learned and my microeconomics class freshman year was planned obsolescence. So,
Kate: ooh,
Doree: This is a real thing.
Kate: Faking supply and demand, essentially.
Doree: No, the way that iPhones come out with new models every two to three years.
Kate: Got it, got it.
Doree: So your old model that you only got two years ago is now obsolete because there's a new one. So that's planned obsolescence.
Kate: Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. I never took microeconomics.
Doree: And it is a cornerstone of capitalism.
Kate: Yeah. So I wonder if the perfect backpack truly exists, is it possible to meet your needs? Or are you being manipulated by the system?
Doree: Wow, Kate, I don't know. I'm going to have to think about this.
Kate: This could also just be as simple as like, Hey, what are some good backpacks? Oh, I like this back. Why am I taking it to an intense level? I don't know. But here we are.
Doree: You're taking it, you're it somewhere. And that's okay.
Kate: All right, Doree, we should take a break.
Doree: Okay, let's do that.
All right, we are back and we have an email. I had to pause the pod listening to episode 247 about reclaiming your body. When Kate talked about participating in diet culture, even when you don't realize it, I have a girl's trip coming up with friends I haven't seen since before the pandemic in our group text, some people were sharing anxiety about being in bathing suits. This text hit me in a strange way and I responded expressing the same feelings. Another friend thankfully responded with some body positive messaging, and I felt anguish that I didn't have those words myself. How do you show up in a group that is all struggling with reprogramming internalized diet culture? I'm now torn between excitement for the trip and also anxiety. I haven't felt in a while about showing up and needing to look a certain way because everyone else is doing it too.
Kate: Can you communicate that anxiety to your friends? Do you feel safe enough that it's a safe enough space to do that? I think this is totally normal to be experiencing. I had a really hard time a few years ago going to a friend's wedding and I had gained weight and feeling extremely self-conscious, seeing my closest friends and feeling, and even knowing that they fully support me no matter who, how in whatever way I show up. I felt I was almost like too afraid to go, if that makes sense. I wasn't going to not go, but it was really causing me a lot of anxiety. So I see you and I think this is the thing we have to grapple with of letting these cultural demons, how do we not let them win? How do we exist? And in the space where they're always going to be there, those voices are never going to probably ever go away. So I think either communicating your fears and anxieties, but also communicating why it's important to you to be with these friends in this space and why you're going to go is valid. Journaling, talking to a therapist, talking to a trusted friend or person in your life, perhaps one of the people going with this group. I think those are all maybe good outlets to explore.
Doree: I think those are all good suggestions. I also think, and again, per what Kate said about feeling safe, but this could be a really amazing opportunity for you, for your group to have a group conversation about this, kind of a consciousness raising no holds barr discussion. I think people are probably carrying a lot of internalized shit that they don't even realize that they have. And maybe it would be therapeutic for everyone to just talk. I don't know how open people will be to this, but never know.
Kate: I love that. Doree, that's a really great suggestion.
Doree: Thanks.
Kate: This stuff is, well, this stuff is really hard and it's interwoven in with friendships too and history together. Years of knowing each other, seeing each other in different moments of lives and our relationships with our bodies and food and exercise and all these things. I think you just show up openly and vulnerably, but also protects your and nourish yourself too.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Ugh. All right. Shall we read this text?
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Hi, Kate and Doree. I have a Forever35 urgent request. First, I want to acknowledge that the below question doesn't account for the fact that I'm fairly privileged. I have health insurance and a good job. I also want to note that I've tried to make my question as not ableist as possible, but I'm still learning language and nuance. So please forgive me if I use incorrect or offensive wording. Anyway, so I received shoulder surgery on my right arm and dominant side at the end of last year. After the first week recovering and medicating the pain away. I'm able to go back to work, but my mobility is extremely low. I can use my right fingers and wrist to type on a computer, AKA, my job, but I can't even put on a bra or put my hair up on my own. I'm very lucky that I have a partner who's there to take on absolutely everything that's needed, which is basically cooking and cleaning anything around the house. And most of the parenting, since I can't even carry my toddler to his bed after some bedtime snuggles in our chair. Anyway, my actual urgent request is for self-care. I was barely able to put on mascara this morning much less to anything else for my mental emotional health. I know that my husband is taking on almost all of our family's physical labor, and so I don't want to put even more on him, but the recovery process for me will be long. So I don't want to just stop doing everything altogether. Things like taking a shower, he helps me with. But are there other things I can do with essentially one arm and it's not my dominant one that will mean taking care of myself. I honestly have no ideas here, but I know post-op recovery is half having the mental strength to do it. So what can I do for my mental health when I'm very limited with my arms?
Doree: First of all, I'm sorry to hear this. I mean, I'm glad you got the surgery cause it sounds like it was something that you needed. But yeah, it really sucks to be limited like this. So I get it. If you can hold a Kindle with one hand, I don't know, Kate, you had a hand injury, you were also very limited. What did you do?
Kate: Yeah, so you may recall if you've been listening to this podcast broke my hand pretty badly in 2021 and I had two subsequent surgeries and about a year of physical therapy. And my hand is still not 'back to what it was' and it probably never will be but I have regained full mobility, which was the goal. So that feels really great. I think that our bodies are incredible and you will adapt and there are amazing folks on social media and people sent me links to people and I apologize for not really remember not having this information handy, but I couldn't figure out how to do my hair, put my hair up in a scrunchy. And there are so influencers and folks online who are showing how to do that with one folks, with one arm, let's say, who have videos on how to do this. You can completely live a full life and you can adapt in whatever ways that are needed, listener. I think that being said, it doesn't mean that it's not very frustrating. You've used to using your dominant hand and now it's not available to you. That's incredibly, incredibly frustrating and discouraging. And I broke my non-dominant hand and I was still incredibly, felt like, I felt like I couldn't do much and it was really hard. So I think you have to just kind of mentally reframe, know that you are beginning the process of healing, and that most likely you will regain your mobility in a way that feels familiar and that you also have one, the support system and also this a amazing body that's capable of doing lots of other stuff or figuring it out. And it takes time and lots of frustrating moments. And I als I also think you don't need to go out and do everything right now. Just if you can just know that this is your time of healing and switching things up. maybe, and your mental healthcare is going to look different than what it looked like before the surgery. Maybe it's going for a walk. Maybe it's practicing something with your left hand for a few minutes just to play around with it. It's giving yourself a lot of grace, having a sense of humor and knowing that it sounds like this is not a permanent change to your body. I also, I couldn't put a bra on. I understand how frustrating that is. It is wild. It, it's wildly frustrating because you go from having the, it's not even the ability, it's just the muscle memory of doing something to having that stopped and that is confusing. Your brain is like what the fuck? So it's a rewiring that is taking place, but it does get easier. And I bought a lot of drawstring pants and I bought a spray deodorant that I could use because I couldn't, deodorant was really hard for me to use. For some reason I broke my hand and to put on. So I don't know if you might not put on mascara or you're just going to figure out how you do it with your left hand and it'll get better over time. But also you might find new self-care things that are more comfortable for you to do right now.
Doree: I was just thinking back to how I broke my wrist in high school. I think I've talked about this on the podcast before.
Kate: Oh, the worst.
Doree: But I did break my dominant hand wrist and I'm just trying to remember. I mean, it was like pre-internet, pre phones, smartphone. What did I do? What did I do? I mean, I had homework that I could sort of do because I couldn't, I wrote shakily with my other hand, but I guess I could read. But what did I do? This is something. This is like
Kate: you figured it out and
Doree: I figured it out. Figured out. I figured it out. I mean it was a shitty time though. Yeah, I will.
Kate: Yeah. It's extremely discouraging.
Doree: Alright, well Kate, should we take another short break?
Kate: Yeah, let's do it
Doree: Alright. We are back and we have a voicemail.
Voicemail: Hey, Kate and Doree. I am calling in with a little cautionary story for my fellow skincare enthusiast. I had sort of cystic, maybe just an ingrown hair thing going on my eyebrow and I fucked with it a little bit. I like washed my hands first. I thought it was, I woke the next and my eyebrow was kind of red. It was a weekend and I was like well, I'll see by Monday. And when I woke Sunday, my husband was like, Oh your eye looks really puffy. I was like, yeah, I'll check on it tomorrow. So on Monday I made a doctor's appointment. They couldn't get me in until later in the week. And by the end of the day, a day when I had to do a bunch of job, I was on a committee to hire someone at my work. So I do all these Zoom interviews with my face looking crazy. I folded and said, all right, fine, just drop me off at urgent care. So I went to urgent care and at this point my eye looked like it had a super, it was super swollen and it was like I was like a, had gotten a big black eye and I went to urgent care and the doctor was instantly like, okay, well you have pre orbital cellulitis and you need antibiotics and we need to give you a vision exam. Then he made me an appointment at the hospital eye doctor for the next day and it was a whole thing. And I'm really lucky that my vision was fine, my eye was fine, and it seems like it's responded to oral antibiotics. The next step would've been an IV. But I'm telling you this story cause I'm a totally, generally very fortunate to be very healthy person in my mid thirties who has never had anything weird like this happen before and all I did was fuck with my eye brow a little bit. So please everyone pay attention to your face and also as the doctor at the urgent care set, oh, don't ever fuck with your eyebrows. So I threw my tweezers away. I just wanted to share public announcement. Don't fuck with your eyebrows. Ok, that's it. Happy 5 year anniversary.
Kate: Ooh, let's just all marinate on that advice. Don't fuck with your eyebrows.
Doree: Oh wow. Okay. Okay.
Kate: Ouch.
Doree: Ouch.
Kate: Words of wisdom. Words of wisdom for all of us.
Doree: Oh wow.
Kate: Yeah, I know. I heard that and I was like, whoa.
Doree: Yeah, that is a real cautionary tale.
Kate: It is. That's a doozy for sure. Wells Doree.
Doree: Yes, Kate.
Kate: On that note, let's depart. Take of our eyebrows and have a great day.
Doree: Let's do that. Ok. Bye everyone.