Episode 390: Red Lipstick Is a Neutral with Rachel Goodwin
Rachel Goodwin is back with more great product recs and makeup wisdom from years of experience. Doree and Elise ask her listener questions about everything from the best blush for freckles and a tinted moisturizer to finding the right red lip, and how to transition a cat eye on an aging eye. They also discuss what Rachel is seeing in beauty trends and where she hopes makeup trends are headed.
Mentioned in this Episode
Mirage
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode is AI generated.
Doree Shafrir (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise Hu (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu and we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree Shafrir (00:21):
Welcome to the show. Today we have one of our favorite recurring guests, Rachel Goodwin, makeup artists to the stars, back on the show to answer your makeup questions and to talk just generally about makeup. And it's always such a delight to get to talk to Rachel. I really love our conversations with her.
Elise Hu (00:42):
She's going to have a big year too, which she will get into and we will let her get into herself. But it means that she hasn't been as busy this award season. And she's sort of just observing from afar some of the bigger trends, which is kind of exciting. But she will also answer your questions about cat eye. And she apparently always gets questions about cat eye and how to perfect the cat eye and products and things. But before we get to Rach, Dora, I just want to check in with you and see, are there certain things that you're loving that you have worked into your makeup routine or your skincare routine?
Doree Shafrir (01:20):
Yes. And I should say before I recommend these that these were things that were sent to me. So these were gifted to me. I just want to be clear about that.
Rachel Goodwin (01:32):
Full disclosure. Yep.
Doree Shafrir (01:33):
Full disclosure. But The Outset, which is Scarlet Johansen's skincare beauty company, I actually really like their products. They sent me their Lip Oasis lip. It's a gloss, but it's also moisturizing. It's also like a balm. And it comes in four different shades that are just really pretty and subtle, but give you just enough pop of color.
Rachel Goodwin (02:05):
Love
Doree Shafrir (02:06):
It. I really like the Sunkiss shade and then also the Mirage shade. And then it also comes in clear if you just want your own lip color. So I've been using those. I really like them. And then another item that was sent to me that I'm also really liking, and I'm kind of picky about this particular product is the Tower 28 Make Waves Mascara.
Elise Hu (02:37):
Oh, mascara. Because I ride hard for the Tower 28 cream blush. I think that and then the merit flush balm that everybody loves are both fantastic just to put a little color on your cheeks. But you're talking about Tower 28 mascara. Interesting.
Doree Shafrir (02:55):
Yeah. So I think their mascara is relatively new. I mean, they're a relatively new company anyway, like within the last few years, but I think mascara was not one of the products that they launched with. And I think it's a great ... I actually think it's a really great mascara and it doesn't clump. It lengthens. I would say it also gives you volume. It comes in black, brown, and then you can also get a mini. It comes in a mini black and it's $20, which is in between drugstore and department store.
Elise Hu (03:35):
Okay. How
Doree Shafrir (03:36):
About you? Are you using any new makeup items?
Elise Hu (03:39):
I haven't worked anything new in, but I talked a little bit about this just as an aside in a recent episode that this is winter. It's a very drying period and not just for our skin, also for our eyes. And we had a
Rachel Goodwin (03:57):
Guest
Elise Hu (03:57):
That we were interviewing earlier who said she always carries eyedrops with her. And so the eyedrops that I really love for redness is called Lumify. People who do early morning television swear by this. And so I think we created a link on our Shopify for Lumify if you're not already hip to the Lumify cult or you're not already a member of the Lumify cult. I really recommend it for this time of year. And then also the other thing that I do in the winter that's different, I also use a body oil and I really like the Oribe all over oil for that in gold lust. And so I picked that up from my Korean Pilates teacher in Korea. I used to take private Pilates because it was in my building and she just was luminous and had this amazing skin. And I was always like, "What's the deal, man?" Especially in the winter, I'm crackling off.
(04:51)
I look leathery. And she was like, "I know this is weird because I know Americans get strange about putting oil on their face, but because they think it's going to be greasy or something, but face oils and body oils." And so she introduced me to a bunch of oils. And now I really like to make sure when I step out of the shower in addition to lotion or instead of lotion, I'll use oils. So that's kind of like my winter thing. Yeah. Yeah. And Rachel's going to get into a bunch of things that she's super into as well. I think some of y'all asked about the difference between BB cream and CC cream. So we'll get into all of that, which will be fun.
Doree Shafrir (05:34):
Yeah, it's a great conversation. All right. Well, I know Rachel needs no introduction, but I will just read her bio in case she is new to any of our listeners. Rachel Goodwin is the makeup artist behind some of the most iconic celebrity looks of our time. Her clients include Emma Stone, Priyanka Chopra, Aquafina, Julia Roberts, Bree Larson, Michelle Dockery. I mean, the list just goes on and on. Her work has been on the covers of Vogue, Vanity Fair, W Glamour, GQL, Harper's Bizarre. She is an icon herself, in my humble opinion. And she comes on roughly quarterly to our show to answer your questions about makeup. So we're so excited to have her back on the show. Before we get to Rachel, just a reminder that our website is forever35podcast.com. We have links there to everything. We and Rachel mentioned, you can also follow us on Instagram at Forever35 podcast.
(06:33)
Our Patreon is at patreon.com/Forever35. We do little extra interviews with our guests that we call the Forever35 questionnaire that are super fun. We do a weekly casual chat now on video. So if you have been missing the sight of our faces, you can check that out on our Patreon. We do a monthly pop culture recommendations episode plus a chat in our Patreon app. And it's just ... Oh, we do ad free episodes. I mean, there's just a lot going on. That's at patreon.com/Forever35. We also put all of our favorite products. So we'll put the things I mentioned today, plus anything Rachel mentions in our ShopMy. So you can just directly shop those at shopmy.us/Forever35. Our voicemail number and text number is 781-591-0390, and you can email us at feber35podcast@gmail.com. And here is Rachel. Well, Rachel, good win. Welcome back to Forever35. It's so nice to see you.
Rachel Goodwin (07:39):
Hi, ladies. Happy 2026. Happy 2026.
Elise Hu (07:43):
You have been very busy. It's always good to have you back on as our recurring makeup expert.
Rachel Goodwin (07:51):
Yes. It's great to see. It's joy and a pleasure. I love it.
Doree Shafrir (07:55):
Elise, before you jumped on, Rachel and I were talking about the phenomenon of your tween and teenage children stealing your gadgets and chargers and headphones.
Elise Hu (08:11):
Well, now we all aggressively write on the plug bases and the chords what our initials because now they feel like I'm stealing theirs, but I'm probably just taking back my own things. But then I got caught ... Yeah. I got caught with some charger cable that had the initial eye on it. And so Isabel, my daughter was like, "Do you not see the initial eye? That is mine." I'm like, "No, it started out as
Rachel Goodwin (08:40):
Mine." Oh my God, this is what I was saying. We have the exact same scenario in our house and it has become so contentious. And I honestly am like, I'm over you all. And so today when I went to go find these headphones, which I keep in a certain drawer because they're the only ones that I can use for our podcasting because they go in my computer, but they have a very specific thing and I keep them in one drawer and I know they're there, but it's been a while since our last one. So I'm like, "Oh, I felt cocky. They're there. I don't have to worry about it. " And I go in, they're gone. So I'm rummaging through their room so mad. I'm like, "What is happening?" The core thing. I relate
Elise Hu (09:24):
To that so hard.
Rachel Goodwin (09:25):
Yes. Yeah. So here we are. Thank God I found them in the one in their messy cord drawer, which is just a whole other story. But yeah, they were there. And of course, no one ever knows where anything is. No one's ever touched anything. No one's ever heard about it. It's the first time they've ever seen any. Yeah, that's probably our biggest familial contention point right now is chords and chargers, which is sad actually. That's so
Doree Shafrir (09:56):
Funny.
Rachel Goodwin (09:57):
That's so funny.
Elise Hu (09:58):
Not. Cool.
Rachel Goodwin (09:59):
Cool.
Doree Shafrir (10:00):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise Hu (10:11):
Since we've last chatted, you have been really busy. You're back doing a bunch of awards season makeup. So do you want to catch us up on you real quick before we get into listener questions?
Rachel Goodwin (10:24):
I'm actually taking a little bit of a backseat this season for the first time in a long time, since the pandemic, obviously. But before that, I think I have been part of every award season since I started my career back 20 years ago or whatever. But I have a deadline. I have a book deadline. And so I'm kind of acting as if I'm in law school right now studying for the bar because I kind of don't have the ability to be in 10 places at once and do what I need to do to finish my book. So I've actually, I'm sort of going to be participating, but in a lesser way this year than I've ever been doing before. But I still have been watching, seeing everything my peers are doing, and I'm definitely stepping in and doing things that work for me that are low lift.
(11:10)
So I have lots of opinions and lots of things to say, but they're not all about particularly my personal experience. This Golden Globes, I did do Mel Robbins, who's one of my favorite, favorite humans on the planet. Oh, podcaster. Okay. Yeah. So she was nominated for a Golden Globe for her podcast, which is a first time podcasts have been a part of the Golden Globe. Yes, I know, because then PR got a
Elise Hu (11:34):
Nomination too, which was really cool
Rachel Goodwin (11:36):
That there was
Elise Hu (11:36):
This new category.
Rachel Goodwin (11:38):
Yeah. So that's been really fun working with Mel. I've been working with her quite a bit and just kind of getting her sort of acclimated to the world of being face forward in this world. It's been really, really fun getting her sorted and getting her feeling great about how to do her own makeup, how to do things for herself, for her podcast and for big nights like The Globes and for ... There was a whole bunch of Spotify things leading up. And it was such a fun thing to be a part of because Mel is having such a moment. She's done so much for so many people in the last few years just helping them get through some tumultuous times. It's been nice.
Elise Hu (12:10):
Yeah, that's awesome. It's
Doree Shafrir (12:12):
So funny because we were just talking with the author, Maureen Gu, who is also someone who had never really done the awards show circuit before, but her husband directed K-pop demon hunters. So she's been going to all of these big award shows and we were just talking to her. We were talking to her mostly about clothes, not so much hair and makeup stuff, but she was just talking about how she hired a stylist and just that shift is really interesting when you suddenly have to start
Rachel Goodwin (12:47):
Thinking about
Doree Shafrir (12:47):
Presenting yourself in a totally different way.
Rachel Goodwin (12:50):
Well, it's nerve wracking. And it's really fun for me as an artist to really help someone go from a place where ... I'm used to being in environments where people are, this is just their normal. This is what they do. Everyone's almost like a well-oiled machine. It's like they know how to go to these events. It's more of a ... Oh God, how would I put this? What I normally am working inside is sort of a well-oiled machine of glamor. We have certain roles that we play. We bring our A game obviously every time and everyone's collaborative and blah, blah, blah, but there's a different energy when you work with someone who's experiencing these things for the first time. It's like, imagine you got ready for your wedding about, I don't know, 200 times. Every weekend.
Elise Hu (13:36):
Right.
Rachel Goodwin (13:37):
Yeah. You might not think that it's that fun anymore. It might become something else for you. Whereas when someone is doing that for the first time and it's their wedding, you're really in it with them and you're really feeling all the feelings for them and you're really holding space for them in a way that's very different. And that was what I had with Mel for the Golden Golds because the buildup, she had, I think, four or five events. We kind of got to really hone what worked for her, what didn't. And then by the time the Golden Globes came, I mean, she just got to feel amazing. And it was just such a joy. It was so freeing to see ... It was nice for my job to use my talent to elevate another woman who's just showing up for the first time in that way, but in such a big way.
(14:18)
That's when I get really excited about what I do. And I feel like what I do has real merit and has value because it does change the narrative for another person.
Doree Shafrir (14:29):
I love that.
Elise Hu (14:30):
Lovely. I'm sure your longtime clients probably miss you being on the circuit as much though. I mean, I imagine-
Rachel Goodwin (14:37):
Yeah. No, I mean, it's been nice and everyone's been so understanding. I think there's a couple ... I think I told you I'm working on a brand right now and I'm doing my book and it's been nerve-wracking because I'm like, oh, I don't know how to be this person. This is a whole new person I have to be right now. But I'm actually excited. So I'm in the messy middle of figuring out what my next phase looks like. But I'm also just trusting what I trusted in the beginning of my career with this career was that I really felt pulled and drawn to this creative process that I wanted to be a part of and I made that happen. And now I'm feeling drawn to these other things. So I'm trusting that they're guiding me where I need to be at this very moment. I have a lot of stuff I'm excited about sharing in the next year and I cannot wait to get to talk about all of it, but all of it's kind of in that messy middle part right now.
(15:24)
So it's just-
Elise Hu (15:25):
Well, you just text us and let us know when you're ready to talk about things
Rachel Goodwin (15:28):
Because we
Elise Hu (15:28):
Want you to share with the Forever35 community that you've been so generous with as soon as you can
Rachel Goodwin (15:34):
Share. Well, girl, you will know immediately. Believe me, I cannot wait because it's going to be a lot of fun.
Elise Hu (15:39):
Okay. Fantastic. All right.
Rachel Goodwin (15:41):
Well,
Elise Hu (15:41):
Are you ready for the latest batch of questions from our listeners?
Rachel Goodwin (15:45):
Yes. Yes, I so am. Yeah, let's do it.
Elise Hu (15:48):
All right. First question, what is a good tinted moisturizer that provides light mat coverage to just even out?
Rachel Goodwin (15:56):
My favorite one is, I love Lisa Eldridge. Her tinted moisturizer is so beautiful. I love it. It has sunscreen. It has a beautiful hydration, but it's not shiny. I would say that's why I'm number one. There's one that just came out from a brand, was the founder of Our Glass, who just started a new line called Outside In. And it's really like this in a dropper kind of thing. It's this really sheer, beautiful kind of ... I don't know if it's matte so much. That's the only thing I would say. If you want more of a matte finish, that's a little bit tougher because most of the time tinted moisturizers tend to lean because they have the word moisturizer and then they tend to be more hydrating and they often don't have a matte finish because they're really there to function as a two-part situation.
(16:49)
They're there to hydrate the skin, plump the skin, give it protection, but also give you a little bit of coverage. That's a tall order to do in a matte consistency because it kind of is counterintuitive with what it's actually trying to do because it's trying to serve two purposes. I think that I don't really know of any matte ones particularly that I would definitely think of. There's a couple of things I would say that I love. It's more of a luxury product, but Eighth Day, which is a skincare by a doctor, by a dermatologist brand. It's a primer/sunscreen, and it has a little bit of almost like a diffuser. It gives the skin sort of a really lovely, even tone, but it doesn't necessarily give you a ton of coverage, but it's protecting your skin, it's hydrating your skin, it's acting on three levels, and then it gives you a soft even tone.
(17:47)
And if you really want to use concealer on top because there's something glaring, you can do that. But the eighth day primer/sunscreen is, I think it's a pretty fabulous product. I use it all the time and I usually don't use anything else unless I'm actually going to be on camera or I'm actually going somewhere where I need to bring it up a notch.
Doree Shafrir (18:08):
Another question. Someone has written, "I have and love tons of freckles. What blush is best for super freckled cheeks?"
Rachel Goodwin (18:18):
Ooh, I love freckles. I often put freckles on people who don't have freckles, and I'm a fan of freckles. I have them myself. And so I really do feel like transparency is key when it comes to giving yourself a flush, but you don't want to necessarily look like you have something covering. I hate that look when I see freckles. And then I see, I don't know, a layer of something and you almost see, they almost look dulled underneath. It's like, "Oh, that drives me crazy. I want to see the freckles. I want to bring them forward." Some of my favorite ones, Tower 28, I think those blushes are one of my- Love carpet. They're my top five. Yeah. Love that brand. And I think it's so easy. They have these little ones that are just like, you dab your finger, you use them on lips, you can use them on ... I use them all over.
(19:07)
So theirs are so fabulous. I mean, I'm trying to think of the exact ... I mean, again, I don't know her complexion exactly, so I can't say specific color, but I would say their range runs the gamut. So you can find something there like pink if you want more bronzie. They've got such great textures. And then when you put them on, just that it's a beautiful see-through transparent quality that I love. Armani, if you want to go more high end, the Armani and they're in little tubes and they're very beautiful. They're almost like a water-based transparent. It's like a watercolor. I think watercolor. That's how I think of when I think of freckles. I think of anything that kind of goes over a wash but doesn't have a high pigment load so that you're not hiding, you're not covering. You really are just giving almost a stain effect, but with slightly more hydration.
(19:56)
So yeah, those would probably be my top two that come to mind, but blushes are ... Oh, merit. If you want to go really easy and low-fi, the merit ... I don't use them as much for red carpet because they don't have the staying power of some of the other ones that are a bit more pigmented. But for my daily life and my purse, I often grab for those little merit, they look like little half circles and you can just do a quick little either impossible to mess up. They have a really lovely luminosity. They're not at all dense and pigment, so you can really just put them right over your freckles and they look fabulous.
Elise Hu (20:34):
Okay. When do I use CC cream versus BB cream versus foundation?
Rachel Goodwin (20:40):
Oh my Lord. Okay. I read your book, Elise, so I remember this whole BBCC cream thing. I don't even really 100% know the answer to this.
Elise Hu (20:51):
CC cream is the graduated next level BB cream, basically. They just keep adding more letters.
Rachel Goodwin (20:58):
Letters?
Elise Hu (20:59):
Because it went from BB to CC. There's also DD. It's like bra sizes or something, but they just
Rachel Goodwin (21:05):
Improve
Elise Hu (21:06):
The formulation with each one. But we should say there is a difference between BB and CC creams and foundation, right? And so how do you decide, Rachel, when to use a lighter BB cream versus foundation on your clients?
Rachel Goodwin (21:21):
Okay. So I guess BB and CC cream in general are more personal. I would say the first thing that comes to mind is that BB and CC cream are typically something I would use in my personal life and not on my clients. And the reason is a couple of things. There's a few things. Honestly, I don't usually use dual purpose products on my clients for red carpet moments because I'm very calculating and sort of very considered in how things are going to last and everything. And also, I'm not really there to do treatment or add any kind of things like that, unless I'm say in the sun with someone where I'm like, hi, it has to be about we're shooting an editorial on the beach and I'm like, sunscreen is obviously a big deal. I usually do professional grade products for big days like a red carpet day or editorial day.
(22:13)
But on myself, I love products that have multipurpose. I love products that have multiple benefits. I love things that like the more things that are inside a product, the more opportunities there are for reaction. And that's just a fact. It's not that it's bad or good. It's just on days where I'm like, I don't know if a client is allergic to something. I usually go for the least, the lowest factor of any reaction. So I'll go with things with no fragrance, no multiple, any active ingredients. BBC cream, baby GD and FF or whatever, probably have more active ingredients, I'm assuming, each round. So active ingredients tend to be nerve-wracking for me as a makeup artist. As a woman, I'm interested in them because I want to use them in my daily life maybe to kind of add or boost the effects of my skincare. Foundation is what I use on my job on everyone because I'm just more of a low risk.
(23:10)
I think it's more low risk and it's also like probably more professional grade so I know how it's going to behave under lighting over hours. I don't have that necessarily same confidence in the BB cream or the CC cream because it tends to slide and slip and move a lot
Elise Hu (23:26):
More. I mean, being a coverup is just one of its properties, right? BB cream was invented at first. It didn't even come out of Korea. It came out of Germany as a post surgical cream. So after somebody got a skin procedure, they put BB cream on as a coverup/sun protectant, a sunscreen/moisturizer/healing balm. So it was lots of different things at once.
Rachel Goodwin (23:51):
Yeah. And I think that's great for that and for daily life and for other things when we're not necessarily on camera, but for my clients, I'm usually not leaning that way. Yeah.
Elise Hu (24:02):
Though I do recall, and this kind of goes back to the freckles thing, I remember you used when Rachel did makeup on me, just everyday makeup, she used a Dr. Jart, BB or CC cream on me in order to make sure my freckles still were prominent or weren't covered up. So you could use it if you are freckled and have tons of freckles as our listener wrote and don't want to cover them up too much. I
Rachel Goodwin (24:27):
Don't like to see skin that looks completely altered or covered. And especially with the way the world is now, I mean, the way that we look at photographs so closely, the way that we look at HD video so closely under horrible lighting that you can't control and all this stuff, it's like I just tend to use products that I know are going to look ... Usually I go for really highly pigmented products that I use a very slight bit of for red carpet. But when I'm doing your makeup Elise, it's like I'm really trying to find things that you're going to be able to utilize and go to quickly that is going to actually be a benefit to you on your daily life. And most people don't find themselves, I mean, unless you're, I guess you could be an influencer or whatever, but then you have filters for that.
(25:10)
But the thing that's different about what makeup artists do and what an influencer gets to do is like, we don't get the security of knowing the lighting. We don't get the security of knowing how something is going to look in a particular photograph because we have no control once our client walks out the door.
Elise Hu (25:30):
Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree Shafrir (25:39):
All right. I've always wanted to wear red lipstick, but feel like I can never find the perfect shade at the drugstore, any good inclusive drugstore brand, Rex.
Rachel Goodwin (25:50):
Ooh, gosh. I mean, for me, red lipstick is neutral. I know that sounds bizarre, but I really do find it to be ... It's like a classic ... At this point, the red lip is almost like the LBD of makeup, in my opinion. It's like you got to ... Every single person can wear red lipstick. It's really more of a psychological thing as to whether or not you feel like you can wear it or give yourself permission to wear it because it does require a level of, I guess, I don't want to say vulnerability because it almost makes you feel tough, but it leads more toward armor than it does toward vulnerability. But I think that ultimately, red is an eye catching color and it's an attention getting color. So when you have it on, you tend to attract looks and it can come from anywhere.
(26:46)
It can come from not necessarily male attention, can come from other women. It can come from women. Our eyes are trained to pick up red because it has all kinds of symbolism behind it. It can mean an alarm, it can mean passion, it's an igniting color. And so if you're not ready for the attention that that brings, then it can feel almost like a bit intimidating to wear it. There's a red for everyone. And as far as drugstores go, Revlon always made some great reds. And if you can get it at Target or whatever, Revlon's reds are fabulous. L'Oreal makes incredible reds. They're French brand. If you like more orangey reds are definitely something that is a bit more poppy and retro. If you go more cool blue red, it goes a little bit deeper, but it can feel a little more serious. It's really the orangey reds feel a little less serious.
(27:41)
If you're kind of tiptoeing in, they're a little more fun and a little more ... They're bold, but they're definitely not so ... They don't have the sort of ... I don't know, there's this elevated untouchability about a blue red versus a warm red. So you can play around with the idea that maybe try to get a warm one and a cool one and see which one suits you and try to stick with matte tones with red because they do tend to travel and they can get really messy if you have a glossy red can be. Or if you are scared to go into a full mat and you just want to experiment with what it feels like, I would say get a sheer red and try that because sheer red is less of a commitment and it gives you the feeling of the red, but it kind of gives you that transparency that feels a lot less intimidating to look at.
(28:32)
And so I think there's a few ways, but I think drugstore, I was just in Target recently and just really having fun in there looking at all the brands because it had been a while since I'd seen all the different lines and stuff in there. And I don't know, Elf had so many. There was just a ton of great makeup in the drugstore. And I was kind of blown away at how many options there are. It used to feel like there were only so ... When I was coming up, when I was younger, it was like you had these expensive lines and then you had these drugstore lines. I feel like the drugstore lines now are just as good and viable and wearable and even maybe more so. People love ... I think it's the L'Oreal or the Maybelline, sorry, Maybelline has these stay-on ones that I have heard from a lot of women are no joke.
(29:19)
When they want something to stick, I can't remember the name of it now, but their stay-on formula, their 24-hour whatever and that stuff- Is it like lipstain?
Elise Hu (29:29):
Is it more
Rachel Goodwin (29:29):
Like a
Elise Hu (29:30):
Lip stain than a
Rachel Goodwin (29:30):
Lipstick? It's like a lip liquid and then it dries and it's supposedly from everyone I know, when they need something not to budge, that is their favorite one.
Elise Hu (29:39):
Okay. Good
Rachel Goodwin (29:41):
Tip. Yeah. Good
Elise Hu (29:42):
Tip. Okay. All right, let's jump into the eye category.
Rachel Goodwin (29:47):
Here
Elise Hu (29:48):
We go. Longtime liquid liner cat eye wearer here. It's my
Rachel Goodwin (29:52):
Signature.
Elise Hu (29:54):
"I want to start wearing something softer, but still cat eye adjacent as I age and my eyes start to wrinkle and crinkle A little more than they used to. Help.
Doree Shafrir (30:02):
Is this question from Taylor Swift? She still does the cat eye. Sorry, that didn't land. She does.
Elise Hu (30:10):
Oh no,
Rachel Goodwin (30:12):
I got it. Okay.
Doree Shafrir (30:15):
Thank you.
Rachel Goodwin (30:16):
I'm going to say something. I don't know if it's controversial or not because I don't know if it's like you're supposed to do it or if I ... Because I was literally thinking about this this morning. So I have felt this way because usually my two go- tos are a little bit of a messy eye or a tiny little cat eye. Those are my go- to things if I'm going out or whatever. And lately I have been using my liquid brow pen as an eyeliner because I like the transparency of it. Okay. Because it's giving me that same little thing, but it's not a hard line. And it gives it a completely different feel. It's soft and transparent and sort of a little bit less of a hard line. And so that has been my recent trick. I don't know if it's legal. I don't know if it's like, oh, they're going to say you're not supposed to put that near your eye.
(31:13)
I don't know. I'm assuming if it's for brows, it's safe for eyes, but there's legality here, I guess. But that's been my recent thing I've been experimenting with, and I've got to say, I was like, I think this is something. Someone needs to make a little one that's a little less opaque, and maybe that would be a really cool way to go.
Elise Hu (31:33):
Nice heck.
Rachel Goodwin (31:34):
Yeah.
Doree Shafrir (31:37):
Okay. The best eyelid primer for your hooded eye bibids.
Rachel Goodwin (31:43):
Hooded eye bibas. Oh, moira rose. Okay. I was like immediately. Thrive makes an incredible waterproof primer for your lids. That's fabulous. Especially if you get that little creasy thing where when you have folded lids and you get that, because it drives me crazy on clients, certain clients that have folded eyelids that I have had that kind of happening in the last ... Just I'll be like, "Oh, I'll see it. " And I'm like, "It transfers on and then there's nothing you can do. " I forget the name of it, but it's by Thrive. It's a waterproof eyelid primer. You can use it with any, whether it's eyeshadow, eyeliner. I find that works incredibly.
Elise Hu (32:26):
Okay.
Rachel Goodwin (32:27):
Yeah, that would probably be my top one.
Elise Hu (32:29):
Okay. Last eye question, and then we can broaden out before we let you go. I still can't perfect the cat eye. What's the secret?
Rachel Goodwin (32:38):
Oh gosh.
Elise Hu (32:40):
Hire
Rachel Goodwin (32:41):
Rachel, I guess. I know. I feel like I've gotten this question. I have answered this question probably more than any other question in my career at this point. And I wish I could tell you the trick that would just be the answer overall and no one would ever need to ask again. But I've tried every which way and so far I still get the question. So it's clearly something's not working. But I would say that after answering it a million ways and after thinking about it a million times, I would say it's really about being relaxed in your approach and not trying to do a long effect. So my favorite way to do it is sort of to make a small dot on the outside of the eye where I'm trying to get to. And then I go in small little increments. I don't ever try to do a sweep.
(33:29)
I don't ever try to do a long stroke. I just minimally press the color into my lash line. And once I get to the edge, so I'm going outward in these small increments and then I come back in from the dot and I fill in that space.
Elise Hu (33:47):
You connect the
Rachel Goodwin (33:48):
Dots. That's my way. I connect the dots. And it's really about just not ... I think we just keep seeing this idea in our head that we're supposed to be these artists where we just like ... And then we're like, wait, what just happened here? You're like, you're over here, you're over there. It's not even. And then you're with a Q-tip and then people lose faith. I get it. It's a really frustrating ... And like our eyebrows, they are sisters, not twins. And so faces are not always, they're not symmetrical. So it can trick you into thinking that you're going to get this perfect symmetrical line and you may not. You might have one that needs to come a little higher and one that needs to be out a little straighter on one side. So there is a bit of nuance there. It's not so scientific.
(34:37)
I think it's intuitive. And I think we have a hard time as women trusting that intuition. We want the instruction. We want to be told how to do it, but a lot of being great at it is trusting your intuition and knowing your own face and dynamic of your face well. And then the last thing, we've talked about this a lot here is that you should hopefully enjoy it because when we feel pressured and we feel put upon and we feel like we need to get something perfect, we often don't enjoy the process and then we never get good at it. And so I think just however you can bring a little bit of levity and joy to it would be really dewy wonders when it comes to getting it right over time.
Elise Hu (35:20):
Fantastic. Good tip. Good tip.
Doree Shafrir (35:22):
Okay. Last question. Where do you see beauty trends going this year?
Rachel Goodwin (35:29):
Gosh, I mean, I see-
Elise Hu (35:31):
You've been watching a lot now that you're not doing as much award season makeup. So you can probably see the way that trends are going, right?
Rachel Goodwin (35:37):
Yeah. I've been watching a lot and I've also been watching Just Makeup, the contest show on Korean makeup artist contest show, which I'm fully obsessed with. I think that what's going to continue to be is that people are getting, their skincare game is just so good. People are really getting these treatments that are just making the complexion so clear and so lifted and so nice that the campuses that we're seeing are phenomenal and better than ever. I mean, makeup artistry is really coming into a place of nuance, in my opinion. I think that I miss a little bit of the risk taking. I feel like there's two camps. There's risk takers and then there's Clean Girls and Clean Beauty. Those are the two camps that I'm seeing, and there's not a lot in between those things.
Elise Hu (36:32):
So it's either like
Rachel Goodwin (36:33):
No makeup
Elise Hu (36:33):
Makeup or Chapel Row.
Rachel Goodwin (36:36):
Yeah. That's what it feels like right now to me. Just from an outsider, for the first time stepping back a little bit, that's what I feel.
Elise Hu (36:44):
What would you like to see aspirationally? Where do you feel like
Rachel Goodwin (36:47):
They should go? I would like to see girls being more individualistic with their approach because I think that what I'm seeing is we have more variety and more talent available than ever before, more ability to express these pieces, and yet people are falling into templates. I think it's become really scary to take a risk of any kind
(37:16)
Because of the scrutiny, because of how hard it is to be on social media and get so much bad feedback about anything there that possibly could be mistaken as a risk that didn't go well, or a trend that didn't land or something like that. It just feels scary because ... And it is. Listen, we would be fools to think that it actually isn't because something like that can be damaging to a career or it can be damaging to a sensitive person who can't handle that kind of feedback. So I think it's a weird time because of that. And I think the people who are going to be those rule breakers and wild people are always going to be doing that. They just are like, "I'm doing my thing and you can say what you think and I'm fine with it, like pink or Chapel Row," or those kind of women who are like, "Nope, you're not going to tell me Billy Eilish, whoever would know.
(38:15)
" But then I feel like I would love the middle part to be a little safer for women because I do think right now trends move too fast. I think we've lost the whole idea of seasons for trends. I think we've lost the idea of even in fashion, to be honest, because it moves too quick. I think what we need to see is people cultivate their own sense of who they are beauty-wise, fashion-wise anyway, and then feel free to play around. I was watching an interview with Gwyneth not that long ago talking to Timothy Chalamet. They were having this conversation on vogue.com. And it was really funny because it's like, I'm Gen X, so I have a very unique sensibility that doesn't always ... Gen Z and Gen X have very different ways of approaching things, but he was asking her about some of her style choices in the '90s and she was talking about, they were showing pictures and she's like, "Yeah, I just bought that and went to the event." I wasn't thinking about any of that.
(39:19)
And I am so grateful that I had a life in which the privilege that I had to not worry about that stuff because yeah, we made choices and the choices didn't always work, but we had the freedom to actually figure out what we liked and to experiment until we found our thing and without the severeness of the scrutiny that people have now. So their safety has made people a little less risk, or it's made them more risk averse in some ways, but also more calculated. And I kind of miss the whimsy of just being able to try something for the sake of it.
Elise Hu (39:57):
Yeah, because it's made fashion and makeup more boring ultimately,
Rachel Goodwin (40:01):
Right?
(40:02)
Yeah. Because for me, I'm like, "It's just lipstick. It's just eyeshadow." But for some people, it's not, because it means that they'll have that following them for the next two decades. I don't know. For me, I just love ... The reason why I fell in love with makeup in the first place was this ability to use it as a tool of expression, self-expression, and a way of sort of trying on different personas and identities and finding out which one fits. And we all have multiple personas inside of us. We all have multiple ways of showing up in the world. Some days we feel really strong and some days we don't. So we need makeup to make us feel strong, or some days we need less makeup because we want ... I mean, I've been listening to Pamela Anderson talk about her journey with makeup. And I remember growing up and watching her, and she had so much makeup on, I mean, to the point where she was a character of her, in a sense.
(41:02)
As a woman, it felt almost alienating to look at her because she was this character that felt very male gaze. And now she's returning to herself and she's doing it in a way that's totally on her terms with literally zero makeup. Literally zero. And I find it really inspiring because it's really honest, right? There's an honesty there. And I think that's what I miss. There just feels like there's a serious ... Suddenly, it's gotten very serious and I don't totally think it's honest either. And I'm like, those are things that are not for me. I like levity and I like truth.
Elise Hu (41:39):
Yeah.
Rachel Goodwin (41:39):
Yeah.
Elise Hu (41:39):
Love
Rachel Goodwin (41:39):
It. So those are my two ... That's my two cents. Lovely. Do it what you will.
Elise Hu (41:45):
Good soapbox. Yes.
Doree Shafrir (41:47):
Yes.
Elise Hu (41:48):
Rachel Goodwin, it was such an awesome time to have you back on and especially because you're sort of on the cusp of so many big things later in 2026. So thank you. Thank you so much for being generous with your time during your sort of more heads down book writing period. And we'll be inviting you back on again in about three to four months or so.
Rachel Goodwin (42:11):
Yeah. I can't wait. Yeah. Keep those questions coming. I really love answering them. It's been so fun for me because it's like I forget sometimes that I know these things until I'm asked. Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much ladies. Have a beautiful day. Thank you everybody.
Doree Shafrir (42:31):
All right. Well, it is always a pleasure to have Rachel on the show.
Elise Hu (42:37):
Can't wait for her big announcements. We'll have her on. I know. We'll have her on again, like we mentioned. All right, Door, intention check-in time. Last week, your intention was to really start decluttering. We talked a little bit about this on the casual chat. How is all of that going?
Doree Shafrir (42:53):
Well, I did really start decluttering and it's going well. I've gotten rid of a lot of stuff. And something that I talked about a little bit more on the casual chat was about becoming okay with the idea of just throwing some things out, which for me is like a big mental hurdle. My instinct is to always sell or give it away and then getting to the point where you're like, "You know what? No one wants this. No one wants this old stained shirt." And just being okay with throwing stuff away was like a big
Elise Hu (43:32):
Kind of- I love the shirt is a concert shirt from the velvet underground because I sold that on Depop for like five bucks and apparently it was worth 50. Any old band? Shirts.
Doree Shafrir (43:42):
Yes. No, these are not ... I mean, and I gave away a huge bag of clothes. Clothes are probably actually not the best example because I do give those away a lot. I buy nothing. I just give away huge bags of clothes, but it's like a broken toy. No one wants to buy that. No one even wants that for free. So just becoming okay with certain things saying this is okay to just toss. And then this week, I think this week, I'm just going to kind of try to keep the momentum going.
Elise Hu (44:16):
Yeah, that's good. I'll reup this intention.
Doree Shafrir (44:19):
Yeah, I'm going to reup this intention. How about you? How's birthday week?
Elise Hu (44:23):
My intention last week, yeah, was just to celebrate life in all its abundance. And I feel like I am very contented and just super, super blessed. And I was actually thinking that ... I was really feeling a lot of gratitude, especially on my birthday this year because it overlapped with Chinese New Year, Lunar New Year. And yeah, we have our health right now, so that's kind of such a blessing, such a blessing. Yeah, totally. And then for the week ahead, we have been in this kind of rainy season or rainy few weeks, and I haven't really been outside very much. And so I would like to just put out, as my intention, just to spend more time outdoors and get my vitamin D and eat lunch outside and go on walks outside and just do more stuff outside, play with my kids outside. So sunshine is my intention.
Doree Shafrir (45:21):
Amazing. I love that. All right, everyone, thank you so much for listening. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir, Elise Hu and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partners Acast. Thanks again, everybody.
Rachel Goodwin (45:38):
Bye.