Episode 343: Room For Change with Olga Khazan
Doree and Elise speak with Olga Khazan, Atlantic writer and author of Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change about how much of your personality is fixed vs changeable, the underrated but life-changing value of niceness, and a mindset shift to deal with the tumultuous times we’re living in.
Photo Credit: Tim Coburn
Mentioned in this Episode
Traitors
Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change by Olga Khazan
How To Stay Politically Engaged Without Going Crazy with Leah Litman
Connect with Olga
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode is Ai generated.
Doree (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise (00:16):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums and other things.
Doree (00:21):
Oh yes. Other things too. How's it going, Elise?
Elise (00:25):
I got to tell you, this is sort of serum adjacent. There is that brand tower 28.
Doree (00:32):
28.
Elise (00:34):
They're coming out with blushes soon. And so my daughter Ava got hip to this because we have a shop my code for Tower 28 products because they want us to try it. And she learned about this and she was like, oh my gosh, there are blushes coming out. There is a way for us to, she was like, this is the first time I've known about something coming out before they've actually come out. Oh boy. She's so excited. She's so excited. Oh boy. Yes. This tower 28 is very exciting among the youth and so just wanted to shout out to our friends there for no particular reason. They didn't ask us to do this. Ava's just very excited and we are friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree (01:16):
I love that. I love that seemed
Elise (01:18):
Germane.
Doree (01:20):
Totally. What else is happening?
Elise (01:25):
It is the Monday following last week's Oscar Sunday, and I did a whole sort of behind the scenes, this is what happened, this is why these were the fun things about being at the Oscars. And these were the strange things about being at the Oscars for our casual chat last Friday.
Doree (01:46):
So
Elise (01:46):
Those of y'all who are members of our Patreon, you can dip into that exciting summation on our Patreon because we go into it. But the main takeaway about the mood was that, I don't know if it's because of world events or just the mood of Hollywood, but what was really strange about being under the tent up until the point that you got to the red carpet was just how quiet it was. It was like Oscar's church and folks who have been there before were, it was strangely not chaotic and not loud. And so I don't know if that's an indication of what's just going on. That's like the mood. But I mean the show was awesome. It was just like the vibes
Doree (02:36):
Felt the vibes were off. Kind of contain the vibe.
Elise (02:39):
Vibes were off contained. Yeah. Yeah. Just chill. Just chill. What about you? What are the headlines? What are the headlines in your world?
Doree (02:48):
The headlines? Let's see. The headlines are Matt and I have been watching season one of Traders.
Elise (02:58):
Oh, going back. That's right. So we're going back. If you all are just joining us is a huge fan of Traitors the show, the Reality Competition Show hosted by Alan Cumming in which former reality show stars from Big Brother and Survivor participate in a giant game of mafia and or werewolf depending on which one you played in a mansion
Doree (03:25):
In Scotland.
Elise (03:26):
In Scotland. Season three finale just aired last Thursday, but Dory and Matt are going way back. They're going into the archives.
Doree (03:34):
They are. So it's funny because I had watched the first few episodes of season one when they aired and I just, for whatever reason, I just couldn't get into it. I think I wasn't in the right frame of mind for it. Now that the world is falling apart, I'm like, great, give me traitors. I'm here for it. It is just funny because I do think that this happens to every single reality show ever made. First season, everyone is just sort of themselves.
(04:09):
And then if the show is successful and they get more famous, season two rolls around and they've gotten veneers and hair extensions and they just look much more glam. And in the first season, Alan Cumming the host, he's not like Schlubby, but he's not as camp as he is in season three. Season three is like he is camping it up and in season three he's, he's a little campy, but not that much. Really not that much. And there's some episodes where his hair looks combed, you know what I mean? And now in season three, it's like he's spending two hours in the hair and makeup chair before they start rolling. It's very funny to watch them side by side. Now
Elise (05:02):
It's not even just the aesthetics though. I feel like all these reality stars and the hosts end up elevating or doing elevated or exaggerated versions of their personalities too. A
Doree (05:14):
Thousand percent.
Elise (05:15):
So Alan Cumming was already so Alan Cumming, but now he's like at a 15.
Doree (05:20):
Oh yeah. Yes. Now he is really, really next level. It's a very funny, but we're enjoying it. And I think I've mentioned on another episode, the first season of Traders Us, they did half reality stars and half Normal people, and I think they were like, okay, we just need to do all reality stars. So it is kind of funny to be watching it now with this other season because in the versions in the other countries it started in the uk, they just do normal people. It's not reality stars.
Elise (05:57):
Oh, I would enjoy that too. I mean, I feel like it's the mix that doesn't really work.
Doree (06:02):
I think you're either
Elise (06:03):
Go with all reality stars or all Normies, but
Doree (06:06):
Not most of these people. The people on Big Brother, at least for the first million seasons were normals. They were just normal people who decided to be on a reality show. So same with Survivor. There's a lot of precedent for just normal people going on reality shows and then becoming famous. But anyway, it's just interesting. We got into this more on the Patreon pop culture episode. I'm going to stop talking about traders because I feel like it might be of interest to me and three other people, but
Elise (06:45):
Dory's been talking about traders a lot. So if you are into traders content, we not only have it on this episode of our regular feed, but it's also part of our pop culture March Pop Culture Bonanza, which is on our Patreon. So there's Oscar stuff on the casual chat. There's traders and other television, film, music and books commentary that's also on our Patreon. There's a lot going on over there. And there's a lot going on here too because we are now wrapped up with Friendship Month and we're getting back into guests that may not be tied to a particular theme. And thank you all for all of your Friendship Month support and your questions and your participation as well. It was really fruitful. We just put out a newsletter with some takeaways from Friendship Month that we are actually going to and have already implemented in our own lives. And so if you don't get the newsletter, check that out as well.
Doree (07:46):
And actually on Wednesday's mini app, we have some more feedback from listeners about Friendship Month, including some stuff from listeners who implemented some of the stuff they learned during Friendship month, which is pretty cool.
Elise (08:01):
Oh, I'm excited. Yeah. Yay.
Doree (08:03):
Yeah.
Elise (08:04):
Okay,
Doree (08:04):
Let me just remind everyone they can visit our website forever 35 podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are also on Instagram at Forever 35 podcast. We like to post some fun clips from the show with video on our Instagram, so you can go check those out. Our Patreon that we've been talking about is at patreon.com/forever 35. Our shop is at Shop my us slash forever five. We have our newsletter Forever five podcast com slash newsletter. And you can call or text us at eight one five nine one zero three nine zero and email us at Forever 35 podcast at gmail com. Do you want to introduce Olga?
Elise (08:43):
Yes. So today we are really excited to talk with Olga Khazan, who is a staff writer at The Atlantic. You have probably read her stories if you're not familiar with her specific. She's the author of me, but better the Science and Promise of Personality Change. She's also written for the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post and other publications, and she's been writing a fascinating substack on personality change. She sort of Guinea pig herself and played with dynamics of her own personality for the purposes of her reporting, and then eventually these findings all wound up in her book. So it's really fascinating. She talks us through all of that and we learned a
Doree (09:27):
Lot. We did. All right. Here is Olga. Olga, we are so thrilled to have you on Forever 35. Welcome to the show.
Olga Khazan (09:39):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Doree (09:41):
We always start out by asking our guests if they have a self-care practice that they would like to share. So is there anything that you do that you would consider self-care?
Olga Khazan (09:54):
Yes. So readers of the book will know that I have seasonal affective disorder. So February is not prime time for me, but I do hot yoga and for that hour a week, whatever it is, however often I can do it, it really feels like it's not winter, which is great.
Elise (10:13):
Do you have one of those lights?
Olga Khazan (10:15):
I do have a light. The light doesn't really work on me, but yeah, the lights are, I'm pro light. Okay.
Doree (10:22):
I lived in the Northeast for the first 35 years of my life and I also had diagnosed seasonal affective disorder, so I empathize. It's really not fun. Yeah, it's rough. Yeah.
Elise (10:38):
Well, Olga, we just introduced you with your formal bio, but instead of we want to go be on the bio, so talk to us about who you are and how you would describe yourself, because I think that's an important premise to get into talking about your book and the experiment that's central to it.
Olga Khazan (10:57):
Oh, okay. Good question. So I'm a writer. I'm a mom now. So I think I have to say mom because all professional moms are like mama. Yeah. So I'm that and wife, I can't forget that. And I've been a writer almost my entire professional life now. And yeah, I've always been interested in human behavior and sort of the way the mind works and the way people work. And so for this book, I really took that lens to myself and saw if I could change some patterns of behavior that were not working for me,
Elise (11:41):
What wasn't working for you. So give us kind of how you assessed yourself or how you found your personality traits to be in an official recognized assessment.
Olga Khazan (11:53):
So this started when I noticed the problems and then I took a test and it was like, oh yes, there are problems. So I noticed that every time something mildly stressful happened, I kind of had a tendency to blow it up into a much bigger deal than it was. So the book kind of starts with this day in Miami. If I just said all the stuff that happened that day, everyone would be like, so that's typical Tuesday, whatever. But I just really had a meltdown at the end of this day because my tolerance for stress and negative emotions was so low
(12:33):
And I just had such high levels of these negative feelings. And I also noticed that I just was kind of lonely. I didn't really socialize with anyone, not just because of covid, but just kind of a covid hangover for me of just not ever going out. And I just saw a number of areas in my life that could kind of use an upgrade, if that makes sense. And so I did take a real personality test designed by a scientist and it was like, yes, you are unusually neurotic, which is the part that correlates with the negative feelings. You are not very extroverted, which would explain why I never went out to socialize. And you're also a little bit disagreeable, which is the part where you're kind kind of prickly. And so I was like, huh, I should maybe change that stuff.
Doree (13:29):
One of the things that I think is interesting in what you did, and you touch on this in the book, is that introversion in and of itself is not bad. It's just how these things are making you feel and this idea that there might be a way to be happier. So I was wondering if you could expand on that a little bit. How did you sort of parse that out?
Olga Khazan (13:55):
Sure. So I think there's sort of a lay definition of introversion, which I think is actually fine. So I think I'm about to describe what I think the lay definition is, and I think if you fit this description, you're okay and you don't need to change. So it's people who are normal, outgoing, can talk to people, don't have social anxiety, don't feel unusually lonely are a part of their community, but they just feel more themselves when they have quiet time, when they are by themselves, when they're on their own, they just feel more replenished and they maybe need a little bit more of that than the average bear. I think that's totally legit and so do all the researchers that I talk to. My thing was a little bit more of what the scientific definition of introversion is, which is someone who really is not cheerful, literally they don't have good cheer positive emotions.
(14:59):
They don't make an effort to be around people. Quite often they would choose to be just by themselves, not just to recharge, but kind of all the time. And they also just are not very active. So part of extroversion is actually just getting out there. So even something like going to church you wouldn't think is a very extroverted activity, but that could be a form of extroversion or going to a knitting club where you're all sitting around quietly knitting that is still extroversion around other people and you're engaged in an activity. So those were the parts of extroversion that I really wanted to work on rather than just being a party animal, if that makes sense.
Doree (15:42):
So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Elise (15:54):
Just to back up a bit, extroversion is one of the five dynamics or personality traits that scientists measure us on. So can you talk us through those five and why our personalities are measured this way?
Olga Khazan (16:11):
Sure. Yeah. So there are five traits. They're called the big five and you can remember them with the acronym ocean. So O is for openness to experiences, which is sort of creativity and imagination. Sometimes political liberalism is also lumped in there. Then it's conscientiousness, which is sort of getting things done, being on time, answering all your emails, being really organized. Extroversion, which is sort of what I just described, being kind of outgoing and active agreeableness, which is being very warm and empathetic and just friendly and neuroticism for N, which is a bad thing. It's basically anxiety and depression. The flip side of neuroticism is called emotional stability, and that's the thing you do want.
Doree (17:09):
How much of this is predetermined by genetics? How doomed are we or blessed are we to inherit the personalities of our parents?
Olga Khazan (17:22):
So this is a part that I was really curious about as well, and the way it was explained to me by experts who study behavioral genetics is that you get about 40 to 60% of your personality through your genes, but that doesn't mean that you are sort of exactly like your parents 40 to 60% of the way. Because if you think about it, you inherit genes from your parents but of end up in combinations that are unique to you. So maybe you have a little bit of introversion from your mom, but it doesn't manifest in the exact same way that hers does. Or maybe you have a little bit of anxiety from your dad, but you're actually a lot less anxious than he is. It just is something that's a little bit there. So this is similar to how you do not look exactly either of your parents or act exactly either of them. Similarly, your personality is going to be pretty different from them even though you are genetically related and that other 40 to 60% of your personality is sort of just up to you and your life and what happens to you. It's sort of individually determined. So that is kind of promising, I think.
Elise (18:39):
Yeah, because it's sort of not fatalistic. It means that there is room for change, which leads to your book and the central experiment of it. So you set out to, for listeners who haven't heard about it yet, you set out to try and see how to tweak or maybe improve on some of the measures of the personality traits that you wanted to improve on, maybe increase your agreeableness or openness. Tell us how you went about it.
Olga Khazan (19:11):
Yeah, so there were three traits that I really wanted to work on personally, which was extroversion, neuroticism, and agreeableness. I actually scored really high on openness and conscientiousness, so I didn't personally do anything to improve those as much. That was mostly me interviewing other people about how they changed their own levels of those traits. But what I did is I basically broke it down trait by trait, and then I looked at the psychological literature, the studies that have been done at what actually helps people increase on each of those traits, and I created a little regimen for myself and I did activities that are meant to make you increase or change on those personality traits that you're working on. And it was different depending on which trait,
Elise (20:07):
What stands out to you among your Guinea pig.
Olga Khazan (20:12):
The thing that I think worked most quickly and the best, and I was like, whoa is extroversion, which is that, and this is kind of in line with how people say extroversion works, which is that once I just forced myself to leave the house, I basically signed up for all these activities. So I had a commitment device if I forced myself to go, I ended up having a good time and I realized that I craved that social interaction the next time wasn't actually this little hermit who liked to be in my house alone all the time. I found that once I started doing it, my brain was like, oh, this is good. We should keep doing this. But I would not have predicted that before. I didn't actually realize that's how that works because I had always thought if you're an introvert, then socializing, doing stuff with other people, it's draining. You have to recover from it, but isn't how I felt at all.
Doree (21:13):
You touch on this in one of the later chapters of your book, if not the last chapter, but sort of when to quit and this concept of acceptance and commitment therapy. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about that. When do you know that your personality has changed enough?
Olga Khazan (21:37):
Yeah, totally. So I started struggling with this toward the end of my project. I was doing all these activities and doing all these activities, and first of all, I was just really busy. I was running out of time to do more stuff between all my meditating and then sailing club and improv class and all the stuff I was doing, and I was sort like, how do you know when At the same time, a lot of it is very uncomfortable. An improv showcase for someone who is an introvert and is not a natural performer is very uncomfortable. And I was like, is this something where I need to push through the discomfort in order to get to the better side of the personality trait, or is this something where I'm just not really sure I should be doing it?
(22:26):
One activity like that that I ended up quitting is actually running my own meetup group, and this comes from acceptance and commitment therapy. I realized that it wasn't really in line with what that researcher calls your values. Basically that form of therapy is all about following your values, identifying them, and then kind of doing things that align with them. And so one of my values was to be more extroverted and part of extroversion is having fun and doing things you enjoy, but I was really not enjoying leading this meetup group. It felt a lot like work and not fun work, but fun brain game or something. It was just like, I have to organize, I have to make their reservation, I have to get there. Parking, oh my gosh, I have to think of questions. It was just this homework assignment every time, and I was like, I'm not enjoying this. This isn't bringing me closer to extroversion because after this I am, this was draining.
Elise (23:31):
And what did you ultimately find? Can we change our personalities? Did you change your personality? And in what ways do you feel like your project then led you to any sort of lasting change as the subtitle of book includes?
Olga Khazan (23:47):
Yes. Yeah, so I think we can change our personalities in particular. I really changed a lot on extroversion and I changed a fair amount on neuroticism, but my anxiety level was still pretty high at the end, and agreeableness, it went up a little bit as well. But one caveat that I have with all of these is that it requires kind of constant maintenance. You have to be doing the activities that you did to get yourself there on a kind of an ongoing basis. So if you have a meditation practice as I did, and when you stop meditating as I also did because I have a baby, the benefits of that might not last for months and months, even as you're no longer meditating, you kind of have to keep up these behaviors. I would say the one that lasted the longest for me was also extroversion, and the one that I took forward in time the most is probably extroversion in that now I feel like I'm approaching new motherhood in a completely different way than I would've before I did this project just because I saw the value of connecting with others, and I saw how much it actually pays, pays, even if each individual little play date or coffee or whatever you're doing isn't like, whoa, that was amazing.
(25:16):
That was mind blowing. But it sounds like you're
Elise (25:18):
Building community in an area of your life where maybe you would've previously felt a little bit shy or uncomfortable doing, is that right?
Olga Khazan (25:27):
Yeah, yeah. I'm much more, I would say forward about just texting someone I just met, like, Hey, let me know if you want to do a play date. Let me know if you want to get a beer, let me know if you want to, whatever we have time to do, and that just wasn't something I would do before.
Elise (25:44):
This leads to a quick follow up, which is we just concluded by the time this episode airs, we will have just concluded our month on friendship. So I'm curious what your experience has taught you about friendship and the nature of friendship, especially in adulthood when we have so many competing priorities.
Olga Khazan (26:02):
So I did for one of the chapters, it was actually, it was kind of like a little bit of extroversion, a little bit of agreeableness. I did a join Bumble b fff, the friend making
Elise (26:12):
App,
Olga Khazan (26:14):
And I did make a friend. I made a friend on Bumble. I am the success story of we're actual legit friends now. The book is done, we're still friends. It just taught me the value of that, of meeting new people in adulthood and being consistent about getting together and also the value of just niceness in friendships. So this friend I made on Bumble is very nice, and in the past had sort of I think subconsciously avoided nice people because I didn't think that they were good friend material for me. Then I just kind of realized that really you do in your late thirties, especially after you have kids, you really need people who are pro-social in your life. You don't necessarily need people who know the hottest clubs or whatever. You need people who are going to show up with the casserole or whatever, which this person did.
Doree (27:17):
How do you think your approach to motherhood would've been different if you hadn't done this?
Olga Khazan (27:26):
So I think two things primarily would've been different. One is that I would've been so new. Motherhood is just very lonely, but I think it would've been even lonelier for me because I joined a mom's group. I met up with them as much as possible. I've just tried to reach out to people in my neighborhood to meet up who have kids the same age, and that kind of stuff is vital really. A lot of times when you're just in your house with a one-year-old and laundry, you're going to dissociate. You need that social interaction with other adults, and I don't think that I would have been as proactive about that before. And then the other thing is just with motherhood comes a lot of new things to be anxious about, as you guys know. And I think I have a new kind of relationship with my anxiety, and it's not necessarily so it's because of this meditation class that I took, and it's not because of the meditation itself, but some of the Buddhist teachings that we learned in the meditation class.
Elise (28:41):
Yes. Say more about that.
Olga Khazan (28:43):
So one thing that my meditation teacher would always say, this is going to sound so simplistic, but it honestly was very profound to me. She would always say Things happen that we don't like. And I think part of my problem before was that I thought that I was personally responsible for having everything go, that if something went wrong, if traffic was way worse than expected, if whatever the source didn't call me back or if whatever the power went out, it was somehow my fault. I think I had this kind of just this oldest child mentality that I was responsible for making everything go perfectly. And I think honestly, just having someone else who I saw as very wise and experienced tell me and a group of other people that everyone has things in their life that happen that they would rather not happen, and it's all about how you react to those things and how you deal with them. That, I dunno, that was somehow very comforting to me that it's just like, I know, it's like shit happens is literally at a nineties, but it really, for some reason, it was just very helpful to me to remember that
Doree (30:01):
That notion isn't that what they say about people who tend to get depressed is they do think everything is their fault and that they have brought everything upon themselves and they can't acknowledge that there are things outside of their control. And so being able to have that mindset shift is probably really important.
Olga Khazan (30:24):
Yeah, again, it sounds really simple, but that was a huge shift for me.
Elise (30:27):
Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back.
(30:37):
I had a friend say that the United States is not a psychologically safe place right now. It's just this high stress time you've written about how who knows when we're going to be able to elect a woman, for example, for president, because you need a job to get experience and you need experience to get a job. It's like that conundrum. It's the same thing for being a woman president in this country anyway, and we're speaking to you at a really high stress time for the United States and this fracturing of our shared reality. So this is a little field from your book, but I did want to talk to you about it because you are a science journalist and interested in human behavior and social behavior. So I'm just wondering, given your reporting on how we react to high stress climates and psychologically unsafe situations, just as humans and as humans in relation to one another, does your reporting or any research offer any guidance for coping in this period?
Olga Khazan (31:39):
Yes. So first I just want to acknowledge that it is absolutely a very stressful time. I'm just going to tick off the objectivity pat and say, Trump is incredibly stressful to so many people. Just everything he does, he does something every day that is like, what the hell just happened? What's going to happen now? And in particular, there's specific communities that he's targeting, undocumented immigrants, other people in the federal government that have legitimate reason to be scared. And I would say, first of all, just acknowledge that those feelings are valid. Part of meditation and Buddhism and all the stuff that I researched is just letting negative feelings arise if that's what comes up for you. At the same time, there is some research, this is not in the book, but it's just stuff that I've researched in the past that has helped me at various points that when you're really anxious and there's a good reason for the anxiety, Trump is doing something that literally could affect you and your community. One thing to do is just try to figure out what the anxiety is telling you to do and then do that, use the anxiety to motivate you to do whatever needs to be done
(33:11):
And then kind of try to confine it to a specific period of time. So some people call this a worry period. It's really hard to do this purposefully, but if you just, I learned this from Tracy, Dennis Towari, whose son had a heart condition. So what she would do is when she would get anxious about it, she would sit there and be like, okay, I need to find the best pediatric heart specialist. I need to research this condition. I need to email these three people. And then she would kind of put it to the side and be like, okay, those tasks are done. I have pushed the anxiety ball forward and I'm going to try to proceed with a functional life right now. This is going to be really hard depending on your circumstances, but for example, a federal worker, you could just research, okay, do I take this buyout or do I not? What are my options here? What realistically, how will this play out? Maybe you could talk to a lawyer, maybe you could talk to someone who can give you more information about what you can actually do next instead of just this ambient kind of freaking out, which is tempting, but is less helpful.
Elise (34:26):
And then for a citizen, for one of us who might not be directly affected right now, I think that we're all going to end up getting affected by public policy one way or the other. But I have felt some agency, at least in doing small things like calling my lawmakers, encouraging my friends who are represented by Republican lawmakers to call their lawmakers, making five calls, keeping that sustained, whatever it is, there is some tangible task, and that makes everything seem a little bit less fatalistic. So maybe psychologically that helps too.
Olga Khazan (35:04):
Oh, absolutely. And anxiety, it is activating. You're doing that because on some level, you feel anxious and it's maybe a good thing that you're being activated to do these things that are proactive instead of just zoning out on the couch or not doing anything or telling yourself it'll be fine. In that case, you're kind of using your anxiety for good. So to the extent that people can, which I realize is not always possible, and I think is where a lot of this research gets a little too glib, but to the extent that people can do that, I think that can be an effective way to deal with your anxiety right now in particular.
Elise (35:43):
Okay. And then before we let you go, you tried all these different things. You tried your sailing club, you talked to people who have tried a lot more experiments, and ultimately, was there anything that you didn't get to try or something that you sort of left on the cutting room floor, if you will?
Olga Khazan (36:04):
Yeah, I didn't do psychedelics. I didn't really do a big dose of psychedelics, which is one of the main ways to increase your level of openness. They're illegal, and I don't have access to legal psychedelics, and I wasn't sure, frankly, whether that is kosher with a book to do illegal stuff. But that is one of the ways that all the studies show that people have this huge burst of openness after they do psychedelics, and it actually does tend to stick around for at least a couple months.
Elise (36:38):
And Michael Pollen did a whole book on this, so listeners, if you're interested in that, there's always the Michael Pollen book and
Olga Khazan (36:45):
The others there, the Michael Pollen book, if you know how to get 'em legally or whatever in a way that you feel comfortable with. But with, yeah, I didn't do that, but that is something that is very interesting. Yeah. Very cool.
Doree (36:59):
Well, Olga, thank you so much for coming on and talking about your book and personalities. It was all really interesting. Where can our listeners find you if they want to read your work?
Olga Khazan (37:12):
Yeah, so I write@theatlantic.com. You can just find me there with all the other writers. And I also have a substack, it's Olga hasan@substack.com.
Elise (37:24):
Great. Olga Hasan, thank you so much.
Olga Khazan (37:26):
Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Doree (37:31):
I feel like I learned a lot from Olga both talking to her and reading her book. I really enjoyed our conversation. And let's get into the intention zone. Elise,
Elise (37:44):
We still don't have a sound
Doree (37:47):
I know for this. I know. So I'm just
Elise (37:49):
Going to do it. Yeah.
Doree (37:50):
Okay.
Elise (37:52):
Alright. So for me, my intention last week was just to exercise Again. I re-upped, I ReRack my intention and I did it. And in fact, it makes me, I feel like it's really helped with all of the extra nervous energy because we're waking up in a fresh hell every day.
Doree (38:13):
And
Elise (38:13):
So actually rigorous exercise or vigorous exercise has helped with that. I went running this morning, I'm playing some tennis. I'm taking more difficult mega former classes just to be fully in my body for 45 to 50 minutes at a time. This week we're going to go with sleep hygiene, sleep hygiene, back on the
Doree (38:39):
Docket. Yep. That's been a big theme on this podcast for a very long time. So I'm glad to hear you back on the sleep hygiene train.
Elise (38:52):
And a lot of our guests talk about it too when we ask them about their self care. Oh, totally. They're like, sleep. Totally. I care about my sleep. Leah Lipman was so funny. She's like, I leave parties at eight o'clock.
Doree (39:02):
She is a boundary queen. Honestly, I was just like, yes. I so respect that. I mean, look, I also feel this way. I think I was the first to leave your birthday party
Elise (39:18):
Dinner. You were like, it's time.
Doree (39:20):
I was like, woo, it's nine 30. I better get out of here. Well, because also if you're out, and I don't know if she feels this way too, but if you're out, it takes a while to wind down. I can't come home and go straight to bed. I'm still too sort of amped up, whether it's being out at dinner or at tennis practice or whatever, it doesn't matter. So I feel like I need to build in that wind down time. The
Elise (39:51):
Wind down time. Yeah.
Doree (39:52):
Yes.
Elise (39:52):
And journaling or writing your one line a day, all of that.
Doree (39:57):
And honestly, same for even when I'm home. These last couple nights, I haven't left the house, but at like 9 56, I'm like, okay, TikTok, I got to turn off the tv. I got to start my whole bedtime routine. I also need to take time in bed to do the crossword. I need to build in that time. It's a lot, Elise. It's
Elise (40:28):
Your nighttime routine has many check boxes.
Doree (40:30):
It does. So all this to say, I really, I respect your intention for this week. I'm rooting for you.
Elise (40:38):
Thank you.
Doree (40:39):
Yes.
Elise (40:40):
It's really about earlier bedtime, so we'll
Doree (40:42):
See. Honestly, it is. It is. So last week, my intention was to show up and I am happy to report that I did show up. I did go to my friend's surprise party. I was not the first to leave, but there was another couple that came late and then left 20 minutes later. It was like they were just doing a drive by. So I didn't leave. I wasn't the first leave, but I was probably the second to leave. But I stayed till nine 30 again, which I feel like is pretty good. So I did show up this week. My intention, a lot of the ways that I feel like I keep my mental health stable involves going outside and taking advantage of the fact that we live in Southern California and it rained yesterday and it's going to rain all next week. So I need to recalibrate and figure out some stuff I can do indoors that is going to bring me similar.
Elise (41:52):
Calm,
Doree (41:53):
Calm, ease,
Elise (41:55):
Oxytocin.
Doree (41:56):
You know what I mean? So figure that out.
Elise (42:00):
Okay.
Doree (42:02):
Thank you. Alright everyone, thanks so much for listening. A reminder that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partners Acast. Thanks everyone for listening. Until next time. Bye.