Episode 342: Raising the Friendship Bar with Dr. Marisa Franco
It’s the finale of friendship month, and Doree and Elise speak with return friendship expert Dr. Marisa Franco (author of Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make--and Keep--Friends).
They discuss how as you get older you raise the bar for friendship and focus on quality over quantity, giving your friends the chance to say “no” to you, navigating turmoil in your friendships by starting with curiosity, and why your friendships will really blossom when you stop predicting and start experiencing.
Photo credit: Dr. Darren Agboh
Mentioned in this Episode
Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make--and Keep--Friends by Marisa Franco
Connect with Dr. Marisa Franco
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Transcript
The transcript for this episode Ai generated.
Doree (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Forever 35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise (00:17):
And I'm Elise Hu. And we're just two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree (00:22):
Hello, Elise.
Elise (00:25):
Hello. Hello. It is our final interview in our Friendship Month series today. I can't believe it's just flown by. I tell you, it feels just like yesterday that we got this started.
Doree (00:40):
It's so true. It's been so fun. I've loved everyone we've spoken to. Our guest today is someone who's been on the show before and I enjoyed this conversation as much, if not more than our first one. She was just so great,
Elise (01:00):
And also I feel like I've taken a lot of the friendship month lessons that we have learned from the various guests, like Kasley Killam and her 5 3 1 thing, just to make sure that you do the
Doree (01:13):
Five
Elise (01:14):
Connections for one hour a day and all that. So I've done that. I've thought about that a lot. And then Anna Goldfarb came on our recent mini and answered a lot of questions and I dunno, I just feel like these conversations have been applicable to our friendships and remembering how important they're, and they're just telling your friends.
Doree (01:37):
Yes, I was saying that Friendship Month inspired me to show up to your birthday dinner.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Yeah.
Doree (01:49):
It's inspiring me to show up to a birthday party tomorrow night for someone who I'm not that close with, but I'm like, you know what? It's like a nice thing. I like this person. We just aren't super close. But it was very thoughtful of her husband to invite me to the her surprise party.
Elise (02:10):
A surprise party.
Doree (02:10):
I know. I'm like, Ooh, a surprise party. I feel like I need to get more information. I'm like, do I need to arrive at seven on the dot? If I get there at 7 0 5, am I going to ruin the surprise? What is my window here? I get really nervous about that. Should I just wait till eight 30? What are we talking here? Do I hide in the hedges? Right, exactly. Also, I was actually at her house the other night because I taught her and her friends Mahjong, and it was really hard to not be See you Friday, and she was also like, oh, my birthday's tomorrow. And I was like, oh, it's, oh, cool. I know. So yeah, so I was like, okay, I'm going to go to this and not good. Just make an effort. Jackie Johnson, she's a comedian. She's been on our show. Oh yeah,
Elise (03:10):
Okay.
Doree (03:11):
She had a show called NatchBeaut, so she had a TikTok that kind of went viral about the 40th birthday party that she and her husband threw for themselves, more say. Okay. To be clear, she did not invite me, so I would say we're friendly, but we're not friends. So she's not included in what she was talking about, but they apparently invited something like 300 people. They invited a ton of people. They were having it at a bowling alley in LA and they could have 165 people or something. It was a big party, but her whole thing was that with paperless posts, you can see if someone has opened your invite and not responded.
Elise (03:59):
Oh,
Doree (04:01):
So she was like 57 people opened this and didn't even respond. They didn't RCP? Yes. They didn't RV he, no, they didn't even say I might be able to come. They just didn't respond. And then there were, I forget the exact numbers, but a third of the people who said they could come actually didn't come, and she was just sort of going off about,
Elise (04:26):
Oh no,
Doree (04:28):
The rudeness and is it worse to not respond at all or to say, you're going to come and then flake at the last minute or you know what I mean? She was just like, this is crazy. Now to be clear, she still had over a hundred people show up. It's not like no one came, But I think she was just talking about RSVP etiquette and I do think that there is, I don't dunno if this is an LA specific thing or just a modern life thing, but I do think that there is definitely a subset of people who would rather just ignore something than say that they aren't coming.
Elise (05:08):
Oh, interesting. Interesting. I feel like I am guilty of opening things and forgetting that I ever opened it just in blanking out of my mind.
Doree (05:18):
Yes.
Elise (05:19):
I just got an email reminder about, Hey, you were supposed to let me know what you wanted to talk about on this panel. I'm like, I don't remember the first email.
Doree (05:28):
Right. I know. Well, it is a thing where if I don't respond right away, it often just goes out of my brain.
Elise (05:38):
I'm going to chalk it up to modern life, just overload information, overload too many things competing for our attention whenever. If I'm having a kid birthday party and we do paperless post invites and there were folks that opened it originally but then haven't responded yet, I just send out reminder to RSVP like a week
Doree (05:59):
Out. Totally. Totally. Because
Elise (06:01):
Actually what I rely on, I rely on nudges always feel free to nudge me and nudge me many times because I kind of need it.
Doree (06:10):
Yes, yes, yes. I was sort of like of two minds about her TikTok. On the one hand, I was like, you still got over a hundred people to show up to a birthday party in Los Angeles. That's a lot of people. But I also understand the frustration of not hearing back from people, and I do think that maybe it was because so many people were invited. You could see how many people were invited that people were like, I don't really need to RSVP. There's 300 people invited for your birthday dinner. It was like, oh, there's 12 people. They need to know if I'm coming. If you're invited to a birthday party with 150 other people, you're sort of like, eh, no one's going to care if I'm not there.
Elise (06:58):
That's true. And then if I'm hosting a party with 150 or more, I also don't care. So I also don't check the RSVPs. Exactly, because I'm like, exactly, there's going to be plenty of people here. I don't care. So I need to see the TikTok. I need to see this viral TikTok
Doree (07:19):
To see
Elise (07:19):
What, I'll send it
Doree (07:20):
To you,
Elise (07:20):
What the beef is, but I think you've captured it.
Doree (07:23):
Anyway, all this to say, I'm trying to make more of an effort to show up to things. Yes, good. So if
Elise (07:33):
Friendship Month has done anything, it has certainly touched your life, which is fantastic because that's what we wanted. We wanted people to be like, we didn't do it just for Dory. It's for everybody and all of us.
Doree (07:47):
I was going to say, did we do it just to improve my life because also our perimenopause and menopause month also improved my life.
Elise (07:58):
Amazing.
Doree (07:58):
Amazing. I'm like, what else? What other aspect of my life do I need to improve that we can just have some experts I have to talk to us about.
Elise (08:10):
That's our privilege. That's our privilege as podcasters. Exactly.
Doree (08:12):
I'm finally making this podcast work for me. Amazing. Well, on that note, should we introduce our guest?
Elise (08:26):
Yeah, I will do the honors today we have on for the second time here on Forever 35, but the first time with me in the co-host chair, Dr. Marisa Franco, she works as a professor at the University of Maryland, and she is the author of a book called Platonic, how the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. She writes about Friendship for Psychology today and has been a featured connection expert for major publications like The New Times, the Telegraph and Vice. Dr. Franco speaks on belonging at corporations, government agencies, nonprofits and universities across the country, including Harper Collins Publishers, Cisco American Association for the Advancement of Science and the State Department. We were so delighted to have her on and she's actually in the process of writing her next book, which she talks a little bit about teaser.
Doree (09:21):
Yes, it was really interesting to hear her talk, and just a reminder that you can visit our website forever 35 podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram at Forever 35 podcast. We post some clips from the show on our Instagram. Our Patreon is at patreon.com/forever three five. We will be airing our next pop culture episode, our pop culture recommendations episode that will air next week. So if you're interested in that, check out the Patreon. You can also get a seven day free trial of the Patreon. I'm just saying, Hey and shop our favorite products at Shop my US slash forever five. We also have a newsletter at Forever five podcast com newsletter, and we love getting your texts, your voicemails, your emails. You can call or text us at five nine one zero three nine zero and email us at February five podcast. Here is Dr. F,
(10:27):
Dr. Marisa Franco. Welcome back to Forever 35. We're so excited to be talking to you again.
Dr. Marisa Franco (10:34):
Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
Doree (10:36):
Yeah, well, I guess Elise, you didn't talk to her the first time around, but that's right. Dr. Franco was on the show in 2022. Kate and I interviewed her about her amazing book, and then when it was time to book guests for Friendship month, it was like, well, we should obviously have her back. So thank you for coming back.
Dr. Marisa Franco (10:57):
Happy to be here.
Doree (10:58):
Yeah. Well, as you know, because you answered this question before, we like to start off by asking our guests about a self-care practice. So I'm wondering if there's something different that you're doing now or just something else you want to mention.
Dr. Marisa Franco (11:16):
This is a big question for me because writing my next book on healing, but the self-care practice has been spending a lot of time with my pain, mental pain, like, oh, if I'm upset or sad, closing my eyes, and what does that feel in my body? Tracking it as it moves through my body, never dismissing my pain, never, I don't know, just always making space for it.
Elise (11:41):
I really struggled with that as well until I guess my mid thirties and I have to say, it kind of opens things up. What has it done for you? Just allow yourself to feel pain and feel discomfort.
Dr. Marisa Franco (11:58):
It has been life-changing, I would say. There's a lot of times I don't understand where my pain is coming from unless I spend time with it and tune into what does it feel like in my body or what past memories are coming up, and it also feels like every time I do, I'm cleaning out the accumulation of stuff that makes up a trigger. So it's made me so much more just regulated and present.
Elise (12:21):
Yeah, yeah, awesome.
Dr. Marisa Franco (12:22):
Not easy though. No. Yeah,
Elise (12:26):
No, it is like fracking. You have to, yeah, it's a lot of pressure and then it's deep. Dr. Franco, you've been on here before, so we want to kind of get to the current moment as we think about friendship and connection. Could you talk to us about how people are making friendship and community work for them right now? Because it is a time of a lot of fear and stress depending on what communities you're in. I had a friend say to me not too long ago that America is not a psychologically safe place right now.
Dr. Marisa Franco (12:59):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean absolutely, and that makes it harder to connect, but it also makes it easier because it's like, I dunno where I am going for hope. Where I am going for safety is the communities that have been filled with people that make me feel safe and secure and make me feel like what's going on more generally mean doesn't mean that everyone kind of thinks these ways or sees things the way that they do, and so I think it can feel scary to make community in some ways, like, well, I don't know. It seems prejudice and bigotry have become part of the public psychic heist even more, especially if you hold certain identities, but at the same time, we need it more than ever and turning towards it can be a great place of hope.
Doree (13:48):
Yeah. I know last time we talked to you, we talked a lot about making friends and keeping friends in your thirties, and I was hoping we could kind of expand that a little bit. I'm wondering if you have done any research or if you have any insights into friendships among older adults, let's say over, I don't know, 60, I'm curious what is similar? What is different? Is there an age where we're too old to make new friends? That was a leading question. Controversial devil's that we can't
Dr. Marisa Franco (14:29):
Hear. Friendship is over at 55, so this is a great question and what we see as we get older is that we raise the bar for friendship. People tend to let go of the more fringe friends and focus on quality over quantity, and this is because how you navigate friendship is how you navigate a life stage. And when you're in your twenties, you want to expand and learn and grow and experiment and figure out who you're, and be exposing yourself to a ton of different people is one way to do that. But as you get older, you really start thinking about time is precious. I want to spend time with people that are meaningful to me, who I love, who make me feel like myself, who I feel nourished by their company. And so there's this great pruning that tends to happen as we get older where we're sort of just like, okay, that friend that I made me a little bit anxious or we're not quite a fit, but I was like, they're interesting. I'm going to let go of that and I'm going to turn towards the people that make me feel loved and safe.
Elise (15:36):
Has being a friendship expert taught you anything that you've now applied to your friendships in research? What have you taken from becoming an expert on all of this into your actual relationships?
Dr. Marisa Franco (15:50):
One is make the unsaid said, it has revolutionized how I do conflict in friendships where I used to ignore it and blame it on myself if I had a problem. And I realized from the research that I'm limiting intimacy. I'm making my friendships more fragile and I'm limiting an opportunity for me to get to know my friends' needs and for them to get to know mine. So the magic of bringing up problems rather than withdrawing or blaming yourself has been not only life-changing for me, but my friends have started to do it from their experience with me, with their other friends because a lot of us have not had an experience maybe outside romantic partnership of conflict that doesn't feel like an attack, but feels like an act of love. And once people receive that, it's so powerful that it's like they want to start testifying and spreading the word.
(16:40):
So conflict that looks like, Hey, I love you. I want to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding you. What did you mean when you said that? Starting with curiosity. Okay, here's where I took that because this is some of my own triggers that have come up for me. Let's figure out what this can look like going forward. Defanging conflict, I was talking about this yesterday. It feels like a way to make your friendships more foolproof because now every time there's an issue you're like, oh, we know we can work through this. You've done it before. We don't have to get cagey, we don't have to
Doree (17:09):
Pull away. Let's just chop it up. Let's do it. Let's do what we do.
Elise (17:13):
Is there a good example of that and how that's worked for you in your own life?
Dr. Marisa Franco (17:18):
Oh yeah. My gosh, me and my best friend Kana, we are conflict aficionados now. I definitely have a lot of trouble when people seem like angry. I shut down. I feel like this feels like a little bit dangerous for me. I grew up a parent that was very angry, so we were actually discussing politics and how pissed off she was about politics. I disagreed with her a little bit. Then she kind of continued to be very passionate and I completely shut down and I was almost immobilized and she was kind of just like, Hey, what's happening? Do you need some space? She was living with me at the time, what's happening? Do you need some space? And I was like, I know that I'm reacting a lot more strongly than what happened. So I think that some previous triggers are coming up for me right now and I do want to talk to you about it, but give me two days.
(18:15):
And so we had that conversation and I was just like, yeah, I think I get really scared of something bad happening when there's a lot of anger and I know that you never said anything like that. The ability to hold two realities, which is like, this is how my body's reacting. And I also see a broader reality I think is so good in conflict. So you're not just like, you were out of control. I feel so shut down. That's like all your fault, that dual, dual reality. And so I explained to her that sort of dual reality and that sometimes I can mix those up when people are angry that associated with danger in a way that it's not necessarily. And she heard me so much and she was just like, okay, now I know this about you. Now I understand this about you. Thank you so much for sharing. I never want to make you feel that way. Let me know how I can do something different going forward. And it's been one of the most powerful moments. I think I was at my most vulnerable because rarely am I that triggered that. I'm like, I can't get off the couch.
Elise (19:14):
Well, and then plus with the self-care that you're working on, it seems like you're able to accept and look into and interrogate your own trigger too. So that's awesome.
Dr. Marisa Franco (19:23):
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Doree (19:27):
For people who have not historically been able to do that with their friends for whatever reason, that's just sort of been the nature of their friendship, but they want to, how would you suggest going about it? Because it does sort of seem to change the nature of a friendship, right?
Dr. Marisa Franco (19:45):
Totally. Yeah. So there's this really cool concept I like called framing, and it's on the research on how to talk to narcissists and get them to be a little less narcissistic. And you basically go into the conversation reminding your friend that I want to talk through this. You are important to me. I love you. I do not want anything to come between us. So because of people's assumptions when you bring stuff up is often that I'm bad. You're shaving me just from the get go, coming into the conversation reassuring them that this is a, and the second thing I think people can do is start with curiosity, which is like, this happened and I kind just want to understand more about what was going on for you. Where are you coming from? And that's really important because when people feel heard, they tend to hear you one and two, they might share something that might completely change your own take on things.
(20:37):
Maybe a friend is like, yeah, I didn't show up and I didn't text you because I've been really depressed and that's been really hard. And you go from man, you're a crappy friend. I took that personally to empathy. And then things like sharing I statements, I felt like this when that happened and not you, you're a bad friend, you always do this. And then making a collaborative choice going forward. Okay, what do things look like from here when this comes up again, what can happen? But I also think giving your own self time to process and come down from your anger is important because how you approach it, whether you seem centered or really panicked, is also going to influence the vibe and also really thinking about this different, it's also a mindset shift because I thought to be a good friend was to absorb the conflict and not bring it up. But a lot of the times, first of all, you're holding someone guilty without giving them a trial. You're not giving them a chance to share their perspective and you're assuming whatever your own story is about it.
(21:43):
Also, we often do that because we're afraid of being abandoned, but we end up abandoning the friendship anyway. So we try to escape a possibility with a certainty that things will go badly. We just withdraw because we don't bring stuff up. And the last thing is if people love you, they don't want to hurt you. I mean, thank you for telling me that I'm hurting you. I don't want to do that. And so trusting that people love you I think is one of the hardest acts in friendship, but is going to make our friendships better in so many different ways.
Elise (22:17):
I have this crazy example, I love that with my own friend about this because I had a friend who asked me if I wanted to go to a Ja Rule and fabulous concert. This is actually going to get back to your point, I promise. And she spelled it fabulous. And I was like, dingdong, it's spelled F-A-B-O-L-O-U-S. You should know that it's with's on every song. He spells it all out. And she was like, oh yeah, okay. Oh, I'm so sorry. And I guess she took it very personally because she felt as though I was making fun of her intelligence. And a day later she texted me and she said, Hey, your friendship means a lot to me and this is why I'm bringing it up. Hey, she my book baby. And she's like, but I've been thinking about what you said to me yesterday in text, and it really hurt my feelings because my dad used to make fun of me for not being
(23:16):
Smart enough. And so I didn't realize, of course, I had no idea. And I really was making a joke about fabulous and how he purposely spells his name wrong. But it ended up being this moment that really crystallized something for me about my friend that I didn't realize. I didn't realize that this was a trigger for her, and I didn't mean to obviously step on a live wire, but I think it's really important that we bring up each other's wires. You might trip this, I accidentally did. So is, I mean, that's my example of kind of what you're saying.
Dr. Marisa Franco (23:48):
Yeah, she did really good articulating that too. She was like, I know,
Elise (23:51):
But I felt so guilty. So when I got that, I was like, oh my gosh. And then actually my first reaction was, wow, she's taking this so personally, but I needed to get rid of my own sort of shame about feeling like I had hurt someone too. So that was very instructive actually.
Dr. Marisa Franco (24:10):
Yeah, it sounds like you went through a whole journey over there.
Elise (24:15):
Well, speaking of kind of midlife friendships, one thing we've been exploring throughout this month of friendship as our key topic is the friendship dip that happens in our thirties because so many folks are focused on family and focused on work and being a baller at work that we put our friendships on the back burner a little bit more. So I'd love to know how to handle that dip and what advice you have.
Dr. Marisa Franco (24:44):
I'm thinking about this study that looks at what predicts whether friends become best friends, and it's this concept called identity affirmation, which means we affirm each other in our unique identities, even if your identities are really different from mine. And so I think what that means is we tend to fork in the kind of life experiences that we're having in our thirties. Some people are having kids, some people are traveling the world. There's just a lot of range is just because that's not your life experience doesn't mean that you can't be interested in it and you can't enter into your friend's life experience. So that might look like, okay, maybe you don't have kids your friend does. Do you want to hang out with their kid sometime get into their world or Yeah, people with tiny children often have a very limited schedule. Do you have the flexibility to have dinner with them or bring dinner for their families?
(25:37):
And then for your single friends, if there's hobbies or interests that you have that your're friends with, kids might not have time to think about that as much. You can invite them out to that. And so I think I said this too in the last episode that a lot of the times we're breaking apart because of assumptions rather than truth, right? I'm assuming you're too busy now because you have this and this going on. I'm assuming my life's too boring and tedious for you, so I don't share anything about it anymore. And so it's like we are bracing for rejection, but instead going in with what if my friend might be interested in this? What if my friend might be open to this? Let me still make the ass. I always give people a chance to say no to you. For my friends that have kids, I'm still going to invite them. And even if they can't come, I know they want to be invited. And so giving them a chance to say no I think is just really important as our lives start to change. And also having a really long-term perspective of a friendship.
(26:36):
I interviewed with some guy on another podcast, he's 60 and he's like, and they come back, their kids get older and they retire, and then it's like when you're young again. And so even if this might be a stage, I'm thinking of a study of long distance friendships that they stay close when people assume that they're flexible, not fragile, that we might go through a sleepier stage, but that doesn't mean that it's over. And I feel like I can have the flexibility to still reach out even if we haven't talked for a while to rekindle our connection. Love it. Love
Doree (27:07):
That. I love that. What about when it comes to economic imbalances? Because I feel like as we get older, that can be something that really affects the nature of our friendships. As you get older, it can sometimes seem like you are out of sync with your peers, and I'm wondering what you would suggest to help people navigate that situation?
Dr. Marisa Franco (27:34):
Yeah, this is a great question. I think a friendship as a Venn diagram, there's parts of us that overlap and there's parts of us that don't, right? And that's just true about anything. And so economically, if you're really bougie and you love to go to these fancy dinners and your friend is not there economically, you're more than a fancy dinner. There's things that will interest you
(27:54):
Outside of that and keep that in mind, even if that's what you typically do is very expensive. That doesn't mean it's the totality of everything that you would like to do. And so what are some things that you like to do that maybe are more affordable for your friend? I mean, do you like to go to the park? Do you want to have a picnic? Do you like to go? I mean, the museums are free, but I know that they cost money elsewhere. There's just a lot. I think just generally a lot of being a good friend is seeing your identity more flexibly and not rigidly and acknowledging people, for example, that are neurodivergent. That comes a lot harder than people that are neurotypical. But yes, that I think I've been doing this thing. So me and my best friend, we actually, we've become very different.
(28:38):
I'm a tomboy. She's very well manicured. Like yeah, I like text friends about who's the aesthetician that they use. I didn't even pronounce that word right, because I dunno what And what we decided to do is to stop predicting and start experiencing where I can assume I'm not interested in the things that you like as someone who's more traditionally feminine than me, but what if those stories aren't true? So we went to a flower making class. I would not pick a flower making class for myself, but this was us trying to bridge our divides and identities. And I like that flower making class. I was like, this is manual labor. You got to equip these flowers, you got to cut off all the leaves. It's very tactile. And so I think when it comes to our friends differences in their identities, stop predicting, start experiencing, stop saying to yourself, that's not the kind of thing I like to do. And start doing it and then after the fact, observe your experience of it.
Elise (29:39):
Okay, let's take a break and we will be right back. One theme that we keep returning to in this conversation, and one theme that has been really resonant in your work just in preparing for the interview has been what you talked about at the top of this conversation, which is the importance of dealing with our own shadow stuff, the importance of dealing with our own baggage in order to have richer relationships. So I'd love for you just to talk more about that and why it's so crucial.
Dr. Marisa Franco (30:14):
Well, I mean, this is from my new book, we perceive reality through the lens of our memories. And so what that means is that if I've been rejected in the past, I've been bullied when you say something that feels a little bit off all of the, I'm going to experience in my body the same thing I experienced when I was bullied. So what that means is that we're all perceiving reality so differently based off of our previous experiences. And if I have a lot of things that I've gone through that I haven't taken the time to sit with or process, all of that baggage is going to layer itself onto how I'm perceiving reality now. And that's what attachment cells are really. I mean, I talked a little bit about attachment styles there. Basically your relationship with your parents that then shapes how you perceive reality going forward in a way that you see things that match that reality of how they treated you and ignore information that's counter to it.
(31:09):
And so if you have a lot of unprocessed stuff, you're going to see rejection where it's not there. You're going to assume people don't like you, even if they really do, you are going to have trouble doing all the things that make connection but also are so risky, which are being vulnerable or initiating a new friendship or sharing affection with people. All of those things are going to feel a lot more scary and high stakes because they're, again, building off of every, it's like you're having all the experiences. You had a rejection before at once, unless you revisit those experiences and clean them out a little bit.
Doree (31:42):
So good. What is something that in your research and just everything you've been writing about the science of friendship that you have found sort of surprises people the most or is maybe counterintuitive?
Dr. Marisa Franco (32:00):
So I think especially when I speak on friendship at different organizations, one theme that I really like to emphasize is this concept of under sociality, which means that when we predict the impact of our behaviors towards connection, we underestimate how much people value them. So specific examples, when strangers interact and report how much they like each other, they underestimate how liked they are. It's called the liking gap. When people do random acts of kindness, they're told to give someone hot chocolate at the ice skating rink and report how much joy that will bring. They underestimate how much joy it'll bring When people are told to write cards to people they love and predict how much people will appreciate that, they underestimate how much people appreciate that. When people rekindle relationships with people they've fallen out of touch with, often they assume they've moved on, they don't want to hear from me.
(32:48):
They underestimate just how much people value that act. And so across the board, we are a lot more scared than what is warranted by the reality. In fact, people tend to enjoy when we reach out to them, when we tell them how much we value them, when we're kind towards them, they're not like, you're a freak that's coming on too strong, which is I think what critical voice tells a lot of us. And so one tip that I try to tell people because our brain is glitchy in this way of valuing safety over connection when the two are pitted against each other, is instead of thinking about how will that friend see it if I reach out to them, ask yourself, how would I see it If they reached out to me, how would I see it if they affirmed me, how would I see it? If they were vulnerable with me, then you're probably, you get over a little bit that are built in safety mechanism of being very cynical and you're getting a lot more accurate take on how your friend will probably receive the active connection that you put out.
Elise (33:43):
And on that aspect of rekindling friendships, so a lot of folks I remember studying regret or doing some reading around regret. The takeaway that I recall is that the one regret that's very difficult to metabolize is the what if you didn't do something that's kind of like the one regret that you hold onto because miss that opportunity. So for folks who want to rekindle a friendship or they've lost touch with somebody over a long period of time, but they're too scared because it's like, oh, it's been so much time and we slow faded, what advice do you have?
Dr. Marisa Franco (34:19):
Well, first I tell you that that's really normal. The number one reason friendship send is because they fade, not because we hate each other and don't want to talk to each other anymore. So you're certainly not alone. Second, I would tell you that the person probably wants to hear from you more than you're assuming if you're anything like the research. And third, I would say one good way to reach out to people from your past is to just share a memory. Oh, I was just thinking about that time we went to that awesome book talk on platonic love together. I was just thinking about that restaurant we went to when we had that amazing thing, and it made me want to reach out to you and see how you're doing. And then if they're responsive, you can say, I have just been really, yeah, and I would love to reconnect some time if you're open to it and then take it from there.
Elise (35:04):
That reminds me of what one of our guests on the topic of friendship talked about in terms of in real life memories. The reason why in real life hanging out in real life is so important in nurturing our friendships is because you make memories. Because nobody's like, Hey, that one zoom. We had that one time.
Dr. Marisa Franco (35:25):
No, that has never happened to me. No one has ever said that. So maybe after today, I will remind you all of this one
Elise (35:33):
So memorable as we age, can friendship kind of be the fuel that really fuels a life well lived and a full life?
Dr. Marisa Franco (35:47):
What's so cool about friendship, as we get older, a lot of our relationships are set, right? Maybe married someone, you're going to stay married to them and your family, I don't know, everyone's popping up. Babies not so often in the larger lifespan of things, but friends, you kind of can keep making them and they can keep bringing this fresh energy into your life. And that is so meaningful. And there is research that finds that in old age time with friends predicts health better than time with spouse or time with family. And part of the reason that is, is because we tend to be so intentional about time with friends. It's not like, oh, I guess we're going to sit next to each other and watch Netflix another day. It's like, let's plan an activity. There's just a bit more intentionality behind it. And so we're doing things that we really enjoy because friendship isn't a default relationship in some ways.
(36:44):
Other types of relationships are where we're just, you're here when I get home. Hello. I have to make the time, which also means I have to choose an activity maybe that I would actually really want to do and have the time to do this with you. So friendship in old age is so important. And we also see that commonly cited statistic loneliness is as toxic as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And what researchers say is what really gets us to age is even more than habits, harmful health habits. It's like loneliness. Loneliness really ages us. Part of the reason is when we're lonely, our body gets into a state of chronic stress where we're perceiving everything happening around us as more threatening, impacting us more negatively than we would if we were in a state of connection. And just in terms of biologically, when we connect with people, we release oxytocin, which researchers also call a hormone that is the fountain of youth. It keeps us young. So it's just really, really important and critical as we get older to still be investing in these connections.
Elise (37:43):
Plus with partnered older people, women outlive men. And so yeah, it's really important.
Doree (37:51):
I know you mentioned that your next book is about healing, but I'm wondering also if you have other big friendship questions that you are interested in doing more research on.
Dr. Marisa Franco (38:04):
I'm really interested in this question of not how we make friends, but how do we make community? And I think community is different because I don't necessarily have to like you to be in community of you. It's just we are committed to taking care of each other when you need something. I'm trying to give it to you. There's a general ethos of it's somewhat my business, how you are doing, and somewhat my responsibility. And I think especially in these times, we need to be thinking about community more and how do we take care of each other and what does it look like to build community, especially in such an individualistic culture. And so I think that has been a question that's been on my mind
Elise (38:48):
Much and it dove. Yeah, and it dovetails really nicely with a question that we wanted to kind of leave you with, which is how have you made it easier for community to mix in with the rest of your life?
Dr. Marisa Franco (39:03):
What a good question. Well, I try to create community everywhere I go. So for example, I teach a class on why are we all so lonely and how to make friends. And the assignments are like hang out with each other without your phones and plan a social event for the class. And every day the class starts with people sharing photos from their lives and ends with them sharing something they appreciate. And I started the social committee at my job and we plan happy hours biweekly. I have joined some organizing communities and I've been like, Hey, make the movement irresistible. I think Grace Lee Bog said, and I think how we make it irresistible is make it a place where people belong. So I'm like, we're starting with an icebreaker. We're ending by affirming something someone else has said. I just see it as it's kind of like the water underneath everything. Like us being good at everything, us being good at our work, being good parents performing well, us political movements, right? Connection is just underneath all of those things. It's never irrelevant to me.
Elise (40:08):
Lovely, lovely. Well, Dr. Marisa Franco, before we let you go, let us know how folks can find you and if you want to share when your next book is going to arrive and all of that.
Dr. Marisa Franco (40:21):
Yeah. So at my Instagram, dr Marisa g franco.com, that's D-R-M-A-R-I-S-A-G-F-R-A-N-C-O-I share tips on the science of connection at my website, dr Marisa g franco.com. You can take a quiz that assesses your strengths and weaknesses as a friend, gives you some feedback, and you can reach out for any speaking events. I speak on belonging at work or how to make friends more generally.
Elise (40:42):
Yes. My one tip is don't correct your friends on how they spell. Fabulous.
Dr. Marisa Franco (40:48):
Thanks Dr. Franco. Thank you so much. Yeah, this was my pleasure. Bye.
Doree (40:56):
You know what I thought would be an interesting companion piece to some of these Friendship Expert episodes is if we interviewed the friends of the Friendship experts.
Elise (41:08):
Oh yeah. Who's your best friend? And then we go call up their best friend
Doree (41:14):
And we're like, so is Dr. Franco really a good friend?
Elise (41:22):
I bet they are. I bet they're
Doree (41:23):
Amazing friends. I know. I bet they're all really good friends. Just kind of made me laugh. Okay, so last week I was talking about how my husband and I were doing these action items and how's that going? We're still pretty much doing them. We're definitely having more conversations about things we need to do. And he saw someone, he knows who he saw someone he knows who had gone to rehab, and this friend was like, Hey, here's what I paid tens of thousands of dollars to learn. You can't fixate on the mistakes or you can't fixate on the past. You can't fixate on things that you should have done differently. And you can't worry too much about the future. You have to live in the present. You have to think about, what do I need to do today? And of course, that's very oversimplified, but I think it really sunk in on a sort of deep level because I do think that as Matt and I are going through a lot of these challenges right now, it's so easy to be like, oh, you know what? We really should have done X, Y, Z, and then get caught up in that. And so
(42:44):
Not doing that, I think is something that we're focusing on. So that is part of my intention for next week. And also just show up. I'm just going to continue to show up.
Elise (42:57):
Well, yeah, I mean, it's a blessing for the rest of us. All your friends get to enjoy you when you show up.
Doree (43:06):
Lucky them. Lucky them. Yes. Lucky me. Lucky you. What about you, Elise? You were going to exercise
Elise (43:12):
Again? That didn't work out.
Doree (43:15):
Okay. Alright. Well you were traveling.
Elise (43:18):
Yeah, I've just, I'm at capacity. I feel like I haven't been this busy since probably foreign correspondence days. And it's because I'm so close to trying to find some sort of financing for this documentary project that
(43:35):
Wouldn't have started, had Los Angeles not caught on fire. So it wasn't planned for my 2025 that my year would suddenly become more busy, but Los Angeles caught on fire. And so that led to this new creative project, which is following teenage fire victims. So that's been nuts. So I went and took one tennis lesson. So one out of five days isn't bad. I try to have a unit of exercise five days of the week, but I made it one day. So I'm going to repeat my intention. We're going to try this again. We're going to ReRack re racking this
Doree (44:10):
Intention. We're racking exercises. Did you go back to your old tennis instructor?
Elise (44:17):
No.
Doree (44:18):
Okay. Alright. I think that's wise.
Elise (44:20):
I can't find him.
Doree (44:21):
Yeah, I think that's for the best
Elise (44:26):
For both of us.
Doree (44:28):
For
Elise (44:28):
Everyone, yeah, for everyone involved. He was getting hounded by me. He still owes me one lesson, but we're just going to have to let this go.
Doree (44:34):
Yeah. Alright. Alright. Well, before we say goodbye, we like to thank our Patreon supporters at the Hotel, spa and Sweet Levels, which is the $10 level or above. As part of our thanks to you, you get your name read on the podcast each and every month. And since Elise did it last month, I will take it this month.
Elise (45:03):
Okay.
Doree (45:04):
Thank you to the following forever. 35. Patreon supporters, Caitlin h Katie, Ashley Taylor, Theresa Anderson, Michelle Maya, Barbara Chios, Amy, Sarah Fitz, Amy Schnitzer, Heather Hale, Megan Donald Brew, Jr. Helen De Mos, Shelly Lee, Kim Beagler. Sarah, Sarah Boozy. Alison Cohen, Susan Eth, Melissa McLean, Linny Jones, Fran, Kelsey Wolfe, Donna, Laura, DY, jet, APTI, Valerie, Bruno, Julie, Daniel, Katie, Tron, E, Jackson, Alicia, Amy, Mako, Liz. Rain. J. DK. Jennifer Smith, Hannah M Julia Putt, Maddie O'Day, Marisa, Lauren, Gitlin, Bel, Maria, Diana, Coco Bean, Laura Hadden, Josie h, Nikki Bossert, Juliana Duff, Chelsea Torres, Angie James, Tiffany G, Emily McIntyre, Stephanie Ana, Elizabeth Anderson, Kelly Dearborn, Christine Bassis, Alison Mark Lane, Jessica Gale, Zulema, Lundy, Carolyn Rodriguez, Carrie Gold's a T. Nikki, Catherine Ellingson, Kara Bregman, Sarah H Sarah Egan, Jess Bin, Jennifer Olson, Jennifer Hs, Eliza Gibson, Jillian Bowman, Brianne, Macy, Karen, Perelman, Katie, Jordan, Sarah, m Lisa, Travis, Kate, M, Emily, Brie, Josie, Quist, Tara, Todd, Elizabeth Cleary, and Monica.
(46:29):
I have no idea what order those are in, but I'm sure Patreon has some idea of what order those are in. But thank you all so much. We are so grateful for your support. If you want to support us on Patreon, get those casual chats, those pop culture wrecks, the Forever 35 questionnaire, all kinds of other fun bonus content. You can do that at patreon.com/forever. Three five and Forever 35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hu, and produced and edited by Samee Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thanks everybody.
Elise (47:05):
Thank you
Doree (47:05):
Guys. Bye.