Episode 315: No One's Performing, Just Here to Chill with Sable Yong
It’s the first Forever35 Live Taping in almost 5 years! Doree and Elise sat down with writer Sable Yong to reflect on the bonding experience of a Korean bathhouse, where to draw the line on procedures, and why a “yassified” look persists in the age of the internet. Taped in front of an audience at Village Well Books in Culver City.
Mentioned in this Episode
Mentioned in this Episode
Full audience Q/A with Sable Yong (coming tomorrow on Patreon only!)
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Transcript
Doree: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Doree Shafrir.
Elise: And I'm Elise Hugh. And we are two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Doree: I am so excited to just get into our guest today because this is the first time that we have recorded a live podcast. I think Kate and I, I'm trying to remember, I think we did it once at South by Southwest, but that was years ago. I mean, that was pre pandemic. I was pregnant, so I mean it was like 2019 and then since then we have not done anything. And I just love that you just came in being like, let's do this. And I was like, okay. We had so much fun. And then you just made it happen. It was so fun.
Elise: Yes. So this was the first live taping of Forever35 in at least five years. And since Doree's family was one person Fewer, yes. We did it at a bookstore in Culver City, which is in la, and the guest was just kind of like our Tressie episode with one mic drop after another, after another. Very thoughtful, very vulnerable, very funny. And the best part for me, besides the conversation was the q and a, which we are going to share the audience q and a on the Patreon, so the full event will be available there. Our conversation, the one between Doree, myself and our guest Sable Yang are part of this episode. But the other really great thing was getting to meet listeners. So some of y'all came up to us and told Doree that they had been listening for probably since the last time you did a live taping.
Doree: Totally. And yeah, everyone was so excited to meet you and just had such nice things to say about the show, and it was just really nice. I mean, it was like a random Sunday afternoon in August. I was like, are people going to come to this? I don't know. And people really showed up. So if you came, thank you. If you thought about coming, but you couldn't make it. Thank you. And we want to do more. We want to do more. It was super fun. So stay tuned. I guess El, should we just get right into our guest?
Elise: Sure. I'm happy to introduce her.
Doree: Okay, great.
Elise: Our guest this week for our live taping, which you'll get to hear soon, is Sable Young. Sable is a beauty writer and ugly crier and a website haver. Those are her words, not mine. I haven't seen her cry and I doubt she's actually an ugly crier. She's a writer from New York and a former beauty editor at Allure. She's been a beauty and culture writer for the past dozen years. Her work can be read in Allure, Vogue, Harper's Bazaar L, so many other places. She now writes the newsletter, hard Feelings, hosts the podcast, smell You Later about all things smell and scent related. And she has a new excellent essay collection called Die Hot with a Vengeance, which we got to chop it up with her about.
Doree: She's so cool. Her book is so great. It's funny, smart, incisive, and I really recommend it. So before we get to Sable, I do just want to remind everyone you can visit our website, FE 35 podcast.com. We have links there to everything we mentioned on the show. We are on Instagram at FE three five podcast. We've been putting up fun clips from our guest interviews on our Instagram, so you can check those out. Our Patreon is at patreon.com/forever three five, and that's where we'll be posting our audience q and a, which was so great. I know, Elise, you just mentioned this, but I was so impressed with the thoughtfulness of the questions from our listeners. It was really cool. We have a newsletter at Forever35 podcast.com/newsletter, and you can call or text us at five nine one zero three nine zero and email us at Forever five Podcast gmail. And I also do just want to say stick around after the Sable Young interview because we are going to do intentions and I do have an important one bag update. Yay. Okay, so here's Sable. I traveled so far to be
Elise: Yes so far.
Doree: So as you may know, we always start our conversations with guests by asking them about a self-care practice that they have. So we are wondering what are you doing right now that you would categorize as self-care?
Sable: One thing I've realized in the past year that really does have an effect is going to a Korean bathhouse. Best done with friends. Just you just get butt ass naked, sit in the soup, hot soap, cold soup, hot soup, cold soup, and it feels incredible. And it's a great excuse to not look at your phone. You can't have them, and then you'll just pass the whole day just feeling very relaxed and wrinkly. It's also just a great bonding experience with some close friends.
Elise: How long are you able to stay at a gym?
Sable: I feel like my average time is four hours. Wow. And then sometimes I do the full body scrub. It's like a once a year thing. I just shed the last year off and every year I forget that it's a semi unpleasant experience. No,
Elise: Your dead skin cells are coming off you a snowblower.
Sable: It's satisfying. It's like pencil dust, eraser, dust, it comes off of you. But in the moment I'm like, oh, right, this hurts. But it feels so good afterwards.
Elise: Well, let's talk a little bit about your pathway, how you wound up in a career as a beauty editor and now an author writing about the politics of beauty, beauty and power. How did you get here? How did all start?
Sable: Oh man. I feel like it's a really popular question. It was just like, how did you do this? How did you get your job? And it's really stupid because in 2012 I was writing a Craigslist ad looking for a roommate after my roommate just pieced out in two weeks notice. So I was frantically writing this very extensive over Sherry Craigslist ad that was, I guess very entertaining. And this one editor emailed me saying like, Hey, I don't need a roommate, but I just started working at this new beauty site, exo vain, do you write? I was like, do you pay? And then that was it. Do you still have the ad? I, I think it was somehow lost in an old hard drive, but I was looking for it the other day.
Doree: That's like the precursor to people who got jobs on Twitter or something. I
Sable: Know when people are asking that, they're kind of earnestly trying to compare paths and seeing what they can replicate to get that. I was like, there's literally no way you can have the same result from writing a weird practice a had you wanted to get into beauty writing or this was something that was just sort of circumstantial? It was pretty circumstantial letting, I've always been a writer. I was really into Live Journal back in the day into Live Journal. What was your live journal name? What was it called? Wow. It just literally is blanked out of my brain. I haven't logged in 20 years, so I dunno. Is Live Journal still around? I think it's still exists. Oh wow. Yeah. But don't really know if it's used much.
Elise: You got to go in there for a little blast from the past.
Sable: Let's bring
Elise: It back. Yeah. Okay. So you went from the Craigslist ad to a job then how did you wind up in magazines?
Sable: So Exo Vein, which was the first site I wrote for, was it was kind of great as a beginner because they didn't have a ton of, this will sound like a roast journalistic rules
Doree: And no
Sable: Standards. The standards were very lax, I will say that. But they really championed this first person individualistic experiential narrative, which is really fun to do as a person who doesn't know how to do beauty writing correctly or what you think is correctly. So that was really fun and that my work on that site had just slowly gotten me more and more freelance work. And the beauty editorial world is a lot smaller than you think it is. Everyone kind of knows each other or they become aware of each other in some way. So after I think years of freelancing, Philip Bacardi, who he used to be the beauty editor at Teen Vogue, and then he was hired to be the new digital director of allure.com. He was building his new team. So he just DMed me and was like, Hey, I'm building a new team at Allure. Do you want to be on it? And I was like, seriously?
Elise: Yes. And then you ended up trying a lot of different products
Sable: And procedures along the way. That was truly the Golden Gate opening because when you have a name like Allure under your belt and on your resume, people just open all sorts of doors for you. So that was very enlightening.
Doree: Along those lines, what is something that you think the average person would be surprised to learn about beauty media?
Sable: I think the one thing that I always like to tell people is that I think a lot of people are rightfully annoyed with media clickbait and they're like, well, why do we always write about the Kardashians? I'm like, because you click on it. You are making me do this. I wish people knew that the things you click on are the things that the media covers. It's this weird cycle. So that is something that I think a lot of people, maybe they're a little bit aware of, but not truly aware of. We have all these really creepy analytics websites that show what everyone is searching, the top search terms and the most searched celebrities and stuff like that. So we all kind of are beholden to that, and that's all determined by what the general populace is searching. So it's a real chicken and egg. It is it? Yeah.
Elise: So in this collection, there's 10 essays in the collection and you detail this product testing and human Guinea pig in a lot of hilarious, but also poignant and observant ways. So I'm just curious what stands out among what you've tried on yourself or tried to do to yourself as a human test subject?
Sable: I think I've been very privileged to have access to very expensive procedures that are like $1,200 facials, and a lot of them are very unpleasant
Micro microneedling. Infrared Morpheus eight was at one point deemed on the level of a childbirth pain, which I cannot personally vouch for, but it's bad. Yeah, it's bad. And I did it. It was like I really got, because it was free, I'm like, sure. And then I was on the table, I was like, I might die here. And I signed a waiver, so there's nothing I can do about it. It didn't do then the true tragic comedy at the end is I look the same. I was like, I pretty much look the same, just like with little holes in my face. Great.
Elise: Well, that race is kind of the follow-up question, which is we understand that you kind of drew the line at permanence. Like if it is something that you can't undo, you wouldn't try it. But now that there are so many, there's of this democratization of beauty procedures and products, it's getting cheaper, it's getting lighter and less invasive. Where should we draw the line when it comes to a lot of this stuff that we could do to ourselves
Sable: That's really hard to decide. Everyone has their own individual a threshold, economically, physically. I do think that a lot of things a, that I was personally self-conscious about over time, I just don't care about anymore. So honestly, give it a year, give it two years, and then after the first year, if you're still not decided, give it another year. Then eventually you'll probably just stop thinking about it. Or a study will come out that's like, this is really dangerous now. And you're like, oh, I'm really glad I didn't do that.
Doree: Are there any inexpensive products or things that you tried that you would endorse?
Sable: Honestly, what really did get me into beauty was Korean beauty products, K beauty skincare, because they're very affordable and a lot of them are just very, they do work. I will give them that. That was the most instant gratifying experience I've had was trying. It is very much antithetical to a lot of what American skincare preaches. I grew up in the era of Nima.
Elise: Yeah,
Sable: Same. Yeah, clean and clear neu Gina, like sea breeze. It has to hurt. Yeah. Yeah. There was this idea that things had to hurt to work, which is so American, but a lot of what Korean skincare purports is hydration. Lots of light layers. And yes, it is really tedious to have all these steps. And I don't even think you need 10 steps. I really don't. But just incorporating little bits of hydration, you do notice a big difference.
Elise: Okay. Let's take a break and we will be right back.
Doree: One thing that you talk about in your book is how, because you mentioned when you were growing up how the media presented a very specific ideal of beauty and how that has been democratized over the last 10, 20 years. But it does seem like now with beauty influencers and social media, and you talked about this as well, that the look has gotten sort of flattened again. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, what you've just kind of observed in terms of those macro beauty trends.
Sable: Yeah. I do feel like when there was the proliferation of social media and the internet, beauty became global, which is like, and on the one hand it's really great, like wow, if I grew up seeing a lot more people who looked like me in positions of beauty and admiration, I probably wouldn't have felt like such a freak. But now it is almost like inclusivity is a little bit of a trap because you are included in beauty, but the more you're included, the more you are, it becomes compulsory to also participate in. So it's like, oh, we have 50 shades of foundation now, which means you too must have now you got to wear foundation. Exactly, exactly. And it's funny how a lot of what global beauty, the way that we've chosen to accept it is that we cherry pick features like ethnic features, water them down to remove it's original historical stigma and then kind of bland it out in that way, which I think is very creepy.
Elise: And I feel like it's very internet driven by filters, for example, because these filters make us, despite all our different looks that we bring to the filters themselves, give us the same arched eyebrows or the same high
Sable: Cheekbones. It's the same high cheekbones. It's like the very ossified facial features.
Elise: So in this larger context of influencer driven beauty culture, or where did you land on how we define prettiness for ourselves,
Sable: That's really hard to do because it's almost impossible to retroactively unlearn all of the things that we've absorbed as what is considered beautiful. Also because it's still being compounded in real time because you see very immediate rewards for beauty ideals. So it is difficult to separate yourself from that. But at the same time, I think it has diminishing returns because the more you invest in beauty ideals, one of the stigmas that still remains is ageism. So it's like if you invest in that, you're kind of investing in your own downfall. Diminishing marshal.
Elise: Exactly. Exactly. Utility.
Sable: So if you can remove yourself from that veer off of it, and it's never going to happen all at once, just little by little be like, I like this thing that's maybe considered a little weird or a little off the cuff, incorporate that. And when I started doing that, I realized that it becomes kind of a signifier or a communicator to other people who are your people. And when they're like, oh, hey, I really, I love the star stickers. I love embellishments or colorful mascara or stuff like that, when it's kind of a signer to other people to come closer together, which I think is really cool.
Doree: One thing that you wrote in your book that really stuck with me is you said influencer culture is the result of inclusivity capitalism, which kind of speaks to what you were just talking about, and I want to talk about that in relation to the power dynamics of traditional media because it does seem like now influencer culture is replicating those same power dynamics. And I'm just wondering what you think, is there an antidote to this? Can we get out of this situation that we've found ourselves in?
Sable: Oh my God, log off. I think that's the answer you need to log off, man. It's funny because now that inclusivity is pretty much table stakes to beauty participation, and we've championed transparency to the point that it's not really radical anymore to disclose all the procedures you've had done because it's everybody does it now. And the fact that people can make money off of not just the economic value of beautifying yourself, but also the content you create all the associated affiliate links from that. And then the fact that the more people promote this kind of transparency content, the more it again, introduces this pressure that everyone is doing this and then everybody else feels compelled to also do this because they think everybody else is doing it.
Elise: Yeah, it's like an arms race.
Sable: It is like an arms race of who can be the hottest.
Doree: And you brought up aging, which I feel like in the last few years has become such almost anti-Aging has become this dirty word, and Allure had this whole campaign saying, we're not using the term, and other people, other outlets, people and brands have said that, but then that term just gets, it's like they replace it with something
Sable: Else. That is a perfect example of just marketing jargon at work because I feel like we're more concerned with aging than ever. Younger people are now totally younger. Gen Z is very, yeah,
Elise: You have 20 year olds doing preventative Botox, whatever that means.
Sable: It's a lie. Preventative Botox is a scam. But nothing bums me out more when friends my age, I'm 38, and friends of mine who are in their thirties are like, well, it's probably time for me to get Botox. And I'm like, what? This isn't like a checkup. This isn't you getting your vitamin levels checked. It's not a colonoscopy. We voted the one yet. Listen, I just have one. But it just bums me out that they're like, okay, at a certain age, and then you start getting Botox like, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. You don't have to opt in. And truly, and part of me wonders too that the people who audibly vocalize that thought, I'm like, well, maybe that's what you've always wanted. And you think by saying it this way, you're kind of absolving yourself of the stigma of vanity. Maybe that's it. If you want to get the Botox, get the Botox, who cares. But the idea that you have to do it is what's a true bummer to me.
Elise: Okay. I know we've already asked you a bunch of heady questions, but before we open it up to the audience, we both wrote books about self. Right.
Sable: I loved your book, by the way,
Elise: Carlos. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And I loved yours, mutual appreciation society after you wrestled with the contradictions in beauty culture, so how it's both empowering and draining, how it can be both connective and competitive and kind of tear us apart, where did you ultimately land on how we can engage in beauty or beauty culture in a way that doesn't put us at odds with ourselves?
Sable: I think beauty is most potent in community. Anything you do that can bring you closer with people and connection, it's like a full body sigh of relief, I feel. Also, because when you start to talk to other people about the things that make you anxious about your appearance, and sometimes you find that other people share those feelings too. And then when you both are like, well, where did you learn this? Where did you learn this? And then you realize you can't remember where you learned it. You're like, wait, we don't have to feel this way if we don't subscribe to whatever, or whoever it was that seemed to put this in place in the first place.
Elise: I feel like that's the power in the podcast too. We have these aha moments.
Doree: And I was just going to say that really circles back nicely to what you were talking about in the very beginning about being in community with your friends at the Korean spa where you're fully totally stripped down to your essence. You're not hiding behind anything. So I really like that.
Sable: I think what's also great about that is, and this is maybe a little creepy to admit, but I mean, everyone's totally naked, and then you're like, wait, these people have those little chicken gits here and they have a little belly, and everyone's body is so, so different.
Elise: For sure.
Sable: No one's performing, no one's sucking in. They're just here to chill. And it's just such a huge relief to see the variety of body shapes and I mean, not stare, but just be aware. Just be aware. Just clock it away and then you're just like, oh my God, everyone's different. Not everything you see is just a snatched waistline on Instagram.
Elise: Yes, yes. Celebrating that difference. Amen.
Sable: Absolutely.
Elise: Alright, Sable Young. Thank you so much.
Sable: Thank you. Thank you.
Doree: Well, that was
Elise: Fun. So much fun. Thank you again to Sable. Thank you again to her publisher and to Village Well books in Culver City for hosting us.
Doree: Yeah, so great. So I promised a one bag update.
Elise: Yes.
Doree: Okay. So Elise blew my mind recently when she told me that she uses one carry-on for herself and her three children. I was just like, how is this even possible? I feel like I can barely get my stuff in one carry on, let alone four people's. Like what? But I was inspired to try to get mine and Henry's stuff into one bag, and I was not able to do this for a couple of reasons. One is because I have to bring rain coats because it's going to be raining. Henry wanted to bring his rain boots. I wasn't going to say no to his rain boots because, so there's some extra gear that I wasn't anticipating. This is
Elise: All reasonable.
Doree: And there were just a few other things that I was like, oh, he insists on traveling with his hatch light and noise machine, which is a little bulky. So there has to be room for that. And so there's just a few things that I was like, okay, this is not all going to fit in one bag. However, I do think that I was able to get it down to one suitcase and the Calak Luca travel, the Calak Luca duffle.
Elise: The Duffle's going to be your carry-on?
Doree: No, I'm going to do, I will carry the duffle on, but I will also have a backpack.
Elise: Okay, got it.
Doree: I will say this is the regular size. This is not the large size. This is the regular size. So it's not enormous. It does hold quite a bit, but it's not a enormous, I was able to fit three packing cubes in it.
Elise: Nice.
Doree: And a pair of the fake plastic bks from Target.
Elise: Okay. I have those.
Doree: And then I'm going to bring a backpack. So I'm going to put the Luca duffle. It has a travel sleeve, so I'm going to put it on the suitcase, carry my backpack. Henry also has a little backpack that he likes to bring with his little stuff, and that's going to be it. So I had been anticipating having to push two big suitcase, I mean two carry-on suitcases through the airport, plus a carry-on. So this is a substantial difference.
Elise: You reduced your load by one full suitcase then, if I'm hearing you correctly.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, I still am bringing a bag with clothes duffle. Yeah. It's not like I have one personal item and a suitcase, but the bag itself is much smaller and I think easier to shove in an
Elise: Overhead compartment. It's going to make you so much more nimble, though. I will warn you that some of the airlines are really cracking down on the whole carry-on and one personal item thing. So you might have to check one of the bags, right? If you have a backpack, a duffle, and the
Doree: Suitcase Henry gets a carry-on and a personal item also.
Elise: That's right. So oh, Henry's only carrying a backpack, so
Doree: Each of you have two. So Henry, let's say Henry has a suitcase and a backpack. I have the duffle and a backpack.
Elise: Yeah.
Doree: So there's not extra things. Perfect. So yeah, that was a long-winded update about my packing sitch. I also need to report, and we will link to this, that I found a tank dress that I
Elise: Found doors.
Doree: I was very fixated on getting a tank dress to wear on the plane. I don't really know why, but I just became fixated on this. But the ones I was seeing were either too low cut or the straps were too skinny, or they just had a myriad of problems. And then you were like, and tank dresses don't have pockets. And I was like, oh, they don't have pockets. That's true. And then on ye old Amazon Shoppy, as we used to say, I found a tank dress with pockets. I also had been like, I just want a cotton one and this one is not cotton. But then I got it and I was like, oh, it's so soft
Elise: And it has pockets
Doree: And it has pockets, and it just fits really nicely. It drapes really nicely. I got it in two colors. I think I'm only going to bring one your influence here. I was going to wear one and bring the other one, and then I was like, no, I'm just going to bring one.
Elise: You
Doree: Only need one. I only need one. Yeah, you can dress. That was exciting.
Elise: Dress it down.
Doree: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So this week, because I am traveling, I feel like I always have a similar intention when I'm traveling, which is to just sort of stay sane. This is also the first time that I'm taking a plane alone with Henry. It's only ever been Matt and me, and I think it will be.
Elise: He's so much older now too, right?
Doree: He is so much older. He is so much older. So I think it'll be okay. How about you? Did you foam roll?
Elise: I didn't bring my foam roll on my travels, and so I foam roll when I was home in the brief spurts of time or the brief hours that I was at home. But I still need to be more consistent about foam rolling, especially given my new intention for the week, which is go on Instagram sold me on some walking app to make me walk a certain number of minutes per day. I dunno, it's some sponsor ad that I fell for, so I'm going to try to walk
Doree: 40
Elise: Minutes a day every day for the next seven days. Wow.
Doree: Okay. That's exciting. Typically, I
Elise: Don't do that much walking. I have a pretty sedentary lifestyle, but I've done it for two days so far, and you can hold me accountable next week to see if I did the other days.
Doree: Are you just walking around your neighborhood?
Elise: Yeah, I live right along the Bayona Creek, so I have a little bit of a bike trail nearby, and so I usually just walk on that trail. I know that trail very well because I ran on it a lot during Covid, but now because of my knee issue, I can't really run as much as I used to. So I'm going to try walking.
Doree: That's exciting.
Elise: Yeah, I'm excited. We'll see how it goes, but it will be all the more important to be stretching and foam rolling. So
Doree: I'm going to
Elise: Combine my intentions now and see how that goes.
Doree: Okay. I'm excited for you listeners. Thank you so much. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Elise Hugh, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager. Special thanks to our engineer for the live taping, Connor, Lynn, Ruth, and our network partner is Acast.
Elise: Thank you.
Doree: Bye.
*Transcripts are AI Generated.