Episode 290: I'm Enough with Laci Mosley
When people don’t feel judged they will tell you everything.
- Laci Mosley
Kate and Doree consider the times they may (or may not?) have been scammed before chatting with the Scam Goddess herself, Laci Mosley. They go deep into how to tell the difference between wellness and a scam, who and what makes a good scammer, the importance of building community, and how to best avoid being duped.
Photo Credit: Emily Jones
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts.
Doree: We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: It's funny because in the room next to me, my husband is doing the thing he does to take care of himself, which is play piano.
Doree: That's so funny because my husband, I can hear him playing guitar right now.
Kate: Oh, interesting. They're both just strumming and tapping away.
Doree: They both just, yep.
Kate: They're just taking care of themselves with their instruments,
Doree: Taking care of themselves. That sounds dirty, but Yes.
Kate: Oh yeah. It does sound dirty. Taking care of themselves with their instruments. I can just hear him. So if you hear somebody tickling the ivory in the background, just know it is my husband practicing a little self-care.
Doree: I love that though.
Kate: I do too. I like listening to him play. And my kids also play, they're both working on Taylor Swift songs. He is not. Yes. Yeah, that's so cool. So I'll just hear some champagne problems going over and over and over again.
Doree: Oh My God, that's amazing.
Kate: In the room next to me. Yeah, they're quite good. Taylor sounds good on the piano.
Doree: I love that. Kate, we are talking to Lacey Mosley today.
Kate: Oh my gosh. Okay. So we literally just finished talking to her.
Doree: We did
Kate: Prior to recording this, and she tapped on something that really resonated with me.
Doree: I want to hear it. And then I also have a question for you.
Kate: Okay. For me, it was just connection of shame and the through line and the way shame comes up for us. I was really appreciated that she brought it up initially. And then it was just interesting to kind of think about the idea of wellness and self-care and scams and being scammed through the lens of the way shame comes into play for all these things. I just thought it was really interesting.
Doree: It was interesting.
Kate: Your question, Doree.
Doree: My question was, have you ever been scammed?
Kate: I've been robbed many times.
Doree: Many times.
Kate: Yeah. I've been robbed quite a few times. I mean, my story of my birth story, Right?
Doree: Yes. Oh God.
Kate: Yeah. That's a pretty harrowing one. I was robbed at the hospital while I was getting an emergency c-section. I'm trying to think if I've ever been scammed. I don't know that I have, although, but you've put me on the spot. It's possible we're going to hang up and I'm going to remember the world's greatest scam that was pulled on me, but I don't think I, have you ever been scammed?
Doree: I don't know. I don't think so. No. My only, my closest thing to really being scammed is in college I had thrown out an old checkbook of an account that I had closed and someone stole it. And this was in the nineties, so you could easily write a check and they wouldn't really know that it was, oh,
Kate: That's a nightmare.
Doree: And it was a whole thing. Now, there was no money in the account because I think what had happened was I hadn't actually closed it, but I just didn't have any money in it, or I wasn't using it, so I didn't actually lose any money, but it was like a whole fucking thing.
Kate: Oh, that's a real pain in the ass.
Doree: It was a real pain in the ass. I think they caught them because they weren't, it was kind of easy. They left quite a paper trail,
Kate: literally.
Doree: But no, I don't think I've ever been scammed
Kate: Catfished.
Doree: No. But one thing that we didn't touch on with her, and then we can get to the interview, but I do feel like it is a little there, but for the grace of God go, I
Kate: Totally,
Doree: You know what I mean? I feel like part of it is just luck that I haven't been scammed
Kate: A hundred percent because I can feel myself falling for things left and right. it happens all the time.
Doree: And I like to think that I'm kind of a skeptical person, but I think the brilliance of some scammers is that they're able to exploit your weaknesses. And when they sense any weakness, they will be able to exploit it. So that's the scary thing to me. Yeah. I don't know. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Kate: Well, I think she also really made that point that so many times we don't hear about people being scammed because they're ashamed that it happened to them. And we're also made to feel like you should be ashamed because you should have known or you should have caught it. And that is really not the case.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Okay. Well, Doree, why don't we introduce our guest today?
Doree: Let's do that
Kate: Because we're already inspired by our conversation today. We are talking to Lacey Mosley. Lacey has been seen on TV in shows such as a Black Lady sketch show, I Carly Lopez versus Lopez. She is improv and sketch comedian at the Upright Citizens Brigade. She's a standup comedian. She's been on, wait, wait, don't tell me on NPR. And of course she is the host of Scam Goddess, one of, dare I say, the greatest podcasts. It's so freaking funny.
Doree: It's really great. It was truly a dream to have her on the show.
Kate: She is also the author of a book called Scammer because she is really, dare I say, an expert when it comes to scams. So without further ado, here's Laci. Laci. Hello. We're so glad you're here because this is a podcast about self-care and boy does that like to veer into scam territory a lot of the time. So I feel like we've got a lot of ground to cover. But before we dig in, could you share with us what you consider a self-care practice currently in your own life? Do you have something that resonates with you in terms of what you consider self-care?
Laci: Now, Kate, I'm a comedian. Am I? To be serious,
Kate: You must answer so seriously. No, you may run the gamut. Truly,
Laci: I going to be drinking wine in the bathtub that count the videos of soldiers coming home. They can be romantic. No, but seriously, seriously. I think the biggest self-care practice that I've been doing is each day I'm really hard on myself. I have a tough relationship with perfectionism and just shame, toxic shame. And so I've been doing this daily thing where just, and it's honestly just thoughts. It's just like, what did you do today that was exciting or good? Or how did you take care of yourself? And I make sure that it's not about work. So it's not about something I sold or something I made or anything like that. It's like, oh, I made my bed today, or I watered my plants. My plants are still green. It's like I try to give myself little pats on the back for things that aren't capitalistic motivated and just realize that I've been in therapy for three years. It wasn't working. And then I had a breakthrough and it was real cute. And I was like, oh, damn. Okay, Michelle, something.
Kate: It happens.
Laci: And then what I didn't realize about breakthroughs is for some reason in life, as soon as you're like, I have healthy boundaries now, then the universe is like, let's test it.
Kate: Oh my God.
Laci: Immediately. So I had to learn to give myself little rewards for just being alive and taking care of me. So that's something I've been doing to keep myself healthy. So sometimes it's like, oh girl, you was really drinking that water. Wow. It can be small. Or maybe it's something really big. I went to my boxing class at 7:00 AM I don't do things in the morning. That's terrible.
Kate: You just said something that sent chills down my spine, which is the shame, the self-inflicted shame that comes with these certain standards we hold ourselves to. Perfectionism is certainly, I understand, but I feel like we don't often talk about shame as a part of those processes a lot. And it's really, I just appreciate you even mentioning it and being open about it because I don't think it's something we consider other people going through. I would've never been like, oh, certainly Laci, that person I listened to is experiencing shame
Laci: All the time,
Kate: All the time.
Laci: And I really had to start coaching myself out of it. My mom gave me a great phrase that I still tell myself all the time, which is, we're from Texas. Ain't nobody thinking about you. And what she meant by that was, as much as you think about other people and their behaviors and your interactions with them is exactly how much they're thinking about you. And unless I'm in love with somebody, I'm not really thinking about anybody that much. But if I go to a party or any, I'm an introverted extrovert, so if I go and see a lot of people, then I need to take three days to be alone because I'm just like, oh my God, were those conversations weird? Was I normal? Did people like me? Everyone hates me. So it was starting to recoach myself, and I treat myself, I treat my friends now because I'm like, why are you being so mean to you? You would never treat your friends like this. So I got to be my friend.
Doree: I see this is very relatable,
Kate: and I imagine too as a standup performer that there's an expectation that perhaps in a party or in a public situation that people put on you that you are going to be on or that you're going to be a certain way. I don't know that that kind of navigating people's public perceptions and expectations of you with who your authentic self is, sounds challenging.
Laci: It is. And then I realized when I would hang around more performers and I would kind of still be on, it kind of would turn some people off and not in a bad way. They weren't doing I just because I'm, I'm hyper aware, a change in your face. I don't notice it. And I'm like, oh my God, they hate me now. But I've been trying to go places and ask genuine questions to people and just be like, what's making you happy right now? Or what's going on? And then listen and really not listen to respond, which is hard for me because I podcast for so long. But listen, and I remember after practicing this and talking about in therapy, I went to a birthday party and talked to a lot of different people and just heard about their lives and what was going on. And somebody hit me up the next day and was like, that was such a wonderful conversation that we had someone I've known for years and was like, that was such a wonderful conversation that we had. You really made me realize I was really excited about this thing going on in my life. And I was like, yo, that's dope. So I'm enough. And I always think I have to perform for my cookie, but just breathing and existing is starting to be enough.
Kate: I love that. I also love just the actual being thoughtful in our interactions, because I think we as podcasters too, we're always like, we're listening because we have to respond and think of the next thing to say. And just listening as a practice of really hearing is, I don't know. I feel very rusty coming out of the last many years of covid.
Laci: Same. Also Kate, your eyelashes are distracting me. They're really nice. They're really good.
Doree: I want them for me eyelashes, can I have some
Kate: thank you for Yes. I'll just yank them off. In a stress related, you know what it is, whatever mix of genetics that hit right with my eyelashes, you know how sometimes it hits and other times it's hitting wrong. This is where,
Doree: I mean, not to sound weird, but your daughters also have amazing eyelashes.
Kate: They do. They have people stop them on the street. It's wild. It's also weird because women will be like, oh, I would kill for your lashes to my kids when they were five. And so they were learning these weird beauty standards that they were all going to learn about. I don't know. It was very weird. But yeah, we've got good lashes going on over here. I do not know how to put on fake lashes. Let's just,
Laci: You don't need them. Why would you ever need to know how to do that?
Kate: I don't. Yes, it's been a gift. It would be rough me figuring that out. Thank you. Thank you, Laci. That's so nice of you. Can we talk about self-care and wellness and scams?
Laci: Yes, absolutely.
Kate: How do you navigate the difference? And do you ever find yourself in a moment where you're like, this is self-care, I'm taking care of myself, and then you're like, oh, wait, no, I'm participating in a scam.
Laci: The thing about self-care that makes it so beautiful for scams is that there's no tangible ROI. There's no tangible return on investment other than how you feel and selling a vibe. That's what I do on this podcast. We slinging vibes out here. Okay, you got a vibe, two vibes for you, three for you on Tuesday. There's no way to equate it. And it's necessary in the human experience because everything can't be tangible. We're here. We don't know where we're going after. We're just trying to make it every day. So I always say, if it makes you feel good, if you walk away from something and you feel better and you don't feel like you've been cheated, then it's not a scam. If you walk away, you feel like you've been decepted or cheated, then it is a scam. So that is why wellness care is so amazing, because you can just tell people, put this egg in your coochie and you're going to see God. And maybe they do, maybe somebody did. Maybe the yoni worked for somebody. But at the same time, the scam kind of comes into play when you start to guarantee an experience. So when you're saying, do this, and then it'll equate to this, that to me is where it gets scammy. But I've had an experience where I did a sea salt float, and I think I'm going to go back, but you go to this place, and I did it with my friend Courtney. I wanted to have a, well this weekend before I started another big job. And so we went Santa Monica or maybe Malibu, actually Malibu, and we went to this place where you go into a room, they take you to a room, it's your own room, and there's a shower in there, and then there is a private tub that's like an egg, and it has like 8,000 pounds of salt in it. So when you get in it, you float. And so we wanted to do the sensory deprivation, just see is it going to make us better or well or whatever. And child. So the experience itself loved the actual experience that we did hate it. So they tell you not to shave your legs because it's salt. You're just going to be in salt, right? So you can't have any open wounds. So I was like, I didn't shave my legs. I got in the shower bathed, and I get in the sea salt, and you close the egg door, and then there's little colored lights in there. But the whole point is that at some point you're supposed to relax enough that you turn off the lights and you turn off the sound and you're just floating in the dark. But I couldn't just hop the dark. That was two zero to a hundred for me. But I got in, this is such an overshare, but I don't even care. I got in, I did all the protocols, so I guess I had had a particularly rough bowel movement. And so my booty hole was burning for first 10 minutes.
Kate: Oh no, it's pounds of Epsom salt. That's not on you or your back.
Doree: Oh no. Oh,
Kate: Just clenching. Floating and clenching floating. But then were you able to relax, literally relax into it?
Doree: Did it stop?
Laci: Yeah, it did stop. It did.
Kate: It was like, okay,
Laci: Right. It was like we're sanitized now. I dunno. Maybe
Kate: Still clean.
Laci: And I did shower before, so it stopped. And then I slowly, for me, sound was easier to turn off than light. So I turned off the sound first and turned it down, turned it down, turn it down. You can do it in the tank. And then I turned off the lights, and then I was just floating in the dark. And it's not that big of a thing, but once you turn off the sound and the lights, you start to think you're Etsy. I was like, girl, this is the Pacific. Where are the walls? And every now and then I would have to touch a wall just so my anxiety wasn't like what? But it made me feel like, okay, well I know I'm going to die one day and maybe that's okay. Wow. And maybe I don't have to be worried about what is coming or what's after. I can just be here and now. And then afterwards you get out, you're all salty and wet, you, you'll shower again. And then you go to this little dark room and they have a communal tea room where they give you tea and you sit around on pillows on the floor. Which I mean, is it wellness? If you're not sitting on the floor, you got to be on the floor
Kate: You're always on the floor. That is fair.
Laci: There's other strangers that you don't know. I came with a friend, but there was other people there talking about their experiences. Some tanks are a free floating larger tank where you can float with other random people.
Doree: Whoa,
Kate: No,
Laci: I don't want to do that.
Kate: Oh no,
Laci: I dunno. Y'all like that? Oh my God.
Kate: No, no, no. That feels very personal if you bump into each. Okay. Yeah. I literally have chills thinking about that. Okay. But
Laci: We talked about our experience over our tea that we held in the cups of our hands. So wellness. And I think that people could think that's a scam. It's just like they were like, let's fill a kiddie pool with salt and then, or make people pay a lot of money to sit in the dark in salt water and have their booty burn. But I walked away feeling something so it didn't feel like a scam.
Kate: No, it doesn't. I mean, this is kind of the magic of certain things. If it does something for you, then like you said, is it a scam? I don't know. I mean also the sensory deprivation and being alone in the dark. I feel like without looking at my phone would be, that alone is a scary thought that would've challenged me. Aside from floating
Laci: Leaving your phone, Kate.
Kate: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to think about. I mean, I've talked a lot at length on the podcast about just phone anxiety, but you're really, we're so used to being stimulated all the time that to cut all of that off must have, it's interesting that it led you to kind of think about what's after life and have that kind of feeling and almost sounds like peace.
Laci: It was. And you also have to surrender. And I think that was the thing that as someone who likes to be in control, which is a part of toxic shame where you try to control situations or you try to make people happy or you try to stay in people's, you know what I mean? It's like all that, which I didn't even know was related to shame, but it's like I don't want people to be mad at me. So it's like to be in a situation where I'm fully not in control and then just release myself to that, I was like this, I love this. But the place that I went to, they didn't promise any results. They just said, come in here to hop into Sea Salt and float around. They didn't say that it was going to change my life. They didn't say that it was going to do anything for me. And I think that's the difference between where wellness is a scam or wellness is a fun little Diddy. It's like when you get a massage, I've had scam massages and I've had good massages, but at the end of the day, it's still you walking into a room and letting a stranger rub on your naked and body with some oils. What are we doing?
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: There's also, like you mentioned, the capitalistic element to all of it. We got an email to our inbox that was about menopause wellness and how menopause is going to be this billion dollar industry. And it was very jarring to me as a 44-year-old person who feels like they're beginning menopause because it was like, oh, this is just another thing people are looking to monetize in order to make a buck off of our actual needs. And it just sent me down a rage spiral. But there is this element, I mean, capitalism goes hand in hand so much with it that it can kind of be hard to separate. I don't know. I don't even know where I'm going with this, but separate the value of it with your own values, I guess.
Laci: No, I see exactly where you're going. And I mean, that's the thing about valuation. Everything is worth what we say it's worth the dollar's worth what we say we think the value is. The pound diamonds, there's so many of them shiny rocks on the planet, and they just release them slowly to try to keep their value up. At the end of the day, it's just a shiny rock that you're putting on your hand. And we decided that it's worth something. So it's always about what you put onto it. I mean, I go to House of Intuition. I love to go over there and get a candle, honey, my birthday, I'll put a candle in a bowl of water because I love potentially burning down my home. And you're supposed to let it burn for 24 hours and say your intentions into it
Kate: In the water. You put the candle in the water, let it burn for 24 hours. Okay, I like this.
Laci: You put the candle in the water. I have one right here. You put the candle in the water. Wait, I'm going to grab it. I want you to see it. So this is my favorite gift. I do this for other people's birthdays and I think they've caught on, so now they're doing it for me. I haven't even opened these yet. But this is House of Intuition,
Kate: Which is here in LA.
Laci: Yes. And they literally have one on Melrose, and there's one that's in Silver Lake that's in a house, but they sell these birthday boxes. I think they're the best gifts because if you're witchy, or even if you're not, it's a podcast. So now you're going to hear me unwrapping something. Hold on.
Kate: It's like a smr.
Laci: So creativity.
Kate: Oh, I like this.
Laci: So you burn these candles, and at the very end of the burning in here somewhere, there is a crystal. So you're supposed to burn them for 24 or three days, I think. Actually, you're supposed to say your intentions over them at night, keep it burning, possibly burning your home down.
Kate: I mean, yes. And that is a possibility.
Laci: You'll get a cute little rock. And I keep all the little rocks,
Kate: And you get these for yourself for every birthday.
Laci: So people started getting them for me because I get people astrology boxes for their birthdays now. So they'll have the S box, the cancer box, the Taurus Box. I like to get them for people because it's a fun little birthday gift. And there's some tarot cards in there if you're witchy, if you're not. I just think whatever works, works. If you like it and you love it, do it.
Kate: Do it. What is your astrological sign, just out of curiosity?
Laci: I'll give you my four. I'm a cancer rising. No, a cancer, sun. Cancer. Sun, Libra Rising, Aries Moon and Leo Vitus. It's all over the place.
Kate: Oh, Interesting. But that's a little bit of fire, right, with the Aries and the Leo.
Laci: And that's what people see, and they're like, you're a cancer. And I'm like, yeah, get to know me. We'll cry a lot. I love to cry. Kidding in girl. I love them crying. You're a cancer too.
Kate: Yes, cancer. Aquarius Moon, Aquarius Rising. So it's a lot of sensitive people talking a lot. Yeah. And Doree's like Major Taurus energy.
Laci: Oh, and Doree, you are my people too. I love a Taurus. Very grounded.
Doree: Yes, we're very grounded people. But you also like luxury. We also, we enjoy the finer things.
Laci: Oh Yeah, y'all do. Y'all definitely do. Doree, I see this cabinet with your books behind you. It's very fancy.
Doree: Thank you. It's from Ikea.
Laci: It's a srk and fork. It looked good.
Doree: Thank you. I built it myself, Laci. It was a pandemic thing. I was like, I need shelves
Laci: Like building stuff.
Doree: Yeah. What do you think makes a good scammer as opposed to just a scam, but a person who is a scammer is a sign of a successful Scammer.
Laci: So a successful scammer is definitely someone who, honestly, this is why I think Geminis are so good at scams. It's someone who's a good listener. Doree, I think you would be an excellent scammer. You're such a great listener. I can already tell You're so engaged and you make me feel very seen and heard. I've been watching your face while I talk.
Kate: Hey, Doree,
Laci: when you're a good listener, my dad taught me this. He's a Gemini. People will tell you everything you want to know. If you just shut your mouth, ask some follow up questions, like, yeah, yeah, look at them. Doree, I'm give you social security number. Oh my God.
Doree: Listen, I just want to tell you about this. I wasn't going to tell you, but there's this really amazing opportunity that I want you to know about.
Laci: Hold on. Lemme get my cards. Lemme get my cards out right now. So which one do you need?
Doree: Give them all the red one. The red one. Just pass it over here.
Laci: Don't even tell me what it's for. I know we about to be rich.
Doree: Well, it's not going to be immediate.
Kate: Got to invest thousands of dollars and then
Laci: I'll wait. But no, yeah, it's like listening. And it's also mirroring when you meet people and you can mirror.
Kate: So a Sociopath,
Doree: You saying, I'm a sociopath.
Laci: I do. I do this too, Doree, I do this too. So I love scams. I'm not putting you down like that. You can be an ethical scammer. You got to scam up,
Kate: Scam up
Laci: We're scamming back. We're not scamming down, we're not punching down. But it's like being a good listener, being someone who can mirror people's energy and behavior. And also being charismatic, having that little riz, ooh, it makes people feel good. And so you can scam someone for a long period of time out of a lot of money if you are a good scammer who makes them feel seen and heard and loved. And that's why romance fraud is the scams that I hate the most because everyone has a need and scammers are exploiting your needs and your wants. So everyone needs to be loved and everyone needs community. And so scammers doing that. It always hurts me. I'm just like, man, these people just want love. That's what we all want. And rugged individualism in America has gone rampant. We do need community. We do need love.
I'll never be the person who's like, I'll cut you off, or I don't care about anybody. No, I care. I care a lot. I'm fine with that. And I think we all should be fine with saying that. So yeah, I think those are the elements that make a scammer very affable and usually can create a long career path. Because if you know how to scam people in a way that's like, oops, I robbed you again and you can stay out of jail. It's just like, oh my God, I didn't know when You'all bought my products. Y'all wanted me to mail them to you. I got overwhelmed. You can stay out of jail.
Kate: The Caroline Calloway
Laci: And we was beef.
Kate: I remember. You make such a good point though, because I think sometimes I think when I imagine manipulation, it doesn't involve listening involves someone telling me what to do, but it's almost like in the sitting back and kind of making yourself available in that way, it kind of allows for the trust to build, which is what you need for the scam to unfold.
Laci: And the more people talk, the more they will tell you. And I am like you, Kate. I'm a talker. I'll be chatting. And I learned from my dad. I was like, oh, I need to close my mouth and listen more because people will tell you everything you need to know if you just listen.
Doree: I'm also sensing a lot of similarities from what you're describing with therapists and with journalists who also need to be good listeners. And I have noticed that a lot of the most successful journalists, especially people who write profiles, they also are good at mirroring and they're kind of scammers in a way because getting their subjects to open up to them and trust them. And sometimes they're not always trustworthy.
Laci: No, they're making you feel comfortable by mirroring your sensibility. I've had people tell me about all types of crimes and things that they've done just because I was on board. I was like, oh yeah, what else? And losing the judgment from it. When people don't feel judged, oh, then they will really tell you everything. And my favorite journalist thing that I've taken, because recently we started interviewing people. We had Sam Lipman Stern on who did telemarketers, and that was the first time I was so nervous that we had a person who was a part of a scam on the show. So it's like, I don't want to punch down because he didn't know he was a part of a scam. But at the same time, I wanted to get as much information as possible. But I learned from journalists, you always ask that question at the end that's just like, is there anything else you want to share? Anything on your heart, anything? Just keep listening and mirroring and making people feel comfortable and making them not feel judged. We all want to be seen, and it's just such an easy human tactic. That's part of the reason that I really enjoy scams is that it is this kind of relationship that you build with people and then they open up to you. But on the wellness front, that's why I think it gets tricky because when people are seeking, just like in romance scams, which I hate, people are seeking wellness and healing and then you're trying to capitalize on that and take from them. I just feel like that's the worst kind of harm because a lot of us are broken. All of our parents did the best they could. They or maybe they didn't. Some of them didn't. My mom did, my dad did. I have four parents. I have a stepmom and a stepdaddy and a mom and a dad, and they all love me and are doing great, but everyone's not that lucky. And that's a privilege that no one really talks about is the privilege of having good parents because if you didn't have that, it was down bad from the jump. We talk about money, privilege, but we don't ever talk about parentage. Did your parents teach you things? My parents taught me financial literacy. My parents made me study outside of school. Different things that they weren't teaching me. Having the parents is an advantage.
Doree: That's such a good point. You never hear people talk about that.
Kate: I've gotten that kind of feedback because I wrote about my mom dying and my mom, I had, I have great parents and my dad's still alive. And honestly, it was a real blind spot for me that folks could go through grief and loss, but they're grieving somebody that they had an extremely fraught relationship with or wasn't a great parent. I was kind of just completely oblivious because of that privilege. I think you make a good point,
Laci: And I think we're very blessed. I could tell you had great parents, Kate, you have the energy of someone who had good parents.
Kate: I also take ADD meds that really psych me up too and hit a lot of coffee.
Laci: I do too. We're the same
Doree: Laci. So I mean, it does sound like scammers are especially good at sniffing out people who in some aspect of their lives are desperate. The romance scammer is sensing that someone is desperate for love and connection. Someone might be desperate for money, desperate for stat, whatever. Let's say if we find ourselves in a situation where we feel desperate, how can we avoid becoming duped by scammers?
Laci: So there's always two things that I say. When you see something or feel something that it seems to be too good to be true, but you might be on board with it because of your needs, you should always assess your needs. And what I mean by that is the desperation. We call it the depo meter. I'm an actor. Have I gone down some back alleys where they were like, you could have a job. Or I'm like, oh, I could be in somebody's trunk after this, but it's like, I got to go because I want a career. I was desperate. But I always say that you have to assess your level of want when something feels a little too good to be true. And that might be sitting with yourself, and I don't even say sitting with yourself, I say it out loud or write it down. So if someone's like, I'm going to send you $5,000 to be my assistant, you just need to send me 2,500 back. When you get the eCheck, when you say it out loud, it sounds wild.
Doree: Right? Right, right.
Laci: And I like to give that option first because if you're alone, just say it out loud. It's going to sound wild to you. You're going to hear it. Just say it out loud, read it out loud. I promise you. Because your brain will process things, especially if you're reading an email or something online, and you might skip over stuff that doesn't really interest what your needs are. Just like with people, if you're dating somebody and they're like, we went on a first date and then you slept over and now your toothbrushes in my bathroom. That's weird. We just met. And it's like, oh, you really like me? That's why your toothbrush is here. And it's like, no, they might be a homosexual and they're just trying to live with you in exchange for sexuals. So say it out loud. Wow, this person I just met a week ago has their toothbrush in my home. And they'll hear it. And then also, if you have the privilege of community, which I hope we all start to build community again, which means that that rugged individualism shit has got to go out. Look, you can choose you all the time. You can say like, oh, I'm putting me first. But at the end of the day, if you're not willing to show up for your friends and family, they're not going to show up for you. So you have to be in the community as well. But I digress. So the other thing is call a friend. Just tell a friend what's going on. Hey girl, I just met this man online. He's Bruno Mars, and he said he need $3,500 so that he could keep his tour going. Just say it to someone else. And they were like, girl, Bruno Mars shouldn't need money from you. That's a real scam to happen. Bruno Mar need money from you.
Doree: Oh, no, no.
Laci: Yes.
Doree: But you have to be open to receiving that. I feel like a lot of times people who are in the middle of a scam, they don't want to hear it.
Laci: I'm going to bring it back to shame. One of the things that has really freed me from shame is I talk about scams all the time. I still get scammed. And I think that a lot of times people think if you've been scammed or duped, or even if you're in the middle of being duped, that if someone points out some irregularities to you that they're saying that you're stupid because why didn't you catch it yourself? And scammers rely on shame. They rely on you thinking that you're smart. It's the reason why when rich people get scammed, a lot of times you don't hear about it. Because in their circles, they don't want people to know that they got duped. So they'll let the person who stole a hundred thousand dollars for them for some Ponzi scheme get away with it because they don't want so interesting, stupid to other people. And the same thing happens with everyone. No one wants to feel dumb. But my thing is, the smartest you can ever be is when you receive new information, you move accordingly. This is information I didn't have before. Now I have it, and now I'm going to proceed accordingly. And I think that's actually extremely intelligent, and we have to empower ourselves to receive new information and be like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. And now that I do fuck that, it's okay. I think that's the smartest person out there. But when you, that's the thing about shame, and that's the thing about how we've been conditioned to operate is if you don't know something, you're wrong. If someone dunks on you, you're stupid when it's like no one knows everything, and I'm comfortable with that. But that's the thing is when I think people listening to y'all want to be well and want to be doing things that take care of themselves. So I think your audience will definitely understand this, but when it comes to other people, it is hard to convince somebody that they're making a wrong decision.
Kate: And also I think the shame of admitting being wrong is so great. Or like you said, looking stupid that you'll hold on sometimes longer than you really want to.
Laci: Scammers love that
Kate: just out of that fear, right? I mean, I can speak to that,
Laci: Lets rebrand it. I don't say that I'm wrong, I just say that, oh, I just learned something new and that changed my opinion. I don't have to be, I don't know everything, so how could I be right all the time? But when I learn new information, I change my opinion based on that information. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. It doesn't mean I'm dumb, doesn't mean I'm a loser. It just means that I'm actually a winner. Because when I learn things, I act accordingly.
Kate: I love that. That is a very powerful reframe and way of looking at it. And I do think shame is such a, I mean, we haven't talked about shame in a while, but it really is such a driver for so much of how we choose to act and live. It never goes away.
Laci: No, that's the other thing they don't tell you about the wellness shit is like there's no fixed, you don't ever get to a point where you're fixed. I joke about this in my book, but it's like if you're lucky enough to live long enough to accumulate all the wisdom that you need in life, then you die.
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: You're done.
Doree: You're always going to be learning. And there's always going to be new things that will us if we're lucky enough to be on this planet. So I haven't let go of the shame fully. It pops up. My brain starts talking to me and punishing me all the time, but I tell that bitch to shut up. I'm like, this is my friend. Stop talking to her like that. But it's not a linear thing. There's no fix. You're not going to get to a place where you're like, everything is fine now. Just in therapy. When I was like, oh yeah, I got boundaries. And life was like, let's do it. Let's see them.
Maybe you got the boundaries you were able to recognize. You know what I mean? Because if you hadn't, then you would've just gone on with your life.
Laci: But they're still not great. I mean, I did the big thing that I needed to do. I have to be as vague as possible about this, but there was something familial related with money, and I'm very like, I was giving away my money. I just felt like I didn't deserve it. I don't know why. And my canoe accountants were like, bitch, whatcha doing? You need to respect yourself. I was like, okay. And so there came a situation that it was going to be something that would change my life in a huge way. And I had to say no. And my therapist was like, I never tell you what to do. I've been with you for three years. I've never told you what to do ever. I'm telling you, you have to say no to this. And I had a panic attack that was so bad that did you know that this could happen? My fingers locked up.
Kate: Oh god.
Doree: Oh my God.
Kate: That's terrifying.
Laci: If you're anaerobic and you're not breathing, your muscles can start to clench. So I thought I was doing all the things I got in the shower to take a cold shower, and then my hands started to lock up in the shower, and then I was like, oh, I got to call nine one.
Doree: Oh my God,
Laci: I'm trying to punch nine one on my phone. That does not work. I could not pry my fingers apart. Oh my God. So because I have community where I live, I literally crawled out to my balcony and I just started yelling help. And all my neighbors came and oh God, all my neighbors came and took care of me. And they called the ambulance and they came and they were like, okay. It was a panic attack. I was like, I've had those before though. This was different. I ain't never had the muscles start to lock up. I thought I was dying. And they're like, that can happen. And I was like, oh, okay. Wow. But all of this to say, I crossed that boundary and thought like, oh, I'm done with this. But then that came back up again and I didn't act the same way I did the thing I wasn't supposed to do. So it's like it's not linear. You might go back and do the thing you not supposed to do. I didn't do the big thing I wasn't supposed to do, but I had set a boundary and then I crossed my own boundary by them asking for something and I gave it to them. So nothing's linear. And shame is like everyone has just tricked us into thinking that once you have success, everything is good. It's like life is going to life and things are going to change, and they're up, down all around.
Kate: Life is going to life. Okay, well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Laci. We like to ask our guests at the end of our interview if they have a skincare routine. If so, what is it? And if they have any products that they love so much, they want to share what they are. So I'm going to pose that question to you as we wrap things up. Do you have any skincare routine or what you consider a skincare routine?
Laci: I do. So I alternate between days. So I use face, I think that's what it's called, the brand face. They have a brown sugar scrub that I have in my shower that I wash my face with. And then I'll alternate with the, is it Philip Peter Thomas Ross? Who is Peter?
Kate: Yes. Peter Thomas Ross. Peter Thomas Ross.
Laci: I'll alternate with that face wash so that I'm not exfoliating every single day. But then I also, I love Tatcha. In the morning, I'll use the water cream, and at night I use their night cream. That's like lavender as a moisturizer. But I also will alternate between using a, they say you're supposed to use an exfoliator, like a, oh, what is it called? The one, you know what I'm talking about that it's like on a pad and you rub it on your face?
Kate: Oh, yes. Oh yes.
Doree: Like a glycolic it.
Kate: Yes, it's a
Laci: Like a glycolic acid li pad. I'll use those. I get those from Peter as well. Then alternating days, the other day, I'll use a retinol oil that I get from Elephant. It's got a pink top and it's a little oil dropper. I'll put that on my face and on my neck and on my hands. And also, I think there's a scam in face beauty stuff where people, especially celebrities like to act like they don't get work done. It's not them creams. Jayla, let's be serious. Okay.
Kate: The olive oil cream. Yeah. Okay.
Laci: That's going to make me look like Jayla. Let's all be for real. Let's all be for real. One second. Okay. But I recently, so sometimes I'll get Botox at the top of my forehead, but I can't do anything too low. Luckily, my practitioner is an actual nurse who quit nursing during Covid because it was too stressful.
Kate: Oh gosh. I bet.
Laci: So She now just does this at the med spa, but she was like, we can't go below this line because you need to be able to move your eyebrows and acting and stuff like that. So it's just like a clean up top a little bit. And then some for crow's feet. I know I'm black and black, don't crack. But I was like, how much can we make it not crack? I want to look like a baby. So the only other thing that I do is under my eyes, I would get a little Juvederm filler just to, because in my family, we start to sink down. So once a year I would get it filled. And last Friday I went and I was just like, I don't normally come back this early, but it's so dark. And she was like, girl, I've been telling you we need to take some of your blood out, spin it, and then we'll take a cannula through your cheeks and inject the blood under your eyes so that it starts to rejuvenate the cells and the color. So I just did that on Friday.
Kate: Whoa.
Laci: And I'm gagged. I don't have concealer on right now.
Kate: I mean, listen.
Laci: And I used to be, I was giving vampire honey. It was
Doree: Is that PRP?
Kate: It's amazing.
Laci: Yeah. PRP.
Doree: Okay.
Laci: It works. So if you can afford that, it works. Y'all skincare? Yes, do all the skin cares. But also PRP is fire. I was like, Ooh, Anna. I looked at myself, I was like, oh, damn, I look real good.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: I mean you do
Kate: you do wow.
Laci: I don't scam people by being like, oh, it's all creams and care. I'm like, no. I'll tell you what I actually surgically did to my face too. I mean, it's needles, but still.
Kate: Yeah, but you make a good point too, is there's so many, I mean, celebrity skin, hair is its own scam conversation, but the kind of perpetuated idea that this is all I do, me Neutrogena spokesperson, and it's like
Laci: They wear eyelashes in the mascara commercials. Can we be serious?
Kate: Yes.
Laci: You told me I was going to put the on and it was going to look like this. You got all that.
Kate: I didn't know until a friend of mine who is an actor on a TV show picked me up once, and there were just chunks of hair extensions in the backseat of her car because she would rip them out after shooting. And I didn't know people on TV were wearing fake hair. That's how naive I am as a human, that's lash.
Laci: You were like, I just have these lashes. I have great hair.
Kate: My lashes are so great that everything, I assume everybody is just the same. But yes, literally everything is a scam ultimately when we come down to it.
Laci: But I think it's fun to be honest about it. And I think that there's no shame in being scammed. And I get scammed all the time. It's what it is. I went as the general for Halloween, and then I ended up on TNT on inside TNT, the Shaq show, I guess the inside NBA. So now I just did a free ad for the fucking general.
Doree: Oh my God.
Kate: Oh, that's my husband's favorite show.
Laci: Oh, so your husband probably saw you before the next game.
Kate: I'm going to find out. I'm going to ask when I get done here, want to
Laci: Good rating, get online, I'm going to scare me off. I lost part of my eyebrow for that costume.
Kate: You know, whatever it takes for the commitment to a costume. I appreciate Laci, thank you so much. It's been such a joy to get to chat with you. Where do you like to direct people who want to find out more about you or follow along with your work?
Laci: Yeah, I mean, if you like scams and comedy scam, got his pod, if you like, just, I don't know, goofiness, you can follow me. D-I-V-A-L-A-C-I-D. Lacey on all platforms.
Doree: Thank you, Laci. This was so fun.
Laci: It was so fun.
Kate: I do think there's something interesting about thinking that you can outsmart a scammer
Doree: Totally
Kate: Until it happens to you.
Doree: Well, I think that that almost makes you more susceptible to being scammed.
Kate: Oh, because you're kind of cocky.
Doree: Yeah, you're cocky. You're like, I would never be scammed.
Kate: I mean, let me be clear. I a hundred percent think I could be and will be scammed.
Doree: Totally. And I mean, what I was saying at the top of the show, it's like expect it when you least expect it kind of. You know what I mean? I feel like there's certain things that I'm very aware of when it comes to scams like MLMs.
Kate: Sure.
Doree: And then there's other things that wouldn't even cross my mind to be a scam.
Kate: Don't have an example. You just think don't. That could happen.
Doree: Yeah. That's what I mean. I don't know what I don't know. And so someone could exploit that. So I don't know. It's interesting. It's very interesting. I mean, I'll say one deterrent to being scammed is to be cheap.
Kate: That's a really good point. Hold your money close.
Doree: Hold your money close.
Kate: You won't get scammed. Yeah.
Doree: So there you go. There's my hot tip.
Kate: But you could still get emotionally scam. I mean there's all oh thousand percent
Doree: Of course. But don't you think at the core, most scams are ultimately about money?
Kate: Yes. Yes. I don't know. Yes.
Doree: I think the vast majority of them are romance scams are about money. They're about tricking people to give you money. They think they're in love with you. Anna Delvy, she was a social climbing scammer, but ultimately also took people's money and didn't pay for stuff. You know what I mean? At its core, it was about money.
Kate: Yes. I feel like I'm so confused by money. I would be, I wouldn't even know how to pull a scam. I wouldn't.
Doree: Oh, now you're talking about being a scammer.
Kate: Yeah. If I were a scammer, and this is not me just saying this so that I can then scam you, I wouldn't even know how to get money for, I'm so bad with money. I don't understand how to get, I just feel like I would be, just give me some money. I wouldn't know how to do a good scam.
Doree: The other thing that occurs to me about scams is most successful scams are a long con.
Kate: I know you've got to be patient
Doree: To have so much patience.
Kate: Yeah,
Doree: It's like a lot.
Kate: It's a lot.
Doree: It's a lot.
Kate: It takes a long time.
Doree: It takes a long time. And I mean, I feel like people often come to this conclusion about scammers. I mean, maybe not about Bernie Madoff, but a lot of scammers, you're like, if you had just expended that energy that you used to scam me and other people, you would've actually been a successful person, but instead
Kate: Or used it for good.
Doree: Yeah. You have some sort of pathology that makes you want to scam instead of trying to actually, I don't know. It's interesting. We should get to our intentions.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Kate, did you continue working on your systems?
Kate: I did. I've actually been putting a lot of thought and learning into this area. And I don't have everything really down, but I will say the way that I have organized my Todoist app and has helped me use it in a much more clear way.
Doree: Oh good.
Kate: It's really changed how I use it, and it's been really helpful.
Doree: That's great.
Kate: Yeah. I can share a link to the YouTuber who I stumbled upon who kind of introduced this idea. But basically, Todoist is a task oriented app, and the way they encourage you to set it up is by project. So I used to have podcast and then this book and another book, and then personal stuff, all these different projects. And then I would put tasks in them and it would feel like I could never find them. And the way that this person has it set up is, is a timeline. So this week, next week, this month, next month long-term routines. And then every day I think about, I pick certain tasks that I want to accomplish and then I set some up for tomorrow. So I don't just have this giant to-do list that I'm staring at not knowing where to begin. And I found it very, very manageable.
Doree: That's great. I love that.
Kate: I think the hardest part about a system is sticking with it. And so, and this is something that I really struggle with. I go from system to system. Certain something's going to be perfect.
Doree: Yes, totally.
Kate: What I've kind of have decided is I just need to make a choice and commit to something and then learn how to work the system.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Alright. Okay. Alright. So this week,
Doree: Yeah, talk to me
Kate: This week I am going to, I say this every year, but I'm going to kind of set up some things so that I don't get overwhelmed by the holiday season.
Doree: We're in this season, baby,
Kate: We're in it, it's November, we're in it. And it can become very fraught with buying and shopping and cards and all these things that suck the joy out of it. And right now I am really trying to focus on what truly matters. So I'm just going to try to come up with a plan so that this can be a time of joy and reflection and gratitude and not just shopping.
Doree: I mean, I love this.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: Yeah. You don't sound convinced.
Kate: Well, I feel like I say this every year and I don't know, maybe this will be different, but I also feel like, you know what? You got to try. You got to try.
Doree: You got to try.
Kate: I dunno. How about you? Last week you were dealing with your schedule, all caps.
Doree: Yes. So I've been pretty good about my schedule, especially during the week when we have childcare. It's like weekends I've just had to write off as like I'm not going to get work done on the weekends. But yeah, I think I've been using my time timer and
Kate: the best,
Doree: the best. And I am back to the awareness of I can get stuff done in half an hour. I don't need to have a three hour block to get something done. You know what I mean? I can get something done in half an hour, I know that. But I needed to actually do it.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: This week. So it's funny you said that about the holiday season because, so we're recording this a little bit ahead, but this is running the week before Thanksgiving and I'm realizing that these next couple of weeks before Thanksgiving, I'm super busy because we're going away for Thanksgiving. I'm trying to jam a bunch of stuff in and I'm just going to try to just go with it, be okay with it.
Kate: I like this for you. I find that you do a good job anytime you're kind of heading into a rushed time, you do a good job kind of setting yourself up for success.
Doree: Oh, thank you, Kate. I mean, thanks to the pandemic, I went through a long time when I didn't leave the house and I wasn't that busy. I had work, but I didn't have to actually leave or talk to the people. And now I'm doing more of that and I'm trying to just stay grounded. So here we are.
Kate: Here we are. Grounded.
Doree: Grounded. Thanks everyone for listening. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager, and our network partner is Acast. Thanks for listening. Bye bye.