Episode 286: Navigating Impostor Syndrome with Aparna Nancherla
“For me as a creator, putting something out into the world, that actually feels like the point at which I feel least connected to it.”
- Aparna Nancherla
Kate gets her first professional chemical peel and Doree tries a new, fancy skincare device before comedian and writer Aparna Nancherla joins them to chat about her new book Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself and Impostor Syndrome. They go deep into what it’s like to get what you want but not feel like you deserve it, the joy of starting the day with a mini dance party, learning how to be engaged and informed without using social media, and loving the day-to-day rather than the end goal.
Mentioned in this Episode
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Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself and Impostor Syndrome by Aparna Nancherla
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer
Doree: And I over here, am Doree Shafrir
Kate: Well, hello over there, Doree Shafrir.
Doree: Well, hello.
Kate: Hello. Friendly reminder, we are not experts together. We are two friends who do like to talk a lot about serums, and welcome to the pod.
Doree: Welcome one and all.
Kate: Welcome friends. Welcome enemies. Welcome strangers. Welcome family. We are excited you're all here. We have a wonderful guest joining us later in the episode. But first, I don't know, Doree, if it's okay with you, I thought I would kick it. Skincare. Wow. That's the dorkiest thing I've ever said. I thought I would kick at skincare. Skincare. Okay. Oh God.
Doree: I'm just glad that you recognized how dorky it was so I didn't have to say anything.
Kate: You know what? Having a child who's almost 13, It's like in the last six months she's transformed and part of her job now on earth is to remind me what a fucking dork I am.
Doree: Oh,
Kate: it's never been like this before. Yes.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: And to be fair, she's not wrong. I'm ridiculous and I own it, and I'm at peace with who I am. I love myself, but it is humbling. It's humbling.
Doree: Is it in the mom? You're embarrassing me. Vain.
Kate: Well, that's nonstop all day long from both of them, but it's also a little bit, I am like, I need reading glasses. I can never find them. I can't figure out how to do the software update on my phone. I somehow have started to regress into some sort of stereotypical old person.
Doree: Oh, sure.
Kate: And I remember my parents doing this, and I think it's just a cycle of life. At some point we're like, what is happening? Where's my software update? What's iOS 17?
Doree: Yeah. I remember this in particular with regards to music, wondering why my parents record collection. We had records growing up, why it was frozen in 1973. And now that I'm a grownup, I realize that, Yeah, it often you're interest in new music often just stops because there's just too much of it.
Kate: And also the music you liked 20 years ago was excellent,
Doree: and you want to keep listening to it. And you have to be selective about what the new music that you're listening to is.
Kate: I just started listening to blitzen Trapper.
Doree: Oh, I love Blitz and Trapper.
Kate: They came up in a Spotify radio thing and I was like, oh, I love this. And then I looked at the albums from 2007 and I was like, well, I missed that, but I'm going to keep listening to music I would've liked back then. Anyway.
Doree: Totally. Anyway, sorry, Kate, take us on a journey.
Kate: Okay. All this. I don't know why I started here. Oh, I said something dorky. That's why. Well, Doree, part of also I think kind of entering this middle of my forties stage is that I'm having a lot of feelings about the changes of my face and my body both inside and out, like my cholesterol, but which we've talked about, but also my face look jowls, they're real. And there's a lot of self-acceptance that goes into the changes that come along with aging. And also there's, I think, a feeling I'm noticing more of you start to feel invisible to the world. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Doree: Yeah, I do.
Kate: And you, I have been talking about how challenging we're finding it is to find clothes that we feel like stuff we want to wear. There's just kind of this weird feeling of like, hello, I'm still here. So in one of these moments of what the fuck is happening, I decided to get a chemical peel on my face.
Doree: Now, for those of us who, like myself have never gotten a chemical peel and sort of vaguely know what they're, but not really. Can you describe what a chemical peel is?
Kate: Sure. So I went to just one of your med spa type place here in Los Angeles, and I was doing a consultation and they brought this up as a thing. I was like, I want my face to move, but also my face is getting old. I'm, and the doctor was like, how about a chemical peel? You can try the kind of intro level chemical peel. So a chemical peel is essentially, to my knowledge, again, we have prefaced this podcast with, we are not experts for six years for this very reason.
Doree: That's true.
Kate: But it's essentially applying an acid to the face, which then penetrates the skin, but is also resurfacing the outer layer. So it's essentially an exfoliation, I believe projected results can be everything from helping with sun damage, which is really kind of what I was after. I'm very fair. I have a lot of freckles, which I love, but they've kind of gotten very, turned into big blotches on my face. Despite my continued use of sunscreen, they can help with fine lines and wrinkles. Again, this is all purported results. They're not going to work the same for everybody. You can't have a reaction to them. I think some people might use them for acne scarring. And I was like, all right, the price point was good because some of these things, you go in and you're like, sure, I'd love to try blah, blah, blah, laser zapper. And then they're like, no probs. It's thousands of dollars. And you're like, what? What? And then you question all your life choices and how you ended up in that conversation and
Doree: been there, been there.
Kate: So this one is called the perfect peel. And again, there are different levels of chemical peels, and this is kind of a very, I would say, beginner level.
Doree: Okay. Now is the idea that you work up to a more intense thing, or maybe you never do? Or what's the sort of thinking on this?
Kate: I think ultimately, what are you trying to target? What do you want to do? How much money do you want to spend? Et cetera.
Doree: Yes, yes, Yes, yes. Okay.
Kate: Et cetera. So I was kind like, well, I'm curious. I'm peel curious. I'm going to just try this one and just see what happens. And I'm in a little bit, I have so much on my plate right now. I didn't do my normal deep dive hyper fixation. Let me Google everything I can about this peel. So I really went into it not knowing too much, and the process was pretty simple. They just washed my face, put the peel on, then did another layer or two, and then talked me through what the next steps would be for the week. And there are a couple things I had to do at home. I had to do a couple peel pads, meaning you get these two take home pads and you give yourself more of the, I guess the peel on your face over the next day, plus moisturizing and sunscreen obsessively. And I'm almost a week out. I'm six days out now, and it's been an interesting experience. I still don't quite know what to make of, I don't think I'm in the results phase yet.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: I think I'm headed there. My skin is definitely clearer.
Doree: Interesting.
Kate: Which is interesting. So some questions people in my life have had are like, did it hurt going on? Painting it on, it definitely kind of stung like a little warm stingy feeling. It didn't bother me that much. And my skin handled it pretty well. The smell was atrocious. It smells
Doree: Oh, Interesting.
Kate: Like a chemical lab. So it didn't hurt. And then my face was just kind of tight. And then the following couple of days it was just tight and a little itchy. And I just did my obsessive sun screening and wearing of hats and moisturizing and washing. And then I would say a couple days ago it started to flake because the layer of skin for most many people, it will peel and flake off. And I had warned my children, but then yesterday they were like, you look scary because my face, and then they noticed I was wearing a black sweatshirt and they were like, your skin's all over your shirt, because it was flaking off my face. You're not supposed to pick it off or pull at it because that can result in scarring or leaving a mark. Now I literally have a skin picking as part of all my mental health stuff, especially when I'm stressed, which I am right now. So my face is giving me the gift of things to pick and I can't pick at it. But the skin has been, I watched some videos of people with chunks of skin that they had to cut off their face. Mine flaked. I described it as face dandruff. That's what it was like Flakes like crumbs of my skin all over the collar of my sweatshirt. So I think I can still, I don't know if you can see, we're doing a video recording on this side. I can still see some skin peeling off. I dunno if
Doree: I can't really see it. It does look. Does look like you have fewer freckles?
Kate: I think that's what I mean by kind of clearing up the skin. I think it did kind of remove some of the sunspots on my face. And when I met with the doctor who I did this with, I was like, my freckles, I'm not trying to remove my freckles. Totally. I like my freckles. And they're also, I've had them since for as long as I can remember. But she was like, it'll just help brighten things up a little bit. And I do see that, which I find intriguing. It feels also one thing I have noticed, my pores are gone. You cannot see a pore on my face.
Doree: Wow, that's so interesting.
Kate: I don't know how long that will last, but you cannot, there's nothing, it's wild.
Doree: Fascinating.
Kate: And the texture does feel smooth. I'm going to give it a couple more days to really make an assessment because it also does feel very tight and very dry, which I'm not loving. So they do recommend you do a hydrating facial a couple of weeks after to kind of get everything out, get all the gunk out. So I might do that, But it's been kind of an interesting experience. I don't know. I don't know necessarily if I, I'm not like gung-ho, the perfect peel's number one fan, but I also felt like it wasn't a major lift. You hear some stories about people getting chemical peels and then having to sit inside for a month, and I went out in my sunscreen and my hat and I saw some friends and I was like, just so you know, my face is peeling off. And people were very, I did have to warn our guest today, Aparna, before our interview. I was like, hello, it's lovely to meet you. I loved your book. Also, my skin's flaking off because I, in a moment of existential panic. Decided I was going to get a chemical peel. She was very nice about it. So that is my first journey into peels. I certainly notice more of a result than any sort of at home chemical peel type thing I've ever done. I definitely notice results. So that has been interesting.
Doree: Wow. Okay.
Kate: But I'm not sure yet if I would do this again. I dunno.
Doree: Okay. Okay.
Kate: Anyone else out there in the chemical peel world want to share their experiences? And I, I often will get really excited to do all this shit to my face and then back out at the last minute because I'm scared of a negative result. Just thinking about, I've done microneedling once, but I don't think I would do it again. I don't know. You've done laser things to your face, right?
Doree: I have, yes.
Kate: And did you do IPL? Is that it? Or something along those lines?
Doree: It's called the, it's along the lines of IPL. It's not exactly IPL, but it's along the lines of IPL and I thought it was great. It's very targeted though. They zap each, I did it for age spots. They zap each individual age spot.
Kate: Wow, okay.
Doree: But I felt like it just sort of generally also brightened up my skin.
Kate: And do you remember how long it kind of lasted for you?
Doree: Excuse me. I mean, yeah.
Kate: Or still. Is it still going?
Doree: Yeah, still is. When you go out into the sun, you're going to get some spots. I do try to be really careful about sunscreen, but would say, I think I would do it twice a year.
Kate: Okay. Yeah. I might do another mask and just see what happens. Another peel, I mean, excuse me. I might do another one of these perfect peels, see how the second one goes and then form a stronger opinion. But I did just want to keep everybody abreast of what was going on with my face.
Doree: Thank you. Kate. I have been using a new device.
Kate: There are things in our friendship that we don't share until we are in front of these microphones. And this is clearly one of them because I haven't heard about this, so
Doree: Probably a year ago, a company called Neue Lift sent me one of their little RF Frequency devices, their radio frequency devices. Now it's all sort of in the same realm as a new face, a solo weight. They all use slightly different technology, but it's all kind of the same idea. It's like a device you rub over your face. Even you use the Peter, what's his name?
Kate: Peter, Dr. Dennis Gross. Dr. Dennis Gross.
Doree: I was going to say Peter Gross. No,
Kate: I get him and Peter Thomas Roth.
Doree: That's, Yes.
Kate: Confused.
Doree: That mask that you, it's all kind of the same concept, right? Right. Skin tightening, fine lines, blah, blah, blah. And you're supposed to use it on your face every day for 10 minutes. You're supposed to go by region and it kind of buzzes like an electric toothbrush when you are supposed to change regions. I get kind of bored. So I haven't been doing it for 10 minutes. I feel like I could probably just, I could turn on music or listen to a podcast. I just haven't been that organized about it. I've only been using it for three days. So I don't have a conclusion one way or the other. But I just wanted to let you know that that has been happening because historically I've,
Kate: I appreciate your transparency.
Doree: Well, historically, I've never been able to consistently use a device for any real period of time.
Kate: It's hard.
Doree: And that's the thing with these devices is people are like, do they work? And it's like, yes, they work, but you have to use them all the time. It's not like you use one for six months and then you can just stop.
Kate: Yeah. This is kind of where my hangup with any sort of device is. Just the question of will you every day spend 15 minutes zapping it all over your face with a special cream that you need? It requires work or time.
Doree: It requires work. It requires investment. Like I said, I was financial investment. I was fortunate enough to have this sent to me, but it's It's not cheap supposedly.
Kate: No, it ain't.
Doree: Supposedly these are devices that are used by a professional aesthetician. So I don't know. I'm curious though. I was like, let me see if I can make this work for me. So I'll report back.
Kate: Yeah, I would be curious to know if you end up sticking with it or if you are like me and you run out of steam, which is always what happens.
Doree: Totally. Well also because I'm doing it at night when I do my regular skincare routine and often I'm just like, I want to just get into bed. I don't want to sit around. And I was like, well, I could do it in bed, but then I'm like, then I would either have to bring my entire skincare routine to my bed or then have to get up anyway to do. You know what I mean? So I'm like,
Kate: I do.
Doree: It's not really a great answer to this.
Kate: That's why the mask I do, because I get into bed and put it on and I keep it under my bed and I just pull it out, put it on,
Doree: and then what do you do about your moisturizer and stuff?
Kate: Well, then I have to get back up and put them,
Doree: this is what I'm saying, right? This is what I'm saying.
Kate: Right.
Doree: I see the appeal of the mask though, because it's more passive. You can just kind stick it on. Or is this device do device not to be holding and moving around. So I don't know. It's funny we didn't actually talk about this with our guest, but this is something that she brings up in her book in an interesting chapter that kind of touches on a lot of these topics about beauty and aging and the beauty industrial complex. And maybe the next time we talk to her, we will bring all that up. But I think it's probably a good time to introduce her.
Kate: Let's do it. Doree, you want to take it away?
Doree: Okay. I would love to take it away. Aparna Nala is a comedian and as she says, general silly Billy, her book Unreliable narrator, me, myself, and Imposter Syndrome was published on September 19th. You might also know her as The Voice of Moon on Fox's the Great North. She was also the voice of Holly Ock on BoJack Horseman. She was in the drop on Hulu. She's also been on Lopez versus Lopez, just a litany of great TV shows. She was named one of the 50 funniest people right now by Rolling Stone. She was also fun Fact, she was in a Super Bowl commercial with Michael Buble in 2019 for sparkling water.
Kate: Listen, that's the true dream. Honestly,
Doree: That is the true dream. Aparna currently lives in Los Angeles and we both really enjoyed her book, and also really enjoyed our conversation. So we are going to take a short break. But actually before we do that, I just want to remind everyone on our website, which is Forever35podcast.com. We have links to everything we mentioned on the show. We're also on Instagram at @Forever35podcast. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com/forever35. We have a seven day free trial. So if you're Patreon curious and you want to just check it out, check it out, poke around, you can join the Discord for those seven days. They will kick you out though automatically if you don't actually sign up. But you can check it out for seven days. You can hear all of the episodes we've already recorded. And then at the end of the seven days, if you decide you're like, eh, not for me, that's fine. But try it out. patreon.com/forever35. We also have a newsletter at Forever35podcast.com/newsletter. And also, please do call or text us at (781) 591-0390 or email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Kate: Doree?
Doree: Yes, Kate,
Kate: Can I also just give a shout out to our Giving circle, which is currently raising money via your donations and our donations for local races in Virginia where things are extremely, extremely tight. So if you are a concerned citizen of the United States and you want to support Progressive folks and their local races, please, please donate any amount helps. It's going directly to races at the local level through the State's project, which was just featured in a lovely article in the New York Times.
Doree: Yeah, it was really great.
Kate: We're so proud to get to work with them and our listeners have raised so much money already. You all have been so incredibly generous with your support of our giving circle, so thank you for doing that and it's never too late to donate.
Doree: Thank you, Kate. Alright, we are going to take a short break And we will be right back.
Kate: Welcome to Forever35. I feel like asking you our first question, which is what is a current self-care practice is a bit redundant because I feel like your whole book really captures so many things that you've done to care for yourself. But just to get the ball rolling, would you mind sharing one kind of self-care thing that is resonating for you right now?
Aparna: Yeah, one thing I've been doing recently is shortly after I wake up in the morning, and usually after I brush my teeth, I put on any sort of random song and I dance to it and it feels, I dunno why it feels so indulgent, but it really kind of gets me out of my head and into my body and I found, yeah, I mean sounds so simple or something, but it really helps me get out of that anxiety brain that I usually start the day with.
Kate: Can I ask, was that something you intuitively one day was like, oh, I think I need to get out of my cerebral state and into my physical state? Or did someone suggest it to you? Is it something you heard somewhere? How did that come into your life?
Aparna: I think I've been more and more interested in body work in the last few years of doing therapy that's not just mind focused and what's going on in your brain. I have lived a lot of my life kind of just as a head detached from my body. So I've been working very hard on feeling my arms and legs and I think music, I also find very healing and stuff. So I think maybe it just was an idea I had one day and then it really helped so much that I was like, maybe I'll do this again. And then I just kept doing it.
Kate: What are some songs you've been dancing to lately?
Aparna: Yeah, that's a great question because I'm very much in the enthrall to Apple music's recommendations. So it's really just like, what do you want me to listen to Apple? Yeah. This is so embarrassing. But full honesty, I guess. I think I've been for a while listening to a lot of Bear Naked ladies.
Kate: Oh, that's not embarrassing at all
Aparna: really.
Kate: I don't think so. I did go to a Bear Naked ladies concert sophomore year of high school and it was one of, we all threw mac and cheese on the stage and it was amazing.
Aparna: Wait, What really is that a thing,
Kate: They have a fandom and I think they have traditions in their fandom and it might've had to do with if I had a million dollars or something. I haven't thought about this in so long. Sorry, this just came out of my brain. But yeah, no, I don't think that's embarrassing at all. That one week song is pretty, they have some catchy tunes is what I'm saying.
Aparna: Yeah, I think that's the thing. They're very upbeat and yeah, the messaging is very, just nothing too deep or heavy. So yeah, there's one song that's called Postcard to chimpanzees where you're just, what made you write this, but I dont need to know really.
Kate: It is so funny. You mentioned them, Doree and I go back and forth about the music we were listening to in high school. We both grew up outside Boston and had very different musical tastes. And Doree, now that I'm saying this, that's what I was up to. Bare Naked ladies.
Doree: Great. I mean,
Kate: Aparna, thank you for bringing that back into my brain.
Aparna: Oh, you're so welcome. I think they just released a new album. I think that's how I got back in sync with them. Not to reference another band, but yes,
Kate: I loved your book. I read your book on the heels of listening to Maria Bamford's audiobook, so it was an amazing kind of a double whammy of two comics that I love just teaching me so much. And I was curious about your perspective as a creative because excavating your own life, especially when it's digging into your experiences and the ways in which self-doubt manifests, and you literally write a whole chapter about it, but that feels like a double whammy for me. And the fact that you did it, I don't know. It said to me it was important for you to speak to this. I would just like to hear, especially for our audience who might be learning about your book for the first time, what was the kind of moment you were like, well, this is what I'm going to dig in on and it's going to be hard and painful, but it will also hopefully be worth it.
Aparna: Yeah, I mean, I was thinking through even this process now, it's like the book is out. I've been promoting it and weirdly promoting yourself doubt also feels weird. Yeah, that makes sense. So I was kind of like, what step of this process has actually not been completely destabilizing for me? And I was like maybe when I first originally had the idea before I at all tried to start doing it with maybe the honeymoon phase for me, but the idea itself came out of just, I had been doing standup for a decade plus I had gotten some moderate success. And I think as an artist or creator of any kind, when you start, you have this end goal inside of when I'm either able to do this full time or reach these X, Y, and Z milestones that I've set for myself. And I realized the more things I checked off my list, the worst self-doubt got. And if anything, I felt more and more like, what am I doing here? I dunno what I'm doing. I don't deserve to be here. And that was very disconcerting because you're like, this is what I wanted now what is my whole ethos going forward? So that made me want to pause and just be like well lets sit with this self doubt for a minute if it has so much to say, why doesnt it do some work for me
Kate: I think imposter syndrome is such a thing we all resonate with. Have you already kind of been inundated with people being like, oh, me too. I see this myself.
Aparna: Yeah, I mean definitely people have reached out to me who are like, yes, I also experienced these things, but maybe not in the same field of comedy or something. But yeah, I think it's weird because I write a lot about just stuff that happens deep in my brain and it is always kind of for some reason surprising every time when I hear other people be like, oh, I've had these exact same thoughts because I get so lost in my head that I always somehow forget that other people could be having the exact same experience. So I think writing and comedy is one way that really forces me outside of my own rigid set of beliefs that I've convinced myself of.
Doree: I was just going to ask, was there anything that changed for you as you were writing the book, a way that you had thought about yourself maybe in the past that now upon reflection, your perspective shifted as you were excavating these memories?
Aparna: Yeah, I mean, I think part of the reason I wanted to write a book in general, which is something I hadn't done at all previously or anything even particularly long form in terms of writing, was that a lot of these things like self-doubt and my anxiety and my depression are not things that cleanly get solved or you figure it out and then you put it in its little box. They're very messy and ongoing and it's like two steps forward, three steps back. So I thought a book would be a better way to be a little more unresolved with some of the writing and a little more messy and ambiguous than with a setup and a punchline where you have to have a little more removed from the whole thing. And I do think there was still that sort of perfectionist fantasy of I'll write it and then I'll figure out why I have all this stuff and then I'll be cured. But that didn't not happen. If anything, it maybe made it worse at points. And yeah,
Kate: You talk about this moment early on in your career, this is in kind of your chapter in writing about the concept of saying no and the challenges that come along with that. And you make this point that you had said no, you backed out of a comedy show because you weren't feeling well. And then the booker proceeded to email you and be like, you need to be more professional. And it really introduced to me this idea of women especially are really encouraged to own their power and say no, but often the considerations they have to make in terms of what that actually means are very real. And I hadn't really, even though I've talked about this and thought about it, that part hadn't quite clicked for me. And I really appreciated you making that point and was hoping you could dig into that a little bit more and just talk about how do you balance this actual reality of if you do say no, oftentimes you aren't given the other chance just based on being a woman and perhaps also specifically being an Asian woman.
Aparna: Yeah, I mean I think early on it is that maybe beginner's mindset, especially when you're starting in a career trying to make a name for yourself in a field where it is just say yes to every opportunity, whatever gets me more experienced or exposure. But yeah, I noticed early on that it's like there was also just this heavy people pleasing aspect to it of if I don't show up, I'm going to let all these people down or I'm going to mess up the show. And I think, yeah, with age, I've kind of let go of some of that, just trying to be responsible for everyone's opinion of me at all times. And there is definitely, you're saying more of a calculus you have to do as a woman where it's like, if I say no, what are the implications of me saying no to this thing or this person? I don't know if it's just maybe the freedom you get sometimes with getting older where, I mean, it's a bit morbid, but just where you're like, I don't have enough time to say yes to all these things. There's just not enough time left to try to please everyone else. And yeah, I don't know if there's a way to maybe have that mindset as a younger person because sometimes I feel like it's just something you learn with experience.
Kate: Yeah, I mean that's definitely something I know I'm still personally working on, but certainly the realization that, oh God, I don't have time. The time is running out.
Aparna: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Kate: Nothing like existential dread to help you remedy your people pleasing.
Aparna: But yeah, I guess to your point, just to add of maybe the gender difference, I would notice sometimes if male comedians said no to something or didn't show up to something, there would be less maybe implicit judgment of them as a person rather than treating it as more situational or circumstance or, oh, they just forgot or something. Whereas with a woman, it's calculated somehow or it's like she always does this and yeah, that's just infuriating.
Doree: Can we talk a little bit about your chapter about social media?
Kate: Oh, please.
Doree: And how, I loved what you said about getting off social media, but still wanting to be, you said, informed and engaged. And that feels like just such a difficult needle to thread, right?
Aparna: Yeah.
Doree: Especially when so much of the way we are informed now is on social media. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about what led you to get off of social media and how you are kind of threading that needle currently?
Aparna: Yeah. So I started on Twitter pretty early on when I think it was newish. And I think a lot of comedians were gravitating towards it as both just a joke incubator and a way to connect with other humor writers or comedians. And early on I got success and attention with it and job opportunities and just connected with people I wouldn't have otherwise. So I feel very grateful to it in that way, but then I definitely just burnt out on it. As my follower account grew, I just felt like I was engaging with it in a more and more unhealthy way, and I was kind of using it as a metric that wasn't translating well to my actual life. And that's also around the time I decided to start writing the book. And then the pandemic happened shortly after that. So I think just the confluence of all these things just made social media worse and worse fit for my brain of just Too much noise, too many other people's voices, especially writing the book. I was so in my head that any outside noise would just be that much louder. So I stepped away from it. And as you do as a social media creator, it was like, obviously I then got less engagement when I did post later, but I wasn't checking it at all, so it wasn't maybe bothering me in the same way. But then only recently have I gotten back on to promote the book, and I feel very much in the, I don't know, I feel like I'm now a social media user who maybe falls in line with the Facebook aunt or something where I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just like, I dunno how to reach the audience. I feel so out of touch and I dunno how anything works that I'm, it doesn't make me want to go back, that's for sure. But I'm also just like, I feel so alien here now.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, it all moves so fast that you go off of it for a little while and then you come back on and it's like, oh, everyone's talking about some meme or whatever, and I'm just totally out of the loop. I mean, I would feel when Twitter was kind of at its height, I would feel that way. Even just logging on the West Coast.
Kate: Oh yeah.
Aparna: Everything moves so fast. It's like, oh, that's so fast. That thing you just learned about is actually over now.
Doree: Right, exactly. I was like, people are already making jokes about the jokes about something. I don't even know what the original thing that they were talking about was. And I just feel like that is just broadly, a lot of my experience with social media is feeling behind,
Aparna: Constantly behind. And also now, because I don't engage with it as much, I frequently don't know what people are talking about. And that still can be upsetting because you feel very maybe disconnected in that way. But then I just try to remind myself when you were on it all the time, that didn't necessarily make you feel more connected in the ways you want to be.
Doree: Yes, exactly.
Kate: Yeah. I am going through that right now. And it's like, it's hard to participate in conversations, but also your mental health is so much better, but it's like then you lose out on some sort of social language and finding that happy medium is really hard. But I think a lot more people are going to be going that route because I do think we're becoming more and more aware of how fucked up social media can make us feel.
Aparna: Yeah. I mean, I always really feel now for kids where it's like you didn't even have the option of growing up without a screen where I'm just like, what does that make?
Kate: Yeah.
Aparna: How do you make sense of the world when that's how everything is parsed?
Kate: I don't know. I have a almost 13 year old who's doing a lot of, she takes selfies and does a lot of, she does these faces where I'm like, how do you know how to do that? And they just do, I don't know. Anyway.
Aparna: Yeah, it's another, yeah, my sibling has toddlers and I'm like, they already know how to find their light or whatever.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: Can I ask you, in writing a book about mental health and your own mental health experiences, and I think you did such a nice job putting little kind of, I don't want to say context warnings, but little things at the start of different chapters to kind of brief people, but also add as a disclaimer, these are my experiences and we can have the same mental health diagnosis and have very, very varied and different experiences, but it still didn't stop me from picking up your book and then being like, I'm going to try everything in here because this'll solve my life. So I guess I wanted to ask for the reader who connects with something that you've written, what direction would you gently steer them in terms of seeking help and support, but knowing that it's also an individual experience?
Aparna: Yeah, I mean, I think I also just have the seeker type personality where I'm always looking for that next thing that's going to really change things for me. So I think I'm also just prone to that mentality of the next big thing. I think I would easily be sucked into a cult because I think it's already checking off the things for me that I want. But yeah, I think with other people, I want to gently remind them that everyone is so different, and there is do, even as someone who's constantly seeking cures, I also inherently distrust the self-help industry. I always feel like their solutions are too easy, where it's like, yeah, right is the answer, seven bullet points. I don't buy it. I always want it to be some sort of inward journey where I find myself. But yeah, I guess just remembering that it is really no judgment on you. If one thing that everyone is like, this changed my life, does nothing for you. It's so individual and not just for the person, but the stage you're at in your life and else's do you have going on?
Kate: Yeah, That's a really good point. Just the age and yeah, life stage.
Aparna: I'm always jealous when younger people somehow have an epiphany that I just learned. I'm like, how dare you have two more decades of already knowing this.
Kate: I know,
Doree: Speaking of just navigating mental health stuff, in your recent interview with the New York Times, you were tapping before a live show, and you talked a little bit about the different, and you talked about this in your book as well, the different ways that you've dealt with depression and anxiety, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what you're doing now and how you're setting those boundaries also just in your professional and your personal life that you need to deal with your own depression and anxiety.
Aparna: Yeah. I think what's still tricky for me, and I write about it a bit in the book is just I still feel like even in promoting this book, a lot of the attention I've gotten is like, this is a comedian who talked a lot about mental health interact, and then it affected her life, and then it's written about in the book, and I really have had to delineate a clear boundary between me talking about in my work versus my experience of it in my actual life, where they're rarely the same thing. And even talking to an interviewer about tapping on stage is still, it doesn't mean that maybe I'll be doing it in six months or that it's always working perfectly, but it's like right now it's working. And it's tricky though because sometimes I am, if I'm being so open about everything, is that changing the way it's showing up in my actual life? I guess it's that whole thing everyone struggles with now of the performance you're putting out into the world of who you are versus you as an actual person in your day-to-day life.
Doree: And when you're performing standup, it's even,
Aparna: Oh, yeah, yeah, that adds another layer of complexity. But yeah, trying to remember that it's like me being really anxious to get on stage is separate from me. Then getting on stage and being like, here's a funny thing about my anxiety. It's sort two different selves, and I try not to conflate them as much as maybe I used to.
Kate: Can I ask a question about work? Because you talk about breaking free of productivity mindset and just the way in which you were raised to view work as not for pleasure, and that can be how we're raised in our family, but also a world around us. Do you still have that kind of inner voice about what work should look like or what productivity should look like? Or have you kind of developed and cultivated your own feelings throughout your career about what work and professional success looks like for you?
Aparna: That voice of productivity and achievement is so ingrained in me. I don't know if I'll ever be able to fully unlearn it, even in a given day. I know at this point I'll get to maybe one thing on my list if that, and it's still at the end of the day, I'll be like, you didn't do anything just that internal manager or whatever. So I think I have to constantly reinforce a different mentality. And for me, it's also just tied to the fact that it's not just productivity, but it's sort of like, what is the productivity working toward? Because for me, it's like the fulfillment I find in doing these things is often in the day-to-day rather than the end goal of even with this book coming out, I'm like, I don't think I'm the most satisfied now that it's done. I think it's more somewhere in the process of making discoveries as you're writing it. Not that it's always easy. There were definitely rough patches with that too. But yeah, I think for me as a creator, putting something out into the world that actually feels like the point at which I feel least connected to it. So then it's like productivity is very little about the end goal because that's not really the part that I find gratifying or fulfilling, even though it's in our society, it equates to the check marks and the prizes and the attention, and I'm like, yeah, I don't think that stuff is as cool as I once thought it was.
Kate: Yeah, I mean, it really is. I start to, when I look at my own kids too, it starts to become clear. It's woven into everything. I guess I can only speak specifically to American culture, but wow, it's just you pick it up at a young age, and so by the time you start to awaken to things, it's like, well, I'm going to pull that thread and then all the other threads are going to come loose about everything. It connects to so much with how we treat ourselves,
Aparna: And I think the thing that then can be even trickier is if you're then I am talking about my mental health or myself doubt, then it's like, well, if someone else is doing it and more successful than me, then what does that say about even my shittiness is not, can't do a good job or something. I don't know. It just creates ever more strange ways of measuring yourself, I guess.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about just you talking about getting off social media, which is something I've been doing, but then it's like somebody's doing it better than me.
Aparna: Totally.
Kate: I can't, I'm still finding ways to make it a comparative situation as opposed to even just like you were kind of saying, reflecting on why you're doing something, but it's very hard, and that does all kind of connect, at least for me, to that core idea of imposter syndrome.
Aparna: Yeah, yeah. Just this idea that everyone else is kind of operating from a playbook that you don't know how to access. I think it's always been this feeling that I have under the surface.
Kate: Yeah. I have kind of a silly question for you, but you made a reference in your book that spoke to me on such a level, and Doree, I'm curious if this resonated with you, but you were talking about your experiences in high school and college and made a passing reference to ski passes, tags on jackets being a signifier to you of a certain kind of person wealth, and that it was visceral for me as a kid growing up outside Boston, that was such a sign. So I just wanted to pose this for you. This is, I think a fun question, but what are the things as a kid for you and maybe even as an adult that signify a rich person or have that same kind of ski tag on jacket? For me as a kid, it was people who had water and ice machines on the front of their refrigerators that felt so glamorous. I was just curious, we all have different things. We're all growing up in different environments. Were there other things like that for you that kind of clicked on in your head that signify a certain type of person?
Aparna: I think I'm pretty bad at figuring out people's social status sometimes because I think I'm very easily fooled by, if you present really well, I just assume you're really well off. A woman with a nice bag. I'm just like, well, she knows what she's doing. I think I default to, assuming everyone else is just keeping it together better than I very rarely will see someone and be like, oh, just like me.
Kate: That was such a perfect encapsulation of a certain type of East Coast.
Aparna: I'll notice a lot in airports because I think in airports, I'm always like, if you can look put together for this, you don't need, you don't have to. Who are you dressing up for tsa,
Kate: Kate, For me, it was when the kids had their own phone line, not just a phone in their room, but when they had a whole separate number. It was like the kid's phone that was like, oh, I guess it also for me was like, oh, they have cooler parents than I do, because I wasn't even allowed to have a phone in my room, let alone my own line. But yeah, I just remember that was like, oh, the kids line,
Aparna: And we didn't have cable or video games growing up, so I think I just was like, oh, everyone else is living a better kid life than I'm
Kate: Right. There's so much cooler stuff at somebody else's house.
Aparna: Yeah,
Kate: I'd be curious, I'm curious what those things are now for kids and teenagers of this generation. I don't know. I should ask my children.
Doree: I feel like they might have some ideas.
Kate: Oh, they all have plenty to say. Well, a part of this has been really wonderful to get to talk to you. Your book is really just such a pleasure to read and so insightful. I love how researched it is. I really appreciated that.
Aparna: I know. I mean, staying on brand, I did feel a bit like an imposter doing all the research because I think the books I gravitate towards are the essays written by writer journalists, and I'm just like, oh, they're so well read, and they know all this stuff. And so I did my band fiction version of that, but I was like, if you pay attention, there's only three periodicals that I seem to read from
Kate: So that's okay. That's more than many of us. So well done. Well, thank you again. And for folks who are interested in finding your work, what is the best way to follow you and follow your work?
Aparna: Yeah, I mean, if you want to engage with me very haphazardly on social media, I am on Instagram and Twitter or whatever is now Twitter at apar napkins, just Aparna. And then my website is AparnaComedy.com, and I'm going to try to be better about there.
Kate: And your new book is Unreliable narrator, me, myself, an imposter syndrome, and there's truly something for everybody in it. So everyone should definitely, it was so great. Thank you for writing it.
Aparna: Thank you for reading it, Im so thankful for both of you. So thank you for having me.
Kate: One of the things that I really loved about reading Aparna book, she's a comedian I have followed for a while and always really admired, and it is so helpful for me, a fellow imposter syndrome, people pleaser type to hear other people talk about it because I think one thing that perhaps many of us or all of us feel is we're the only one that successful, brilliant person over there can no way be feeling like they're the imposter. And it's really validating and also humanizing and her book just, it was just so thoughtfully done. I really loved it.
Doree: Yes, I completely agree. Kate. Yeah, like I said, I really enjoyed talking to her. There was so much in the book that I was like, oh my God, I totally relate to this.
Kate: Totally. And I mentioned this, but I read it immediately after finishing Maria Bamford's new book on audiobook, which I also just want to heartily recommend. Maybe I'll talk more about it at another point. But that was also wonderful. So lots of great comedians writing books about mental health right now, thank you to them for their service.
Doree: I love that for them, for us,
Kate: Truly, we all need it, truly.
Doree: It's great.
Kate: Okay. Doree, you spoke so beautifully about your process in getting rid of baby clothes and just the emotional weight of it, as well as just the way it takes up space in your home, but also space in your heart.
Doree: Well, I wrote about it in my newsletter.
Kate: I know. It was beautiful.
Doree: Oh, thank you. So yeah, if you want to kind of see more of my thoughts, my mom said, I made her cry.
Kate: It was really beautiful.
Doree: Thank you. That's at Doree com. It's still going.
Kate: Yeah, well, it's a lot.
Doree: I've made major progress. For example, there was a bag of basically newborn clothes that I had asked if my friend Katie, who's due imminently if she wanted them. And she was like, yeah, but she lives a little bit far from me. And then the other day I was just like, you know what? I'm going to mail these to you. I was like, I'm not going to have this bag just sitting around for weeks before I decide to go up to her house. So I just shoved everything in an envelope and I was like, you know what? That was worth $7. You know what I mean?
Kate: Perfect. Totally.
Doree: I'll go see her after the baby is born, but in the meantime, these clothes are out my face.
Kate: You, you're investing in your peace of mind.
Doree: Yes, exactly. I'm also going to tackle some clothes of mine, and this is something that I will, by the time this airs, I will have either written about it in my newsletter already, or I will be about to write about it in my newsletter. But my attempts at buying new fall clothes and subsequently selling old clothes, and there's a full length mirror that has been just sitting in our hall bathroom because there's no real space for it in the house. But I was like, oh, I could use this mirror for try ons. But then also I have this fantasy of taking all the clothes out of my closet and putting together outfits like all clueless and taking pictures, oh my god. And having those, but I need to get, I was like, well, Polaroid film is really expensive. I dunno, it's a work in progress. But that is the next phase I think of my ongoing project is putting outfits together inspired by Sophie Strauss, putting outfits together, taking anything that needs to be tailored to be tailored. I have this one, I have a great pair of wide leg, sorry, now I'm just rambling. But I have a great pair of wide leg black pants that I got from Banana Republic Factory a year and a half ago. And I think I've worn them once because they're too long and I just need to get them hemmed, but I just haven't done it.
Kate: It's so hard.
Doree: So like I would wear these more often if they fit me correctly. So I'm going to do that. Are there other things in my closet that I've subconsciously been avoiding wearing because they don't quite fit for whatever reason? So that is both my weekly intention and a sort of bigger ongoing intention.
Kate: I love that idea of making a personal look book of all your fits.
Doree: Thank you. Kate, what about you?
Kate: That sounds amazing. Well, last week I was just focusing on doing at least a five minute meditation, which I did. But I have been kind of in that stress cycle where I'm just gnawing my fingers off and not doing any of my good self-care practices, but I'm hoping to just kind of barrel through it. And then we have a group of friends who we write, gather, and write with, and we're on a text chain together. And today everybody was talking about their hobbies. They're all very crafty our writer friends. And I was like, I don't have anything I like doing with my hands. And then I remembered that I did enjoy beating necklaces for a hot second there before I broke my hand two years ago. And so I was kind of like,
Doree: in fact, you gave me one.
Kate: I did, I gave you one. And I gave, I think my best friend lease one. And then that was the extent of my beading. And then I stopped. But I enjoyed doing it. And I think I was just kind of like, I don't know where to buy beads and I don't know anything about jewelry making and what is silk string? And I just kind of felt overwhelmed. So my thought was that when I get through this work deadline that I'm on, can kind come up for air, maybe just watching a couple YouTube videos, seeing what I might need to kind of do this again on my own. Because I did really, really enjoyed it. It was something I could do to get out of my brain space. And I love giving things to people. I love making things. This is a fun little thing I could do to make for other people. So that's my intention for the week.
Doree: I love that, Kate.
Kate: We'll see next week if I stick with it. But that's the beauty of doing a podcast where we hold ourselves accountable in this very public way.
Doree: Totally. Alright, well let's also, before we go, remind everyone that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and you, Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast.
Kate: Thanks everybody.
Doree: Bye.