Episode 285: When All Your Friends Start Having Kids with Allison Davis
“Everybody poops. I’m just here to find out how. “
- Allison Davis
Kate and Doree get to sit down with journalist Allison Davis to discuss her latest New York Magazine article about what happens when your friends start having kids. They also discuss how Allison became a writer for NY Mag and her process of profiling celebrities like Megan Markle, Cardi B, and Emily Henry.
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Transcript
Kate: Well, hello there and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts.
Doree: We're not. We're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: And hello, welcome to the show.
Doree: Welcome to the show, everybody. I think we're going to kind of just get right into it today because we had such an amazing conversation with our guest, Alison Davis, who is just so cool and wrote the story that everyone has been talking about for New York Magazine. So yeah, so let's just introduce her.
Kate: Let's leap right in. I mean, we should say she has written, if anyone is writing the stories that we are all sending to each other and gabbing about it, is Allison
Doree: truly, it really is.
Kate: Her work is so amazing and just really kind of at the pinnacle, the forefront of pop culture and I would say culture. Okay, so let's get into it. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Excuse me. So Alison is a writer. She writes mostly for magazines, but it also works in TV and film. Her profiles, features and essays regularly appear in New York, Esquire, gq, California, Sunday L and the New York Times. Her profile of Alina Dunham won a 2019 front page award. And the essay, Tinder Hearted, a live journal entry masquerading as a feature was a national magazine award finalist, but none of that will ever overshadow her one true achievement as a writer helping the terms. BDE, yes, that's Big Dick Energy and Vibe Shift becomes so overused. Your grandmother might say it for tv, she's written for Fleischman is in Trouble on fx. And season two of Hulu's Tell Me Lies among others. And she says she's looking for more horny and twisted shows to write on. She's also very slowly currently working on a book of essays about sex and her most recent piece about childless adults and adults with children and the strain and challenges of friendships together and how those relationships grow is currently out. Now you probably read her profile of Meghan Markle. I mean, she has just, she's done it all and yet I can't wait to see what else she does.
Doree: Yes, love that.
Kate: So without further ado, we are going to hop right into our conversation with Alison, although I will say before we do that, you can of course check out our website Forever35podcast.com. For links to everything you mentioned on the show, you can find us on Patreon at patreon.com/forever35 where you can watch video recordings of our episodes at our $10 tier. You can also get add free episodes at that tier. And if you want to reach us, you can call us at (781) 591-0390 or email us at Forever35Podcast@gmail.com. And now for real, here is Alison, welcome to Forever35. We are very excited to have you on the show today. You are, I would say, one of our generation's most prolific writers, so this is a true honor.
Doree: Well, prolific I feel like just implies that she's writing constantly.
Kate: I mean writing fantastically.
Doree: Yeah, I feel like you are. It's like, ooh, a new Alison Davis article just came out. It's like an event. It's very exciting. So we're so excited to have you on the show, so thank you for coming on.
Allison: Thank you guys. I'm already, so you're making me blush already. Anytime someone uses the word generation anywhere near the vicinity of writer or a byline, I automatically feel like a girls episode.
Kate: Well try not to do any other girls episode ish things in this podcast, although maybe just podcasting feels very girls so we could be in it. We always start by asking our guests about a self-care practice that is important to them, and that can be absolutely anything. But is there something that you do that you consider self-care in your day-to-day life?
Allison: Yes. Well, there are two things. One, I hate admitting it, but there's this manifestation course called to Be Magnetic that I found through a friend of mine, but also it's on goop. It was like gofi. So I'm not the only one out there doing this, but it's this woman named Lacey who has a whole course of meditations to help you unblock the neural pathways of the obstacles that keep you from getting the life you want. And it's so woo woo and so I hate admitting to doing it, but the meditations really help. So I try and do those almost every day in the morning when I first wake up.
Doree: The peg for this interview is this big article you just wrote for New York Magazine, a cover story about what happens when your friends start having kids and you do not have kids. Kate and I both really enjoyed the article and I think had a lot of thoughts and questions about it. And I guess we're both kind of just wondering when did it come to you that this was more than just kind of a feeling that you were having and actually something that you wanted to go deep on? Journalistically?
Allison: I don't know. All of these stories, man, sometimes you just run out of ideas to write about things and you have quotas.
Kate: I've been there, yes.
Allison: I don't know, I just feel like I have a really, really good and close and maybe too close relationship with my editor Genevieve Smith. And oftentimes when we're sort of looking at the year ahead, we'll just get lunch and talk about our lives too. And so then when I start ranting about things, she'll generally say like, well, that seems like it could be a story. And then she'll toss it around the office and see if people get jazzed about it too. And when it comes to things that are more personal, essay E or first persony, I'm never sure that it should be a story this big or that it deserves all those journalistic it sometimes it just feels like a live journal thrown into a magazine. But once I started reporting and it felt like so many people had so much to say, it felt a little bit more worth the deep dive. Also, it's just a question that I had for myself. How do I make sure that I'm not torpedoing all my friendships by being a brat about their babies? So if I'm asking, somebody else has to be asking. But yeah,
Kate: I think everybody's asking, right? I'm a parent of two kids and Doree's a parent. And it really resonated with me. And I think it's a conversation that, as you mentioned, people without kids have with each other and people with kids have with each other, but narrow, the two shall meet. But now you've put them side by side in a way that I think is really important of digging into what is happening when some people decide to have children and some don't. And how are we secretly feeling about the other because there is a lot of pain and misunderstanding and sadness and grief and frustration that kind of enters those friendships. And I loved how you put this into words personally with your own experience, but also through the people that you interviewed. Was there anything that came up for you, whether about your own relationships or what you learned that really surprised you in these conversations?
Allison: Well, I'm not even sure if this made it in there, but I had this conversation with this one woman, Tasha, who I thought was great, and she's more on my side of things and doesn't have kids, feels sort of like, where are all my friends going? And the way that she sort of talked about her experiences and the grief with what she was, I mean, a lot of these interviews, even the most hilarious ones, ended up being sort therapy sessions. And I was like, how does a real therapist do this all day every day? I'm so tired. But I feel like she's said this thing about feeling trapped by nostalgia. And when she hangs out with her friends that have kids and she's not in the same place as them, instead of talking about their lives, honestly as they are now, they all sort of revert back to remember when, or remember when we used to do this coffee thing or go to this bar go dancing. And it makes her feel like nobody sees her and she can't see her friends clearly. And then I thought about how much honesty it takes to say, well, talking about the same three stories is not doing us any good. Let's just move on and admit that maybe we're not meant to be friends right now or we are, but we have to be a little bit more honest about things. That was just really eyeopening because you think nostalgia is such a joyous thing, we're just reminiscing and it's a good times. We'll feel all warm and fuzzy, but really her pointing out as a trap and the limitation was pretty eyeopening.
Doree: Well, and something else you just said kind of also resonated with me, which is this idea of maybe friendships are meant to kind of ebb and flow. Maybe there are seasons of life where we're going to be closer with certain people and then not as close and then closer with other people, and that's okay. And I think we've, I should speak for myself, I've kind of gotten into this maybe trap of being like, oh, well I haven't talked to her in three years. Guess we're not friends anymore when it's like, maybe we just weren't friends for those three years and maybe we will be friends again. You know what I mean? Instead of just kind of writing all of this off. So that's like, sorry, I just had this realization, which perhaps everyone has already had. But yeah, I mean one thing, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Allison: I was going to say it's disconcerting when friendships sort of ebb and flow because we opt into friendships. Yes, sponges are sticky and you build up history and the history means something. And it's so nice to be with people who have a full encyclopedia of you instead of newer friends who are just learning things and there's a shorthand, but we still opt in and you can still sort of say, that was a nice time. Who knows if it'll ever come back. And it's easier just to find new ways to fill the space than think about what it would mean to come back together. Sorry, I cut you off.
Doree: No, no. Yeah, I mean I think all of these things, I guess are things that you just kind of figure out as a grownup maybe. So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: Now I'm having a realization as a parent in talking about coming back to these friendships is in my brain, speaking of narcissism, I'm like, well, now I'm ready. My kids this age, but I've often neglected to remember that the other person has grown and had transformative experiences in their life that just don't involve having kids and acknowledging that I think is something I need to think about.
Allison: I love hearing that you've learned.
Doree: Yeah, this is a real, we're growing.
Kate: Have your friends, your friend group, because you bring your own personal experience into this in a way that I just really loved. Have you talked to them about this piece? And what do you anticipate the reaction being amongst the people in your life who you mentioned and who this is kind of about in a way?
Allison: Well, my friend Grace, who Doree knows, just sent me a text.
Doree: Kate knows her too.
Allison: Oh my gosh, okay.
Kate: Know too, I know Grace.
Allison: Grace was one of my very good friends from college and she was actually among the first to have a kid, but since she lives in LA and I live in New York, I didn't feel it quite as much, but she just sent me a text right before I got on that said, now I know what it feels like to be one of Taylor Swift's exes. Just like I was like, oh, you weren't even, I promise it's not even in here,
Doree: But the idea of her is in here, right?
Allison: Yes. The idea of her is in here and a lot of my friends, but just as an ethical journalist, I did talk to my friends a lot about what was going to be included before, and essentially my friend Liz, who sort of ended up being a backbone friendship of the piece, we had a lot of chats and I took her and another friend out to lunch on the magazine's dime to help with reporting. So I tried to really make it part of the process so that when the cover dropped, nobody was like, what the hell, Alison? So hopefully I'm not going to get any of those texts or emails, but I've been sort of dissociating all day, so I don't know what's going on. People could behave, I have no clue what's going on.
Doree: One thing that you wrote in the piece that I wanted to kind of unpack a little bit more if that's okay, is when you are talking about how at one point recently nine of your friends were pregnant and that you are able to pick up on all the signals now maybe the drink orders are changing, all that kind of stuff, and that you say, I felt judged as if my friends were treating my decision to remain child-free as transitional. Let's talk about that. Is that a conversation that you have had with your friends? Do you think they are actually judging you? Is this projection, what is this about?
Allison: It's probably mostly projection, maybe. I don't know. I think yes and no, right? Both things can be true. I'm projecting and I'm being judged. I feel like my friends, any good friends want me to have whatever it is I want out of life. And because they're so happy with their decisions to have children and they love their lives with their kids and their partners so much, and sometimes of course, do I want this? Do I want that? They just sort of offer up a way that's like if it's something you want, there are ways for you to get it. But it does feel like
Doree: As though you've never thought about that before
Allison: As if it's news to me, that guy.
Doree: Exactly. Right.
Allison: And so in those moments, and it feels like, I guess maybe they don't quite understand that it's not just sort, maybe I'll have a tuna salad sandwich, but the reason I'm not having a tuna salad sandwich is because I don't have bread. It's not about that. It's like I just dunno how I feel about tuna. And I think when you're so happy and so you've made one decision, it's very hard to think that somebody might not have any desire to make the same one. I think it's true. Anything, getting married, getting on date, I don't know. I think people, when they're confident in their decisions, they see a way forward to happiness for you too. And that's all they want from me is their friend. So I do feel like people in my life wonder, is she just saying that because she doesn't have bread? There's like a metaphor in there, for what the bread is,
Doree: That's like, I don't know. That feels like a generous way of framing it because I think also, yes, this feeling can come from confidence of them wanting you to be happy, but it can also come from insecurity of them needing you to reaffirm their decision. And this idea that you are not doing what they're doing is maybe a little scary for them. Why? What do you see that they don't? And maybe they're not that happy, right? Maybe they are struggling and it's like, well, I need affirmation in my choices. So I kind of see both sides of it there. Maybe my friends are more insecure and your friends are coming out from a place security.
Allison: No, it's just like, I'm sure I'm pissing my friends off enough this week, so maybe it's going to give them the most generous read possible. No, but I agree that you do want confirmation that you've done the right thing. And not to say me not having a kid or me deciding vocally that I don't want a kid is some sort of revolutionary decision. It's not. It's a combination of very mundane choices that led to one big choice. But it's true that anything that sort of feels against your own personal status quo can feel very much like a challenge or confrontation or a judgment on my side where I know that sometimes I've said to friends or maybe I've implied, I don't think I've ever directly said in the way that I have talked about other people to them or just my life in general, that I might be judging them for being so conventional or judging them for wanting the nuclear family or being so heteronormative. So it does go both ways where I'm sure that I've been a little self-righteous in my, I went to Barnard, this is why I like this.
Kate: But you also really capture, I think the envy, and you describe it so perfectly, that feeling of you can just choose whatever day you want, or the perception as a person with kids is that the people in their lives without kids are, they're just having their day. They can eat at midnight, they can eat at seven, they can take a nap. You that freedom.
Doree: Well, this just came up. There was just, did you, have you heard about this whole thing where this woman made a TikTok about what she did as a single woman?
Kate: Yes. And all the conservative bloggers went there.
Doree: Yes. Freaked out. And I mean, that felt like patriarchy, which is a whole other aspect of this.
Kate: I can see all these pieces kind of floating around. There's all these different kind of cultural touchpoints happening, but the connection I'm not really sure about. And that is just thinking kind of the larger thoughts about parenthood and how we view children and how we support or don't support parents and mothers and all these things kind of come into play in part of the conversation, but they're harder to dig into. And so I think sometimes it's easier to be like, Ooh, trad wives and not like, Ooh, the maternal death rate. It's just easier to, yeah, exactly right. It's Hard to dig into this stuff. I don't know if I have an answer either.
Allison: But then it's interesting because some of the reasons that I don't want kids, it's like I'm terrified to give birth as a black woman. And you hear sometimes I know, but I told my dad, he's a doctor, and I was like, dad, I can't believe it's really that bad. And he was like, yeah, no, it's really that bad. And I was like, if Beyonce and Serena Williams aren't safe to give birth and not almost die, I have no, you're just some in a hospital in Baltimore. You can't protect me. So I feel like the societal decks are stacked against me so much in terms of thinking about do I want to become a mom? Do I want to maybe almost die in a hospital, even though it's like we live in America. Do I want to bring a child into the world when it's melting all the time and or flooding and or catching on fire or freezing? Weirdly, there's all these really big questions that I can see as an inflection point for rushing towards trad wife or rushing towards I'm never going to procreate. And it's just a really weird time, I guess, and nobody knows what to do, so you just have to do what makes you happiest. And for some people, that's not a baby.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: Alison, I wanted to also ask, in an ideal world, how do you want your friends with kids to show up for you, and how do you ideally want to show up for them?
Allison: Yeah, that's a really good question. And I asked everybody that I interviewed that at the very end, and it's hard sometimes you have such a vague idea of show up that when you're asked the specifics you don't know. And I feel like the way that I want my friends to show up for me is just to maybe not suggest that I should have a baby on my own. That's step, step one. But mostly it's just like I, I guess it's the cheesy thing that I said in the piece that I still worry is still too packed, that you just want to feel a little bit prioritized in people's lives, even when it's hard to, and so that the bonds that you're investing in are getting a sort of return of, you mean a lot to me? I am going to pay a hundred bucks tonight so that you and I can go out to dinner and I can get a sitter, or I am going to remember to follow up about that thing you were complaining about in the text chain, but I was too busy at the moment to respond then because I was with my kid, and I'm going to explain to you, Hey, I'm sorry I was with my kid. Let's go back to that thing you were complaining about, even if it was stupid. And I think that's just the admitting that you're not going to do it perfectly and then saying, I didn't do it perfectly, but I'm here now is what we can all do. I think that people get really afraid to say, oh, I kind of messed that up. And they just sort of brush, I do this all the time. I sort of brush past it and try to get to the resolution before I acknowledged I've done something a little bit off. And so I think if you just stop and say, I was really busy. My kid just pissed on my foot, I couldn't respond to your text, now I'm going to respond. I think everything would be better. And then for me, I think my one friend who didn't make it into the story, I asked her, what are some frustrations you have with your friends like me who don't show up the way that you want them to? And she was like, I don't expect anyone to show up in any one way, but if you say, I want a relationship with your child, I do expect that, then you'll try. You'll come over when I'm at home and have a play date with the both of us. Or it's not just like the kid is there when you're there and you're having lots of wine and ignoring his existence, you're interacting with him and building your own little bond with him. And I see how that can be difficult to ask someone or to be asked of someone. But I do think that is one way I want to show up for my friends is that I would like their kid to recognize me, that I'm part of their little family here, part of their parents' lives, and that does take some getting over my own like, Ugh, this is inconvenient for me to come over here at four and hang out and play blocks instead of getting wine. So that, and also trying to get more into the interior, intimate side of their parent experience where I'm not just sort of parachuting in and then parachuting out and not understanding why things are hard for them. I just want to know the same way. I know I knew all of the details of their relationships when we were 25. What is their life like now? Sorry, that was really rambling, but
Kate: Get it. No, I thought it was lovely. And I think it's also, I think you touched on this a little bit, it can be weird as an adult to try to connect with a child big time. And I'm a parent and sometimes I'm like, I don't know what to say to this kid. It's awkward. It feels weird. And it's also not for everybody.
Allison: And I feel weird when parents are like, oh, give Allison a hug. I'm like, they don't have to do that. It's not going to hurt my feelings when they don't. But it might make them feel weird,
Doree: Kate. I feel like I don't necessarily relate to other kids, you know what I mean? And then sometimes I see other parents relating to my son in a way that I'm like, oh, that's a cool way.
Kate: Yeah, just you have a kid or kids doesn't necessarily make you good at being with kids. It is weird and hard and a skill that's like we are just supposed to one day someone has a kid and we're supposed to know how to handle it and hug it or hold it. I don't know. Kids are weird.
Allison: Kids are weird.
Kate: Okay, well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Doree: Could we switch gears a little bit, as much, I mean, I feel like there is so much more to say about this topic and this article, which everyone should just go read.
Kate: It's so good, read it.
Doree: But Alison, while we have, you have profiled some of the iconic people of our time, and I'd love to just hear a little bit about your process when it comes to profiling someone like say Meghan Markle, just as an example.
Kate: Emily Henry, maybe
Allison: Loved Emily Henry. I mean, my approach to Emily Henry and Meghan Markle and Cardi and Lena, it's also, and Noah. Well, maybe no, Cincinnati was different because I had such a weird crush on him. It was really hard for me to overcome my own brain, but I just try and remember you're just a person too. And so I'm just there to observe and ask and translate best as I can what it's like to be in the room with you as a person. And that's been my guiding principle for all of those things. And then it also soothes my nerves when I'm like, stop and remember, oh crap, that's Mariah Carey. That's not actually just a person that's Mariah Carey. But if I remember, she's just a person. Everybody else, the most crass way of putting it is I remind myself that everybody poops. That's sort of my entry point into celebrity profiles is everybody poops just here to find out how.
Kate: Oh my gosh. I've never thought about Mariah Carey pooping, but now, but it's true.
Allison: I know. Yes. Sorry.
Kate: As a person who covers pop culture and covers these iconic figures, what do you kind of see as the state of pop culture here in September of 2023 coming off of the Barbie, Barb Heimer, Taylor Swift's tour, Beyonce's tour? Where are you seeing things pop culture wise?
Allison: I'm so confused by pop culture in a way that's almost paralyzing, and I find that I'm, it's just interesting, these big sort of billboard moments of the summer of feeling very us grasping for 2012 in a way where culture sort of made sense and was optimistic. Beyonce and Taylor Swift being the big headlining tours. It wasn't 2012 and Beyonce was that Lemonade? No, that was the year that she had feminism on the screen when she performed at the MBAs, right? Or the VMAs. Was that that year?
Kate: Was that I don't remember who runs the World Girls that year.
Allison: Oh, I'm like
Kate: 2016. I think Lemonade is 2016.
Allison: Lemonade is 2016. Yeah, because it was,
Kate: But 2012 is when she dropped that album by Surprise. I was at work and we were all frantically covering it. Yes. Okay.
Allison: Yeah. And then she stood in front of that big sign that said Feminist in Hot Pink,
Kate: and we were all like, yes.
Allison: Yeah. So it's funny to me back in that moment where it's like Beyonce and Taylor Swift in these twin pillars of pop culture that feels almost bygone, but we still just want to feel that good. And the same with Barbie where I was not the biggest Barbie fan, and I found a lot of the big broad, this is why this movie matters, strokes to me really annoying and retrograde in a way. But I do think it's funny that we just wanted it so badly that made, we're willing to ignore a lot of things. It's fine. And I'm just excited to see what's going to happen because it can't remain this fractured and it can't remain this sort of, everything's the Netflix model where fine is good enough. That's kind of what everything in pop culture feels like. Nothing's truly exciting, which is why we're going back to our big tent poles to provide excitement. And I'm curious what's going to happen once the strike comes back or once the gull gets off strike and people start releasing things again, what the corrective to all of this is going to start to be, because we need to be excited about stuff again And optimistic and have fun, but what does that even mean? Let's figure it out.
Doree: Who's your dream profile? Or is there a profile that, what's the profile that got away, a profile that you've maybe tried to set up that just never happened, or someone who is like, you would love to profile them, but it just hasn't happened yet for whatever reason?
Allison: That's a really good question. That changes all the time. But for a while, the one that got away most recently was Drew Barrymore. I was so curious about her turn into our newest talk show gurus and what it meant about our cultural vulnerability and all of a sudden the therapy words being the thing. But I don't even know if I have a celebrity that I would love to profile anymore because I do find celebrity to be a little like, what's going on? It's not as exciting, but I'm trying to think of an archetype of a person that I would really want to profile that answers a big cultural question. I think that's what I'm always trying to do in profiles is just answer a question about where we are as a society. Not to sound pretentious, but that's how that pretentious, sorry. I guess right now I'm so interested. One of my favorite profiles of all time was this New York Times magazine profile Dr. Drew when he was doing celebrity rehab because there was no better deep dive into his psyche and then reality TV, psyche and then America's Psyche because of what he was building with that awful show. And so I'm sort of looking for a figure like that because all of these weird dating shows have to have onset therapists or something. There's a person in that world that I'm just curious to explain some of this little toxicity that's permeating reality TV culture, and that's an archetype I'm seeking right now. I just want to understand where the rot is right now.
Doree: He's been profiled a lot, but I do feel like a deep check-in with Andy Cohen kind of needs to happen, especially after all the Vanderpump stuff and his role behind He's the puppet master. Right.
Allison: That's a good point.
Doree: So get on that please for me.
Allison: But Taffy did that Andy Cohen profile, and I was like, can't ever touch that again. And then also,
Doree: but that was years ago.
Allison: That's true. But I don't know. I still remember it. I still remember it. I can't do it.
Kate: Alison, how did you come to where you are as a writer? I know everybody's like, what's your journey? But I think it's such a skill and a specific kind of writing to really explore culture through profiling one person or kind of one unique experience. Is this something that's always interested you as both a reader and a writer? Is it something you kind of fell into? I would love to know just how professionally this world has, how you got here.
Allison: Oh man. It's been a really messy ride. Buckling in there we go. Buckle up. I guess not even that messy. I was just at once. I was really, really bad at this. So I went to J school, I went to journalism school. I went to Berkeley and walked out of Berkeley thinking I was going to be a capital W writer right away, even though I had no idea what it was like to have a job. And I started at Elle and as an assistant, and again, came in thinking I was going to write deep investigative reported features, and everyone was like, you're an assistant and also you don't know what you're doing. And so those first years at Elle was really, really messy where I was way too ambitious and always chipping over my feet and always messing things up. But one of the things that I found I was good at was those 800 word feature Well things when Carrie Washington had 12 pages of modeling fall coats, and they just needed a little interview right there at the beginning to justify the 12 pages of fall coats. And those were always really fun to write. I think someone pointed out, because generally people were pointing out things that I was not doing very well. The one time somebody said, you're good at this was those little interviews. And then I started reading a lot of profiles and I was like, oh, profiles are not just about a person. They're about why we care about the person. And I don't know why that A was news to me, B, why that fascinates me so much. And I like to think I was a psych minor, and so that means that I really want to understand people. And so then when I got to the cut, I just sort of kept trying to do profiles and all of the writers I admired were really good at profiles. And so I guess I sort of fell into it, and I still don't really understand, this is going to sound ridiculous, but I still don't really understand why I'm good at it other than I don't have boundaries. And that seems to be why people say things to me. And then I got lucky a little bit. I like to make jokes. And those two things together have worked out. I dunno if that answers your question at all it, but that's great. Yeah, it wasn't like I always knew. I just sort of fell into something that someone told me I was good at and then I kept going.
Kate: Well, sometimes also it's hard to see the things that we are our brains are naturally attuned to doing. You're just kind of like, I just know how to do this, and it can feel so natural. We don't realize it's an actual skill that a lot of people don't have.
Doree: Well, also the whole world and art of celebrity profiling has changed so much. Now you have celebrities like Beyonce and Taylor Swift who have just removed themselves from the whole apparatus of celebrity profiles. They're like, we don't need to do this anymore. We are going to do it in our own way. Which 20 years ago was not the case. Even the Beyonces and Taylor Swift still needed the celebrity profiles. So I think in a way, as journalists, that has made our jobs harder because celebrities have so many more avenues to get their specific message out in the way that they want to get it out. And then if you do get to profile them, often it's like you get an hour at a lunch and it's like you don't get the days of access driving in the desert. People got in the past,
Allison: I know Jessica Press with Channing Tatum on a camping trip. That will never happen again for us.
Doree: Right? Yeah.
Allison: And it's almost like I don't blame them. It's invasive. It's, it's weird to have somebody just sitting there watching you.
Kate: That's weird.
Allison: And I know that's one of the things that I always try to do in profiles is when I ask for access, I'm like, okay, I want the sit down interview obviously, but give me a day where I'm just writing shotgun in their lives, and then all of a sudden it's like if I were them and I had a me just sitting there being like, oh, I would be So, it's horrible. I hate that I have to do that to people, but also to your point, I know we've had years of is the celebrity profile dead questions? And then somebody writes a really great profile and then we're like, no, it's not. Look, it still can be done, but frankly, the fight to get those profiles,
Kate: Oh my God,
Allison: It's too much for my sensitive old ass. So part of me is really now trying to figure out what does my career as a magazine writer look like without that as my bread and butter.
Doree: When does your book come out?
Allison: I'm still very much in, when I started the book three years ago, I sold, it was Covid, and so trying to write a book about sex and the lived experience of sex during a very darkly sexist time, societally, but also in my life was a challenge. And so I basically have restarted the book and I'm deep in second attempt of this book, so it will not be out until 2025, which is an exhausting thought for someone who sold it in 2020, but it only gets better with age.
Doree: Exactly. It's what it's,
Kate: Alison, before we let you go, we haven't asked interviewees this in a while, but do you have any skincare products that you love that you might want to share with us?
Allison: Ooh, yes. Okay. I started going to Sophie Pavitt. She's a facialist here in New York, and she has this serum, I have to look it up. I'm sorry. I forgot the actual name of it. It'll take me two seconds. Sophie Pavitt serum, and it's saved my skin. I have have problems skin. I'm always breaking out, and I have PCOS, so my hormones are crazy. My chin's always breaking out, and this serum has made everything so much better. It's called the Mandelic Clearing Serum, and it feels like very Gen Z friendly packaging, so I feel cool and young when I use it. Oh, I'm 24, look at me. But it's also making my skin look like it's 24 in the good way.
Kate: I love this. I've never, is this by Sophie Pavitt herself? This is themselves. Ooh, okay.
Allison: Sophie Pavitt. Look at that.
Doree: You're very Gen Z friendly.
Kate: It is that yellow?
Allison: Yeah, that yellow. Yeah. I also love the star face patches. Those are really,
Kate: And that brand is also that exact yellow.
Allison: Exactly. You'll find me on flights. It's like dotted with Star Face and it's like, yeah, I have acne at 37. What? It's fine.
Kate: Gen Z says, this is fine. It's fine. Alison, this has been really, really so great to get to talk to you. Thank you for doing this. In addition to finding your work in New York Magazine, where can our listeners find you, learn more about you, follow along with your work and life?
Allison: Oh, yeah. Well, I'm Instagram. I'm @BabyMeatballs. It's hard to find me on Instagram because of that weird, random name, but it's Baby Meatballs. And I'm Alison p Davis on Twitter, but I don't tweet that much anymore. Other than that, you'll have to just find me in person. I'm sorry.
Kate: That sounds great. After the last few years. Yes, please.
Allison: Yeah, I'm just find a bar in Fort Green, and it's generally where I'm so
Kate: Doree and I both once lived in Fort Green.
Allison: Oh yeah. That's great. I think I knew that about you, Doree. Not know that about you,
Kate: but I was on a Delphi between Myrtle and Willoughby 20 years ago, many years ago.
Allison: It's changed so much, but still a great neighborhood.
Kate: Yeah. Well, Allison, thank you so much.
Doree: Thank you, Allison. Allison, she's just so cool.
Kate: Yeah, I mean, she really, I think she just does a really, I don't want to say she has her finger on the pulse so hokey, but I do feel like she is a true journalist of culture and the ways in which celebrity and identity and all these things kind of intertwine human full of wisdom. I was very excited to get to talk to her. Also, big Dick Energy. You got to brag about that.
Doree: Totally
Kate: coining that term. I tell you what, and I just used Big Dick Energy in our conversation on our Patreon podcast, season one, talking about Seth Cohen. Thank you, Alison. It's really coming full circle, and if you want to hear us recap the oc, do join our Patreon because wow, I have a lot of thoughts on Seth Cohen, and they change from week to week.
Doree: They really do.
Kate: I'm on a rollercoaster with that guy. It's like, do I love him? Do I hate him? I don't know. I truly don't know right now. I like him.
Doree: It changes every week.
Kate: It does. Which is why we're recapping that show. Well, we found ourself at our weekly intentions, which we do every week, and I'll just jump in with my own, because last week I wanted to have more patience with my kids, and I can't even tell you how badly I failed at this. Failed at it so hard that I found myself, and this is vulnerable and I'm going to share it.
Doree: Can't wait.
Kate: Falling into the ways in which I argue with my husband, the not productive ways, like the trap, the arguing traps that you find yourself in the patterns. Oh, doing that with one of my kids. The shit I said to her in a heated moment.
Doree: Oh interesting.
Kate: I was like, oh my God. Oh no.
Doree: Yeah, but you know what, Kate, it's really good that you recognize that.
Kate: I mean, I agree. Thank you. And I did, I explained I'm feeling grouchy and I'm having a hard time, and here's why. And we talked it out, but I had some really kind of shitty parenting moments this week.
Doree: I'm sorry.
Kate: That's okay.
Doree: It's hard.
Kate: It's human. It's hard.
Doree: Of course,
Kate: this week I want to really try, I think I've mentioned this a lot lately, but I am really trying to get some meditation and daily, it is helping a lot with my anxiety. So I did it this morning. I did it yesterday. I'm just trying to, it doesn't need to be every day, but just kind of make it something consistent.
Doree: Love that. Kate,
Kate: how about you, Dore?
Doree: Well, my intention last week was just high holidays, and I did go to services for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is coming up this weekend indeed, planning on going to services. I did get a friend to go with me on Rosh Hashanah, which just made it, it just makes it better. And Henry got really into doing apples and honey. So I feel like generally it was all things considered. It was a decent Rosh Hashanah, and I've been invited to a break fast for right after Yom Kippur, so I'm feeling good about that. I think Covid really made a period that already feels fraught, feel even more fraught because we weren't doing stuff in person and now we're coming out of it, and that is feeling good. Not that Covid has gone away, but we we're coming out of these restrictions this week, Kate. We kind of recorded some things out of order. So something that I talked about on the Patreon episode that we just recorded with Jackie is that I finally am getting rid of some of the baby clothes. I'm selling some of the baby clothes that the nice baby clothes that I'd been saving. And it feels really good just physically to get rid of all that stuff. And then also psychologically and also financially. And so I want to just continue that momentum of freeing myself.
Kate: That's big.
Doree: It is big
Kate: and really intense, so I see you.
Doree: Thank you, Kate. Well, listen everybody also, it feels like that intention is appropriate for the conversation we had with Alice.
Kate: Seriously, I know both of my last weeks, and you're, this week's weird.
Doree: Yep, yep, yep. Well, thanks everyone for listening. Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Bye everybody.
Kate: Bye.