Episode 279: Keeping Up With Jackie (Johnson)
Kate and Doree bring back fan favorite Jackie Johnson for a third time! The Queen of Creams chats with them about her undying love of expensive creams, her zig-zagging path since moving to Hollywood, and why she thinks women should get a stipend, hunny!
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts.
Doree: We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: Well, Doree. Hello.
Doree: Hello, Kate.
Kate: Greetings. Greetings to everyone listening. Hope you are getting through the season of heat and Wild Rain, depending on where you live in the United States or elsewhere in the world. Goodness gracious.
Doree: I know, right?
Kate: It's either smoky, it's either hot or it's raining.
Doree: Yeah, it's like what is happening?
Kate: I mean, I think we know what's happening and it's not great.
Doree: No, it's true. It's not great at all.
Kate: Well, hopefully you can come to this podcast to escape the doomsday scenario existing in our weather patterns right now, and we'll try to also do that in talking to each other.
Doree: Well, we're going to kind of just get right into it today because we had so much fun talking to our guest.
Kate: Oh, I just love this person so much. She's so wonderful.
Doree: She's truly the best.
Kate: So let's share today that our guest is Jackie Johnson. I feel like every time I talk to Jackie, it's like I'm talking to her for the first time, and she's had such, she's been with us on the show at such different moments in her life.
Doree: Yes, Yes.
Kate: It's really incredible. Now, if you have not heard the name Jackie Johnson before, she is a podcaster and creator and host of the Iconic Beauty Podcast, natch Butte. She is a comedian, a writer, a southern bell from Dallas, Texas. She's a performer. She's known for her deep booming voice. She has one beauty pageants and the singing category as a young person.
Doree: She's really amazing.
Kate: She's incredible. And she's also an iHeartRadio Podcast award winner for Natch Butte in the fashion and beauty category. And she has a new podcast that she has recently created called Jackie's Hole, which is very funny. I couldn't think of the name. I was trying to describe her as the Garrison Keeler of podcast, like new podcasts that did not come out well when we were talking about this on in our interview. But Jackie is podcasting and creating over on Patreon, and she's just a brilliant light and so open about everything, and we just adore her. So before we share our interview and conversation with Jackie, just a reminder that you can find all info about the show on our website Forever35podcast.com. You can find more content and conversation happening on our Patreon at patreon.com/forever35. You can find our favorite products at Shopmy.us/forever35. And if you want to reach us, please do leave us a voicemail or send us a text message at (781) 591-0390. You can also email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. All right, we'll be right back. Okay. Look, I, I'm over. I'm overjoyed by our guest today because we have a true legend on the pod and a thrice timed guest. It's Jackie Johnson.
Doree: You're in rare company to be a three time guest.
Kate: Three times is pretty high
Jackie: And you know what, three totally separate chapters of my life. Completely.
Kate: Yes. Jackie.
Jackie: It's like I'm not even coming back because I'm a different person than I was the last two times.
Kate: I'm so excited to touch on this. As I was remembering the last time you were on the podcast. It was four years ago.
Jackie: It was dark time.
Kate: Doree was on maternity leave, and you and I sat down and you were in the middle of beginning divorce proceedings, essentially.
Jackie: Yes. And I was sobbing my face off and I was a mess, but I was a positive mess.
Kate: You were clear.
Jackie: Yes.
Kate: You were so clear about yourself and your needs and your life, and it was really moving. It was an extremely moving conversation. And now here you are, four years later, married with a child, like an award winning my podcaster.
Jackie: I'm in my own office, honey.
Kate: Yes. Oh, which I've been in your house is one of the most cool, beautifully decorated places I've ever been in.
Jackie: Oh my gosh.
Kate: Well, look, let's start, let's backtrack for a second.
Jackie: Okay.
Kate: And just start at the Forever35 launching Pad, which is asking our guests about a current self-care practice in their life.
Jackie: Oh man.
Kate: What is that for you? It's right now, listen, does it exist?
Jackie: Things are different around here, that's for sure. I would say the Kardashians, I'm sorry, I'm going there.
Kate: The new Hulu version of the show.
Jackie: Yeah. Listen, I get about two hours a week now of just, I can sit on the couch and eat something disgusting and just watch something disgusting and that's it. So I really savor that. And last night I did that. I watched the Kardashians on Hulu, and lemme tell you something, I was tearing up because this particular episode, they were recording their Christmas album and all of them were in the recording booth together cutting up. And Kris was in there, and I said to my husband, I go, do I have to have another kid? Because the comradery among the siblings is inspiring. I'm just going to say it. Kris Jenner loves her children and she supports all of them so unconditionally. And it truly is inspiring to see as a mother, as a per I'm, I just think she's figured something out. And the fact that all those daughters rally with each other through everything, I'm like, damn it. I don't want another, I don't want do another kid, but do I have to?
Doree: Do you think it's unconditional though?
Jackie: Yes.
Doree: Don't you think, you do?
Jackie: Yes.
Doree: I don't think she has a little bit more love for whoever's bringing in the most money at the time
Kate: For Kim. Right. I thought Kim was like the favorite.
Jackie: Apparently Kylie is the favorite, which makes sense. That's what she,
Doree: Kylie is the favorite.
Kate: Yeah.
Jackie: I don't know. Maybe there is something to that, but all I know is that it's a beautiful family. I don't know, it's not perfect, But I just am inspired by it. And I really respect Kris Jenner and they're entertaining. I don't know. Listen, this is my self-care right now. This is it. I'm being honest.
Kate: You know what? No, no. And it is valid, and I think it is a lot of people's self-care, number one. But we often, I think, get into the same trap that happens a lot of times with the concept of trash TV or trashy book or a beach read or whatever, assigning some sort of moral value to the media or the culture we consume. We're ultimately, it's what we get out of it. That is the what lasts, what matters. Doesn't matter necessarily what the thing is as long as it works for you.
Jackie: You're right, Kate. I'm over here judging myself. I'm always, but the thing is
Kate: No, no, you're not. No, you're not.
Doree: Don't judge yourself.
Jackie: The thing is, I understand the issues with the Kardashians. I don't follow any of them on the Instagram.
Kate: Totally.
Jackie: I don't believe in private jets. I see all the stuff they're doing wrong. I see it, but when I'm dead ass tired and I now know on the other side of motherhood the tiredness that I didn't even know existed, that I now daily experience. Sometimes I just want to plot my ass down and stare at some hot women in fights and living their glamorous lives. Sometimes I just need that.
Kate: Yeah. We all have something. That really makes us feel it's good in a way that nothing else can provide.
Jackie: The fact that Travis and Kourtney lick each other's mouths. I hate that. But I can't stop watching it.
Kate: They lick each other's mouths? Oh, they, is that a kiss?
Jackie: They are very p d a. They open mouth it, their wedding kiss. They're like,
Kate: Okay.
Jackie: In front of the whole. And I'm like, you know what? Everyone there expected this.
Kate: Everyone there expected it. Wait, Jackie, I mean,
Doree: I could do a whole episode just analyzing Travis and Kourtney's relationship.
Jackie: Yeah.
Doree: I will refrain.
Kate: Well, can I ask a question on this topic that I had for kind of saving later in our conversation, but I think it connects because you are a huge Blink 182 fan.
Jackie: Yes.
Kate: And you were at the concert where kourtney Announced to Travis and the world with a sign that she is pregnant.
Doree: I mean, she was already showing.
Kate: He knew. He knew, right.
Jackie: Of course he knew. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate: Just confirming. But I wondered if you could touch on a little bit about spec, maybe even specifically Blink 182 as a self-care and something that's been meaningful for you for many years, but also kind of like Popp Punk is self-care, especially I think for millennials.
Jackie: This is so important. Kate, I, I'm so honored. I feel blood rushing to my brain from this question.
Kate: I love it. I'm so proud.
Jackie: It really, it just boils down to midlife crisis. It boils down to my 20 year high school reunion is this year, and I'm reliving the jollies of my youth. It when I was 16, 17, 15, that's when Blink 182 had their two biggest albums. I bought them, I listened. All the hot guys in my school knew the words. I'd go to the concerts, I'd be in the pit at the Smirnoff Center in Dallas.
Kate: Oh my God.
Jackie: Just moshing around
Kate: That's an amazing name. Okay.
Jackie: Yes. I don't know what it's is now, but they lose their licenses. We have a staple center coming back a little la
Kate: Oh, do we? I miss this.
Jackie: crypto.com Lost the license.
Kate: Thank God.
Jackie: I know.
Kate: That was the worst. I never called it that.
Jackie: It worst. No, it was still Staples, let's be honest. So I loved Blink 182, and then it dipped out a little bit. It dipped out. I'll say I was a little bit of a Fairweather friend. I definitely wasn't keeping up with them as much. And then once they had their resurgence, I got back on board and been, I went and saw them in 2018 in Vegas. I saw them in 2019 at a festival. And then I just saw them again a couple months ago in LA in 2023. If you would've told me in 2001 when I saw them when I was 16, that I'd be seeing them at 38. And I wouldn't, would've been like, what? But here we are. It's midlife crisis textbook. I play the Sims every day too. Who knew that was going to happen?
Doree: I have a friend who is right around your age. I think she may be a year or two younger. And she's also a diehard Blink 182 fan. And she went to the concert the second night, and she's very pregnant. She's about to have a baby. And she wrote, Travis, I'm pregnant on her phone.
Kate: Oh. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yep. It's
Doree: Very good.
Kate: Do you feel a connection to Teen Jackie? Do you feel like a kindred connection?
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Or kind of almost like a maternal affection toward that person that you were,
Jackie: So when I was young, I was a little kid. My mother would drink red wine and listen to her records, and she would just be sitting in our, we had a kind of patio room, and she would just be in there in her bathrobe listening to the Beatles, listening to Linda Ronstand with her wine. And I remember my sister and I were little judge judies, and we were like, what's mom doing in there? Oh my God. And then a few years ago, I remember I got really high. I took an edible and I just was watching YouTube videos of music videos from my youth that I loved. And then I go, oh my God, I'm my mother. I'm my mother. It happened. I was transporting myself back to that time because music is, I hear a song. I instantly go back to that memory. I remember saying My name by Destiny's Child was a song playing on my way to high school for the first time in my sister's car. Just little moments like that. So for sure, it's definitely bringing me back to those feelings, those vibes. I've been listening to Incubus a lot lately, which again is another band from my high school years. And I mean, it's fucking textbook. I am a cliche. I am my mother drinking the wine. I am listening to my songs of my youth. It's just the way it is. And you know what? It's lovely
Doree: Just the way it is.
Jackie: Yes. It's really lovely. I'm sorry. I judged you mom. Pour me a glass.
Kate: It's weird how all of a sudden as you age, you start to have new empathy. I mean, maybe not everybody, but I know I have new moments of empathy for my parents where I'm like, oh God,
Jackie: A hundred percent. No. I talked to my mom. I talked to my mom. Her birthday was July 7th, which is Ringo's birthday, and
Kate: lucky her Beatles fan.
Jackie: I know. And I was telling her my son had diarrhea for 10 days straight. It was really stressful. I mean, I had to bring diapers into the doctor things, parenting, achievement, unlocked, whatever. And she was like, oh, that used to happen to you. And I'm like, this woman I'm talking to on the phone took care of me when I was tiny like that. And I remember calling her right after I'd had my kid, and I was having a very hard time emotionally. And I was going, thank you for doing this for me. And it was a very healing moment for sure. And I also said I was sorry. I was like, I'm sorry that you had to do this. And she was like, it's okay.
Kate: Oh
Jackie: Yeah. I'm sure we've all been there too. That's so intense.
Kate: Yeah.
Jackie: Yeah, for sure. Intense.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and will be right back.
Kate: Well, what has life been like for you since the last time we spoke? I know as your friend and person who follows your life, I know that many things have happened, but if you can kind of summarize your growth or if someone's like, I'm going to listen to the first two episodes of the Jackie was on Forever35. And then listen to this one. What is the television series of your life that ran during this time?
Jackie: Oh my gosh. So much, much healing. So much therapy. I married the wrong person, and I had to figure out why I did that. And I also realized that I very deeply in my body wanted to be a mommy so bad. And I think that dream had been gaslit out of me so much that I didn't even really remember that. And so I said that if I just, like I said on y'all show, I was like, if I want this to happen, I'm going to do whatever I can to make it happen, which means a lot of self work and healing. And because of all that work, I attracted the person that I felt comfortable procreating with, and I felt safe, finally really felt safe. I thought I did before I wasn't safe. And from there and all of the work I did, I healed and I hustled, and I met someone, and we built a beautiful life together. The life I've always dreamed of having. And I had my son, and you both know the just profoundly sacred experience of having a baby and being a mom, but also just how fucking hard it is. I have watched so many women in my life become moms, women who I thought I was close to and saw first hand, but it ain't nothing like the real thing, baby. I definitely had a rough year. The first year was rough. And now on the other side of the year, I'm starting to feel like myself, quotes again. And then I'm like, but you'll never be the same, really. And it's been a really wild, beautiful experience. And I look forward to the rest of it happening and blooming. Although I also miss those crazy days that I never thought I would miss me being a human bassinet for four months. My son slept on me exclusively. It was not fun. There were days where I was like, is this ever going to End? I just So stressed out and just wanting to lay down so bad. I just wanted to lay so bad and sleep. And now I'm like, I miss when he was so tiny.
Kate: I know. I know
Jackie: What a weird fuck. What a mind fuck.
Kate: I know. It's so much. It's like the missing and the grief over what's done. But then also in the moment, it didn't want it to be happening. It's all that stuff is very confusing.
Doree: And it seems, I mean, the whole days are long, but the years are short, which actually Kim Kardashian just posted on her Instagram.
Jackie: Oh my God,
Kate: She's wise.
Doree: It's like, it is so true. And especially when you're in those first few months, and I know you had a particularly kind of rough go of it, but then it's just over that part of it. That part of it is just over and it's not going to happen again like that.
Jackie: And you spend so many hour. I read every book. I did all these classes. It's like, I'm an expert now on baby rearing. And I'm like, I can never use that again. All of that for nothing.
Doree: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty wild. Well, and I mean, you also had some big transitions professionally.
Jackie: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's fair to say. I would say. Yeah. I guess I didn't even touch on that. So I was doing my podcast attribute for almost six years. Yeah.
Kate: You started attribute before we started Forever35
Doree: Yeah. Way before.
Jackie: And it was going really well. It was really fun. And the podcast business kept changing and and I would say changing for the worst, the level of show I had. And it happened slowly. I think The pandemic was the first kind of hit, and then navigating the networks and production of it all. And then I decided to have a baby. And at that point I was running my show by myself. I was the one person operation behind everything. I was the editor, the producer, the booker, the talent, the researcher, the social media correspondent, the assistant. I did out all of it,
Kate: Ad sales,
Jackie: All I was, all of it. And I took a little break, obviously, and I didn't have a co-host, so I tried to have some fill-in hosts, and I did that. And then I started getting antsy, being like, I got to come back. I got to come back. I'm ready. I'm ready. See, I'm ready. I'm ready. And I came back. And then I realized a couple months in that I wasn't ready. And I was having a really hard time just postpartum. I was having a really hard time. And also leaving took a big dip from my listenership. And I was busting my ass and I wasn't making the money enough to even pay my nanny to watch my child so that I could do my job. So I made a tough decision to end my show. And I wasn't necessarily planning on ending it forever, but it was just a pause. I had not taken a week off in six years. So yeah, I paused it. And then one night I was having one of my, what am I doing with my life conversations that I would have with my Spectra one breast pump every couple weeks because I would be feeling good. I'd like, look, I got six ounces out. Oh my God, I'm a milky queen. And then I'd get two ounces out and I'd be like, I'm a failure to mothers. I'm a like it. That was the rage.
Kate: Oh, the breast pump is psychologically a mind fuck.
Jackie: Yes. And obviously I was being really hard on myself, but that was what would happen if I got a lot out. I would feel very accomplished if I didn't. I would feel like, so one night I didn't get that much out and I'm crying about my life. And I go into my bedroom and I lay my head down, and all of a sudden I open my eyes and I say, Jackie's hole Jackie's hole. And I'm like, Jackie's hole. What is Jackie's hole? Why did the universe just give me this Jackie's hole? And then I realized Jackie's Hole is my next project. And I started coming up with all these ideas for Jackie's Hole. Jackie's Hole is like, if I could do anything with my life, what would it be? I was like, it's hole. Everybody comes down to Jackie's Hole to talk shit, Unwind, hang out. We play games, we have characters. We do a hoedown. We all sing. So I tried to do that. I produced the pilot of it myself and thought it was going to be the biggest thing that's ever happened to the world. And it was going to be just this big fun thing. It was, but it just didn't turn out to be a monetary hit. And this is in terms of podcasts. And I realized through all my meetings, through with almost every single podcast network in the world, that it's just not the market right now. Things are not great. And everyone's being extremely risk averse due to the market. And so it just didn't happen. And then I said, okay, I need to reassess. And guess what? Months and months have gone by. I cannot believe how quickly time is flying. Today is Friday. It feels like I woke up on Monday. It was Monday a couple hours ago. It's time is flying. So in terms of my career, I'm kind of at this weird crossroads, standstill moment. And I'm not sure what's next, but I'm in a boat with a lot of people right now. The entire entertainment industry is at a standstill right now. I'm sure both of your husbands are sitting at with the picket signs. There's a lot going on. So I'm not alone.
Kate: Yeah, it's a weird time for sure. Yeah. I mean, we can speak to that and relate as people, podcasters who are not Jason Bateman. And but also, yes, both our partners are picketing. Are you in SAG?
Jackie: Yeah. I'm Union Strong. Yeah. I've had a little upset tummy. Like I said, my son gave me something, but as soon as I'm feeling better, I'm out there. Sweetie,
Kate: You can't go to walk a picket line while having diarrhea.
Jackie: No.
Kate: Because if you have to, shit. If you have to run somewhere to poop, I, I've been out a couple times with Anthony and it's like there's not a good spot. So you take care of your tummy.
Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. It's been rough. I'm not going to lie to you the whole, you get sick when you have a kid thing. I thought I had a couple more years. I was like, until he's in school. But no, the Norovirus has hit me multiple times.
Doree: Oh no, no.
Jackie: If I take him to a birthday party, I just know it's going to happen. The ball pit is just where it is and
Doree: Oh, no. Ball pit.
Jackie: The ball pit. Yeah. It's just not a cute look. And I guess my stomach and my immune system need to be heightened as well. So everybody's just shitting around here. Sorry,
Kate: Jackie, can I ask you a follow-up kind of question that I think, because I, I'm sure most people who listening are not pod professional in the podcasting space we are or have been. But I do think people can really relate to this feeling of either creating something or starting and getting a job you're really excited about. And this feeling of you just gave your all in many ways and it not turning out the way you anticipated and what that processing that and how we still can find such value in those experiences, even if it's not measured through money. Slash we also have to make a living. I did. Was there kind of an an experience for you after, because also I watched your initial Jackie's whole pilot. It was very funny. I feel like you have a garrison. It's like, it's what I wanted that Garrison Keeler show to be that I hated so much. I don't remember the name of that show. People in Lakes in Minnesota.
Jackie: I don't even know who that is. Oh yeah, yeah. It's been compared to that.
Kate: Yes. But it's like the fun you version of that. But what was kind of, as a creative person and an entrepreneur and a person who takes ownership of her business in this way, what has been your emotional experience of that?
Jackie: Well, luckily, I have been in Los Angeles for 17 years and I moved here. Not an nepo baby. My father sells furniture in Texas. I knew not a soul. And every single thing I've ever gotten out here, I clawed and kicked my way to get it. So I've been rejected. I have been to my face, told I'm this and that. I've been just through the muck. So it honestly didn't really deter me at all because at this point, I'm Teflon. I've had, you know, don't survive in this town. And you both are nepo babies. You don't survive in this town without getting the thickest skin that you can ever have. And I've been through it with, I mean, name it, we've all been there. The internet hates you. This person hates you. This happened. This is par for the course, sweetie. And honestly, I know, I guess through all my self work and also through aging and whatnot, that I know I'm great. I know I'm fucking good. I know I'm a great podcast host. No one can take that from me. If you look at my downloads and you see that only 700 people listen to whatever, and I just made that up. I didn't really get 700 downloads, but some episodes probably got around that. And that's great. 700 people listen to me. That's great. I'm just saying the numbers don't equate the talent. My art, at the end of the day, belongs to me. And I know I'm good. The market is a mess. There's a lot going on in the podcast industry right now. And unfortunately, I can't have 10 million followers. I'm not Dua Lipa. Okay. Dua Lipa wants to do a podcast. They write her a check, and she did one. And I'm not picking on Dua Lipa, please don't come after me. Dua Lipa stands because that did happen to me on Twitter. They are ruthless. Oh my God. I don't think I've ever been attacked more. And that's saying a lot. Wow. So this is what I'm competing with. I'm competing with UA Lipa. I'm going in for a meeting. I'm sending them my Jackie's hole tape. I think it's funny. People get it if they get it and they go, but you're not Dua Lipa. You don't have 10 million followers. We're not giving you a check. And I walk out. I mean, I'm like, oh, okay. I I'm not Dua Lipa. I agree.
Doree: I Mean, Kate and I were just talking about this, the celebrity influx into podcasting really did not do the rest of us any favors.
Kate: Did not help.
Jackie: It did not.
Doree: And there's a few that are good, but a lot of them were not so good and aren't publishing anymore. But they got these massive deals and
Jackie: They completely, you changed our industry in terms of how the money is distributed for sure.
Doree: I'm like, honestly, I blame the talent agencies for this.
Jackie: I was talking to somebody and they said, I field calls all day long from every celebrity. And they go, I want to start a podcast. And he goes, okay, what's the idea? Well, I just am really funny and I want to talk to my other rich friends about how cool it is to be rich and famous. And then he goes, sorry, I don't think I can sell that. They all want one now.
Doree: Yeah.
Jackie: They all want one now.
Doree: Well, and they, here's the problem. And Kate, I feel like you and I have talked about this also is if you're good at podcasting, people don't realize how hard it is. And that's why I think a lot of these celebrities listen to these shows and they just think, well, I can do this. And especially if they're actors, it's like, well, you've been reading off a script your whole life. It's different. You have to know how to actually talk to people and yeah, this gets me really fired up.
Jackie: Yeah. I could do a whole podcast just about talking trash, about celebrities starting podcasts. And I don't want to gate keep this industry, but it just came down to during the pandemic, no one could travel. They weren't going to movie premieres. They weren't, they weren't exposed at how they normally are out in the public. And they were bored. And they said, oh, this person's making a lot of money. I want to do it too. And then all the networks were like, Ooh, let's gobble up the celebs because everybody wants to hear what they have to say. Here's money, here's money, here's money. And then at the end of that, a lot of them said, oh no, I'm back to having my glamorous movie and music career now. I don't want to do it anymore. But they already got their big check and that money took away from us. And I'm not trying to be a hater because again, I'm not trying to gate keep this beautiful industry that is open and should be available to everyone. They did change how things are done.
Kate: Well, I also think it, it's makes it a lot harder. We all got in independently five to seven years ago. When I think it was easier to be like, we're two kind of. Just random people. We're going to make a podcast and find a community or find an audience. And I think also find advertising and I to sponsor the show. And I think that's a lot harder now for people who don't have 2 million TikTok followers or some sort of massive platform. And I think that's said because there's so much interesting talent, and I hate the word content, but creators, people who maybe even are making this stuff, but it's just not getting seen because it's over saturated. And that's just like, I hope the pendulum swing goes back in the other direction. It is such an interesting medium to be able to create audio in this way. It still fascinates me, and we've been doing it for how long. I had a question based on this. Oh, one thing, you were talking about hustling and how hard you have worked in la and I think one thing that our listeners might not realize, I know you talk about it on your show, but I think when I first met you when I moved to la, you were kind of introduced to me as Jackie O Lashes. Yep. Because you did everybody's la you were Yes. In the comedy community, and you also did lashes.
Jackie: Yep, that's right. I used to be, when I first moved out here, my first job was Cheesecake Factory at The Grove as a server. And then that segued into celebrity dog walking, which I did for, oh, I six years or so.
Kate: And another friend who was a celebrity dog walker.
Jackie: Oh, I know. We've talked. And then I started doing Jackie O Lashes, and that was because I just could not do the dog walking anymore. I had become so integrated in these people's lives, they valued me so much, and I loved what I was doing, and I just couldn't do anything else because at that point, it had become a full career. And I just said I did not drive across the country to leave my family to be a dog walker. Now, I could've done it, honestly. I could've opened my own empire because I was so good at it and everybody loved me. And it was wonderful work. I mean, I was outside all day with animals. It was incredible. But I just said, I did not move here to do this, and I had to step away. And then I had bills. So I went to eyelash school because at that point, eyelashes were just starting to hit here. And so yeah, I did eyelashes for a few years and then I was doing that up until attribute.
Doree: Do you feel any sort of calling to do any sort of hands-on beauty stuff?
Jackie: It was really labor intensive. If anyone out there gets eyelash extensions, just know that your tech works very hard and you need to tip well, it is a very labor intensive, hard, physically demanding job. And I was good at it, but oh, it ripped me to shreds. I mean, my back, my hands, my wrists. I could only do one or two people a day because it just was so hard on me.
Doree: How long do you have to train for to be a Cosmetologist?
Jackie: Not very long. No. At this point, I believe it was a one day class. And at the end they basically, I know, and at the end, they basically just made sure that you knew how to not glue an eye shut. And then they signed my paper. Now I was not good. I had to build up my endurance. So I did like everybody for free. I did so many of my friends. And did their eyes get glued shut? Yes. Did their eyes get red? Yes, honey. I had to learn a lot of lessons. It was not pretty. So shout out to all the girlies who let me practice on them. A lot of 'em, they're Emmy winning actresses. Now a lot of our U C B kind of girlies, but I got good. And then because I had this extensive network of rich women from all my dog walking, they, everybody loved me. I walk this show runner's dog, that show runner's dog, and their wives all love me. And I'd be like, by the way, I'm doing eyelashes now. And they'd be like, oh my God, do mine. I do hers. She'd go to lunch, everybody would see, give 'em my cards. And I was just going all around. Word of mouth referral, honey. That's how we roll. And I was killing it with the eyelashes. I could have opened JackieO lashes up again. I could have been like Jess Rona. I could have had my own studio, but I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to do that.
Doree: Jackie, what I'm hearing is that your magnetic personality, which has served you well in podcasting, has also kind of been the thread through your whole career. And you've been able to sort of build these mini empires. It's pretty amazing to go from one, a completely different industry to another industry, to another industry and find a success in all of them.
Jackie: I'm like that typical millennial that just cannot hold down a job. I am the cliche, but now I'm sitting here going, what am I going to do now? What am I going to do now?
Doree: What do you want to do now? What do you like?
Jackie: Well, I want a podcast. I want a podcast. I want, okay. If I could have any job, I would want to be like, any job. I would want to be like Nicole Byer and just host great shows on Netflix. Be the commentator on Wipe Out, tour the country. That would be my goal. And Nicole works her ass off. She's one of the most just hardworking people, but that's what I,
Kate: And makes it look effortless.
Jackie: Yes. I'm like, how do you have 15 jobs? How do you have 15 jobs?
Doree: Well, because it's the same sort of thing where she makes it look easy. Yes. But hosting is actually very hard.
Jackie: Oh, she buss her ass. No. Oh, she buss her ass.
Doree: And so I feel like when these studios find a good host, they're like, oh, we're just going to hire you for everything.
Jackie: Yes.
Doree: But I mean, yes, you would be so good at all of that.
Kate: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Can I ask a question, Jackie?
Jackie: Yeah.
Kate: I feel from you such an innate, one sense of self and knowing who you are and two, confidence that feels genuine. Am I right? Do you believe that about yourself?
Jackie: Yeah.
Kate: And if someone is listening, maybe me whose confidence feels like always something I'm fucking working at when people ask for advice in this way, not how do I break into this business, but more how do I believe in myself? Do you have advice on that? Because I always, the sense I get from you is just such strength and understanding who you are and believing in it no matter what anybody else fucking tells you.
Jackie: That's a beautiful question. I remember one time I was listening to Howard Stern, who, Kate I'm a fan of.
Kate: I do
Jackie: And somebody called in and asked him this question and Howard said, become an expert at something, be the best at something. And I've paused it and rewound it and recorded this. And I'm not saying it as profoundly as he said it, but he said it just so matter of fact. And I always say, well, I mean, I don't think I'm an expert at anything, so maybe I need to take my own advice, but I'm really good at, I am really good at what I do, which is human connection.
Kate: Yeah. The story was saying that is the threat.
Jackie: Yeah. That's my expertise. And that lends itself to podcasting, to hosting, to cutting up with the lady on the phone at T-Mobile or who was I just cutting up with the other day? We were laughing our butts off. Just every time I'm on the phone with a customer service person, we end up talking for 20 minutes about whatever. This is just what I do. And I guess, unfortunately I have to monetize that in order to make a living. I can't just be the friendly lady in life.
Doree: Do you feel like this is your personality also with friends?
Jackie: Yeah, which also I'm having, I feel like I'm having friendship crisis, identity crisis though. And I know that comes from motherhood. I felt so isolated last year. I felt so disconnected. All of my close friends, other than I would say my sister aren't moms. And unfortunately, it's one of those, when you get it, you get it moments and they just don't get it. So I've been, I remember talking to my therapist a couple weeks ago who, I have this same therapist I've had since my first marriage ended, so for over four years now. And she's obviously heard it all. And I was just going, how do I as a 38 year old woman get some new best friends? Because I just feel like it's hard. And so maybe y'all have some advice for that. I know once your kids are in school, you find more friends in the mommy groups. But that's something that I've been really having a hard time with. I just think a lot of stuff changed. I don't blame anybody. I'm not mad at anybody. I'm still besties with all my besties, but I just, I'm looking for that connection from female friendships in this new way that I'm not getting right now.
Doree: Yes. Yeah. I felt it's a really hard transition. Yeah.
Kate: I really struggled with, and I would join a mom's group, a baby, and me, and I would feel like I don't fucking know how to talk to anybody. All my social anxiety came out, but in a new way. And that was really, it's hard if you don't connect with the person and all you have in common is just like we have babies the same age. It's after a while that you stop being able to talk about that. And then you have to each other as humans also. And that can, that's all that's hard. I mean, friends hard.
Doree: I will say though, that some of my closest new mom friends I made after I became a mom were from these Mommy and me classes that I was initially sort of like, oh, is that corny? And then I did them. And definitely the first few weeks I was sort of like, I don't know how to talk to anyone. But Jackie, I don't think that would be a problem for you. I think you're just so naturally gregarious and outgoing that people would sort of flock to you. And the nice thing about those classes is it's just a group therapy session for the moms. And so you're really getting you to know people on a deeper level. And you also don't have to be friends with everyone in the class. I made two or three close friends, you know what I mean? And everyone else, I'm sort of like, okay, you're fine. But we didn't get out of here. Well, no, it's just we're not, I'm joking. We're not going to be BFF which is, yeah, you don't Totally fine. Most people don't connect with everybody. That would be, yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, that would be one thing. The other thing is I need to give you my number because you can text me anytime about having a small child.
Jackie: I think about you Doree all the time, because I read your book. I was deeply moved by it. I was reading it during a really hard time when I was having this horrific insomnia that just came out of nowhere. I think it was related to my Hashimoto's, my thyroid crap. And I would have to be, like I said, 4:00 AM Before we started recording, I was talking about this 4:00 AM was my hour. I would get up, get out of bed and read your book, and your fertility stuff was just gut wrenching. And I was trying to get pregnant at that moment. And I remember just reading this book and just being like, oh my gosh, I got to call Doree. Like Doree has been through it, sweetie. And I've just thought about you through a lot of stuff because I am, I have a son and I'm only having one child, and I just think a lot about you and everything. And so there you go
Doree: You know what? We'll get lunches
Jackie: And your Instagram. I remember, I never watch Instagram stories. It's one of my boundaries with social media. So I miss everything. And friends of mine are always, that's pretty good. Friends of mine are always like, did you not see my story? And I go, I don't watch stories. I don't know why. I just don't. But one random day I, I clicked on Doree's story. It popped up and I read it, and it was all about parenting and it was all these parenting books and your style, and you were asking, people were asking you questions. And I was like, this is before I, I mean, wasn't even trying to print it. And I was just like, I need to screen grab all this because this is fucking fascinating. And I was like, I should let watch stories because, so that's why I think about you all the time because now I'm starting to be gentle parenting and reading all these books.
Doree: It starts to feel overwhelming. There are all of these things, and not all of them are going to be like the thing, but one of them will be the thing. And then you'll meet your people down and you'll be like, you need to have those people to have the group texts with at Two in the morning. You know what I mean? You need those people. And it's good. I love having mom friends with kids who are older than my kid.
Kate: Oh yeah. I could.
Doree: Yeah. Kate Spencer.
Kate: You need them the same age too.
Doree: You need Yes, but you also need them the same age. You need those people who know exactly about the weird developmental shit. Yes. Your kid is going through that you can commiserate with and you need those people. And the place to meet those people is in these classes. So we can talk later about. Because I have some other specific recommendations for you, but we'll talk later
Kate: On this postpartum topic. I, I've been binging the Jackie Johnson Patreon recently. I just went through and listened to million of your episodes the other day, not even because I knew I was talking to you, just because I enjoy listening to you.
Jackie: But thank you for your support, Kate.
Kate: It's an absolute pleasure. Your Patreon is great. I highly recommend it. You're like, I love your very conversational personal tone of your podcast recordings on there. You just get alot of tea.
Doree: I get behind on everything, but
Kate: I text Doree the tea.
Jackie: I was about say, I was going to say, I was about say send Doree the links
Doree: I get updates from Kate
Kate: Dont worry. Jackie was at this party talking about this
Doree: Jackie was saying like, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, I got to listen. I got to listen. And then she'll be like, blah, blah, blah. She gives me again,
Kate: My kids are old, so I have more time. Yeah. Yeah. You talk about something that Doree and I have both dealt with, and that is the experience of trying to find new clothes to fit your postpartum body. And then just the journey of fucking attempting self-acceptance of a body that has transformed in a society that doesn't want your body to change.
Jackie: And I'm nodding.
Kate: I think this is something,
Jackie: I'm nodding. I'm nodding. I'm nodding yes.
Kate: A lot of our listeners have been through this, and this is something that happens to people, whether they are experiencing a childbirth or pregnancy or not. Chronic illness changes, our bodies aging. All sorts of things. And it is really fucking hard to kind of process and clothing. Is this off kind of really challenging, visible representation of that change? What has been your experience? Have you found jeans that you like?
Jackie: No, I haven't. So listen, I knew that this was going to be really hard for me. I mentally just really tried to give myself a lot of love around this because I just knew that this was going to be a thing. And it's been really hard, you know, see that some, you just can't compare yourself to other people. Every woman has a journey. You have to honor that every woman's journey is different. But I'll say this, I will never judge another woman ever again, ever. And honestly, I've had to really work on judging my body because I remember I was like five days postpartum, and I got out of the shower. I took the best shower of my life.
Kate: Oh yeah, that first shower. That's a good shower.
Jackie: Yeah. I didn't shower at the hospital. I get home, I shower in my beautiful pink mid-century shower, and I step out of it and I look at myself in the mirror and I just burst into tears. And I just said, I will never judge my body again. I cannot believe what my body just did. It just made a human being from scratch and then ejected it. I can never say anything bad about my body again. It's incredible. And then in that moment, I just said, I am. And I have a friend who I met through one of my birth classes, who's this Instagram girly. And she's always selling everybody her lifestyle products and stuff. And she's so good at what she does. I'm not trying to downplay what she does, but she goes to work out every morning and films it. And I was just like, you know what? I'm going to make that my challenge. And so I joined this Pilates studio by my house, and they had this challenge for the first few months of the year. And I just said, I just got my credit card out. And now I've never been a workout girly. I've never gone to the gym. That's not my lifestyle. But I said, I'm going to do this because I'll say this, my son is heavy. Okay? He's already 25 pounds and he's 13 months old. He's huge. And haven't ever been a very strong physical person. And my back was going out and I said, I'm going to get strong for my son. I'm not going to get strong because I want to fit into this or look this. I want to get strong because I need my strength for my son. And so I did this Pilates challenge and I did. I got stronger now. I didn't lose any of my baby weight. Radical acceptance again. And I said on my picture on the other day, I was like, this is the body I have. I'm not going to sit here and go and I'm just going to talk about diet stuff. So I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. I'm not going to sit here and diet it. I'm not. I'm not going to diet. I'm not going to go run. I'm not going to do all those things because this is my body now and I'm, I'm going to just use this body. This is my body now. It's not the body I had, but it's my body now. And I'm okay with that. I just need to find clothes that fit it, because my old jeans still don't zip up. I can't even get them halfway up. So, okay, I need new pants. That's what I was really trying to avoid. I'm just too cheap. I was like, I'm going to fit it in my old clothes because I don't want to buy new clothes. No, I have to. I guess
Doree: it's a financial, it is. Unfair. Unfair. Really fucking unfair.
Jackie: No, unfair. Unfair. Same with pregnancy clothes. I had to buy a new ward. I had to buy postpartum clothes. I women should get a stipend. They should send a stipend in the mail for when you would,
Doree: If you run for office, this should be part of your platform.
Jackie: Yes. Diflucan, It needs to be available over the counter. Yes. That's number one.
Doree: Yes, yes,
Kate: Yes.
Jackie: Number one.
Kate: Well, Jackie, before we let you go, which I don't want to do selfishly, but do want to do out of respect for you and your life. You are the queen of creams and you are a beauty product expert. I would say
Jackie: That will never change
Kate: No. And it would be a disservice to frankly, ourselves, but also our listeners, if we didn't ask you for whatever favorite beauty products are on your shelf right now.
Jackie: Well, so again, when I was trying to get pregnant, I did what a lot of women do, and you assess your life and what you're using and you know, don't have to necessarily adhere to the whole green slash clean beauty movement. But I said it wouldn't hurt. So I did. And then of course I was pregnant, and then I was breastfeeding, and then now I just have a son who grabs me, and one of the only times he'll let me just stare at him is if he's messing with me somehow. So I let him rip my glasses off my face, which probably isn't good, but it's one of the only times he just will look me right in the eye and I can just look at his perfect little cute face. So I just let him bully me, basically. So he's always touching me and grab, and I'm like, I don't want anything on my face that if it got on him, I would be concerned with. So I'm still using clean beauty. So right now I have a few faves I use. Okay. St. Jane is not cheap. Oh my God, I can't get enough. There's C, vitamin C. It's in this gorgeous white matte bottle. It's got these little fleck of gold copper in them. It's just great. They also make a sunscreen that has just a jasmine scent, and it's so nice. It doesn't sting my eyes. I love it. And then I use this other one called Kinship, which is another sunscreen. The sunscreen, as far as I'm concerned, that's what I'm on. The kinship sunscreen. Look it up, sweetie. And when I left Tribute, my final episode, which is one of my best, I go through the top five creams I've ever used. And this is big. The best cream is unfortunately not cheap, but I'm obsessed with it. If you are a rich Baroness, you've inherited some money, you've won a reality show. If you are just sitting on some money, you need to get this. Okay. Have y'all used Kypris?
Kate: Yes. Oh boy,
Doree: I love Kypris.
Kate: Yes. Is it that like cloud cream puff
Jackie: Puff of love is what it's called.
Doree: Puff the moisturizer.
Jackie: Yes. Yeah.
Doree: So good.
Kate: It comes in the jar and it feels like a cloud.
Doree: It's so good. Yeah.
Jackie: I'm sorry, I was skeptical, but honey, it, no, its snatches your, it literally snatches you. I put it on and it tightened up my face, and I'm like, oh shit, I have to shell out. I think it's like 120. It's something absurd.
Doree: It's expensive,
Jackie: But honey, what is in it, because it works. It's incredible. It's incredible. And their
Doree: Have you used,
Kate: the oil is great too,
Doree: the beauty elixir that they have?
Jackie: Yes. That's what I, the thousand roses. Yes. Yes.
Kate: Ooh,
Jackie: I'm telling you, it's gorgeous. The whole experience is just luxury.
Kate: It, yeah, it's pleasant. It's so pleasant putting it on. There's such a sensory element to their products that I find with certain prods of the scent. And the texture.
Jackie: No, it's, yeah, it's really nice. I have in my bathroom a little shelf and I have my Kate Spencer candle from your book kit, and next to it is My Puff of Love Kiras empty jar as a shrine to it. As like an aspirational lifestyle shrine. So every time I stand up from my peeing, whatnot, I see it and I say, honey, I'm going to buy that again. I haven't, but I'm going to, it's incredible. I take cream very seriously. I take cream very serious. So, sorry. It's not cheap, but it's great.
Kate: Listen, we are down for an expensive endorsement. We might not buy it, but we're down for it.
Jackie: Yeah.
Kate: It has a home here.
Jackie: I know. I felt, I felt safe. I felt safe sharing that with y'all.
Doree: You, yeah. Yes. Yes. Jackie, where can our listeners now listen to you?
Jackie: Well, the Nash Butte want to, yeah, the Nash Butte feed is there. There's like 300 episodes. If you want to start at the beginning and go through the journey. I mean, honey, I was in a whole different person when it started and where I'm at now. But you could, if you're in, listen, if you're on the Forever35 Patreon and you want to just click over to the Jackie j Patreon, join and binge like Kate, just because basically it's just been me talking shit about the podcast industry and honey, we spilled tea. And then I will was like, you hear about my postpartum journey and it gets pretty dark sometimes, and I'm pretty vulnerable there. And then we come out of it, and now I just go to parties and tell y'all what famous people I see and what they said to me. And so it's just,
Kate: I loved that reveal
Doree: Jackie, I just had a little idea that I want to pitch that maybe the three of us should do a crossover Patreon episode.
Jackie: Yes.
Kate: Ooh, that would be fun.
Doree: That runs on the Nash Butte, or not Nash Butte, that runs on the Jackie Johnson and the Forever35 Patreon.
Jackie: That is such a great idea.
Doree: We can really get into it.
Jackie: Yes, Done, I love that.
Kate: Oh, that would be really fun.
Doree: Okay, let's do that.
Jackie: Like an A m a.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Oh, yikes.
Doree: But really anything ask away,
Kate: Doree, you're ready to get into it. I like what I see it.
Jackie: I love it, honey,
Doree: Listen,
Kate: I'm always terrified and cautious, but I feel like I'm inspired by both of your braveness and boldness
Doree: In my boldness era.
Kate: You are. Both of you are really living in that.
Jackie: What do I have to lose at this point, honey?
Doree: I mean, exactly. That's kind of how I feel too. Anyway, Jackie, we love you. Thank you for coming on our show.
Jackie: Oh my God. I'm honored. I want to come on again in five years and see where I'm at then. Who knows?
Doree: Oh my gosh. yes.
Kate: I mean, or five months. Listen, anytime. Truly.
Doree: Exactly. All right.
Kate: Thank you, Jackie. Thank you. You're the best.
Jackie: Bye.
Kate: So Doree. Last week my intention was to write to my best buds, and I have been taking up that practice.
Doree: How's that going?
Kate: Good. Slow and steady. But all this writing has kind of led me to wonder if I want to start doing morning pages.
Doree: Wait, I have a question. Are you still doing that 750 word journal thing.
Kate: I am still doing it. I'm not doing it every day, but I just did it yesterday and I love it. But I am wondering if it, because I am in kind of this ongoing quest to do less screen time, if it might be kind of interesting to see what happens when I lean into the discomfort of handwriting in a notebook. So that's not my intention, but just all this kind of scribbling has gotten me thinking about other ways of handwriting. But my intention this week is to turn off my phone, not, not be, just put it on mute or do not disturb, but to power it down for chunks of time and just notice how that makes me feel.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Because honestly, the thought of it gives me a lot of anxiety. So I just kind of want to experiment and sit with that this week.
Doree: I really like this for you.
Kate: Thank you. How about you? What are you feeling this week?
Doree: Well, so Kate, last week, my intention was to stop feeling lumpy, and this week I have an answer to why I was feeling so lumpy. We're recording this ahead of time because of scheduling things, and so this was actually recorded just a day after, yes, last week's episode. And I found out this morning that I have covid, which would explain why I felt so blah. So yeah. So I think my intention this week is to just kind of make sure that I get over covid in a timely fashion. I don't know, not a timely fashion, that I just am chill and kind to myself.
Kate: You take care of yourself. Yeah. I mean, you know what? I want to just flag the advice that you gave me after I had Covid, which you were like, don't overdo it. Do you remember this?
Doree: I do remember this.
Kate: You were like, go slow and steady because you can, I think sometimes folks can try to recover too quickly.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: So I'm just going to nudge you in that direction.
Doree: Yes. Thank you, Kate.
Kate: You're so welcome.
Doree: So yeah. All right everybody. Thanks for listening Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Thank you everybody.
Kate: Bye.