Episode 276: Rest and Renaissance with Rachel Cargle
Sometimes I’m closer to center and sometimes I’m not. And both have value.
- Rachel Cargle
Kate attempts to be more present and Doree refashions some sweatpants into her own cool travel pants. Then writer, entrepreneur, and philanthropic innovator Rachel Cargle joins the pod to discuss her new book A Renaissance Of Our Own, the distinction between being child-free and child-less, why she wrote her own manifesto, and the power of listening to the body’s request for more rest.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And as we say, we're not experts.
Doree: We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums.
Kate: Hello Doree.
Doree: Hello, Kate.
Kate: I was trying to rack my brain about what serums I put on this morning.
Doree: Oh. And
Kate: I did put on a vitamin C serum. Well, I was just thinking last night I got home late and I had makeup on and I did my pawns cold cream, followed by a basic cleanser.
Doree: I really respect your commitment to the ponds. I have to say,
Kate: I find the ponds cold cream works.
Doree: I love that for you.
Kate: It does the job now, I think it also does the same job as any other kind of makeup removing balm I've ever put on
Doree: And the scent doesn't bother you
Kate: This is unscented.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: Smells like nothingness.
Doree: Okay.
Kate: So yes. Last night I did do a bit of a pons situation, and then this morning I put on a vitamin C serum.
Doree: So ever since Dr. Whitney Bow told us about how vitamin C serum helps with sun or something,
Kate: You have been diligent.
Doree: I have been pretty diligent. Colleen Rothschild sent some stuff to me and one of those things was a vitamin C serum, and I actually have really been liking it
Kate: Now. Was it immediate after we talked to Dr. Whitney, you were like, got to get back on the vitamin C train?
Doree: Well, I had kind of been thinking about it and then Colleen Rothschild sent me some products and I was like, well, might as well just try this. And I've been liking it.
Kate: Well, my vitamin C serum right now is from Clore.
Doree: Oh yes.
Kate: A beautiful skincare line that I love. It's called Brilliant. Brilliant. Why can't I talk? It's called Brilliant Light, and I like to think that that's what I am.
Doree: A brilliant light.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah, a brilliant light.
Doree: You are. You are Kate.
Kate: Me and this vitamin C serum are a brilliant light. Yeah. That also made an impact on me, I think because she articulated what it does.
Doree: Yes. What it does exactly.
Kate: Which you'd think I would like to know that about other things, but for some reason that had just never dawned on me. What does this do? I don't know. Do I use it? Sure. Not the best approach to think well to things. I will say after our conversation with Dr. Whitney, I have been way more diligent about my sunscreen and my sun protection. And also Elizabeth Holmes Stewart shared in her newsletter her experience with skin cancer and getting it removed. And that was also a reminder that I just really do need to be and want to be extra careful of protecting my skin.
Doree: That kind of surprises me. I always saw you as someone who was very diligent about sunscreen. Is that not accurate?
Kate: No, I am, but I think that's the reapplication part that I always kind of,
Doree: yes. Okay.
Kate: That I think is often what is reiterated as really the most kind of crucial thing, I think because sometimes it's in our moisturizer and we put that on in the morning or we put sunscreen on separately in the morning. I can only speak for myself, but sometimes my brain's like I have sunscreen on, but seven hours have passed.
Doree: Yes, yes. I will usually try to reapply if I am going outside. I don't generally reapply if I've only been inside though.
Kate: That seems reasonable.
Doree: So full disclosure,
Kate: I ran into a friend on the street yesterday and he was like, wow, you're dressed very on brand. I was just going for a morning walk and I was in my Kirkland brand hat baseball cap, and he was like, your Costco Brand stuff. And then you're in a sun protection shirt. I was like, I guess that is my brand.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: Costco And Sun Protection,
Doree: Costco and Sun Protection.
Kate: I'm proud of that.
Doree: I was going to say there are worse things to be known for
Kate: Many worse Things,
Doree: like many worse things
Kate: That seems like I'm doing pretty good if a friend who has known me for almost 25 years affiliates me with Costco and Sun Protection.
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: I feel good about that.
Doree: Also, I love that you ran into someone on the street.
Kate: Yeah.
Doree: That's so New York of you.
Kate: Well, I, I live in kind of a residential part of Los Angeles where people are always out and about going for walks and we're also middle aged.
Doree: This is also true.
Kate: He was walking his dog with his coffee and I was just on a power walk.
Doree: Oh my gosh. Amazing.
Kate: I am really enjoying walking. Someone told me, a friend and I were talking about how there is, I'm now I'm, I'm going to misspeak, but a way in which walking the pattern of walking can kind of help trauma reliefs a little bit.
Doree: Oh, okay.
Kate: I need to do a bit more. This was just a chat we were having about the benefits of walking and how it can feel really good when you are stressed or upset or come just after therapy or processing a really hard thing.
Doree: Oh, I love that.
Kate: How a walk is so beneficial. Well, and I do think, I love trying to expand my thinking about exercise and the impact it can have on mental and emotional health and not just physical health.
Doree: It's so funny you say that because when this airs, I will be away and I was thinking about how I'm probably not going to be able to do any of the physical activity that I typically do at home. I'm not going to bring my tennis racket, not going to be taking the strength class I take at the gym,
Kate: not going to be doing dead lifts,
Doree: Not going to be doing dead lifts. And when you had just said that, it occurred to me that I had been kind of bummed about it, but in the past it would've been because I didn't want to gain weight or I didn't want to get out of shape. And now I'm thinking about it as like, oh, I'm going to miss doing those things because those are things I really love to do.
Kate: I hear you, and I don't know if you felt this way along those lines, but the disruption of routine, the disruption of, I often get thrown when things like that happen because I'm so used to being on this routine and then when it's disrupted, it really throws me. But sometimes I think that's also for a, it's a good thing to have to process now and then.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: I was back at my trusty old pickleball lesson this week and I hadn't been there for a month because I pulled my groin and I had some travel and some, I had a lot of family stuff happening and one, it was the best pickleball I've ever played in my life.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: He was fucking killing it. My coach was like, whoa, where have you been? I was crying, I don't know what to tell. I've been processing stuff, so I don't know why it's coming out here, but I felt like,
Doree: Wow.
Kate: I was like, soaring.
Doree: That's really cool.
Kate: I was so out of my head in terms of thinking about the rest of my life, and so in the moment of being present, it felt amazing.
Doree: That's really cool.
Kate: And that was what felt the best about, I mean, it was so fun. I was having a blast doing it, but just the feeling of being free from everything else going on in my brain and I've stopped wearing my Apple watch and often I wear my Apple watch at pickleball and I'll be glancing down and I'll, I'll be making sure if I have a text from you, I'll check it and my text will pinging on my wrist or I always make sure if my kids need me. And it was a little scary and exhilarating to be freaked. Completely untethered. Yes. And I am trying to be as and as some folks know who listen untethered from digital distractions and I just started reading Jenny O'Dell's first book.
Doree: Oh yeah. I never read it.
Kate: Which you know why I started reading it.
Doree: Why?
Kate: Because Rachel Carle mentions it in her book.
Doree: Oh, Yes she does.
Kate: And I was like, well, I loved Rachel's book, and Rachel's book felt like, I was like, I need to keep reading some of the suggested reading that Rachel had listed. And so I started reading, I finished Rachel's book, which we'll talk more about, which I loved so much. And I have just started listening to Jenny O'Dell's book, how to Do Nothing, which came out in 2019.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: And she also had a book come out this year called Saving Time, which I would like to read as well, but I'm starting with how to Do Nothing. So that's where I'm at. I'm, I'm trying to free myself of the Apple Watch and of any sort of watch. So I, I'm freeing myself from knowing how many steps I stepped.
Doree: Wow. Kate, this is big.
Kate: Hey, I turned 44 in a couple days, so trying to go into this next rotation around the sun with a lot like a mindful presence.
Doree: I love this, Kate. Actually, this is airing, I believe on your birthday,
Kate: Is that right?
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Is my birthday on a Monday? Hold on.
Doree: It sure is.
Kate: Wait a second. We're recording this ahead of time.
Doree: Yeah, we sure are.
Kate: But as this airs, this is my 44th birthday.
Doree: Happy birthday, Kate.
Kate: Thank you so much. Again, as you know, I don't really co know how to celebrate birthdays.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: But I am very happy to get to be here for another one, that's for sure.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: And Shout out to all my fellow cancers out there. All you little summer birthday people, but specifically the cancers, the Leos and the Geminis. I see you. I honor you. But really the cancers are the heart of summer.
Doree: Yes. Yes.
Kate: We are the meat, we are the
Doree: Cancers and Leos
Kate: Get out of there. Leos. They're the tail end.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: They're that August heat. They're that fiery.
Doree: Wow.
Kate: It's July cancers are mostly July. Okay, alright. Oh, although I guess if you're down under, we're the of winter. Yeah. That throws me for a fricking loop.
Doree: That's interesting. Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. Or South Africa. I mean there are many places where, yes. Where it is Winter right now. And we see you.
Doree: We do.
Kate: Well, shall we get to our guest?
Doree: Let us get to our guest.
Kate: Alright. Look, this was very exciting when we got the email proposing that we speak to Rachel Cargle, ugh, about her whole life, but specifically her new incredible book called A Renaissance of One's Own, which is just fantastic.
Doree: It's so good.
Kate: I don't even know what to say about it other than you need to read it. And I read it and listened to the audio book, which Rachel
Doree: Overachiever much.
Kate: You know what? I'm an oldest daughter and I like to show it off. I love audio books and I like, sometimes I'll read a little bit and then I'll go over and listen and stay listening. But anyway, she narrates the audio book and it was just, it's fantastic listening
Doree: To her. Well, and as you'll hear, she just has really great energy.
Kate: So just pick it up in whatever capacity appeals to you. Let us tell you about Rachel. Rachel is an Akron, Ohio born writer, entrepreneur, and philanthropic innovator. In 2018, she founded the Loveland Foundation, a nonprofit offering free therapy to black women and girls. She has an incredible umbrella company called the Loveland Group, which houses a collection of her social ventures, including the Great Unlearn, a self-paced donation-based learning community, the great Unlearned for Young Learners, which launched in 2022. And Elizabeth's Bookshop and Writing Center, which is a literary space designed to amplify, celebrate and honor the work of writers who are often excluded from traditional, cultural, social, and economic and academic cannons. She's also a regular contributor to Cultured magazine at Miss Magazine and The Cut and has been featured in the Washington Post, the New York Times, Forbes, Harper's Bazaar, and The New Yorker. And it was an incredible privilege and thrill to get to speak to her and to dig in more to her story and her life. And again, her book is just phenomenal. So without further ado, here's our conversation with Rachel. Well, Rachel, welcome to Forever35. We are both so excited to have you here. We loved your book. We cannot wait to really dig into it. And we want to ask you the question that we ask all our listeners, excuse me, all our guests, when we have people on the podcast, we always start by checking in about a self-care practice in their own life, which is something you dig into in your book. And so we would love to know what is resonating for you right now as you consider it?
Rachel: I think something resonating for me in this season of life really has to do with my mornings, really taking my mornings slowly and with a bit of intention, recognizing the ways that it gives a lot of information to the rest of my day as a woman who is child free, who lives alone, I think that I have such a specific opportunity for these slow, simple, expansive mornings and I don't want to take them for granted. And I've been really cultivating from the time I wake up through to when I'm ready to start work, how do I want to feel? How do I want to feel in my body? How do I want to feel in my heart? Do I maybe want to spend a few hours just talking on the phone with a friend who also is an early riser before I get into the day? Or do I want to sit in absolute silence and cry on the couch for a while before I get into the rest of what's coming up for me? So right now, self-care really looks like the intention that I've been able to put into my mornings.
Kate: Can I ask you, I will confess, in part of preparing for our conversation, I listened to another interview you did recently where you were describing these mornings and it was so beautiful and so intentional. Was it a process to get to the space where you weren't hopping on your phone in bed and feeling rushed to respond to messages? Or is it something that came naturally, you knew one day this was a change you needed to make?
Rachel: Please note that I'm usually waking up my eyes scrolling and then being like, girl, get up and go do your morning. So it's not necessarily
Kate: I appreciate that,
Rachel: that I have, that I have ascended the things that we all normally do. It's really just, and I hope that we all take this intention with self care, that it's less about doing the things perfectly, but more about the growth we see in ourselves of getting closer and closer to what we actually want to be doing. It's so silly that with things like self-care practices or even lifestyle changes that we want to do, there's nowhere in life where we just wake up and we do the thing. There's nothing. There's nothing in life where we just wake up and do the thing. So putting that pressure on ourselves in these ways that we want to grow or change is really unfair and unkind to ourselves. There's a book by a person named Marley Grace and their work, the book is called Getting Back to Center. And what love about their work is that they talk about when aren't in our best of places, it's not that we're lost or we're off track, we're just further away from center than we'd rather be. And so there is value in just getting a little bit closer even if we don't get all the way there. And getting back to center for me sometimes looks like I scroll for a whole hour and then I get myself out of it and I'm like, okay, at least I have time for coffee right now by myself looking at the sun. Or my center is, I'm way closer to center. So I wake up and I make a conscious decision not to pick up my phone and I move through all of the things that I said I wanted to do in the morning. So it's less about the fact that I did what I said I would do every single time. It's just sometimes I'm closer to center and sometimes I'm not. And both have value.
Doree: What time do you wake up?
Rachel: Oh my gosh. I get up at, and it's of no virtue of mine. It's literally just when my body is like, we're up. Yeah, it's around. I'm usually up around 5:30-6, but I will say one thing that I've been doing, I did this morning, I'll wake up and I'll take a moment to scan my body a little bit and say like, do I need a little more sleep? I think maybe around age 35 we get to this point where our body just like is, it's found its rhythm and what time it's waking up. So it's less when we were in our teens and twenties and it's like, okay, I'm going to sleep until noon tomorrow, I'll see you all on the other side and we can't control it as much. And so I've been trying to get back into control of feeling my body when I wake up in the morning. And so lately I've, like this morning I woke up at 5:30 and I was like, I think I'm still tired. And I got myself to fall back asleep and I didn't wake up till nine and I was like, oh, my body actually did need that, where usually I'd be like, okay, I'm up. I might as well do this and do that. I've been honoring when I need a little bit more sleep.
Doree: Oh, I love that so much.
Rachel: And that 6:30 to nine was a huge gap, but sometimes it's that I'll say I need a little bit more sleep and it's just another 30 minutes or another hour that I end up sleeping. And that's really shifted something, one, trusting myself and my body knows I will take care of it. And also saying, I am giving my body the little extra time it's telling me it needs and then it shows up for me later in the day when I'm able to have less fatigue and really able to enjoy my space a bit more.
Doree: I love that because you said something that I feel like I think about a lot, which is, well, I'm up. I guess I might as well that phrase might as well. I feel like drips me up so much because it's like, well, maybe I might as well just rest a little bit more.
Rachel: Why don't we ever say that?
Doree: Yeah, exactly. So I love that you kind of reframed that. Well, Kate and I both really loved your book. I loved the combination of memoir and reflection and then also these really actionable steps that people can take. I thought the way you guided people there was just so well done and I think probably really helpful for so many people. So I'd love to talk about how a renaissance of one's own, just for people who haven't yet read it. Could you just share a little bit about the book, what you were hoping to get across with it and what it was like to write it and just the whole process of reflecting on your life so far?
Rachel: Yeah. The book is a memoir and a manifesto, and the two prongs of that include me sharing some personal stories from my life that reflect moments in time where I decided to ask the question of what else is possible in this moment? What else am I capable of? What else could the world look like? What else might I want or desire or need? And so each chapter goes through different spaces that I did this, including my love life in my family and in my familial relationships within my own personal education, within my own feminism, within my own relationship with rest. And I think that moving through the book with a series of prompts that ask the reader the same types of questions that I was asking myself and inviting them to end the book with a manifesto of their own that mirrors the manifesto that I put at the beginning of the book, really allows me to be in relationship with my reader and for those who come to the book to not come looking for answers, but to really come looking for all of the questions that they're finally ready to ask themselves in order to get to a reimagining and a renaissance of their own.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Oh, the Manifest Your Manifesto, which opens the book. And just so you know, I started reading and then I ended up finishing the book on audiobook. So it was such a pleasure to get to hear you and your own voice, share your story. But the manifesto itself, which is the first thing you read, is it's so powerful in it's just as it stands alone. I have your book here on a screen, which is why I keep pointing at something. For folks who go through this process of reading it, what does it like, what does a manifesto mean to us as individuals and how has it, and I love the way you talk about coming back to your core values and relearning and re-understanding and figuring out what they are. How has this have, having this in writing kind of helped you get to know those values better?
Rachel: Well, some language I've been using lately is that when we're born, we're put onto this life escalator. We're put onto this quick moving one direction conveyor of what we should be doing, when we should be doing it, how we should feel while it's happening, telling us all of these milestones and points that are societally determined and don't give us much autonomy as to what we actually want to be doing, how we actually want to be feeling, and at what pace we want to be going. And so I think that this idea of the life escalator and the language around that has really allowed me to dive into the moments where we hop off of it and the higher you go on the escalator, the scarier it is to look over the edge and be like, wait, am I ready to get off of this thing?
And so I think that to connect that to your question directly, that a manifesto is an opportunity to build your own staircase for how you're moving through life as opposed to moving on this life escalator that is handed to us. And with the manifesto going through all of the really important pieces of my own life, I'm able to give language and specificity to how I want to show up in the world. And with that language and specificity, I can have strong yeses and strong nos to what I want to be doing, how I want to be spending my time, my money, my energy, my resources. And a manifesto gives us some calibration, reminds us of that center, redirects us back to our staircase in order to make sure that when we're moving through the world, we're moving as our chosen selves. And I think that that is our best service to the world to be showing up with the type of joy and energy and intention and passion that can only come with living a life that you have chosen, not one that was chosen for you or placed upon you. And I hope that as people read the book and at the end of it, they're able to string together their own manifesto, even if it will, the manifesto might get stronger as you find more language for yourself and what your desires are, the manifesto might get longer as you discover more things, it might get shorter as you start to kind of pare down the juiciest parts of what you know want to be spending your time and effort doing. And it's not that this document, this manifesto, this language for yourself is something that is defining, but it's guiding and often guidance gives us the motivation to keep moving forward. And so I feel very much so that the manifesto is something that you can read through when you need a reminder of yourself that you can show to people when you want them to know a little more about you, that you can go in and change when you feel yourself shifting and not feel like, wait, who am I? It's like, okay, lemme write this into what I understand about myself.
Kate: Yeah, I love that because your book felt to me like permission, you giving yourself permission to shift and change and observing how you have done that. And it just spoke to me on a level of the idea of a manifesto is fluid, right? It's ever changing. You've changed and there's so much reflection on that. And it found it felt very profound. And also you are approaching your own life with a lot of grace, which I found just really moving.
Rachel: Yeah. Thank you.
Kate: Oh, sorry, Doree, you go ahead.
Doree: Well, I was just going to ask if we could talk about some of these pivotal moments in your life when you realized that you needed to make a change and then you did it, which is I think for a lot of people is really hard to wrap their heads around. And so I was hoping you could maybe talk about one or two of those moments and if you have advice for people who are kind of paralyzed by the idea of making these sort of big life changes.
Rachel: Well, one of them that I talk about in the book, one of the biggest ones certainly was my divorce. And being in a situation where you're celebrated, where you've been told that this is where you're supposed to find the most joy, and where you get oftentimes positioned into the space of no longer being able to tune into your personal desires and you can get lost in ways that I experienced in my own marriage that I've heard other people talk about. And when you're not within a partnership where you feel strong and excited and grounded, then that doesn't just mean the relationship isn't good for you. It's probably not good for the other person to be in a space where they're not with someone who feels those things. And so I was making my decision to get a divorce. One, I was trying to consider what's the kindest thing I can do for me and this man, it's not kind for me to insist that he be in a relationship with someone who's questioning him. It's not kind for me to insist that he stay somewhere where the person who he feels very sure about is unsure about him. That's just unkind. It's also unkind for me to position myself in a place for the sake of others, others being perhaps the church we were involved in. My mother who was so proud of the fact that I had gotten married, our friends who were so excited because they were yearning for something that we already had. And so having to willing a willingness to step away and be kind to myself and say, okay, what do you need is one of the big parts of it. But I also think, and it's something that's said often is things are going to be hard either way. Either you're going to have a hard time making the shift and moving into something new and the hardness of a new beginning, or you're going to have to sit with the hard of staying somewhere that doesn't serve you and that will continue to suffocate what you think that you should be experiencing in life. And so as we're all making these big shifts and decisions, I encourage you one to remember that it's going to be hard either way you get to, one of the wonderful things about the living is that you get to choose your hard sometimes. And so I am going to choose the hard of the work that it takes to make sure that I'm well, the work that it takes to work to build out my happiness, the work that it takes to create a lifestyle that really serves me and allows me to serve others. Because there's also what many people have experienced, which is the hard of silence, the hard of regrets, the hard of discomfort, the hard of perhaps lying to yourself and others, whatever. The hard thing is, this isn't just talking about a divorce and relationships, it's talking about staying in work. You don't enjoy staying in a location where you feel like you should be exploring. There are many ways that we have these tiny moments of perhaps self betrayal that build up over time. And I think that when we relate to ourselves with the kindness, with the same type of kindness we would to other people, often we stay somewhere because we're being loyal to something and I wonder what it would mean if we consider that loyalty to ourselves and how much more bigger and how much bigger and how much more authentically we would be able to show up in the world.
Kate: Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Doree: I love this idea of really thinking about what would the kindest move be, and I think it requires this level of radical honesty with yourself that is sometimes hard to access and sometimes something that I was really impressed by in your book was how honest you were with yourself throughout the book, and maybe that was the benefit of hindsight with you. Maybe you didn't feel honest with yourself at the time, but at least that was what I got out of your book. Just an incredible kind of self-awareness that I know I struggle with and I'm sure a lot of people do. So it was just something that really, really moved me. So yeah, so you also talk a lot about how you kind of a long time learning about feminism and developing these talks and kind of curricula about feminism and white feminism, and you had a talk called Unpacking White feminism, and then you had a realization that this wasn't serving you and it wasn't serving, I guess black people and that you had to focus on black people and black feminism. Am I representing your journey accurately?
Rachel: Yeah, I just was, A lot of the work that I was doing in the world of anti-racism was in educating white people with where I was finding ignorance in their understanding of one, their privilege of the racist structures and in how all of that was showing up within the feminist movement. And I made a decision that I had to choose how I was going to do my work. And it wasn't that I wanted to move away from the work I was doing, but I had to find a new way to do it because it was weathering my nervous system and it was exhausting me. And I also wasn't finding a high use of my skills and my talents such as writing. I can't imagine spending a whole life writing about how, to me, hoping white people will care enough to keep us alive when I could be writing a book like the one I wrote that really celebrates the celebrates and finds ways to continue to care for the black community.
Doree: Could you talk a little bit about your knowledge, empathy, action framework kind of in that context?
Rachel: Yeah. So knowledge, empathy action was a framework that came to me while I was touring my unpacking white feminism lecture. And I was trying to consider ways to insist that the white people who were learning from me didn't take anti-racism work as a self-help opportunity, this opportunity to feel better about themselves and how they're existing in the world as opposed to actually digging into the work that needs to be done personally and structurally. And so knowledge represents the need to gain firsthand understanding. I did some research, I was studying at Columbia for a while, and I would look into my syllabus and I would actually look up the photos of the authors, and I would ask my professors, why do you think white men are giving us all the information we need about this topic? Looking at ways that we take knowledge from colonial frameworks, even when learning about a minority community or even learning about a different experience, we're still learning about that experience from often white male people and often in the media or in other spaces, rarely is information firsthand. I was looking up Kwanza books and I couldn't find any books about the African American holiday of Kwanza that were written by an African American. For some reason, publishers could only find white authors to speak to this experience that they're not even a part of. And so I put knowledge as the first part to insist that people get firsthand knowledge from the people who are experiencing the thing that they're looking to learn about. And this all of this doesn't even have to just do with race, it has to do with ability. It has to do with the experience of someone who is immigrated. It has to do with the experience of a refugee. It has to do with learning about other cultures. There's also empathy. And I was really disenchanted by this idea, particularly as it was showing up on social media of I hear what you're saying, I'm sorry you're going through that. And I needed white people to not just say, I'm sorry for what you're going through, but I wanted them to ask themselves, how does the way that I live affect what you're going through? How does what I do in the world affect what you experience in the world? And that was necessary for the white feminists who were coming to listen to my unpacking white feminism lecture to recognize that the things that were happening to black people within these structures and within these spaces weren't just falling out of thin air. They had to do with how they were living and how they moved through the world. That had an effect on how other people were able to experience the world. And then action moving us away. We can't intellectualize race. It's not something to just learn about, to understand. There has to be action and there has to be change, or this is just a study group. We need to be able to shift into intention. And at my lectures, I would always get the question of how do I make sure that my kids are anti-racist? And I would often ask, has your kid ever seen a black person in your home who wasn't working for you? Does your child understand that? Do you respect people of other cultures? What does your professional world look like? Who sits at your dinner table? This is a way that the action has to show up in your world. How do they hear you talk about other races? What books are on your shelf to prove to them that other voices matter? These are all actionable items that actually represent moving through the world with anti-racism as opposed to simply studying it.
Kate: Throughout the book, you share about your experience going viral after the women's march, a photo of you going viral at the women's march and being called in on participating in white in the construct of white feminism and how this call in really changed the course of your life in many ways, perhaps both internally and externally. And I found it really impactful in the ways in which you kind of model what it looks like to be called in and the way in which you received it. Because I know I'm speaking as a white person, we often meet the call ins that we are approached with a lot of defensiveness. I know I personally have. Do you feel like, and this has resonated with me, and I don't know if the idea of knowledge and empathy and action can be applied in this way, but is that kind of something when someone is called in, are these kind of tools that they can employ or you suggest that they employ to kind of reflect on what they are being called in about as opposed to our urge to just be like, no, no, no, not me. I'm not this, I'm not that. I wouldn't participate in this way.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, there's a lot of language that I share in my book about what often happens when there is an opportunity for you to recognize your privilege in a space. It's really hard for us to recognize it, one, because the person who has a breathing mask doesn't recognize that it's hard to breathe underwater. They're not going to look around and wonder if anyone else is having the same privileges as them. And so it is always going to be a startling moment when you recognize that you know, have a privilege, and that privilege is affecting how other people live, especially if the oppressed people have always been right there in front of you, if you have been so privileged that you don't even notice them. And that is part of the issue, this recognition that you know, live with so much comfort that you haven't even had to look around and make considerations of what other people are experiencing. And knowledge, empathy, action is exactly is a very good framework for approaching this. What is the person who is calling me and telling me not what I think they might be saying, what me and my friends have conferred, they might have said what I make up in my head to make me feel about what they said. What are they saying? And how can I be accountable for the realities of how I exist in the world that are true to what they're saying, even if I haven't recognized them yet, or even if I don't recognize them, how curious can I get about what they're trying to express to me? And then with that information, what can I do to be an accomplice to them not having to experience this any longer? And I think that if everyone took that individual approach, whether you've been explicitly called in or not, just because a poor person hasn't walked up to you and said, how come you haven't shared the wealth, doesn't mean that you can't make this consideration yourself with your own critical thinking about how to show up in the world. And so I think everyone, and I even do in my book, take personal inventory of what are my privileges and how does the way that I order packages, I order my clothes, I run my water, I travel, how do all of those ways play into the experiences that these people are having and what do I need to change and what do I need to do to support their wellbeing?
Kate: Can we talk? Oh, okay. Well, I want to ask about being a rich auntie Supreme, because I really love the way you speak about being child free. Even just using the term child free was really stood out to me in your work because in my brain, I think I always say childless, and I don't know if that was a conscious choice of words, but it was really impactful to read Child Free. And you have this wonderful community that you have created and this a beautiful identity of what it means to be an auntie to these children in your world, in your community. And I would just love for you to speak to that and maybe also to the joy of that because I still, the framework with which we discuss folks not having children is often so seen as such a negative. And you approach it with such celebration. And I know there are other people, there are people listening who are also child-free and loving it. And I, I'm just thrilled to see that represented more
Rachel: Well, to speak to the language, I think that I did make considerations of exactly what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say it. And this goes along with what we were speaking about earlier, the life escalator. Motherhood is definitely a step along that way. And not only is their motherhood to motherhood supposed to be automatic for anyone who is born and born with a uterus. And okay, as soon as you're born, we're waiting for you to have kids. But also that's also supposed to be the space where you find supreme joy. You're supposed to be excited about it and you're supposed to love it every day, and you're supposed to be your best self in this space. And so removing myself from that expectation, I had to look at the language specifically one, as a writer and someone who is very in tune with language, but also the truth of what I wanted to experience with this decision in my life. And the language of childless one maybe makes the assumption that something is missing, that you have less than what you were supposed to have, or there is a lessening to your experience, becau, because you don't have this thing. And I think free for me, one speaks to the decision. It was a freedom decision that I have made the decision that I would like the particular type of freedom that comes from not having a child. And so that is a freeness, but also that if it was something that was to come, it would be like a bonus. It wouldn't be the thing that completed me. It would just be something that comes along as a decision that I made. And so I think that child free is the most accurate language for what my experience of making the decision is. And I think that I do step into it as a space with joy because I see, not because, but in the same way that I see my friends who have made the wonderful decision to have children and who get to celebrate it with baby showers, with announcements, with groups and community. I think that every human deserves that in the decisions that they make because there's so many of us making the same various decisions in the world. And so I too wanted to have celebration and community and milestones in this decision that I've made. And I think also recognizing the stigma of it and the platform that I had, I felt like this thing that was personal also could become part of my work, this place that I wanted to help people explore possibility and to recognize the structures of the world and how we get to make decisions for ourself, and that when we make decisions for ourselves that are true to our values and true to our desires, it means that we can show up in more full ways. And that's also a part of this space for me, is that as I was looking for other communities of people who had decided not to have children, a lot of them sat in this space of not liking children. And that just wasn't the case for me. I'm not having children, I don't like children. I'm not having children because I don't want the lifestyle of being a parent, but I was a nanny for most of my twenties. I've been in relationship with raising many children. I have my own nieces and nephews. I'm having the best time as my friends have their kids and finding ways to be in relationship with their child. And so I wanted to foster this space of those who have decided not to have children and those who look forward to the ways that this decision allows us to be in relationship with other children. And so the Rich Auntie Supreme community came out of being rich not only in oftentimes the disposable income that comes with not having to pay for school or clothes or diapers or food for children, but also the richness that comes from the richness in time that I have. That speaks to my earlier comment that I decided to sleep in a few more hours, the richness in spontaneity of midweek trips without consideration of school days or where someone else has to be to meet school commitments or sports commitments, the richness of perhaps emotional space. I know a lot of times parents are overwhelmed with showing up for possibly multiple children and their needs and emotions, and so it's an honor and a joy to step in to be able to listen, to be able to help a child in my life walk through things. But also, yeah, like I said, also the richest and the disposable income of I love the opportunity to do the back to school shopping or to pay for the summer camp. That's going to happen that summer in my role is auntie, and it's been a really wonderful space that I'm grateful for the experiences and language of everyone who pours into the conversations that we have on the social media page. And I love to see this conversation of the option of being child free, being had more and more in the world.
Doree: I was hoping we could talk a little bit about the role of rest in your life, which you write about really nicely in the book, how you came to the realization that you wanted to incorporate more rest into your day to day, into your kind of life as a whole, and what it really means for you to kind of bring more rest into your life.
Rachel: I think that after the anti-racism work specifically that I was doing in 2017, 18, 19, and especially in the midst of 2020 after the murder of George Floyd and a lot of the racial uprisings that were happening, and I was really all in energetically and emotionally and with the work that I was doing, and I think that a lot of my work right now looks like the ways that I am doing exactly what I want to do. We just talked about being child free, and that centers in me making a conscious decision about how I want to show up in the world. And one of the ways that I've been describing rest recently, it's while it certainly includes the opportunity to rest my body and to sleep the ways that our bodies recover during sleep, the ways that just laying down and resting and remember that I'm worthy outside of production. For me, the of my definition of rest also includes me resting in the fact that I'm doing the things that I want to do. I think there's a particular exhaustion that comes from feeling like you're on a hamster wheel of societal expectation, either feeling like you're not enough based on what society says you should be doing, feeling like you have disappointed people who have expectations of you, feeling like you've disappointed yourself because you're not meeting these incredulous goals that might not even align with your desires. Yeah, there's a particular exhaustion that I'm speaking to that comes from not living from a space of authenticity, and I think that my conversation of rest these days is rooted in what does the body feel, what does the heart feel, what does the mind feel? What type of rest comes when you're doing what you want to do, when you're doing the thing that you feel passionate about and not passionate is in This is the one true thing you're supposed to be doing, but this is the thing that feels good to me and aligns with my values. And while the conversation in the book around rest certainly has to do with the physical component and the intention of really just slowing down, I think philosophically right now, my mind is really sitting with what rest comes to me when I'm doing the thing that I want to be doing.
Doree: That's really powerful. Well, Rachel, we've really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time. Where can our listeners find you if they want to follow along with your work, read your book, et cetera?
Rachel: Yeah. So much of my work exists within my social media platforms, Instagram, Rachel.Cargle, and at the link in my bio, you can find whatever's going on for me, whether I'm leading a workshop or doing a keynote, you can find the link to my book, you can donate to my foundation. You can see what I'm writing about these days. So yeah, I'll see you over on social media.
Doree: Great. Well, thank you so much.
Kate: Thank you so much.
Rachel: Thank You
Kate: Well, Doree,
Doree: Yes, Kate.
Kate: I mean, I don't know what else there is to say. I just really, really enjoyed that conversation. And, I could sit and listen to that book again. Maybe I will.
Doree: That does seem like a book that you could reread every year
Kate: And get so much out of every time.
Doree: Get so much out of it and redo the exercises and just kind of see where the changes are.
Kate: Well, that was a real pleasure. We're going to intent.
Doree: We are, but you know what, Kate, before we do that. We forgot to let people know,
Kate: Oh, we got so swept up.
Doree: We got so swept up that they can visit our website Forever35podcast.com for links to everything we mentioned on the show and follow us on Instagram @Forever35podcast. Our Patreon is going strong. We've chosen the first TV show that we are going to watch for our new season one podcast.
Kate: It's going to be a lot of watching,
Doree: And it is the oc, which is the first season of the OC is 27 episodes
Kate: California. I've never seen the oc.
Doree: Oh, I'm so excited for you to see it.
Kate: Is it going to feel so dated and so 2000 and like four ish
Doree: Yes. It's very 2004 ish.
Kate: So many hankerchief crop tops.
Doree: Yes, yes. I mean it really, because I rewatched some of it not that long ago and I was like, oh, this, I mean, I still love it. It's very of its time.
Kate: Doesn't Olivia Wilde play like a sultry?
Doree: She sure does.
Kate: Queer bartender.
Doree: I forget if she, she's queer. Sorry,
Kate: But she's a sultry bartender.
Doree: She's a sultry bartender. I'm really, but I don't think she's in the first season, so I don't think
Kate: We'll, we'll get to her.
Doree: No, third or fourth.
Kate: Okay. Yeah, that's okay. I know nothing I know like the actors from the OC
Doree: Yeah,
Kate: But I have truly,
Doree: I'm so excited to re-watch it with you. I'm really excited for this. So you can join our Patreon. Again, that's at patreon.com/forever35. If you join at the $5 level, you get access to all of our Patreon content, including season one. So join us over there. If you join at the $10 level, you also get ad free episodes of these episodes. The ones that you're hearing right now, the ones that show up on the main feed. You can get ad free versions of those at the $10 level. And of course you get the discord, you get merch discounts, a whole lot of other fun stuff on the Patreon. Alright. But please do call and text us at (781) 591-0390. You can email us at forever35podcast.com. Kate, let's talk about our intentions.
Kate: Alright, Doree.
Doree: Okay,
Kate: So last week I had said I'm going to stick with my journaling, my 750 word journal. I am doing it. I'm going to do it after we record today.
Doree: You're kind of selling me on this.
Kate: It's definitely a commitment.
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: It's more work than I thought it was going to be.
Doree: Right?
Kate: Not more work, but just it takes time.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that I, I do my one line a day journal at night before bed, and that's when I've already put away my, well, I still have my iPad, but I read on my iPad. But I think that would be when I would journal and the thought of just getting my computer out is,
Kate: I think it has to be a morning, like a daytime practice. Yeah. I'm trying to do it when I first wake up. My intention is really to kind of.
Doree: That's smart. Yeah. Okay.
Kate: And then this week my intention is to write some love letters to my some close friends.
Doree: Oh my gosh.
Kate: Yeah. I have this little stationary set that I bought in Arizona in the Grand Canyon, and I bought it with the intention of sending them notes on it, but I haven't done it yet. So I would like to do that
Doree: Ever since one of our first guests, Danielle Henderson, talked about how,
Kate: I'll forget it,
Doree: she hand writes letters. I've always been like, I want to do that. And I never do.
Kate: You know what? I have done it a little bit more recently and it's really, I love doing it. And then it's such an extra special treat when somebody writes you back.
Doree: Totally.
Kate: It's really nice. So that's my plan. How about you?
Doree: Well, Kate, last week I was going to try to be chill about travel.
Kate: Are you feeling chill because you're about, you're, you're heading there.
Doree: I'm feeling a little more chill if I know you read my newsletter
Kate: Oh my God, , oh my God. It made me laugh so hard
Doree: about travel anxiety.
Kate: Can I say Something?
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: If you don't subscribe to Doree's newsletter, you're missing out. This is not a plug that Doree knew I was going to make.
Doree: Oh no, I didn't.
Kate: Look, I spend a lot of time with you and you're my in real life friend. I talk to you and I still can't get enough of this newsletter.
Doree: Oh, Kate, that's so nice.
Kate: I try to read it every time it comes in my inbox. Sometimes I let them build up, but I was reading it this morning and cackling to myself.
Doree: Well, I also think if you know me, i r l, it's probably funnier even because like, it's funny you say that because I was sorry and we did not mean to do this, but this is an aside that I've been doing this newsletter for over a year and I feel like it, it's only been very recently that I've sort of hit my stride.
Kate: It seems like you are speaking in a more authentic voice. Is That,
Doree: I think that is accurate
Kate: to say. Yeah.
Doree: Yeah. And so thank you to everyone who believed in me who subscribed from the beginning and bore with me beared with me. Sure.
Kate: Either one works for me. Yeah,
Doree: Because I do feel like it took me a while and maybe that's what happens when you don't have an editor. You're just kind of like, you're kind of just figuring it out for yourself. But yeah, it's been fun. It's been fun and I did feel like the issue that came out well now it will have come out a week and a half ago. I was like, this is very me.
Kate: So you talk about how you wanted to buy yourself an elevated travel outfit.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: But they are expensive.
Doree: They're very expensive.
Kate: You do not have the money to burn on those things right now.
Doree: I do not.
Kate: So you made your own cool travel pants.
Doree: I did.
Kate: Tell us how you did that.
Doree: Well, Kate, I took a measuring tape and well, first I tried on these sweatpants that I had from Target that were kind of flares
Kate: Cute, but long were
Doree: Cute, But always a little long on me. And so I feel like I never wore them as much as I should have because every time I wore them I was like, these are a little too long. And then I was like, oh my gosh, these pants that I've been scouring the internet for literally, I mean I'm sure you can relate to this as someone who hyper focuses.
Kate: Oh yes.
Doree: For hours. I was looking at sweatpants, most of which cost more than a hundred dollars. And I was like, this is bananas. Is this what sweatpants cost? Now some of them had unfinished hems and I was like, what? Anyway, it was actually the ones with the unfinished hems that made the light bulb go off in my brain because I was like, oh, I can just cut these target sweatpants. And I did, and I really like them.
Kate: You sent us a photo and I was like, oh, I would pay money for these Doree sweatpants,
Doree: right? Yes.
Kate: They looked great.
Doree: Thank you. So I wrote about that.
Kate: I think it's on a further episode, I would like to get into the psychology of why we all feel like we need travel outfits now.
Doree: Well, I blame influencers
Kate: 110% and which for that we can blame capitalism, which seems totally seems to make sense.
Doree: It's funny, I got a text from a friend who said, loving your travel outfit post. And then they said that they had bought the travel set that I posted
Kate: That you linked to, which I have looked at so many times. The expensive one. And then I click on the price tag.
Doree: And Frank and Eileen, yes.
Kate: I recoil and run away.
Doree: And she said, so I bought the Frank and Eileen Travel set because I was having all of the same thoughts and then I returned it.
Kate: Oh my God, really?
Doree: And I was like, I feel vindicated.
Kate: Okay. I love it.
Doree: I was really happy to receive that text.
Kate: Well, I think it is a good point in that we can always try to look to what we have first and see what we can do with the things that we already own
Doree: And sometimes the things that we own can be modified. Yes. So anyway, this week we have less than a month to go before my husband turns 40.
Kate: Oh my God. It's 40 this year.
Doree: It's 40.
Kate: Matt's turning 40.
Doree: Matt's turning 40.
Kate: That's a big one.
Doree: It's a big one.
Kate: Oh, happy birthday, Matt.
Doree: Yeah. So I think if we had more money I would take him somewhere, but right now we're kind of broke, so we can't really do anything. So I'm trying to think of ways I can make his birthday feel special without spending a lot of money.
Kate: Can we have a party?
Doree: Yeah.
Kate: Can it be like a big beach party? Does Matt like the beach?
Doree: Matt does not love the heat.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: Or the sun. So you want to keep it cool.
Kate: Okay. So not the beach, but an inside. You could do something inside.
Doree: Something air conditioned.
Kate: Air conditioned. Okay.
Doree: So think of something please. And you let me know.
Kate: Okay.
Doree: He's kind of like you, I think. In that like,
Kate: Yeah. We share a lot of similar, anxieties. Yeah. Yeah.
Doree: So it's a little hard to think about, but we'll figure something out. Okay.
Kate: Oh, happy birthday Matt. Husband of the pod.
Doree: Pod husband. Forever35 is hosted and produced by Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer. Produced and edited by Sam Junio, Sami Reed is our project manager, network Partners is Acast. And Matt is a Leo.
Kate: So technically a summer birthday.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: I will honor it.
Doree: Thank you.
Kate: I will honor it.
Doree: Okay. Bye everybody.