Episode 268: Like What You Like with Samantha Irby
“I’m so afraid sometimes to be earnest because it’s like people don’t want to let you.”
- Samantha Irby
Kate and Doree are stoked for their live show TONIGHT! Then, writer Samantha Irby comes on the pod to discuss her new book Quietly Hostile, the danger of being earnest in today’s society, the comfort of nostalgia TV and gentle romance books, and the joy (and fear) of being honest about your body.
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Transcript
Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about all the things we do to take care of ourselves. I'm Kate Spencer,
Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir.
Kate: And we're not experts
Doree: We're not, we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums
Kate: And Doree today.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: The day that this episode is airing.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: If you are listening to this episode, the day it comes out, we want to remind you that we are doing a live digital show.
Doree: Oh Yeah, baby.
Kate: That means it's online and anyone can join us. All you need to do is buy a ticket at moment.co/Forever35. The show is at 5:30 Pacific, 8:30 PM Eastern. We have an after party where you can get a ticket to that that's happening right after, and the show will stay up for a week. So even if you can't attend live, you can still watch. It means you can't participate in all the stuff we're doing. We've got giveaways. We've got listener chit chat questions. We're doing some games, but you can still get in on the fun by watching.
Doree: We have guests coming.
Kate: We do. We are so excited. We have Sammy Junio, our dear producer and our friend of the pod, Nora McInerney. Ugh.
Doree: It's going to be really great. I'm really excited.
Kate: Yeah, Because we're celebrating your birthday.
Doree: Oh yeah, we are.
Kate: And as of this airing, your birthday has just happened.
Doree: Its true. It has,
Kate: But that doesn't mean the party can't continue. I feel like you got those birthday people. Some people really do like a month of birthday.
Doree: Yes. I try not to be that person, but I do end up sometimes doing a few days of birthday. It just ends up that way.
Kate: Well, you know what? We'll talk more about this in another episode. I avoid celebrating birthdays for myself personally, but this year I think I'm going to do something for my birthday.
Doree: Yes, Kate. I'm excited for this.
Kate: I don't know what that is. I don't know what it is, but I am.
Doree: As I just assume I'm included.
Kate: What would be really weird if you weren't,
Doree: It would be
Kate: Really weird. You're one of my best friends.
Doree: I know, but what if your thing was like, I'm going to do something for my birthday, and that is go on a three day silent retreat by myself. You know what I mean?
Kate: That's fair. That's fair.
Doree: I don't know what you're planning, but
Kate: Well, I think what I meant is I'm going to do something with people. I have a lot of anxiety around throwing parties. But I'm trying to branch out a little bit.
Doree: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I'm excited for this.
Kate: Look, I would love to know what people do for their birthdays. So if you want to leave us a voicemail or a text, that number (781) 591-0390, you can always email us at forever35podcast@gmail.com.
Doree: Yes, you can do that. I should also say, we're going to be talking just generally about birthdays tonight
Kate: And remembering some of our birthdays. Yeah. Because now we're at the point where we've had a lot.
Doree: Yeah, it's true. It's true.
Kate: Remember 20 and you've had some now we've
Doree: Had many, many birthdays. And just a reminder, the link for those live show tickets is moment.co/Forever35. And who else's birthday was yesterday? Kate
Kate: Pierce Brosnon.
Doree: Sam Irby's new book
Kate: Because I did Google celebrity birthdays and it was Pierce Brosnan's birthday, but it's
Doree: Also Janet Jackson and Tori spelling, but it is also, Samantha Irby's New Book's birthday. It came out yesterday. It's called Quietly Hostile. I mean,
Kate: What can you even say?
Doree: What can you even say? Her books are just so funny and so insightful in such a sneaky way. You think you're just reading this sort of funny lighthearted essay collection, and then she just gets you with some trenching observation and you're just like, Oh God. Yes.
Kate: The essay about her brother.
Doree: Oh my God.
Kate: So good. Doree and I have read the book.
Doree: We have read the book.
Kate: Read the book from cover to cover. its so.
Doree: Yes, weve committed it to memory.
Kate: We are literally reciting it. We're doing performances of it for ourselves over text. I cackled out loud. I had emotional moments where I got choked up. It's just amazing. So if you can't tell, we are so honored to have Sam as our guest today.
Doree: Yes, Sam. This is the second time Sam's been on the show. She was on the show, we realized five years ago,
Kate: Early on,
Doree: very early.
Kate: I remember she introduced me to Burts bees's tinted Lip Balm, which I currently have here at my desk. That was one of her products that she talked about on that episode.
Doree: And if you're not familiar with her, she is a humorous and essays and the author of three previous essay collections meaty. We are Never Meeting in Real Life and Wow. No, thank you. And again, her latest essay collection is called Quietly Hostile. It came out yesterday. You are going to want this book just period, end of story. Just order it right now.
Kate: And we had, as I'm sure you can imagine, a really wonderful, fun, hilarious, heartfelt conversation, and we want to just get right to it. So without further ado, here is our chat with the incredible Samantha.
Doree: Well, Sam, we are so excited to have you back on Forever35. I honestly can't believe how long its been.
Samantha: I Know. I was just trying to remember. And it's been almost five years.
Doree: It's been almost five years.
Kate: That's right. Yeah. You came to my house with your wife. Your wife read a book.
Doree: I think she was waiting in the car though.
Kate: I think she read outside.
Samantha: Yeah. I never want to impose or you, I didn't want you to think I brought my bodyguard. So I'm like, listen, you're very intimidating. You have to stay in the car,
Kate: Stay in the car,
Samantha: And in the car. Both of your lives have changed since we've seen each other. One of you had a baby, one of you had a new book that I just got the paper back of.
Kate: Oh My goodness.
Doree: Wow.
Samantha: I got the hard back too. But then I gave that away and got the paper back.
Doree: Well, Sam, you were saying that our lives have changed since we last talked, but your life has also changed.
Samantha: Yeah.
Doree: I mean, when we first talked, I think you were in LA for your first TV writing job.
Samantha: Yeah, I was working on Shrill. Shrill with Lindy.
Kate: Yeah.
Samantha: And we were living in Martha Plimpton house, which was
Kate: That's right.
Samantha: Crazy. Which was like surreal. Can I tell you in the room that I was sleeping in her, there was a corkboard and her invitation to Barack Obama's inauguration. Was just pinned on a corkboard in her guest room. I mean, I might have a, cried. I was like, So my God, what are you saying? It wasn't even in her main bedroom. It's in the guest room. And I'm like, man, this is real fame. When you can put the Obama thing in the room, you don't go in. I was like, right. This is
Doree: Not framed, not commemorative framed, just pinned up on a cork board.
Samantha: What would you guys do you, I mean, I don't know. I would have it bronzed or something. I don't know. I was like, yes, she's cooler than I am, because I would show everyone who walked into my house. I was working on a show and having a surreal Los Angeles experience, Which I enjoy, and I like LA.
Doree: And since then you've worked on a few more shows?
Samantha: I have a few shows than six or seven people watch. And then one show that millions of people watched and hated or pretended to hate for the internet. Yeah,
Kate: Yeah. Did you work on the second season of And Just Like That also?
Samantha: I did, but I didn't say shit about it because everyone's trying to eat my breakfast last time. So I was like, well, yeah, I'll wait until the show comes out and people see my name on it before I post anything. So at least I can minimize the ridicule until there's actually a show that people can see and judge and lie about hating.
Kate: So I actually think this ties into the first essay in your new book because Yes. And you write about the response that people had to And just like that. And then you do a brilliant, just utter, just tear down buildup of sex and the city in your own eyes, which is amazing. But you're writing about the feeling of creating something that then people just take pleasure and shitting all over very publicly. And you also kick off the book writing about just liking what you like and the ways in which other people love to come down on the things that we like. And I think, I feel like those two things kind of tie together, having the courage to be upfront about what we like because there's so much pressure.
Samantha: Okay, yes. Thank you for saying that. Because I felt when writing it, I was like, ah, is this just a me thing? But
Kate: No, it's so real.
Samantha: It feels, I mean, I hesitate more. I would rather, I dunno, describe, well, no, I was going to say describe a bowel movement, but that's something I'm fully comfortable doing
Kate: Also in the book,
Samantha: I would rather you look at my medical chart than I admit to you some of the things I watch and enjoy. Right. Well, two wouldn't like judge me, but we all know those people who are just like, wait, they know you're going to say yes, amazing race, and they're waiting so they can jump on you and yell at you for not watching Barry or whatever. And it's like, I could watch that. Ill, I'm not avoiding that, but also I like to watch screaming cousins racing around the world. I mean, come on. But yeah, so the gotcha of it all is so it, I've gotten to the point where I don't tell anyone. I don't actually know what I'm listening to or reading or whatever, because every time I post a book on Instagram, someone will, first of all, someone will say, oh, you read that, or you're reading that. And it's like, well, yeah, bitch, I posted. You see the phrases, I made those. And then there's inevitably someone who's like, I hate that author. And everything he writes sucks. First of all, I don't operate on the internet that way. I just think nobody needs to hear, well, first of all, I think whenever there's something, I don't, don't think it's bad. I just think it's not for me because who am I to judge what's bad? It's just not for me. That show Chernobyl, not my kind show. It's probably amazing. I didn't watch it not, not going to watch it.
Doree: But thats the thing. This idea that everything should be for everyone.
Samantha: Yes. And that you have to adjust, or not you, but whoever made it has to adjust their thing for this one specific person rather than that one person putting down the remote and being like, Hmm, I don't like that. I'm going to go do something else. It is insane to me that the art has to change and not the consumer of it. So I'm always trying to, because I feel so much shame all the time and have felt ashamed of the things I like. And so I wanted to just be like, okay, if there are other people like me, here's what I do. And it's very awkward, but you could do it too. And just when someone's shitting on something you love just reiterating over and over that you like it and it, it's so awkward, but it's also so satisfying. And I just want people to, I don't know, I feel like shit about so many things. I know you guys do too. I can't feel like shit about a show I didn't make and produce and pay for. And just enjoyed watching. I want everyone to feel less bad about things we don't have to feel bad about.
Kate: How has it made you feel to stop apologizing less? Because this is an intention I always have, and I've never really quite figured out tools to do it. and its really intriguing.
Samantha: Kate you know I'm failing, failing at it. Anyone who tries to stop apologizing, I'm bumped into a thing in the grocery store and was like, sorry, two days ago. Just as my I, I can admit this, I need to be liked. I don't know if I need to be liked as much as I just don't want anyone to ever be mad at me.
Kate: Me too.
Doree: I have the same thing.
Samantha: And so when you are like that, the apologize. It's like my knee jerk reaction to everything. Sorry, don't be mad at me. Sorry. Sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. Are we good now that I've said I'm sorry. And so it's hard. It's hard. It's hard. But I have, I've stopped the casual drive by apologies. But I really do have to seal my lips, have to cover my mouth, so I don't apologize.
Doree: Apology is not the default right. Anymore.
Samantha: It is silence while I try to think of something else to say. That's not, I'm sorry.
Doree: Right. Okay.
Kate: Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.
Doree: Another aspect of like, well, I like it. Culture, I guess that I appreciated in your book was your essay about Dave Matthews
Samantha: My king.
Doree: First of all, I just want to say that I think an aspect of this whole thing that you point out so well is that people assume you're doing a bit Yes. When you say you like the Dave Matthews Band, so insidious to me that are ironically into something that they have decided someone can only be into ironically.
Samantha: Yes. Yes. Or that someone who looks like me or is interested in the things, they've decided that those things don't go together. And so then I have to be like, okay, let's break it down. I am from the suburbs. I, I started high school in 1993. I was in marching band. Take What About Me? And kind of add those things. And then it starts to make a little more sense. I was listening in high school. I really, oh my God, I loved whole Sarah McLaughlin. Oh God. Not the first album. The second album was truly, I wore the cassette out. And so it is like people who don't know that part or who assume I'm cooler than I am are always like, oh, this is a joke. You're always doing a joke. And I'm like, well, I'm not always doing a joke. And I'm especially not doing a joke about Dave Matthews because I really, all of 'em, he, I think especially as I've gotten older, I have leaned more into, oh my God, why am I going to tell you this? Sometimes when you're listening to a thing and there's a terribly violent lyric or a have to watch out for someone saying something that's going to upset you, and I can handle violence and whatever, but I don't want to have the beat that Bitch up song come on. So it's nice to just put on a thing where you're like, this is inoffensive and no one will get mad at me for playing it. Although people who hate fiddle music might
Kate: I, well, I think it's just all kind of, as a romance writer and reader, I spent literally a year and a half only reading these Ice Planet Barbarian Alien sex books and alien romance books. And people assume we talked about that. It's a joke or that I don't really genuinely like it, ironically, all those things. But I think one of the reasons some of these things are so soothing is there is comfort in the rest of our lives are filled with a lot of pain and anger and I injustice and horribleness. And so as you said, Chernobyl is, the TV show was all those things that didn't provide any relief. And it's interesting to me culturally, especially with highbrow culture, why things that are just digestible and feel good and kind of soft in the way that a Dave Matthews album might be like, why is that not treated with the same prestige? I don't know, just food for thought as I sit there in my corner
Samantha: Yeah, Thinking about you as a romance novelist. I don't want to say they get no respect, but they are not revered in the way they should be, especially considering how huge the audience is, how well the books do. It's, if business books were selling the way romance books sold, people would be like, oh my God, it's a revolution. But because I dunno if it's that tough as Nails America thing, which I we're tough, but I don't know if it's like that that makes people see a soft thing, see a tender thing and write it off it's lifetime movies, how now it's like, oh, if you watch them, you're watching them, ironically. And it's like, well, I kind of want to know who the babysitter slept with or whatever. I'm not making fun of this. I think earnestness, it's so scoffed at and we're, so, I find I'll speak for myself. I'm so afraid sometimes to be earnest because it's, people don't want to let you. Right. Or everybody's racing to say the thing back to you that's like, yes, snarky and rude. And it's like, oh, I was just trying to tell you a saying that is nice.
Doree: Right. Or you have to qualify it by saying it's a guilty pleasure, which is the worst.
Samantha: I don't ever say that.
Doree: Yeah, it's horrible. Just on a purely personal note, it was so funny to me that you had the last normal day essay, which is about right before the, what did you call it? The Lockdown? And then you had the essay about Dave Matthews because the last normal weekend I had before lockdown, I spent in Las Vegas going to a Dave Matthews show
Samantha: Worth it. That is the ideal way to usher in a lockdown, global pandemic. So jealous. Oh my God. Wow. How was he? Was it amazing?
Doree: He was Amazing. And it was a small venue, and I think it was at the Cosmo, which is a small theater, but I just remember reading the news and my parents were here watching my son, who was then a baby, and I texted my mom and I was like, I'm going to order some toilet paper to be sent to the house.
Samantha: Toilet paper. Why did we have a ring on toilet paper?
Doree: I don't know. I definitely bought into that whole panic though. Oh,
Samantha: Oh We did too.
Kate: Totally.
Samantha: And we sprayed it with Lysol and left it on the front steps
Doree: And wiped down our groceries.
Samantha: Yes, we did all of that. We did all,
Kate: we didn't know. We were doing the best we could with the information that we had.
Doree: Oh my God. But Sam, you're, I realized how much I'd sort of blocked out about those early days when I was reading your essay and it all came flooding back. Like sing Happy Birthday while you, you're washing.
Samantha: All the stuff that happened in the very beginning is just like, Ugh, I can't get over it. I think that's why I wrote about it, because that is the part I think that flummoxes me the most is that no one, there's was no Dan Rather telling us just to sit tight. You remember when not to bring up happy times, but do you remember when 911 happened? And it was like the news was on it. Every channel was saying the same thing. Maybe they were lying and colluding, who knows? But they at least were all saying the same thing, and we all were getting the same information. And with this, it was just like, oh no, we are adrift. It's like you're lost in scene.
Kate: Well, It's this, the way Walter Cronkite is revered is like America's newsman and how everybody felt all when JFK was assassinated and everyone tuned into the news and felt held, that is gone. That doesn't exist.
Samantha: We Don't have not one person that you're like, oh, I turned him. He's reliable. I turned to her. She always has the facts. It's just like, well, I guess I could see what M S N BBC is saying, right?
Kate: And read Twitter.
Samantha: That is tough for me. I think that is truly one of the ways in which I am feeling being a middle-aged person, is that things like I want the newspaper to really be correct is important to me. I don't know that I've thought about that ever in life before the past few years. And now I'm like, what link is that? I don't know if I can click it. What if it's lies? And that it's a stressful way for us all to live. I'm not a fact checker. I just want to click a thing, put in my credit card number because you can't read anything without it. And then read the article and know that it's real. But maybe we'll go back to that. Maybe.
Kate: Maybe.
Doree: Yeah. I mean, it is scary the way it does feel like our entire society has been destabilized,
Kate: Which is why we are all listening to Dave Matthews and reading gentle books.
Samantha: Yes. Okay. The nostalgia. Are you guys feeling super nostalgic? Because I thought any nineties movie. All the dad thrillers, I'm like, yep, I'm going to watch everything Tommy Lee Jones ever made. I'm going to listen to all Annie DeFranco everything I listened to in my high school
Kate: Oh, I did that recently. And
Samantha: You love I would it, Like putting on a warm blanket.
Kate: Yes. And even just, I was like, oh, I remember this version of my feminism, my 1998 fem it. But it did feel just like, oh yeah, I am 32 flavors. And then some, it felt good. I truly just went through this an my God, an re-listen. Yes. And all my college friends were like, Ugh. And I was like, I know. But also,
Samantha: Yes. So good. No, yeah. Don't let them shame you. Just, I like it.
Kate: Well, it makes me feel like I feel too young to be doing this, but I am at the, I'm 44 almost. It's like, no, I am, my parents the age. I don't know where I saw my parents doing this, where it was constant Fleetwood Mac in the car or whatever. There's this comfort in holding onto the way things were. It just felt co, it just felt, and it wasn't safer, but it felt safer in a way. I don't know. Yeah, I I'm doing that too, for sure.
Samantha: No, It feels cozy and has the added bonus of you don't have to learn anything new. You don't have to figure out there have. So we have access to so much right now. And I love it. I love that whatever obscure thing you can just pull up on Spotify, but also it's like, well, who tells me which thing is good now? Or which thing is worth my time? Or how can I, 700 albums came out yesterday, how do I know which one to listen to? So rather than deal with that, I'm just like, well, let me dust off this Tori Amos from 1995 and just listen to that. I already know. I like that. So I get it. I totally, I wish I could go back and tell my parents I was sorry for scoffing at their Anita Baker and Al Green in the car. Cause I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it.
Kate: Well, and have you talk about being cool with teenagers and how to communicate with teenagers in your book, and I know you are a stepmother to kids that age. Do you feel a disconnect from that generation? Do you, do you look at them and see hope? What is your relationship to Gen Z and beyond and the world in which what they're creating?
Samantha: I love that they are so engaged and active in a way that, I mean, I don't know that in high school I could have told you, I mean, I'm sure I knew who the president was, but I didn't know anything about politics or policy. And I love that these kids are involved and stoked about trying to change things or at least feeling like they can change things. Because I'm at the point now where I'm like, oh, I'm going to die. This is going to be the same when I die. Everything will still be the same. There's no hope. And the kids actually have hope, which feels good on a cultural level. A lot of times I do not know what these kids are talking about. I do not know what my stepdaughter, the other day was talking about being on a Discord server. And I was like, oh, are you programming something? And she looked at me, she just watched me eat my own vomit. She was just, and I was like, you know what? I made a mistake. I asked you a question.
Kate: I'll never Do that again.
Samantha: I Retracted and I will. And so then I had to go get my phone and look up what a discord server is. But I think the kids are cool. They're funny kids now are just fu, I mean, it's probably a byproduct of being on the internet, being raised by the internet that everybody's so quick. But I mean, I love it. I do not have the energy to do anything that they do, but I do. I mean, think the kids are going to be okay. I think we're giving them a shit sandwich and they're going to figure out how to make it good. Or at least I hope the kids in my house. I mean, oh my God, they have too many opinions. They are too loud. They have selective hearing. I y'all know. Well, Doree, you're about to know as your little one gets older, you could be talking right into their ear. But if it's something they don't want to hear or a chore you want them to do, they don't hear it. They're like, oh yeah, You told me to what? And I'm like, you were looking. We had made eye contact.
Doree: My son will say, telling you that. My son will just say, mama, don't say that. Mama don't say that. Mama don't say that.
Samantha: Okay. I'm going to try that. When someone wants something from me, I don't want to do, I'm just going to say, don't say that. Don't say that.
Doree: Don't say that.
Samantha: Dont Say that. The one thing, okay, I want to hear this from you as parents, because I feel like a moron feeling this way. But do you want your kids or do you want to know that your kids think you're cool? The chapter I wrote about how to look cool in front of teens. It's just my trial and error of, I just want them to be like, yeah, my stepmom's dope. They're not impressed by the books, by the tv.
Kate: Thats so Wild. Because you're so cool. I'll give anything for you to be my stepmom.
Samantha: They don't care. I will be your stepmom.
Kate: Thank you. Thank you.
Samantha: What's your dad up to?
Kate: I mean, he'scRemarried, but we can He's great.
Samantha: We'll work it out. Do they
Kate: The three of You can figure it out. Yeah.
Samantha: We'll do a communal thing. Come on. It embarrasses me when I think about it. Why is this important to me? But it is. And then I wonder if other people, guys are you? I hope my kid looks at me as a cool person.
Kate: Yes. Well, yes. And I think there are times that I have broken through and they do. And then there are time. And then most of the time, no. And even when I try to brag, if we're watching a TV show and I'm like, oh, I know them. I used my Hollywood old comedy connections. It's cool to them for a second Wait. It doesn't make me cool.
Doree: They think that the person who had taken your headshot 20 years ago, oh,
Kate: He's the coolest. The person who took me and my husband's headshot in New York 20 years ago is now a massive YouTube star named Jordan Matter. And my kids and their friends were like, what the fuck? Jordan matter. Now I don't know him. I met him once and he took a photo of me and that was the coolest Ive been.
Doree: But I just love that that was the thing.
Kate: But I do think we'll never be cool. But I don't know if it's cool. I think what I want them to feel is comfortable with and their friends, I want them to feel safe with me and that I accept them no matter what. And that they can talk to me about stuff that feels uncomfortable. And I know they won't always, because that's what your peers are. You no teen does. But that is my goal. But I did, I do try to impress my daughter. I did interview Pedro Pascal 10 years ago, and the clip came up on TikTok recently, and I was like, yeah, you guys know I interviewed Pedro Pascal and that I think the, I'm not cool because of it, but it didn't quite work. Maybe it registered, but yeah, I don't know. It's really hard.
Samantha: Any tangential celebrity, anything. I'm like, oh my God, I talked to her one time.
Kate: Yes.
Samantha: Oh, shut up.
Kate: Who, I don't know if you're feeling this, but the feeling of irrelevance that I'm starting to feel about how I don't impact culture. My generation is not the cool one. I am just trying to fucking figure out what is going on now. And I really feel that. And I have a lot more empathy for older generations now because I'm like, me too,
Samantha: My God, me too. And the feeling that there just is so many things we just don't know or I just don't know. I remember when TikTok blew up, the little one was really into it. And I was like, I don't even know what that is. Where did you get that? How do you know about it? And I know some people's reaction is like, oh, that shouldn't exist if I don't know about it. Never. I think they should have a million apps, anything that keeps them from bothering me. But I also was how, I don't have my finger on the pulse. I don't have anyone young who tells me about new stuff. And that makes me feel scared and old.
Doree: So we're just going to take a short break and we will be right back.
Kate: Can I ask you, I just wanted to get your thoughts on grief because you wrote about your parents dying and I like the way you talk about grief, because I think it's a way, speaking of things, we're too, we feel a lot of shame admitting, but you write about the kind of grief that comes across to me as it's relief. You ask, is it bad that I don't miss them? And you describe it as feeling the grief you wrote, the grief I live with feels like when you suddenly remember a famous person, you is dead. And I think this kind of grief is not accepted as ne or talked about or anything. And I was so glad you put it into words. I just was wondering, I mean, it's not a real question, but just could you touch on this a little bit about. Your experience with grief, and if you also think it's not one that we really talk about, but is one, I think a lot of us have felt or do feel,
Samantha: Yeah, it's taboo to, it's not speaking ill of the dead to be honest about the dead person. Right? I am, first of all, no one talk you. I cannot relate to. You see people and their parents have been dead for however long and they're still crying. I don't relate to that. Right? That's how grief is modeled for us. And if you don't do that, then you feel like you're doing something wrong or I'm a bad kid because I don't have a framed photo in every room. You know what I mean? It, we've turned everything into a competition and grief is certainly one of those things who can be the most profoundly affected. But first of all, I don't want my grief to last very long. It doesn't serve me. It doesn't honor the memory in any way. It's just me kind of torturing myself. So that's one part of it. Another is that I am very clear on who my parents were and what life would be like if they were alive right now. And it would be terrible. Either they'd be sick and dragging on me that way, dragging me down that way. And I know people are going to think that. That's not nice to say, but it's true. We have to be honest. They would be a drain on me now, or they'd be like irritating bothering me. I certainly wouldn't be writing about my life in this kind of detail if they were around. But I think in general, I would love to see, I don't know how this happens, but I would love to see us move away. It's almost like you're holding a candle for your boyfriend, except it's your dead mom who will never come back. We need to figure out how to, I don't know. There's probably a psychiatrist listening to this right now, being like, this is unhealthy. But I mean, you have to move on. You have to keep living. Right? And it's like, I would never want to. And then you have to involve other people in it when they're like, oh, hey, you haven't talked in two days. And it's like, well, my mom died 19 years ago. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Can't be. I can have private moments that I think about things. I can have memories, I can have all of that stuff, but the performance of grief, I don't have to do it. And I don't have to stoke the grief inside of me. I think that's what a lot of people do. They're afraid to look callous or uncaring or whatever it is. They're people are watching me, so if I laugh, they're going to think, I don't care that my mom died. And it's like I, it's sad that anyone would feel that way because we should all be like, oh, your mom died and you think a joke is funny. Great. Yeah, let's keep moving into that space. So I hope that there are other people who have talked openly about, I don't get wistful when I hear someone says my mom's name or someone asks me. And it's just like, people are taken aback by that. And I'm like, but if I cried, you would be like, you're an unhinged lunatic. She's been dead for 25 years. Figure it out. So I think, I dunno how people get to this place, but I do want that for everyone who's lost. Someone that you can put it in perspective, but continue living your life.
Kate: So I love that. I appreciate that too because I am definitely of the other category. My mom died and it rocked my world and I still am grief. Great grief, grief, grief. But I think we, that only represents also one kind of relationship with a parent. And there's so many different relationships that people have with folks who die, and not all of them are fucking butterflies and roses.
Samantha: Yeah. I mean, if we're talking, I mean, this is the real insensitive, unemotional shit. But if we're talking about the real costs of older parents, especially mine who had nothing would've continued to have, nothing would require I take care of them. It's like, oh no, I couldn't have my life if they were alive. So thank you for your service. Thank you for your ova and your sperm. I hope whatever's afterlife is great or is nothing. I just hope it's not bad. But I'm going to move on. I'm going to Marie Kondo my parents. I'm going to be like, thank you for your service.
Kate: Right.
Samantha: Goodbye.
Kate: This doesn't bring me joy anymore. Here we go.
Doree: This is just me being a nosy bitch. And you don't have to answer.
Samantha: No, I will answer anything
Kate: My favorite. Kind of kidding.
Doree: What Is your relationship with your brother now?
Kate: We very moving.
Samantha: We are texting. I really would like to go to Memphis and have a reunion, so we're going to figure out when we can do that.
Doree: Oh wow.
Samantha: So I didn't even want to write about him. I wrote about him a couple books ago because I was writing about spreading our dad's ashes and how I felt bad it because maybe he wanted some. Now he is a normal person. When I told him was like, no, I don't want a cup of gravel. That used to be our Dad, But it, I thought it, I mean, I don't use the word magical, but it truly felt magical that randomly his daughter saw my book and was like, that name also, you look my Dad, and then reached out. It was so amazing. And here's the best part, I don't really know him that well. So we don't have a ton of negative history. Whereas my sisters, who I've known my whole life, I'm like, well jump into a volcano. I'm sick of them. With him, it's like there's no old 1987 problems to bubble up. I always find with my siblings, it's like, okay, we're fighting about what's happening right now, but also we're kind of fighting about the thing you did when I was 12. And that is exhausting. And with him, I don't have any of that baggage. And it's like, it's so nice. I will say though, that I was the thing that, so that worried me the most about remeet him or whatever is I do, I have all this stuff out in the world, and I didn't know if that would be scary to him. Oh, hey sister, who's written three books about our family. I was so nervous that he would be nice to meet you. Don't ever talk to me again. But he, he's so nice. Also, it's just really nice to find your brother and find that he's a nice guy. He's really sweet.
Doree: I'm really happy to hear that.
Samantha: Aw, thank you.
Kate: Well, we should probably let you go. And before we do, Can we just do a brief kind of chit chat about peeing? Because Not to brief urine, but I feel like we can in this conversation, and you just have this amazing chapter in your book that starts off, I mean, it starts off with a relationship and person you're dating who's like you becomes more and more clear that their kink is piss kink. But then also you just kind of delve into the way in which our bodies just give up on being able to hold in our pee. Which is something in the last year, it has been overwhelming and shocking. And it's one of those things that I try to hide and don't want anyone to know. And I guess just this idea of getting older and the way our bodies just kind of sell us out. I don't know. I mean, this is very ableist sounding I think, in saying this because we ultimately have no control over these vessels of flesh that we're in. But what the fuck is up with peeing?
Samantha: I think the problem is that we think we're in control. You grow up thinking, this is on me. If I exercise, this happens. If I do this, this happens. And then you hit an age where it's like, oh, now I learned this early because of the Crohn's disease. I knew I was not in charge of anything inside, and I am at the whim of my intestines. But the rest of the body is also like, well, good morning. We can't hold our pee anymore. There's like no warning sign, no nothing. If I even think about a bathroom, I got to go and I have to go soon. And I might dribble a little if it takes too long to get my pants off. I see you guys are both drinking water. And I do also have an Owella water bottle. They are the best.
Kate: Oh, the best. Oh, oh, serious.
Samantha: God. So good. But it's like, I could never be a walk around with a water bottle person because I will have an emergency. And that is just so cruel. I mean, maybe the cruelest part is, you know, hit your forties, you got your stuff, you're like, this is my house. Look at my nice bed, or whatever it is that you have. And it's like, I've made it. I feel good. And then your rotten, rotten pre corpse is like, oh, you can't drink water anymore without it immediately draining out of you. I guess it's a way to keep us all humble, but I'm peeing constantly on everything. I would say it's gross, but it It's a part of me now.
Kate: Yes. It's also the truth about our bodies, right? This is really what is happening. Yes. And for so long, I feel like, especially I, I've been so conditioned never to discuss what's going on with my body. You're just sitting in a meeting bleeding out of your fucking vagina.
Samantha: Yeah.
Kate: And you're just going on with your life. I mean, I think that a lot of people go through life being taught not to speak about these physical things we're experiencing. So I think
Samantha: It does a disservice to us all if. Here's how I'm going to frame my work in a positive light. Because usually I'm like, it's just poop jokes. But if reading my stuff frees up anyone to just, and I mean little, I'm talking little ways, say getting up from the table and being like, I'm going to poop. I'm not going to check my lipstick or text on the toilet. I am going to move my bowels. Then I will feel like this work is not in vain. I just feel like if we talk about our stuff more, and I'm, I'm going to say that this is true because people now constantly tell me about their bodies. It makes us closer. We feel less freakish. It's just everybody tells someone today, someone you don't live with that you have to poop and say it. It's normal. Don't be ashamed. I'm just trying to get us all there.
Doree: I mean, I have definitely said to Kate when we're scheduled to record, I need 10 minutes. I have to poop. Or I'm pooping. My poop is taking longer. Longer than I thought.
Samantha: I love that. I love, it's just,
Doree: It just like, if I can't say it to Kate, who are you going to say it to? Who can say it to? But yes, I think we, you're totally right. It should just be normalized across the board. Sam, this is running on May 17th also, by the way, your book is coming out on my birthday. So I really feel like it was meant to be just a special present to myself.
Samantha: Just for you.
Doree: Your book is a Taurus, which I also respect.
Kate: Oh Look at that Doree, You have. I have never heard you assign an astrological sign to a book. But I love it. I love it.
Samantha: The Title fits a Taurus book.
Doree: Listen. It does. The book feels very torian, I have to say. Okay. And as a tourist, sun and moon, I feel that I can say this.
Samantha: Oh yes. You are the expert.
Doree: Thank you. Thank you. Sam, this is coming out on the 17th. I know you're doing some events for your book. Are there some coming up that people can get Tickets to? Where can they find that info?
Samantha: Well, I should have a web. I do have a website, but nothing's on it. But my agent's phone number.
Doree: You know what, they should just call your agents
Samantha: If you go Okay. For the events, if you want. Do I have it linked on my newsletter? No, I don't. Okay. You could go to random. Go to Random House and put my name in and all my tour stuff will pop up.
Doree: Okay.
Samantha: That's it. That's terrible. I am the worst self-promoter. Like click six links to get to.
Doree: Well, maybe by May 17th you'll have it on your website.
Samantha: Yes, that is, I need to call a web designer. But that is, you are correct. I can do that.
Doree: Yes. We're going to manifest this for you.
Samantha: Yes, I can do that. I can get some info on my website.
Doree: What is your website?
Samantha: Well, it's SamanthaIrby.com. But don't go there because there truly is nothing but a picture of a toilet and my agent's number. But I have a substack, which is SamanthaIrby.substack.com Which, you know, I've been slow to update lately. I got to get back on that. But yeah,
Doree: But every time you do send one out.
Kate: Oh Boy.
Doree: Oh I just get a little jolt.
Samantha: I have Another one coming today. It's coming. I got you. I, you know what, I'm going to shout you guys out. I'm going to link all your books and you show
Doree: that's so nice. Thank you.
Samantha: Because I love you.
Doree: Well, we Love you and I mean, I wish you would just come on every episode, but I guess that's probably not possible.
Kate: I texted Doree my favorite line of your book I was reading and it's just like, I really regret doing podcasts and I was like, ha, haha. I can't wait.
Doree: Anyway, on that note, thank you for coming on our show. Thank you.
Kate: Thank you, youre the best.
Samantha: I would do this whenever. I love you both so much. I almost, I didn't have time. I almost dipped over to Costco to get a sweatshirt, some solidarity. So I will do that after.
Doree: Thank you. I am wearing my Carol Hawkmans. Mm.
Kate: Those are good at Costco Undies also, Costco has great Eddie Bauer pajamas right now.
Samantha: Oh,
Kate: You know, the things I know about
Samantha: About you are like can get, we get you a deal with them.
Kate: Let me tell you, I've spent so much money at Costco. It's like obscene.
Samantha: No, for real. You are like, I buy stuff because you post stuff. Can I reach out to Costco and be like, you let
Kate: Them, I don't think they work with influencers or any, anybody. I've never seen anybody doing a branded ad. I don't
Doree: They don't have to. Don't have to. They're that good. Yeah, I know.
Samantha: But we could at least get you some free butter or cheese, whatever.
Doree: Some free rotisserie chickens.
Samantha: Yes something a big pallet of croissants. I'm going to see if I can figure that out for you. Cause you just are my costco guru.
Kate: Appreciate it. That is truly such an honor. I love Costco. I mean, again, when, that's another thing where I'm like, I love this thing and people are like l o l, and I'm like, no, no. I really buy my jeans there. It's great. It's my favorite place.
Doree: Well, thank you Sam.
Kate: Thank you for everything.
Samantha: So welcome. I love you both. I love all the kids, the husbands, everybody.
Doree: Well, right back at you.
Kate: Well, I mean, Doree, what else is there to say?
Doree: I just love that person. I love the human being. Samantha Irby.
Kate: I know. And also, I'm not going to say, I'm not going to lie, I also love the writer because truly, I just think one of the funniest writers writing words right now.
Doree: Yes. I think that that is accurate. I agree with that assessment. Everyone should read. Everyone should read her. And if you ever read her previous books, you should pick those up too.
Kate: Just get a whole collection.
Doree: Just get the Sam Irby collection.
Kate: Oh the Sam Irby collection. What do you remember the lifetime collection? Those infomercial. Yes. Infomercials that would run at night.
Doree: Yes.
Kate: Be It would be best eighties love songs like Michael Bolton. That's what this is. This is an infomercial for the Samantha Irby collection.
Doree: For the Samantha Irby collection. Well, Kate, how are you doing in terms of feeling good at stuff?
Kate: Okay. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I have gone through what I'm going to say as a bit of a transformation in the last week.
Doree: What
Kate: I truly, and I'm going to tell you, there was an astrological eclipse last weekend, and it was supposed to be this big astrological upheaval. And I like astrology, but I don't normally feel eclipses when I tell you that I have gone through what feels like a transformation I have. It was overnight. I just was kind of like, I don't have to feel bad about stuff. I, something happened where normally I would have, I would've gotten really in my head and beaten myself up and blamed myself, and then I would've apologized and then I was in Apolo. Then I thought to myself, well, in apologizing, one, I don't need to take ownership for this. I didn't do anything. And two, when I make that apology to the person, then I'm making them take care of me. And I don't need to put that on them either. So I am going to choose not to take this on. And then I didn't.
Doree: Wow, that's great.
Kate: I don't know what's happening.
Doree: That's amazing.
Kate: I'm also a little bit feeling more comfortable, just being straightforward and not avoiding conflict.
Doree: I love this. For you,
Kate: I mean, maybe you've noticed I'm a little spicy lately.
Doree: Oh, I have noticed this.
Kate: I'm kind of in the mood to take things head on. I don't know, but I don't know where this is coming from.
Doree: I mean, I respect it.
Kate: What's happening?
Doree: You're coming into your power.
Kate: Maybe it only took 44 years and just toing on in. Better late than never.
Doree: Better late than never.
Kate: Whoa. Did you hear that? I did. We just said that at the exact same time.
Doree: I know it was, and in the same intonation
Kate: And the same kind of quiet voice. Yeah. Well, this week my intention is to take breaks from my Apple watch and I will tell you.
Doree: Oh Okay.
Kate: That is because I'm trying not to be as dependent on devices. And also I'm trying to not track, exercise and make movement a thing that needs to be tracked all the time. Can I go for a walk and not track it? And does it still count? Yes. But I have to actually practice that.
Doree: I love that. I love that.
Kate: So that's what I'm working on this week. How about you, Doree? You were doing birthday work last week.
Doree: Yeah. And just one more thing about the Apple Watch. I find myself putting it on do not disturb more just because, especially I've noticed if a text chain is popping off,
Kate: Oh my God, it's so annoying.
Doree: It's just the constant buzz on my wrist. I'm like, I cannot take this. So yeah, I've been putting myself on Do Not disturb a lot more. Anyway, I love all that. Yes. Birthday anticipation. Yeah. I mean, look, we are recording this actually before my birthday, even though this is airing after my birthday and I feel like I'm feeling sort of remarkably chill about it. I definitely, I think in the past had more anxiety around aging and now I'm just like, bring it the fuck on.
Kate: Bring it the fuck on. Says Doree. Bring it the fuck on.
Doree: Bring it the fuck on. And with that said, I feel like this is always a good time to just sort of take stock.
Kate: Yep. Kind of look back, look forward, look back around.
Doree: Look back, Look Forward. Yep, yep, yep. Just like
Kate: Every that was all the directions.
Doree: That was all the directions. Yeah. Just do a little sort of Formal self reflection. So that's all what I would like to do this week. We'll see if it actually happens. But that's my intention.
Kate: I love that. I think that's great. I will reflect with you. on this birthday. Great. Can't wait to celebrate you tonight.
Doree: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
Kate: Well look, we have to end every show with this very important announcement that the podcast Forever35 is hosted by us and produced by us Doree Shafrir and Kate Spencer. It's produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. We will talk to you all later. Have a great rest your day.
Doree: Bye.