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Episode 257: Accessing Joy with Cyndie Spiegel

Kate decides she might need to give up TikTok and Doree learns she’s got a bunch of new hair growth. Then, they welcome Cyndie Spiegel, bestselling author and the founder of Dear Grown Ass Women, to talk about finding micro joys during grief and sorrow, learning how to borrow the joy of others through gifting, and the skin-tillating “lubey” effects of a gua sha oil. 

Photo Credit: Ira James

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Transcript

Kate: Hello and welcome to Forever35, a podcast about the things we do to take care of ourselves. I am Kate Spencer. 

Doree: And I am Doree Shafrir. 

Kate: And we are not experts. 

Doree: No. But we're two friends who like to talk a lot about serums 

Kate: And friendly reminder. You can visit our website Forever35podcast for links to everything we mentioned on our show. You can find us on Instagram @Forever35podcast. You can also join the Forever35 Facebook group. Where the password to join is serums 

Doree: And you can shop our favorite products shopmy.us/Forever35. Sign up for our newsletter at Forever35 podcast.com/newsletter. And do call or text us at (781) 591-0390 or email us at Forever35podcast@gmail.com. Also, if you are listening to this on February 22nd, the day it comes out tonight, tonight we are doing our live show. If the show hasn't gone on yet, if it's before 

Kate: Come one, come all, 

Doree: Yeah, if it's before 5:00 PM Pacific, 8:00 PM Eastern, you can still get tickets at moment.co/Forever35. And it's going to be super fun. There's also going to be an after party. It's just 

Kate: Exclusive merch. 

Doree: Exclusive merch we have there. We have a lot planned, so 

Kate: We have a lot planned. 

Doree: I hope to see you there 

Kate: we're very excited. Yes, we're very excited. And you could be listening to this. It could be happening right now. So magical about time. 

Doree: Yes. Kate 

Kate: Sorry, I'm delirious. I'm so tired. 

Doree: What is so magical about time. 

Kate: I'm blown away by time today. Time is magical, Doree. Time is magical. 

Doree: Oh, well, Kate, as you observed when I logged on, I have gotten a haircut, 

Kate: But I do want to just acknowledge the fact that I saw you in person the day that you received the haircut and I didn't notice, and I'm normally a good haircut noticer. 

Doree: You did tell me that my hair looked nice. 

Kate: Oh, okay. Which I also don't like that I did that because I don't comment. I shouldn't be commenting on appearance. That's something I'm trying to be aware of when I do. 

Doree: Its Okay. I appreciate it. 

Kate: Well, your hair does and did look nice. So, 

Doree: Well, thank you so much. So this was funny. I'm settling into the chair and we're talking about what I want to do, and I said, well, I have to tell you to my hairstylist, I said, I have to tell you that I've been feeling lately, it's been really hard to style my hair, that I just have all these flyaways. It ends up looking kind of frizzy and I don't know, I was like it, if I blow dry it, it looks just sort of dry and I've static or just hairs coming out everywhere. And so I was basically, what is happening? Is my hair breaking? What is going on? And she looks at my hair and then she looks at my scalp and she's like, no, you're growing new hairs. And that's why you have all these short hairs everywhere, because those are newer hairs. And I think this is just my postpartum hair regrowth finally, 

Kate: It takes that long. 

Doree: I did have a lot of it grow back because I remember a couple years ago her saying to me, oh, you're getting regrowth. It started, I forgot the first regrowth on the back of my neck hairline, but now it's kind of more on the top, she said, which makes sense because that's what I'm seeing. So that was interesting. And she's like, no, your hair's really healthy. Why would your hair be breaking? 

Kate: Oh, weird. 

Doree: And I was like, I don't know. That's why I was so confused 

Kate: It's all this prose. I look at how good my hair is looking. 

Doree: So that was just kind of funny and a funny reframe in a way. 

Kate: Well, because growing hair and broken hair, I can see how they look the same to the layperson's eye 

Doree: Because all I'm seeing are these little hairs sort of sprouting and then hairs of different lengths. You know what I mean? And. Just what is going on is all of my hair breaking, I don't understand. And I was very confused by it, and it did not even occur to me that this could possibly be regrowth 

Kate: Doree, I'm proud of you. 

Doree: Thank you. Wait, why? 

Kate: Just, I dunno. I just feel like you're having a, I'm happy that you are. I feel like that hair has been a thing that you have discussed on the podcast before. I mean, we've talked about hair removal, but also talking about hair loss and thinning hair and all these kind of feelings about hair. And I honestly sounds like you kind of went into it even though you had thought it was breaking and actually it's growing kind of at peace with it, no matter what. Is it possible I'm projecting? 

Doree: No, I think I, you're right in the sense also of I was just like, okay, this is my hair, 

Kate: Right? 

Doree: Yeah. This is what it is. So I don't know. It's interesting. Our bodies are surprising. 

Kate: God, are they ever our bodies, I mean, my hair's, first of all, hair's the longest it's been in probably decades, but I have been very actively watching makeup tutorials from teenagers online and on TikTok. It's wild out there. Doree. 

Doree: And 

Kate: I need to, I'm watching a 14 year old putting on niacinamide on their face, and I'm like, what am I getting from this? Slash Why are you doing this teen? 

Doree: Interesting. 

Kate: I know. I'm a little, I think I need to get off TikTok again. 

Doree: Okay. It's not having a positive impact on your mental health. 

Kate: I, TikTok is its own kind of weird wormhole that I'm still grappling with how it's impacting my life. I don't know. I find it triggers the dopamine hit that we seek from our phones in a really intense way, but it also then leads to other things like impulse shopping and a lot of stuff that all happens so fast. I almost don't even realize that it's happening. And I'm not sure why you talking about hair made me think about that. But I just, I've noticed, and I also noticed the, I'll watch one thing and then my algorithm will shift over to being all of that thing without me really having much control over it. And I am it. I think it actually, here's what kind of got me thinking about it. In my quest for neutrality and acceptance, I find that the constant watching of these videos sends me away from that. It swings the pendulum in the other direction. And I'm not sure that I can achieve some of the goals I have for myself in terms of caring for myself and my mental health while also participating in some of these apps. 

Doree: Kate, this is heavy. 

Kate: Again, I didn't get much sleep last night, so I, I'm working through these things on a tired person's brain, but that just kind of made me think of that. It's been a busy week over here, so I'm a little bit fried and also kind of just pondering the world. 

Doree: Yeah, I hear you well. Oh, sorry, go ahead. 

Kate: I was going to say, our guest today is someone who ponders the world In a helpful way. 

Doree: Yes. Good segue. 

Kate: I thought that was a pretty good segue. We would love to introduce Cyndie Spiegel. She's a bestselling author, an in-demand speaker and storyteller, the founder of Dear Grown Ass Women, which is a hyper inclusive social community for women, 35 plus, which I just want to note we see 35 sees 35. Cyndie describes her life as being a little more than, excuse me. Cyndie describes her life as being more than a little eventful. She grew up on food stamps in New York, the youngest child of a black father and a white Jewish mother. And in her twenties, she traveled the world as a fashion executive, later became a professor at Parsons School and the Fashion Institute of Technology. And then in her words, at 35, she quote, imploded her life, quit her professor jobs, and completely changed careers. And then her first book, A Year of Positive Thinking, came out in 2018, which offers little bursts of courage and affirmation while steering clear of toxic positivity, which we appreciate. And her new book, Micro Joys, finding Hope, especially When Life Is Not Okay, is out next week, or excuse me. Yes. It's out next week on the 28th, and it kind of grew out of a very, very awful year in 2020. And we get into all of it with her. It's a amazing conversation. 

Doree: So we are going to be right back with Cyndie. 

Kate: Cyndie, welcome to Forever35. We're thrilled to have you here. And we like to start every interview asking our guest about a self-care practice in your life. And it's perfect because your book to me represents something that I think is a massive part of self-care which we will talk about. But first, is there something that you do in your everyday life that you consider as self-care? 

Cyndie: Yes. So many of them, this is the problem with folks with no kids. All we do is care for ourselves. I'm kidding. Not true. 

Kate: I mean, 

Cyndie: Mostly it's not true. Sounds nice. Kind of not true. But no, I actually have a, I'm going to turn my video, not that anybody else will see this, but I have a huge ritual around for evening and when I start my workday. So by my bedside, I have about three or four different aura sprays, a lot of essential oils. I have hand cream, I have lip balm, and I essentially have a duplicate of that in my office because it sets the tone. Now my husband has to wait 15 minutes to settle into bed because I have a whole thing. But it really does sort of set the tone, and it's been really helpful while working from home to have a differentiator between sort of evening bedtime and then waking up and beginning to work. 

Kate: Are you a sensory person? I like that you mentioned a spray and oils and hand cream, all those things really kind of connect with all the different senses. Is that something that resonates with you? 

Cyndie: Very much. Even in my writing, I think I get way too into detail because I'm so sensory and I'm so visual. So for me, there's something really grounding about using my senses to wind down as opposed to just laying down. It really is. Like it's very touch heavy, so yes. Yeah, 

Kate: I love that. I'm a smell person, so I love the idea of a scent, kind of differentiating a time or a mood or setting yourself up for what's next. I think that's really powerful. 

Cyndie: Also a lot of skin care, but that's a different question. A lot of skin care. 

Kate: Oh, it is, but it's a question we'll ask. So just 

Cyndie: Okay, good. 

Kate: Oh yeah, yeah. Hold that thought because we'll ask that before we wrap up. But I wanted to kind of start where you start Micro Joys, which is talking about how you have gone through a massive transformation since the beginning of 2020. And I like how you call it in the book, the time that I lived through the hardest things, and you really go into a lot of the grief and loss that you experienced. So our listeners can get a sense for what that was like for you. Can you give us the background on the last few years of your life and how it's kind of led to this book? 

Cyndie: Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start off by saying, in 2018, I wrote a book called The Year of Positive Thinking in 2020. And when shit hit the fan, I just didn't know who I was anymore because here's what happened. In 2020, 3 months into the pandemic, the same weekend that George Floyd was killed, my 32 year old nephew was murdered walking to a friend's house. My nephew lived with my mom, and she's the one who answered the door to the police at two o'clock in the morning to get that news. And four months later, my mom passed away unexpectedly. Shortly after that, within possibly a month or so, my 49 year old brother had a stroke and then immediately went into cardiac arrest and spent the next 10 weeks in the ICU . So my family had instantly become very, very tiny. So the only ones left, or it felt like at that point was my oldest brother who had just lost his son and his mother and me to sort of hold it down. And so we spent much of that time, literally three times a day. And I talk about this in the book calling the I C U because it was in the middle of a pandemic and we couldn't visit my brother for two and a half months, which is 10 weeks. My brother did come home, and he's still healing. It is a lifetime process at this point. And when he came home, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So it just felt like life kept coming. And I'll back up a tiny bit to say that after my nephew was killed, that is the sort of thing that happens on tv. It happens in true crime podcasts. It doesn't happen to you. I mean, everyone will say that until it happens to them, right? But I didn't recognize myself anymore in the sense that I have always been an eternal optimist always. And after my nephew was killed, it was so senseless that I could not make it make sense. I couldn't find anything to be happy about. I couldn't find anything to be positive about. And so even though I had been such an advocate for positive thinking and still am to this day, everything that I knew lacked the nuance that I needed at that point to really move forward. And that's really where Micro Joys came from, is me sort of really beginning to understand on a much deeper level that joy was not binary. It wasn't good vibes only, I mean, I already knew that then but it was this idea that I would have to learn from that point forward to hold two very opposite truths, grief in one hand, and joy in the other at the exact same time. And with the way everything just kept coming, I just saw no way out. And so it really happened in these tiny, almost macro moments that these things would appear in front of me that I started to shift my perspective on joy. And that's sort of the foundation of Micro Joys. 

Kate: I mentioned this to Doree before we hopped down with you, but as a person, I've written a book about grief after my mom died. And one of the things that shocked me about grieving was that you could still have happy moments. It was such, I think what you say is so true. We kind of view it before we're in it as either one or the other. Similarly to how people can be mourning the loss of a partner or a spouse and also fall in love. These things can coexist. And I don't think that's something that is talked about a lot or often even accepted. It sometimes feels like we have to make a choice of one or the other. And so this really resonated with me, obviously, as a concept for everybody, but especially I think for folks who are in the hardest things that, there can be these moments. 

Cyndie: I'm glad that you said that because I remember after my nephew died, feeling not just grieving him, but also feeling like, oh, for fuck's sake, Cyndie, you wrote a book about positive thinking and you can't be positive. 

Kate: Right? 

Cyndie: There was this real sense of a binary of it's either I should have asked, can I swear? I can swear here. Yeah, no, of course I can swear here. But so then you're holding this sort of shame on top of feeling like garbage because you can't feel good in that moment. And when I talk about this a lot, I'm, this is not a silver lining. This is simply holding very different feelings at one time. Because I think the opposite of that is really just unfortunate because then we start to feel guilty and we start to feel shameful about not being able to feel the way the internet tells us to feel, or how we perceive the internet telling us to feel in any particular moment, which is all or nothing. 

Doree: Cyndie, one of the things that I really appreciated about your book was how sort of actionable it is. After every essay you give suggestions for kind of exercises that people can do. And I really appreciated that because I think a lot of times people will read a book like this and be like, okay, but like, what do I do now? So I really like that you did that. So with that said, assuming most of our listeners have not read your book yet, could you just walk us through maybe one or two of those exercises that you know felt were maybe most impactful for you in terms of learning to find micro joys? And then I also just want to note that I especially appreciate these exercises because it sort of reinforces this idea that learning how to find micro joys is a practice. It's something that we need to do over and over again. Yeah. So anyway, sorry. Please, 

Cyndie: Yes. Nothing to be sorry for. So I'll start by saying that micro joys are really about honing the ability to access joy despite all else. And that despite all else pieces really important. So it's about accessing joy. There's not a recipe for micro joys. There is no recipe in this book for finding joy. Instead, there are many different ways based on my own lived experience that I have accessed joy. And one of the things that we talked about before we started recording was a store visit. There's an essay called The Spice Shop and the action really around this. And at the end of every essay it actually says, consider this is about choosing an ordinary place that we visit and be present for all of the experience. And that just means using your five senses. So walking into someplace that you ordinarily go and allow yourself to really be aware of what you see, the sounds that you hear, the things that you touch, your taste. I'm sure there's a fifth sense, I lost it, but it's in there. But the idea is really allowing yourself to be present. That space, you don't even have to leave your house. You can do it from being in your home, but when it comes to accessing joy and finding ways to access them in micro joys, it's really about what is already there. It's you not having to reach so far. It's what is directly in front of you in this moment that can offer you respite in the moments that you need it most. So think about where you are and allow yourself to be fully present for that experience. Because what it does is it pulls you into the moment in a way that very few things will, and to me, it almost gives you a bit of space between whatever else you are going through. So that's one way. 

Doree: As I was reading this, I was thinking about, I have a son who is almost four, and I was thinking about how seeing how he experiences the world has in a weird way, allowed me to have more micro joys because of the things he notices. We'll be walking, we'll be to school and he'll ask me to stop and smell the rosemary in someone's front yard. 

Cyndie: Oh my Goodness. 

Doree: I know. It's just like, ugh. Or he says hi to crows. I know he's just super sweet. And he notices these things that I've walked by this tree in our neighborhood a thousand times. And the other day he turned around and he said, mama, do you see how that tree is round? And he really wanted to talk about the tree. And I was like, yeah, I see it now. I had not noticed that before. You know what I mean? I think there is something about seeing things through a child's eyes that does allow you to experience these micro joys. And at the same time, having kids can sometimes make experiencing joys more difficult. So I'm wondering, as you say in the book, but and we can hold both of these things, but do you have any thoughts on how parents, especially parents of young children can I guess, welcome joys into their lives without these annoying platitudes of cherish every moment and all that? It goes so fast 

Cyndie: Good vibes only yall. 

Doree: Yeah. Oh, Good vibes only. ooh 

Cyndie: Good vibes only. Well, the first thing I want to acknowledge is I do not have children. I have cats. So you should never take parenting advice from people who do not have kids. But I'll say this, something that I have found incredibly helpful in my own life around all of this is the perpetual reminder that this two shall pass. No matter how good, no matter how tragic, everything will pass. And I talk a lot in the book about impermanence and how temporary fleeting everything is. And I think particularly as a parent with young children, sometimes I feel very much like it's about saying, yep, well that moment passed and it's okay. It's okay that I didn't do that one right thing in that moment. It's okay that I couldn't tap into my joy and that one right moment, it's also okay that I can walk with my four-year-old and recognize and see things through their eyes. So all of it is just this constant reminder of how temporary it is that it will pass, and you will find room for whatever it is you're hoping to create when you can. And that's it. 

Doree: Yes I really appreciate that response. So thank you. 

Kate: On that topic, you talk about this I think in all your work, but for our listeners, can you and for us, help us differentiate between this idea of finding joy and as you say, good vibes only toxic positivity, this kind of idea that just focus on the good and all that, that doesn't work for us. So how do you walk that line? 

Cyndie: I think the first thing is absolutely understanding that grief and joy coexist. This good vibes only mentality that drives me nuts is telling us all that there's only one way to feel. It's a binary. It's either this or it's that. So I think the very first step in all of it is just understanding that everything we feel the spectrum of emotions and lived experiences, they coexist. So there's a holding of space for both, where I think this culture of toxic positivity can sometimes make us feel as though it's one or the other. But very rarely do we hear about feeling both things or several things. At one time, I remember after my nephew was killed, it was maybe within a week, one of the things that brought me such deep joy was going through a photo album from when he was a kid. Now we're sitting there, I'm sitting there with my family and tears are streaming down our face, but we're just laughing. And we're sort of right back in that moment. Here's a picture of my nephew, and he was in kindergarten. 

Kate: Oh, sweet. 

Cyndie: And seeing that though, brought me such joy, but it didn't bring him back. It didn't change the hideousness of what happened, the tragedy of what happened. And that really to me is the difference is that micro, they give us permission to feel all of it and to not feel wrong If we're more on one part of that spectrum or one end of that spectrum than another. There's no guilt around it. There is guilt around good vibes only, even if it's unintentional. And I do believe it is, there's a lot of guilt when you can't feel the good vibes only. 

Kate: Yeah. Or just be positive or just look at the positive. I mean, there's so many, as Doree, as you said, just so many platitudes that are just ultimately not especially helpful and kind of push us into that guilty space of why can't I just find the good one, feel that way 

Doree: And can be toxic. 

Kate: Yeah. 

Cyndie: I think I would say not only is it not helpful, I think it's deeply harmful in the sense that to be in the midst of the hardest things and to have to take up brain space considering how this is going to be perceived, if I can't feel positive or if somebody tries to tell you, look on the bright side, or they're in a better place, that is incredibly harmful to the person who is experiencing that. 

Kate: And I think oftentimes these phrases don't take into consideration the systemic issues that can prevent people from having access to joy. Right. That that's completely missing from often these conversations. And you actually, it's not missing from the conversations that you have, which I really, really appreciate. I wanted to just touch on generational trauma because I think one of the most powerful things you talk about is how joy and micro joys are birthright and finding these and experiencing joy I is a real kind of connection to the legacy of our ancestors and a lot of the generational trauma that has been passed down and is still being passed down just by who we are and the families that we are in or the communities that we are in. So could you talk a little bit about that and what it means to find joy and thrive in a way that connects us to our ancestors? 

Cyndie: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. So when I think of joy as a birthright, and I think this is in the preface of the book, it was really important to me to not hide first and foremost who I am and how I got this way. And I talk in the book, I am a biracial black Jew. My mom is Eastern European, Jewish second generation and my father is African American, or was, well, he still is, but he's dead. And I jokingly will say to friends sometimes I'm like, folks been trying to kill us for a very long time and we are still standing. And that is the point in that aspect of the book where it's like, look, I come from people, the folks before me that have had to find ways to exist in a world that didn't necessarily want them to exist, whether it be via slavery or the Holocaust. It is my birthright to be here and experience joy. And I talk early on in the book about growing up quite poor. I didn't know that we were poor because we were loved and things were for the most part okay, it's oftentimes other people, when you include other people in this that you see the disparities and writing this book, something that it reminded me of was a black church. If you've ever been to a black church or a black funeral, now white people walk out of these and they're like, was that a party? Or was that church or was that, what was that? Cause there is music playing and there's stories being told. That to me is the core. It's the foundation of a micro joy. And that is in my dna, N right? It's this eternal sense of being able to tap into the thing that maybe other people don't understand. It's an optimism, given the circumstances that you have that are perhaps systemic or out of your control. It's the ability to find joy in ways that maybe only you can and not needing the outside, whatever that looks like to you, to understand that. And that's how I feel based on just the who I am, what my DNA is. My people have always had to find a way to do that, to hold both things. 

Kate: It's interesting too, because we've been experiencing, I think, and Doree, this is something you and I have talked about, such collective grief and trauma that is largely going undiscussed and ignored as we continue to move through this covid pandemic as well as so many other things that are happening in the world around us. And it kind of got me thinking about micro joys as communities or larger human collectives. Do you see that even just Rihanna performing last night in the Super Bowl and Rihanna sharing her pregnancy felt like something that we were all like, yay. Just even these kind of moments as look and let's acknowledge how problematic the Super Bowl is. All that aside anyway, I'm curious about what it looks like for us to have that connection as we process this collective grief. 

Cyndie: Something that I've really believed to be true. Now, of course, I wrote this book, so take this with a grain of salt, but I really do believe that we are in this spectacular moment right now. We have lost over a million people in the US alone to Covid, not including every personal loss that we've experienced in our lifetime. Nothing like this has ever happened. We are just trying. We're doing the thing that we humans do. We're just trying to move on. We're moving forward, we're moving forward, we're moving forward. We have to honor it as best we can. And this Joy Micro Joy is about holding that too. Holding systemic issues, holding racism, holding the pandemic and quarantine. It's holding all of these things alongside moments of beauty and grace, joy and collective happiness, the Super Bowl. And seeing that Rihanna was also announcing her pregnancy, sort of giving us the space. I think if the last few years, I think one of the things that it has offered us in spite of all else, is the innate understanding that we can't continue to hide our head in the sand about what is true. And so I think there is this collective moment happening that is hopefully granting folks a little bit of space around learning about being an existing and also finding joy there and really moving away from this binary of, you're right or you're wrong. Because that's a lot of what we've been into. If there's one way, and I do believe that we're moving into this space of holding all of it. And that's not on an individual level, but on a collective level. 

Kate: I hope so. 

Cyndie: I hope. 

Kate: Okay. Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Alright, we are back. 

Doree: I'd love to talk a little bit about what you write in your book about friendships. In particular two concepts. One, Freud and Freuda which as you write, is the opposite of Shot and Freuda. So instead of feeling joy at others' misfortune, you're feeling joy for others', joy. And then the other thing is this idea of, and please correct me if I'm kind of mischaracterizing this, but kind of what you wrote about little gifts and checking in with friends. And one of the things that I feel like I'm trying to move past as something that I was kind of raised on is this idea that everything has to be a tit for tat. And as you point out, it's really nice to just give someone a little gift. So I was hoping you could talk a little bit about how both of these concepts, the Freud and Freuda and these little gifts are checking in with people. How can we learn to flex that muscle? How can this become a practice, especially for those of us for whom this is very foreign? This is not something from our families of origin that we were taught. 

Cyndie: So I Freud and Frida is the opposite of Shot and Frida, which is when we are sort of happy at somebody else's misfortune. And I'd like to think of it as because I know someone is bound to say, well, I never feel good about someone's misfortune. And I'm like, if you watch fail videos and laugh, you're feeling good about somebody else's misfortune. We have ways of rewiring our brain to think that that's not what it is. But ultimately we are laughing at someone else's misfortune or we think they deserved it. Freud and Frida is the opposite. And the perfect representation of this that I could think of is if you are in the middle of a public place, let's say times Square, somebody gets on one knee and they get engaged, hopefully the other person says yes, but there's this collective sense of happiness, kind of like what we were just talking about a few moments ago with Rihanna announcing her pregnancy. It's this feeling of joy for other people's joy. We don't know Rihanna. I mean, I don't know Rihanna, I don't know the person getting engaged in the studio, I mean in a stadium or Times Square. But we know that feeling. The feeling when a child is laughing with delight at something that doesn't make any sense. We know that sort of swelling, that internal happiness that we feel that is Freud and Freuda, and I talk about gifting and how gifting is my love language and something I don't remember if my husband said someone said this to me. And it's always stuck. And essentially what it is, is I will never feel badly for being more generous rather than less. So when I'm in a difficult mood or just when I'm struggling, one of my ways of stepping outside of it is handwriting a note to a friend, picking up a little something. Now I just want to be clear. It's not about going and buying cars for people. It's small, thoughtful gifts, but it takes me out of my own stuff in that moment to peruse a store or a consignment shop or a Whole Foods and say, I want to get a little treat for my friend. I'm going to drop it in the mail. I'm not going to tell them it's coming. What ultimately happens is somebody picks up a phone, you call, you get to reconnect. Now all it was was a tiny thing, but it allows us to sort of borrow the joy of others when we can't quite find our own. And I find that consistently practicing these small acts build up almost a reserve. A reserve of these joys that we can tap into when we need them. And so gifting for me is a very important part of that. And I often gift in multiples and it's things I've acquired. It could be anything, but it's this idea of being generous and how it often comes back to us, even if that's not the intention. 

Doree: That makes a lot of sense. 

Kate: I love that. Yeah, I love that so much. Doree. 

Doree: Kate, I'm just going to start sending you little gifts all the time. 

Kate: No, but I was just going to say, I do feel like our friendship has that in action a lot of the time, and I really appreciate that 

Doree: Same, 

Kate: Thank you, Cyndie. Thanks. See, 

Cyndie: something I'd love to add to that is I have a friend who will randomly text me and he'll say, it's Wednesday. I just wanted to tell you how much you mean to us. That's another way of doing, you don't have to buy anything, you don't have to mail anything. But I mean, what a cool text is that it's Wednesday. I just want to tell you how much you mean to us. That is that sort of generosity. It's generosity and spirit that just continues to give. And do you know how I feel being the receiver of that message? Even if I don't respond back right away, I'm like, there's a little extra pep in my step. I feel good. So we're spreading that around in ways that we can. 

Kate: I love that. Well, you did offer to discuss skincare, and we do love, we do talk about skincare a lot. It was kind of the founding conversation we had on this podcast. So Cyndie, if you feel called to share your skincare practice or any products that you love or even just your journey as a person with skincare on a larger scale, we would love to hear all about it. 

Cyndie: Kate, I can talk to you about skincare for hours. So you've opened this door and it's your own fault. I'll say 

Kate: I'm excited to be here, 

Cyndie: I'm not loyal to any particular brand. I try lots of things, but I have a very long routine. So there are two things that I'm loyal to. One is coola sunblock because as a brown person, it doesn't make my skin white or gray. So coola Sunblock excellent. And there's a company called Pink Moon that makes a Gua sha oil that is like, you're not going to like this word. I don't know, maybe you will. I don't know you that well. It makes your skin really feel lubi. 

Kate: Ooh I like that word. 

Cyndie: I guess it makes me a little uncomfortable, but it moves up your skin in a nice way that feels plumping every day. I use, gosh, how many steps are there? I use rose face spray, the heritage. Do y'all know the heritage? 

Kate: Oh yes, yes. 

Cyndie: The Rose water and glycerin. Yeah, it's like $8. It comes in a giant bottle. It's the one with the glycerin. So I owe every day and night I use that. I will have one or two or three serums depend. I don't know that any of this is doing anything, but nonetheless, I have many serums. Then I will use a moisturizer of some sort. I have three jars currently open in a lot of backup. I will always use an eye cream and sometimes an eye serum. And then on top of that, I will use a face oil. And after one of the serums I'll Gua sha. I forgot to mention that. So there's a lot of skincare happening, and I think it's self care as much as it is actually doing any, I'm not sure it's doing anything for my skin, but it sure feels good. It takes me a while though. I will say that, and I have a similar version of that at nighttime. It's a lot. 

Kate: I love that. 

Cyndie: As I said, I have cats, I got cats, I have cats. 

Kate: But I like what we've talked a lot about skincare and our participation and beauty culture and what this all means and all these problematic things that we're still a part of, but also we like it because it feels good. And I think it's focusing on the ritual element, as you were mentioning earlier, the sensory experience can be really grounding and powerful. And those are the things that I think as I continue to examine my own participation and enjoyment of skincare is like that's where I want to keep leading myself. And I feel like ritual and the way it can nourish your physical and sensory experience, I think is really powerful. So I think that's what I hear you kind of getting at a little bit. 

Cyndie: And if this is a micro joy in and of itself, I think that really started for me in a very big way during the pandemic. Because we had so much free time. It's like, what am I going to do with all that? Couldn't go anywhere more so when we were still in quarantine where I just was doing a lot of face masks and all kinds of things, and it's, it stuck so alongside being isolated and alongside all of these other things happening in the world, somehow these rituals were started. So skincare for me is a big part of my world. 

Kate: Well, Cyndie, it's been such an absolute pleasure to get to talk to you. Micro Joys is, I should say, Micro Joys, finding hope, especially when life is not okay. I love that full title and it's just a wonderful, really special read that I think our listeners are going to love. That's out on the 28th of February. But can you also tell folks where else we can find you? 

Cyndie: Yes, you can find me on my website where I never hang out, but I am in fact there at least a picture also on Instagram. I'm there more than I want to be. And when I'm out and about on tour, please come visit if folks are anywhere in the tri-state area or in Palm Springs when I'll be there. 

Kate: Ooh, field trip. Ooh, maybe we need to take a little road trip. Yeah. Favorite place. 

Cyndie: I would not be mad. 

Kate: I love Palm Springs. 

Cyndie: Please do, Please do. 

Kate: Can't go wrong. 

Cyndie: Be great. 

Kate: Cyndie, thank you again. It was great to have you. 

Cyndie: Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you both. Thank you both. 

Doree: Well, that was fun to get to talk to her. 

Kate: I really appreciate this concept of a micro joy. 

Doree: Yes, yes. 

Kate: These small moments, that same, I feel like mean, we've talked about this, but I feel like I miss and how to train the eye, the mind's eye to experience those micro joys and appreciate them for what they are. 

Doree: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Kate, speaking of micro joys, 

Kate: Oh boy. 

Doree: How did your big medicine cabinet clean out go? 

Kate: I mean, it's been great for me. I have whittled down what I'm using on my products. It's very basic, and that's that. 

Doree: That's amazing. 

Kate: And my skin feels great, which is what I wanted because I tend to veer into dryness and flaky territory often. So I now have products that I have cleaned out that are half used that I'd like to give to friends who might want to try something or use something. So I need to go through that clean out process. But for me, streamlining what I am using and not giving myself 50 million options that flow onto my kitchen counter, not kitchen counter, my bathroom counter is really nice. And I will say, I think, as I have mentioned, the core brand of this is Vanna Cream, basically. Oh. I'm basically working through Vanna Cream products, Laroche Posay products and CeraVe products. That's where I'm at right now in my skincare product quest. And then my intention this week so we are recording a little bit ahead of schedule, so this will have already happened, but I'm traveling this coming week by myself for work. And when I travel, I tend to get one anxious about obviously contracting covid or other viruses. And then just travel is stressful. There's a lot that goes into it. So I'm just, I tend to do a lot of last minute buying of things that I don't actually need. So I'm trying to really be a conscientious traveler this week in terms of bringing what I need and only what I need, not overstressing and taking care of myself as best I can while I head out on a plane. 

Doree: I like that. 

Kate: How about you? Thank you. 

Doree: So last week I was going to finish my shoe clean out. I've made progress. I have not finished it, but I've made progress. I also did a bag clean out. 

Kate: I to want to hear more about this, if that's okay. 

Doree: Yeah. I'll tell you off the air. 

Kate: Okay, good. I hope so. 

Doree: That also feels really good. I do feel lighter. Yeah. So I'm really trying to be honest with myself about what I use and what I don't. 

Kate: It's hard because a lot of things we acquire are not, I mean, most of the things we acquire are not out of need, but out of some other desire. 

Doree: So totally. 

Kate: It's really examining a big chunk of our chunk of our psyche when we look at these. Look at items like this in our homes. Nice job, Doree. Does it feel good? It feels good to let those things go. 

Doree: It really does. Good. It really does. That's awesome. I brought some stuff to the Real Real, which has a location in LA where you can actually bring your stuff and you don't have to send it in. And when you bring in bags at the end, they give you the estimates and then you have to sign something, but then you don't have to leave your bags at that time. I think you have 30 days to accept the estimate or whatever. 

Kate: Oh, that's nice. 

Doree: And the handbag evaluator was like, do you want to sign now? Are you ready? Or do you want to think about it or what? And I was like, no, I have psychologically moved on from these bags. And she just laughed. She also pegged me as a Taurus. 

Kate: Really? 

Doree: Yes. That was wild. 

Kate: What? I was like, 

Doree: Did she see my date of birth somewhere? But I don't think she did. I know. 

Kate: That's crazy. 

Doree: Yeah. 

Kate: That's very impressive. Wow. 

Doree: I mentioned the podcast and we were talking about that and we were talking about self-care, and then she was like, what do you like to do for self-care? And I was like, honestly, I could get a massage every day. And she was like, are you a Taurus? 

Kate: Yep, I am. 

Doree: And I was like, how did you know? Taurus, sun and Moon baby. All right. 

Kate: You are a bull. A bulls bull. 

Doree: A Bulls bull. So this week I'm going to try to avoid bedtime creep. By which, I mean. 

Kate: Ugh, I know it. 

Doree: I've been going to bed a little bit late, and I think it is partly because I've been drinking coffee too late in the day, so I'm not tired until 1130, which is way too late for me. I should be lights out at 10 30, no later. 

Kate: I'm with you. And I've struggled with that. 

Doree: So even though right now I kind of wanted a cup of coffee, I'm not going to have one right now. It's work. It's almost 2 45 in the afternoon. We're recording this, but I need to think in the past, my caffeine cutoff was 3:00 PM and then I went a couple years without drinking any caffeine when I was pregnant. And then after that, I stopped drinking caffeine. And I only went back to it. I went back to it the week that Matt had Covid and I had to turn in my book. I was like, and I was taking care of Henry by myself. I was like, that was a rough week. I need caffeine. And then it was like I was off to the races anyway, but I think in my head I was still like, oh, I can drink caffeine until three, but I'm now older. I have a child. My life is different. And I don't think I can drink caffeine until three o'clock. I think 1:00 PM needs to be my cough and I need to be. And here's the other thing where, here's the other mind game I've been playing with myself is there have been times when I've made a cup of coffee at three, or I've bought a coffee at three, and then I'm like sipping it till four. And that's way too late. So I need to be done drinking the coffee by 1:00 PM. This is my new rule for myself, and I think that will help me avoid the bedtime creep. Whew. Wow. I just said a lot more about that than I intended to, but 

Kate: good work. 

Doree: Thank you. 

Kate: Its that coffee. 

Doree: Well, Kate, this has been fun and I just want to remind everyone that Forever35 is hosted and produced by me, Doree Shafrir, and you, Kate Spencer, and produced and edited by Sam Junio. Sami Reed is our project manager and our network partner is Acast. Bye everybody. 

Kate: Bye.